WEBVTT - Part One: Oscar Wilde: A Story That Was Way More Important Than I Realized

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<v Speaker 1>Cool Zone Media.

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<v Speaker 2>Hello, and welcome to Cool People Did Cool Stuff, which

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<v Speaker 2>is a podcast and it's about the things it says

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<v Speaker 2>it's about. And I'm Margaret Kiljoy and I'm the host

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<v Speaker 2>of the podcast Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff. But

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<v Speaker 2>I have a guest today, which is good because I

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<v Speaker 2>wouldn't be able to keep up vamping by myself for

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<v Speaker 2>very long. And my guest is Chelsea Weber Smith, the

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<v Speaker 2>host of American Hysteria.

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<v Speaker 1>Hello, Margaret, thank you so much for having me.

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<v Speaker 2>Thanks.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm always it's always a joy to get to see

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<v Speaker 1>your face.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I said thanks instead of you're welcome. It's like

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<v Speaker 2>when you go to the grocery store and you and

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<v Speaker 2>you have the wrong interaction. Do you ever have the

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<v Speaker 2>wrong interaction with the person who's checking you out where

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<v Speaker 2>they're like, have a good day and you're or they're

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<v Speaker 2>like nope, I can't even do it right on the

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<v Speaker 2>top of my head, I've completely failed at this.

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<v Speaker 1>No, I'm perfect and have never had an embarrassing public.

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<v Speaker 2>Thanks for your purchase, and you go you too, Yeah, yeah, exactly,

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<v Speaker 2>that's what I was going for.

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<v Speaker 1>And Hi, Sophie, it's really nice to see you.

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<v Speaker 2>Saving me today is Sophie, you're the producer.

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<v Speaker 1>I just produced you.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I'm saved. That is what a producer's job is

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<v Speaker 2>on podcast if they're on MIC, is basically to save

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<v Speaker 2>the host. And I am very grateful to you too.

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<v Speaker 2>Did the bit twice, well done, Thank you. Our audio

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<v Speaker 2>engineer is danel Hi, danel Hey, dan Hi, and our

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<v Speaker 2>theme music was written for us by unwoman So American Hysteria.

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<v Speaker 2>Would you say that it is a podcast that is

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<v Speaker 2>sometimes about moral panics.

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<v Speaker 1>I would say that that's very accurate. Yes, we do

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<v Speaker 1>moral panics. We've been really on a big urban legends

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<v Speaker 1>kick lately, so we have like folks call in and

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<v Speaker 1>tell us about urban legends they heard growing up, and

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<v Speaker 1>we do like massive deep dives on those. We just

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<v Speaker 1>did like a gang initiation in season. If you remember

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<v Speaker 1>the story of the gang members who would murder anyone

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<v Speaker 1>who flashed their lights at them when they were driving

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<v Speaker 1>on the highway, you know, so we kind of dove

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<v Speaker 1>into that and the implications of that on the criminal

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<v Speaker 1>justice system, you know, lies about gang members and antique

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<v Speaker 1>gang legislation. So yeah, we just kind of will use

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<v Speaker 1>kind of these fun stories to get into deeper parts

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<v Speaker 1>of culture and politics.

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<v Speaker 2>I actually started listening to that particular episode of the

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<v Speaker 2>gang Initiations and then this is a terrible part of

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<v Speaker 2>the story. I had a friend who was murdered in

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<v Speaker 2>a gang initiation.

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<v Speaker 1>No way, okay, all right, yeah it happens.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, he was a squatter, someone killed him. And so

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<v Speaker 2>I had this like moment of like, I'm going to

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<v Speaker 2>listen to this tomorrow.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah that's completely fair.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, but yes, moral panics. I was like, what if

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<v Speaker 2>we talked this week about a moral panic? But then

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<v Speaker 2>and I found one that's not American.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh interesting, Okay, it.

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<v Speaker 2>Turns out we're not unique.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh no, we are not as much as we think

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<v Speaker 1>we are.

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<v Speaker 2>Ye to say, which goes against everything I've been taught.

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<v Speaker 2>The one thing I think we're unique about is her

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<v Speaker 2>belief in her uniqueness.

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<v Speaker 1>Yes.

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<v Speaker 2>Absolutely, So today we're going to talk about one of

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<v Speaker 2>the greatest moral panics in English history, and one that

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<v Speaker 2>we're seeing some frightening echoes of today we are talking

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<v Speaker 2>about I'm curious when you'll figure ot what we're talking about.

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<v Speaker 2>We're I'm gonna talk about the wittiest and perhaps the

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<v Speaker 2>most aggressively misquoted man in the history of the English language.

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<v Speaker 2>Oscar Wilde, Oscar Wild fun fun, all right, Yeah, I

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<v Speaker 2>think that that, like the runner up is Einstein. If

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<v Speaker 2>someone says something, if you want to quote to sound smart,

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<v Speaker 2>you pretend like Einstein said it. And if you want

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<v Speaker 2>it to sound witty, you pretend like Oscar Wild said.

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<v Speaker 1>It, or like pretentious. Maybe that is true.

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<v Speaker 2>Too, Yes, yes, that is a thing that one could fairly.

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<v Speaker 1>Say, Oh, this is gonna be fun.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm really excited. Yeah, Oscar Wilde. And this is how

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<v Speaker 2>I kind of came up knowing about Oscar Wild. Oscar

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<v Speaker 2>Wild is painted by most history. Yeah, okay, what do

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<v Speaker 2>you know of Oscar Wild before I get into it?

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<v Speaker 1>Okay? Sure, amazing writer, terrible poet, and I Picture of

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<v Speaker 1>Dorian Gray was one of my favorite books in high school,

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<v Speaker 1>for sure. And I know that he was kind of

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<v Speaker 1>one of the outspoken figures in the earliest, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>queer movement. I don't know if he would like to

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<v Speaker 1>be called that, but you know, he was very much

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<v Speaker 1>a decadent who loved to admire beautiful things as a

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<v Speaker 1>somewhat rich individual, and eventually he'd go to trial pretty

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<v Speaker 1>much for being gay and creating. I believe of scene content.

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<v Speaker 1>I guess we'll find out.

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<v Speaker 2>So what I love about that is all of that

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<v Speaker 2>is true. He's also just the surface.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, love it.

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<v Speaker 2>And although except the one thing I would say that actually,

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<v Speaker 2>after jail he wrote a really good poem.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh okay, all right, The Ballad.

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<v Speaker 2>Of Reading Jail is I think an amazing poem. I

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<v Speaker 2>think he probably had to suffer. He actually probably would

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<v Speaker 2>agree with this. We'll talk about this. He actually probably

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<v Speaker 2>had to suffer before he could write poetry.

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<v Speaker 1>Absolutely absolutely.

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<v Speaker 2>Oscar Wilde is painted by most history as sort of

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<v Speaker 2>an irreverent quip machine who is good for quote books

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<v Speaker 2>and not much else. And you know, I mean people

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<v Speaker 2>like the picture of Dorian Gray and people like the

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<v Speaker 2>importance of being earnest right, Oh yeah. The movement he's

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<v Speaker 2>most notably attached to is the aesthetic movement, and this

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<v Speaker 2>movement and he are criticized as being all style with

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<v Speaker 2>no substance. That is the primary thing that we hear

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<v Speaker 2>about Oscar wild That's not true, or that is not all.

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<v Speaker 2>Oscar Wilde was a politically and theologically engaged. He was

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<v Speaker 2>politically and theologically engaged as an Irish intellectual living in

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<v Speaker 2>the heart of Empire while playing the pop star. With

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<v Speaker 2>a single essay, he contributed massively to anarchist socialist theory.

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<v Speaker 2>He contributed financially to those committed who were committing direct action.

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<v Speaker 2>He was put up on charges for consentially fucking other

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<v Speaker 2>men and was sentenced to two years of hard labor,

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<v Speaker 2>which destroyed his health. He soon died, and in doing

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<v Speaker 2>so he became a martyr to the cause of queer

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<v Speaker 2>rights and a bit tangentially, he became a martyr to

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<v Speaker 2>Irish nationalism in the anarchist movement.

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<v Speaker 1>Aw, you're already blowing my mind.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, no, I like and even I knew like the

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<v Speaker 2>cliffs notes of this. People are like, oh, Oscar wild

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<v Speaker 2>like once called himself an anarchist. Isn't that cool? And

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<v Speaker 2>we're like, yeah, cool, we'll take him whatever. Yeah, I

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<v Speaker 2>didn't really believe it. No, I've read a lot about

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<v Speaker 2>it now and I'm going to make that case, all right.

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<v Speaker 2>He wasn't just a gay man on trial. He was

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<v Speaker 2>homosexuality on trial in England. This is the moral panic

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<v Speaker 2>that I'm referring to. He was every gay man before

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<v Speaker 2>and every gay man to come. On top of that,

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<v Speaker 2>his trial was framed by many as a condemnation of

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<v Speaker 2>not just his homosexuality, but also his irishness and his rebellious,

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<v Speaker 2>untamable spirit that was influencing culture away from colonial Victorian ideals.

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<v Speaker 2>And so it's his socialism and his irishness are also part.

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<v Speaker 1>Of this.

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<v Speaker 2>Western imperial civilization itself went on like was on the

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<v Speaker 2>line with the trial of Oscar Wilde. The spoiler, Western

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<v Speaker 2>imperial civilization won that particular trial. Yes, shocking, And he wrote,

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<v Speaker 2>especially at the end of his life, he wrote unique

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<v Speaker 2>queer anarchist Christian mystic theory that still inspires wonder and

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<v Speaker 2>the reader today. And yeah, he was really fucking votable.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>And not only did he practice the love that dare

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<v Speaker 2>not speak its name, his trash fire of a lover

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<v Speaker 2>coined the Love that dare not speak its name about

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<v Speaker 2>fucking him.

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<v Speaker 1>Wow. Wow.

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<v Speaker 2>So the love that dare not speak its name is

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<v Speaker 2>fucking Oscar wild Wow, which many people got to do.

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<v Speaker 1>It's hot, Yeah, it's very hot.

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<v Speaker 2>So Oscar wild or rather Oscar Fingalo flaerty Willis Wilde.

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<v Speaker 1>I can see why why he may have shortened it.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, he had three middle names. He was born in

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<v Speaker 2>eighteen fifty four in Dublin in Ireland. He had Protestant

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<v Speaker 2>parents who were deeply involved in Irish nationalism. Just to

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<v Speaker 2>get one Bingo square out of the way right away.

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<v Speaker 2>It's a new Bingo square, but it's been coming up

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<v Speaker 2>a lot. Irish nationalism was not Catholic versus Protestant, and

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<v Speaker 2>only the colonial force of England and the theological authoritarians

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<v Speaker 2>in Rome wants you to believe it is all right.

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<v Speaker 2>He had too many middle names. They are all references

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<v Speaker 2>to various Irish nationalist things because his parents. His parents

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<v Speaker 2>are bougie as shit, don't get me wrong. He comes

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<v Speaker 2>from an important family, like with a capital I and

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<v Speaker 2>the other way that you indicate an important family, which

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<v Speaker 2>is clickable links of your parents' names in Wikipedia. Yes,

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<v Speaker 2>and as well as one of his great grandfathers one

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<v Speaker 2>of his like sec like cousins once removed, and his

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<v Speaker 2>great uncle was Charles Maturin, who wrote Melmoth the Wanderer,

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<v Speaker 2>which is like one of the early Gothic novels. I've

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<v Speaker 2>actually not read Melmouth the Wanderer. His rich ass parents

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<v Speaker 2>were kind of interesting. Okay, So usually what happens on

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<v Speaker 2>the show is I'll like cover a man, and then

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<v Speaker 2>they're the end of reading it, I'll be like, wait,

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<v Speaker 2>this man sucked and he was terrible. This does not

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<v Speaker 2>happen to Oscar Wilde. H hey, it does happen to

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<v Speaker 2>his parents. Wow, I had this whole thing written about

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<v Speaker 2>how amazing and interesting his parents are and then and

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<v Speaker 2>maybe we'll talk about it. Uh huh. His father was

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<v Speaker 2>Sir William Wilde, which is a kind of sick name.

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<v Speaker 2>I got a name, like, there's all Sir Willy Wilde.

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<v Speaker 2>He actually his brother's name Willy Wilde, and actually goes

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<v Speaker 2>by Willie. Sir William Wilde's a knight. He's knighted in

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<v Speaker 2>eighteen sixty four when Oscar's ten, so he doesn't start

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<v Speaker 2>off knighted, and he's knighted because he's like a really

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<v Speaker 2>really good surgeon. William did the thing that you can

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<v Speaker 2>do when you're rich and like, which is you can

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<v Speaker 2>do a million different things with your life because who's

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<v Speaker 2>going to stop you? And this is what you should do. Well,

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<v Speaker 2>actually what you should do if you're riches give all

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<v Speaker 2>of your money away and live like everyone else. But

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<v Speaker 2>if you're not going to do that, at least be

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<v Speaker 2>fucking interesting, boring rich people are the terrible why would you, yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>like do something. Yeah, I know his parents, they decide

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<v Speaker 2>to be interesting. Sir Billy, who did not go by

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<v Speaker 2>that to my knowledge, was an eye and ear surgeon

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<v Speaker 2>who wrote the books on those things, and apparently like

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<v Speaker 2>some of the things are still called like the wild

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<v Speaker 2>Cone and things like that. I'm not an ant and

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<v Speaker 2>I didn't bother asking my E and T friend about

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<v Speaker 2>this because I only learned this part very recently. He

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<v Speaker 2>was also a folklorist and he was like super like

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<v Speaker 2>down with helping people like he would. He was a doctor,

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<v Speaker 2>and he was like a doctor to like the fabulously

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<v Speaker 2>rich and stuff. But he also you could just like

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<v Speaker 2>call him and be like I don't have any money,

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<v Speaker 2>and you'd be like, tell me a good story.

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<v Speaker 1>Wow, okay.

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<v Speaker 2>And so he collected folklore in exchange for doing medical work.

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<v Speaker 1>That is really cool. That's really really cool. And I mean,

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<v Speaker 1>as someone who dreams to be in the folkal or lineage,

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<v Speaker 1>I always appreciate someone who collects stories because if you

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<v Speaker 1>don't collect the stories, they're going to disappear.

