1 00:00:06,600 --> 00:00:08,200 Speaker 1: Hey, want to walk a bit. I'm Doug Gottlieb. 2 00:00:08,280 --> 00:00:12,280 Speaker 2: This is All Ball. Roland Lazarie's my guest. He's written 3 00:00:12,280 --> 00:00:19,280 Speaker 2: a new book about Magic Johnson. Magic Johnson. I'm excited 4 00:00:19,320 --> 00:00:23,040 Speaker 2: because you know, I grew up in southern California. My 5 00:00:23,120 --> 00:00:28,120 Speaker 2: family moved there in nineteen eighty one and was basically 6 00:00:28,160 --> 00:00:30,240 Speaker 2: around for the entire Yeah, we were off for the 7 00:00:30,240 --> 00:00:34,320 Speaker 2: whole Showtime era, and it concluded really with Magic Johnson's 8 00:00:34,360 --> 00:00:38,479 Speaker 2: announcement that he contracted HIV, which kind of brings me 9 00:00:38,520 --> 00:00:43,000 Speaker 2: to how I get into this, this version of All Ball. 10 00:00:43,760 --> 00:00:46,640 Speaker 2: And when you think of the places you're what you 11 00:00:46,720 --> 00:00:49,800 Speaker 2: were when things happened, where were you in Magic announced 12 00:00:49,840 --> 00:00:53,240 Speaker 2: he at HIV? It was about this time of year surely. 13 00:00:53,240 --> 00:00:56,880 Speaker 2: Actually before the season began, I was at Tustin High School. 14 00:00:57,480 --> 00:00:59,680 Speaker 2: And the way it works in southern California in high 15 00:00:59,680 --> 00:01:04,600 Speaker 2: school basketball is until you have till practices start, you 16 00:01:04,640 --> 00:01:07,640 Speaker 2: have sixth period. Your final period of the day is 17 00:01:07,680 --> 00:01:11,640 Speaker 2: your pe is your basketball class. So it becomes like 18 00:01:11,640 --> 00:01:14,760 Speaker 2: at the facto practice, but it's just not considered practice 19 00:01:14,760 --> 00:01:17,280 Speaker 2: time and you only have the time of whatever your 20 00:01:17,319 --> 00:01:20,800 Speaker 2: class schedule is. Right, And I'll never forget that we 21 00:01:20,880 --> 00:01:24,160 Speaker 2: had a team meeting on the court and my coaches 22 00:01:24,360 --> 00:01:25,400 Speaker 2: before my freshman year. 23 00:01:25,560 --> 00:01:27,600 Speaker 1: My coach was a man named Tom McCluskey. 24 00:01:27,959 --> 00:01:30,360 Speaker 2: Tommy was the head coach the year before when they 25 00:01:30,360 --> 00:01:33,520 Speaker 2: won the state championship. He played for Dick Hard at 26 00:01:33,720 --> 00:01:38,040 Speaker 2: Penn State. It's a big dude, about six seven six eight. 27 00:01:38,400 --> 00:01:42,040 Speaker 2: Incredible coach and also really about the kind of life. 28 00:01:41,840 --> 00:01:44,160 Speaker 1: Lessons you learn in sports. 29 00:01:45,040 --> 00:01:48,120 Speaker 2: And I mean, I justticularly remember it to this day 30 00:01:48,560 --> 00:01:52,880 Speaker 2: that he called us all in to sit on the 31 00:01:52,920 --> 00:01:57,760 Speaker 2: court and he said, boys, in about a half hour, 32 00:01:57,800 --> 00:02:00,000 Speaker 2: there's going to be a press conference with the Lakers. 33 00:02:00,280 --> 00:02:01,880 Speaker 1: Magic Johnson is going to retire. 34 00:02:02,360 --> 00:02:05,920 Speaker 2: And we were just like all stunned because you remember, 35 00:02:06,240 --> 00:02:09,240 Speaker 2: this is Magic Johnson and though he wasn't at his peak. 36 00:02:11,280 --> 00:02:12,880 Speaker 2: They had just come off the NBA Finals, but they 37 00:02:12,919 --> 00:02:16,040 Speaker 2: got beat four games to one by the Chicago Bulls. 38 00:02:17,840 --> 00:02:20,920 Speaker 2: So this is really and and back then in the NBA, 39 00:02:21,680 --> 00:02:24,640 Speaker 2: you know, outside of the Olympics, the next the following summer, 40 00:02:25,480 --> 00:02:28,320 Speaker 2: you didn't really hear from NBA players in the offseason, 41 00:02:29,360 --> 00:02:32,680 Speaker 2: and the Bulls won. It was Michael Jordan's first championship. 42 00:02:32,840 --> 00:02:35,240 Speaker 2: It became about Jordan it became about him taking over 43 00:02:35,240 --> 00:02:37,560 Speaker 2: the league. And it wasn't that you didn't think about 44 00:02:37,600 --> 00:02:40,520 Speaker 2: Magic Johnson. But you weren't really thinking about Magic Johnson. 45 00:02:41,520 --> 00:02:44,440 Speaker 2: It's not like the daily drama you have these days, 46 00:02:44,480 --> 00:02:49,120 Speaker 2: when lots of reagent player movement, guys forcing trades. All 47 00:02:49,200 --> 00:02:52,680 Speaker 2: that didn't simply didn't exist. Yeah, the NBA Draft and 48 00:02:52,720 --> 00:02:56,280 Speaker 2: then I don't know you'd see them in the in 49 00:02:56,320 --> 00:03:02,120 Speaker 2: the preseason. That was basically it. So Magic Johnson's going 50 00:03:02,160 --> 00:03:04,760 Speaker 2: to retire. Those words kind of hung for a couple 51 00:03:04,800 --> 00:03:08,400 Speaker 2: of seconds, but he's going to retire because he's contracted 52 00:03:08,560 --> 00:03:12,760 Speaker 2: something called HIV. And then I remember him saying which 53 00:03:12,800 --> 00:03:15,960 Speaker 2: eventually leads to eights, which means he's going to die. 54 00:03:16,639 --> 00:03:20,920 Speaker 2: It's from unprotected sex. And you know, this is a 55 00:03:20,960 --> 00:03:25,360 Speaker 2: real thing. You need to discuss with your parents what 56 00:03:25,440 --> 00:03:30,640 Speaker 2: all these things mean. But you know, just know, I 57 00:03:30,680 --> 00:03:33,120 Speaker 2: know a lot of you guys love watching Magic play. 58 00:03:33,120 --> 00:03:36,400 Speaker 2: I love watching Magic play. He's not gonna play basketball anymore, 59 00:03:37,200 --> 00:03:41,480 Speaker 2: and you know, it's it's really really sad, and this 60 00:03:41,720 --> 00:03:45,200 Speaker 2: disease is really really scary, and you guys have to 61 00:03:45,280 --> 00:03:47,080 Speaker 2: understand the world and which you live in, how to 62 00:03:47,080 --> 00:03:49,800 Speaker 2: protect yourself from so you guys want to take five 63 00:03:49,840 --> 00:03:56,280 Speaker 2: minutes and catch your breath. Anyway, there's guys crying. I 64 00:03:56,280 --> 00:04:00,160 Speaker 2: remember our best player was a senior named Gentry More 65 00:04:00,280 --> 00:04:03,240 Speaker 2: signed the letter of intend to go to TCU, and 66 00:04:03,440 --> 00:04:06,920 Speaker 2: Gentry was he was a mess. And then we practiced 67 00:04:06,920 --> 00:04:08,200 Speaker 2: for a little bit, and then we went into his 68 00:04:08,240 --> 00:04:11,000 Speaker 2: office and watched the press conference and then wiped away tears, 69 00:04:11,120 --> 00:04:12,160 Speaker 2: practiced some more. 70 00:04:12,560 --> 00:04:15,720 Speaker 1: So was a really kind of emotional day. But I'll 71 00:04:15,720 --> 00:04:16,720 Speaker 1: contend with you this. 72 00:04:16,760 --> 00:04:20,200 Speaker 2: And I'll put out another pod here in the next 73 00:04:20,240 --> 00:04:22,320 Speaker 2: day or two and I'll kind of run down all 74 00:04:22,320 --> 00:04:26,840 Speaker 2: the different basketball stuff because the Lakers just beat the Suns, 75 00:04:27,120 --> 00:04:29,799 Speaker 2: and there's some really good stuff going on with the Lakers, 76 00:04:29,839 --> 00:04:32,039 Speaker 2: despite the fact that they had lost every road game. 77 00:04:32,839 --> 00:04:36,839 Speaker 2: The Sun's still not healthy. The Clippers complete mess since 78 00:04:36,839 --> 00:04:41,160 Speaker 2: the hard and trade. Uh Luca put on a performance 79 00:04:41,160 --> 00:04:44,240 Speaker 2: for the Ages twenty one shots and he had what 80 00:04:44,360 --> 00:04:45,800 Speaker 2: forty six points or something. 81 00:04:46,000 --> 00:04:47,839 Speaker 1: It's just great. It's just crazy that guy can do. 82 00:04:48,000 --> 00:04:50,200 Speaker 2: And then of course you got college basketball where Arizona 83 00:04:50,240 --> 00:04:51,320 Speaker 2: beats Duke at Duke. 84 00:04:51,480 --> 00:04:53,080 Speaker 1: More of those games plays. 85 00:04:54,800 --> 00:04:58,120 Speaker 2: Baylor looked amazing in their comeback win against Auburn, but 86 00:04:58,680 --> 00:05:03,600 Speaker 2: as we roll into basketball season and with Lebron James 87 00:05:03,600 --> 00:05:07,000 Speaker 2: continuing to play and star and be a you know, 88 00:05:07,080 --> 00:05:11,200 Speaker 2: probably a top twenty, top fifteen maybe player in the 89 00:05:11,320 --> 00:05:16,719 Speaker 2: NBA at thirty nine years old. Lost in the greatest 90 00:05:16,720 --> 00:05:18,919 Speaker 2: of all time debates somehow is Maggie Johnson. 