1 00:00:00,720 --> 00:00:04,640 Speaker 1: My name is Evil Longoria and I am Myra and 2 00:00:04,800 --> 00:00:09,639 Speaker 1: welcome to Hungry for History, a podcast that explores are 3 00:00:09,680 --> 00:00:12,600 Speaker 1: past and present through food. On every episode, we'll talk 4 00:00:12,600 --> 00:00:15,720 Speaker 1: about the history of some of our favorite dishes, ingredients, 5 00:00:15,800 --> 00:00:17,520 Speaker 1: and beverages from our culture. 6 00:00:17,640 --> 00:00:18,720 Speaker 2: So make yourself at home. 7 00:00:19,400 --> 00:00:26,360 Speaker 3: When O great, you guys, today's episode, I would probably. 8 00:00:26,000 --> 00:00:29,280 Speaker 4: Say it is going to be Mytha's favorite episode. 9 00:00:29,680 --> 00:00:32,560 Speaker 2: I wonder why ever, she's been bugging to. 10 00:00:32,440 --> 00:00:37,600 Speaker 4: Do an episode about cookbooks because you are obsessed and 11 00:00:37,640 --> 00:00:38,920 Speaker 4: you're a huge collector. 12 00:00:39,159 --> 00:00:40,960 Speaker 2: Can you please show them what you brought. 13 00:00:41,040 --> 00:00:43,159 Speaker 5: I brought a few, and I left so many at home. 14 00:00:43,040 --> 00:00:45,440 Speaker 4: And they're old, you guys, these are like some of them, 15 00:00:45,720 --> 00:00:50,400 Speaker 4: the pages are falling out. She has originals, first editions. 16 00:00:50,560 --> 00:00:52,200 Speaker 4: I don't even know cookbook. 17 00:00:51,800 --> 00:00:57,640 Speaker 2: Is first yet? Do they do? They do? Yeah? 18 00:00:56,400 --> 00:00:59,560 Speaker 5: I love, I love, I love, And you have a 19 00:00:59,600 --> 00:01:01,240 Speaker 5: cookbook coming out. 20 00:01:02,000 --> 00:01:03,800 Speaker 2: I'm excited about that. 21 00:01:04,080 --> 00:01:06,720 Speaker 4: So I'm excited about it because it's it's finally Mexican 22 00:01:06,800 --> 00:01:10,120 Speaker 4: specific because of my travels through Mexico and there's so 23 00:01:10,240 --> 00:01:14,240 Speaker 4: many things you think you'll remember, Like I'm like, I'll 24 00:01:14,240 --> 00:01:18,440 Speaker 4: always remember my tomatillosas and then I will go away 25 00:01:18,480 --> 00:01:20,120 Speaker 4: for a year in France, and when I get back, 26 00:01:20,160 --> 00:01:24,800 Speaker 4: I'm like, what, wait, was it cilantro and garlic first? 27 00:01:24,880 --> 00:01:24,959 Speaker 5: Like? 28 00:01:24,959 --> 00:01:27,440 Speaker 4: And then I'm like, oh, so the factor of writing 29 00:01:28,360 --> 00:01:32,520 Speaker 4: stuff down is important. It's important. And my first cookbook 30 00:01:32,720 --> 00:01:34,760 Speaker 4: was because of that. It was like born. It's like 31 00:01:34,800 --> 00:01:36,600 Speaker 4: eleven years ago I did my first cookbook and it 32 00:01:36,640 --> 00:01:41,480 Speaker 4: was because it was born from all of us fighting 33 00:01:41,720 --> 00:01:44,759 Speaker 4: about my aunt's recipe who passed away, and she had 34 00:01:44,800 --> 00:01:47,039 Speaker 4: the best masa recipe and we were like, you. 35 00:01:47,040 --> 00:01:49,040 Speaker 2: Put that sheina in the massa? 36 00:01:49,040 --> 00:01:50,440 Speaker 4: I know you don't you put it in the met 37 00:01:50,560 --> 00:01:54,080 Speaker 4: And literally it was almost a fistfight in the Maliday 38 00:01:54,080 --> 00:01:54,760 Speaker 4: that we were making it. 39 00:01:54,800 --> 00:01:56,960 Speaker 2: And I was like, nobo, I wrote this down when 40 00:01:57,000 --> 00:01:59,720 Speaker 2: she was a lot so that PERSI. 41 00:02:00,720 --> 00:02:04,320 Speaker 4: No, we were her children, okay, And she's the one 42 00:02:04,320 --> 00:02:05,240 Speaker 4: that taught me how to cook. 43 00:02:05,880 --> 00:02:07,920 Speaker 2: And so I have. 44 00:02:08,080 --> 00:02:10,840 Speaker 4: All of her cookbooks and her notes and like little 45 00:02:10,919 --> 00:02:14,000 Speaker 4: stickies and her handwriting, and I just like to open 46 00:02:14,040 --> 00:02:16,160 Speaker 4: them and smell the cookbook because she was a smoker, 47 00:02:16,639 --> 00:02:21,400 Speaker 4: so all the cookbooks have like this cigarette stinky smell it. 48 00:02:21,560 --> 00:02:24,120 Speaker 2: Only you know feels good to me? Right, No, I 49 00:02:24,160 --> 00:02:25,919 Speaker 2: get it as it takes me like right, back to 50 00:02:26,000 --> 00:02:29,160 Speaker 2: your kitchen. Well, and so I do. 51 00:02:29,360 --> 00:02:35,440 Speaker 4: The idea of preserving legacy through food is so important. 52 00:02:35,600 --> 00:02:37,720 Speaker 2: It's like one of the most important books you can write. 53 00:02:37,840 --> 00:02:41,520 Speaker 5: I agree, one hundred percent agree, because then you record this, 54 00:02:41,680 --> 00:02:44,760 Speaker 5: you share it with the world, but even more importantly, 55 00:02:44,880 --> 00:02:47,360 Speaker 5: you're going to share it with SANTHI. Yeah, she's going 56 00:02:47,440 --> 00:02:50,320 Speaker 5: to share it with you know, with Bizcus, you know, 57 00:02:50,480 --> 00:02:54,760 Speaker 5: maybe one day. So it's this idea as capturing a 58 00:02:54,800 --> 00:02:57,560 Speaker 5: moment and then those recipes. 59 00:02:57,000 --> 00:02:59,760 Speaker 2: Will you know change. 