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Speaker 1: Cool Zone Media.

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Speaker 2: Hello, and welcome to Cool People Did Cool Stuff, which

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Speaker 2: is a podcast and it's about the things it says

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Speaker 2: it's about. And I'm Margaret Kiljoy and I'm the host

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Speaker 2: of the podcast Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff. But

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Speaker 2: I have a guest today, which is good because I

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Speaker 2: wouldn't be able to keep up vamping by myself for

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Speaker 2: very long. And my guest is Chelsea Weber Smith, the

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Speaker 2: host of American Hysteria.

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Speaker 1: Hello, Margaret, thank you so much for having me.

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Speaker 2: Thanks.

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Speaker 1: I'm always it's always a joy to get to see

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Speaker 1: your face.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I said thanks instead of you're welcome. It's like

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Speaker 2: when you go to the grocery store and you and

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Speaker 2: you have the wrong interaction. Do you ever have the

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Speaker 2: wrong interaction with the person who's checking you out where

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Speaker 2: they're like, have a good day and you're or they're

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Speaker 2: like nope, I can't even do it right on the

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Speaker 2: top of my head, I've completely failed at this.

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Speaker 1: No, I'm perfect and have never had an embarrassing public.

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Speaker 2: Thanks for your purchase, and you go you too, Yeah, yeah, exactly,

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Speaker 2: that's what I was going for.

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Speaker 1: And Hi, Sophie, it's really nice to see you.

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Speaker 2: Saving me today is Sophie, you're the producer.

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Speaker 1: I just produced you.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm saved. That is what a producer's job is

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Speaker 2: on podcast if they're on MIC, is basically to save

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Speaker 2: the host. And I am very grateful to you too.

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Speaker 2: Did the bit twice, well done, Thank you. Our audio

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Speaker 2: engineer is danel Hi, danel Hey, dan Hi, and our

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Speaker 2: theme music was written for us by unwoman So American Hysteria.

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Speaker 2: Would you say that it is a podcast that is

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Speaker 2: sometimes about moral panics.

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Speaker 1: I would say that that's very accurate. Yes, we do

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Speaker 1: moral panics. We've been really on a big urban legends

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Speaker 1: kick lately, so we have like folks call in and

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Speaker 1: tell us about urban legends they heard growing up, and

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Speaker 1: we do like massive deep dives on those. We just

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Speaker 1: did like a gang initiation in season. If you remember

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Speaker 1: the story of the gang members who would murder anyone

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Speaker 1: who flashed their lights at them when they were driving

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Speaker 1: on the highway, you know, so we kind of dove

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Speaker 1: into that and the implications of that on the criminal

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Speaker 1: justice system, you know, lies about gang members and antique

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Speaker 1: gang legislation. So yeah, we just kind of will use

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Speaker 1: kind of these fun stories to get into deeper parts

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Speaker 1: of culture and politics.

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Speaker 2: I actually started listening to that particular episode of the

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Speaker 2: gang Initiations and then this is a terrible part of

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Speaker 2: the story. I had a friend who was murdered in

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Speaker 2: a gang initiation.

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Speaker 1: No way, okay, all right, yeah it happens.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, he was a squatter, someone killed him. And so

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Speaker 2: I had this like moment of like, I'm going to

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Speaker 2: listen to this tomorrow.

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Speaker 1: Yeah that's completely fair.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but yes, moral panics. I was like, what if

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Speaker 2: we talked this week about a moral panic? But then

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Speaker 2: and I found one that's not American.

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Speaker 1: Oh interesting, Okay, it.

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Speaker 2: Turns out we're not unique.

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Speaker 1: Oh no, we are not as much as we think

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Speaker 1: we are.

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Speaker 2: Ye to say, which goes against everything I've been taught.

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Speaker 2: The one thing I think we're unique about is her

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Speaker 2: belief in her uniqueness.

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Speaker 1: Yes.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, So today we're going to talk about one of

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Speaker 2: the greatest moral panics in English history, and one that

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Speaker 2: we're seeing some frightening echoes of today we are talking

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Speaker 2: about I'm curious when you'll figure ot what we're talking about.

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Speaker 2: We're I'm gonna talk about the wittiest and perhaps the

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Speaker 2: most aggressively misquoted man in the history of the English language.

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Speaker 2: Oscar Wilde, Oscar Wild fun fun, all right, Yeah, I

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Speaker 2: think that that, like the runner up is Einstein. If

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Speaker 2: someone says something, if you want to quote to sound smart,

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Speaker 2: you pretend like Einstein said it. And if you want

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Speaker 2: it to sound witty, you pretend like Oscar Wild said.

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Speaker 1: It, or like pretentious. Maybe that is true.

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Speaker 2: Too, Yes, yes, that is a thing that one could fairly.

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Speaker 1: Say, Oh, this is gonna be fun.

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Speaker 2: I'm really excited. Yeah, Oscar Wilde. And this is how

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Speaker 2: I kind of came up knowing about Oscar Wild. Oscar

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Speaker 2: Wild is painted by most history. Yeah, okay, what do

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Speaker 2: you know of Oscar Wild before I get into it?

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Speaker 1: Okay? Sure, amazing writer, terrible poet, and I Picture of

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Speaker 1: Dorian Gray was one of my favorite books in high school,

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Speaker 1: for sure. And I know that he was kind of

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Speaker 1: one of the outspoken figures in the earliest, you know,

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Speaker 1: queer movement. I don't know if he would like to

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Speaker 1: be called that, but you know, he was very much

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Speaker 1: a decadent who loved to admire beautiful things as a

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Speaker 1: somewhat rich individual, and eventually he'd go to trial pretty

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Speaker 1: much for being gay and creating. I believe of scene content.

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Speaker 1: I guess we'll find out.

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Speaker 2: So what I love about that is all of that

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Speaker 2: is true. He's also just the surface.

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Speaker 1: Okay, love it.

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Speaker 2: And although except the one thing I would say that actually,

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Speaker 2: after jail he wrote a really good poem.

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Speaker 1: Oh okay, all right, The Ballad.

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Speaker 2: Of Reading Jail is I think an amazing poem. I

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Speaker 2: think he probably had to suffer. He actually probably would

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Speaker 2: agree with this. We'll talk about this. He actually probably

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Speaker 2: had to suffer before he could write poetry.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely absolutely.

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Speaker 2: Oscar Wilde is painted by most history as sort of

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Speaker 2: an irreverent quip machine who is good for quote books

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Speaker 2: and not much else. And you know, I mean people

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Speaker 2: like the picture of Dorian Gray and people like the

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Speaker 2: importance of being earnest right, Oh yeah. The movement he's

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Speaker 2: most notably attached to is the aesthetic movement, and this

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Speaker 2: movement and he are criticized as being all style with

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Speaker 2: no substance. That is the primary thing that we hear

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Speaker 2: about Oscar wild That's not true, or that is not all.

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Speaker 2: Oscar Wilde was a politically and theologically engaged. He was

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Speaker 2: politically and theologically engaged as an Irish intellectual living in

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Speaker 2: the heart of Empire while playing the pop star. With

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Speaker 2: a single essay, he contributed massively to anarchist socialist theory.

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Speaker 2: He contributed financially to those committed who were committing direct action.

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Speaker 2: He was put up on charges for consentially fucking other

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Speaker 2: men and was sentenced to two years of hard labor,

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Speaker 2: which destroyed his health. He soon died, and in doing

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Speaker 2: so he became a martyr to the cause of queer

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Speaker 2: rights and a bit tangentially, he became a martyr to

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Speaker 2: Irish nationalism in the anarchist movement.

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Speaker 1: Aw, you're already blowing my mind.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, no, I like and even I knew like the

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Speaker 2: cliffs notes of this. People are like, oh, Oscar wild

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Speaker 2: like once called himself an anarchist. Isn't that cool? And

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Speaker 2: we're like, yeah, cool, we'll take him whatever. Yeah, I

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Speaker 2: didn't really believe it. No, I've read a lot about

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Speaker 2: it now and I'm going to make that case, all right.

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Speaker 2: He wasn't just a gay man on trial. He was

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Speaker 2: homosexuality on trial in England. This is the moral panic

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Speaker 2: that I'm referring to. He was every gay man before

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Speaker 2: and every gay man to come. On top of that,

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Speaker 2: his trial was framed by many as a condemnation of

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Speaker 2: not just his homosexuality, but also his irishness and his rebellious,

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Speaker 2: untamable spirit that was influencing culture away from colonial Victorian ideals.

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Speaker 2: And so it's his socialism and his irishness are also part.

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Speaker 1: Of this.

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Speaker 2: Western imperial civilization itself went on like was on the

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Speaker 2: line with the trial of Oscar Wilde. The spoiler, Western

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Speaker 2: imperial civilization won that particular trial. Yes, shocking, And he wrote,

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Speaker 2: especially at the end of his life, he wrote unique

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Speaker 2: queer anarchist Christian mystic theory that still inspires wonder and

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Speaker 2: the reader today. And yeah, he was really fucking votable.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: And not only did he practice the love that dare

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Speaker 2: not speak its name, his trash fire of a lover

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Speaker 2: coined the Love that dare not speak its name about

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Speaker 2: fucking him.

