1 00:00:00,480 --> 00:00:03,480 Speaker 1: This is Dana Perkins and you're listening to Switched on 2 00:00:03,800 --> 00:00:07,640 Speaker 1: the BNAF podcast. BNF hosts a series of summits and 3 00:00:07,680 --> 00:00:10,600 Speaker 1: forums around the world, and some of these events take 4 00:00:10,640 --> 00:00:14,080 Speaker 1: on distinct themes within the energy transition. Our summit in 5 00:00:14,160 --> 00:00:17,440 Speaker 1: Munich was a great example where the conversations on stage 6 00:00:17,600 --> 00:00:21,639 Speaker 1: focused on industrial decarbonization. On today's show, we're bringing you 7 00:00:21,760 --> 00:00:25,000 Speaker 1: the opening panel from the BNF Summit in Munich, which 8 00:00:25,040 --> 00:00:28,480 Speaker 1: took place earlier in June. The panel was titled the 9 00:00:28,520 --> 00:00:32,280 Speaker 1: Next Decade of Clean Industry Manufacturing Does Europe need to 10 00:00:32,320 --> 00:00:35,760 Speaker 1: become more protectionist? The panelists were open about their views. 11 00:00:35,840 --> 00:00:39,520 Speaker 1: They discussed policy from import tariffs to domestic content targets 12 00:00:39,680 --> 00:00:42,559 Speaker 1: and whether these policies recently are showing a sign of 13 00:00:42,600 --> 00:00:45,960 Speaker 1: a more protectionist stance coming out of the EU when 14 00:00:46,000 --> 00:00:48,680 Speaker 1: it comes to manufacturing. They get into how these could 15 00:00:48,760 --> 00:00:52,919 Speaker 1: impact clean energy and electric vehicles. On this panel, we 16 00:00:52,920 --> 00:00:56,640 Speaker 1: were joined by Herbert Diese, Chairman of Infinion and the 17 00:00:56,640 --> 00:01:01,120 Speaker 1: Mobility House, alongside Yasek Trucinsky, Deputy head of Unit net 18 00:01:01,200 --> 00:01:05,039 Speaker 1: zero Industries Sustainable in Circular Products at the European Commission, 19 00:01:05,360 --> 00:01:09,600 Speaker 1: along with Jan Vincent, Chief Executive officer of Automotive Sales Company, 20 00:01:09,800 --> 00:01:14,120 Speaker 1: and Hawkan Voldaal, chief executive officer at Nell Hydrogen. The 21 00:01:14,160 --> 00:01:17,840 Speaker 1: conversation was moderated by John Moore, chief executive officer at 22 00:01:17,840 --> 00:01:20,680 Speaker 1: Bloomberg and EF. To find out more about BNF's events 23 00:01:20,720 --> 00:01:22,600 Speaker 1: and to see some of the videos coming out of 24 00:01:22,640 --> 00:01:26,919 Speaker 1: this and other events, head to BNEF dot com Forward 25 00:01:26,920 --> 00:01:29,440 Speaker 1: Slash Summit. But now let's listen to this panel and 26 00:01:29,480 --> 00:01:37,520 Speaker 1: hear what they think about the future of clean industry manufacturing. 27 00:01:43,240 --> 00:01:46,840 Speaker 2: So the energy transition, it's a two hundred trillion dollar opportunity, 28 00:01:46,920 --> 00:01:52,480 Speaker 2: it's multidecade. Also, you know, three four decades, the question 29 00:01:52,600 --> 00:01:56,480 Speaker 2: of how will regions change, how will they be transformed 30 00:01:56,880 --> 00:02:00,920 Speaker 2: is on everyone's lips. The IRA sort of eighteen months 31 00:02:00,960 --> 00:02:03,960 Speaker 2: or so ago really changed the game and really raise 32 00:02:04,040 --> 00:02:08,720 Speaker 2: the focus on manufacturing and what should be built in 33 00:02:09,120 --> 00:02:11,320 Speaker 2: what region. So that's really what we're talking about here 34 00:02:11,360 --> 00:02:14,800 Speaker 2: is how does Europe now position itself to be a 35 00:02:14,840 --> 00:02:19,000 Speaker 2: winner and a leader in the new clean economy. And 36 00:02:19,320 --> 00:02:21,240 Speaker 2: we're really going to talk about this in terms of 37 00:02:21,800 --> 00:02:24,720 Speaker 2: two questions. One is what should be made in Europe? 38 00:02:24,880 --> 00:02:29,079 Speaker 2: How do we decide what gets made? And then we're 39 00:02:29,120 --> 00:02:31,720 Speaker 2: going to talk about trade and then how should things 40 00:02:31,760 --> 00:02:35,119 Speaker 2: be bought and sold and traded from Europe with other 41 00:02:35,440 --> 00:02:38,760 Speaker 2: parts of the world. So first off, I am going 42 00:02:38,800 --> 00:02:43,440 Speaker 2: to talk to as Yes from European Commission about the 43 00:02:43,480 --> 00:02:46,400 Speaker 2: net Zero Industry Act. So it's popularly described as the 44 00:02:46,520 --> 00:02:49,800 Speaker 2: response to IRA. Maybe you could say a little bit 45 00:02:49,840 --> 00:02:53,120 Speaker 2: about the act, the goal of the act and the 46 00:02:53,200 --> 00:02:53,960 Speaker 2: key features. 47 00:02:54,800 --> 00:02:55,320 Speaker 3: Thanks a lot. 48 00:02:55,440 --> 00:02:58,200 Speaker 4: Indeed, it's part of the response, I would say. So 49 00:02:58,240 --> 00:03:00,760 Speaker 4: the Nazer Industry Act, it's all about scaling up the 50 00:03:00,800 --> 00:03:05,240 Speaker 4: production in the EU of nazero technologies solar, pv heat pumps, 51 00:03:05,240 --> 00:03:08,720 Speaker 4: wind turbines and so on. It enters into force next month. 52 00:03:09,960 --> 00:03:13,320 Speaker 4: This objective of scaling up production is quantified. We want 53 00:03:13,360 --> 00:03:16,720 Speaker 4: to ensure that by twenty thirty at least forty percent 54 00:03:16,880 --> 00:03:20,680 Speaker 4: of those technologies that we deploy in Europe are made here. 55 00:03:20,919 --> 00:03:23,079 Speaker 4: This is the kind of a minimum that takes into 56 00:03:23,120 --> 00:03:25,880 Speaker 4: account that some of these technologies like solar we are 57 00:03:26,000 --> 00:03:29,840 Speaker 4: very low today, or some of the components like magnets 58 00:03:29,880 --> 00:03:30,960 Speaker 4: for wind turbines. 59 00:03:31,200 --> 00:03:31,440 Speaker 3: Two. 60 00:03:32,960 --> 00:03:36,640 Speaker 4: Now, for other technologies where we already have a big 61 00:03:36,680 --> 00:03:39,120 Speaker 4: market share, like heat pumps or wind turbines, we want 62 00:03:39,160 --> 00:03:42,200 Speaker 4: to maintain that market share as the deployment grows. And 63 00:03:42,280 --> 00:03:45,760 Speaker 4: that means that in absolute terms, since this deployment will 64 00:03:45,760 --> 00:03:50,119 Speaker 4: have to grow, also the manufacturing by twenty thirty will 65 00:03:50,160 --> 00:03:53,360 Speaker 4: have to be scaled up significantly. Very concretely, that means 66 00:03:53,560 --> 00:03:56,280 Speaker 4: that for wind turbines we want to have an increase 67 00:03:56,320 --> 00:03:59,680 Speaker 4: of factor three by twenty thirty, for batteries factor seven, 68 00:04:00,040 --> 00:04:03,800 Speaker 4: for solar factor twenty And of course this is a 69 00:04:03,840 --> 00:04:07,160 Speaker 4: big challenge, but we are setting in place the right 70 00:04:07,240 --> 00:04:09,800 Speaker 4: rules to support that. The Nazer Industry Act is the 71 00:04:09,840 --> 00:04:12,040 Speaker 4: central piece of that. And I don't have the time here, 72 00:04:12,040 --> 00:04:14,760 Speaker 4: of course to present the datayls, just to mention two things. 