60 00:03:00,040 --> 00:03:03,799 Speaker 6: But well, and also books offer like more than recipes, 61 00:03:03,840 --> 00:03:06,560 Speaker 6: and I think it offers a look into your soul 62 00:03:06,639 --> 00:03:08,920 Speaker 6: as a person, like if you're if you're the writer, 63 00:03:09,480 --> 00:03:15,440 Speaker 6: like a window into a culture, time period, a person's life. 64 00:03:16,080 --> 00:03:18,760 Speaker 4: Just like a sense of intimacy behind the page. I 65 00:03:18,840 --> 00:03:20,680 Speaker 4: love to read cookbooks like a novel. I will sit 66 00:03:20,760 --> 00:03:23,960 Speaker 4: down and go from page one to the end and 67 00:03:24,000 --> 00:03:25,799 Speaker 4: I just sit there and I tag things what I'm 68 00:03:25,800 --> 00:03:26,240 Speaker 4: going to make. 69 00:03:26,600 --> 00:03:28,359 Speaker 2: But I read it like a like a book, like 70 00:03:28,400 --> 00:03:32,040 Speaker 2: a narrative book. Yeah, I'm the same, but because you 71 00:03:32,040 --> 00:03:32,919 Speaker 2: can learn so much. 72 00:03:33,080 --> 00:03:36,120 Speaker 5: Yeah, like especially reading between the lines of the recipes 73 00:03:36,120 --> 00:03:38,920 Speaker 5: and ingredients, and it's fascinating to me. 74 00:03:39,400 --> 00:03:41,400 Speaker 2: Fast I actually don't like cookbooks that don't have a 75 00:03:41,400 --> 00:03:45,120 Speaker 2: little story. Yeah. I love stories too, Yeah, because recipes 76 00:03:45,160 --> 00:03:45,880 Speaker 2: are stories. 77 00:03:45,960 --> 00:03:48,440 Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, I think they're like for me, my first 78 00:03:48,440 --> 00:03:51,120 Speaker 4: one was a memoir of my life in that time, 79 00:03:51,280 --> 00:03:53,280 Speaker 4: told through the food and the recipes, because I was 80 00:03:53,280 --> 00:03:56,000 Speaker 4: married to a Frenchman, but I grew up in Texas 81 00:03:56,320 --> 00:03:59,000 Speaker 4: and we lived in France, and so I had French sauces, 82 00:03:59,080 --> 00:04:02,040 Speaker 4: and then I had and then I had you know, 83 00:04:02,280 --> 00:04:05,560 Speaker 4: I was in China and a man taught me this 84 00:04:05,840 --> 00:04:09,240 Speaker 4: ride rice and this one is very Mexican, more like 85 00:04:09,520 --> 00:04:13,520 Speaker 4: a memoir of my time through Mexico what I learned. 86 00:04:13,560 --> 00:04:15,880 Speaker 2: But I feel like cookbooks offer so much more the recipes. 87 00:04:16,040 --> 00:04:17,720 Speaker 2: Oh my gosh. Yes, yes. 88 00:04:18,080 --> 00:04:21,480 Speaker 5: So when your first cookbook, were you able to capture 89 00:04:21,640 --> 00:04:24,360 Speaker 5: your aunts Malis, I don't know. 90 00:04:24,800 --> 00:04:30,480 Speaker 4: I make great demalist. I don't know if it's her recipe. 91 00:04:28,160 --> 00:04:30,200 Speaker 2: So nobody knows. 92 00:04:30,279 --> 00:04:34,960 Speaker 4: She was also like very strict on the folding and 93 00:04:35,040 --> 00:04:38,640 Speaker 4: the massa to meat ratio and the it was very stressful. 94 00:04:38,760 --> 00:04:38,960 Speaker 2: Yeah. 95 00:04:39,000 --> 00:04:42,440 Speaker 4: I was like, I'm not the roller or the meat filler. 96 00:04:42,640 --> 00:04:45,880 Speaker 4: I will be the counter, you know, I'll put it 97 00:04:45,880 --> 00:04:50,920 Speaker 4: in the ziplock bag. I think we should make it 98 00:04:51,040 --> 00:04:53,080 Speaker 4: a habit of drinking before every otherisody. 99 00:04:53,120 --> 00:04:56,080 Speaker 5: I want to show this that Eva does this Martha Stewart, 100 00:04:56,360 --> 00:04:57,679 Speaker 5: She's total Martha Stewart. 101 00:04:57,800 --> 00:05:01,279 Speaker 2: But the ice Q is a little rose orange juice, 102 00:05:01,360 --> 00:05:04,760 Speaker 2: frozen orange juice in these rose molds and you just 103 00:05:04,760 --> 00:05:06,719 Speaker 2: throw it in your prosecco and it's just not only 104 00:05:06,720 --> 00:05:10,000 Speaker 2: pretty but sweeter. I like this. I don't like Champagne. 105 00:05:10,040 --> 00:05:14,599 Speaker 2: I like I like Caaba, I love and prosecco. I love. 106 00:05:15,760 --> 00:05:20,359 Speaker 2: Call me Maria Stewart. What do you look for in 107 00:05:20,360 --> 00:05:20,880 Speaker 2: a cookbook? 108 00:05:22,279 --> 00:05:24,960 Speaker 5: I love things that are that are simple, that don't 109 00:05:25,000 --> 00:05:27,560 Speaker 5: have a thousand steps and a thousand. 110 00:05:27,279 --> 00:05:30,480 Speaker 2: Recipes or complicated equipment for that. 111 00:05:30,839 --> 00:05:35,440 Speaker 4: Get you a Julian Yeah, board out my fucking or 112 00:05:35,480 --> 00:05:38,680 Speaker 4: that thing to make a French puree of potatoes, you 113 00:05:38,839 --> 00:05:40,279 Speaker 4: need the riser. 114 00:05:40,720 --> 00:05:43,600 Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, I don't have to have one. Yes, probably 115 00:05:43,600 --> 00:05:44,520 Speaker 2: because of that. 116 00:05:44,720 --> 00:05:46,840 Speaker 4: Or may be making dumplings and they're like, get out 117 00:05:46,880 --> 00:05:50,000 Speaker 4: the dumpling maker. I like simple. 118 00:05:50,120 --> 00:05:54,320 Speaker 2: Food, really good. I like colorful food. Yes. I love 119 00:05:55,040 --> 00:05:55,920 Speaker 2: good pictures. 