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Speaker 1: Wow. Wow.

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Speaker 2: So the love that dare not speak its name is

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Speaker 2: fucking Oscar wild Wow, which many people got to do.

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Speaker 1: It's hot, Yeah, it's very hot.

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Speaker 2: So Oscar wild or rather Oscar Fingalo flaerty Willis Wilde.

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Speaker 1: I can see why why he may have shortened it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, he had three middle names. He was born in

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Speaker 2: eighteen fifty four in Dublin in Ireland. He had Protestant

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Speaker 2: parents who were deeply involved in Irish nationalism. Just to

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Speaker 2: get one Bingo square out of the way right away.

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Speaker 2: It's a new Bingo square, but it's been coming up

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Speaker 2: a lot. Irish nationalism was not Catholic versus Protestant, and

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Speaker 2: only the colonial force of England and the theological authoritarians

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Speaker 2: in Rome wants you to believe it is all right.

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Speaker 2: He had too many middle names. They are all references

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Speaker 2: to various Irish nationalist things because his parents. His parents

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Speaker 2: are bougie as shit, don't get me wrong. He comes

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Speaker 2: from an important family, like with a capital I and

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Speaker 2: the other way that you indicate an important family, which

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Speaker 2: is clickable links of your parents' names in Wikipedia. Yes,

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Speaker 2: and as well as one of his great grandfathers one

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Speaker 2: of his like sec like cousins once removed, and his

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Speaker 2: great uncle was Charles Maturin, who wrote Melmoth the Wanderer,

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Speaker 2: which is like one of the early Gothic novels. I've

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Speaker 2: actually not read Melmouth the Wanderer. His rich ass parents

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Speaker 2: were kind of interesting. Okay, So usually what happens on

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Speaker 2: the show is I'll like cover a man, and then

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Speaker 2: they're the end of reading it, I'll be like, wait,

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Speaker 2: this man sucked and he was terrible. This does not

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Speaker 2: happen to Oscar Wilde. H hey, it does happen to

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Speaker 2: his parents. Wow, I had this whole thing written about

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Speaker 2: how amazing and interesting his parents are and then and

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Speaker 2: maybe we'll talk about it. Uh huh. His father was

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Speaker 2: Sir William Wilde, which is a kind of sick name.

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Speaker 2: I got a name, like, there's all Sir Willy Wilde.

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Speaker 2: He actually his brother's name Willy Wilde, and actually goes

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Speaker 2: by Willie. Sir William Wilde's a knight. He's knighted in

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Speaker 2: eighteen sixty four when Oscar's ten, so he doesn't start

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Speaker 2: off knighted, and he's knighted because he's like a really

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Speaker 2: really good surgeon. William did the thing that you can

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Speaker 2: do when you're rich and like, which is you can

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Speaker 2: do a million different things with your life because who's

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Speaker 2: going to stop you? And this is what you should do. Well,

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Speaker 2: actually what you should do if you're riches give all

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Speaker 2: of your money away and live like everyone else. But

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Speaker 2: if you're not going to do that, at least be

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Speaker 2: fucking interesting, boring rich people are the terrible why would you, yeah,

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Speaker 2: like do something. Yeah, I know his parents, they decide

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Speaker 2: to be interesting. Sir Billy, who did not go by

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Speaker 2: that to my knowledge, was an eye and ear surgeon

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Speaker 2: who wrote the books on those things, and apparently like

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Speaker 2: some of the things are still called like the wild

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Speaker 2: Cone and things like that. I'm not an ant and

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Speaker 2: I didn't bother asking my E and T friend about

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Speaker 2: this because I only learned this part very recently. He

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Speaker 2: was also a folklorist and he was like super like

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Speaker 2: down with helping people like he would. He was a doctor,

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Speaker 2: and he was like a doctor to like the fabulously

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Speaker 2: rich and stuff. But he also you could just like

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Speaker 2: call him and be like I don't have any money,

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Speaker 2: and you'd be like, tell me a good story.

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Speaker 1: Wow, okay.

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Speaker 2: And so he collected folklore in exchange for doing medical work.

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Speaker 1: That is really cool. That's really really cool. And I mean,

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Speaker 1: as someone who dreams to be in the folkal or lineage,

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Speaker 1: I always appreciate someone who collects stories because if you

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Speaker 1: don't collect the stories, they're going to disappear.

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Speaker 2: So I love that, I know. And it's like whenever

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Speaker 2: I read the Irish stories I'm like, oh, it's cool

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Speaker 2: if someone went around and rescued all these stories in

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Speaker 2: the late nineteenth century. I wish someone had done it

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Speaker 2: before the Catholic Church changed it dramatically.

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Speaker 1: Yes, that would have been nice.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and I mean some of that exists too. But like, anyway,

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Speaker 2: one time, Sir William went on pilgrimage to the Holy

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Speaker 2: Land and he like while he was there, two porpoises

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Speaker 2: jumped on board of the ship, so he like dissected them,

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Speaker 2: and then he wrote a two volume book on the

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Speaker 2: nursing habits of porpoises, just to like get an idea

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Speaker 2: of this man. Yes, he also he was an amateur Egyptologist.

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Speaker 2: And now we get into the like kind of sketchy

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Speaker 2: you know, like sure or the stuff that sure don't

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Speaker 2: look good. He was obsessed with Egypt like everyone in

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Speaker 2: Western Europe at the time, and.

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Speaker 1: He like Domania. Isn't that what it's called?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, this man was probably smoking some mummy ashes, you know.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, the style at the time as they did. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So he like explored tombs and you know, unearthed

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Speaker 2: the mummy, and he collected embalmed ibises. He also fucked

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Speaker 2: around all and what I first read was that he

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Speaker 2: did this in pops. The best way that one could

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Speaker 2: do that in that he he fucked around a lot.

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Speaker 2: He had a bunch of kids out of wedlock, and

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Speaker 2: the big reason he was immoral by the standards of

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Speaker 2: the time is that he cared about his bastard children

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Speaker 2: and he like let them come over and he didn't

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Speaker 2: exclude them from the family, and they were like at

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Speaker 2: the family events and stuff. You know, wow, what a monster,

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Speaker 2: I know. And he didn't cut the mothers out of

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Speaker 2: his life either. There's like this whole thing where like

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Speaker 2: one of the mothers of his children like came veiled

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Speaker 2: at his bedside as he was dying or whatever, and like.

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Speaker 1: So queer coded.

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Speaker 2: Honestly, that's true. And he died in eighteen seventy six,

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Speaker 2: when Oscar's around eighteen. So there's like that version of

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Speaker 2: him where he's just like eccentric, a little bit orientalist, like,

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Speaker 2: you know, cares about poor people. He was accused of

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Speaker 2: drugging a woman and raping her while she was under chloroform,

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Speaker 2: uh boy, in his capacity as a doctor, and historians

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Speaker 2: like to argue about that because it went to court

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Speaker 2: and stuff, and Oscar Wilde's mother, who otherwise looks amazing,

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Speaker 2: defended him in that case, and historians seem like genuinely

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Speaker 2: mixed about that. And I don't have enough information to opine,

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Speaker 2: but it don't look his mother besides, possibly this one

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Speaker 2: very not small oversight in her otherwise impeccable morals, was

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Speaker 2: really cool. Jane Wilde. This is who Oscar wild takes after.

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Speaker 2: Jane Wilde. Wears weird clothes and does weird stuff and

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Speaker 2: is just like, I'm gonna be a weird lady. That's

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Speaker 2: my thing. She spoke ten languages by the time she

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Speaker 2: was eighteen. She wasn't actually raised as wealthy as her

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Speaker 2: husband was and as her kids were, but I don't

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Speaker 2: think she was raised poor. And she also liked to

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Speaker 2: claim she was Italian, even though she wasn't. And she

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Speaker 2: also claimed to be descended from Dante of Dante's Inferno.

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Speaker 2: This is not true, she just like to say it.

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Speaker 2: She was a prolific writer, and both her and her

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Speaker 2: husband were Irish nationalists, like you know, Irish revolutionaries who

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Speaker 2: believed it should be free from England, and she outlived

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Speaker 2: her husband by blessed decades. She wrote a bunch of

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Speaker 2: books on Irish folklore. She kind of continued her husband's

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Speaker 2: work and like actually like really got it published and

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Speaker 2: stuff like that.

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Speaker 1: That's cool.