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<v Speaker 2>So I love that, I know. And it's like whenever

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<v Speaker 2>I read the Irish stories I'm like, oh, it's cool

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<v Speaker 2>if someone went around and rescued all these stories in

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<v Speaker 2>the late nineteenth century. I wish someone had done it

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<v Speaker 2>before the Catholic Church changed it dramatically.

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<v Speaker 1>Yes, that would have been nice.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and I mean some of that exists too. But like, anyway,

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<v Speaker 2>one time, Sir William went on pilgrimage to the Holy

0:12:14.040 --> 0:12:16.960
<v Speaker 2>Land and he like while he was there, two porpoises

0:12:17.080 --> 0:12:20.160
<v Speaker 2>jumped on board of the ship, so he like dissected them,

0:12:20.200 --> 0:12:22.040
<v Speaker 2>and then he wrote a two volume book on the

0:12:22.160 --> 0:12:26.160
<v Speaker 2>nursing habits of porpoises, just to like get an idea

0:12:26.200 --> 0:12:30.479
<v Speaker 2>of this man. Yes, he also he was an amateur Egyptologist.

0:12:30.480 --> 0:12:31.960
<v Speaker 2>And now we get into the like kind of sketchy

0:12:32.040 --> 0:12:34.439
<v Speaker 2>you know, like sure or the stuff that sure don't

0:12:34.440 --> 0:12:37.360
<v Speaker 2>look good. He was obsessed with Egypt like everyone in

0:12:37.360 --> 0:12:39.120
<v Speaker 2>Western Europe at the time, and.

0:12:39.040 --> 0:12:41.679
<v Speaker 1>He like Domania. Isn't that what it's called?

0:12:42.280 --> 0:12:46.040
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, this man was probably smoking some mummy ashes, you know.

0:12:46.480 --> 0:12:49.400
<v Speaker 1>Oh yeah, the style at the time as they did. Yeah.

0:12:49.720 --> 0:12:54.120
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, So he like explored tombs and you know, unearthed

0:12:54.120 --> 0:12:59.560
<v Speaker 2>the mummy, and he collected embalmed ibises. He also fucked

0:12:59.559 --> 0:13:04.280
<v Speaker 2>around all and what I first read was that he

0:13:04.320 --> 0:13:07.079
<v Speaker 2>did this in pops. The best way that one could

0:13:07.080 --> 0:13:10.000
<v Speaker 2>do that in that he he fucked around a lot.

0:13:10.040 --> 0:13:12.400
<v Speaker 2>He had a bunch of kids out of wedlock, and

0:13:13.080 --> 0:13:15.640
<v Speaker 2>the big reason he was immoral by the standards of

0:13:15.640 --> 0:13:18.880
<v Speaker 2>the time is that he cared about his bastard children

0:13:18.960 --> 0:13:22.120
<v Speaker 2>and he like let them come over and he didn't

0:13:22.160 --> 0:13:25.560
<v Speaker 2>exclude them from the family, and they were like at

0:13:25.720 --> 0:13:30.400
<v Speaker 2>the family events and stuff. You know, wow, what a monster,

0:13:30.960 --> 0:13:33.160
<v Speaker 2>I know. And he didn't cut the mothers out of

0:13:33.160 --> 0:13:35.720
<v Speaker 2>his life either. There's like this whole thing where like

0:13:36.520 --> 0:13:38.880
<v Speaker 2>one of the mothers of his children like came veiled

0:13:39.040 --> 0:13:41.920
<v Speaker 2>at his bedside as he was dying or whatever, and like.

0:13:43.120 --> 0:13:44.120
<v Speaker 1>So queer coded.

0:13:44.520 --> 0:13:51.079
<v Speaker 2>Honestly, that's true. And he died in eighteen seventy six,

0:13:51.120 --> 0:13:53.920
<v Speaker 2>when Oscar's around eighteen. So there's like that version of

0:13:53.960 --> 0:13:58.920
<v Speaker 2>him where he's just like eccentric, a little bit orientalist, like,

0:13:59.720 --> 0:14:04.040
<v Speaker 2>you know, cares about poor people. He was accused of

0:14:04.080 --> 0:14:07.960
<v Speaker 2>drugging a woman and raping her while she was under chloroform,

0:14:08.360 --> 0:14:11.880
<v Speaker 2>uh boy, in his capacity as a doctor, and historians

0:14:11.920 --> 0:14:14.040
<v Speaker 2>like to argue about that because it went to court

0:14:14.120 --> 0:14:18.920
<v Speaker 2>and stuff, and Oscar Wilde's mother, who otherwise looks amazing,

0:14:19.080 --> 0:14:24.520
<v Speaker 2>defended him in that case, and historians seem like genuinely

0:14:24.640 --> 0:14:29.360
<v Speaker 2>mixed about that. And I don't have enough information to opine,

0:14:29.400 --> 0:14:33.760
<v Speaker 2>but it don't look his mother besides, possibly this one

0:14:34.080 --> 0:14:38.120
<v Speaker 2>very not small oversight in her otherwise impeccable morals, was

0:14:38.160 --> 0:14:42.640
<v Speaker 2>really cool. Jane Wilde. This is who Oscar wild takes after.

0:14:43.560 --> 0:14:47.160
<v Speaker 2>Jane Wilde. Wears weird clothes and does weird stuff and

0:14:47.280 --> 0:14:49.880
<v Speaker 2>is just like, I'm gonna be a weird lady. That's

0:14:49.960 --> 0:14:52.400
<v Speaker 2>my thing. She spoke ten languages by the time she

0:14:52.480 --> 0:14:55.640
<v Speaker 2>was eighteen. She wasn't actually raised as wealthy as her

0:14:55.720 --> 0:14:57.920
<v Speaker 2>husband was and as her kids were, but I don't

0:14:57.960 --> 0:15:01.840
<v Speaker 2>think she was raised poor. And she also liked to

0:15:01.840 --> 0:15:04.360
<v Speaker 2>claim she was Italian, even though she wasn't. And she

0:15:04.400 --> 0:15:07.560
<v Speaker 2>also claimed to be descended from Dante of Dante's Inferno.

0:15:08.240 --> 0:15:11.080
<v Speaker 2>This is not true, she just like to say it.

0:15:13.680 --> 0:15:15.680
<v Speaker 2>She was a prolific writer, and both her and her

0:15:15.720 --> 0:15:18.920
<v Speaker 2>husband were Irish nationalists, like you know, Irish revolutionaries who

0:15:18.920 --> 0:15:22.160
<v Speaker 2>believed it should be free from England, and she outlived

0:15:22.200 --> 0:15:26.760
<v Speaker 2>her husband by blessed decades. She wrote a bunch of

0:15:26.800 --> 0:15:29.920
<v Speaker 2>books on Irish folklore. She kind of continued her husband's

0:15:29.960 --> 0:15:33.320
<v Speaker 2>work and like actually like really got it published and

0:15:33.320 --> 0:15:34.400
<v Speaker 2>stuff like that.

0:15:34.400 --> 0:15:34.880
<v Speaker 1>That's cool.

0:15:35.600 --> 0:15:38.280
<v Speaker 2>She was also part of the Young Ireland movement of

0:15:38.320 --> 0:15:40.920
<v Speaker 2>the eighteen forties, which was the more radical side of

0:15:40.960 --> 0:15:44.520
<v Speaker 2>Irish independence movement at the time. And this later becomes

0:15:44.520 --> 0:15:47.200
<v Speaker 2>the Irish Republican Brotherhood, which sort of becomes the IRA

0:15:47.360 --> 0:15:50.720
<v Speaker 2>which causes the freedom from Ireland and then causes the troubles,

0:15:50.760 --> 0:15:53.240
<v Speaker 2>and well, I'll blame England, actually have the trouble, the

0:15:53.280 --> 0:15:56.760
<v Speaker 2>troubles be blamed on England. But so she's part of

0:15:56.840 --> 0:16:00.880
<v Speaker 2>like many generations back of a direct line of the

0:16:00.880 --> 0:16:04.920
<v Speaker 2>people who freed Ireland. Okay, she took up a pen

0:16:05.080 --> 0:16:08.880
<v Speaker 2>name when she wrote, which is Speranza, which is Italian

0:16:08.920 --> 0:16:12.480
<v Speaker 2>for hope. Italian nationalism. I was like trying to figure

0:16:12.480 --> 0:16:14.200
<v Speaker 2>out what the Italian thing was once she's like likes

0:16:14.240 --> 0:16:16.480
<v Speaker 2>claiming that she's Italian. But the other thing is that

0:16:17.000 --> 0:16:20.000
<v Speaker 2>Italian nationalism was like the nationalism it was like seen

0:16:20.040 --> 0:16:24.680
<v Speaker 2>as like the original European nationalism, which is means a

0:16:24.720 --> 0:16:28.640
<v Speaker 2>completely different thing, and it does right now. It means

0:16:28.680 --> 0:16:34.359
<v Speaker 2>the whatever you're thinking, it means the opposite opposite. Yes, yeah,

0:16:34.640 --> 0:16:36.200
<v Speaker 2>there's so many things that are going to come up

0:16:36.200 --> 0:16:39.120
<v Speaker 2>in this episode that are exactly the like things that

0:16:39.360 --> 0:16:42.120
<v Speaker 2>don't make any that seem the opposite now, you know,

0:16:43.320 --> 0:16:45.160
<v Speaker 2>or like are just sketchy to talk about.

0:16:45.640 --> 0:16:46.160
<v Speaker 1>Sure, But.

0:16:48.040 --> 0:16:51.080
<v Speaker 2>She wrote poetry, she translated from French and German, and

0:16:51.120 --> 0:16:54.400
<v Speaker 2>she wrote essays with themes like what if we all

0:16:54.440 --> 0:16:56.640
<v Speaker 2>got a bunch of guns and shot the British until

0:16:56.640 --> 0:16:57.520
<v Speaker 2>they left us alone?

0:16:57.960 --> 0:16:59.880
<v Speaker 1>Okay?

0:17:00.200 --> 0:17:03.000
<v Speaker 2>This got her in some trouble, or rather it got

0:17:03.040 --> 0:17:04.240
<v Speaker 2>men around her in trouble.

0:17:04.720 --> 0:17:05.080
<v Speaker 1>Okay.

0:17:07.720 --> 0:17:10.359
<v Speaker 2>The main journal of the Young Ireland movement was called

0:17:10.359 --> 0:17:12.879
<v Speaker 2>The Nation, which was put together by two Catholics and

0:17:12.920 --> 0:17:16.920
<v Speaker 2>one Protestant see the aforementioned footnote. Jane Wilde, or rather

0:17:16.960 --> 0:17:20.919
<v Speaker 2>Speranza wrote for it and got the paper in some trouble,

0:17:21.359 --> 0:17:25.000
<v Speaker 2>and just to say about what Irish nationalism meant at

0:17:25.040 --> 0:17:27.280
<v Speaker 2>the time, because I actually think is really relevant to

0:17:27.359 --> 0:17:29.560
<v Speaker 2>what's going on in Ireland right now, where people I

0:17:29.560 --> 0:17:34.720
<v Speaker 2>think are misrepresenting Irish nationalism to mean racism. Charles Duffy,

0:17:34.840 --> 0:17:37.439
<v Speaker 2>who started The Nation, which was one of the very

0:17:37.480 --> 0:17:40.280
<v Speaker 2>important papers of all of this, is quoted as saying

0:17:40.840 --> 0:17:43.920
<v Speaker 2>that the nationalism that they were building, would just as

0:17:43.960 --> 0:17:47.760
<v Speaker 2>easily embrace quote the stranger who is within our gates

0:17:48.240 --> 0:17:51.280
<v Speaker 2>as quote the irishmen of one hundred generations.

0:17:53.040 --> 0:17:53.640
<v Speaker 1>This was not a.

0:17:53.680 --> 0:17:56.320
<v Speaker 2>Universally held opinion among Irish nationalism, but it was a

0:17:56.359 --> 0:18:01.320
<v Speaker 2>mainstream opinion among Irish nationalism. This is not the out

0:18:01.359 --> 0:18:03.800
<v Speaker 2>their paper when I said that they're the more radical side.

0:18:03.880 --> 0:18:05.640
<v Speaker 2>There's people more radical than them.

0:18:05.840 --> 0:18:06.040
<v Speaker 1>You know.

0:18:08.200 --> 0:18:10.720
<v Speaker 2>The Nation also regularly published a fuckt ton of women.

0:18:11.359 --> 0:18:14.840
<v Speaker 2>Speranza was one of three the Graces because of course

0:18:14.840 --> 0:18:16.919
<v Speaker 2>they still have to become like weirdly misogynistic about how

0:18:16.920 --> 0:18:18.119
<v Speaker 2>they name the women who write for it.

0:18:18.840 --> 0:18:21.000
<v Speaker 1>But it is kind of a badass monarch.

0:18:21.040 --> 0:18:24.960
<v Speaker 2>I know, I don't mind being one of the Graces. Yeah,

0:18:25.000 --> 0:18:27.320
<v Speaker 2>and then there's like four or five women mentioned as

0:18:27.320 --> 0:18:29.520
<v Speaker 2>writing for it besides these three who wrote for it,

0:18:29.560 --> 0:18:32.240
<v Speaker 2>like all the fucking time, who are the Graces? In

0:18:32.280 --> 0:18:36.080
<v Speaker 2>the eighteen forties, the Irish were fighting landlords. The Irish

0:18:36.119 --> 0:18:39.160
<v Speaker 2>were always fighting landlords, so the Nation had a pretty

0:18:39.200 --> 0:18:42.560
<v Speaker 2>militant tone. Speranza wrote, some of that militant shit, there's

0:18:42.640 --> 0:18:46.720
<v Speaker 2>like I want to see a sea of muskets pointing

0:18:46.760 --> 0:18:49.879
<v Speaker 2>towards the sky, listening you know she's a poet, right.

0:18:49.840 --> 0:18:52.919
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, she's a poet. Yeah, which is very helpful. I

0:18:52.960 --> 0:18:56.520
<v Speaker 1>think in these types of situations.

0:18:55.960 --> 0:18:58.680
<v Speaker 2>It really is you gotta yeah, you gotta make it sexy.

0:18:58.359 --> 0:19:01.959
<v Speaker 1>You gotta have that rhetoric. Man. Yeah.