91 00:05:20,240 --> 00:05:25,840 Speaker 1: I granted, he didn't play as long as Lebron, and 92 00:05:25,880 --> 00:05:29,599 Speaker 1: he didn't play as long as as Michael Jordan, but 93 00:05:30,960 --> 00:05:35,360 Speaker 1: all the NBA titles, the MVPs, he changed, the sport, 94 00:05:35,680 --> 00:05:41,080 Speaker 1: changed the position. He's I believe, considered a billionaire. He's 95 00:05:41,279 --> 00:05:45,240 Speaker 1: like what Lebron would have been like had Lebron come 96 00:05:45,279 --> 00:05:48,520 Speaker 1: out in that era. That makes sense and when you 97 00:05:48,640 --> 00:05:50,160 Speaker 1: run in Dominata. 98 00:05:49,680 --> 00:05:53,159 Speaker 2: League as well as well. First you say he built 99 00:05:53,200 --> 00:05:56,839 Speaker 2: up college basketball. Remember the most watched college basketball National 100 00:05:56,880 --> 00:05:58,880 Speaker 2: Championship game of all time as Bird versus Magic. 101 00:05:59,120 --> 00:06:01,880 Speaker 1: That allowed the sport to kind of breakout. 102 00:06:02,839 --> 00:06:05,200 Speaker 2: So I don't know if he saved or fixed or 103 00:06:05,240 --> 00:06:09,520 Speaker 2: started March Madness, but he deserves credit, so does Larry Bird, 104 00:06:09,760 --> 00:06:13,200 Speaker 2: and by most accounts, he saved the NBA along with 105 00:06:13,320 --> 00:06:17,960 Speaker 2: Larry Bird. The dynamic of white versus Black, East versus West, 106 00:06:18,240 --> 00:06:21,200 Speaker 2: you know, slow and steady versus playing fast, all these 107 00:06:21,240 --> 00:06:24,280 Speaker 2: different all these different things at play for a time. 108 00:06:24,320 --> 00:06:28,680 Speaker 2: And remember this is during the Magic Bird and then 109 00:06:28,839 --> 00:06:32,719 Speaker 2: Michael Era, the NBA was actually king how how we 110 00:06:33,040 --> 00:06:36,600 Speaker 2: view football in terms of dominating sports on TV was 111 00:06:36,640 --> 00:06:41,360 Speaker 2: how we viewed the NBA back then. Obviously, the advent 112 00:06:41,400 --> 00:06:47,360 Speaker 2: of fantasy football, proliferation of gambling, honestly, probably the proliferation 113 00:06:47,400 --> 00:06:50,320 Speaker 2: of basketball on TV we get maybe too much now 114 00:06:51,520 --> 00:06:54,440 Speaker 2: has watered down the product, water down the ratings, and 115 00:06:54,520 --> 00:07:00,320 Speaker 2: football has caught passed, even boat raced the NBA. But 116 00:07:00,440 --> 00:07:05,920 Speaker 2: to give true context to how big Magic was is 117 00:07:05,960 --> 00:07:08,480 Speaker 2: to tell you that when he announced his retirement due 118 00:07:08,520 --> 00:07:14,080 Speaker 2: to HIV, he was the significant superstar in the world 119 00:07:14,640 --> 00:07:18,920 Speaker 2: that brought it to the forefront. Because previous to Magic. 120 00:07:19,000 --> 00:07:20,840 Speaker 1: HIV was seen as a gay an's disease. 121 00:07:21,000 --> 00:07:26,160 Speaker 2: It wasn't anything that people discussed at length in high schools. 122 00:07:26,200 --> 00:07:26,760 Speaker 1: Just wasn't. 123 00:07:27,200 --> 00:07:31,120 Speaker 2: And in my lifetime, the poignant moments that made me 124 00:07:31,200 --> 00:07:38,160 Speaker 2: really think and understand adult things len Bias dying after 125 00:07:38,480 --> 00:07:43,600 Speaker 2: using cocaine, I would say, obviously Magic Johnson and then 126 00:07:43,920 --> 00:07:47,880 Speaker 2: probably Jason Williams with the gun stuff at his house 127 00:07:47,920 --> 00:07:51,000 Speaker 2: in New Jersey. There's been some you know, maybe plexico 128 00:07:51,040 --> 00:07:54,680 Speaker 2: bursts in terms of guns can go off and how 129 00:07:54,680 --> 00:07:57,880 Speaker 2: the legal guns are and all the different elements to it. 130 00:07:58,120 --> 00:08:03,760 Speaker 1: But Magic the player. He is one that you can't 131 00:08:03,920 --> 00:08:06,080 Speaker 1: really describe. 132 00:08:06,760 --> 00:08:10,840 Speaker 2: The presence that he had because now I think if 133 00:08:10,840 --> 00:08:13,320 Speaker 2: you're you know, if you're thirty five or younger, you 134 00:08:13,360 --> 00:08:15,080 Speaker 2: see some of the passes and he thought like, well 135 00:08:15,120 --> 00:08:17,480 Speaker 2: that was it, Like he was a fancy passer on 136 00:08:17,520 --> 00:08:22,040 Speaker 2: the fast break. Nah. He had this mix of pinache presence. 137 00:08:22,840 --> 00:08:26,239 Speaker 2: He hid big shots, and he did it all despite 138 00:08:26,240 --> 00:08:28,400 Speaker 2: the fact that while he was big and way bigger 139 00:08:28,400 --> 00:08:31,440 Speaker 2: than anyone who had played his position previously, he wasn't 140 00:08:31,520 --> 00:08:34,320 Speaker 2: crazy athletics, but he always got to where he needed 141 00:08:34,320 --> 00:08:37,360 Speaker 2: to get to. Maybe though he had a weird kind 142 00:08:37,360 --> 00:08:39,320 Speaker 2: of push shot and began as a non shooter. 143 00:08:39,440 --> 00:08:40,760 Speaker 1: By the end of his career, he is a very 144 00:08:40,800 --> 00:08:41,240 Speaker 1: good shoot. 145 00:08:42,600 --> 00:08:45,680 Speaker 2: He always seemed to be able to get things done 146 00:08:45,880 --> 00:08:47,280 Speaker 2: in spite of whatever his weaknesses. 147 00:08:48,520 --> 00:08:51,160 Speaker 1: But more than anything, he had a presence. You know. 148 00:08:51,200 --> 00:08:53,520 Speaker 2: A couple of years later later he was going to 149 00:08:53,559 --> 00:08:55,800 Speaker 2: come back with the Lakers. And when he came back 150 00:08:55,840 --> 00:08:57,480 Speaker 2: with the Lakers, he was playing in their preseason. I 151 00:08:57,520 --> 00:09:01,640 Speaker 2: remember we went to the before it was the it 152 00:09:01,679 --> 00:09:03,839 Speaker 2: was the Fabulous Forum. That was a great Midwest Forum. 153 00:09:03,880 --> 00:09:06,480 Speaker 2: We went to the Forum to see this. It was 154 00:09:06,520 --> 00:09:10,000 Speaker 2: a preseason doubleheader. It's called like the Great Midwest Shootout. 155 00:09:10,880 --> 00:09:15,079 Speaker 2: And I think it was like the Kings, the Clippers, 156 00:09:16,400 --> 00:09:17,679 Speaker 2: the Warriors. 157 00:09:17,160 --> 00:09:20,920 Speaker 1: And the Lakers. And then don't hold me to that. 158 00:09:20,920 --> 00:09:22,480 Speaker 2: It may have been one of the other Western teams, 159 00:09:22,480 --> 00:09:24,520 Speaker 2: but maybe the Super Sonics instead of the Clippers. 160 00:09:24,640 --> 00:09:26,160 Speaker 1: But how I remember it. 161 00:09:26,160 --> 00:09:29,040 Speaker 2: Was the Lakers would play the Warriors one night and 162 00:09:29,040 --> 00:09:30,720 Speaker 2: play the Kings the next night. It was like a 163 00:09:30,760 --> 00:09:33,400 Speaker 2: way of playing preseason games and saving some money. 164 00:09:33,520 --> 00:09:34,680 Speaker 1: And putting them all on one build. 165 00:09:35,920 --> 00:09:39,000 Speaker 2: And after the first game, the Lakers came out and 166 00:09:39,960 --> 00:09:41,640 Speaker 2: everybody from the Lakers was warming. 167 00:09:41,440 --> 00:09:44,600 Speaker 1: Up, and then Magic took the court and it was 168 00:09:45,679 --> 00:09:46,320 Speaker 1: it was Magic. 169 00:09:47,520 --> 00:09:50,280 Speaker 2: He just had a way of playing where you couldn't 170 00:09:50,400 --> 00:09:53,560 Speaker 2: ever get up and go get popcorn because you thought 171 00:09:53,600 --> 00:09:54,520 Speaker 2: you were going to miss something. 172 00:09:54,960 --> 00:09:56,720 Speaker 1: All right, let's get to this podcast. Roll ask me. 173 00:09:56,720 --> 00:10:00,000 Speaker 2: He's an incredible author. I don't need to go through 174 00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:03,040 Speaker 2: all his books. Here's my discussion with him in regards 175 00:10:03,080 --> 00:10:07,200 Speaker 2: to his new Magic Johnson book. Roland, thanks so much 176 00:10:07,240 --> 00:10:10,200 Speaker 2: for taking time with me. What Triger, do you to 177 00:10:10,200 --> 00:10:10,840 Speaker 2: write this book? 178 00:10:12,880 --> 00:10:15,320 Speaker 3: You know, it was one I wanted to do earlier. 