73 00:04:15,280 --> 00:04:18,960 Speaker 4: One thing permitting we have to make sure that the 74 00:04:19,000 --> 00:04:23,000 Speaker 4: ease of doing business is really top notch. We heard 75 00:04:23,120 --> 00:04:25,640 Speaker 4: in Europe in the past that some of those giga 76 00:04:25,640 --> 00:04:28,400 Speaker 4: factories we're waiting for five years to get the right permits. 77 00:04:28,600 --> 00:04:31,520 Speaker 4: Now public authorities will have from nine to eighteen months 78 00:04:31,520 --> 00:04:35,279 Speaker 4: to deliver the permits. Second element, access to markets. By 79 00:04:35,320 --> 00:04:40,520 Speaker 4: access to markets, we mean auctions for green power, public procurement. 80 00:04:40,120 --> 00:04:41,320 Speaker 3: Subsidies to households. 81 00:04:41,600 --> 00:04:44,640 Speaker 4: For all of those schemes, public authorities will have to 82 00:04:44,640 --> 00:04:48,640 Speaker 4: make sure that through eligibility criteria or award criteria. They 83 00:04:48,760 --> 00:04:53,800 Speaker 4: favor a diversified supply chain, so not everything from China, 84 00:04:54,520 --> 00:04:57,800 Speaker 4: but diversified. These are not local content requirements. This can 85 00:04:57,839 --> 00:05:01,720 Speaker 4: be US or other entities, but also so very specifically 86 00:05:02,040 --> 00:05:05,080 Speaker 4: for procurement, authorities will have to ensure that not more 87 00:05:05,120 --> 00:05:08,840 Speaker 4: than fifty percent of the contract value, including for solar PV, 88 00:05:09,520 --> 00:05:12,400 Speaker 4: would come from a single source of supply on which 89 00:05:12,400 --> 00:05:16,040 Speaker 4: we depend in this case China. Last point I would 90 00:05:16,040 --> 00:05:18,600 Speaker 4: like to make in terms of the IRA comparison. A 91 00:05:18,640 --> 00:05:20,960 Speaker 4: lot has been said about the lack of funding, but 92 00:05:21,120 --> 00:05:23,799 Speaker 4: here this is not the Nager Industry Act, but other elements. 93 00:05:23,839 --> 00:05:26,280 Speaker 3: We have relaxed state aged rules specifically for. 94 00:05:26,240 --> 00:05:31,120 Speaker 4: That objective of manufacturing nazero technologies. As much as fourteen 95 00:05:31,160 --> 00:05:33,960 Speaker 4: billion euros have been approved so far by the Commission 96 00:05:34,000 --> 00:05:35,840 Speaker 4: for those schemes and we have to make sure that 97 00:05:35,880 --> 00:05:36,839 Speaker 4: they are now deployed. 98 00:05:37,120 --> 00:05:38,960 Speaker 3: Also for private capital. 99 00:05:39,279 --> 00:05:42,680 Speaker 4: I have looked at the numbers venture capital this year 100 00:05:42,839 --> 00:05:48,800 Speaker 4: three billion euros invested in or committed in those projects 101 00:05:48,800 --> 00:05:52,920 Speaker 4: compared to four in the US. This is narrowest gap 102 00:05:53,000 --> 00:05:56,160 Speaker 4: since the IRA was put in place. So things are 103 00:05:56,160 --> 00:05:58,560 Speaker 4: going in the right direction, although of course there are 104 00:05:58,560 --> 00:05:59,480 Speaker 4: major challenges that. 105 00:05:59,440 --> 00:06:04,080 Speaker 2: Had right and those sort of relaxing state aid et cetera. 106 00:06:04,440 --> 00:06:07,599 Speaker 2: The're sort of and some of the investment versus the 107 00:06:07,640 --> 00:06:10,800 Speaker 2: sort of tax credit approach that the IRA is put 108 00:06:10,839 --> 00:06:11,239 Speaker 2: in place. 109 00:06:11,720 --> 00:06:15,560 Speaker 4: Yes, well, indeed, I mean we also I think one 110 00:06:15,640 --> 00:06:17,520 Speaker 4: conclusion that we drove from the IRA is that we 111 00:06:17,600 --> 00:06:21,960 Speaker 4: have to really simplify the way we channel investment supporting 112 00:06:22,000 --> 00:06:24,640 Speaker 4: the EU, and so we have to move towards more 113 00:06:24,680 --> 00:06:27,960 Speaker 4: like contracts. For difference, if you look at what France 114 00:06:28,120 --> 00:06:31,520 Speaker 4: is doing for supporting manufacturing of batteries or solar pvs 115 00:06:31,600 --> 00:06:34,680 Speaker 4: also through tax credits. So we are, you know, joining 116 00:06:34,720 --> 00:06:38,080 Speaker 4: conclusions from the way the US is doing and trying 117 00:06:38,120 --> 00:06:39,880 Speaker 4: to accelerate things here as well. 118 00:06:40,120 --> 00:06:42,520 Speaker 5: Okay, thank you and Herbert. 119 00:06:42,520 --> 00:06:44,920 Speaker 2: You've been involved in many different parts of this, as 120 00:06:44,960 --> 00:06:47,839 Speaker 2: you mentioned, you've been involved in solar for a very 121 00:06:47,880 --> 00:06:52,880 Speaker 2: long time and now you know also industry batteries, et cetera. 122 00:06:54,360 --> 00:06:57,279 Speaker 2: What's your view in terms of Europe and sort of 123 00:06:57,279 --> 00:07:00,480 Speaker 2: where it can be really competitive and so what should 124 00:07:00,520 --> 00:07:03,160 Speaker 2: be done to make that realized? 125 00:07:04,440 --> 00:07:07,000 Speaker 6: I think, first of all, and it is probably something 126 00:07:07,080 --> 00:07:09,560 Speaker 6: very prerogative. I think we should be very very happy 127 00:07:09,600 --> 00:07:13,000 Speaker 6: that China did that. They started very early. They probably 128 00:07:13,000 --> 00:07:16,280 Speaker 6: invested more in renewables than the rest of the world together. 129 00:07:17,240 --> 00:07:21,880 Speaker 6: They took over from Germany solar twenty twelve, and Germany 130 00:07:22,000 --> 00:07:24,680 Speaker 6: was giving it up, and I think there was would 131 00:07:24,800 --> 00:07:28,560 Speaker 6: be no other nation being able to scale it up 132 00:07:28,640 --> 00:07:32,200 Speaker 6: so fast and to make it so cheap. And that's 133 00:07:32,240 --> 00:07:37,240 Speaker 6: that's the same for solar. For batteries, EBIs let's wait 134 00:07:37,320 --> 00:07:40,520 Speaker 6: and see. But wind for sure on sure wind off, 135 00:07:40,520 --> 00:07:44,320 Speaker 6: sure wind may be And I think that's very good 136 00:07:44,320 --> 00:07:48,000 Speaker 6: news for the energy transition because only China made it 137 00:07:48,080 --> 00:07:53,440 Speaker 6: possible that now we have a basically a ban on 138 00:07:53,640 --> 00:07:58,280 Speaker 6: coal fired plants in India, not because the Indians want 139 00:07:58,360 --> 00:08:00,600 Speaker 6: to save the world, but solar is so much cheaper, 140 00:08:01,120 --> 00:08:03,160 Speaker 6: and I think in hindsight, and there's. 141 00:08:03,000 --> 00:08:04,920 Speaker 7: Probably also a bit provocative here. 142 00:08:05,480 --> 00:08:10,440 Speaker 6: In handsight, we might say that China basically stopped climate 143 00:08:10,520 --> 00:08:15,160 Speaker 6: change in handsight in ten or fifteen years. So now 144 00:08:15,280 --> 00:08:17,720 Speaker 6: on the other side, yes, there's a lot of value 145 00:08:17,760 --> 00:08:22,640 Speaker 6: add in China technology, in China scale and those industries 146 00:08:22,680 --> 00:08:25,440 Speaker 6: are growing fast, and we are losing out on our 147 00:08:25,520 --> 00:08:29,120 Speaker 6: participation in that value now because solar is said to 148 00:08:29,160 --> 00:08:32,839 Speaker 6: become more important than our automotive industry by twenty thirty 149 00:08:32,920 --> 00:08:35,720 Speaker 6: or thirty five. So this is a really big chunk 150 00:08:35,800 --> 00:08:39,120 Speaker 6: of industrial meat which is to be newly reparted. 