0:19:02.000 --> 0:19:03.960
<v Speaker 2>In eighteen forty eight, which is a year into the

0:19:03.960 --> 0:19:08.359
<v Speaker 2>Potato genocide, revolutions are sweeping Europe and I can't believe

0:19:08.359 --> 0:19:10.200
<v Speaker 2>we haven't covered the revolutions of eighteen forty eight yet.

0:19:10.200 --> 0:19:12.080
<v Speaker 2>I think it's one of those topics. It's like so

0:19:12.240 --> 0:19:15.520
<v Speaker 2>big that I'm like, ooh, it's like the Russian Revolution.

0:19:15.560 --> 0:19:17.320
<v Speaker 2>I haven't covered the Russian Revolution yet, you.

0:19:17.280 --> 0:19:19.199
<v Speaker 1>Know, Yeah, you're gonna need a few episodes for that.

0:19:19.680 --> 0:19:24.439
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, exactly. And she wrote that Ireland should join that

0:19:24.480 --> 0:19:28.920
<v Speaker 2>wave of revolutions. So Charles Duffy, the editor, was put

0:19:28.920 --> 0:19:32.040
<v Speaker 2>on trial for her words, and now they put him

0:19:32.080 --> 0:19:33.720
<v Speaker 2>on trial. I think I've also read the videos on

0:19:33.720 --> 0:19:35.680
<v Speaker 2>trial for some other shit and then this stuff happened.

0:19:35.680 --> 0:19:39.560
<v Speaker 2>But I've read both and they're like, all right, who's

0:19:39.600 --> 0:19:41.720
<v Speaker 2>Beranza And he's like, I'm not fucking telling you that.

0:19:41.760 --> 0:19:43.200
<v Speaker 2>They're like, we're gonna throw you in prison. He's like,

0:19:43.240 --> 0:19:44.600
<v Speaker 2>I'm not fucking telling you that.

0:19:45.160 --> 0:19:48.159
<v Speaker 1>Okay, So he went to trial because they couldn't figure

0:19:48.200 --> 0:19:49.439
<v Speaker 1>out who she was.

0:19:50.200 --> 0:19:52.320
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, basically, okay.

0:19:52.119 --> 0:19:54.840
<v Speaker 1>Well not to say he wouldn't have also been on trial,

0:19:54.840 --> 0:19:57.800
<v Speaker 1>but it wasn't like he took her place. He just

0:19:57.840 --> 0:19:58.600
<v Speaker 1>didn't give her up.

0:19:58.640 --> 0:20:04.000
<v Speaker 2>Okay, right, that's the I mean. I've read two different accounts,

0:20:04.040 --> 0:20:08.040
<v Speaker 2>Like one was that he was went on trial for

0:20:08.280 --> 0:20:11.320
<v Speaker 2>publishing those words, and one was that all of the

0:20:11.359 --> 0:20:16.159
<v Speaker 2>stuff happened while he was on trial for anyway, and

0:20:16.200 --> 0:20:19.800
<v Speaker 2>I don't know which which I believe. So while this

0:20:19.840 --> 0:20:23.560
<v Speaker 2>is happening, she's in court supporting him, and finally she's

0:20:23.640 --> 0:20:26.040
<v Speaker 2>just like she just stands up and she's like, I

0:20:26.080 --> 0:20:27.760
<v Speaker 2>did it, I wrote it.

0:20:28.440 --> 0:20:28.919
<v Speaker 1>That was me.

0:20:30.680 --> 0:20:35.240
<v Speaker 2>And the court ignored her. I think because she was

0:20:35.280 --> 0:20:35.679
<v Speaker 2>a woman.

0:20:36.720 --> 0:20:37.040
<v Speaker 1>Okay.

0:20:37.440 --> 0:20:39.560
<v Speaker 2>I think they were like, now we're good, we're gonna

0:20:39.560 --> 0:20:42.320
<v Speaker 2>fuck because they also were just trying to shut down

0:20:42.359 --> 0:20:46.800
<v Speaker 2>this paper, right right, and they do, they shut down

0:20:46.840 --> 0:20:50.840
<v Speaker 2>the nation. And then Jane Wilde just started it right

0:20:50.880 --> 0:20:52.960
<v Speaker 2>the fuck back up again and is now the editor

0:20:52.960 --> 0:20:56.040
<v Speaker 2>of it. And Crow's feminism more aggressively into the mix,

0:20:56.040 --> 0:20:58.399
<v Speaker 2>and we're talking about the like eighteen forty eight, that

0:20:58.480 --> 0:21:00.000
<v Speaker 2>is some early feminism.

0:20:59.640 --> 0:21:02.240
<v Speaker 1>That's a big deal. Oh yeah, yeah, that's like sixty

0:21:02.359 --> 0:21:03.280
<v Speaker 1>years early.

0:21:03.880 --> 0:21:06.800
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. And this is all before she gets married and

0:21:06.840 --> 0:21:10.320
<v Speaker 2>has Oscar. But the other thing that you should do

0:21:10.440 --> 0:21:14.000
<v Speaker 2>before you get married and give birth to a witty

0:21:14.080 --> 0:21:20.320
<v Speaker 2>and misunderstood man is consume the products that advertise on

0:21:20.400 --> 0:21:25.800
<v Speaker 2>this show as though they are sacrament, as though they

0:21:25.840 --> 0:21:31.520
<v Speaker 2>are holy or unholy whatever. Your preference is the thing

0:21:31.760 --> 0:21:47.360
<v Speaker 2>that will bring you closer to dads. And we're back.

0:21:48.320 --> 0:21:51.600
<v Speaker 2>So she starts off married life pretty wealthy, and you know,

0:21:51.800 --> 0:21:54.879
<v Speaker 2>she marries rich doctor guy, and then the rich doctor

0:21:54.920 --> 0:21:58.200
<v Speaker 2>man dies young and it turns out there's not so

0:21:58.280 --> 0:22:00.120
<v Speaker 2>much money after all.

0:22:00.160 --> 0:22:02.280
<v Speaker 1>I was like, I was like, I was like, scam

0:22:02.320 --> 0:22:02.720
<v Speaker 1>all right.

0:22:03.000 --> 0:22:05.680
<v Speaker 2>I know, for a moment, I'm like, well, how does

0:22:05.720 --> 0:22:08.760
<v Speaker 2>he die? Like maybe you know, like, oh my rapist husband,

0:22:08.800 --> 0:22:12.159
<v Speaker 2>Oh we fell down the stairs. Now I think I

0:22:12.160 --> 0:22:15.720
<v Speaker 2>think he dies naturally. And and the family actually struggles

0:22:15.720 --> 0:22:19.439
<v Speaker 2>a lot, but in that like aristocratic struggle way, like

0:22:20.440 --> 0:22:22.840
<v Speaker 2>they are not homeless. They are not going to be homeless.

0:22:24.200 --> 0:22:26.600
<v Speaker 2>Well at the end of their life, that's different. Sure,

0:22:27.480 --> 0:22:31.720
<v Speaker 2>So those are his parents. Oscar Wilde is a mama's boy.

0:22:32.400 --> 0:22:37.080
<v Speaker 2>And here's I know, here's some stuff. That's some people

0:22:37.080 --> 0:22:40.120
<v Speaker 2>who don't like Oscar wild will read too much into

0:22:40.240 --> 0:22:41.960
<v Speaker 2>and those of us who do like Oscar wild will

0:22:41.960 --> 0:22:44.879
<v Speaker 2>also read too much into. Right, his mother had wanted

0:22:44.880 --> 0:22:47.680
<v Speaker 2>a girl, and so while all little boys at the

0:22:47.720 --> 0:22:51.040
<v Speaker 2>time in Dublin were wearing dresses, right like that was

0:22:51.080 --> 0:22:51.919
<v Speaker 2>just what you do.

0:22:53.000 --> 0:22:56.199
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, there's a great photo of Fdr too wearing just

0:22:56.359 --> 0:22:59.359
<v Speaker 1>a gorgeous little gown with the ringlet.

0:23:00.200 --> 0:23:06.119
<v Speaker 2>Oh yeah yeah, Oscar Wilde was dressed in like particularly feminine,

0:23:06.200 --> 0:23:09.760
<v Speaker 2>like frilly, lacey dresses and stuff like.

0:23:09.880 --> 0:23:11.960
<v Speaker 1>Note, we're like notably yeah, Like.

0:23:11.840 --> 0:23:15.440
<v Speaker 2>People are like noticing, like, okay, because Jane Wild's a

0:23:15.480 --> 0:23:17.679
<v Speaker 2>little bit weird, you know, and this is like among

0:23:17.760 --> 0:23:19.200
<v Speaker 2>the weird things that she's doing.

0:23:19.359 --> 0:23:20.600
<v Speaker 1>Certified eccentric.

0:23:20.800 --> 0:23:25.479
<v Speaker 2>Yeah yeah, until she has another kid. She has a daughter. Finally,

0:23:25.480 --> 0:23:27.399
<v Speaker 2>he has an older brother named Willie, and is a

0:23:27.440 --> 0:23:32.600
<v Speaker 2>bunch of older half siblings, including two half sisters who

0:23:32.800 --> 0:23:36.720
<v Speaker 2>die tragically in a fire, which happened way more often

0:23:36.720 --> 0:23:38.400
<v Speaker 2>back in the day. You usually walking around a night

0:23:38.400 --> 0:23:40.280
<v Speaker 2>clothes and everything's lit by candles, and then you're on

0:23:40.359 --> 0:23:41.120
<v Speaker 2>fire and die.

0:23:41.560 --> 0:23:45.080
<v Speaker 1>Yeah yeah, and then the whole city birds.

0:23:45.119 --> 0:23:49.119
<v Speaker 2>I know. Yeah, so he ends up with a younger

0:23:49.160 --> 0:23:53.800
<v Speaker 2>sister named a Sola, and Sola is going to die

0:23:53.840 --> 0:23:57.400
<v Speaker 2>of a fever when she's ten, and Oscar Wild never

0:23:57.560 --> 0:23:59.760
<v Speaker 2>really gets over this, and he keeps a lock of

0:23:59.760 --> 0:24:01.919
<v Speaker 2>all his hair and a satchel in his pocket for

0:24:01.960 --> 0:24:05.879
<v Speaker 2>the rest of his life. He lives at home as

0:24:05.880 --> 0:24:08.040
<v Speaker 2>a rich kid until he's nine, and he has French

0:24:08.080 --> 0:24:12.480
<v Speaker 2>and German servants that have various servant names like wet

0:24:12.560 --> 0:24:17.399
<v Speaker 2>nurse and governess and stuff. I don't know whatever, fucking

0:24:17.480 --> 0:24:20.840
<v Speaker 2>rich kid and French and German servants are teaching him

0:24:20.920 --> 0:24:24.080
<v Speaker 2>languages and shit, and then he's off to school. He

0:24:24.160 --> 0:24:27.080
<v Speaker 2>is a voracious speed reader. He claims that he can

0:24:27.119 --> 0:24:29.760
<v Speaker 2>read both facing pages of a book at the same time.

0:24:30.840 --> 0:24:32.560
<v Speaker 2>What I don't believe.

0:24:32.359 --> 0:24:36.120
<v Speaker 1>Him, No, absolutely not, but I like it.

0:24:36.440 --> 0:24:43.119
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, like people, he can read really fast and he

0:24:43.359 --> 0:24:48.159
<v Speaker 2>is a weirdo fucking goth kid at school. From the jump,

0:24:48.880 --> 0:24:52.199
<v Speaker 2>it's not just a dandy. He's like the dandy. He

0:24:52.359 --> 0:24:55.480
<v Speaker 2>is the archetype of dandy, from which all, he's not

0:24:55.480 --> 0:24:57.960
<v Speaker 2>the first dandy, but like he is the dandy right.

0:24:59.400 --> 0:25:02.280
<v Speaker 2>One of his affectations his whole life is he always

0:25:02.280 --> 0:25:04.959
<v Speaker 2>acts like he's like lounging around and living an idle

0:25:05.000 --> 0:25:09.400
<v Speaker 2>life and he never does any work. In reality, whenever

0:25:09.480 --> 0:25:15.159
<v Speaker 2>people aren't watching, he is working. Oh he is. He

0:25:15.280 --> 0:25:18.920
<v Speaker 2>is reading, he is writing. He like practices his witticisms

0:25:18.960 --> 0:25:19.600
<v Speaker 2>in the mirror.

0:25:20.359 --> 0:25:21.639
<v Speaker 1>Oh that's cute.

0:25:22.040 --> 0:25:25.080
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, he puts in the hours. Like all the photos

0:25:25.080 --> 0:25:28.240
<v Speaker 2>of him are like him, like very lounged out. Right.

0:25:28.280 --> 0:25:33.440
<v Speaker 1>We see him on a fainting couch in imagination. Yes,

0:25:33.880 --> 0:25:37.679
<v Speaker 1>his wrist just limply like hanging down. Yeah.

0:25:37.960 --> 0:25:41.399
<v Speaker 2>He's a perfect man, yes, completely perfect. But I like

0:25:41.480 --> 0:25:42.160
<v Speaker 2>him quite a lot.

0:25:42.400 --> 0:25:44.320
<v Speaker 1>Yes, I like him quite a lot as well.

0:25:44.680 --> 0:25:48.199
<v Speaker 2>And yeah, and I really like that this is he

0:25:48.240 --> 0:25:50.200
<v Speaker 2>actually just at the end of the day, he's like, no,

0:25:50.320 --> 0:25:53.159
<v Speaker 2>he's he's working. He is reading constantly. He speaks a

0:25:53.160 --> 0:25:57.080
<v Speaker 2>bunch of languages. But it's not he's smart. But he

0:25:57.359 --> 0:25:58.480
<v Speaker 2>has to put in the work too.

0:25:59.000 --> 0:26:00.480
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

0:26:00.520 --> 0:26:04.560
<v Speaker 2>His biography, for someone who's very well documented, is really messy.

0:26:04.640 --> 0:26:07.480
<v Speaker 2>There's a lot of scholarly arguments about the accuracy of

0:26:07.520 --> 0:26:12.200
<v Speaker 2>his various biographies, and he was not above embellishing the truth,

0:26:12.800 --> 0:26:15.520
<v Speaker 2>much like his mother. I don't think he would mind

0:26:15.560 --> 0:26:19.880
<v Speaker 2>that he's so often misquoted. He also, like every now

0:26:19.920 --> 0:26:22.520
<v Speaker 2>and then someone would like say something witty around him,

0:26:22.560 --> 0:26:24.520
<v Speaker 2>and then they'd be like, fuck, you're gonna steal that,

0:26:24.560 --> 0:26:26.760
<v Speaker 2>aren't you, And he's like, yeah.