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Speaker 2: She was also part of the Young Ireland movement of

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Speaker 2: the eighteen forties, which was the more radical side of

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Speaker 2: Irish independence movement at the time. And this later becomes

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Speaker 2: the Irish Republican Brotherhood, which sort of becomes the IRA

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Speaker 2: which causes the freedom from Ireland and then causes the troubles,

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Speaker 2: and well, I'll blame England, actually have the trouble, the

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Speaker 2: troubles be blamed on England. But so she's part of

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Speaker 2: like many generations back of a direct line of the

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Speaker 2: people who freed Ireland. Okay, she took up a pen

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Speaker 2: name when she wrote, which is Speranza, which is Italian

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Speaker 2: for hope. Italian nationalism. I was like trying to figure

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Speaker 2: out what the Italian thing was once she's like likes

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Speaker 2: claiming that she's Italian. But the other thing is that

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Speaker 2: Italian nationalism was like the nationalism it was like seen

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Speaker 2: as like the original European nationalism, which is means a

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Speaker 2: completely different thing, and it does right now. It means

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Speaker 2: the whatever you're thinking, it means the opposite opposite. Yes, yeah,

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Speaker 2: there's so many things that are going to come up

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Speaker 2: in this episode that are exactly the like things that

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Speaker 2: don't make any that seem the opposite now, you know,

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Speaker 2: or like are just sketchy to talk about.

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Speaker 1: Sure, But.

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Speaker 2: She wrote poetry, she translated from French and German, and

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Speaker 2: she wrote essays with themes like what if we all

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Speaker 2: got a bunch of guns and shot the British until

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Speaker 2: they left us alone?

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Speaker 1: Okay?

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Speaker 2: This got her in some trouble, or rather it got

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Speaker 2: men around her in trouble.

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Speaker 1: Okay.

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Speaker 2: The main journal of the Young Ireland movement was called

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Speaker 2: The Nation, which was put together by two Catholics and

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Speaker 2: one Protestant see the aforementioned footnote. Jane Wilde, or rather

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Speaker 2: Speranza wrote for it and got the paper in some trouble,

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Speaker 2: and just to say about what Irish nationalism meant at

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Speaker 2: the time, because I actually think is really relevant to

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Speaker 2: what's going on in Ireland right now, where people I

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Speaker 2: think are misrepresenting Irish nationalism to mean racism. Charles Duffy,

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Speaker 2: who started The Nation, which was one of the very

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Speaker 2: important papers of all of this, is quoted as saying

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Speaker 2: that the nationalism that they were building, would just as

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Speaker 2: easily embrace quote the stranger who is within our gates

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Speaker 2: as quote the irishmen of one hundred generations.

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Speaker 1: This was not a.

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Speaker 2: Universally held opinion among Irish nationalism, but it was a

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Speaker 2: mainstream opinion among Irish nationalism. This is not the out

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Speaker 2: their paper when I said that they're the more radical side.

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Speaker 2: There's people more radical than them.

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Speaker 1: You know.

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Speaker 2: The Nation also regularly published a fuckt ton of women.

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Speaker 2: Speranza was one of three the Graces because of course

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Speaker 2: they still have to become like weirdly misogynistic about how

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Speaker 2: they name the women who write for it.

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Speaker 1: But it is kind of a badass monarch.

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Speaker 2: I know, I don't mind being one of the Graces. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: and then there's like four or five women mentioned as

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Speaker 2: writing for it besides these three who wrote for it,

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Speaker 2: like all the fucking time, who are the Graces? In

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Speaker 2: the eighteen forties, the Irish were fighting landlords. The Irish

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Speaker 2: were always fighting landlords, so the Nation had a pretty

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Speaker 2: militant tone. Speranza wrote, some of that militant shit, there's

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Speaker 2: like I want to see a sea of muskets pointing

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Speaker 2: towards the sky, listening you know she's a poet, right.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, she's a poet. Yeah, which is very helpful. I

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Speaker 1: think in these types of situations.

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Speaker 2: It really is you gotta yeah, you gotta make it sexy.

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Speaker 1: You gotta have that rhetoric. Man. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: In eighteen forty eight, which is a year into the

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Speaker 2: Potato genocide, revolutions are sweeping Europe and I can't believe

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Speaker 2: we haven't covered the revolutions of eighteen forty eight yet.

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Speaker 2: I think it's one of those topics. It's like so

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Speaker 2: big that I'm like, ooh, it's like the Russian Revolution.

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Speaker 2: I haven't covered the Russian Revolution yet, you.

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Speaker 1: Know, Yeah, you're gonna need a few episodes for that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. And she wrote that Ireland should join that

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Speaker 2: wave of revolutions. So Charles Duffy, the editor, was put

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Speaker 2: on trial for her words, and now they put him

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Speaker 2: on trial. I think I've also read the videos on

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Speaker 2: trial for some other shit and then this stuff happened.

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Speaker 2: But I've read both and they're like, all right, who's

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Speaker 2: Beranza And he's like, I'm not fucking telling you that.

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Speaker 2: They're like, we're gonna throw you in prison. He's like,

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Speaker 2: I'm not fucking telling you that.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So he went to trial because they couldn't figure

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Speaker 1: out who she was.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, basically, okay.

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Speaker 1: Well not to say he wouldn't have also been on trial,

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Speaker 1: but it wasn't like he took her place. He just

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Speaker 1: didn't give her up.

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Speaker 2: Okay, right, that's the I mean. I've read two different accounts,

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Speaker 2: Like one was that he was went on trial for

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Speaker 2: publishing those words, and one was that all of the

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Speaker 2: stuff happened while he was on trial for anyway, and

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Speaker 2: I don't know which which I believe. So while this

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Speaker 2: is happening, she's in court supporting him, and finally she's

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Speaker 2: just like she just stands up and she's like, I

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Speaker 2: did it, I wrote it.

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Speaker 1: That was me.

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Speaker 2: And the court ignored her. I think because she was

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Speaker 2: a woman.

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Speaker 1: Okay.

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Speaker 2: I think they were like, now we're good, we're gonna

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Speaker 2: fuck because they also were just trying to shut down

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Speaker 2: this paper, right right, and they do, they shut down

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Speaker 2: the nation. And then Jane Wilde just started it right

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Speaker 2: the fuck back up again and is now the editor

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Speaker 2: of it. And Crow's feminism more aggressively into the mix,

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Speaker 2: and we're talking about the like eighteen forty eight, that

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Speaker 2: is some early feminism.

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Speaker 1: That's a big deal. Oh yeah, yeah, that's like sixty

398
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Speaker 1: years early.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. And this is all before she gets married and

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Speaker 2: has Oscar. But the other thing that you should do

401
00:21:10,440 --> 00:21:14,000
Speaker 2: before you get married and give birth to a witty

402
00:21:14,080 --> 00:21:20,320
Speaker 2: and misunderstood man is consume the products that advertise on

403
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Speaker 2: this show as though they are sacrament, as though they

404
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Speaker 2: are holy or unholy whatever. Your preference is the thing

405
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Speaker 2: that will bring you closer to dads. And we're back.

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Speaker 2: So she starts off married life pretty wealthy, and you know,

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Speaker 2: she marries rich doctor guy, and then the rich doctor

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Speaker 2: man dies young and it turns out there's not so

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Speaker 2: much money after all.

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Speaker 1: I was like, I was like, I was like, scam

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Speaker 1: all right.

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Speaker 2: I know, for a moment, I'm like, well, how does

413
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Speaker 2: he die? Like maybe you know, like, oh my rapist husband,

414
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Speaker 2: Oh we fell down the stairs. Now I think I

415
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Speaker 2: think he dies naturally. And and the family actually struggles

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Speaker 2: a lot, but in that like aristocratic struggle way, like

417
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Speaker 2: they are not homeless. They are not going to be homeless.

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Speaker 2: Well at the end of their life, that's different. Sure,

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Speaker 2: So those are his parents. Oscar Wilde is a mama's boy.

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Speaker 2: And here's I know, here's some stuff. That's some people

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Speaker 2: who don't like Oscar wild will read too much into

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Speaker 2: and those of us who do like Oscar wild will

423
00:22:41,960 --> 00:22:44,879
Speaker 2: also read too much into. Right, his mother had wanted

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Speaker 2: a girl, and so while all little boys at the

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Speaker 2: time in Dublin were wearing dresses, right like that was

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Speaker 2: just what you do.

427
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Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a great photo of Fdr too wearing just

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Speaker 1: a gorgeous little gown with the ringlet.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah yeah, Oscar Wilde was dressed in like particularly feminine,

430
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Speaker 2: like frilly, lacey dresses and stuff like.

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Speaker 1: Note, we're like notably yeah, Like.

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Speaker 2: People are like noticing, like, okay, because Jane Wild's a

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Speaker 2: little bit weird, you know, and this is like among

434
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Speaker 2: the weird things that she's doing.

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Speaker 1: Certified eccentric.

436
00:23:20,800 --> 00:23:25,479
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, until she has another kid. She has a daughter. Finally,

437
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Speaker 2: he has an older brother named Willie, and is a

438
00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:32,600
Speaker 2: bunch of older half siblings, including two half sisters who

439
00:23:32,800 --> 00:23:36,720
Speaker 2: die tragically in a fire, which happened way more often

440
00:23:36,720 --> 00:23:38,400
Speaker 2: back in the day. You usually walking around a night

441
00:23:38,400 --> 00:23:40,280
Speaker 2: clothes and everything's lit by candles, and then you're on

442
00:23:40,359 --> 00:23:41,120
Speaker 2: fire and die.