120 00:05:56,080 --> 00:05:58,560 Speaker 5: I love it when it's when the directions are clear, like, 121 00:05:58,720 --> 00:05:59,599 Speaker 5: but this is my favorite. 122 00:05:59,640 --> 00:06:01,760 Speaker 2: I was actual looking at this before I came here. 123 00:06:02,360 --> 00:06:03,920 Speaker 2: And I thought that I would bring it. 124 00:06:03,880 --> 00:06:05,480 Speaker 5: But I was like, oh, Eva probably has it, because 125 00:06:05,480 --> 00:06:07,360 Speaker 5: I think we talked about this once. This is one 126 00:06:07,400 --> 00:06:11,600 Speaker 5: of the best cookbooks, Solt that Acid Heat and there's 127 00:06:11,720 --> 00:06:14,280 Speaker 5: and there's a Netflix series yeah, and it's impressive. 128 00:06:14,640 --> 00:06:18,280 Speaker 4: Is one episode of Salt Acid. 129 00:06:19,160 --> 00:06:21,960 Speaker 2: I learned so much from this time. Always all your 130 00:06:22,040 --> 00:06:23,720 Speaker 2: chicken in your meat. Yeah. 131 00:06:23,760 --> 00:06:27,520 Speaker 5: But then she describes about, you know, roasting and what 132 00:06:27,800 --> 00:06:30,440 Speaker 5: happens when you roast, what happens when you poach, like 133 00:06:30,480 --> 00:06:35,160 Speaker 5: what happens to the protein. She explains everything so so clearly, 134 00:06:36,080 --> 00:06:38,520 Speaker 5: and she's teaching you something. So I always love to learn. 135 00:06:38,640 --> 00:06:41,400 Speaker 4: I love the acid wheel, the wheel of acid and 136 00:06:41,440 --> 00:06:44,640 Speaker 4: where the acids come from Africa, Asia, South America and. 137 00:06:44,640 --> 00:06:48,640 Speaker 2: North America, Europe. O god, I know, wonder how long 138 00:06:48,640 --> 00:06:51,440 Speaker 2: did your credit write this? I mean, this is so 139 00:06:51,440 --> 00:06:55,760 Speaker 2: well researched. But I love the illustrations. I want to say, 140 00:06:55,800 --> 00:06:58,680 Speaker 2: I love a good picture. I love picture. I love 141 00:06:58,680 --> 00:07:00,760 Speaker 2: a picture. If it doesn't have a picture, it really 142 00:07:00,800 --> 00:07:02,599 Speaker 2: pisses me off. But what about illustria. 143 00:07:02,640 --> 00:07:05,719 Speaker 5: I used to think that way, but now I'm I'm 144 00:07:05,760 --> 00:07:08,000 Speaker 5: really liking cookbooks that have illustrations. 145 00:07:08,040 --> 00:07:12,920 Speaker 2: And I have really nice illustrations. Yeah, they're nice. How 146 00:07:12,920 --> 00:07:15,960 Speaker 2: did you choose your recipes for your new cookbook? You 147 00:07:16,000 --> 00:07:16,240 Speaker 2: know what? 148 00:07:16,360 --> 00:07:20,880 Speaker 4: The first time I was given a directive of light 149 00:07:21,840 --> 00:07:25,760 Speaker 4: you know, ten main plates, ten beef, ten chicken, TENNS 150 00:07:25,800 --> 00:07:26,240 Speaker 4: ten and. 151 00:07:26,200 --> 00:07:28,720 Speaker 2: I really made dictate my dishes. 152 00:07:29,560 --> 00:07:33,760 Speaker 4: This time I vomited all my dishes with my co 153 00:07:33,840 --> 00:07:34,760 Speaker 4: writer and I was. 154 00:07:34,720 --> 00:07:37,480 Speaker 2: Like blah, and she goes, wow, you have a lot 155 00:07:37,520 --> 00:07:38,080 Speaker 2: of soups. 156 00:07:38,240 --> 00:07:43,480 Speaker 4: We should do you know, sofas that satisfy chapter because 157 00:07:43,480 --> 00:07:44,080 Speaker 4: I have so many. 158 00:07:44,240 --> 00:07:45,680 Speaker 2: And I was like, oh, that's a good one, like 159 00:07:45,920 --> 00:07:48,240 Speaker 2: and so she didn't. It was a different it's a 160 00:07:48,240 --> 00:07:51,040 Speaker 2: different publisher too, and so they were like what do 161 00:07:51,080 --> 00:07:51,480 Speaker 2: you want? 162 00:07:51,520 --> 00:07:53,320 Speaker 4: And I wanted to do it kind of like in 163 00:07:53,360 --> 00:07:55,800 Speaker 4: my journey of how I did it, and then also 164 00:07:57,120 --> 00:07:59,680 Speaker 4: the memory and the people I wanted to honor, Like 165 00:07:59,720 --> 00:08:02,560 Speaker 4: I mean, there was this amazing There is an amazing no. 166 00:08:02,600 --> 00:08:06,280 Speaker 7: Bile sabcia in my cookbook that I got from this 167 00:08:06,520 --> 00:08:11,720 Speaker 7: chef in Guadala Fara and uh Fabian and he was amazing, 168 00:08:11,760 --> 00:08:14,440 Speaker 7: and I was like this, people have to know about this, 169 00:08:14,600 --> 00:08:17,320 Speaker 7: Like for vegans who don't want to eat. 170 00:08:17,280 --> 00:08:20,480 Speaker 2: Our city check never, but you're're going to make it tomorrow. 171 00:08:20,960 --> 00:08:22,960 Speaker 2: And so I was like, that has to be in it. 172 00:08:23,000 --> 00:08:23,440 Speaker 2: So it didn't. 173 00:08:23,480 --> 00:08:27,160 Speaker 4: I didn't let it, let the table of contents dictate. 