0:26:27.160 --> 0:26:30.720
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I am. It's what I do. Being a podcaster.

0:26:33.680 --> 0:26:36.480
<v Speaker 1>He would definitely had a podcast.

0:26:36.160 --> 0:26:39.200
<v Speaker 2>And it would have been good. That's the thing. Most

0:26:39.200 --> 0:26:41.359
<v Speaker 2>people in history who would have had podcasts it would

0:26:41.359 --> 0:26:44.720
<v Speaker 2>have been absolute shit. His would have been fucking good,

0:26:45.600 --> 0:26:48.719
<v Speaker 2>really good. I am not confident enough of a scholar

0:26:48.760 --> 0:26:52.000
<v Speaker 2>to peace out everything about his early life. What is

0:26:52.040 --> 0:26:55.000
<v Speaker 2>true and what is uh embellished and stuff like that,

0:26:56.240 --> 0:26:59.119
<v Speaker 2>So some of the stories I hear about it, I'm like,

0:26:59.280 --> 0:27:04.520
<v Speaker 2>uh huh okay, But overall people are pretty consistent. He

0:27:04.560 --> 0:27:06.199
<v Speaker 2>went off to boarding school, and then he goes to

0:27:06.240 --> 0:27:08.639
<v Speaker 2>Trinity College in Dublin, and then he gets a scholarship

0:27:08.680 --> 0:27:11.959
<v Speaker 2>to Oxford. And he is a fucking weirdo in school.

0:27:12.040 --> 0:27:14.200
<v Speaker 2>He wears his Sunday best every day of the week.

0:27:14.359 --> 0:27:17.960
<v Speaker 2>He wears like a big silk top hat. He's six

0:27:18.040 --> 0:27:21.520
<v Speaker 2>foot two in a time when people aren't as tall

0:27:21.560 --> 0:27:22.480
<v Speaker 2>as they are now.

0:27:23.800 --> 0:27:27.119
<v Speaker 1>He wears his tall I didn't know. Yeah, that seems

0:27:27.160 --> 0:27:29.679
<v Speaker 1>like really important for some reason to know he was.

0:27:30.800 --> 0:27:34.720
<v Speaker 2>Okay, Yeah, Okay, he is he is not a small man,

0:27:35.400 --> 0:27:37.159
<v Speaker 2>and he wears his hair long and he wears like

0:27:37.240 --> 0:27:42.920
<v Speaker 2>green ties, and he always looks wild to nominative determinant him.

0:27:43.960 --> 0:27:46.479
<v Speaker 2>So at one point, he's like a young teen and

0:27:46.480 --> 0:27:48.760
<v Speaker 2>he's reading a poem to the class and it's this

0:27:48.880 --> 0:27:51.040
<v Speaker 2>like super earnest poem and as you point it out,

0:27:51.119 --> 0:27:53.440
<v Speaker 2>he's like, he doesn't start off a great poet, right,

0:27:53.560 --> 0:27:57.240
<v Speaker 2>that is like not as immediate skill set, and the

0:27:57.280 --> 0:28:02.160
<v Speaker 2>class bully makes fun of him. So Oscar wild walks

0:28:02.240 --> 0:28:05.919
<v Speaker 2>up and slaps the bully in the face. Yes, So

0:28:05.960 --> 0:28:10.000
<v Speaker 2>the bully is like, all right, we got fight. And

0:28:10.000 --> 0:28:13.080
<v Speaker 2>there's very nothing's ever changed about boys in school. So

0:28:13.119 --> 0:28:15.399
<v Speaker 2>they're like, all right, we're gonna meet behind the playground

0:28:15.480 --> 0:28:19.480
<v Speaker 2>after school. We're gonna throw down, you know. And everyone

0:28:19.520 --> 0:28:22.000
<v Speaker 2>shows up and they're like, yeah, we're gonna watch probably

0:28:22.000 --> 0:28:24.119
<v Speaker 2>Oscar Wow, the weird nerdy kid. None of us like

0:28:24.119 --> 0:28:27.639
<v Speaker 2>get beat up. Oscar takes him down with one punch

0:28:27.680 --> 0:28:29.600
<v Speaker 2>and then beats the shit out of him always.

0:28:29.480 --> 0:28:36.359
<v Speaker 1>Wow wow on half of the whole school really, I imagine.

0:28:35.680 --> 0:28:39.560
<v Speaker 2>Like and this is where they're like, oh, you didn't

0:28:39.600 --> 0:28:43.640
<v Speaker 2>notice that that man is very tall? Like, yeah, one

0:28:43.680 --> 0:28:47.760
<v Speaker 2>of my favorite genres of horrible live video that you

0:28:47.760 --> 0:28:50.200
<v Speaker 2>can see on the internet is there'll be like a

0:28:50.240 --> 0:28:52.640
<v Speaker 2>trans woman or a drag queen walking around and someone

0:28:52.640 --> 0:28:56.880
<v Speaker 2>will harass her and she'll start off being like, hey,

0:28:57.520 --> 0:29:01.560
<v Speaker 2>don't mess with me, you know, and then like finally

0:29:01.800 --> 0:29:04.800
<v Speaker 2>just like stands to full height and it's like you

0:29:04.920 --> 0:29:08.640
<v Speaker 2>a fucking problem, And it just makes my heart leap

0:29:08.640 --> 0:29:09.080
<v Speaker 2>with joy.

0:29:09.680 --> 0:29:11.240
<v Speaker 1>Makes me think of like when you put your whole

0:29:11.560 --> 0:29:14.560
<v Speaker 1>like palm on someone's face and just push them down

0:29:14.680 --> 0:29:17.880
<v Speaker 1>until they're on their knees. Yeah, I get them. Yeah

0:29:18.040 --> 0:29:19.920
<v Speaker 1>that I haven't watched a lot of those videos, but

0:29:19.920 --> 0:29:22.120
<v Speaker 1>that will be what I will be doing right after this.

0:29:22.440 --> 0:29:25.320
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, there's a really good British one, all right. I

0:29:25.360 --> 0:29:30.560
<v Speaker 2>think it's rent free in my head. And so he

0:29:30.680 --> 0:29:32.720
<v Speaker 2>goes on to have like almost no interest in sports

0:29:32.720 --> 0:29:35.600
<v Speaker 2>in school, with two notable exceptions. He tries to get

0:29:35.600 --> 0:29:38.560
<v Speaker 2>into rowing, but everyone is mad because he just like

0:29:38.600 --> 0:29:40.880
<v Speaker 2>gets in the rowboat and like kind of leisurely rows

0:29:40.920 --> 0:29:43.960
<v Speaker 2>around like enjoy the lake. So like, why aren't you

0:29:43.960 --> 0:29:44.200
<v Speaker 2>and her?

0:29:44.240 --> 0:29:47.360
<v Speaker 1>And he's like to say, rowing is like boat boys

0:29:47.360 --> 0:29:49.120
<v Speaker 1>are usually like a major red flag.

0:29:50.200 --> 0:29:52.160
<v Speaker 2>Oh interesting, Yeah, well, they don't like him on the

0:29:52.240 --> 0:29:52.800
<v Speaker 2>rowing team.

0:29:53.840 --> 0:29:57.920
<v Speaker 1>Well that that that that's good. Yeah, yeah, we're back, Oscar,

0:29:58.000 --> 0:30:01.920
<v Speaker 1>We're back. He's like nap on a rowboat kind of man.

0:30:02.440 --> 0:30:08.120
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, exactly, there's one sport he's good at boxing.

0:30:08.760 --> 0:30:11.920
<v Speaker 1>No way. Yeah, you're already blown my mind? All right?

0:30:12.000 --> 0:30:13.360
<v Speaker 1>Yeah awesome.

0:30:14.120 --> 0:30:18.400
<v Speaker 2>Somewhere along the way he gets into asceticism. And this

0:30:18.520 --> 0:30:21.360
<v Speaker 2>is a growing but roundly mocked movement of the time.

0:30:21.640 --> 0:30:24.840
<v Speaker 2>This is the art movement equivalent of the Oscar Wild,

0:30:24.960 --> 0:30:27.960
<v Speaker 2>the nerd that everyone is making fun of. Right But

0:30:28.080 --> 0:30:30.200
<v Speaker 2>if this is the case once again, Oscar Wild is

0:30:30.200 --> 0:30:32.480
<v Speaker 2>going to prove stronger than his bullies, because soon enough

0:30:32.760 --> 0:30:35.600
<v Speaker 2>he is the most famous Irishman in England. Even though

0:30:35.640 --> 0:30:39.320
<v Speaker 2>he is the representative of this art movement that everyone

0:30:39.680 --> 0:30:44.240
<v Speaker 2>claims to hate, he is a complete and utter pop

0:30:44.240 --> 0:30:47.440
<v Speaker 2>star of his time. It is like can't apparently kind

0:30:47.480 --> 0:30:49.120
<v Speaker 2>of can't be overstated?

0:30:49.440 --> 0:30:51.240
<v Speaker 1>Wow, Okay, So.

0:30:51.200 --> 0:30:54.840
<v Speaker 2>He gets into asceticism. What is asceticism, you might ask, Well,

0:30:54.840 --> 0:30:57.680
<v Speaker 2>it's a word that Margaret pronounces differently than other people

0:30:57.840 --> 0:31:02.560
<v Speaker 2>and doesn't feel bad about it. Aesthetics asthetics. Well, I

0:31:02.600 --> 0:31:06.440
<v Speaker 2>don't freaking care. It is an art movement that stands

0:31:06.440 --> 0:31:09.800
<v Speaker 2>against everything Victorian England was four. It is art for

0:31:10.000 --> 0:31:14.880
<v Speaker 2>art's sake, not for upholding the moral values of mainstream society. Literally,

0:31:14.920 --> 0:31:18.000
<v Speaker 2>the slogan art for art's Sake comes from this movement,

0:31:18.680 --> 0:31:21.480
<v Speaker 2>and I think maybe the guy who coined the phrase

0:31:21.680 --> 0:31:24.480
<v Speaker 2>was Walter Pater, a gay academic and artist who is

0:31:24.520 --> 0:31:27.720
<v Speaker 2>one of Oscar's mentors at school. And when I talk

0:31:27.760 --> 0:31:29.680
<v Speaker 2>about the fact that he's a gay mentor in school,

0:31:29.720 --> 0:31:32.520
<v Speaker 2>I want to make the following point. It is worth

0:31:32.560 --> 0:31:36.120
<v Speaker 2>noting that Oscar Wild ends up gay, probably not even

0:31:36.160 --> 0:31:39.400
<v Speaker 2>by modern centers, bisexual, and he specifically ends up believing

0:31:39.440 --> 0:31:42.320
<v Speaker 2>in a Greek that gets quotes. It's how he viewed it.

0:31:42.480 --> 0:31:46.200
<v Speaker 2>Greek style homosexuality were older men date younger men, but

0:31:46.320 --> 0:31:48.760
<v Speaker 2>not children at least as was understood at the time

0:31:48.800 --> 0:31:52.600
<v Speaker 2>in England, and he ends up, you know, into this

0:31:52.640 --> 0:31:56.320
<v Speaker 2>style of homosexuality, he dates younger men. The general scholarly

0:31:56.360 --> 0:31:59.120
<v Speaker 2>consensus is that he was probably not fucking these these

0:31:59.120 --> 0:32:02.280
<v Speaker 2>professors at school. He was not fucking men at all

0:32:02.520 --> 0:32:04.600
<v Speaker 2>at that time until a good bit later. And one

0:32:04.640 --> 0:32:07.239
<v Speaker 2>of the reasons that we I tend to believe this

0:32:07.280 --> 0:32:09.920
<v Speaker 2>particular claim is that once he starts fucking men. He

0:32:09.960 --> 0:32:14.080
<v Speaker 2>does not look back, and also like he doesn't have

0:32:14.120 --> 0:32:16.800
<v Speaker 2>a lot to hide. He went to prison and it

0:32:16.840 --> 0:32:18.000
<v Speaker 2>basically killed him.

0:32:18.280 --> 0:32:20.040
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, you know, like he would have owned it, you

0:32:20.120 --> 0:32:21.720
<v Speaker 1>think if if it happened.

0:32:22.800 --> 0:32:26.000
<v Speaker 2>Probably. Yeah, it's complicated. We'll talk about when we get

0:32:26.040 --> 0:32:28.520
<v Speaker 2>to the end of his life. But yeah, while he's

0:32:28.520 --> 0:32:31.920
<v Speaker 2>in school, he also takes an interest in it besides

0:32:31.960 --> 0:32:36.600
<v Speaker 2>a stheticism in Catholicism, and his dad is like, you

0:32:36.680 --> 0:32:38.600
<v Speaker 2>do that shit, You're out of the fucking will no

0:32:38.880 --> 0:32:40.320
<v Speaker 2>fucking papists in my house.

0:32:40.440 --> 0:32:40.840
<v Speaker 1>Mm hmm.

0:32:41.680 --> 0:32:44.400
<v Speaker 2>In eighteen seventy seven, when he's twenty three, he somehow

0:32:44.440 --> 0:32:49.280
<v Speaker 2>gets a private meeting with the fucking Pope, who tells

0:32:49.360 --> 0:32:52.200
<v Speaker 2>him quote, I hope that you may take a journey

0:32:52.200 --> 0:32:54.200
<v Speaker 2>in life in order to arrive at the City of

0:32:54.240 --> 0:32:57.800
<v Speaker 2>God and spoiler alert, that's among the things he does,

0:32:58.600 --> 0:33:01.040
<v Speaker 2>okay without stopping being gay.

0:33:01.640 --> 0:33:02.040
<v Speaker 1>Wow.