151 00:08:39,160 --> 00:08:40,920 Speaker 7: So it's a concern I understand. 152 00:08:40,960 --> 00:08:43,800 Speaker 6: That's why I'm still filing to bring solar back to Europe, 153 00:08:44,000 --> 00:08:46,560 Speaker 6: which I think would make a lot of sense. But 154 00:08:46,679 --> 00:08:49,319 Speaker 6: first of all, I think a great job by China, 155 00:08:49,480 --> 00:08:55,079 Speaker 6: and don't let's say compromise it now with input duties, 156 00:08:55,080 --> 00:08:58,480 Speaker 6: because that will make solar more expensive. Heb is more expensive, 157 00:08:58,520 --> 00:09:01,440 Speaker 6: better is more expensive, and that will then slow down 158 00:09:01,520 --> 00:09:03,240 Speaker 6: the energy energy transition. 159 00:09:03,360 --> 00:09:06,439 Speaker 7: So that's that's the wrong way the. 160 00:09:07,559 --> 00:09:08,920 Speaker 5: So what'should Europe do you? 161 00:09:09,880 --> 00:09:11,680 Speaker 7: I'm I think you know we should. 162 00:09:11,720 --> 00:09:13,880 Speaker 6: We should And if you look in those industry and 163 00:09:14,200 --> 00:09:17,640 Speaker 6: SOLA have deep insights because I know most of the 164 00:09:17,720 --> 00:09:21,720 Speaker 6: of the suppliers. Yes, China did a great job, but 165 00:09:22,160 --> 00:09:23,600 Speaker 6: they're living poorly from it. 166 00:09:24,360 --> 00:09:25,800 Speaker 7: Half of the solar. 167 00:09:26,440 --> 00:09:31,520 Speaker 6: Energy manufacturers aren't aren't earning any money. The others are 168 00:09:32,120 --> 00:09:35,920 Speaker 6: borderline when it comes to cash flows, and the same 169 00:09:36,040 --> 00:09:38,840 Speaker 6: applies to batteries. There are two very profitable ones, which 170 00:09:38,880 --> 00:09:42,079 Speaker 6: is COETL, but the rest of the battery manufacturers are 171 00:09:42,520 --> 00:09:43,720 Speaker 6: making huge losses. 172 00:09:44,240 --> 00:09:44,520 Speaker 8: Uh. 173 00:09:44,559 --> 00:09:46,840 Speaker 6: And if you look then in the value chain, then 174 00:09:47,040 --> 00:09:49,920 Speaker 6: in the value chain of solar, the solar cell and 175 00:09:49,960 --> 00:09:58,199 Speaker 6: the module are not profitable. But then downstream selling, reselling, installing, 176 00:09:58,880 --> 00:10:02,640 Speaker 6: running the solar manners is usually profitable. And this business 177 00:10:02,640 --> 00:10:07,280 Speaker 6: normally is in Western hands in Europe. So I think 178 00:10:07,320 --> 00:10:10,640 Speaker 6: it's a situation where which we can we can live on. 179 00:10:10,720 --> 00:10:14,240 Speaker 6: Surely what we should do is encouraged to Chinese to 180 00:10:14,280 --> 00:10:16,079 Speaker 6: come here and build up plants here in. 181 00:10:16,040 --> 00:10:19,000 Speaker 2: Europe, okay, and then you'd have Europe focus on the 182 00:10:19,000 --> 00:10:22,160 Speaker 2: downstream applications and integration and those kinds. 183 00:10:22,160 --> 00:10:24,480 Speaker 6: And the other thing is but I just have been 184 00:10:24,840 --> 00:10:30,000 Speaker 6: telling China is very strong in if it's not too 185 00:10:30,040 --> 00:10:33,319 Speaker 6: complex to max all ourselves, which is a technology now 186 00:10:33,360 --> 00:10:36,040 Speaker 6: fifty years or basically to refine. 187 00:10:35,600 --> 00:10:37,760 Speaker 7: That and make it even better day by day. 188 00:10:39,000 --> 00:10:42,080 Speaker 6: It's very difficult to compete against China with sixty percent 189 00:10:42,120 --> 00:10:48,520 Speaker 6: of the world market now, with really extreme competition from entrepreneurs. 190 00:10:48,679 --> 00:10:53,240 Speaker 6: When it becomes more complex, for instance, no software which 191 00:10:53,280 --> 00:10:58,800 Speaker 6: makes use which combines the cars with the renewable energy 192 00:10:58,800 --> 00:11:00,760 Speaker 6: flexible energy market they don't have. 193 00:11:00,880 --> 00:11:04,439 Speaker 7: So the more sophisticated, the more complex the. 194 00:11:04,440 --> 00:11:07,880 Speaker 6: Solutions become, the more Europe and the US have a 195 00:11:08,000 --> 00:11:10,720 Speaker 6: chance to compete and probably have an advantage to compete. 196 00:11:10,760 --> 00:11:12,679 Speaker 6: So we should do what we can do best, and 197 00:11:12,760 --> 00:11:16,240 Speaker 6: we should have China making what they can do cheapest 198 00:11:16,280 --> 00:11:17,160 Speaker 6: than inco quality. 199 00:11:17,440 --> 00:11:19,440 Speaker 2: Okay, so I'm going to ask two people who are 200 00:11:19,440 --> 00:11:25,120 Speaker 2: definitely involved in the manufacturing side and not just downstream. So, yeah, 201 00:11:25,240 --> 00:11:27,400 Speaker 2: what's your thoughts in terms of what should Europe be 202 00:11:27,480 --> 00:11:30,720 Speaker 2: doing to be to have a sort of strong, healthy, 203 00:11:31,320 --> 00:11:35,200 Speaker 2: clean green industry in the future. 204 00:11:35,920 --> 00:11:39,040 Speaker 8: Well, the first point is I would agree with your 205 00:11:39,080 --> 00:11:42,160 Speaker 8: point of view. I don't know if we have to 206 00:11:42,240 --> 00:11:45,800 Speaker 8: be happy with the Chinese supremacy, but it's a fact. 207 00:11:46,080 --> 00:11:51,160 Speaker 8: It's a fact that on that way side, China is leading. 208 00:11:51,760 --> 00:11:56,280 Speaker 8: China is leading the pack. I didn't say that, and 209 00:11:56,520 --> 00:12:01,040 Speaker 8: that's the reason why a SEC what's created three four 210 00:12:01,120 --> 00:12:06,000 Speaker 8: years ago. We have to acknowledge that for the immobility 211 00:12:06,320 --> 00:12:10,720 Speaker 8: E affordable mobility, we can't rely on the supply which 212 00:12:11,200 --> 00:12:14,280 Speaker 8: would be one hundred percent an Asian one, not to 213 00:12:14,320 --> 00:12:17,480 Speaker 8: say you're Chinese one. So there's a need for there's 214 00:12:17,480 --> 00:12:21,880 Speaker 8: a need for Europe to to build a strong battery 215 00:12:22,440 --> 00:12:28,360 Speaker 8: uh industry, and that's what Norswall starts a few years ago. 216 00:12:28,480 --> 00:12:30,920 Speaker 8: That's what we are doing nowadays with the with the 217 00:12:31,000 --> 00:12:33,839 Speaker 8: ramp up or for first the first Giga factory. 218 00:12:34,679 --> 00:12:37,680 Speaker 2: And that's for resilience. You're saying, sorry, that's for resilience. 219 00:12:37,720 --> 00:12:40,840 Speaker 2: So you're not reliant on just sort of point sources. 220 00:12:40,920 --> 00:12:41,880 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 221 00:12:41,920 --> 00:12:46,439 Speaker 8: So it's not to say that we are immediately competitive. 222 00:12:46,720 --> 00:12:49,079 Speaker 8: There is there is a There is clearly an issue. 223 00:12:50,559 --> 00:12:53,680 Speaker 8: All strong believe is that we shouldn't rely on tariffs. 