174 00:08:27,320 --> 00:08:30,080 Speaker 4: I just wrote and wrote down all my things. And 175 00:08:30,080 --> 00:08:33,199 Speaker 4: then once we sorted it out, she would go, you're 176 00:08:33,240 --> 00:08:38,199 Speaker 4: really thin on and right like or do you? Or 177 00:08:38,559 --> 00:08:42,559 Speaker 4: she goes, should we move tacos out of and I 178 00:08:42,640 --> 00:08:45,280 Speaker 4: said the meal. Tacos are a meal. It's not a 179 00:08:45,400 --> 00:08:47,840 Speaker 4: it's not an appetite. So she's like, I think we 180 00:08:47,880 --> 00:08:51,720 Speaker 4: need a taco this chapter, right, And I was like okay. 181 00:08:51,720 --> 00:08:54,240 Speaker 4: So then it forced me to build out chapter and 182 00:08:54,280 --> 00:08:55,520 Speaker 4: so yeah, but it's fun. 183 00:08:55,559 --> 00:08:57,600 Speaker 2: It's a lot of fun. It is so fun. I 184 00:08:57,600 --> 00:08:57,960 Speaker 2: loved it. 185 00:08:58,000 --> 00:09:01,200 Speaker 5: I have to say every day days my husband is like, 186 00:09:01,280 --> 00:09:05,240 Speaker 5: when are you going to make that pasta Eva's past thanks. 187 00:09:05,320 --> 00:09:05,480 Speaker 2: Yes. 188 00:09:06,160 --> 00:09:08,960 Speaker 5: Every day he's like, oh, so, where are you going 189 00:09:09,040 --> 00:09:12,959 Speaker 5: to talk about? 190 00:09:14,600 --> 00:09:18,120 Speaker 2: After the break, we get into the first cookbooks. 191 00:09:17,559 --> 00:09:21,400 Speaker 5: Ever published, one that involves a plagiarizing scandal. 192 00:09:21,720 --> 00:09:28,360 Speaker 2: That's when we come back. We didn't always have a 193 00:09:28,440 --> 00:09:31,319 Speaker 2: printing press, So how were people making cookbooks back in 194 00:09:31,360 --> 00:09:34,400 Speaker 2: the day? How were they passing on all of these recipes? 195 00:09:34,640 --> 00:09:38,119 Speaker 5: So in the days before the printing press was invented, 196 00:09:38,600 --> 00:09:41,480 Speaker 5: and it was invented in Germany in fourteen forty, so 197 00:09:41,920 --> 00:09:44,960 Speaker 5: right before it was invented, kitchen manuals were handwritten. They 198 00:09:44,960 --> 00:09:48,280 Speaker 5: were handwritten, they were handwritten, they were copied, and they 199 00:09:48,280 --> 00:09:52,840 Speaker 5: were sold to professional chefs, and the content in these 200 00:09:52,880 --> 00:09:55,040 Speaker 5: books was similar and together they. 201 00:09:54,960 --> 00:09:57,280 Speaker 2: Paid the way for a cookbook culture. 202 00:09:57,320 --> 00:10:02,079 Speaker 5: But it was basically, you know, many scripts, so there's 203 00:10:02,160 --> 00:10:05,360 Speaker 5: this idea you know, your aunt that you mentioned, or 204 00:10:05,400 --> 00:10:08,439 Speaker 5: your mom or whatever writing down the recipes. So there 205 00:10:08,520 --> 00:10:10,920 Speaker 5: was of course always that the family recipes. There was 206 00:10:10,960 --> 00:10:14,719 Speaker 5: also this culture of copying them and handing them mat 207 00:10:14,760 --> 00:10:18,360 Speaker 5: to professional chefs, which already gives you a sense that 208 00:10:18,679 --> 00:10:22,160 Speaker 5: the professional the chefs were literate. So this is when 209 00:10:22,320 --> 00:10:23,320 Speaker 5: you think of the middle age. 210 00:10:23,400 --> 00:10:26,360 Speaker 4: I was thinking about them, which is really interesting, especially 211 00:10:26,520 --> 00:10:27,840 Speaker 4: women who want read. 212 00:10:27,960 --> 00:10:30,720 Speaker 2: Like when was the first cookbook? Was there first? Like 213 00:10:30,920 --> 00:10:32,839 Speaker 2: recorded year of the first cookbook? 214 00:10:32,920 --> 00:10:36,240 Speaker 5: So there're five of the first five cookbooks, so fourteen 215 00:10:36,320 --> 00:10:40,200 Speaker 5: forty the printing was invented in Germany, and cookbooks were 216 00:10:40,360 --> 00:10:45,080 Speaker 5: right up there among the first printed books Bibles, Bible, 217 00:10:46,320 --> 00:10:47,920 Speaker 5: it was Homer's Odyssey. 218 00:10:47,760 --> 00:10:51,000 Speaker 2: Okay, and it was good books. Wow, So there were 219 00:10:51,000 --> 00:10:51,440 Speaker 2: a few of them. 220 00:10:51,440 --> 00:10:55,440 Speaker 5: There was one super interesting one, a German cookbook that 221 00:10:55,559 --> 00:10:58,720 Speaker 5: was published in Nuremberg in fourteen eighty five. It's called 222 00:10:58,800 --> 00:11:02,040 Speaker 5: Mastering the Kitchen and it includes the first recipe for 223 00:11:02,200 --> 00:11:06,560 Speaker 5: jelly donut. But there's one that I'm super fascinated by 224 00:11:06,559 --> 00:11:11,000 Speaker 5: her too, the one that involves the plagiarizing scandal. Yeah, 225 00:11:11,280 --> 00:11:15,200 Speaker 5: so this one is a manuscript. We talked about this 226 00:11:15,240 --> 00:11:22,080 Speaker 5: one another, Yeah, the Fidale here the Roman style macaroni 227 00:11:22,559 --> 00:11:24,240 Speaker 5: in the Vermicelli, which is the Fideale. 228 00:11:25,080 --> 00:11:27,400 Speaker 2: So this is fourteen sixty five. 229 00:11:27,520 --> 00:11:30,800 Speaker 5: It was the most important of these, you know, manuscripts 230 00:11:30,920 --> 00:11:34,080 Speaker 5: that were handwritten, copied and sold. It's called The Art 231 00:11:34,120 --> 00:11:37,240 Speaker 5: of Cooking and it's by a chef named Master Martino, 232 00:11:37,320 --> 00:11:41,640 Speaker 5: and he was the most famous chef of his time. 233 00:11:41,679 --> 00:11:44,400 Speaker 2: He was he was Roman. Yeah, he was from Rome. 234 00:11:44,800 --> 00:11:47,960 Speaker 2: He was Roman. And it's one of the best marks 235 00:11:48,000 --> 00:11:53,040 Speaker 2: of early European Gastromic literature in the sense that the 236 00:11:53,160 --> 00:11:56,120 Speaker 2: sort of end of the Middle Ages, beginning of the Renaissance. 