0:33:02.960 --> 0:33:05.240
<v Speaker 2>So he's in school and he loves the aesthetic movement,

0:33:05.640 --> 0:33:08.640
<v Speaker 2>and I think it's a movement that is actually still

0:33:08.640 --> 0:33:11.120
<v Speaker 2>a little bit understood. It's critics call it useless in

0:33:11.160 --> 0:33:15.520
<v Speaker 2>shadow all style and no substance, but their goal was beautification,

0:33:15.680 --> 0:33:18.960
<v Speaker 2>to make life richer. One of Wild's professors, did this

0:33:19.000 --> 0:33:21.720
<v Speaker 2>whole art thing that wildlike volunteered for, even a Wild

0:33:21.760 --> 0:33:25.239
<v Speaker 2>hated manual labor and waking up early. Apparently they all

0:33:25.320 --> 0:33:27.320
<v Speaker 2>just like went around and planted flowers next to the

0:33:27.440 --> 0:33:28.840
<v Speaker 2>road to make the road pretty.

0:33:29.440 --> 0:33:30.440
<v Speaker 1>What's wrong with that?

0:33:31.280 --> 0:33:32.600
<v Speaker 2>Fucking nothing's wrong with that.

0:33:32.800 --> 0:33:34.000
<v Speaker 1>In fact, the opposite.

0:33:34.080 --> 0:33:39.880
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, yeah, And Walter Pater said, not the fruit

0:33:39.920 --> 0:33:44.920
<v Speaker 2>of experience, but experience itself is the end. And I

0:33:45.000 --> 0:33:46.680
<v Speaker 2>believe that with every fiber of my being. Yeah, it

0:33:46.680 --> 0:33:48.760
<v Speaker 2>does not stop me from being politically engaged, and it

0:33:48.760 --> 0:33:50.640
<v Speaker 2>did not stop Oscar Wild. So this is part of

0:33:50.640 --> 0:33:54.080
<v Speaker 2>why I think that astheticism in Oscar's astheticism is misunderstood.

0:33:54.520 --> 0:33:56.000
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and it's kind of I mean, it makes me

0:33:56.040 --> 0:33:58.760
<v Speaker 1>think almost of like the bread and Roses slogan, where

0:33:58.760 --> 0:34:03.320
<v Speaker 1>it's like, yeah, that's like you need, you know, political help,

0:34:03.400 --> 0:34:05.600
<v Speaker 1>you need to be out of poverty, but you also

0:34:05.720 --> 0:34:08.760
<v Speaker 1>need to experience beauty and be able to access beauty.

0:34:08.840 --> 0:34:12.280
<v Speaker 1>So it feels like by planting flowers by the roadside,

0:34:12.280 --> 0:34:15.880
<v Speaker 1>you're actually making beauty accessible to people, and that's something

0:34:15.880 --> 0:34:18.480
<v Speaker 1>that we need. We need beautiful things. They don't have

0:34:18.520 --> 0:34:22.839
<v Speaker 1>to be like rich richuly manufactured things, but they can

0:34:22.880 --> 0:34:24.840
<v Speaker 1>be you know, wildflowers.

0:34:25.400 --> 0:34:28.040
<v Speaker 2>Oh his, you're going to love his socialism when we

0:34:28.080 --> 0:34:30.640
<v Speaker 2>start talking about all right, let's do it, because that

0:34:30.719 --> 0:34:34.719
<v Speaker 2>is that is the page he's on, all right. And

0:34:34.760 --> 0:34:38.000
<v Speaker 2>so even while he's still in school, once he's in Oxford,

0:34:38.200 --> 0:34:41.640
<v Speaker 2>he is like famous and he's known as like a

0:34:41.680 --> 0:34:46.200
<v Speaker 2>man about town even though he hasn't done anything. He's

0:34:46.239 --> 0:34:48.839
<v Speaker 2>invited to all the parties. He proves he's this amazingly

0:34:48.880 --> 0:34:51.759
<v Speaker 2>witty conversationalist. At the end of the day, this is

0:34:51.760 --> 0:34:53.840
<v Speaker 2>the main thing he's remembered for as being fucking witty.

0:34:53.920 --> 0:34:56.520
<v Speaker 2>He used to practice conversation and study it like an art.

0:34:57.280 --> 0:34:59.319
<v Speaker 2>He winds up the face of the aesthetic movement even

0:34:59.320 --> 0:35:01.279
<v Speaker 2>though he hasn't done and like people are a little

0:35:01.320 --> 0:35:04.120
<v Speaker 2>bit like, wait what by being the face of the

0:35:04.160 --> 0:35:07.120
<v Speaker 2>aesthetic movement, it's in there's like characters making fun of

0:35:07.160 --> 0:35:11.120
<v Speaker 2>the aesthetic movement that are based on him, like plays

0:35:11.160 --> 0:35:13.200
<v Speaker 2>and shit. So people who actually are making art are

0:35:13.239 --> 0:35:15.960
<v Speaker 2>making art making fun of this artist who hasn't done

0:35:16.000 --> 0:35:16.600
<v Speaker 2>anything yet.

0:35:16.760 --> 0:35:19.719
<v Speaker 1>Okay, okay, yeah, And people are.

0:35:19.640 --> 0:35:23.000
<v Speaker 2>A little bit like, okay, but what has this guy done?

0:35:23.160 --> 0:35:25.400
<v Speaker 2>You know? Yeah, he wears weird clothes. He goes to

0:35:25.440 --> 0:35:29.200
<v Speaker 2>all the parties, and at some point during all of this,

0:35:30.640 --> 0:35:34.000
<v Speaker 2>a bunch of bros pick on him again, so he

0:35:34.080 --> 0:35:38.279
<v Speaker 2>beats up four of them at the same time, and

0:35:38.320 --> 0:35:41.680
<v Speaker 2>then invites the crowd to go raid those guys like

0:35:41.880 --> 0:35:43.880
<v Speaker 2>dorm room to steal all their liquor.

0:35:44.640 --> 0:35:49.560
<v Speaker 1>Wow, folk hero, that's folk hero status for sure.

0:35:49.960 --> 0:35:54.839
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, he is bashing back as a queer before he's

0:35:54.840 --> 0:35:55.880
<v Speaker 2>figured out he's queer.

0:35:56.280 --> 0:36:00.000
<v Speaker 1>Yep. Hey, it's it's within us all yeah.

0:36:00.040 --> 0:36:03.359
<v Speaker 2>And the story feels apocryphal to me, but it is.

0:36:03.640 --> 0:36:06.080
<v Speaker 2>It's in character for him, and it seems pretty documented.

0:36:06.120 --> 0:36:08.520
<v Speaker 2>I actually saw that one referenced more often than I

0:36:08.560 --> 0:36:10.799
<v Speaker 2>saw the one on one fight.

0:36:12.160 --> 0:36:15.839
<v Speaker 1>And even if it is like apocryphal story, I think

0:36:15.880 --> 0:36:19.200
<v Speaker 1>the fact that it even exists means that the spirit

0:36:19.600 --> 0:36:22.480
<v Speaker 1>was behind, you know, to storry, Yeah, totally.

0:36:24.000 --> 0:36:26.560
<v Speaker 2>After graduating, he goes back to Dublin for a minute

0:36:26.560 --> 0:36:28.799
<v Speaker 2>and he starts courting this lady named Florence. But then

0:36:28.840 --> 0:36:31.400
<v Speaker 2>she's like, you know what, what if instead I marry

0:36:31.440 --> 0:36:33.480
<v Speaker 2>this guy, Bram Stoker, the Dracula guy.

0:36:34.280 --> 0:36:34.840
<v Speaker 1>Oh wow?

0:36:35.080 --> 0:36:40.840
<v Speaker 2>So she does and hees yeah wow, and he's like,

0:36:40.840 --> 0:36:42.200
<v Speaker 2>all right, well, I'm gonna go back to London and

0:36:42.239 --> 0:36:45.160
<v Speaker 2>be a trust fund kid with my inheritance because either're like, oh,

0:36:45.160 --> 0:36:47.080
<v Speaker 2>they like don't have any money. He's like living off

0:36:47.120 --> 0:36:49.239
<v Speaker 2>of this no money that they have, so right of

0:36:49.280 --> 0:36:52.040
<v Speaker 2>course it's a it's a scale.

0:36:51.640 --> 0:36:54.920
<v Speaker 1>Thing tales old's time. Yeah, yeah, And.

0:36:54.920 --> 0:36:58.480
<v Speaker 2>So Oscar Wilde like grows up interested in political stuff,

0:36:58.560 --> 0:36:59.960
<v Speaker 2>but he doesn't quite know where he's gonna land for

0:37:00.120 --> 0:37:03.560
<v Speaker 2>a while. He's never reactionary. He just flirts between. We

0:37:03.640 --> 0:37:07.200
<v Speaker 2>starts off more interested in like democratic republicanism, and then

0:37:07.280 --> 0:37:09.560
<v Speaker 2>later is going to end up an anarchist. But his

0:37:09.640 --> 0:37:14.200
<v Speaker 2>mother's fiery politics were always with him. His early art

0:37:14.360 --> 0:37:17.799
<v Speaker 2>is pretty universally panned. He's a bit of a late

0:37:17.840 --> 0:37:21.160
<v Speaker 2>bloomer after college. His first two plays were both about

0:37:21.239 --> 0:37:25.120
<v Speaker 2>killing royalty. The first was called Vira and it's about

0:37:25.160 --> 0:37:27.479
<v Speaker 2>Russian nihilists trying to do an explosion on the Czar,

0:37:29.000 --> 0:37:31.600
<v Speaker 2>which is actually the first episode of this I ever recorded,

0:37:31.880 --> 0:37:34.120
<v Speaker 2>was Nihlist trying to do an explosion on the Czar.

0:37:35.200 --> 0:37:36.880
<v Speaker 1>All comes back around.

0:37:36.760 --> 0:37:40.560
<v Speaker 2>Exactly, and he puts out a self published book of

0:37:40.640 --> 0:37:42.399
<v Speaker 2>poetry just to give you an idea of where he's

0:37:42.400 --> 0:37:46.320
<v Speaker 2>at in his career and people are like, yeah, this

0:37:46.760 --> 0:37:50.040
<v Speaker 2>isn't it. And he actually gets some like plagiarism accusations.

0:37:50.120 --> 0:37:54.480
<v Speaker 2>And there's a satire magazine called Punch that's like a

0:37:54.600 --> 0:37:59.440
<v Speaker 2>very important literary satire magazine or whatever, and they wrote,

0:37:59.840 --> 0:38:05.160
<v Speaker 2>the poet is wild, but his poetry's tame ah, just

0:38:05.160 --> 0:38:06.360
<v Speaker 2>pretty clover. You know.

0:38:06.440 --> 0:38:10.400
<v Speaker 1>He really sounds like an it girl. Oh yeah, absolutely,

0:38:10.480 --> 0:38:12.680
<v Speaker 1>like what I would call him, kind of just iilly,

0:38:12.960 --> 0:38:15.640
<v Speaker 1>Like what exactly does he do? No one knows, and

0:38:15.719 --> 0:38:17.319
<v Speaker 1>yet everyone knows who he is.

0:38:17.680 --> 0:38:20.080
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, no, And I love it because he's like

0:38:20.080 --> 0:38:22.120
<v Speaker 2>an it girl who like does right?

0:38:22.880 --> 0:38:28.040
<v Speaker 1>Yeah yeah, much girl, like take note, yeah yeah.

0:38:28.080 --> 0:38:34.000
<v Speaker 2>Much like you too can do right by consuming things

0:38:34.320 --> 0:38:38.080
<v Speaker 2>that are advertised to you regardless of what they are.

0:38:38.120 --> 0:38:43.400
<v Speaker 2>Just no discretion is necessary because I've handpicked. No, I

0:38:43.400 --> 0:38:45.359
<v Speaker 2>can't even make that joke. I have no idea what

0:38:45.360 --> 0:38:47.200
<v Speaker 2>fucking adds are about to play, but here they.

0:38:47.080 --> 0:38:48.880
<v Speaker 1>Are, be decadent.

0:39:00.080 --> 0:39:02.879
<v Speaker 2>And we're back. And so then it gets his big

0:39:02.920 --> 0:39:08.160
<v Speaker 2>break and it is weird. Theater is big business right

0:39:08.200 --> 0:39:12.560
<v Speaker 2>because they haven't invented Marvel movies yet. Thank you, thank you.

0:39:12.880 --> 0:39:13.799
<v Speaker 1>The scripted that joke.

0:39:15.640 --> 0:39:18.719
<v Speaker 2>I practiced it. I didn't practice reading. I'm not quite

0:39:18.719 --> 0:39:21.440
<v Speaker 2>as hard working as that's sketchy if I'm not as

0:39:21.480 --> 0:39:25.279
<v Speaker 2>hard working as Oscar Wild. So there's a theater duo,

0:39:25.640 --> 0:39:28.640
<v Speaker 2>Gilbert and Sullivan, and they put on a ton of

0:39:28.680 --> 0:39:31.440
<v Speaker 2>plays and they're like the very big deal, the Hollywood

0:39:31.440 --> 0:39:34.120
<v Speaker 2>before Hollywood, and they want to bring They had this

0:39:34.239 --> 0:39:37.920
<v Speaker 2>play that makes fun of the aesthetic movement, and they

0:39:37.960 --> 0:39:40.919
<v Speaker 2>want to put it on in America. But there's a problem.

0:39:41.560 --> 0:39:43.840
<v Speaker 2>No one in America has heard of the aesthetic movement.

0:39:45.000 --> 0:39:48.640
<v Speaker 2>So how do they solve this? They hire Oscar Wilde.

0:39:49.080 --> 0:39:54.040
<v Speaker 2>They sponsor Oscar Wild's speaking tour around America to talk

0:39:54.040 --> 0:39:57.640
<v Speaker 2>about the esthetic movement, so that America is primed to

0:39:57.719 --> 0:40:02.240
<v Speaker 2>watch a play called Patience making fun of the aesthetic movement.

0:40:02.920 --> 0:40:08.359
<v Speaker 1>Wow, Wow, Wow, that's like quite the pr campaign. I

0:40:08.400 --> 0:40:12.919
<v Speaker 1>know it doesn't worked, Yeah, I don't doubt it at all.

0:40:14.239 --> 0:40:18.960
<v Speaker 2>It's like my publisher ak Press sometimes sends books to

0:40:19.360 --> 0:40:21.920
<v Speaker 2>like Alex jonesy type people just to get them to

0:40:21.920 --> 0:40:24.120
<v Speaker 2>talk about on the show, being like how mad they

0:40:24.160 --> 0:40:30.920
<v Speaker 2>are about these books. So in eighteen eighty two, Oscar

0:40:30.960 --> 0:40:34.400
<v Speaker 2>wild heads to America. His tour doesn't just break even.