179 00:10:15,520 --> 00:10:22,760 Speaker 3: The publishing industry is also into analytics like everything else, 180 00:10:23,280 --> 00:10:27,400 Speaker 3: especially sports, and they weren't sure about the analytics on 181 00:10:27,480 --> 00:10:30,319 Speaker 3: this one. I obviously, I did Michael Jordan of Life 182 00:10:30,320 --> 00:10:34,640 Speaker 3: for Little Brown, and they preferred Kobe over Magic, and 183 00:10:34,720 --> 00:10:37,559 Speaker 3: I was happy because I'd spent a lot of time 184 00:10:37,600 --> 00:10:42,920 Speaker 3: with Kobe, and so both of those books been really 185 00:10:42,960 --> 00:10:49,079 Speaker 3: successful globally too. But I switched to McMillan and they 186 00:10:49,120 --> 00:10:53,400 Speaker 3: were eager to do Magic when I proposed it. And 187 00:10:54,120 --> 00:10:57,640 Speaker 3: you know, Magic's one of the great great stories. He 188 00:10:58,480 --> 00:11:01,120 Speaker 3: changed so many things about the game. 189 00:11:02,640 --> 00:11:06,280 Speaker 2: He did, and it's really interesting. I'm old enough, and 190 00:11:06,280 --> 00:11:08,560 Speaker 2: obviously you're older than me, but I'm old enough to 191 00:11:09,400 --> 00:11:15,920 Speaker 2: understand the dynamic of Magic Johnson. He changed college basketball, right, 192 00:11:16,559 --> 00:11:21,079 Speaker 2: I mean, college basketball's popularity is directly related to Magic Johnson. 193 00:11:21,600 --> 00:11:26,040 Speaker 2: The NBA's popularity is directly related to Magic Johnny. And 194 00:11:26,080 --> 00:11:31,960 Speaker 2: it's interesting because up until recently he's kind of done 195 00:11:31,960 --> 00:11:32,959 Speaker 2: the aw shucks thing. 196 00:11:33,160 --> 00:11:33,319 Speaker 3: Right. 197 00:11:33,760 --> 00:11:41,200 Speaker 2: He called Kobe the greatest Laker, which it's just not true. 198 00:11:41,760 --> 00:11:47,880 Speaker 2: He's he doesn't insert himself into the greatest player of 199 00:11:47,920 --> 00:11:53,199 Speaker 2: all time discussion, which he absolutely should be. And I 200 00:11:53,280 --> 00:11:55,520 Speaker 2: think it's really smart, right because to those of us 201 00:11:55,559 --> 00:11:58,439 Speaker 2: who truly understand the dynamic of human nature, usually it 202 00:11:58,440 --> 00:12:00,880 Speaker 2: should be you don't say though things, you let other 203 00:12:00,920 --> 00:12:01,920 Speaker 2: people say those things. 204 00:12:02,520 --> 00:12:02,800 Speaker 3: Right. 205 00:12:03,240 --> 00:12:07,400 Speaker 2: The problem is that time not really on his side, right, 206 00:12:07,520 --> 00:12:11,880 Speaker 2: and this generation didn't see him play. How do you 207 00:12:12,000 --> 00:12:16,319 Speaker 2: think Magic really feels about his own contributions to the game. 208 00:12:17,360 --> 00:12:22,000 Speaker 3: Oh, I think that he feels his style of play, 209 00:12:22,640 --> 00:12:29,200 Speaker 3: his approach to the game isn't valued as much anymore. 210 00:12:29,320 --> 00:12:35,400 Speaker 3: I think that he's a guy that probably you know, 211 00:12:38,000 --> 00:12:41,160 Speaker 3: he's been competing with Michael Jordan for a long time now, 212 00:12:41,160 --> 00:12:46,280 Speaker 3: they're still competing furiously. Michael just reached a three billion 213 00:12:46,360 --> 00:12:51,160 Speaker 3: dollar level in wealth. Magic cross the billion dollar line. 214 00:12:51,840 --> 00:12:54,920 Speaker 3: You know. Magic's had to work furiously to get that billion, 215 00:12:55,160 --> 00:12:58,720 Speaker 3: and Michael's works some He's done a lot of smart 216 00:12:58,720 --> 00:13:02,679 Speaker 3: things made smart and vestments. But you know, the Nike 217 00:13:02,840 --> 00:13:09,600 Speaker 3: deal he got was the game changer there, and so 218 00:13:09,840 --> 00:13:14,360 Speaker 3: Magic is still hungry. He has things to prove. He 219 00:13:14,720 --> 00:13:20,200 Speaker 3: has learned that you can't prove them all by saying 220 00:13:20,320 --> 00:13:23,719 Speaker 3: things about yourself, you know, but he is at that 221 00:13:24,040 --> 00:13:26,320 Speaker 3: level where he's willing to remind people. 222 00:13:26,400 --> 00:13:31,640 Speaker 2: Now he started recently. It's a recent trend which I 223 00:13:31,679 --> 00:13:35,840 Speaker 2: really actually really like because I know it to be true. Right, 224 00:13:36,679 --> 00:13:39,600 Speaker 2: So you decide to write this, the analytics said, Kobe, 225 00:13:40,160 --> 00:13:42,880 Speaker 2: you finally get the green light. What's the process like 226 00:13:43,559 --> 00:13:46,199 Speaker 2: of compiling all these interviews and talking to people and 227 00:13:46,200 --> 00:13:46,920 Speaker 2: putting this together? 228 00:13:47,840 --> 00:13:51,960 Speaker 3: Well, you know it's Pete Noule told me years ago. 229 00:13:52,040 --> 00:13:56,280 Speaker 3: I did a Jerry West biography for ESPN Books in 230 00:13:56,320 --> 00:14:01,200 Speaker 3: two thy and ten, and years before Newell had told 231 00:14:01,200 --> 00:14:05,600 Speaker 3: me that if I wanted to understand Jerry West, I 232 00:14:05,760 --> 00:14:12,000 Speaker 3: really had to understand West Virginia. And Pete Noule got 233 00:14:12,080 --> 00:14:15,960 Speaker 3: my attention. You know, I went really deep into the 234 00:14:16,080 --> 00:14:21,440 Speaker 3: Jerry West background and discovered an amazing story there. I 235 00:14:21,520 --> 00:14:24,880 Speaker 3: did the same, attempted to do the same with Michael 236 00:14:25,560 --> 00:14:28,440 Speaker 3: Michael Jordan books now in twenty one languages. It just 237 00:14:28,480 --> 00:14:34,840 Speaker 3: came out in Portuguese and he is a global, global guy, 238 00:14:35,320 --> 00:14:41,480 Speaker 3: and Kobe twelve languages. You know, American basketball couldn't get 239 00:14:41,520 --> 00:14:48,359 Speaker 3: anybody's attention for decades, and here comes magic, here comes Larry. 240 00:14:49,120 --> 00:14:51,680 Speaker 3: You know, the ratings in the NBA have just fallen 241 00:14:51,880 --> 00:14:58,000 Speaker 3: twenty five percent in one year for regular season TV games, 242 00:14:58,520 --> 00:15:03,040 Speaker 3: and those guys, you know, it wasn't some grand introduction. 243 00:15:03,640 --> 00:15:07,480 Speaker 3: The teams were losing money, but they the way they 244 00:15:07,520 --> 00:15:12,200 Speaker 3: played was something different and it got everybody's attention. And 245 00:15:12,440 --> 00:15:18,280 Speaker 3: suddenly here comes David Stern. He's thinking big, no more 246 00:15:18,400 --> 00:15:23,160 Speaker 3: that small, thinking of the past. And then the Dream Team, 247 00:15:23,640 --> 00:15:26,960 Speaker 3: then the Magic Johnson all stars all over the place, 248 00:15:27,320 --> 00:15:32,000 Speaker 3: and American basketball is ridiculous in its global reach. 249 00:15:32,120 --> 00:15:35,200 Speaker 2: Now you said, the most important thing we're writing the 250 00:15:35,280 --> 00:15:38,800 Speaker 2: Jerry Westbrook is get to know West Virginia. So when 251 00:15:38,840 --> 00:15:41,320 Speaker 2: you're writing on Magic Johnson, what do you have to 252 00:15:41,360 --> 00:15:44,080 Speaker 2: get to know to know Magic Johnson. 253 00:15:44,640 --> 00:15:50,200 Speaker 3: Well, it's a perfect comparison because Michael Jordan's mother, who 254 00:15:50,280 --> 00:15:54,560 Speaker 3: came off the coastal plain of North Carolina out of 255 00:15:54,600 --> 00:15:59,960 Speaker 3: that abysmal sharecropping culture that had trapped so many fans 256 00:16:00,000 --> 00:16:07,520 Speaker 3: families black and white. Well, Michael's mother and Magic's mother, 257 00:16:07,720 --> 00:16:11,720 Speaker 3: she too came out of that sharecropping culture. And these 258 00:16:11,720 --> 00:16:17,480 Speaker 3: are two women who in their own ways are really determined. 