224 00:12:53,760 --> 00:12:58,440 Speaker 8: We shouldn't rely on tariffs because tariffs will will create 225 00:12:58,520 --> 00:13:02,320 Speaker 8: an illusion in in the European market, an illusion to 226 00:13:02,360 --> 00:13:07,760 Speaker 8: be protected. The customers will see higher prices. So we 227 00:13:07,880 --> 00:13:10,280 Speaker 8: believe that we have to work hard. We have to 228 00:13:10,320 --> 00:13:12,720 Speaker 8: work hard in order to catch up. And when we 229 00:13:12,760 --> 00:13:18,760 Speaker 8: look at the the EV market for today, we've seen 230 00:13:19,080 --> 00:13:22,720 Speaker 8: and it has been previously mentioned, we've seen a slow 231 00:13:22,800 --> 00:13:26,599 Speaker 8: down of the growth. It's not stopping, it's not declining, 232 00:13:26,720 --> 00:13:30,040 Speaker 8: but it's slowing down. And it's slowing down because the 233 00:13:30,480 --> 00:13:33,640 Speaker 8: affordability of the e cars is not sufficient. 234 00:13:33,920 --> 00:13:35,920 Speaker 3: So we need to we need to increase. 235 00:13:36,679 --> 00:13:39,120 Speaker 8: We need to decrease the cost of the of the 236 00:13:39,200 --> 00:13:41,880 Speaker 8: of the of the batteries. We need to decrease the 237 00:13:41,920 --> 00:13:45,920 Speaker 8: cost of the E cars. And for that one, I 238 00:13:46,200 --> 00:13:54,839 Speaker 8: strongly believe on partnerships within Europe, partnerships between labs, universities, 239 00:13:55,559 --> 00:13:58,320 Speaker 8: in thus world companies. That's what we that's what we 240 00:13:58,360 --> 00:14:01,240 Speaker 8: are doing in order to be able to catch up. 241 00:14:01,559 --> 00:14:05,360 Speaker 8: And the last point, when we when we consider the 242 00:14:06,240 --> 00:14:11,200 Speaker 8: let's say low cost solution for batteries, UH, we're not 243 00:14:11,360 --> 00:14:15,240 Speaker 8: that far from a technological point of view at the time, 244 00:14:15,320 --> 00:14:19,400 Speaker 8: being from A from A from Chinese companies, So it's 245 00:14:19,520 --> 00:14:23,920 Speaker 8: we're not We're not ten years, tenures behind, one or 246 00:14:23,920 --> 00:14:26,760 Speaker 8: two years behind, so it's possible to catch up. 247 00:14:27,600 --> 00:14:30,480 Speaker 2: And the EV slow down is that causing you to 248 00:14:30,480 --> 00:14:34,040 Speaker 2: to to sort of change the speed with which you're moving. Sorry, 249 00:14:34,280 --> 00:14:37,120 Speaker 2: the sort of slow down in ev uptake is that 250 00:14:37,360 --> 00:14:40,200 Speaker 2: is that having an impact on well. 251 00:14:40,120 --> 00:14:40,600 Speaker 3: I mean. 252 00:14:41,920 --> 00:14:44,920 Speaker 8: Investing in a in a giga factory is a huge cost. 253 00:14:45,120 --> 00:14:47,960 Speaker 8: I mean it's a fifteen gig out hour does cost 254 00:14:48,040 --> 00:14:51,560 Speaker 8: you one billion euros. So ans we need to be 255 00:14:51,760 --> 00:14:55,960 Speaker 8: we need to be cautious under timing of of investment. 256 00:14:56,720 --> 00:14:57,080 Speaker 3: Uh. 257 00:14:57,160 --> 00:14:59,920 Speaker 8: And second point, which are the reasons for the slowdown 258 00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:02,720 Speaker 8: of the market, They are very simple. The EV car 259 00:15:02,840 --> 00:15:05,640 Speaker 8: is too expensive, very simple. I mean, if you look 260 00:15:05,640 --> 00:15:10,560 Speaker 8: at the the thousand market in Europe, Spain, Italy, Greece, 261 00:15:10,880 --> 00:15:14,840 Speaker 8: even France, I mean the market share of TV it 262 00:15:14,920 --> 00:15:17,560 Speaker 8: is not that high. It's not that high. Italy two percent, 263 00:15:17,800 --> 00:15:22,800 Speaker 8: Spain four percent, France hopefully a bit higher. But that's 264 00:15:22,800 --> 00:15:28,720 Speaker 8: because fares on the infrastructure. But more important the fact 265 00:15:28,760 --> 00:15:31,440 Speaker 8: that the cost of the EV is too too, too expensive. 266 00:15:31,760 --> 00:15:38,080 Speaker 8: So we consider that to to to to improve the 267 00:15:38,120 --> 00:15:42,200 Speaker 8: situation of the market, to to go back to a 268 00:15:42,320 --> 00:15:46,920 Speaker 8: steep increase of this market, we need to bring affordable 269 00:15:46,960 --> 00:15:49,520 Speaker 8: solutions and that's why we're take in some time. 270 00:15:50,720 --> 00:15:55,480 Speaker 2: Okay, thank you and then hack on from a from 271 00:15:55,680 --> 00:15:59,160 Speaker 2: your your electroizer. So hydrogen is a much more early 272 00:15:59,200 --> 00:16:03,840 Speaker 2: stage industry, so we call it phase two technology. What 273 00:16:03,880 --> 00:16:06,680 Speaker 2: are your thoughts on you know, you're at the beginning 274 00:16:06,680 --> 00:16:07,680 Speaker 2: of the game. 275 00:16:07,480 --> 00:16:09,520 Speaker 5: If you like, in many ways. What are your thoughts 276 00:16:09,600 --> 00:16:11,800 Speaker 5: on what Europe should be focused on? 277 00:16:13,840 --> 00:16:19,200 Speaker 9: Well, according to a lot of experts, I'm picking a 278 00:16:19,240 --> 00:16:24,760 Speaker 9: suicide mission here and it's hard to fight against China. 279 00:16:25,000 --> 00:16:29,080 Speaker 9: But as a European and probably also as an engineer, 280 00:16:29,240 --> 00:16:33,400 Speaker 9: I have higher aspirations for Europe than you know, making 281 00:16:33,480 --> 00:16:36,840 Speaker 9: food and cutting here you know, obviously I'm not a 282 00:16:36,880 --> 00:16:39,880 Speaker 9: good customer, but I think in Europe we need to 283 00:16:40,400 --> 00:16:44,840 Speaker 9: have the goal of doing more than just services. And 284 00:16:44,920 --> 00:16:48,280 Speaker 9: I agree on the high value work, but that will 285 00:16:48,320 --> 00:16:52,360 Speaker 9: not create enough jobs. I think we need to also, 286 00:16:52,400 --> 00:16:56,920 Speaker 9: for resilience reasons, have certain core industries in Europe. And 287 00:16:57,040 --> 00:17:00,160 Speaker 9: if there's one thing, you know, the past cop all 288 00:17:00,240 --> 00:17:03,080 Speaker 9: of years have told us is that, you know, creating 289 00:17:03,120 --> 00:17:07,800 Speaker 9: these dependencies on regimes that you cannot fully trust due 290 00:17:07,800 --> 00:17:13,120 Speaker 9: to difficult geopolitical situations, we need to have some local 291 00:17:13,320 --> 00:17:17,320 Speaker 9: production and content in Europe. So I'm not against important 292 00:17:17,400 --> 00:17:22,639 Speaker 9: things from China, but I do think we need to try, 293 00:17:22,680 --> 00:17:26,639 Speaker 9: at least in Europe to be involved in key industries 294 00:17:26,720 --> 00:17:30,560 Speaker 9: going forward. We're not as disciplined, we're not as you know, 295 00:17:30,840 --> 00:17:35,040 Speaker 9: strategic about it as the Chinese. They picked certain industries 296 00:17:35,080 --> 00:17:38,000 Speaker 9: that they said, we've got to dominate these industries. Europe 297 00:17:38,000 --> 00:17:40,919 Speaker 9: hasn't done the same, but we we still have a 298 00:17:41,040 --> 00:17:43,760 Speaker 9: chance on the more difficult things. And I believe that 299 00:17:43,880 --> 00:17:49,840 Speaker 9: hydrogen is much more difficult than solar. It's not only kapex, 300 00:17:50,040 --> 00:17:54,080 Speaker 9: it's also efficiency. So the energy efficiency is much more 301 00:17:54,080 --> 00:17:56,879 Speaker 9: important than just you know, the cost of steel and 302 00:17:56,920 --> 00:18:01,040 Speaker 9: that's why we try to do it in Europe. And 303 00:18:01,080 --> 00:18:03,520 Speaker 9: I think, you know, what we're asking for is sort 304 00:18:03,520 --> 00:18:07,600 Speaker 9: of a level playing field where the Chinese are held 305 00:18:07,640 --> 00:18:10,920 Speaker 9: to the same standards as I am as a European. 