0:40:34.560 --> 0:40:37.239
<v Speaker 2>It is a huge success. It's supposed to be four

0:40:37.280 --> 0:40:40.160
<v Speaker 2>months long, it lasts a year, and he makes a

0:40:40.200 --> 0:40:43.520
<v Speaker 2>fuck ton of money doing it. He talks all over

0:40:43.560 --> 0:40:45.680
<v Speaker 2>the place. He starts off kind of like not this

0:40:45.719 --> 0:40:50.120
<v Speaker 2>is like where he learns really this craft. This you know,

0:40:50.160 --> 0:40:52.239
<v Speaker 2>he's been practicing, he's doing new parties and stuff, but

0:40:52.280 --> 0:40:54.359
<v Speaker 2>now he's a speaker and he gets really fucking good

0:40:54.360 --> 0:40:57.680
<v Speaker 2>at it, and he talks about how life imitates art

0:40:57.719 --> 0:40:59.520
<v Speaker 2>and not the other way around. And he's just like

0:40:59.600 --> 0:41:02.560
<v Speaker 2>clever as fuck, and people like him, they also mock him.

0:41:03.360 --> 0:41:07.440
<v Speaker 2>And speaking of things that are complicated about history that

0:41:07.480 --> 0:41:09.360
<v Speaker 2>I usually avoid trying to get into on this show.

0:41:09.800 --> 0:41:13.000
<v Speaker 2>Usually when I point out that the Irish people in America,

0:41:13.239 --> 0:41:15.359
<v Speaker 2>people are like, oh, the Irish weren't white, and that's

0:41:15.360 --> 0:41:19.839
<v Speaker 2>like kind of true, and like usually you're like, look, yeah,

0:41:19.960 --> 0:41:22.720
<v Speaker 2>the Irish weren't white in America, but they were treated

0:41:22.800 --> 0:41:24.400
<v Speaker 2>a hell of a lot better than like black and

0:41:24.440 --> 0:41:28.920
<v Speaker 2>indigenous people were the way that Oscar Wild was treated

0:41:29.760 --> 0:41:33.560
<v Speaker 2>when people made fun of him, they put on blackface

0:41:33.600 --> 0:41:34.000
<v Speaker 2>to do it.

0:41:34.920 --> 0:41:35.400
<v Speaker 1>Wow.

0:41:35.480 --> 0:41:40.239
<v Speaker 2>And the caricatures of Oscar Wild were monkeys. Wow. He

0:41:40.400 --> 0:41:43.880
<v Speaker 2>was not white in America. Wow.

0:41:44.280 --> 0:41:46.719
<v Speaker 1>That is so strange. I know.

0:41:46.960 --> 0:41:49.319
<v Speaker 2>It caught me by surprise because everything else I've ever

0:41:49.360 --> 0:41:55.840
<v Speaker 2>read has put like ethnic European whites into a category below,

0:41:56.520 --> 0:42:01.120
<v Speaker 2>but very distinctly below white below, like why Protestants and

0:42:01.160 --> 0:42:04.279
<v Speaker 2>stuff right way above people who are like, you know,

0:42:05.320 --> 0:42:06.080
<v Speaker 2>darker skinned.

0:42:06.280 --> 0:42:11.279
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it's like the first waves of immigrant hatred like

0:42:11.400 --> 0:42:13.560
<v Speaker 1>that kind of right, would you say?

0:42:13.600 --> 0:42:17.840
<v Speaker 2>So? Yeah, well it's a there's been like nativist as

0:42:18.040 --> 0:42:20.200
<v Speaker 2>you know, the people who hate immigrants. There's some of

0:42:20.200 --> 0:42:21.880
<v Speaker 2>that going back, at least as far as I've read

0:42:21.920 --> 0:42:24.160
<v Speaker 2>about like the eighteen forties and eighteen fifties and stuff,

0:42:24.160 --> 0:42:27.640
<v Speaker 2>and you get like the Whig Party and chure, sure, yeah,

0:42:27.680 --> 0:42:30.360
<v Speaker 2>but this is like when you yeah, you really have

0:42:30.480 --> 0:42:32.440
<v Speaker 2>like this is I think around the time you have

0:42:32.480 --> 0:42:36.800
<v Speaker 2>a lot more of Italians and Irish Catholics and stuff

0:42:36.800 --> 0:42:42.200
<v Speaker 2>coming into the country. And so he's going around and

0:42:42.239 --> 0:42:44.760
<v Speaker 2>he's talking about like art and beauty and interior design,

0:42:45.040 --> 0:42:46.960
<v Speaker 2>but he's also giving talks at the like he did

0:42:47.000 --> 0:42:49.319
<v Speaker 2>a talk at the bottom of a mine to talk

0:42:49.360 --> 0:42:54.200
<v Speaker 2>to the miners, and he brought Irish revolutionists around with

0:42:54.280 --> 0:42:57.400
<v Speaker 2>him to some of his talks, and he openly supported

0:42:57.520 --> 0:43:02.200
<v Speaker 2>armed insurrection and the assassination of English colonial forces in Ireland.

0:43:01.719 --> 0:43:05.040
<v Speaker 1>And he was talking about this on the tour. Yeah.

0:43:05.239 --> 0:43:07.520
<v Speaker 2>Wow, I'll get into one of the specific quotes about it,

0:43:07.520 --> 0:43:09.279
<v Speaker 2>because it's like an incident that I'll bring up later

0:43:10.040 --> 0:43:16.120
<v Speaker 2>that he's defending. And like most of the time apparently

0:43:16.160 --> 0:43:17.520
<v Speaker 2>when he like went and talked to the miners at

0:43:17.520 --> 0:43:19.520
<v Speaker 2>the bottom of the mind, he like tucked his hair

0:43:19.640 --> 0:43:23.320
<v Speaker 2>up and kind of didn't wear his trill clothes and stuff,

0:43:23.360 --> 0:43:28.480
<v Speaker 2>you know. But and so he comes back from this

0:43:28.600 --> 0:43:32.000
<v Speaker 2>year long tour and now he's bona fide famous, and

0:43:32.040 --> 0:43:34.040
<v Speaker 2>he's not just the weird guy who dresses weird and

0:43:34.080 --> 0:43:37.400
<v Speaker 2>his talk's clever. He's like, oh, he was a huge

0:43:37.400 --> 0:43:39.640
<v Speaker 2>deal in America, maybe he's a huge deal here too.

0:43:41.560 --> 0:43:44.040
<v Speaker 2>He comes to love the history of the Paris Commune,

0:43:44.360 --> 0:43:46.880
<v Speaker 2>and when he walks around Paris past some spots that

0:43:46.960 --> 0:43:51.480
<v Speaker 2>the commune yards had burned, he said, quote, there is

0:43:51.520 --> 0:43:54.440
<v Speaker 2>not there one little black and stone which is not

0:43:54.600 --> 0:43:58.640
<v Speaker 2>to me a chapter in the Bible of democracy. Wow.

0:43:59.280 --> 0:44:02.080
<v Speaker 2>And this kind of gets it. Like he writes constantly

0:44:02.120 --> 0:44:07.800
<v Speaker 2>about rebels being Christ's so he's clearly doing a Christian

0:44:08.200 --> 0:44:11.279
<v Speaker 2>version of these things. He's also there's like some word

0:44:11.320 --> 0:44:13.520
<v Speaker 2>antinomian that I had to look up for the purpose

0:44:13.560 --> 0:44:17.680
<v Speaker 2>of Whenever people talk about him, it's basically like, hey,

0:44:18.200 --> 0:44:20.920
<v Speaker 2>you don't have to like specifically do all the moral stuff.

0:44:20.920 --> 0:44:22.960
<v Speaker 2>The church says, it's fine, you can still be religious,

0:44:23.840 --> 0:44:25.200
<v Speaker 2>and that's like his thing.

0:44:26.080 --> 0:44:28.040
<v Speaker 1>And do you think, and maybe you'll get into this,

0:44:28.120 --> 0:44:30.360
<v Speaker 1>but do you think that he was an actual believer

0:44:30.840 --> 0:44:34.000
<v Speaker 1>in like the miracles of the Bible or more like,

0:44:34.080 --> 0:44:39.040
<v Speaker 1>here's a great hero's journey structure to talk about living people.

0:44:40.120 --> 0:44:42.399
<v Speaker 2>I don't know whether I would know specifically about his

0:44:42.480 --> 0:44:44.719
<v Speaker 2>belief in like sort of a literal interpretation of a

0:44:44.760 --> 0:44:48.800
<v Speaker 2>lot of the Bible stuff. But he's very actively especially

0:44:48.800 --> 0:44:50.400
<v Speaker 2>near the end of his life. But he's very actively

0:44:50.400 --> 0:44:55.839
<v Speaker 2>theologically engaged. He's very actively interested in what religion has

0:44:55.840 --> 0:44:57.080
<v Speaker 2>to say about the meaning of life.

0:44:57.360 --> 0:44:58.360
<v Speaker 1>Okay, Okay.

0:45:00.600 --> 0:45:04.600
<v Speaker 2>In eighteen eighty four, he marries a woman named Constance Lloyd,

0:45:05.080 --> 0:45:07.840
<v Speaker 2>and later he is gay as fuck, but he genuinely

0:45:07.880 --> 0:45:13.120
<v Speaker 2>cares for Constance at first. Okay, here's like the one. Okay, Well,

0:45:13.320 --> 0:45:16.200
<v Speaker 2>so they have two kids together, Cyril and Vivian, and

0:45:16.280 --> 0:45:18.719
<v Speaker 2>Vivian is spelled coolest shit is v y v y

0:45:18.920 --> 0:45:22.640
<v Speaker 2>a m cool really, and he is a devoted and

0:45:22.680 --> 0:45:25.680
<v Speaker 2>loving father by all accounts, including the accounts of his kids,

0:45:25.680 --> 0:45:28.160
<v Speaker 2>which are the accounts that I care the most about. Yes,

0:45:28.600 --> 0:45:31.440
<v Speaker 2>he was politically devoted to feminism, but he did this

0:45:31.440 --> 0:45:34.680
<v Speaker 2>whole thing where like after his wife had some kids,

0:45:34.719 --> 0:45:37.719
<v Speaker 2>he's like, oh, she's just not beautiful anymore. Mmmm hm,

0:45:38.320 --> 0:45:39.880
<v Speaker 2>and like fuck him for that. That is like my

0:45:39.920 --> 0:45:43.319
<v Speaker 2>biggest Yeah, there's one other mark that we'll get to later.

0:45:43.400 --> 0:45:46.239
<v Speaker 2>But I also suspect the fact that he's gay.

0:45:46.360 --> 0:45:48.560
<v Speaker 1>We at cool people to do cool stuff. Have a

0:45:48.719 --> 0:45:53.120
<v Speaker 1>three strikes in your out role and those are only two. Yeah, exactly,

0:45:53.239 --> 0:45:55.320
<v Speaker 1>so exactly right, We're good.

0:45:55.640 --> 0:45:57.920
<v Speaker 2>That's no. Actually, there's a lot of people who like

0:45:58.360 --> 0:46:01.200
<v Speaker 2>it's one strike and it's bad enough. That's fair.

0:46:01.400 --> 0:46:07.160
<v Speaker 1>That's completely fair. There there, you've burned down the field rule. Yeah,

0:46:08.719 --> 0:46:10.799
<v Speaker 1>total different degrees of strikes. Yeh.

0:46:11.880 --> 0:46:14.120
<v Speaker 2>Like his dad might be out for the one strike.

0:46:14.239 --> 0:46:18.279
<v Speaker 1>Oh his dad is out. His dad is perpetently suspended.

0:46:18.400 --> 0:46:24.520
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, like one strike was the weird orientalism, but

0:46:24.600 --> 0:46:26.200
<v Speaker 2>then there was the one anyway, so.

0:46:26.600 --> 0:46:27.839
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, we got it. Yeah.

0:46:28.600 --> 0:46:33.319
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, So Oscar Wilde he's doing all this stuff and

0:46:34.040 --> 0:46:38.480
<v Speaker 2>then he suddenly becomes gay as hell, anarchist, hell as hell,

0:46:38.640 --> 0:46:44.480
<v Speaker 2>prolific and successful, and just starts fucking taking off. It

0:46:44.600 --> 0:46:47.799
<v Speaker 2>is easy to be a b gay do crimes gay

0:46:47.840 --> 0:46:51.399
<v Speaker 2>person in Victorian England, because be gay counts as one

0:46:51.400 --> 0:46:55.560
<v Speaker 2>of those crimes. In eighteen eighty six, he is twenty

0:46:55.640 --> 0:46:58.120
<v Speaker 2>nine years old and he meets a seventeen year old

0:46:58.920 --> 0:47:01.160
<v Speaker 2>boy or manned and on how you want to think

0:47:01.160 --> 0:47:04.920
<v Speaker 2>about it, named Robert Ross. This is the other Like

0:47:05.560 --> 0:47:08.320
<v Speaker 2>some of the people he is sleeping with are perceived

0:47:08.360 --> 0:47:10.600
<v Speaker 2>as adults by the society, but would not be perceived

0:47:10.600 --> 0:47:15.640
<v Speaker 2>as adults by us. Robert Ross is already out as gay.

0:47:15.800 --> 0:47:18.799
<v Speaker 2>Every account I've read says that Robert Ross had read

0:47:18.840 --> 0:47:21.480
<v Speaker 2>a ton of Wild's poetry and was like, Oh, I'm

0:47:21.480 --> 0:47:25.439
<v Speaker 2>gonna go fuck that guy, and seduced Oscar Wild, which

0:47:25.560 --> 0:47:28.319
<v Speaker 2>is a convenient way to frame it, but I also

0:47:28.320 --> 0:47:32.520
<v Speaker 2>think it's true. So Robert and Oscar meet and they

0:47:32.520 --> 0:47:37.239
<v Speaker 2>start fucking, and Oscar Wild is like, oh shit, being

0:47:37.280 --> 0:47:41.640
<v Speaker 2>gay fucking rules. This is the best thing ever, and

0:47:41.680 --> 0:47:45.920
<v Speaker 2>he just his career just takes off. He starts producing

0:47:46.040 --> 0:47:49.360
<v Speaker 2>all of the work he's famous for. Him and Robbie

0:47:49.400 --> 0:47:53.600
<v Speaker 2>don't last super long, like romantically or sexually. They are

0:47:54.840 --> 0:47:58.960
<v Speaker 2>historically close friends. They are best friends and life partners

0:47:59.000 --> 0:48:02.400
<v Speaker 2>in so many ways. Like there's this joke I use

0:48:02.440 --> 0:48:05.240
<v Speaker 2>on this show where two women will like live together

0:48:05.280 --> 0:48:07.640
<v Speaker 2>and be obviously ganget buried next to each other, and

0:48:07.640 --> 0:48:10.520
<v Speaker 2>then society's like, hmm, we have no idea whether they

0:48:10.560 --> 0:48:11.400
<v Speaker 2>were into each.