237 00:11:56,320 --> 00:11:58,720 Speaker 2: So this is fourteen sixty five. 238 00:11:59,400 --> 00:12:00,640 Speaker 5: But then one of the. 239 00:12:00,559 --> 00:12:04,320 Speaker 2: First published cookbooks is this one, which is what year, 240 00:12:04,679 --> 00:12:08,400 Speaker 2: This is fourteen seventy, so pretty early. 241 00:12:08,559 --> 00:12:11,880 Speaker 5: So Virtilo Melsacci was his name, and he goes by 242 00:12:11,920 --> 00:12:15,880 Speaker 5: Platina by the name Platina. So he was not a cook. 243 00:12:15,960 --> 00:12:18,240 Speaker 5: And this is what's really interesting to me. Platina was 244 00:12:18,280 --> 00:12:20,680 Speaker 5: not a cook. He had been to Rome nine years 245 00:12:20,679 --> 00:12:21,440 Speaker 5: before this game. 246 00:12:21,360 --> 00:12:23,719 Speaker 2: Was a scholar. He was a scholar. He was a 247 00:12:23,800 --> 00:12:25,960 Speaker 2: Vatican librarian who was a scholar. 248 00:12:26,440 --> 00:12:29,319 Speaker 5: He had been to Rome nine years earlier. He'd had 249 00:12:29,320 --> 00:12:31,160 Speaker 5: an amazing meal prepared. 250 00:12:30,800 --> 00:12:31,960 Speaker 2: By that guy. 251 00:12:32,120 --> 00:12:36,959 Speaker 4: Got this guy, Yeah, he Martino from Martino and he. 252 00:12:37,280 --> 00:12:40,599 Speaker 5: Plagiarized before they were copyright last before there was. 253 00:12:40,760 --> 00:12:42,480 Speaker 2: He he was like, I'm gonna write down these recipes. 254 00:12:42,600 --> 00:12:44,839 Speaker 2: I'm gonna write down these recipes. I'm gonna put my 255 00:12:44,960 --> 00:12:47,920 Speaker 2: name on that. He does mention his name. I had 256 00:12:47,920 --> 00:12:50,560 Speaker 2: these recipes best cook in Rome, Da Da da da. 257 00:12:52,160 --> 00:12:55,960 Speaker 2: And then but so what happened? So nothing happened because 258 00:12:56,000 --> 00:13:00,840 Speaker 2: there were no you know, was Martino like he's probably yeah, 259 00:13:00,880 --> 00:13:05,000 Speaker 2: he was probably like what the fuck? But yeah, this guy, 260 00:13:05,200 --> 00:13:05,680 Speaker 2: this guy is. 261 00:13:05,679 --> 00:13:08,680 Speaker 5: A scholar, right, But he talks about like there's a 262 00:13:08,679 --> 00:13:10,840 Speaker 5: whole section on setting the table, on. 263 00:13:11,000 --> 00:13:13,480 Speaker 2: Salting, it's like the pre salt aside. 264 00:13:14,960 --> 00:13:17,199 Speaker 5: But he also has the recipes and he and he 265 00:13:17,280 --> 00:13:23,240 Speaker 5: talks about you know, nutritional asks of it and food 266 00:13:23,360 --> 00:13:28,560 Speaker 5: safety and medical recipes and so it's kind of set 267 00:13:28,600 --> 00:13:31,559 Speaker 5: a tone of you know, what you can include in 268 00:13:31,600 --> 00:13:35,000 Speaker 5: a cookbook other than just the recipes. So it was 269 00:13:35,040 --> 00:13:38,920 Speaker 5: a huge success. He actually plating app he plagiarized it. 270 00:13:38,960 --> 00:13:41,920 Speaker 5: But he also spent some time in prison for plotting 271 00:13:41,920 --> 00:13:43,480 Speaker 5: to kill the pope. 272 00:13:43,559 --> 00:13:48,839 Speaker 4: At the time what he looks like sounds like. 273 00:13:48,800 --> 00:13:52,240 Speaker 3: A horrible person, but he loved one of the flagiarizing, 274 00:13:52,480 --> 00:13:57,000 Speaker 3: plot kill plotting, the killing the like, no, let's move on, 275 00:13:57,240 --> 00:14:00,920 Speaker 3: let's move from back, Let's not give them his flowers. 276 00:14:01,000 --> 00:14:03,079 Speaker 2: Okay, but I will say some wait. 277 00:14:02,960 --> 00:14:05,920 Speaker 4: This was Europe, so this is all europe whiz cookbooks 278 00:14:06,000 --> 00:14:08,800 Speaker 4: or the idea of cookbooks come into Mexico and like 279 00:14:08,920 --> 00:14:12,600 Speaker 4: Latin America because you know, Mexican cuisine is one of 280 00:14:12,640 --> 00:14:16,720 Speaker 4: only two cuisines honored Bionesco as a cultural treasure, French 281 00:14:16,720 --> 00:14:20,320 Speaker 4: cuisine and Mexican cuisine because you can trace the roots 282 00:14:20,400 --> 00:14:25,720 Speaker 4: to its inception, right, and so because of that, how 283 00:14:26,320 --> 00:14:29,200 Speaker 4: did they pass down these recipes or these. 284 00:14:29,520 --> 00:14:32,520 Speaker 2: You know plates and these iconic dishes. 285 00:14:32,720 --> 00:14:34,760 Speaker 4: Yeah, if they didn't write it down, like when did 286 00:14:34,760 --> 00:14:35,760 Speaker 4: it come to Mexico. 287 00:14:36,000 --> 00:14:38,760 Speaker 5: Yeah, that's such an interesting question because we don't actually 288 00:14:38,800 --> 00:14:42,880 Speaker 5: see the first published cookbook until eighteen thirty one Mexico. 289 00:14:43,480 --> 00:14:45,640 Speaker 2: But that's late, it's really late. 290 00:14:45,760 --> 00:14:49,880 Speaker 5: So there has been already this flourishing cookbook culture. I mean, 291 00:14:49,960 --> 00:14:52,680 Speaker 5: fourteen seventy they weren't even expensive. 