259 00:16:17,560 --> 00:16:22,119 Speaker 3: And so I had to get to understand North Carolina 260 00:16:22,240 --> 00:16:26,360 Speaker 3: really well. I thought I had with my Michael Jordan book, 261 00:16:26,520 --> 00:16:29,440 Speaker 3: but I was really able to get a lot of 262 00:16:29,960 --> 00:16:35,280 Speaker 3: much deeper background. And you know, Magic was such a 263 00:16:35,280 --> 00:16:39,160 Speaker 3: big thing in Michael's life, and so the parallel between 264 00:16:39,200 --> 00:16:43,400 Speaker 3: those two sort of continued from looking at that background 265 00:16:43,880 --> 00:16:54,640 Speaker 3: looking at their families. In a sense, Michael Jordan was 266 00:16:54,960 --> 00:16:59,960 Speaker 3: very obscure as a teenager. Magic Johnson, on the other hand, 267 00:17:00,720 --> 00:17:06,560 Speaker 3: in different ways, was man. He was He had a 268 00:17:06,600 --> 00:17:11,360 Speaker 3: lot of power at age fifteen, an amazing amount of power, 269 00:17:11,400 --> 00:17:14,399 Speaker 3: and he was by then his family. Of course, he 270 00:17:14,520 --> 00:17:19,760 Speaker 3: was born in Lansing, Michigan. He happened along right as 271 00:17:20,520 --> 00:17:23,880 Speaker 3: they were doing all of the bussing for racial integration, 272 00:17:24,960 --> 00:17:27,760 Speaker 3: and he ended up right smack dab in the middle 273 00:17:27,800 --> 00:17:32,600 Speaker 3: of that. But the main thing about in regards to basketball, 274 00:17:33,240 --> 00:17:36,439 Speaker 3: the main thing that I try to do is to 275 00:17:36,600 --> 00:17:41,960 Speaker 3: sort of find the organic player Kobe. I wanted to 276 00:17:42,000 --> 00:17:44,199 Speaker 3: find the organic Kobe because there were a lot of 277 00:17:44,240 --> 00:17:50,960 Speaker 3: misconceptions about him. Michael's organic nature was pretty much on display. 278 00:17:51,560 --> 00:17:55,800 Speaker 3: But Magic, you know, he's got the big smile, he's 279 00:17:56,680 --> 00:18:01,639 Speaker 3: passing out assists. But that dude was a control free 280 00:18:01,680 --> 00:18:05,480 Speaker 3: from an early age. His high school teammate, who became 281 00:18:05,520 --> 00:18:08,399 Speaker 3: his best man, Dale Beard, told me, he said, you 282 00:18:08,440 --> 00:18:12,520 Speaker 3: know I couldn't play my game with Magic. I had 283 00:18:12,560 --> 00:18:16,280 Speaker 3: to play the way he wanted me to play, or 284 00:18:16,440 --> 00:18:21,720 Speaker 3: I wasn't going to play. And Magic didn't just control 285 00:18:21,840 --> 00:18:29,239 Speaker 3: his teammates, he controlled his coaches. And that is that 286 00:18:29,359 --> 00:18:32,120 Speaker 3: is a determined teenager to accomplish that. 287 00:18:34,119 --> 00:18:39,520 Speaker 2: It's fascinating because I grew up in Los Angeles a 288 00:18:39,560 --> 00:18:41,960 Speaker 2: gigantic Magic fan. It wasn't a Laker fan. It was 289 00:18:41,960 --> 00:18:45,879 Speaker 2: a Magic and I was the coach's son. I was 290 00:18:45,880 --> 00:18:50,119 Speaker 2: a pastor spoint guard. And what I learned at what 291 00:18:50,240 --> 00:18:52,080 Speaker 2: my college got. I played for coach Eddie Sutton at 292 00:18:52,080 --> 00:18:55,240 Speaker 2: Oklhada State, right, and one time he said to me, like, 293 00:18:55,280 --> 00:18:59,160 Speaker 2: you're the most selfish, unselfish player in the history of basketball. 294 00:19:00,359 --> 00:19:02,480 Speaker 2: And I was like offended by it because he said, 295 00:19:02,480 --> 00:19:04,840 Speaker 2: you know, all you want to do is play for assists. 296 00:19:05,320 --> 00:19:10,160 Speaker 2: And the truth is that in anyone's normal processing line 297 00:19:10,160 --> 00:19:13,040 Speaker 2: of thinking, you're like, how could assist ever be bad? 298 00:19:13,680 --> 00:19:13,840 Speaker 1: Right? 299 00:19:13,840 --> 00:19:16,600 Speaker 2: How could creating a shot for a teammate to look 300 00:19:16,600 --> 00:19:19,719 Speaker 2: good ever be bad? But the control element of it 301 00:19:19,800 --> 00:19:23,200 Speaker 2: and the desire to be the guy who grants your 302 00:19:23,240 --> 00:19:28,719 Speaker 2: teammate this incredible opportunity, that's a real thing. And that's magic. 303 00:19:29,000 --> 00:19:29,160 Speaker 3: Right. 304 00:19:29,520 --> 00:19:33,600 Speaker 2: He famously got, you know, his his first coach fire, 305 00:19:33,760 --> 00:19:36,239 Speaker 2: just by the way Larry Bird did as well. Right, 306 00:19:36,359 --> 00:19:39,760 Speaker 2: So there's there's there's there's a there's a lot to it. 307 00:19:40,920 --> 00:19:45,840 Speaker 2: What when he went to Michigan State, what was that dynamic? Like? 308 00:19:46,160 --> 00:19:48,359 Speaker 3: Oh, it was he did not want to go there, 309 00:19:48,840 --> 00:19:52,720 Speaker 3: he was absolutely he did not like Judd heathcode, He 310 00:19:52,800 --> 00:19:59,280 Speaker 3: did not like all of his sideline history onics. It 311 00:19:59,320 --> 00:20:03,280 Speaker 3: was just a bad fit. Michigan State had fired guskanakas 312 00:20:03,880 --> 00:20:08,360 Speaker 3: the coach that Magic really enjoyed as a kid. And 313 00:20:08,520 --> 00:20:12,320 Speaker 3: you know, jud Heathcote wasn't aware of magic when he 314 00:20:12,359 --> 00:20:18,480 Speaker 3: got to Lansing, but they told him he should get 315 00:20:18,520 --> 00:20:23,840 Speaker 3: a background real quickly. But Judd could not stand the 316 00:20:24,000 --> 00:20:28,119 Speaker 3: idea of magic passing off the dribble. And of course, 317 00:20:28,160 --> 00:20:33,080 Speaker 3: with his no look passes and his revolutionary style of play, 318 00:20:33,160 --> 00:20:37,320 Speaker 3: nobody's ever played that way really since, But he was 319 00:20:37,400 --> 00:20:41,600 Speaker 3: born to pass off the dribble. Obviously, magic was moving 320 00:20:41,680 --> 00:20:45,280 Speaker 3: from high school to the big ten. What was a 321 00:20:45,280 --> 00:20:48,880 Speaker 3: beautiful pass in high school could become a Big ten 322 00:20:49,080 --> 00:20:55,280 Speaker 3: turnover in a flash. But they engaged in a real 323 00:20:55,400 --> 00:21:00,960 Speaker 3: test of wills and jud Heathcote had an extremely strong will, 324 00:21:02,200 --> 00:21:06,399 Speaker 3: and so did Magic. And people don't realize Magic walked 325 00:21:06,400 --> 00:21:09,840 Speaker 3: out of practice. He was done with Michigan State. But 326 00:21:10,119 --> 00:21:14,640 Speaker 3: doctor Charles Tucker called up Magic's father and they got 327 00:21:14,760 --> 00:21:19,200 Speaker 3: him back into practice in a few days, and so 328 00:21:19,520 --> 00:21:24,080 Speaker 3: his tenure there didn't end that freshman season. But you know, 329 00:21:24,240 --> 00:21:31,160 Speaker 3: he eventually bent jud heath Coat to his will, not 330 00:21:31,160 --> 00:21:35,440 Speaker 3: not heavily, but enough to get that championship in their 331 00:21:35,520 --> 00:21:36,440 Speaker 3: second season. 332 00:21:37,640 --> 00:21:40,560 Speaker 4: Fox Sports Radio has the best sports talk lineup in 333 00:21:40,560 --> 00:21:43,920 Speaker 4: the nation. Catch all of our shows at Foxsports Radio 334 00:21:44,080 --> 00:21:48,159 Speaker 4: dot com and within the iHeartRadio app search FSR to 335 00:21:48,280 --> 00:21:48,920 Speaker 4: listen live. 336 00:21:50,560 --> 00:21:53,719 Speaker 2: He ends up in Los Angeles. Right, there's a trade. 337 00:21:54,080 --> 00:21:59,680 Speaker 2: Goodrich is traded. He ends up with the Lakers. What 338 00:21:59,720 --> 00:22:02,359 Speaker 2: was his first interactions in Los Angeles? 339 00:22:02,480 --> 00:22:07,600 Speaker 3: Like, well, you know, he went to one of their 340 00:22:07,640 --> 00:22:11,520 Speaker 3: early rookie practices. He had a big moment in the 341 00:22:11,640 --> 00:22:15,200 Speaker 3: LA Summer League, which was nothing like Summer League today. 