0:48:11.239 --> 0:48:12.960
<v Speaker 1>Other an intimate friendship.

0:48:13.120 --> 0:48:18.200
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, but that's Oscar and Robbie. They did fuck,

0:48:18.840 --> 0:48:23.440
<v Speaker 2>but then they probably stopped fucking and they're fucking buried

0:48:23.440 --> 0:48:27.799
<v Speaker 2>next to each other. Like gosh, wow, this kid or man,

0:48:28.080 --> 0:48:30.400
<v Speaker 2>I want to look at it. Who you know Oscar

0:48:30.480 --> 0:48:33.040
<v Speaker 2>is sleeping with ends up the executor of Oscar Wilde's

0:48:33.080 --> 0:48:38.160
<v Speaker 2>will and and is with him as he dies. Spoiler alert,

0:48:38.239 --> 0:48:41.400
<v Speaker 2>Oscar wild dies. He's not a vampire? Where is he?

0:48:41.800 --> 0:48:44.279
<v Speaker 1>So let me ask a question real quick. Yes, so

0:48:46.040 --> 0:48:49.799
<v Speaker 1>at this time, this is the eighteen eighties where we're

0:48:49.800 --> 0:48:55.160
<v Speaker 1>at ish Yeah, okay, So are they categorizing themselves as

0:48:55.239 --> 0:48:58.640
<v Speaker 1>the identity of homosexual or are they sort of like

0:48:58.760 --> 0:49:01.640
<v Speaker 1>we do homosexual things right, Because this is kind of

0:49:01.800 --> 0:49:05.520
<v Speaker 1>time when that, I like, the identity category is forming, right.

0:49:05.719 --> 0:49:07.520
<v Speaker 2>I know that is actually something that's like yeah, so

0:49:07.600 --> 0:49:12.040
<v Speaker 2>homosexuality and heterosexuality come around this decade. I know a

0:49:12.040 --> 0:49:14.799
<v Speaker 2>little bit about how society is viewing it. I know

0:49:14.880 --> 0:49:17.240
<v Speaker 2>that they end up calling it the love that cannot

0:49:17.280 --> 0:49:21.440
<v Speaker 2>be named overall. Oscar Wild like uses like Greek love

0:49:21.680 --> 0:49:23.560
<v Speaker 2>as the way that he refers to it. He's like

0:49:23.600 --> 0:49:26.879
<v Speaker 2>obsessed with calling everything Greek if it means I want

0:49:26.880 --> 0:49:30.359
<v Speaker 2>to like touch that man's penis, right, you know, But.

0:49:30.280 --> 0:49:34.000
<v Speaker 1>That sounds like he wasn't saying I am a homosexual.

0:49:34.160 --> 0:49:36.799
<v Speaker 1>It's like this love is do you know what I'm

0:49:36.880 --> 0:49:37.440
<v Speaker 1>kind of saying, Like.

0:49:37.480 --> 0:49:39.960
<v Speaker 2>No, I know, and I'm sad that I don't know

0:49:40.000 --> 0:49:40.440
<v Speaker 2>the answer.

0:49:40.880 --> 0:49:41.640
<v Speaker 1>Well, that's all right.

0:49:41.920 --> 0:49:44.400
<v Speaker 2>My instinct is that a little bit of is like

0:49:44.480 --> 0:49:46.600
<v Speaker 2>I do this Greek love thing rather than like I

0:49:46.640 --> 0:49:47.279
<v Speaker 2>am a gay man.

0:49:47.600 --> 0:49:50.279
<v Speaker 1>I think that would track with sort of the culture too.

0:49:50.360 --> 0:49:51.680
<v Speaker 1>It was like almost there.

0:49:52.440 --> 0:49:56.520
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that's that's my impression. Someone sure, someone knows.

0:49:56.800 --> 0:49:57.120
<v Speaker 1>Yes.

0:49:57.920 --> 0:49:59.480
<v Speaker 2>One thing that I kind of find interesting is that

0:49:59.480 --> 0:50:01.799
<v Speaker 2>I feel like it's some ways they like queered friendship

0:50:02.040 --> 0:50:05.680
<v Speaker 2>by having this friendship that was theoretically not romantic or sexual,

0:50:05.719 --> 0:50:07.640
<v Speaker 2>but it was absolutely a partnership, but was also too

0:50:07.719 --> 0:50:09.759
<v Speaker 2>gay man. You know, it's like it's really interesting to me.

0:50:10.000 --> 0:50:15.360
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it's fair like Emma Goldman, but like before totally.

0:50:15.560 --> 0:50:17.439
<v Speaker 2>Although Ima Goldman is a really good quote about Oscar

0:50:17.480 --> 0:50:18.120
<v Speaker 2>Wild that we'll get to.

0:50:18.280 --> 0:50:20.080
<v Speaker 1>Okay, all right, all right, I'll over to that.

0:50:20.840 --> 0:50:23.400
<v Speaker 2>Overall, I would say that twenty nine year olds probably

0:50:23.440 --> 0:50:29.239
<v Speaker 2>shouldn't fuck seventeen year olds, right, especially not their fans. Well,

0:50:29.400 --> 0:50:31.040
<v Speaker 2>I don't even really have to do it, especially there.

0:50:31.120 --> 0:50:33.000
<v Speaker 2>If you're twenty nine, don't fuck a seventeen year old.

0:50:33.719 --> 0:50:36.800
<v Speaker 2>The reason that I don't want to like commat Oscar

0:50:36.880 --> 0:50:39.759
<v Speaker 2>Wild is that no one would have baded an eye

0:50:39.800 --> 0:50:43.000
<v Speaker 2>if they had been straight. The age of consent in

0:50:43.040 --> 0:50:45.879
<v Speaker 2>England at this time, just the year prior, had been

0:50:46.000 --> 0:50:50.040
<v Speaker 2>raised to sixteen from thirteen, and it had only been

0:50:50.120 --> 0:50:55.280
<v Speaker 2>raised to thirteen a decade before that. It's not good,

0:50:56.200 --> 0:50:59.680
<v Speaker 2>but it's not the way that it will be twisted

0:50:59.680 --> 0:51:02.040
<v Speaker 2>and you to describe like the corruption of youth and

0:51:02.080 --> 0:51:04.719
<v Speaker 2>groomer and all of these things, right right, It is

0:51:04.719 --> 0:51:08.359
<v Speaker 2>a very The age gap in their relationship is very

0:51:08.640 --> 0:51:12.440
<v Speaker 2>very normal. Only their sexuality is not normal.

0:51:13.120 --> 0:51:15.279
<v Speaker 1>Well, and even I mean even more so. It's like

0:51:15.440 --> 0:51:19.280
<v Speaker 1>the category of what a teenager is doesn't even exist

0:51:19.280 --> 0:51:21.760
<v Speaker 1>at this point because it's like you're either a child

0:51:22.160 --> 0:51:24.640
<v Speaker 1>or an adult, because you're going to mean, I think

0:51:24.760 --> 0:51:29.040
<v Speaker 1>rich people are different because they had the ability to

0:51:29.320 --> 0:51:33.120
<v Speaker 1>kind of luxuriate in that period and use that as

0:51:33.160 --> 0:51:35.479
<v Speaker 1>a time of growth and change. But it really wasn't

0:51:35.560 --> 0:51:39.120
<v Speaker 1>until like the nineteen twenties, after all of the labor

0:51:39.200 --> 0:51:43.920
<v Speaker 1>laws had, you know, taken children from like horrible labor

0:51:43.920 --> 0:51:46.680
<v Speaker 1>conditions and given them an opportunity to like live in

0:51:46.760 --> 0:51:49.439
<v Speaker 1>this in between period. But like a seventeen year old

0:51:49.480 --> 0:51:53.399
<v Speaker 1>then had the same type of agency than an adulthood. Again,

0:51:53.520 --> 0:51:56.719
<v Speaker 1>not to say it's good, but it is, like it's

0:51:56.840 --> 0:52:00.279
<v Speaker 1>just a completely and utterly different way of thinking of

0:52:00.760 --> 0:52:03.880
<v Speaker 1>age and what a person when a person has grown

0:52:03.920 --> 0:52:04.480
<v Speaker 1>and when they're not.

0:52:04.719 --> 0:52:07.440
<v Speaker 2>So yeahh no, that's so interesting to me. It makes

0:52:07.480 --> 0:52:12.360
<v Speaker 2>so much sense. The I love understanding how different people

0:52:12.400 --> 0:52:15.480
<v Speaker 2>in history thought of things so completely and fundamentally differently,

0:52:15.560 --> 0:52:17.960
<v Speaker 2>and how it impacts the way that we do and

0:52:18.000 --> 0:52:20.799
<v Speaker 2>don't see ourselves in their like actions and things like that.

0:52:20.880 --> 0:52:22.040
<v Speaker 2>So I love that part of it.

0:52:22.080 --> 0:52:23.200
<v Speaker 1>Thank you, Yeah, me too.

0:52:23.880 --> 0:52:28.000
<v Speaker 2>So in eighteen eighty seven, Oscar Wilde was almost alone

0:52:28.040 --> 0:52:31.920
<v Speaker 2>among the London literary crowd when he signed George Bernard

0:52:31.960 --> 0:52:35.160
<v Speaker 2>Shaw's a Socialist play Right, signed a petition for the

0:52:35.200 --> 0:52:38.200
<v Speaker 2>reprieve of the Chicago Anarchists, the Haymarket Anarchists the very

0:52:38.200 --> 0:52:42.160
<v Speaker 2>first episode of this podcast, and who are soon to

0:52:42.200 --> 0:52:46.200
<v Speaker 2>become the Haymarket Martyrs. Soon he goes to further side

0:52:46.200 --> 0:52:49.880
<v Speaker 2>with the anarchist directly, but the same year, eighteen eighty seven,

0:52:50.040 --> 0:52:54.960
<v Speaker 2>he becomes editor of Lady World magazine, which he renamed

0:52:55.120 --> 0:52:59.320
<v Speaker 2>Women's World. Okay, and then he set about doing you know,

0:52:59.600 --> 0:53:02.719
<v Speaker 2>teen Vogue, like got woke as fuck about like a

0:53:02.760 --> 0:53:06.919
<v Speaker 2>decade ago. Yes, Oscar Wilde did that to Women's World.

0:53:07.640 --> 0:53:08.640
<v Speaker 1>Nice. Wow.

0:53:08.920 --> 0:53:12.120
<v Speaker 2>He took a fashion in arts magazine and then added

0:53:12.160 --> 0:53:15.160
<v Speaker 2>feminism and culture and politics while still talking about fashion

0:53:15.160 --> 0:53:15.600
<v Speaker 2>and arts.

0:53:16.280 --> 0:53:16.760
<v Speaker 1>Brilliant.

0:53:17.200 --> 0:53:19.880
<v Speaker 2>And this is why when you're like, oh, yeah, he

0:53:20.040 --> 0:53:23.240
<v Speaker 2>just just art for art's sake, and you're like yeah,

0:53:23.280 --> 0:53:27.759
<v Speaker 2>and also completely fundamentally changed society for art's sake.

0:53:28.239 --> 0:53:32.520
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, you know, yeah, wow. I love that.

0:53:33.520 --> 0:53:35.960
<v Speaker 2>He's still a mamma's boy. He publishes his mother, I mean,

0:53:36.000 --> 0:53:38.600
<v Speaker 2>his mother's an amazing writer. He publishes his mother and

0:53:38.640 --> 0:53:41.359
<v Speaker 2>his wife in the magazine, which he ran for about

0:53:41.360 --> 0:53:44.799
<v Speaker 2>two years, and he is publishing a ton during this

0:53:44.880 --> 0:53:47.960
<v Speaker 2>time period, he's publishing kids' stories and plays and essays,

0:53:48.880 --> 0:53:52.680
<v Speaker 2>and by eighteen ninety he is openly against the idea

0:53:52.719 --> 0:53:56.680
<v Speaker 2>of government. His first kind of writing about this is

0:53:57.600 --> 0:54:01.000
<v Speaker 2>inspired by Taoism rather than being inspired fired specifically by

0:54:01.000 --> 0:54:05.520
<v Speaker 2>the ideological Western anarchist tradition. He is writing a review

0:54:05.560 --> 0:54:07.520
<v Speaker 2>of a book of Daoist philosophy from like two thousand

0:54:07.560 --> 0:54:10.000
<v Speaker 2>years ago, but it was like a new edition or

0:54:10.160 --> 0:54:12.839
<v Speaker 2>the first in English or something. It's eighteen ninety when

0:54:12.840 --> 0:54:15.680
<v Speaker 2>he writes, all modes of government are wrong. They are

0:54:15.760 --> 0:54:19.279
<v Speaker 2>unscientific because they seek to alter the natural environment of man.

0:54:19.640 --> 0:54:22.759
<v Speaker 2>They are immoral because by interfering with the individual, they

0:54:22.800 --> 0:54:26.759
<v Speaker 2>produce the most aggressive forms of egotism. And he said

0:54:26.800 --> 0:54:29.439
<v Speaker 2>that governments, by trying to coerce people into being good,

0:54:29.680 --> 0:54:31.600
<v Speaker 2>destroy the natural goodness of man.

0:54:33.239 --> 0:54:37.279
<v Speaker 1>Wow in eighteen degree, Yeah was that? I said? I

0:54:37.320 --> 0:54:38.120
<v Speaker 1>don't disagree?

0:54:38.239 --> 0:54:41.759
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, no, exactly. Like it's like the way he the

0:54:41.840 --> 0:54:44.880
<v Speaker 2>nuance with which he talked about this stuff is like

0:54:45.000 --> 0:54:47.160
<v Speaker 2>revelatory now, you know.

0:54:47.280 --> 0:54:49.200
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, oh yeah.