443
00:23:41,560 --> 00:23:45,080
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, and then the whole city birds.

444
00:23:45,119 --> 00:23:49,119
Speaker 2: I know. Yeah, so he ends up with a younger

445
00:23:49,160 --> 00:23:53,800
Speaker 2: sister named a Sola, and Sola is going to die

446
00:23:53,840 --> 00:23:57,400
Speaker 2: of a fever when she's ten, and Oscar Wild never

447
00:23:57,560 --> 00:23:59,760
Speaker 2: really gets over this, and he keeps a lock of

448
00:23:59,760 --> 00:24:01,919
Speaker 2: all his hair and a satchel in his pocket for

449
00:24:01,960 --> 00:24:05,879
Speaker 2: the rest of his life. He lives at home as

450
00:24:05,880 --> 00:24:08,040
Speaker 2: a rich kid until he's nine, and he has French

451
00:24:08,080 --> 00:24:12,480
Speaker 2: and German servants that have various servant names like wet

452
00:24:12,560 --> 00:24:17,399
Speaker 2: nurse and governess and stuff. I don't know whatever, fucking

453
00:24:17,480 --> 00:24:20,840
Speaker 2: rich kid and French and German servants are teaching him

454
00:24:20,920 --> 00:24:24,080
Speaker 2: languages and shit, and then he's off to school. He

455
00:24:24,160 --> 00:24:27,080
Speaker 2: is a voracious speed reader. He claims that he can

456
00:24:27,119 --> 00:24:29,760
Speaker 2: read both facing pages of a book at the same time.

457
00:24:30,840 --> 00:24:32,560
Speaker 2: What I don't believe.

458
00:24:32,359 --> 00:24:36,120
Speaker 1: Him, No, absolutely not, but I like it.

459
00:24:36,440 --> 00:24:43,119
Speaker 2: Yeah, like people, he can read really fast and he

460
00:24:43,359 --> 00:24:48,159
Speaker 2: is a weirdo fucking goth kid at school. From the jump,

461
00:24:48,880 --> 00:24:52,199
Speaker 2: it's not just a dandy. He's like the dandy. He

462
00:24:52,359 --> 00:24:55,480
Speaker 2: is the archetype of dandy, from which all, he's not

463
00:24:55,480 --> 00:24:57,960
Speaker 2: the first dandy, but like he is the dandy right.

464
00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:02,280
Speaker 2: One of his affectations his whole life is he always

465
00:25:02,280 --> 00:25:04,959
Speaker 2: acts like he's like lounging around and living an idle

466
00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:09,400
Speaker 2: life and he never does any work. In reality, whenever

467
00:25:09,480 --> 00:25:15,159
Speaker 2: people aren't watching, he is working. Oh he is. He

468
00:25:15,280 --> 00:25:18,920
Speaker 2: is reading, he is writing. He like practices his witticisms

469
00:25:18,960 --> 00:25:19,600
Speaker 2: in the mirror.

470
00:25:20,359 --> 00:25:21,639
Speaker 1: Oh that's cute.

471
00:25:22,040 --> 00:25:25,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, he puts in the hours. Like all the photos

472
00:25:25,080 --> 00:25:28,240
Speaker 2: of him are like him, like very lounged out. Right.

473
00:25:28,280 --> 00:25:33,440
Speaker 1: We see him on a fainting couch in imagination. Yes,

474
00:25:33,880 --> 00:25:37,679
Speaker 1: his wrist just limply like hanging down. Yeah.

475
00:25:37,960 --> 00:25:41,399
Speaker 2: He's a perfect man, yes, completely perfect. But I like

476
00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:42,160
Speaker 2: him quite a lot.

477
00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:44,320
Speaker 1: Yes, I like him quite a lot as well.

478
00:25:44,680 --> 00:25:48,199
Speaker 2: And yeah, and I really like that this is he

479
00:25:48,240 --> 00:25:50,200
Speaker 2: actually just at the end of the day, he's like, no,

480
00:25:50,320 --> 00:25:53,159
Speaker 2: he's he's working. He is reading constantly. He speaks a

481
00:25:53,160 --> 00:25:57,080
Speaker 2: bunch of languages. But it's not he's smart. But he

482
00:25:57,359 --> 00:25:58,480
Speaker 2: has to put in the work too.

483
00:25:59,000 --> 00:26:00,480
Speaker 1: Yeah.

484
00:26:00,520 --> 00:26:04,560
Speaker 2: His biography, for someone who's very well documented, is really messy.

485
00:26:04,640 --> 00:26:07,480
Speaker 2: There's a lot of scholarly arguments about the accuracy of

486
00:26:07,520 --> 00:26:12,200
Speaker 2: his various biographies, and he was not above embellishing the truth,

487
00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:15,520
Speaker 2: much like his mother. I don't think he would mind

488
00:26:15,560 --> 00:26:19,880
Speaker 2: that he's so often misquoted. He also, like every now

489
00:26:19,920 --> 00:26:22,520
Speaker 2: and then someone would like say something witty around him,

490
00:26:22,560 --> 00:26:24,520
Speaker 2: and then they'd be like, fuck, you're gonna steal that,

491
00:26:24,560 --> 00:26:26,760
Speaker 2: aren't you, And he's like, yeah.

492
00:26:27,160 --> 00:26:30,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, I am. It's what I do. Being a podcaster.

493
00:26:33,680 --> 00:26:36,480
Speaker 1: He would definitely had a podcast.

494
00:26:36,160 --> 00:26:39,200
Speaker 2: And it would have been good. That's the thing. Most

495
00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:41,359
Speaker 2: people in history who would have had podcasts it would

496
00:26:41,359 --> 00:26:44,720
Speaker 2: have been absolute shit. His would have been fucking good,

497
00:26:45,600 --> 00:26:48,719
Speaker 2: really good. I am not confident enough of a scholar

498
00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:52,000
Speaker 2: to peace out everything about his early life. What is

499
00:26:52,040 --> 00:26:55,000
Speaker 2: true and what is uh embellished and stuff like that,

500
00:26:56,240 --> 00:26:59,119
Speaker 2: So some of the stories I hear about it, I'm like,

501
00:26:59,280 --> 00:27:04,520
Speaker 2: uh huh okay, But overall people are pretty consistent. He

502
00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:06,199
Speaker 2: went off to boarding school, and then he goes to

503
00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:08,639
Speaker 2: Trinity College in Dublin, and then he gets a scholarship

504
00:27:08,680 --> 00:27:11,959
Speaker 2: to Oxford. And he is a fucking weirdo in school.

505
00:27:12,040 --> 00:27:14,200
Speaker 2: He wears his Sunday best every day of the week.

506
00:27:14,359 --> 00:27:17,960
Speaker 2: He wears like a big silk top hat. He's six

507
00:27:18,040 --> 00:27:21,520
Speaker 2: foot two in a time when people aren't as tall

508
00:27:21,560 --> 00:27:22,480
Speaker 2: as they are now.

509
00:27:23,800 --> 00:27:27,119
Speaker 1: He wears his tall I didn't know. Yeah, that seems

510
00:27:27,160 --> 00:27:29,679
Speaker 1: like really important for some reason to know he was.

511
00:27:30,800 --> 00:27:34,720
Speaker 2: Okay, Yeah, Okay, he is he is not a small man,

512
00:27:35,400 --> 00:27:37,159
Speaker 2: and he wears his hair long and he wears like

513
00:27:37,240 --> 00:27:42,920
Speaker 2: green ties, and he always looks wild to nominative determinant him.

514
00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:46,479
Speaker 2: So at one point, he's like a young teen and

515
00:27:46,480 --> 00:27:48,760
Speaker 2: he's reading a poem to the class and it's this

516
00:27:48,880 --> 00:27:51,040
Speaker 2: like super earnest poem and as you point it out,

517
00:27:51,119 --> 00:27:53,440
Speaker 2: he's like, he doesn't start off a great poet, right,

518
00:27:53,560 --> 00:27:57,240
Speaker 2: that is like not as immediate skill set, and the

519
00:27:57,280 --> 00:28:02,160
Speaker 2: class bully makes fun of him. So Oscar wild walks

520
00:28:02,240 --> 00:28:05,919
Speaker 2: up and slaps the bully in the face. Yes, So

521
00:28:05,960 --> 00:28:10,000
Speaker 2: the bully is like, all right, we got fight. And

522
00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:13,080
Speaker 2: there's very nothing's ever changed about boys in school. So

523
00:28:13,119 --> 00:28:15,399
Speaker 2: they're like, all right, we're gonna meet behind the playground

524
00:28:15,480 --> 00:28:19,480
Speaker 2: after school. We're gonna throw down, you know. And everyone

525
00:28:19,520 --> 00:28:22,000
Speaker 2: shows up and they're like, yeah, we're gonna watch probably

526
00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:24,119
Speaker 2: Oscar Wow, the weird nerdy kid. None of us like

527
00:28:24,119 --> 00:28:27,639
Speaker 2: get beat up. Oscar takes him down with one punch

528
00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:29,600
Speaker 2: and then beats the shit out of him always.