342 00:22:15,200 --> 00:22:18,840 Speaker 3: It was a sleepy little affair, but people kicked in 343 00:22:18,960 --> 00:22:24,680 Speaker 3: the doors. The Lakers were, as the great columnist Jim 344 00:22:24,760 --> 00:22:28,480 Speaker 3: Murray said, they look by the late seventies, they looked 345 00:22:28,520 --> 00:22:32,280 Speaker 3: like a group of guys carrying a casket, and it 346 00:22:32,400 --> 00:22:40,840 Speaker 3: was really a very miserable situation. And in Kareem Abdul Jabbar, 347 00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:45,560 Speaker 3: their great center, Magic finally found a teammate that he 348 00:22:45,640 --> 00:22:49,959 Speaker 3: couldn't bend to his will. But he very wisely, at 349 00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:54,400 Speaker 3: age nineteen, took a step back and realized he had 350 00:22:54,480 --> 00:22:59,040 Speaker 3: to do things differently with Kareem. But one of the 351 00:22:59,080 --> 00:23:04,960 Speaker 3: first interactions he had he went in Paul westthead arrived late, 352 00:23:05,520 --> 00:23:07,560 Speaker 3: the guy who was going to be the assistant coach, 353 00:23:08,119 --> 00:23:11,840 Speaker 3: a fine college coach out of Philly, and they had 354 00:23:11,880 --> 00:23:17,160 Speaker 3: the rookies practicing, and Magic Johnson goes dashing across the 355 00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:22,600 Speaker 3: floor to throw this huge hug on Paul Westead. And 356 00:23:22,680 --> 00:23:26,520 Speaker 3: Paul Westead was not a guy that you know. It was, 357 00:23:27,480 --> 00:23:31,160 Speaker 3: I guess you would call it standoffish coaching. You weren't 358 00:23:31,240 --> 00:23:35,760 Speaker 3: looking to be best friends with the guys you were coaching. 359 00:23:36,080 --> 00:23:42,320 Speaker 3: You weren't trying to be contrary or anything. But that 360 00:23:42,400 --> 00:23:48,080 Speaker 3: first hug that Magic threw on west Head was probably 361 00:23:48,240 --> 00:23:52,920 Speaker 3: the last because and don't get me wrong, they got 362 00:23:52,960 --> 00:23:57,240 Speaker 3: along well enough, well enough to win that championship, and 363 00:23:57,320 --> 00:24:02,280 Speaker 3: Magic would have stole Westead's virtues. But of course that 364 00:24:02,520 --> 00:24:12,040 Speaker 3: famously turned sour in a hurry, Why turn tut. I 365 00:24:12,040 --> 00:24:16,320 Speaker 3: don't think Westead really had a clue about the emotional 366 00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:21,719 Speaker 3: side of pro basketball players. But I think the real 367 00:24:21,840 --> 00:24:29,360 Speaker 3: issue was that the Lakers were a schizophrenic team. They 368 00:24:29,400 --> 00:24:32,480 Speaker 3: had all these guys that wanted to run with Magic. 369 00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:37,200 Speaker 3: They had a system that featured two point guards, essentially 370 00:24:38,160 --> 00:24:43,159 Speaker 3: Magic and Norm Nixon, and they had the greatest half 371 00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:46,760 Speaker 3: court weapon in the history of the game, i e. 372 00:24:46,960 --> 00:24:50,280 Speaker 3: A guy who wasn't going to get out and run 373 00:24:50,320 --> 00:24:56,639 Speaker 3: with them. And so actually those guys who loved to 374 00:24:56,760 --> 00:25:00,840 Speaker 3: run with Magic. Early in his tenure, they printed up 375 00:25:00,880 --> 00:25:04,000 Speaker 3: little matchbooks. A lot of the players smoked back then, 376 00:25:04,600 --> 00:25:09,679 Speaker 3: and the match books said trade Kareem. And it was 377 00:25:09,800 --> 00:25:15,040 Speaker 3: funny after they won the championship in nineteen eighty and 378 00:25:15,080 --> 00:25:19,000 Speaker 3: you know, really they got in positioned to win the 379 00:25:19,119 --> 00:25:26,800 Speaker 3: championship because Kareem working out of the half court gave 380 00:25:26,840 --> 00:25:29,000 Speaker 3: them a three to two lead in games and they 381 00:25:29,040 --> 00:25:32,119 Speaker 3: had to go to Philly. As you recall, for Game six, 382 00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:35,240 Speaker 3: it was going to be on tape delay because the 383 00:25:35,359 --> 00:25:41,640 Speaker 3: NBA's broadcasting numbers were so bad and Korem couldn't play. 384 00:25:42,200 --> 00:25:45,160 Speaker 3: He had sprained his ankle in Game five, and suddenly 385 00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:49,760 Speaker 3: that opened up everything changed. The matchups really befuddled coach 386 00:25:49,840 --> 00:25:55,640 Speaker 3: Billy Cunningham of the Sixers, and Magic won, scoring forty 387 00:25:55,680 --> 00:26:02,920 Speaker 3: two points and all these rebounds and assists, and it 388 00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:06,480 Speaker 3: led to the image that they were this great running 389 00:26:06,520 --> 00:26:10,080 Speaker 3: team that had won. They were not. They were a 390 00:26:10,119 --> 00:26:17,000 Speaker 3: team that lived on Kareem's ability to force every other 391 00:26:17,160 --> 00:26:21,760 Speaker 3: team to scheme to stop him. And Paul West had 392 00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:26,760 Speaker 3: did what every coach in America would do. He came 393 00:26:26,840 --> 00:26:34,000 Speaker 3: in the next season, and he came in two seasons 394 00:26:34,080 --> 00:26:38,080 Speaker 3: later and really began to focus on installing a much 395 00:26:38,119 --> 00:26:43,840 Speaker 3: better half court offense, which led to a rebellion led 396 00:26:43,880 --> 00:26:48,840 Speaker 3: by Magic of the players. They did not want to 397 00:26:50,560 --> 00:26:53,080 Speaker 3: They did not want to engage in any kind of 398 00:26:53,160 --> 00:26:55,520 Speaker 3: half court basketball. They wanted to run. 399 00:26:55,960 --> 00:26:58,720 Speaker 1: So what was Magic's relationship with Kareem like? 400 00:26:58,760 --> 00:27:06,440 Speaker 3: At this time, Magic was wisely deferential. Apparently he had 401 00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:09,880 Speaker 3: his own set of matches, the matchbook cover that said 402 00:27:09,920 --> 00:27:13,760 Speaker 3: trade Kareem. It was a joke. I don't think anyone 403 00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:22,400 Speaker 3: really wanted to trade Kareem. But Kareem was a tough guy. 404 00:27:22,920 --> 00:27:25,159 Speaker 3: You know. He spent a lot of time with his 405 00:27:25,359 --> 00:27:29,000 Speaker 3: back turn to everybody in the locker room, his nose 406 00:27:29,160 --> 00:27:32,480 Speaker 3: in a book or the morning paper, and you know, 407 00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:36,560 Speaker 3: Magic was his rookie, and Magic had to run errands 408 00:27:36,560 --> 00:27:41,000 Speaker 3: for him. All that was fine. Kareem wasn't wasn't tough there. 409 00:27:41,800 --> 00:27:47,520 Speaker 3: But you know a lot of the people around Magic, 410 00:27:48,800 --> 00:27:52,560 Speaker 3: George Andrews, his lawyer, all these people dealing with him, 411 00:27:53,480 --> 00:28:02,800 Speaker 3: really felt that Magic been over backward to accommodate Kareem 412 00:28:02,880 --> 00:28:06,920 Speaker 3: and that Kareem never appreciated it. Of course, it wasn't 413 00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:12,360 Speaker 3: long before a Jerry Buss secretly gave Magic this twenty 414 00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:17,080 Speaker 3: five year, twenty five million dollar contract, and then he 415 00:28:17,200 --> 00:28:20,600 Speaker 3: couldn't stand it. He had to tell everybody about it, 416 00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:26,919 Speaker 3: and once he did, I mean, that just detonated the 417 00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:31,159 Speaker 3: Lakers chemistry. You know, Kareem was so furious he couldn't 418 00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:34,879 Speaker 3: even speak because not only did Jerry Buss give Magic 419 00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:40,200 Speaker 3: this twenty five year, twenty five million dollar contract, but 420 00:28:40,320 --> 00:28:43,040 Speaker 3: he talked about him as a member of the family, 421 00:28:43,560 --> 00:28:46,160 Speaker 3: and he had been, I mean, the owner of the Lakers, 422 00:28:46,200 --> 00:28:50,800 Speaker 3: a guy Nuda to the NBA just fell in love 423 00:28:50,840 --> 00:28:54,040 Speaker 3: with Magic from the first they were up clubbing together, 424 00:28:54,680 --> 00:28:59,040 Speaker 3: running around, going to all kinds of sporting events, hanging 425 00:28:59,080 --> 00:29:02,440 Speaker 3: out into the wei hours. No other player had that 426 00:29:02,560 --> 00:29:07,200 Speaker 3: kind of access. Nobody in the history of the NBA 427 00:29:07,320 --> 00:29:10,440 Speaker 3: had had that kind of relationship with an owner and 428 00:29:10,480 --> 00:29:14,360 Speaker 3: then suddenly it had this contract sprung on them. And 429 00:29:14,440 --> 00:29:17,920 Speaker 3: Kareem told me once, he said, I just don't think 430 00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:23,800 Speaker 3: Jerry Buss could handle my personal integrity. And you know, 431 00:29:23,920 --> 00:29:29,160 Speaker 3: Kareem really didn't like Bus had all the celebrities with 432 00:29:29,240 --> 00:29:35,240 Speaker 3: him at games up in his owners section of the building, 433 00:29:35,360 --> 00:29:38,960 Speaker 3: and he had all these pregame dinners at the Forum. 