0:54:49.440 --> 0:54:51.440
<v Speaker 2>In eighteen ninety one he published one of his most

0:54:51.440 --> 0:54:53.759
<v Speaker 2>famous essays. When it was famous at the time too right.

0:54:54.160 --> 0:54:57.279
<v Speaker 2>It's called the Soul of Man under Socialism, and it

0:54:57.360 --> 0:55:00.160
<v Speaker 2>is fucking interesting as hell. It is translated all over

0:55:00.200 --> 0:55:03.280
<v Speaker 2>the place, and in it he basically says the point

0:55:03.320 --> 0:55:06.040
<v Speaker 2>isn't to make art in the service of socialism. The

0:55:06.080 --> 0:55:08.640
<v Speaker 2>point is to make socialism in the service of art.

0:55:09.920 --> 0:55:14.040
<v Speaker 2>He says that quote, the community will supply the useful things,

0:55:14.160 --> 0:55:17.160
<v Speaker 2>and the beautiful things will be made by the individual.

0:55:17.600 --> 0:55:19.719
<v Speaker 2>It is the only possible way by which we can

0:55:19.760 --> 0:55:25.120
<v Speaker 2>get either the one or the other. And the socialists

0:55:25.120 --> 0:55:27.600
<v Speaker 2>at the time are trying to be all like pithy

0:55:27.719 --> 0:55:31.000
<v Speaker 2>and dismissive of this essay, and it's a very popular

0:55:31.080 --> 0:55:33.360
<v Speaker 2>essay and they're a little bit upset by this, and

0:55:33.400 --> 0:55:35.080
<v Speaker 2>they're like, woll this essay says a lot, but it

0:55:35.120 --> 0:55:39.040
<v Speaker 2>says nothing about socialism because it wasn't their style of socialism.

0:55:39.440 --> 0:55:43.840
<v Speaker 2>It didn't use the word anarchism. It was absolutely anarchism

0:55:43.920 --> 0:55:47.799
<v Speaker 2>and was respected and understood as much by socialists who

0:55:47.800 --> 0:55:51.400
<v Speaker 2>are familiar with anarchism at the time. And it's funny

0:55:51.440 --> 0:55:53.799
<v Speaker 2>because like one hundred years later, commentators are still like

0:55:53.840 --> 0:55:57.719
<v Speaker 2>individualism and socialism. This is a man of paradox, you know,

0:56:00.000 --> 0:56:05.080
<v Speaker 2>all right, guys, come on, I believe in you. And

0:56:05.120 --> 0:56:10.640
<v Speaker 2>he describes an aristocratic socialism. I'm using that phrasing. Okay,

0:56:11.200 --> 0:56:14.160
<v Speaker 2>we all get to have nice things is basically the argument.

0:56:14.239 --> 0:56:17.080
<v Speaker 2>He talks about, how when burglars steal from the rich,

0:56:17.120 --> 0:56:19.520
<v Speaker 2>it's fine because they have enough stuff. It's fine whatever,

0:56:20.000 --> 0:56:22.200
<v Speaker 2>and no, how you should have nice stuff, but if

0:56:22.239 --> 0:56:24.200
<v Speaker 2>you're not actually using your nice stuff, then you should

0:56:24.200 --> 0:56:27.759
<v Speaker 2>give it away to someone who will. Yeah, and he says,

0:56:27.840 --> 0:56:32.040
<v Speaker 2>quote man will kill himself by overwork in order to

0:56:32.040 --> 0:56:36.360
<v Speaker 2>secure property, and really, considering the enormous advantages that property brings,

0:56:36.440 --> 0:56:40.040
<v Speaker 2>one is hardly surprised. One's regret is that society should

0:56:40.040 --> 0:56:42.439
<v Speaker 2>be constructed on such a basis that man has been

0:56:42.480 --> 0:56:45.520
<v Speaker 2>forced into a groove in which he cannot freely develop

0:56:45.600 --> 0:56:49.320
<v Speaker 2>what is wonderful, fascinating and delightful in him, in which

0:56:49.400 --> 0:56:52.840
<v Speaker 2>in fact, he misses the true pleasure and joy of living.

0:56:53.800 --> 0:56:55.680
<v Speaker 1>He's like a gay tyler dirdam.

0:56:56.200 --> 0:57:02.279
<v Speaker 2>He is, Oh God, does that mean like right wing

0:57:02.360 --> 0:57:04.239
<v Speaker 2>edge lords are going to take this gay leftist and

0:57:04.320 --> 0:57:09.960
<v Speaker 2>just like turn them into some horrible Probably probably, I

0:57:09.960 --> 0:57:12.919
<v Speaker 2>hope Elon must don't listen to this shit. Elon must

0:57:12.920 --> 0:57:18.160
<v Speaker 2>give away everything you own. Okay, you can keep one

0:57:19.480 --> 0:57:25.320
<v Speaker 2>cyber truck and uh, that's it does even one cyber

0:57:25.320 --> 0:57:28.120
<v Speaker 2>truck man. If you can't do it, you're doing it wrong.

0:57:30.280 --> 0:57:33.400
<v Speaker 2>So the most famous line, the most quoted line in

0:57:33.400 --> 0:57:35.200
<v Speaker 2>this at least in the circles that I run in,

0:57:35.560 --> 0:57:38.000
<v Speaker 2>is the form of government that is most suitable to

0:57:38.040 --> 0:57:41.200
<v Speaker 2>the artist is no government at all. But he actually

0:57:41.320 --> 0:57:43.320
<v Speaker 2>refers to how there should be a state. He uses

0:57:43.360 --> 0:57:45.600
<v Speaker 2>the word state to describe the society that is like

0:57:45.640 --> 0:57:47.600
<v Speaker 2>providing the stuff. And then but the thing it shouldn't

0:57:47.600 --> 0:57:51.560
<v Speaker 2>do is govern it. And everyone just uses words. However,

0:57:51.760 --> 0:57:56.480
<v Speaker 2>right right, and around this time, he probably should have

0:57:56.480 --> 0:58:00.760
<v Speaker 2>gone to France because homosexuality was legal in France and

0:58:00.840 --> 0:58:04.480
<v Speaker 2>the art and literary scene in France was predominantly anarchist

0:58:04.480 --> 0:58:07.200
<v Speaker 2>at the time. It's like how punk in the nineteen

0:58:07.200 --> 0:58:11.520
<v Speaker 2>eighties and nineteen nineties was like anarchists, right, as like

0:58:11.600 --> 0:58:15.520
<v Speaker 2>the dominant strain that was the eighteen eighties and eighteen

0:58:15.600 --> 0:58:22.440
<v Speaker 2>nineties literary and arts scene in Paris. Instead, he stuck

0:58:22.480 --> 0:58:24.760
<v Speaker 2>around London, where neither of the things that he liked

0:58:24.760 --> 0:58:27.800
<v Speaker 2>doing were particularly popular, and eventually it's going to kill him.

0:58:29.280 --> 0:58:32.320
<v Speaker 2>He starts making statements about his political position. I bring

0:58:32.360 --> 0:58:36.080
<v Speaker 2>all this up because people like want I'm claiming this

0:58:36.160 --> 0:58:37.880
<v Speaker 2>man for anarchism, and I want to show my work.

0:58:38.200 --> 0:58:39.160
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, show your work.

0:58:39.680 --> 0:58:42.040
<v Speaker 2>In eighteen ninety three, he wrote, in the past, I

0:58:42.120 --> 0:58:43.880
<v Speaker 2>was a poet and a tyrant. Now I am an

0:58:43.920 --> 0:58:47.040
<v Speaker 2>artist and an anarchist. In eighteen ninety four, he told

0:58:47.040 --> 0:58:49.760
<v Speaker 2>a journalist from the theater, we are all of us

0:58:49.800 --> 0:58:52.480
<v Speaker 2>more or less socialists. Nowadays our system of government is

0:58:52.520 --> 0:58:54.800
<v Speaker 2>largely socialistic. What is the House of Comments but a

0:58:54.840 --> 0:58:57.920
<v Speaker 2>socialistic assembly. I am rather more than a socialist. I

0:58:57.920 --> 0:59:01.640
<v Speaker 2>am something of an anarchist. I believe and like people

0:59:01.640 --> 0:59:04.480
<v Speaker 2>are then and now like. But what does he believe in?

0:59:04.720 --> 0:59:11.800
<v Speaker 2>It's impossible to know because he doesn't put this stuff

0:59:12.600 --> 0:59:17.560
<v Speaker 2>directly and obliquely in the art he makes. And I

0:59:17.600 --> 0:59:20.360
<v Speaker 2>think that that's a conscious choice, but not like afraid

0:59:20.480 --> 0:59:24.240
<v Speaker 2>to do it. He has a different way of working.

0:59:24.360 --> 0:59:27.280
<v Speaker 1>Well, And it seems like, you know, it's not that

0:59:27.360 --> 0:59:31.439
<v Speaker 1>he kept them separate, but he wanted politics to serve art,

0:59:31.520 --> 0:59:34.440
<v Speaker 1>and so he didn't want to necessarily make art about politics, right.

0:59:34.480 --> 0:59:36.600
<v Speaker 1>He wanted to be able to just make the art

0:59:36.640 --> 0:59:39.040
<v Speaker 1>and have the political structure support that.

0:59:39.280 --> 0:59:44.120
<v Speaker 2>Create exactly, yeah, exactly. At this point, he puts out

0:59:44.120 --> 0:59:47.080
<v Speaker 2>his only novel, The Picture of Dorian Gray. The first

0:59:47.120 --> 0:59:49.800
<v Speaker 2>version comes out serialized in eighteen ninety, and then a

0:59:49.840 --> 0:59:52.960
<v Speaker 2>slightly more sanitized version is published on its own, and

0:59:53.040 --> 0:59:56.080
<v Speaker 2>everyone like knows it's a bit gay, like that's what's

0:59:56.320 --> 1:00:01.160
<v Speaker 2>sanitized about it with each release. His most famous plays

1:00:01.200 --> 1:00:03.520
<v Speaker 2>come out in the eighteen nineties, especially the Importance of

1:00:03.520 --> 1:00:09.000
<v Speaker 2>Being Earnest, and then after Pride Cometh the Fall and

1:00:09.120 --> 1:00:12.880
<v Speaker 2>somehow I'm going to tie it back into boxing and

1:00:12.920 --> 1:00:17.439
<v Speaker 2>We'll talk about it on Wednesday. That's part one.

1:00:18.040 --> 1:00:21.800
<v Speaker 1>I loved it. That was great. I'm really enjoying this.

1:00:22.480 --> 1:00:25.200
<v Speaker 1>I just had no idea such a shallow, such a

1:00:25.240 --> 1:00:28.720
<v Speaker 1>shallow vision I had of a man I love so much.

1:00:29.240 --> 1:00:31.120
<v Speaker 2>No, I know, I picked this one because I've been like,

1:00:31.440 --> 1:00:33.640
<v Speaker 2>actually was a little bit like I gotta be done

1:00:33.640 --> 1:00:35.520
<v Speaker 2>doing Irish ship for a while. Especially, I was like,

1:00:35.560 --> 1:00:37.680
<v Speaker 2>I gotta be done doing Irish Catholic ship for a while,

1:00:38.160 --> 1:00:39.840
<v Speaker 2>you know. But I was like, oh, I want to

1:00:39.880 --> 1:00:42.080
<v Speaker 2>do a you know, I want to do a moral panic.

1:00:42.240 --> 1:00:44.640
<v Speaker 2>And Oscar Wild's been like on my to do list

1:00:44.720 --> 1:00:47.120
<v Speaker 2>for a while and then I think the title of

1:00:47.160 --> 1:00:49.160
<v Speaker 2>this is going to be basically like Oscar Wild, the

1:00:49.200 --> 1:00:51.680
<v Speaker 2>story that's more important than I than even I realized,

1:00:52.240 --> 1:00:52.520
<v Speaker 2>you know.

1:00:52.600 --> 1:00:54.040
<v Speaker 1>More important than being earnest.

1:00:54.600 --> 1:01:01.040
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, totally. So if people want to hear your takes

1:01:01.120 --> 1:01:04.240
<v Speaker 2>on moral panics and urban legends, where can they do that?

1:01:04.920 --> 1:01:09.040
<v Speaker 1>You can find American Hysteria wherever you get your podcasts,

1:01:09.440 --> 1:01:12.880
<v Speaker 1>as we say in the industry, Yeah, I guess we're

1:01:12.920 --> 1:01:16.360
<v Speaker 1>on Instagram American Hysteria podcast. If you want to do.

1:01:16.320 --> 1:01:22.560
<v Speaker 2>That, cool, you can watch me. I take. I write

1:01:22.560 --> 1:01:24.640
<v Speaker 2>a substack and pretty much every week I find a

1:01:24.640 --> 1:01:27.480
<v Speaker 2>weird way to tie into thing that I'm deep diving

1:01:27.600 --> 1:01:29.960
<v Speaker 2>into whatever else I write, because it's like all I'm

1:01:30.000 --> 1:01:34.880
<v Speaker 2>thinking about. I wrote a piece on substack a couple

1:01:34.920 --> 1:01:37.560
<v Speaker 2>of weeks ago. As you hear this that you can

1:01:38.040 --> 1:01:42.560
<v Speaker 2>read more about Oscar Wild. No, it's not more about

1:01:42.560 --> 1:01:44.760
<v Speaker 2>Oscar Wild. You're going to get more out of the podcast.

1:01:45.120 --> 1:01:47.600
<v Speaker 2>Just go, I'm on substack. Go there. Half of it's

1:01:47.640 --> 1:01:54.240
<v Speaker 2>free and whatever, Sophie, what do you got to plug at.

1:01:53.240 --> 1:01:57.120
<v Speaker 1>Our cool Zone Media and cool zonemedia dot com.

1:01:57.880 --> 1:02:00.880
<v Speaker 2>All right, I'll see you off. I almost said Thursday,

1:02:00.880 --> 1:02:02.560
<v Speaker 2>but I don't know why, Oh, because that's the day

1:02:02.600 --> 1:02:10.480
<v Speaker 2>we record. I'll see you Wednesday. Cool People Who Did

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<v Speaker 2>Cool Stuff is a production of cool Zone Media.

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<v Speaker 1>For more podcasts on cool Zone Media, visit our website

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<v Speaker 1>Coolzonemedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,

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<v Speaker 1>Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.