529
00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:36,359
Speaker 1: Wow wow on half of the whole school really, I imagine.

530
00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:39,560
Speaker 2: Like and this is where they're like, oh, you didn't

531
00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:43,640
Speaker 2: notice that that man is very tall? Like, yeah, one

532
00:28:43,680 --> 00:28:47,760
Speaker 2: of my favorite genres of horrible live video that you

533
00:28:47,760 --> 00:28:50,200
Speaker 2: can see on the internet is there'll be like a

534
00:28:50,240 --> 00:28:52,640
Speaker 2: trans woman or a drag queen walking around and someone

535
00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:56,880
Speaker 2: will harass her and she'll start off being like, hey,

536
00:28:57,520 --> 00:29:01,560
Speaker 2: don't mess with me, you know, and then like finally

537
00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:04,800
Speaker 2: just like stands to full height and it's like you

538
00:29:04,920 --> 00:29:08,640
Speaker 2: a fucking problem, And it just makes my heart leap

539
00:29:08,640 --> 00:29:09,080
Speaker 2: with joy.

540
00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:11,240
Speaker 1: Makes me think of like when you put your whole

541
00:29:11,560 --> 00:29:14,560
Speaker 1: like palm on someone's face and just push them down

542
00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:17,880
Speaker 1: until they're on their knees. Yeah, I get them. Yeah

543
00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:19,920
Speaker 1: that I haven't watched a lot of those videos, but

544
00:29:19,920 --> 00:29:22,120
Speaker 1: that will be what I will be doing right after this.

545
00:29:22,440 --> 00:29:25,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a really good British one, all right. I

546
00:29:25,360 --> 00:29:30,560
Speaker 2: think it's rent free in my head. And so he

547
00:29:30,680 --> 00:29:32,720
Speaker 2: goes on to have like almost no interest in sports

548
00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:35,600
Speaker 2: in school, with two notable exceptions. He tries to get

549
00:29:35,600 --> 00:29:38,560
Speaker 2: into rowing, but everyone is mad because he just like

550
00:29:38,600 --> 00:29:40,880
Speaker 2: gets in the rowboat and like kind of leisurely rows

551
00:29:40,920 --> 00:29:43,960
Speaker 2: around like enjoy the lake. So like, why aren't you

552
00:29:43,960 --> 00:29:44,200
Speaker 2: and her?

553
00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:47,360
Speaker 1: And he's like to say, rowing is like boat boys

554
00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:49,120
Speaker 1: are usually like a major red flag.

555
00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:52,160
Speaker 2: Oh interesting, Yeah, well, they don't like him on the

556
00:29:52,240 --> 00:29:52,800
Speaker 2: rowing team.

557
00:29:53,840 --> 00:29:57,920
Speaker 1: Well that that that that's good. Yeah, yeah, we're back, Oscar,

558
00:29:58,000 --> 00:30:01,920
Speaker 1: We're back. He's like nap on a rowboat kind of man.

559
00:30:02,440 --> 00:30:08,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, there's one sport he's good at boxing.

560
00:30:08,760 --> 00:30:11,920
Speaker 1: No way. Yeah, you're already blown my mind? All right?

561
00:30:12,000 --> 00:30:13,360
Speaker 1: Yeah awesome.

562
00:30:14,120 --> 00:30:18,400
Speaker 2: Somewhere along the way he gets into asceticism. And this

563
00:30:18,520 --> 00:30:21,360
Speaker 2: is a growing but roundly mocked movement of the time.

564
00:30:21,640 --> 00:30:24,840
Speaker 2: This is the art movement equivalent of the Oscar Wild,

565
00:30:24,960 --> 00:30:27,960
Speaker 2: the nerd that everyone is making fun of. Right But

566
00:30:28,080 --> 00:30:30,200
Speaker 2: if this is the case once again, Oscar Wild is

567
00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:32,480
Speaker 2: going to prove stronger than his bullies, because soon enough

568
00:30:32,760 --> 00:30:35,600
Speaker 2: he is the most famous Irishman in England. Even though

569
00:30:35,640 --> 00:30:39,320
Speaker 2: he is the representative of this art movement that everyone

570
00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:44,240
Speaker 2: claims to hate, he is a complete and utter pop

571
00:30:44,240 --> 00:30:47,440
Speaker 2: star of his time. It is like can't apparently kind

572
00:30:47,480 --> 00:30:49,120
Speaker 2: of can't be overstated?

573
00:30:49,440 --> 00:30:51,240
Speaker 1: Wow, Okay, So.

574
00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:54,840
Speaker 2: He gets into asceticism. What is asceticism, you might ask, Well,

575
00:30:54,840 --> 00:30:57,680
Speaker 2: it's a word that Margaret pronounces differently than other people

576
00:30:57,840 --> 00:31:02,560
Speaker 2: and doesn't feel bad about it. Aesthetics asthetics. Well, I

577
00:31:02,600 --> 00:31:06,440
Speaker 2: don't freaking care. It is an art movement that stands

578
00:31:06,440 --> 00:31:09,800
Speaker 2: against everything Victorian England was four. It is art for

579
00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:14,880
Speaker 2: art's sake, not for upholding the moral values of mainstream society. Literally,

580
00:31:14,920 --> 00:31:18,000
Speaker 2: the slogan art for art's Sake comes from this movement,

581
00:31:18,680 --> 00:31:21,480
Speaker 2: and I think maybe the guy who coined the phrase

582
00:31:21,680 --> 00:31:24,480
Speaker 2: was Walter Pater, a gay academic and artist who is

583
00:31:24,520 --> 00:31:27,720
Speaker 2: one of Oscar's mentors at school. And when I talk

584
00:31:27,760 --> 00:31:29,680
Speaker 2: about the fact that he's a gay mentor in school,

585
00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:32,520
Speaker 2: I want to make the following point. It is worth

586
00:31:32,560 --> 00:31:36,120
Speaker 2: noting that Oscar Wild ends up gay, probably not even

587
00:31:36,160 --> 00:31:39,400
Speaker 2: by modern centers, bisexual, and he specifically ends up believing

588
00:31:39,440 --> 00:31:42,320
Speaker 2: in a Greek that gets quotes. It's how he viewed it.

589
00:31:42,480 --> 00:31:46,200
Speaker 2: Greek style homosexuality were older men date younger men, but

590
00:31:46,320 --> 00:31:48,760
Speaker 2: not children at least as was understood at the time

591
00:31:48,800 --> 00:31:52,600
Speaker 2: in England, and he ends up, you know, into this

592
00:31:52,640 --> 00:31:56,320
Speaker 2: style of homosexuality, he dates younger men. The general scholarly

593
00:31:56,360 --> 00:31:59,120
Speaker 2: consensus is that he was probably not fucking these these

594
00:31:59,120 --> 00:32:02,280
Speaker 2: professors at school. He was not fucking men at all

595
00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:04,600
Speaker 2: at that time until a good bit later. And one

596
00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:07,239
Speaker 2: of the reasons that we I tend to believe this

597
00:32:07,280 --> 00:32:09,920
Speaker 2: particular claim is that once he starts fucking men. He

598
00:32:09,960 --> 00:32:14,080
Speaker 2: does not look back, and also like he doesn't have

599
00:32:14,120 --> 00:32:16,800
Speaker 2: a lot to hide. He went to prison and it

600
00:32:16,840 --> 00:32:18,000
Speaker 2: basically killed him.

601
00:32:18,280 --> 00:32:20,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, like he would have owned it, you

602
00:32:20,120 --> 00:32:21,720
Speaker 1: think if if it happened.

603
00:32:22,800 --> 00:32:26,000
Speaker 2: Probably. Yeah, it's complicated. We'll talk about when we get

604
00:32:26,040 --> 00:32:28,520
Speaker 2: to the end of his life. But yeah, while he's

605
00:32:28,520 --> 00:32:31,920
Speaker 2: in school, he also takes an interest in it besides

606
00:32:31,960 --> 00:32:36,600
Speaker 2: a stheticism in Catholicism, and his dad is like, you

607
00:32:36,680 --> 00:32:38,600
Speaker 2: do that shit, You're out of the fucking will no

608
00:32:38,880 --> 00:32:40,320
Speaker 2: fucking papists in my house.

609
00:32:40,440 --> 00:32:40,840
Speaker 1: Mm hmm.

610
00:32:41,680 --> 00:32:44,400
Speaker 2: In eighteen seventy seven, when he's twenty three, he somehow

611
00:32:44,440 --> 00:32:49,280
Speaker 2: gets a private meeting with the fucking Pope, who tells

612
00:32:49,360 --> 00:32:52,200
Speaker 2: him quote, I hope that you may take a journey

613
00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:54,200
Speaker 2: in life in order to arrive at the City of

614
00:32:54,240 --> 00:32:57,800
Speaker 2: God and spoiler alert, that's among the things he does,

615
00:32:58,600 --> 00:33:01,040
Speaker 2: okay without stopping being gay.