434 00:29:39,320 --> 00:29:42,360 Speaker 3: He turned the Forum Club, He created the Forum Club 435 00:29:42,400 --> 00:29:47,560 Speaker 3: and turned it into this party scene and magic was 436 00:29:49,160 --> 00:29:52,440 Speaker 3: you know, as Ron Carter who played for the Lakers 437 00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:56,400 Speaker 3: and then worked for Jerry Buss for quite a while 438 00:29:56,440 --> 00:30:00,440 Speaker 3: in his real estate operations. The Lakers were basically, in 439 00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:05,040 Speaker 3: many ways a honeypot for Jerry Buss to attract investors 440 00:30:05,080 --> 00:30:09,720 Speaker 3: and his real estate deals and to bring in all 441 00:30:09,760 --> 00:30:15,120 Speaker 3: the celebrities and people. Bus was very hungry for celebrity. 442 00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:19,520 Speaker 3: That doesn't make him any different than any other billionaire 443 00:30:20,040 --> 00:30:23,840 Speaker 3: or back then millionaire who was wanting to own a 444 00:30:23,880 --> 00:30:27,200 Speaker 3: team and get a much higher profile, But the way 445 00:30:27,240 --> 00:30:31,920 Speaker 3: he went at it and his infatuation. As Genie Buss 446 00:30:31,960 --> 00:30:35,440 Speaker 3: told me for my book, it was like they were 447 00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:39,960 Speaker 3: soulmates almost from the very start, and it stayed that way, 448 00:30:40,640 --> 00:30:48,920 Speaker 3: and Kareem resented it just immensely. It annoyed him if 449 00:30:49,160 --> 00:30:51,640 Speaker 3: Magic and Jerry Buss were to place that none of 450 00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:53,000 Speaker 3: the other Lakers could go. 451 00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:57,720 Speaker 2: Meanwhile, there's very successful, right like obviously the first championship 452 00:30:57,760 --> 00:31:02,040 Speaker 2: and then some dips whatever, but still very very competitive. 453 00:31:03,800 --> 00:31:07,120 Speaker 2: What was his What was the dynamic like once they 454 00:31:07,120 --> 00:31:12,040 Speaker 2: got rid of west Head, what was the dynamic like 455 00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:12,800 Speaker 2: with pat Riley? 456 00:31:13,640 --> 00:31:16,520 Speaker 3: Well, pat Riley, you know, had been the sub on 457 00:31:16,560 --> 00:31:20,040 Speaker 3: the Lakers that back up to Jerry west His old 458 00:31:20,080 --> 00:31:28,920 Speaker 3: man had been a minor league baseball manager. Pat Riley 459 00:31:30,600 --> 00:31:36,440 Speaker 3: understood the emotional side of being a pro athlete in 460 00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:41,920 Speaker 3: a way that Paul Westead did not. And it took 461 00:31:41,960 --> 00:31:45,760 Speaker 3: a while there. There were all kinds of issues. Basically, 462 00:31:45,840 --> 00:31:51,160 Speaker 3: pat Riley still had to solve the schizophrenic nature of 463 00:31:51,160 --> 00:31:54,240 Speaker 3: that team. They were gonna They could beat you either way. 464 00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:59,200 Speaker 3: They could slow up in a half court and everybody 465 00:31:59,240 --> 00:32:02,000 Speaker 3: in the NBA had to really work to stop Kareem, 466 00:32:02,560 --> 00:32:04,640 Speaker 3: or they could get out on the break and they 467 00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:09,680 Speaker 3: could just go right by you and just create fast 468 00:32:09,720 --> 00:32:16,400 Speaker 3: break finishes like never seen before in basketball, and you 469 00:32:16,600 --> 00:32:21,080 Speaker 3: just never knew which was going to happen. And so 470 00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:24,680 Speaker 3: that was good. But even Riley had to solve that 471 00:32:24,800 --> 00:32:30,160 Speaker 3: kind of problem that Paul West had had faced because 472 00:32:30,760 --> 00:32:34,120 Speaker 3: and you know, I think probably who was instructive the 473 00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:38,720 Speaker 3: most was a guy like Phil Jackson, who came out 474 00:32:39,480 --> 00:32:41,320 Speaker 3: with the Knicks with Red Holtzman. When we went to 475 00:32:41,360 --> 00:32:45,120 Speaker 3: the Bulls, that was a very easy hierarchy. It was 476 00:32:45,280 --> 00:32:49,560 Speaker 3: Michael Jordan on that team and everybody else. And Jordan 477 00:32:49,760 --> 00:32:54,160 Speaker 3: drove the bus literally when he got to the Lakers boom. 478 00:32:54,240 --> 00:32:56,920 Speaker 3: Here he had Kobe and he had Shaq, and Kobe 479 00:32:57,000 --> 00:32:59,840 Speaker 3: was thinking, oh, here comes Phil with the triangle. This 480 00:32:59,880 --> 00:33:01,840 Speaker 3: is going to be my big break. And Phil was 481 00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:06,360 Speaker 3: just really cold with Kobe to the point the texts Winner, 482 00:33:06,400 --> 00:33:09,720 Speaker 3: his assistant coach had to intervene and tell Phil, you 483 00:33:10,080 --> 00:33:13,640 Speaker 3: can't treat Kobe this way. But every coach in America 484 00:33:13,800 --> 00:33:17,400 Speaker 3: with a shack on the roster is going to do 485 00:33:17,480 --> 00:33:22,840 Speaker 3: what It's going to establish a shack hierarchy first, and 486 00:33:23,720 --> 00:33:28,400 Speaker 3: a flashy young guard. That's just not how you build things. 487 00:33:28,440 --> 00:33:34,200 Speaker 3: That's not your priority, and so pat Riley understood that 488 00:33:34,880 --> 00:33:39,479 Speaker 3: he had to He had two people he had to 489 00:33:39,520 --> 00:33:43,080 Speaker 3: feed there. But he figured out ways to do it 490 00:33:43,120 --> 00:33:47,760 Speaker 3: and it really helped that Magic had everybody in America 491 00:33:47,880 --> 00:33:52,400 Speaker 3: booing him after he fired Paul Westead and Magic essentially 492 00:33:52,560 --> 00:34:01,520 Speaker 3: fired his own championship coach, and Riley was aware that 493 00:34:03,280 --> 00:34:07,000 Speaker 3: Magic was in a position where he had to deliver. 494 00:34:07,440 --> 00:34:11,319 Speaker 3: The only way out of that was to win. If 495 00:34:11,360 --> 00:34:18,560 Speaker 3: they had not won, Magic would never have gained the 496 00:34:18,640 --> 00:34:24,920 Speaker 3: momentum he did that nineteen eighty two NBA Finals victory 497 00:34:25,640 --> 00:34:30,040 Speaker 3: over Philadelphia, and the way they finished it, the strong 498 00:34:30,200 --> 00:34:36,000 Speaker 3: manner that set the table. It didn't guarantee them immediate success, 499 00:34:36,480 --> 00:34:40,440 Speaker 3: but it really shut up all the booing, and the 500 00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:43,960 Speaker 3: booing went on and on and just about every NBA 501 00:34:44,080 --> 00:34:47,960 Speaker 3: arena through the rest of that eighty one eighty two season. 