292 00:14:52,280 --> 00:14:54,160 Speaker 2: To buy a cookbook. It wasn't expensive, it. 293 00:14:54,080 --> 00:14:57,120 Speaker 5: Was cheap, and so so it's interesting. So you know, 294 00:14:57,160 --> 00:15:01,200 Speaker 5: of course, in pre Columbia and Mesoamerica, indigeno cultures recorded 295 00:15:01,560 --> 00:15:07,240 Speaker 5: their culinary practices in codexes, but nothing like a recipe, like, 296 00:15:07,320 --> 00:15:11,160 Speaker 5: no cookbooks there were, you know, but there was this documentation, 297 00:15:11,840 --> 00:15:14,160 Speaker 5: and so by the time of the conquest, of. 298 00:15:14,120 --> 00:15:16,080 Speaker 2: Course there's this flourishing cookbook culture. 299 00:15:16,760 --> 00:15:19,920 Speaker 5: And in Mexico the use of the printing press was 300 00:15:20,000 --> 00:15:25,920 Speaker 5: limited to printing ecclesiastical documents, legal documents, nothing as sort 301 00:15:25,960 --> 00:15:30,239 Speaker 5: of superfluous as a cookbook. But all of these cookbooks, 302 00:15:30,240 --> 00:15:32,640 Speaker 5: and you just mentioned France, and this one it's a 303 00:15:32,680 --> 00:15:35,240 Speaker 5: little bit later, this is sixteen fifty three, but this 304 00:15:35,360 --> 00:15:40,000 Speaker 5: is one of the earliest French cookbooks, and the French 305 00:15:40,040 --> 00:15:42,320 Speaker 5: cook by Lover and he was the most famous chef 306 00:15:42,360 --> 00:15:42,840 Speaker 5: of the time. 307 00:15:43,040 --> 00:15:43,960 Speaker 2: So this cookbook. 308 00:15:44,040 --> 00:15:48,280 Speaker 5: All of these cookbooks existed in Mexico, So Spanish cookbooks, 309 00:15:48,320 --> 00:15:52,960 Speaker 5: Italian cookbooks, French cookbooks existed in Mexico. There are two 310 00:15:53,120 --> 00:15:56,440 Speaker 5: manuscripts kind of important ones, not like just like a 311 00:15:56,480 --> 00:16:00,080 Speaker 5: personal you know, your death, but one of them is 312 00:16:00,160 --> 00:16:04,880 Speaker 5: from Fried the Selayo, who's a friar, and the ones 313 00:16:04,880 --> 00:16:09,080 Speaker 5: from the convent attributed to the non la Cruz. 314 00:16:09,800 --> 00:16:13,480 Speaker 2: We see recipes for Pierre. There are always all roads 315 00:16:13,560 --> 00:16:17,240 Speaker 2: lead to people, all roads. We need to put that 316 00:16:17,320 --> 00:16:21,760 Speaker 2: on a shirt. Of course. It's one of the earliest 317 00:16:21,760 --> 00:16:22,800 Speaker 2: residents written down. 318 00:16:24,000 --> 00:16:26,920 Speaker 5: More leg colonial suite, sort of the types of candies 319 00:16:26,920 --> 00:16:28,800 Speaker 5: that we talked to in our candy episode last season, 320 00:16:29,280 --> 00:16:32,480 Speaker 5: and so we start seeing the blending of these you know, 321 00:16:32,600 --> 00:16:36,040 Speaker 5: indigenous traditions and ingredients with the. 322 00:16:36,480 --> 00:16:37,880 Speaker 2: Europeans, so all of that. 323 00:16:38,120 --> 00:16:40,400 Speaker 5: The people that were doing the actual cooking in the 324 00:16:40,440 --> 00:16:45,120 Speaker 5: convents were indigenous cooks and African slaves. They were bringing 325 00:16:45,200 --> 00:16:48,160 Speaker 5: the sasson in Mexican cuisine and they were able to 326 00:16:48,760 --> 00:16:51,880 Speaker 5: it was in their blood, it was in and so 327 00:16:52,040 --> 00:16:55,480 Speaker 5: even if their voices were recorded in writing, we could 328 00:16:55,520 --> 00:16:59,120 Speaker 5: imagine these flavors by you know, reading reading their lives. 329 00:16:59,240 --> 00:17:01,920 Speaker 4: Yeah, but it's a shame because a lot of indigenous 330 00:17:01,920 --> 00:17:04,679 Speaker 4: and indigenous books in African slaves would never get the 331 00:17:04,720 --> 00:17:05,240 Speaker 4: credit for. 332 00:17:05,240 --> 00:17:07,880 Speaker 2: The cuisines today, do you know what I mean? 333 00:17:09,560 --> 00:17:12,320 Speaker 4: That is like such a shame that we didn't record 334 00:17:13,000 --> 00:17:16,240 Speaker 4: those or we couldn't, or they didn't or they stole. 335 00:17:15,960 --> 00:17:17,800 Speaker 5: It, or they stole it, or they burned it or 336 00:17:17,840 --> 00:17:20,480 Speaker 5: they destroyed it or you know, you know all of that, 337 00:17:20,760 --> 00:17:23,000 Speaker 5: so we actually don't see. 338 00:17:23,440 --> 00:17:25,280 Speaker 2: So it was like so it was over like two 339 00:17:25,359 --> 00:17:28,520 Speaker 2: hundred and fifty years before the first cookbook started to 340 00:17:28,560 --> 00:17:30,520 Speaker 2: be printed in Mexico. It was like a long time. 341 00:17:30,640 --> 00:17:33,359 Speaker 5: It was a really really long time. Yeah, two hundred 342 00:17:33,400 --> 00:17:38,320 Speaker 5: and fifty years. The first one eighteen thirty one Cosineo 343 00:17:38,359 --> 00:17:42,440 Speaker 5: Mechicano and also Novismo Cosina, and I love the Novismo one. 344 00:17:42,520 --> 00:17:46,960 Speaker 5: It's it's dedicated to Mexican Sinuitas with the best recipes 345 00:17:47,000 --> 00:17:51,359 Speaker 5: prepared simply and economically in the Spanish, French, Italian or 346 00:17:51,520 --> 00:17:54,240 Speaker 5: English way without losing the Mexican tests on. 347 00:17:54,480 --> 00:17:58,600 Speaker 2: Oh so all of these the recipes are still very European, 348 00:17:58,680 --> 00:18:01,760 Speaker 2: but with a touch of mexicanists, with a touch of 349 00:18:02,080 --> 00:18:04,760 Speaker 2: because of the ingredients with the tomato, the Chile like 350 00:18:05,000 --> 00:18:08,280 Speaker 2: these Italian ones. They don't sound like Italian flute at all. 351 00:18:08,320 --> 00:18:11,280 Speaker 2: But now were these were these prop books by women, 352 00:18:11,520 --> 00:18:13,800 Speaker 2: even though because it was dedicated to Senorita, but it 353 00:18:13,840 --> 00:18:16,160 Speaker 2: wasn't written. We don't know who wrote the recipes. 