306 00:18:11,320 --> 00:18:14,280 Speaker 9: So I think it's a bit fascinating that they are 307 00:18:14,359 --> 00:18:16,800 Speaker 9: allowed to do things and sell it to Europe and 308 00:18:16,880 --> 00:18:18,520 Speaker 9: if I did the same things, I will go to 309 00:18:18,560 --> 00:18:21,479 Speaker 9: prison or see the big fine. And that's what I 310 00:18:21,720 --> 00:18:25,399 Speaker 9: don't like about it, other than that's pro global trade 311 00:18:25,440 --> 00:18:26,679 Speaker 9: and pro competition. 312 00:18:28,640 --> 00:18:33,000 Speaker 2: Great so, and that level playing field is that? Yes, 313 00:18:33,480 --> 00:18:36,240 Speaker 2: how you say it's sort of the goal of the 314 00:18:36,320 --> 00:18:37,640 Speaker 2: European Commission. 315 00:18:37,400 --> 00:18:40,560 Speaker 4: Yeah, absolutely, I think you know, speaking about the title 316 00:18:40,600 --> 00:18:43,840 Speaker 4: of the session, should we be more protectionist? I think 317 00:18:43,840 --> 00:18:47,080 Speaker 4: we all agree we shouldn't be protectionists, and I think 318 00:18:47,080 --> 00:18:49,879 Speaker 4: this is not what the Commission aims at. It's all 319 00:18:49,920 --> 00:18:53,879 Speaker 4: about indeed, resilience, it's all about level playing field. I 320 00:18:53,960 --> 00:18:56,640 Speaker 4: heard the criticism of tariffs, but you know, tariffs they 321 00:18:57,000 --> 00:19:00,000 Speaker 4: can play a role in those cases where there are 322 00:19:00,080 --> 00:19:03,800 Speaker 4: unfair practices by third countries. We apply them to steal 323 00:19:03,880 --> 00:19:06,280 Speaker 4: and it works rather well. We tried with solar there 324 00:19:06,280 --> 00:19:10,080 Speaker 4: it didn't work. So tariffs have their advantages and droplets. 325 00:19:10,160 --> 00:19:13,720 Speaker 4: We are complementing them with other tools to ensure that 326 00:19:13,800 --> 00:19:17,040 Speaker 4: level playing field. We have, for example, the Foreign Subsidiest Regulation. 327 00:19:17,520 --> 00:19:20,560 Speaker 4: We have the International Procurement instruments. So if EU companies 328 00:19:20,600 --> 00:19:23,720 Speaker 4: do not have access to procurement in third countries, companies 329 00:19:23,720 --> 00:19:26,439 Speaker 4: from those countries should not have access to procurement here. 330 00:19:26,640 --> 00:19:28,520 Speaker 4: This is as simple as that, and so we will 331 00:19:28,560 --> 00:19:32,240 Speaker 4: be applying that. And finally we have other instruments that 332 00:19:33,000 --> 00:19:35,280 Speaker 4: try to ensure that we have a level playing field. 333 00:19:35,280 --> 00:19:40,320 Speaker 4: Also across other dimensions such as climate protection or forced labor. 334 00:19:40,560 --> 00:19:43,800 Speaker 4: We have the SEABUM, we have the Forced Labor regulation, 335 00:19:44,160 --> 00:19:46,600 Speaker 4: and all of these tools will be increasingly applied in 336 00:19:46,640 --> 00:19:47,399 Speaker 4: the coming years. 337 00:19:48,320 --> 00:19:50,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, just to CLI, I think you alluded to this 338 00:19:50,720 --> 00:19:55,239 Speaker 2: in terms of ownership of facilities, so sort of you know, 339 00:19:55,640 --> 00:20:00,400 Speaker 2: Chinese ownership, Chinese companies setting up within Europe, so still skills, etc. 340 00:20:01,240 --> 00:20:03,320 Speaker 5: What's your views on that. 341 00:20:04,280 --> 00:20:08,560 Speaker 4: I mean, I think it's a classical yes, but you know, 342 00:20:09,400 --> 00:20:13,080 Speaker 4: because I think for investments into existing companies, we heard 343 00:20:13,119 --> 00:20:16,320 Speaker 4: that in Europe we are very good at innovative solutions 344 00:20:16,520 --> 00:20:18,880 Speaker 4: and we have to be careful with Chinese companies coming here. 345 00:20:19,000 --> 00:20:23,720 Speaker 4: Just to simply take over ips and shift production to China. 346 00:20:23,760 --> 00:20:26,600 Speaker 4: And we actually have seen we have the so called 347 00:20:26,840 --> 00:20:32,800 Speaker 4: foreign Investment Screening instrument, we had cases where such investments 348 00:20:32,800 --> 00:20:35,119 Speaker 4: have been blocked. Of course, with this tool, we have 349 00:20:35,160 --> 00:20:37,480 Speaker 4: to be very selective and careful because it's not always 350 00:20:37,520 --> 00:20:41,040 Speaker 4: good for the companies. In terms of greenfield investments, indeed, 351 00:20:41,119 --> 00:20:44,680 Speaker 4: again as we heard today, already China is the innovator currently, 352 00:20:44,720 --> 00:20:47,160 Speaker 4: so we have to allow for those investments in the EU. 353 00:20:47,400 --> 00:20:51,280 Speaker 4: But again we have to apply certain conditions. All of 354 00:20:51,320 --> 00:20:54,680 Speaker 4: those battery manufacturing sites, for example in Hungary that are 355 00:20:54,720 --> 00:21:02,679 Speaker 4: simple simply assembling cells from existing supplies located in China. 356 00:21:03,160 --> 00:21:07,000 Speaker 4: This does not improve our resilience. Also, in terms of 357 00:21:07,040 --> 00:21:10,879 Speaker 4: sharing intellectual property, I think we have to draw conclusions 358 00:21:10,880 --> 00:21:14,440 Speaker 4: from what China was doing to our companies, so encourage 359 00:21:14,560 --> 00:21:18,840 Speaker 4: Chinese companies to have joint ventures with local partners, share knowledge, 360 00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:20,960 Speaker 4: share R and D and so on. 361 00:21:21,280 --> 00:21:24,160 Speaker 2: So it's it's sort of leveling the pailfin I don't 362 00:21:24,200 --> 00:21:27,120 Speaker 2: ownership level as well, thinking about that, okay, thank you 363 00:21:27,640 --> 00:21:31,400 Speaker 2: and Herbert. In terms of there's been some discussion about 364 00:21:31,400 --> 00:21:33,560 Speaker 2: what should we be done a country level versus at 365 00:21:33,600 --> 00:21:36,879 Speaker 2: the European commission level. How do you how do you 366 00:21:36,920 --> 00:21:39,240 Speaker 2: think about that? 367 00:21:39,240 --> 00:21:43,440 Speaker 7: That's probably I'm not sure. I'm probably not the right 368 00:21:43,560 --> 00:21:46,760 Speaker 7: one to answer the question. Europe is not the state. 369 00:21:46,600 --> 00:21:50,440 Speaker 6: Now and and we have those aspirations that we would 370 00:21:50,480 --> 00:21:54,280 Speaker 6: speak with one voice. But then we have all Chinese 371 00:21:54,359 --> 00:21:57,680 Speaker 6: investing in Hungary because they are received more friendly there. 