502 00:34:48,920 --> 00:34:50,800 Speaker 1: How that, how's that affect him? 503 00:34:51,840 --> 00:34:57,040 Speaker 3: Well, you know, it's hard to say. You know, his 504 00:34:57,160 --> 00:35:00,000 Speaker 3: coaches from Lansing and all the people in the communit 505 00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:03,840 Speaker 3: were very close to him. And after he fired his coach, 506 00:35:03,960 --> 00:35:07,800 Speaker 3: they knew Magic was really down, and they all loaded 507 00:35:07,880 --> 00:35:11,759 Speaker 3: up and went down to Chicago to see him for 508 00:35:11,880 --> 00:35:16,000 Speaker 3: a game. And yeah, typical. Magic had a dinner plan 509 00:35:16,120 --> 00:35:19,040 Speaker 3: for him afterwards. He basically had place cards at all 510 00:35:19,080 --> 00:35:22,319 Speaker 3: the seats. He was the ultimate control freak. He knew 511 00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:26,600 Speaker 3: where he wanted all the coaches and various people seated. 512 00:35:26,880 --> 00:35:29,319 Speaker 3: He had rooms for him in the Lakers Hotel, so 513 00:35:29,360 --> 00:35:32,880 Speaker 3: they had a wonderful dinner. Magic had been booed heavily 514 00:35:32,960 --> 00:35:37,239 Speaker 3: in Chicago that night and they were worried about him. 515 00:35:37,719 --> 00:35:41,880 Speaker 3: But they got back to the hotel and the place 516 00:35:42,080 --> 00:35:48,000 Speaker 3: was like a hooker's convention. It was absolutely packed with women. 517 00:35:48,280 --> 00:35:52,160 Speaker 3: And I'm not just talking the lobby. They were parraling 518 00:35:52,320 --> 00:35:56,160 Speaker 3: all through the hallways and stuff. And his coaches looked 519 00:35:56,160 --> 00:35:59,120 Speaker 3: at him and said, Irvin, who are all these women? 520 00:35:59,480 --> 00:36:04,719 Speaker 3: Are these women all prostitutes? And Magic said, no, some 521 00:36:04,800 --> 00:36:08,520 Speaker 3: of them are prostitutes, but a lot of them are 522 00:36:08,680 --> 00:36:12,520 Speaker 3: just women, business women, whatnot who want to be intimate 523 00:36:12,600 --> 00:36:17,120 Speaker 3: with an NBA player, specifically a Laker. And years later, 524 00:36:17,320 --> 00:36:20,840 Speaker 3: when you know he was, he announced the world that 525 00:36:20,880 --> 00:36:24,840 Speaker 3: he was HIV positive. All those coaches thought back to 526 00:36:24,920 --> 00:36:30,600 Speaker 3: that night, and George Fox, his high school coach, always 527 00:36:30,719 --> 00:36:34,040 Speaker 3: used to say, oh, Magic took too many field trips 528 00:36:34,080 --> 00:36:39,000 Speaker 3: with Jerry Buss. Yeah, yeah, they believed all that booing 529 00:36:39,160 --> 00:36:44,040 Speaker 3: sort of hasten Magic into the arms of that adoring crowd. 530 00:36:44,840 --> 00:36:47,600 Speaker 3: I don't think so. I think Magic was already well 531 00:36:47,800 --> 00:36:52,719 Speaker 3: ensconced into the arms of that adoring crowd. Sounds about right. 532 00:36:54,200 --> 00:36:58,279 Speaker 2: The book takes us into the dynamics of the rivalry 533 00:36:58,320 --> 00:37:01,960 Speaker 2: with Larry Bird. How real was that? 534 00:37:03,040 --> 00:37:08,000 Speaker 3: Oh? You know, Bird was an asshole and Magic was 535 00:37:08,040 --> 00:37:11,799 Speaker 3: this nice guy. But Bird was not a friendly competitor, 536 00:37:12,120 --> 00:37:15,080 Speaker 3: you know. Dominique Wilkins tells the story. Bird wouldn't even 537 00:37:15,120 --> 00:37:21,480 Speaker 3: shake his hand. You know, Birt was Bird was on 538 00:37:21,719 --> 00:37:24,640 Speaker 3: a mission of his own, in his own style, in 539 00:37:24,680 --> 00:37:30,680 Speaker 3: his own way. You know. Larry and Magic had Billy 540 00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:39,040 Speaker 3: Packer and some entrepreneurs had put together an international touring 541 00:37:39,120 --> 00:37:44,480 Speaker 3: team in nineteen seventy eight to come play basketball in 542 00:37:44,480 --> 00:37:51,640 Speaker 3: America international pros from Europe and South America. And they 543 00:37:51,680 --> 00:37:55,720 Speaker 3: got job Hall at Kentucky who had just won the championship, 544 00:37:56,160 --> 00:38:01,960 Speaker 3: and his starting five, and they included Larry and Magic 545 00:38:02,120 --> 00:38:04,719 Speaker 3: on that team, and they would add other players. They 546 00:38:04,800 --> 00:38:08,799 Speaker 3: played three games in three venues and there was a 547 00:38:08,800 --> 00:38:11,920 Speaker 3: lot of garbage time in those games. And Joby Hall, 548 00:38:12,640 --> 00:38:16,960 Speaker 3: the two guys who would revolutionize basketball hardly got off 549 00:38:17,000 --> 00:38:19,640 Speaker 3: the bench. And you know, again it's a coach with 550 00:38:19,760 --> 00:38:26,279 Speaker 3: his starting five NCAA champions. He wasn't much interested in 551 00:38:26,440 --> 00:38:31,040 Speaker 3: Magic or in Bird, And as Billy Packer said, you know, 552 00:38:31,280 --> 00:38:34,000 Speaker 3: Bird just seemed to be pouting the whole time. But 553 00:38:34,080 --> 00:38:39,240 Speaker 3: when they would get on the floor, they just couldn't help. 554 00:38:39,760 --> 00:38:44,640 Speaker 3: But with the way they played, with that open court look, 555 00:38:44,800 --> 00:38:48,279 Speaker 3: with the way they rebounded, and of course the rebounding 556 00:38:48,320 --> 00:38:52,440 Speaker 3: for Magic and Bird both was such a part of 557 00:38:52,480 --> 00:38:56,680 Speaker 3: the way they controlled things, especially as they rose through 558 00:38:56,719 --> 00:39:01,960 Speaker 3: college basketball on into the NBA. In fact, you asked 559 00:39:01,960 --> 00:39:07,319 Speaker 3: about that first season in la as Paul West had explained, 560 00:39:08,160 --> 00:39:12,480 Speaker 3: Magic wasn't really trying to be a point guard. His 561 00:39:12,600 --> 00:39:15,840 Speaker 3: solution to the Kareem thing and all the other issues 562 00:39:15,880 --> 00:39:21,920 Speaker 3: with the Lakers was to rebound. And he really obviously 563 00:39:22,000 --> 00:39:26,719 Speaker 3: has always had, always had great ability to rebound, just 564 00:39:27,520 --> 00:39:32,520 Speaker 3: that knack, and whether it was offensive rebounding to produce 565 00:39:32,600 --> 00:39:36,680 Speaker 3: another shot or really driving the fast break with his 566 00:39:36,880 --> 00:39:42,200 Speaker 3: defensive rebound, it was the kind of thing he could 567 00:39:42,239 --> 00:39:45,640 Speaker 3: retreat to without getting in the way of one guy 568 00:39:45,760 --> 00:39:49,520 Speaker 3: or another. And that really was the foundation with which 569 00:39:49,560 --> 00:39:52,279 Speaker 3: he built his identity. 570 00:39:52,440 --> 00:39:58,120 Speaker 2: Was showtime, the HIV and the early retirement. 571 00:40:00,560 --> 00:40:01,720 Speaker 1: What was that like to research? 572 00:40:03,000 --> 00:40:06,880 Speaker 3: Well, I was there for a lot of it, and 573 00:40:07,080 --> 00:40:10,920 Speaker 3: so I saw it. You know. Lon Rosen helped me 574 00:40:11,080 --> 00:40:15,680 Speaker 3: tremendously with this, as did George Andrews, who had been 575 00:40:15,800 --> 00:40:19,000 Speaker 3: Magic's lawyer for the first seven or eight years of 576 00:40:19,040 --> 00:40:23,400 Speaker 3: his career. He was there for everything. Doctor Charles Tucker 577 00:40:23,520 --> 00:40:28,240 Speaker 3: helped me tremendously. He was Magic's advisor from junior high 578 00:40:28,280 --> 00:40:33,799 Speaker 3: on as a school psychologist and then became his professional advisor. 579 00:40:34,200 --> 00:40:37,560 Speaker 3: Was also an advisor for Isaiah Thomas and Mark Aguire 580 00:40:38,200 --> 00:40:42,600 Speaker 3: and Herb Williams, all these different figures that were sort 581 00:40:42,640 --> 00:40:45,319 Speaker 3: of you know, Magic and Isaiah and those guys were 582 00:40:45,440 --> 00:40:48,440 Speaker 3: sort of sort of a brat pack for the NBA 583 00:40:49,120 --> 00:40:52,560 Speaker 3: or what was called the rat pack in Hollywood. They 584 00:40:53,120 --> 00:40:55,560 Speaker 3: sort of had their own thing going, and Charles Tucker 585 00:40:55,680 --> 00:40:59,719 Speaker 3: was their guy, and so I had the view of 586 00:40:59,760 --> 00:41:04,200 Speaker 3: the guys as they watched Magic go through this experience. 587 00:41:06,560 --> 00:41:10,960 Speaker 3: By the time he got to HIV, Lon Rosen was 588 00:41:11,000 --> 00:41:14,360 Speaker 3: his advisor, but he really had to come clean on 589 00:41:14,440 --> 00:41:15,320 Speaker 3: a lot of things. 