616
00:33:01,640 --> 00:33:02,040
Speaker 1: Wow.

617
00:33:02,960 --> 00:33:05,240
Speaker 2: So he's in school and he loves the aesthetic movement,

618
00:33:05,640 --> 00:33:08,640
Speaker 2: and I think it's a movement that is actually still

619
00:33:08,640 --> 00:33:11,120
Speaker 2: a little bit understood. It's critics call it useless in

620
00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:15,520
Speaker 2: shadow all style and no substance, but their goal was beautification,

621
00:33:15,680 --> 00:33:18,960
Speaker 2: to make life richer. One of Wild's professors, did this

622
00:33:19,000 --> 00:33:21,720
Speaker 2: whole art thing that wildlike volunteered for, even a Wild

623
00:33:21,760 --> 00:33:25,239
Speaker 2: hated manual labor and waking up early. Apparently they all

624
00:33:25,320 --> 00:33:27,320
Speaker 2: just like went around and planted flowers next to the

625
00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:28,840
Speaker 2: road to make the road pretty.

626
00:33:29,440 --> 00:33:30,440
Speaker 1: What's wrong with that?

627
00:33:31,280 --> 00:33:32,600
Speaker 2: Fucking nothing's wrong with that.

628
00:33:32,800 --> 00:33:34,000
Speaker 1: In fact, the opposite.

629
00:33:34,080 --> 00:33:39,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, And Walter Pater said, not the fruit

630
00:33:39,920 --> 00:33:44,920
Speaker 2: of experience, but experience itself is the end. And I

631
00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:46,680
Speaker 2: believe that with every fiber of my being. Yeah, it

632
00:33:46,680 --> 00:33:48,760
Speaker 2: does not stop me from being politically engaged, and it

633
00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:50,640
Speaker 2: did not stop Oscar Wild. So this is part of

634
00:33:50,640 --> 00:33:54,080
Speaker 2: why I think that astheticism in Oscar's astheticism is misunderstood.

635
00:33:54,520 --> 00:33:56,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's kind of I mean, it makes me

636
00:33:56,040 --> 00:33:58,760
Speaker 1: think almost of like the bread and Roses slogan, where

637
00:33:58,760 --> 00:34:03,320
Speaker 1: it's like, yeah, that's like you need, you know, political help,

638
00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:05,600
Speaker 1: you need to be out of poverty, but you also

639
00:34:05,720 --> 00:34:08,760
Speaker 1: need to experience beauty and be able to access beauty.

640
00:34:08,840 --> 00:34:12,280
Speaker 1: So it feels like by planting flowers by the roadside,

641
00:34:12,280 --> 00:34:15,880
Speaker 1: you're actually making beauty accessible to people, and that's something

642
00:34:15,880 --> 00:34:18,480
Speaker 1: that we need. We need beautiful things. They don't have

643
00:34:18,520 --> 00:34:22,839
Speaker 1: to be like rich richuly manufactured things, but they can

644
00:34:22,880 --> 00:34:24,840
Speaker 1: be you know, wildflowers.

645
00:34:25,400 --> 00:34:28,040
Speaker 2: Oh his, you're going to love his socialism when we

646
00:34:28,080 --> 00:34:30,640
Speaker 2: start talking about all right, let's do it, because that

647
00:34:30,719 --> 00:34:34,719
Speaker 2: is that is the page he's on, all right. And

648
00:34:34,760 --> 00:34:38,000
Speaker 2: so even while he's still in school, once he's in Oxford,

649
00:34:38,200 --> 00:34:41,640
Speaker 2: he is like famous and he's known as like a

650
00:34:41,680 --> 00:34:46,200
Speaker 2: man about town even though he hasn't done anything. He's

651
00:34:46,239 --> 00:34:48,839
Speaker 2: invited to all the parties. He proves he's this amazingly

652
00:34:48,880 --> 00:34:51,759
Speaker 2: witty conversationalist. At the end of the day, this is

653
00:34:51,760 --> 00:34:53,840
Speaker 2: the main thing he's remembered for as being fucking witty.

654
00:34:53,920 --> 00:34:56,520
Speaker 2: He used to practice conversation and study it like an art.

655
00:34:57,280 --> 00:34:59,319
Speaker 2: He winds up the face of the aesthetic movement even

656
00:34:59,320 --> 00:35:01,279
Speaker 2: though he hasn't done and like people are a little

657
00:35:01,320 --> 00:35:04,120
Speaker 2: bit like, wait what by being the face of the

658
00:35:04,160 --> 00:35:07,120
Speaker 2: aesthetic movement, it's in there's like characters making fun of

659
00:35:07,160 --> 00:35:11,120
Speaker 2: the aesthetic movement that are based on him, like plays

660
00:35:11,160 --> 00:35:13,200
Speaker 2: and shit. So people who actually are making art are

661
00:35:13,239 --> 00:35:15,960
Speaker 2: making art making fun of this artist who hasn't done

662
00:35:16,000 --> 00:35:16,600
Speaker 2: anything yet.

663
00:35:16,760 --> 00:35:19,719
Speaker 1: Okay, okay, yeah, And people are.

664
00:35:19,640 --> 00:35:23,000
Speaker 2: A little bit like, okay, but what has this guy done?

665
00:35:23,160 --> 00:35:25,400
Speaker 2: You know? Yeah, he wears weird clothes. He goes to

666
00:35:25,440 --> 00:35:29,200
Speaker 2: all the parties, and at some point during all of this,

667
00:35:30,640 --> 00:35:34,000
Speaker 2: a bunch of bros pick on him again, so he

668
00:35:34,080 --> 00:35:38,279
Speaker 2: beats up four of them at the same time, and

669
00:35:38,320 --> 00:35:41,680
Speaker 2: then invites the crowd to go raid those guys like

670
00:35:41,880 --> 00:35:43,880
Speaker 2: dorm room to steal all their liquor.

671
00:35:44,640 --> 00:35:49,560
Speaker 1: Wow, folk hero, that's folk hero status for sure.

672
00:35:49,960 --> 00:35:54,839
Speaker 2: Yeah, he is bashing back as a queer before he's

673
00:35:54,840 --> 00:35:55,880
Speaker 2: figured out he's queer.

674
00:35:56,280 --> 00:36:00,000
Speaker 1: Yep. Hey, it's it's within us all yeah.

675
00:36:00,040 --> 00:36:03,359
Speaker 2: And the story feels apocryphal to me, but it is.

676
00:36:03,640 --> 00:36:06,080
Speaker 2: It's in character for him, and it seems pretty documented.

677
00:36:06,120 --> 00:36:08,520
Speaker 2: I actually saw that one referenced more often than I

678
00:36:08,560 --> 00:36:10,799
Speaker 2: saw the one on one fight.

679
00:36:12,160 --> 00:36:15,839
Speaker 1: And even if it is like apocryphal story, I think

680
00:36:15,880 --> 00:36:19,200
Speaker 1: the fact that it even exists means that the spirit

681
00:36:19,600 --> 00:36:22,480
Speaker 1: was behind, you know, to storry, Yeah, totally.

682
00:36:24,000 --> 00:36:26,560
Speaker 2: After graduating, he goes back to Dublin for a minute

683
00:36:26,560 --> 00:36:28,799
Speaker 2: and he starts courting this lady named Florence. But then

684
00:36:28,840 --> 00:36:31,400
Speaker 2: she's like, you know what, what if instead I marry

685
00:36:31,440 --> 00:36:33,480
Speaker 2: this guy, Bram Stoker, the Dracula guy.

686
00:36:34,280 --> 00:36:34,840
Speaker 1: Oh wow?

687
00:36:35,080 --> 00:36:40,840
Speaker 2: So she does and hees yeah wow, and he's like,

688
00:36:40,840 --> 00:36:42,200
Speaker 2: all right, well, I'm gonna go back to London and

689
00:36:42,239 --> 00:36:45,160
Speaker 2: be a trust fund kid with my inheritance because either're like, oh,

690
00:36:45,160 --> 00:36:47,080
Speaker 2: they like don't have any money. He's like living off

691
00:36:47,120 --> 00:36:49,239
Speaker 2: of this no money that they have, so right of

692
00:36:49,280 --> 00:36:52,040
Speaker 2: course it's a it's a scale.

693
00:36:51,640 --> 00:36:54,920
Speaker 1: Thing tales old's time. Yeah, yeah, And.