372 00:21:58,240 --> 00:21:59,720 Speaker 7: So he said good, I said bad. 373 00:22:00,840 --> 00:22:02,920 Speaker 6: I'm not sure because you know, at the end, I'm 374 00:22:02,960 --> 00:22:06,280 Speaker 6: convinced that we need this Chinese investment with source conditions. Yeah, 375 00:22:06,600 --> 00:22:10,280 Speaker 6: joint venturing, sharing technology, bring the technology over. Then we 376 00:22:10,320 --> 00:22:15,480 Speaker 6: have a chance to restart like China basically try it 377 00:22:15,520 --> 00:22:17,720 Speaker 6: now for thirty five years to get hold on the 378 00:22:17,760 --> 00:22:24,639 Speaker 6: automotive industry. Yeah, inviting external Western investors like Volkswagen to 379 00:22:24,800 --> 00:22:29,639 Speaker 6: joint venture voyks Wargen still is a minority investments in China, 380 00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:32,119 Speaker 6: bringing the technology and then growing together. 381 00:22:32,160 --> 00:22:35,080 Speaker 7: And we should do the same. And this is why I. 382 00:22:35,000 --> 00:22:39,359 Speaker 6: Think it's positive what Hungary does, inviting China, subsidizing China, 383 00:22:39,400 --> 00:22:40,560 Speaker 6: bringing the technology. 384 00:22:40,880 --> 00:22:43,040 Speaker 7: And I agree at the first stage this is assembly. 385 00:22:43,080 --> 00:22:45,720 Speaker 6: But it was at the first stage also assembly when 386 00:22:45,760 --> 00:22:48,680 Speaker 6: we brought the cars to China. Yeah, we started this assembly, 387 00:22:48,800 --> 00:22:54,480 Speaker 6: then we integrated. But I think to dream of building 388 00:22:54,560 --> 00:22:59,520 Speaker 6: up a solar industry from Europe out of the most 389 00:22:59,520 --> 00:23:02,760 Speaker 6: important market, which is China. Sixty percent of this is 390 00:23:02,800 --> 00:23:06,840 Speaker 6: a cluster in itself. And I'm not sure whether this 391 00:23:07,520 --> 00:23:10,719 Speaker 6: defense line of this is forced labor and this is 392 00:23:10,720 --> 00:23:12,600 Speaker 6: not green energy we'll hold for long. 393 00:23:12,640 --> 00:23:14,160 Speaker 7: I've seen most of the plants. 394 00:23:14,160 --> 00:23:18,000 Speaker 6: The plants are excellent, they're highly automized. Most of the 395 00:23:18,040 --> 00:23:21,080 Speaker 6: plants are running on green energy already now on solar 396 00:23:21,280 --> 00:23:24,639 Speaker 6: and wind. And so this is something you just you 397 00:23:24,680 --> 00:23:28,320 Speaker 6: have to be able to compete against the cluster where 398 00:23:28,359 --> 00:23:33,680 Speaker 6: the smallest producer in viable conditions would produce twenty gigawards 399 00:23:33,680 --> 00:23:38,399 Speaker 6: per year, and the European player would produce one, and 400 00:23:38,480 --> 00:23:41,920 Speaker 6: the startups we are financing would produce one and then 401 00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:44,679 Speaker 6: another one in a few years. That's not working, so 402 00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:47,640 Speaker 6: it never be big competitive. You only can do it. 403 00:23:47,640 --> 00:23:50,560 Speaker 6: Invite the Chinese to come here joint venturing, build up 404 00:23:50,600 --> 00:23:54,119 Speaker 6: something serious twenty ten twenty gig others. We have the conditions, 405 00:23:54,119 --> 00:23:58,639 Speaker 6: we can absolutely match the cospontition. You don't have energy 406 00:23:58,720 --> 00:24:01,679 Speaker 6: much cheaper in China around four cent you need for 407 00:24:01,760 --> 00:24:02,520 Speaker 6: solar production. 408 00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:04,680 Speaker 7: We have it in Spain, we have it in Norway. 409 00:24:05,760 --> 00:24:10,000 Speaker 6: Labor cost in Hungary is not so different from from China, 410 00:24:10,800 --> 00:24:14,360 Speaker 6: so and the and the conditions regarding environment are very similar, 411 00:24:14,520 --> 00:24:18,119 Speaker 6: so it can be done. Don't try to compete against 412 00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:21,520 Speaker 6: a world power with a few. 413 00:24:21,400 --> 00:24:24,760 Speaker 2: Startups, right right, and that you're you're sort of happy 414 00:24:24,840 --> 00:24:27,520 Speaker 2: for that to be a sort of country by country decision. 415 00:24:27,640 --> 00:24:27,840 Speaker 7: You know. 416 00:24:28,040 --> 00:24:30,439 Speaker 6: I think to accept it, I have to. We have 417 00:24:30,520 --> 00:24:33,400 Speaker 6: to accept it that Europe is not one block. And 418 00:24:33,440 --> 00:24:35,440 Speaker 6: it's probably good that it's not one block. 419 00:24:35,840 --> 00:24:39,720 Speaker 2: Okay, great, we have about ten minutes left. Gonna move 420 00:24:39,800 --> 00:24:43,639 Speaker 2: a little bit onto sort of trade and supply chains 421 00:24:44,040 --> 00:24:46,679 Speaker 2: and Hacker. I'm going to ask you in terms of 422 00:24:48,160 --> 00:24:52,399 Speaker 2: again sort of hydrogen is sort of newer industry. People 423 00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:58,119 Speaker 2: talking about importing, exporting, how do you think Europe should 424 00:24:58,119 --> 00:25:01,000 Speaker 2: think about the supply chains for finish new industry. 425 00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:09,760 Speaker 9: Well, China controls ninety percent of rare earth minerals, so 426 00:25:10,080 --> 00:25:17,400 Speaker 9: im I do agree that China has certain competitive advantages 427 00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:19,840 Speaker 9: where it doesn't make sense to compete against them. But 428 00:25:20,160 --> 00:25:22,720 Speaker 9: I think we leave too much in the hands of China. 429 00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:25,919 Speaker 9: I think we left too much in the hands of Russia, 430 00:25:26,080 --> 00:25:29,119 Speaker 9: you know, especially Germany on the on the energy politics 431 00:25:29,119 --> 00:25:31,280 Speaker 9: are we're going to do the same with China on 432 00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:35,000 Speaker 9: everything else. I think that's dangerous. We need we need, 433 00:25:36,240 --> 00:25:40,760 Speaker 9: we need a plan for how to get access to 434 00:25:40,880 --> 00:25:44,520 Speaker 9: critical raw materials also in Europe, and we need to 435 00:25:45,320 --> 00:25:49,400 Speaker 9: probably prioritize the technologies where we don't rely so much 436 00:25:49,480 --> 00:25:53,640 Speaker 9: on these rare earth minerals. You know, ninety percent control 437 00:25:53,680 --> 00:25:58,720 Speaker 9: by by China, and that's that is possible. But you know, 438 00:25:58,840 --> 00:26:05,600 Speaker 9: supply chains for all energy transition technologies are franchile and difficult, 439 00:26:06,280 --> 00:26:10,800 Speaker 9: whether it's batteries or electoralizers or other things. You know, 440 00:26:11,119 --> 00:26:14,000 Speaker 9: there are certain special ingredients that you need, and I 441 00:26:14,040 --> 00:26:17,320 Speaker 9: think that's where probably we can try to coordinate things 442 00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:19,959 Speaker 9: on the European level, and I know there are initiatives 443 00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:22,360 Speaker 9: to do that, but Europe needs a plan for how 444 00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:26,879 Speaker 9: to access some of these metals and minerals over time. Otherwise, 445 00:26:27,359 --> 00:26:29,520 Speaker 9: you know, we're not going to be able to produce 446 00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:33,320 Speaker 9: anything out of Europe. Then it will all be imports. 