354 00:18:16,240 --> 00:18:19,280 Speaker 5: So when was the first one, the first recipe, the 355 00:18:19,440 --> 00:18:21,120 Speaker 5: first first cookbook written by a. 356 00:18:21,080 --> 00:18:25,680 Speaker 2: Woman is in eighteen ninety six. We sent that Ulo wrote. 357 00:18:27,480 --> 00:18:30,959 Speaker 5: And this book is really interesting because she had a 358 00:18:30,960 --> 00:18:35,640 Speaker 5: column in a newspaper Ina in Morala, and she solicited 359 00:18:35,880 --> 00:18:40,600 Speaker 5: her readers from across the country to send her their recipes. 360 00:18:40,800 --> 00:18:42,200 Speaker 2: She would put them in the book, and she put 361 00:18:42,200 --> 00:18:42,680 Speaker 2: them in the book. 362 00:18:42,720 --> 00:18:45,359 Speaker 5: So for the first time in eighteen ninety six, the 363 00:18:45,440 --> 00:18:49,040 Speaker 5: people are a woman in Baja could see what a 364 00:18:49,119 --> 00:18:53,240 Speaker 5: woman in media you know you got done was cooked. 365 00:18:53,560 --> 00:18:55,360 Speaker 2: So this was completely. 366 00:18:55,000 --> 00:18:59,000 Speaker 4: Grapul you said often, there's the university of the University 367 00:18:59,040 --> 00:19:01,800 Speaker 4: of Texas has a lot or just cookbook collection. University 368 00:19:01,840 --> 00:19:05,520 Speaker 4: of Texas, San Antonio, yes, saying oh, whoop, whoop, San Antonio. 369 00:19:05,800 --> 00:19:11,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, whether they have oh the biggest collection of Mexican clooks. Yeah, 370 00:19:11,920 --> 00:19:13,199 Speaker 2: in the in the world, and. 371 00:19:13,400 --> 00:19:16,880 Speaker 5: Something outside outside of Mexico City, outside of the Atabase 372 00:19:16,920 --> 00:19:18,000 Speaker 5: collection of Mexico City. 373 00:19:18,000 --> 00:19:20,320 Speaker 4: It's utsa and some of the cookbooks date back to 374 00:19:20,400 --> 00:19:21,480 Speaker 4: seventeen eighty nine. 375 00:19:21,720 --> 00:19:25,560 Speaker 5: Yeah, they have a manuscript dated to a seventeen eighty 376 00:19:25,640 --> 00:19:28,919 Speaker 5: nine and we'll include the link. But a selection of 377 00:19:28,960 --> 00:19:31,640 Speaker 5: the collection has been digitized, so it's online and it's 378 00:19:31,640 --> 00:19:36,359 Speaker 5: available for anybody to view, to study and to understand, you. 379 00:19:36,280 --> 00:19:38,880 Speaker 2: Know, the the food ways of Mexico. 380 00:19:39,000 --> 00:19:42,040 Speaker 5: I bought a special cuckoo, another special cookbook, okay, that 381 00:19:42,119 --> 00:19:44,199 Speaker 5: I wanted to share when we come back, and we 382 00:19:44,240 --> 00:19:47,240 Speaker 5: could talk about how book, a cookbook in this case 383 00:19:48,000 --> 00:19:50,280 Speaker 5: can be super powerful in a very different way. 384 00:19:50,359 --> 00:19:53,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, so don't go anywhere. We've got more after the break. 385 00:19:54,840 --> 00:19:57,600 Speaker 2: There's a cookbook you brought today. I know you want 386 00:19:57,640 --> 00:20:00,399 Speaker 2: to talk about it because it's it's like super powerful. 387 00:20:00,720 --> 00:20:04,560 Speaker 5: It's so powerful. It's called ric Memoria. And this is 388 00:20:04,560 --> 00:20:07,280 Speaker 5: a super interesting project and that he's cooking as a 389 00:20:07,320 --> 00:20:13,959 Speaker 5: form of activism. This is a collaboration between LASS and 390 00:20:14,000 --> 00:20:16,720 Speaker 5: this is a group of women. It's a collective made 391 00:20:16,880 --> 00:20:19,240 Speaker 5: up of about one hundred and thirty women that have 392 00:20:19,400 --> 00:20:23,360 Speaker 5: taken it upon themselves to physically look for the remains 393 00:20:23,359 --> 00:20:26,640 Speaker 5: of their husbands, their brothers, their sons, their grandsons, it's 394 00:20:26,640 --> 00:20:29,800 Speaker 5: their sisters. And so it's just to give a little 395 00:20:30,000 --> 00:20:32,320 Speaker 5: background of that of the actions that led to this 396 00:20:32,920 --> 00:20:36,080 Speaker 5: this book. There's actually two books, one from Juanto and 397 00:20:36,119 --> 00:20:40,280 Speaker 5: one from Sinaloa. Since nineteen sixty four, over one hundred 398 00:20:40,280 --> 00:20:43,199 Speaker 5: and twelve thousand people have disappeared in Mexico due to 399 00:20:43,400 --> 00:20:48,000 Speaker 5: drug track efficking or corrupt public officials, military police, anything. 400 00:20:48,119 --> 00:20:52,960 Speaker 4: So they wanted to honor the person's memories exactly these recipes. 