694
00:36:54,920 --> 00:36:58,480
Speaker 2: So Oscar Wilde like grows up interested in political stuff,

695
00:36:58,560 --> 00:36:59,960
Speaker 2: but he doesn't quite know where he's gonna land for

696
00:37:00,120 --> 00:37:03,560
Speaker 2: a while. He's never reactionary. He just flirts between. We

697
00:37:03,640 --> 00:37:07,200
Speaker 2: starts off more interested in like democratic republicanism, and then

698
00:37:07,280 --> 00:37:09,560
Speaker 2: later is going to end up an anarchist. But his

699
00:37:09,640 --> 00:37:14,200
Speaker 2: mother's fiery politics were always with him. His early art

700
00:37:14,360 --> 00:37:17,799
Speaker 2: is pretty universally panned. He's a bit of a late

701
00:37:17,840 --> 00:37:21,160
Speaker 2: bloomer after college. His first two plays were both about

702
00:37:21,239 --> 00:37:25,120
Speaker 2: killing royalty. The first was called Vira and it's about

703
00:37:25,160 --> 00:37:27,479
Speaker 2: Russian nihilists trying to do an explosion on the Czar,

704
00:37:29,000 --> 00:37:31,600
Speaker 2: which is actually the first episode of this I ever recorded,

705
00:37:31,880 --> 00:37:34,120
Speaker 2: was Nihlist trying to do an explosion on the Czar.

706
00:37:35,200 --> 00:37:36,880
Speaker 1: All comes back around.

707
00:37:36,760 --> 00:37:40,560
Speaker 2: Exactly, and he puts out a self published book of

708
00:37:40,640 --> 00:37:42,399
Speaker 2: poetry just to give you an idea of where he's

709
00:37:42,400 --> 00:37:46,320
Speaker 2: at in his career and people are like, yeah, this

710
00:37:46,760 --> 00:37:50,040
Speaker 2: isn't it. And he actually gets some like plagiarism accusations.

711
00:37:50,120 --> 00:37:54,480
Speaker 2: And there's a satire magazine called Punch that's like a

712
00:37:54,600 --> 00:37:59,440
Speaker 2: very important literary satire magazine or whatever, and they wrote,

713
00:37:59,840 --> 00:38:05,160
Speaker 2: the poet is wild, but his poetry's tame ah, just

714
00:38:05,160 --> 00:38:06,360
Speaker 2: pretty clover. You know.

715
00:38:06,440 --> 00:38:10,400
Speaker 1: He really sounds like an it girl. Oh yeah, absolutely,

716
00:38:10,480 --> 00:38:12,680
Speaker 1: like what I would call him, kind of just iilly,

717
00:38:12,960 --> 00:38:15,640
Speaker 1: Like what exactly does he do? No one knows, and

718
00:38:15,719 --> 00:38:17,319
Speaker 1: yet everyone knows who he is.

719
00:38:17,680 --> 00:38:20,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, no, And I love it because he's like

720
00:38:20,080 --> 00:38:22,120
Speaker 2: an it girl who like does right?

721
00:38:22,880 --> 00:38:28,040
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, much girl, like take note, yeah yeah.

722
00:38:28,080 --> 00:38:34,000
Speaker 2: Much like you too can do right by consuming things

723
00:38:34,320 --> 00:38:38,080
Speaker 2: that are advertised to you regardless of what they are.

724
00:38:38,120 --> 00:38:43,400
Speaker 2: Just no discretion is necessary because I've handpicked. No, I

725
00:38:43,400 --> 00:38:45,359
Speaker 2: can't even make that joke. I have no idea what

726
00:38:45,360 --> 00:38:47,200
Speaker 2: fucking adds are about to play, but here they.

727
00:38:47,080 --> 00:38:48,880
Speaker 1: Are, be decadent.

728
00:39:00,080 --> 00:39:02,879
Speaker 2: And we're back. And so then it gets his big

729
00:39:02,920 --> 00:39:08,160
Speaker 2: break and it is weird. Theater is big business right

730
00:39:08,200 --> 00:39:12,560
Speaker 2: because they haven't invented Marvel movies yet. Thank you, thank you.

731
00:39:12,880 --> 00:39:13,799
Speaker 1: The scripted that joke.

732
00:39:15,640 --> 00:39:18,719
Speaker 2: I practiced it. I didn't practice reading. I'm not quite

733
00:39:18,719 --> 00:39:21,440
Speaker 2: as hard working as that's sketchy if I'm not as

734
00:39:21,480 --> 00:39:25,279
Speaker 2: hard working as Oscar Wild. So there's a theater duo,

735
00:39:25,640 --> 00:39:28,640
Speaker 2: Gilbert and Sullivan, and they put on a ton of

736
00:39:28,680 --> 00:39:31,440
Speaker 2: plays and they're like the very big deal, the Hollywood

737
00:39:31,440 --> 00:39:34,120
Speaker 2: before Hollywood, and they want to bring They had this

738
00:39:34,239 --> 00:39:37,920
Speaker 2: play that makes fun of the aesthetic movement, and they

739
00:39:37,960 --> 00:39:40,919
Speaker 2: want to put it on in America. But there's a problem.

740
00:39:41,560 --> 00:39:43,840
Speaker 2: No one in America has heard of the aesthetic movement.

741
00:39:45,000 --> 00:39:48,640
Speaker 2: So how do they solve this? They hire Oscar Wilde.

742
00:39:49,080 --> 00:39:54,040
Speaker 2: They sponsor Oscar Wild's speaking tour around America to talk

743
00:39:54,040 --> 00:39:57,640
Speaker 2: about the esthetic movement, so that America is primed to

744
00:39:57,719 --> 00:40:02,240
Speaker 2: watch a play called Patience making fun of the aesthetic movement.

745
00:40:02,920 --> 00:40:08,359
Speaker 1: Wow, Wow, Wow, that's like quite the pr campaign. I

746
00:40:08,400 --> 00:40:12,919
Speaker 1: know it doesn't worked, Yeah, I don't doubt it at all.

747
00:40:14,239 --> 00:40:18,960
Speaker 2: It's like my publisher ak Press sometimes sends books to

748
00:40:19,360 --> 00:40:21,920
Speaker 2: like Alex jonesy type people just to get them to

749
00:40:21,920 --> 00:40:24,120
Speaker 2: talk about on the show, being like how mad they

750
00:40:24,160 --> 00:40:30,920
Speaker 2: are about these books. So in eighteen eighty two, Oscar

751
00:40:30,960 --> 00:40:34,400
Speaker 2: wild heads to America. His tour doesn't just break even.

752
00:40:34,560 --> 00:40:37,239
Speaker 2: It is a huge success. It's supposed to be four

753
00:40:37,280 --> 00:40:40,160
Speaker 2: months long, it lasts a year, and he makes a

754
00:40:40,200 --> 00:40:43,520
Speaker 2: fuck ton of money doing it. He talks all over

755
00:40:43,560 --> 00:40:45,680
Speaker 2: the place. He starts off kind of like not this

756
00:40:45,719 --> 00:40:50,120
Speaker 2: is like where he learns really this craft. This you know,

757
00:40:50,160 --> 00:40:52,239
Speaker 2: he's been practicing, he's doing new parties and stuff, but

758
00:40:52,280 --> 00:40:54,359
Speaker 2: now he's a speaker and he gets really fucking good

759
00:40:54,360 --> 00:40:57,680
Speaker 2: at it, and he talks about how life imitates art

760
00:40:57,719 --> 00:40:59,520
Speaker 2: and not the other way around. And he's just like

761
00:40:59,600 --> 00:41:02,560
Speaker 2: clever as fuck, and people like him, they also mock him.

762
00:41:03,360 --> 00:41:07,440
Speaker 2: And speaking of things that are complicated about history that

763
00:41:07,480 --> 00:41:09,360
Speaker 2: I usually avoid trying to get into on this show.

764
00:41:09,800 --> 00:41:13,000
Speaker 2: Usually when I point out that the Irish people in America,

765
00:41:13,239 --> 00:41:15,359
Speaker 2: people are like, oh, the Irish weren't white, and that's

766
00:41:15,360 --> 00:41:19,839
Speaker 2: like kind of true, and like usually you're like, look, yeah,

767
00:41:19,960 --> 00:41:22,720
Speaker 2: the Irish weren't white in America, but they were treated

768
00:41:22,800 --> 00:41:24,400
Speaker 2: a hell of a lot better than like black and

769
00:41:24,440 --> 00:41:28,920
Speaker 2: indigenous people were the way that Oscar Wild was treated

770
00:41:29,760 --> 00:41:33,560
Speaker 2: when people made fun of him, they put on blackface

771
00:41:33,600 --> 00:41:34,000
Speaker 2: to do it.

772
00:41:34,920 --> 00:41:35,400
Speaker 1: Wow.

773
00:41:35,480 --> 00:41:40,239
Speaker 2: And the caricatures of Oscar Wild were monkeys. Wow. He

774
00:41:40,400 --> 00:41:43,880
Speaker 2: was not white in America. Wow.

775
00:41:44,280 --> 00:41:46,719
Speaker 1: That is so strange. I know.

776
00:41:46,960 --> 00:41:49,319
Speaker 2: It caught me by surprise because everything else I've ever

777
00:41:49,360 --> 00:41:55,840
Speaker 2: read has put like ethnic European whites into a category below,

778
00:41:56,520 --> 00:42:01,120
Speaker 2: but very distinctly below white below, like why Protestants and

779
00:42:01,160 --> 00:42:04,279
Speaker 2: stuff right way above people who are like, you know,

780
00:42:05,320 --> 00:42:06,080
Speaker 2: darker skinned.