447 00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:37,240 Speaker 2: Okay, So you would definitely include that in scope in 448 00:26:37,320 --> 00:26:38,640 Speaker 2: terms of industrial strategy. 449 00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:40,080 Speaker 5: Yeah, and would you would you agree? 450 00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:46,240 Speaker 8: All we are acknowledging the fact that for time being, 451 00:26:47,560 --> 00:26:53,119 Speaker 8: most of the equipment are supplied by China Korea one 452 00:26:53,160 --> 00:27:00,159 Speaker 8: hundred percent. Actually, most of the refining capabilities for a 453 00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:06,520 Speaker 8: fight for lysium are based in China, and indeed I 454 00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:11,439 Speaker 8: consider it as a as a threat. So from that perspective, 455 00:27:12,520 --> 00:27:17,480 Speaker 8: we're trying to get as much as possible partnership between 456 00:27:18,080 --> 00:27:23,120 Speaker 8: Chinese companies European ones in order to set up facilities 457 00:27:23,119 --> 00:27:27,760 Speaker 8: in Europe. A good example of that is a supplier 458 00:27:27,880 --> 00:27:33,400 Speaker 8: of castile active material, which going to be a joint 459 00:27:33,480 --> 00:27:36,880 Speaker 8: venture between a Chinese company and Oranol, a French company. 460 00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:41,040 Speaker 8: So setting up facilities in North or France. I think 461 00:27:41,080 --> 00:27:43,800 Speaker 8: that's that the way to that the way to move forward. 462 00:27:44,280 --> 00:27:48,920 Speaker 8: We have other other projects, other similar projects in Europe 463 00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:53,680 Speaker 8: or close to Europe. It's the way to progressively move 464 00:27:53,760 --> 00:27:55,960 Speaker 8: out of the of the Chinese hands. But it will 465 00:27:56,000 --> 00:27:58,240 Speaker 8: take time. It will take time. It's not for tomorrow, 466 00:27:58,320 --> 00:28:00,639 Speaker 8: it's not it's not happening all the night. 467 00:28:01,119 --> 00:28:04,560 Speaker 2: Right, But that's sort of in scope supply chains, totally 468 00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:05,400 Speaker 2: in scope. 469 00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:06,080 Speaker 5: In terms of strategy. 470 00:28:06,240 --> 00:28:11,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, and just one question actually on recycling and circularity, 471 00:28:11,920 --> 00:28:16,280 Speaker 2: because I know that's part of your role. How do 472 00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:20,520 Speaker 2: you factor that into the sort of supply chain thinking, Yeah. 473 00:28:20,359 --> 00:28:22,760 Speaker 4: It's a key element. I think we will be working 474 00:28:22,760 --> 00:28:25,600 Speaker 4: more and more on that. We have recently also greed 475 00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:28,160 Speaker 4: the sorry I'm mentioning regulations a lot of the time. 476 00:28:28,320 --> 00:28:29,879 Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, my world. 477 00:28:30,800 --> 00:28:33,520 Speaker 4: We have the battery regulation which sets certain requirements in 478 00:28:33,600 --> 00:28:36,840 Speaker 4: terms of recycled content for batteries. We will be doing 479 00:28:36,840 --> 00:28:39,360 Speaker 4: the same for other products in the future. For example, steel, 480 00:28:39,800 --> 00:28:42,520 Speaker 4: we want to set eco design requirements, so called eco 481 00:28:42,560 --> 00:28:45,400 Speaker 4: design requirements for steel in terms of recycled content, in 482 00:28:45,520 --> 00:28:49,280 Speaker 4: terms of carbon content, in terms of you know. 483 00:28:49,280 --> 00:28:50,360 Speaker 3: Maybe equality as well. 484 00:28:50,400 --> 00:28:53,360 Speaker 4: And that will also allow creating so called lead markets 485 00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:56,800 Speaker 4: in Europe, providing consumers with the clear reference they can 486 00:28:56,920 --> 00:28:59,280 Speaker 4: use when they buy a car, and they in that 487 00:28:59,360 --> 00:29:01,479 Speaker 4: way they can choice also on the base of the 488 00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:04,240 Speaker 4: of those environmental dimensions of the steel. 489 00:29:05,080 --> 00:29:06,240 Speaker 5: Okay, great. 490 00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:10,920 Speaker 2: And in terms of SEABAM, you mentioned SEABAM earlier. How 491 00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:12,240 Speaker 2: important do you see that? Really? 492 00:29:12,840 --> 00:29:17,200 Speaker 4: I mean, that's that was nicely put in the introductory 493 00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:20,520 Speaker 4: presentation by Bloomberg, that it's really a key thing, to 494 00:29:21,240 --> 00:29:25,680 Speaker 4: key element to allow energy intensive industries in Europe to 495 00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:29,040 Speaker 4: have a level playing field. It will start applying soon 496 00:29:29,160 --> 00:29:32,920 Speaker 4: only to a limited number of products. So it's an 497 00:29:32,920 --> 00:29:35,440 Speaker 4: important element of the puzzle. But as I said, I 498 00:29:35,440 --> 00:29:39,080 Speaker 4: think we have to also think more about downstream products. 499 00:29:39,120 --> 00:29:44,000 Speaker 4: You know, wind turbines, batteries, sprill do as well, but 500 00:29:44,040 --> 00:29:47,960 Speaker 4: there's scope to do much more than those upstream products 501 00:29:48,280 --> 00:29:49,680 Speaker 4: covered by SEBAM. 502 00:29:49,760 --> 00:29:52,400 Speaker 2: Okay, So SEABAM does seem to be one of those 503 00:29:52,480 --> 00:29:57,160 Speaker 2: level in the playing field type roles, and we actually 504 00:29:57,160 --> 00:30:00,720 Speaker 2: saw my country. It seems to create different anxiety and 505 00:30:01,640 --> 00:30:03,680 Speaker 2: depending on where you are in the world, they sort 506 00:30:03,720 --> 00:30:07,720 Speaker 2: of they believe in SEABAM or they're more stressed about 507 00:30:07,720 --> 00:30:10,440 Speaker 2: it actually some of the developing world, certainly as we 508 00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:16,640 Speaker 2: saw with the prices going on. And then so could 509 00:30:16,680 --> 00:30:21,560 Speaker 2: you characterize it in your view the trading relationship with 510 00:30:21,640 --> 00:30:23,680 Speaker 2: China and US, how do you think we should think 511 00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:24,120 Speaker 2: about that? 512 00:30:25,560 --> 00:30:27,680 Speaker 7: That's a bit concern, That's a big concern. Now. I 513 00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:28,840 Speaker 7: fully understand that. 514 00:30:30,560 --> 00:30:34,960 Speaker 6: US have to and are willing and committed to contain China. 