590 00:41:15,440 --> 00:41:15,680 Speaker 2: You know. 591 00:41:15,960 --> 00:41:19,759 Speaker 3: It was they looked at every way possible and just 592 00:41:19,800 --> 00:41:25,160 Speaker 3: sort of slinking away and not having to reveal. And 593 00:41:25,680 --> 00:41:28,800 Speaker 3: Magic hated the idea people would think he was gay 594 00:41:29,320 --> 00:41:33,279 Speaker 3: because in America HIV was a gay thing, either that 595 00:41:33,440 --> 00:41:37,239 Speaker 3: or a blood transfusion. But he finally, you know, just 596 00:41:38,200 --> 00:41:44,080 Speaker 3: stood up there and said it. As chick hern would say, 597 00:41:44,160 --> 00:41:46,560 Speaker 3: I had no idea how he could get up in 598 00:41:46,600 --> 00:41:49,799 Speaker 3: front of the world and say those things. And it 599 00:41:49,880 --> 00:41:55,839 Speaker 3: was a very somber thing. It cost him tremendously. It 600 00:41:55,840 --> 00:41:59,080 Speaker 3: has cost him as a public figure, and I think 601 00:41:59,200 --> 00:42:03,960 Speaker 3: one of the amazing things is how he recovered from it. Obviously, 602 00:42:04,480 --> 00:42:07,719 Speaker 3: the All Star Game in nineteen ninety two in Orlando 603 00:42:07,960 --> 00:42:14,399 Speaker 3: was an amazing event. The Dream Team was a great thing. 604 00:42:14,880 --> 00:42:20,040 Speaker 3: But really the underreported chapter is the Magic Johnson All Stars. 605 00:42:20,400 --> 00:42:25,239 Speaker 3: He made twenty first century money. There was such a 606 00:42:25,400 --> 00:42:31,640 Speaker 3: hunger after the ninety two Dream Team for American basketball globally, 607 00:42:32,000 --> 00:42:34,520 Speaker 3: and he got all these retired guys, flew him around 608 00:42:34,600 --> 00:42:38,480 Speaker 3: in lear jets. He had all these games. He raked 609 00:42:38,880 --> 00:42:44,920 Speaker 3: in the cash and really popularized in ways that just 610 00:42:44,960 --> 00:42:48,680 Speaker 3: weren't reported here. It wasn't a big deal in America 611 00:42:48,760 --> 00:42:52,320 Speaker 3: that Magic's touring with his All Stars, but in Europe, 612 00:42:52,360 --> 00:42:55,400 Speaker 3: on every continent except Antarctica, and hell, they may have 613 00:42:55,440 --> 00:42:57,839 Speaker 3: played a game or two an Antarctica, I don't know, 614 00:42:58,239 --> 00:43:01,720 Speaker 3: but they played everywhere and there was no concern about HIV. 615 00:43:02,840 --> 00:43:09,239 Speaker 3: And it was right at this time that he and 616 00:43:09,360 --> 00:43:13,399 Speaker 3: his business manager, these two black guys, got a hold 617 00:43:13,440 --> 00:43:17,920 Speaker 3: of Peter gouber At, who is head of Sony USA, 618 00:43:18,360 --> 00:43:22,719 Speaker 3: and pitched the Magic Johnson Theaters as this great big thing, 619 00:43:22,800 --> 00:43:26,160 Speaker 3: and of course it was. And Sony first funded him 620 00:43:26,200 --> 00:43:29,080 Speaker 3: and then bought them out right from Magic. And that 621 00:43:29,320 --> 00:43:33,360 Speaker 3: was his first big score of a business deal. 622 00:43:34,360 --> 00:43:34,480 Speaker 4: Uh. 623 00:43:34,840 --> 00:43:40,279 Speaker 3: And that guy is I mean he has uh, he 624 00:43:40,360 --> 00:43:47,480 Speaker 3: has more businesses going today's insurance companies, banks or find 625 00:43:47,600 --> 00:43:54,600 Speaker 3: lending institutions, contracting companies. He's he's a busy, busy guy. 626 00:43:54,800 --> 00:43:59,040 Speaker 3: And he this again is the organic Magic. He obsessed 627 00:43:59,080 --> 00:44:04,439 Speaker 3: about being a businessman like this since he was a kid, 628 00:44:04,480 --> 00:44:09,920 Speaker 3: a teenager, cleaning the offices of this very successful black 629 00:44:10,000 --> 00:44:14,359 Speaker 3: businessman in Lansing, Michigan. Magic used to prop his feet 630 00:44:14,440 --> 00:44:17,120 Speaker 3: up on the desk at night when he was cleaning 631 00:44:17,160 --> 00:44:21,160 Speaker 3: the offices, up in the executive suite and just dream 632 00:44:21,360 --> 00:44:27,440 Speaker 3: of being this guy. And you know it's not easy. 633 00:44:28,840 --> 00:44:29,840 Speaker 3: He is that guy. 634 00:44:31,400 --> 00:44:36,440 Speaker 2: Last thing, when I closed this book, what do you 635 00:44:36,600 --> 00:44:39,080 Speaker 2: believe my image of Magic Johnson's going to. 636 00:44:39,080 --> 00:44:46,560 Speaker 3: Be pretty damn cool. And I'm not selling that, but 637 00:44:46,680 --> 00:44:51,960 Speaker 3: I just think, you know, Kobe destroyed his life, he 638 00:44:52,040 --> 00:44:58,120 Speaker 3: destroyed his career, and he had to rebuild it, and 639 00:44:58,239 --> 00:45:03,840 Speaker 3: that required that iron will that these great competitors have. 640 00:45:04,320 --> 00:45:08,000 Speaker 3: They it's just a different thing. It's a different level 641 00:45:08,120 --> 00:45:11,800 Speaker 3: thing in each of these guys. And Magic pretty much 642 00:45:12,000 --> 00:45:17,319 Speaker 3: with the HIV thing really just deep sixth everything he 643 00:45:17,400 --> 00:45:22,000 Speaker 3: had built up as an NBA uh star and champion. 644 00:45:22,080 --> 00:45:26,160 Speaker 3: I mean, it just made him. I hear it now 645 00:45:26,520 --> 00:45:28,440 Speaker 3: people ask me, why the hell are you writing a 646 00:45:28,480 --> 00:45:32,920 Speaker 3: book about that guy? But he had, he is possessed 647 00:45:32,960 --> 00:45:39,640 Speaker 3: of that insanely iron will, and he has used every 648 00:45:40,000 --> 00:45:42,439 Speaker 3: bit of it. And it's you know, it hasn't been. 649 00:45:42,840 --> 00:45:47,240 Speaker 3: Everything he's done is writ He had an abysmal talk 650 00:45:47,280 --> 00:45:51,440 Speaker 3: show period and and you know, he had a strange 651 00:45:51,480 --> 00:45:55,040 Speaker 3: situation with the Lakers. He got latuh he you know, 652 00:45:55,280 --> 00:45:58,759 Speaker 3: he got Lebron there and then he resigned in a 653 00:45:58,920 --> 00:46:08,440 Speaker 3: snit that seemed really childish. But he just has managed 654 00:46:08,880 --> 00:46:13,720 Speaker 3: to take the circumstances that would have wrecked anybody else 655 00:46:14,320 --> 00:46:18,200 Speaker 3: and he has rum victory out of it in a 656 00:46:18,480 --> 00:46:19,480 Speaker 3: very big way. 657 00:46:20,280 --> 00:46:22,600 Speaker 2: Well, I can't tell you how much I appreciate your time. 658 00:46:23,160 --> 00:46:26,759 Speaker 2: I am really really looking forward to this book. And 659 00:46:27,760 --> 00:46:31,480 Speaker 2: I don't speak Portuguese, but eventually it'll come out in Portuguese, 660 00:46:31,480 --> 00:46:32,759 Speaker 2: like the Michael Jordan book has. 661 00:46:33,040 --> 00:46:36,600 Speaker 3: It's already in eight languages, just Greek. I don't speak 662 00:46:36,600 --> 00:46:39,680 Speaker 3: a word of any of these languages, but I do 663 00:46:39,840 --> 00:46:44,600 Speaker 3: enjoy watching people all over the globe lock in on 664 00:46:44,840 --> 00:46:51,080 Speaker 3: basketball because you know, magic is magical. Basketball is magical, 665 00:46:52,160 --> 00:46:55,759 Speaker 3: All of this stuff is. It's important in a very 666 00:46:55,800 --> 00:46:56,439 Speaker 3: different way. 667 00:46:57,840 --> 00:47:00,240 Speaker 2: Thanks for your time and enjoying me. I truly appreciate it. 668 00:47:00,320 --> 00:47:01,280 Speaker 3: Great to see you again. 669 00:47:04,320 --> 00:47:07,600 Speaker 2: To reminder of The Doug Gottlieb Show airs daily daily 670 00:47:07,719 --> 00:47:10,160 Speaker 2: three to five Eastern twelve to two Pacific plus, we 671 00:47:10,200 --> 00:47:13,240 Speaker 2: have the Bonus Our podcast. Just type in Doug Gottlieb 672 00:47:13,280 --> 00:47:15,680 Speaker 2: Show you can download it. Bonus Our is a little 673 00:47:15,680 --> 00:47:19,719 Speaker 2: bit more un koof. We don't have any FCC regulations. 674 00:47:19,719 --> 00:47:21,240 Speaker 2: We can just have a lot of fun with it. 675 00:47:21,239 --> 00:47:23,520 Speaker 2: It's called the Doug Gottlieb Show. Download wherever you download 676 00:47:23,520 --> 00:47:25,759 Speaker 2: podcast like this one. In the meantime, I thanks for 677 00:47:26,000 --> 00:47:28,879 Speaker 2: Rowland for joining me. I'm Doug Gottlieb, This is all ball.