401 00:20:53,240 --> 00:20:56,600 Speaker 5: Yeah, honor their memories and this idea that sometimes food 402 00:20:56,720 --> 00:20:59,600 Speaker 5: is not about physically nourishing or say, shiating hunger. 403 00:21:00,119 --> 00:21:01,919 Speaker 2: The mere active cooking is what. 404 00:21:01,920 --> 00:21:05,800 Speaker 5: Unites us and the person's memories. And I think you 405 00:21:05,800 --> 00:21:08,960 Speaker 5: could say that about any cookbook, but in this particular case, 406 00:21:09,920 --> 00:21:13,280 Speaker 5: it's the idea that the person's memories are honored whenever 407 00:21:13,840 --> 00:21:17,520 Speaker 5: and wherever the recipes are or prepared, and they're meant 408 00:21:17,600 --> 00:21:20,640 Speaker 5: to take action. The books themselves are meant to take 409 00:21:20,680 --> 00:21:24,320 Speaker 5: action or learn new recipes, feed, nurture memories, to remember 410 00:21:24,359 --> 00:21:25,000 Speaker 5: to resist. 411 00:21:25,080 --> 00:21:27,359 Speaker 4: We talked about this in the Food for Good episode 412 00:21:27,480 --> 00:21:31,560 Speaker 4: where there is a shelter in Mexico City that lets 413 00:21:31,600 --> 00:21:34,399 Speaker 4: all of these refugees cooked dishes from their home because 414 00:21:34,400 --> 00:21:37,840 Speaker 4: it's so nurturing. And you know, this cookbook being like 415 00:21:38,359 --> 00:21:42,400 Speaker 4: an act of just remembering these people have disappeared. 416 00:21:42,480 --> 00:21:44,320 Speaker 2: It is an act of like defiance. 417 00:21:44,440 --> 00:21:47,440 Speaker 4: It's meant to take action, and just remembering these people 418 00:21:47,520 --> 00:21:51,840 Speaker 4: is going against you know, whatever displaced them or whatever 419 00:21:51,840 --> 00:21:53,959 Speaker 4: made them disappear. So many people, you know, have been 420 00:21:53,960 --> 00:21:56,000 Speaker 4: displaced because of the Bassetto program. And then I think 421 00:21:56,000 --> 00:21:59,000 Speaker 4: thirties or NAFTA or you know, who knows why. But 422 00:21:59,040 --> 00:22:00,840 Speaker 4: I think it's beautiful. 423 00:22:00,960 --> 00:22:05,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, but it's literally beautiful, not what is no, No, it's beautiful, gorgeous, 424 00:22:05,320 --> 00:22:05,880 Speaker 2: so gorgeous. 425 00:22:05,920 --> 00:22:09,800 Speaker 5: It's a photographer named is Sahara Gomez Luccini. She's been 426 00:22:09,840 --> 00:22:13,560 Speaker 5: documenting Les's work and pitched the idea of a cookbook 427 00:22:13,600 --> 00:22:16,520 Speaker 5: in twenty eighteen. And she herself is the daughter of 428 00:22:16,520 --> 00:22:20,120 Speaker 5: an Argentine journalist who fled the country during the nineteen 429 00:22:20,200 --> 00:22:23,280 Speaker 5: seventy six through eighty three military dictatorship. 430 00:22:23,400 --> 00:22:24,240 Speaker 2: She grew up in Spain. 431 00:22:25,119 --> 00:22:28,240 Speaker 5: She lives in Mexico now, but she remembers hearing about 432 00:22:28,240 --> 00:22:31,840 Speaker 5: her father talk about Loso Sabaracidos yea and in conversations 433 00:22:31,840 --> 00:22:34,399 Speaker 5: with friends who were in exile and to her, it 434 00:22:34,520 --> 00:22:37,120 Speaker 5: was very important that they disappeared, not became this sort 435 00:22:37,160 --> 00:22:41,280 Speaker 5: of distant mythological figure. But look at this the second 436 00:22:41,320 --> 00:22:46,159 Speaker 5: free and it's beautiful photographs. And then the person who 437 00:22:46,240 --> 00:22:50,240 Speaker 5: is yeah, she disappeared to thirty years years old. So 438 00:22:50,440 --> 00:22:54,199 Speaker 5: Manasanda la her sister, so continued, so powerful, and the 439 00:22:54,280 --> 00:22:58,800 Speaker 5: photographs are so incredibly beautiful. It's so beautiful. 440 00:23:01,320 --> 00:23:03,400 Speaker 2: Come and say thank you everybody, thank you for listening. 441 00:23:03,840 --> 00:23:05,120 Speaker 5: Can you say thank you for listening? 442 00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:12,119 Speaker 2: And action? Thank you, thank you for listening, Thank you 443 00:23:12,200 --> 00:23:13,400 Speaker 2: for listening everybody. 444 00:23:13,440 --> 00:23:16,879 Speaker 4: Santi decided to join us on the last couple of 445 00:23:16,880 --> 00:23:20,159 Speaker 4: minutes of the podcast. I love that you got to 446 00:23:20,200 --> 00:23:21,920 Speaker 4: explore your pok episode. 447 00:23:22,119 --> 00:23:23,560 Speaker 2: That means so much. 448 00:23:23,640 --> 00:23:25,400 Speaker 5: Thank you for indulging me. 449 00:23:27,160 --> 00:23:30,199 Speaker 2: I share the passion, I share the fashion. Thank you 450 00:23:30,240 --> 00:23:31,280 Speaker 2: so much for listening. 451 00:23:34,640 --> 00:23:37,800 Speaker 4: Hungary for History is a hyphen Media production in partnership 452 00:23:37,800 --> 00:23:40,240 Speaker 4: with Iheart's Michael podcast Network. 453 00:23:40,359 --> 00:23:43,200 Speaker 5: For more of your favorite shows, visit the iHeartRadio app, 454 00:23:43,359 --> 00:23:46,440 Speaker 5: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.