515 00:30:35,480 --> 00:30:36,960 Speaker 7: There have been. 516 00:30:38,560 --> 00:30:41,360 Speaker 6: Put under huge stress because of the growth in China 517 00:30:41,560 --> 00:30:45,200 Speaker 6: and also techno knowledgy and military advancement, so they have 518 00:30:45,240 --> 00:30:48,120 Speaker 6: to do something. I think they have really a tough 519 00:30:48,160 --> 00:30:51,160 Speaker 6: grip on China because China is not growing because of 520 00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:52,400 Speaker 6: the American sunctions. 521 00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:54,800 Speaker 7: There are a lot of lots of growth in there. 522 00:30:55,640 --> 00:30:59,400 Speaker 6: I mentioned stock markets are really down, a labor market 523 00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:03,680 Speaker 6: is complicated. It so China is really suffering under the 524 00:31:03,840 --> 00:31:06,480 Speaker 6: under the sanction scheme. I think we have to be 525 00:31:06,640 --> 00:31:11,360 Speaker 6: careful because you know, if we, if we overs let's say, 526 00:31:11,520 --> 00:31:15,040 Speaker 6: if we if this conflict gets out of control and 527 00:31:15,160 --> 00:31:18,040 Speaker 6: too far, the whole world will suffer a lot. And 528 00:31:18,080 --> 00:31:20,239 Speaker 6: what we what we currently say, and we have been 529 00:31:20,360 --> 00:31:24,480 Speaker 6: and I was really concerned about the poll there that 530 00:31:24,600 --> 00:31:27,760 Speaker 6: sixty percent would ask for higher input taxes now here 531 00:31:27,800 --> 00:31:31,320 Speaker 6: in this room, which is educated people, and this is 532 00:31:31,680 --> 00:31:36,080 Speaker 6: very concerning because then the energy transition will take much longer. 533 00:31:36,240 --> 00:31:41,680 Speaker 6: Everything will become more expensive. We will have a continuous 534 00:31:41,720 --> 00:31:46,600 Speaker 6: inflation if we really and I'm in a semiconductor industry 535 00:31:46,640 --> 00:31:49,480 Speaker 6: and we're now trying to get all those companies out of. 536 00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:51,680 Speaker 7: Taiwan here to Europe and to the US. 537 00:31:52,200 --> 00:31:56,000 Speaker 6: That will double the prices of semiconductors. And if we, 538 00:31:56,200 --> 00:31:58,960 Speaker 6: if we, if we get further into this conflict, and 539 00:31:59,000 --> 00:32:03,840 Speaker 6: we had about three thousand constraints in text, constraints when 540 00:32:03,880 --> 00:32:06,440 Speaker 6: it comes to free trade only the last two years 541 00:32:06,440 --> 00:32:09,720 Speaker 6: built up mostly because of this tariff. And this for 542 00:32:09,840 --> 00:32:12,840 Speaker 6: me is the biggest concern for the energy transition. I'm 543 00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:15,200 Speaker 6: an optimist. I think we can stop climate change, and 544 00:32:15,520 --> 00:32:18,440 Speaker 6: probably not at one point five, but probably one point 545 00:32:18,480 --> 00:32:20,800 Speaker 6: seven or something like that, because we have very positive 546 00:32:20,840 --> 00:32:24,640 Speaker 6: science as well. But if we have this conflict and 547 00:32:24,680 --> 00:32:29,360 Speaker 6: we have continuous and we will have then continuous inflation 548 00:32:29,440 --> 00:32:32,080 Speaker 6: because a lot of the zero inflation over the past 549 00:32:32,160 --> 00:32:35,040 Speaker 6: years we had because of China, because China has become 550 00:32:35,120 --> 00:32:40,320 Speaker 6: solar now two euros to ten cent in ten years, 551 00:32:40,400 --> 00:32:43,600 Speaker 6: and batteries the same no cost degrees of twenty percent area. 552 00:32:44,280 --> 00:32:46,920 Speaker 6: So if we take that away from the world and 553 00:32:46,960 --> 00:32:50,440 Speaker 6: we have two or three ecosystems, everything will become more expensive. 554 00:32:50,480 --> 00:32:54,920 Speaker 6: We will have continued inflation, and then we will have high. 555 00:32:54,760 --> 00:32:57,959 Speaker 7: Cost of capital. And the high cost of capital is 556 00:32:58,000 --> 00:32:58,280 Speaker 7: for me. 557 00:32:58,400 --> 00:33:02,240 Speaker 6: We discussed it yesterday, the biggest concern in the energy transition, 558 00:33:02,320 --> 00:33:06,040 Speaker 6: because we need so much capital for doing all those renewables, 559 00:33:06,080 --> 00:33:10,640 Speaker 6: all those huge investments, even in hydrogen and other things. 560 00:33:11,600 --> 00:33:16,360 Speaker 6: The biggest concern for me is continuous inflation because of 561 00:33:16,560 --> 00:33:20,000 Speaker 6: trade barriers, because of the conflict between China and the US. 562 00:33:20,560 --> 00:33:26,520 Speaker 2: My view, yeah, yeah, you trade as freely as possible, 563 00:33:27,000 --> 00:33:28,080 Speaker 2: so I would wait, but. 564 00:33:28,120 --> 00:33:30,680 Speaker 6: I would recommend no, we take them very seriously. We 565 00:33:31,480 --> 00:33:33,640 Speaker 6: get tough with China, but we make. 566 00:33:33,600 --> 00:33:34,280 Speaker 7: Use of China. 567 00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:38,200 Speaker 2: Please can join me in thanking my panelist for discussing. 568 00:33:38,360 --> 00:33:43,800 Speaker 2: Thank you. 569 00:33:49,960 --> 00:33:53,120 Speaker 1: Today's episode of Switched On was produced by Cam Gray 570 00:33:53,320 --> 00:33:56,880 Speaker 1: with production assistants from Kamala Shelling. Bloomberg n EF is 571 00:33:56,920 --> 00:34:00,000 Speaker 1: a service provided by Bloomberg Finance LP and it's affiliates. 572 00:34:00,120 --> 00:34:02,800 Speaker 1: This recording does not constitute, nor should it be construed, 573 00:34:02,800 --> 00:34:06,600 Speaker 1: as investment in vice, investment recommendations, or a recommendation as 574 00:34:06,640 --> 00:34:09,480 Speaker 1: to an investment or other strategy. Bloomberg ANIAC should not 575 00:34:09,520 --> 00:34:12,520 Speaker 1: be considered as information sufficient upon which to base an 576 00:34:12,600 --> 00:34:15,759 Speaker 1: investment decision. Neither Bloomberg Finance LP nor any of its 577 00:34:15,760 --> 00:34:19,480 Speaker 1: affiliates makes any representation or warranty as to the accuracy 578 00:34:19,560 --> 00:34:22,360 Speaker 1: or completeness of the information contained in this recording, and 579 00:34:22,480 --> 00:34:26,000 Speaker 1: any liability as a result of this recording is expressly disclaimed.