781
00:42:06,280 --> 00:42:11,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like the first waves of immigrant hatred like

782
00:42:11,400 --> 00:42:13,560
Speaker 1: that kind of right, would you say?

783
00:42:13,600 --> 00:42:17,840
Speaker 2: So? Yeah, well it's a there's been like nativist as

784
00:42:18,040 --> 00:42:20,200
Speaker 2: you know, the people who hate immigrants. There's some of

785
00:42:20,200 --> 00:42:21,880
Speaker 2: that going back, at least as far as I've read

786
00:42:21,920 --> 00:42:24,160
Speaker 2: about like the eighteen forties and eighteen fifties and stuff,

787
00:42:24,160 --> 00:42:27,640
Speaker 2: and you get like the Whig Party and chure, sure, yeah,

788
00:42:27,680 --> 00:42:30,360
Speaker 2: but this is like when you yeah, you really have

789
00:42:30,480 --> 00:42:32,440
Speaker 2: like this is I think around the time you have

790
00:42:32,480 --> 00:42:36,800
Speaker 2: a lot more of Italians and Irish Catholics and stuff

791
00:42:36,800 --> 00:42:42,200
Speaker 2: coming into the country. And so he's going around and

792
00:42:42,239 --> 00:42:44,760
Speaker 2: he's talking about like art and beauty and interior design,

793
00:42:45,040 --> 00:42:46,960
Speaker 2: but he's also giving talks at the like he did

794
00:42:47,000 --> 00:42:49,319
Speaker 2: a talk at the bottom of a mine to talk

795
00:42:49,360 --> 00:42:54,200
Speaker 2: to the miners, and he brought Irish revolutionists around with

796
00:42:54,280 --> 00:42:57,400
Speaker 2: him to some of his talks, and he openly supported

797
00:42:57,520 --> 00:43:02,200
Speaker 2: armed insurrection and the assassination of English colonial forces in Ireland.

798
00:43:01,719 --> 00:43:05,040
Speaker 1: And he was talking about this on the tour. Yeah.

799
00:43:05,239 --> 00:43:07,520
Speaker 2: Wow, I'll get into one of the specific quotes about it,

800
00:43:07,520 --> 00:43:09,279
Speaker 2: because it's like an incident that I'll bring up later

801
00:43:10,040 --> 00:43:16,120
Speaker 2: that he's defending. And like most of the time apparently

802
00:43:16,160 --> 00:43:17,520
Speaker 2: when he like went and talked to the miners at

803
00:43:17,520 --> 00:43:19,520
Speaker 2: the bottom of the mind, he like tucked his hair

804
00:43:19,640 --> 00:43:23,320
Speaker 2: up and kind of didn't wear his trill clothes and stuff,

805
00:43:23,360 --> 00:43:28,480
Speaker 2: you know. But and so he comes back from this

806
00:43:28,600 --> 00:43:32,000
Speaker 2: year long tour and now he's bona fide famous, and

807
00:43:32,040 --> 00:43:34,040
Speaker 2: he's not just the weird guy who dresses weird and

808
00:43:34,080 --> 00:43:37,400
Speaker 2: his talk's clever. He's like, oh, he was a huge

809
00:43:37,400 --> 00:43:39,640
Speaker 2: deal in America, maybe he's a huge deal here too.

810
00:43:41,560 --> 00:43:44,040
Speaker 2: He comes to love the history of the Paris Commune,

811
00:43:44,360 --> 00:43:46,880
Speaker 2: and when he walks around Paris past some spots that

812
00:43:46,960 --> 00:43:51,480
Speaker 2: the commune yards had burned, he said, quote, there is

813
00:43:51,520 --> 00:43:54,440
Speaker 2: not there one little black and stone which is not

814
00:43:54,600 --> 00:43:58,640
Speaker 2: to me a chapter in the Bible of democracy. Wow.

815
00:43:59,280 --> 00:44:02,080
Speaker 2: And this kind of gets it. Like he writes constantly

816
00:44:02,120 --> 00:44:07,800
Speaker 2: about rebels being Christ's so he's clearly doing a Christian

817
00:44:08,200 --> 00:44:11,279
Speaker 2: version of these things. He's also there's like some word

818
00:44:11,320 --> 00:44:13,520
Speaker 2: antinomian that I had to look up for the purpose

819
00:44:13,560 --> 00:44:17,680
Speaker 2: of Whenever people talk about him, it's basically like, hey,

820
00:44:18,200 --> 00:44:20,920
Speaker 2: you don't have to like specifically do all the moral stuff.

821
00:44:20,920 --> 00:44:22,960
Speaker 2: The church says, it's fine, you can still be religious,

822
00:44:23,840 --> 00:44:25,200
Speaker 2: and that's like his thing.

823
00:44:26,080 --> 00:44:28,040
Speaker 1: And do you think, and maybe you'll get into this,

824
00:44:28,120 --> 00:44:30,360
Speaker 1: but do you think that he was an actual believer

825
00:44:30,840 --> 00:44:34,000
Speaker 1: in like the miracles of the Bible or more like,

826
00:44:34,080 --> 00:44:39,040
Speaker 1: here's a great hero's journey structure to talk about living people.

827
00:44:40,120 --> 00:44:42,399
Speaker 2: I don't know whether I would know specifically about his

828
00:44:42,480 --> 00:44:44,719
Speaker 2: belief in like sort of a literal interpretation of a

829
00:44:44,760 --> 00:44:48,800
Speaker 2: lot of the Bible stuff. But he's very actively especially

830
00:44:48,800 --> 00:44:50,400
Speaker 2: near the end of his life. But he's very actively

831
00:44:50,400 --> 00:44:55,839
Speaker 2: theologically engaged. He's very actively interested in what religion has

832
00:44:55,840 --> 00:44:57,080
Speaker 2: to say about the meaning of life.

833
00:44:57,360 --> 00:44:58,360
Speaker 1: Okay, Okay.

834
00:45:00,600 --> 00:45:04,600
Speaker 2: In eighteen eighty four, he marries a woman named Constance Lloyd,

835
00:45:05,080 --> 00:45:07,840
Speaker 2: and later he is gay as fuck, but he genuinely

836
00:45:07,880 --> 00:45:13,120
Speaker 2: cares for Constance at first. Okay, here's like the one. Okay, Well,

837
00:45:13,320 --> 00:45:16,200
Speaker 2: so they have two kids together, Cyril and Vivian, and

838
00:45:16,280 --> 00:45:18,719
Speaker 2: Vivian is spelled coolest shit is v y v y

839
00:45:18,920 --> 00:45:22,640
Speaker 2: a m cool really, and he is a devoted and

840
00:45:22,680 --> 00:45:25,680
Speaker 2: loving father by all accounts, including the accounts of his kids,

841
00:45:25,680 --> 00:45:28,160
Speaker 2: which are the accounts that I care the most about. Yes,

842
00:45:28,600 --> 00:45:31,440
Speaker 2: he was politically devoted to feminism, but he did this

843
00:45:31,440 --> 00:45:34,680
Speaker 2: whole thing where like after his wife had some kids,

844
00:45:34,719 --> 00:45:37,719
Speaker 2: he's like, oh, she's just not beautiful anymore. Mmmm hm,

845
00:45:38,320 --> 00:45:39,880
Speaker 2: and like fuck him for that. That is like my

846
00:45:39,920 --> 00:45:43,319
Speaker 2: biggest Yeah, there's one other mark that we'll get to later.

847
00:45:43,400 --> 00:45:46,239
Speaker 2: But I also suspect the fact that he's gay.

848
00:45:46,360 --> 00:45:48,560
Speaker 1: We at cool people to do cool stuff. Have a

849
00:45:48,719 --> 00:45:53,120
Speaker 1: three strikes in your out role and those are only two. Yeah, exactly,

850
00:45:53,239 --> 00:45:55,320
Speaker 1: so exactly right, We're good.

851
00:45:55,640 --> 00:45:57,920
Speaker 2: That's no. Actually, there's a lot of people who like

852
00:45:58,360 --> 00:46:01,200
Speaker 2: it's one strike and it's bad enough. That's fair.

853
00:46:01,400 --> 00:46:07,160
Speaker 1: That's completely fair. There there, you've burned down the field rule. Yeah,

854
00:46:08,719 --> 00:46:10,799
Speaker 1: total different degrees of strikes. Yeh.

855
00:46:11,880 --> 00:46:14,120
Speaker 2: Like his dad might be out for the one strike.

856
00:46:14,239 --> 00:46:18,279
Speaker 1: Oh his dad is out. His dad is perpetently suspended.

857
00:46:18,400 --> 00:46:24,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, like one strike was the weird orientalism, but

858
00:46:24,600 --> 00:46:26,200
Speaker 2: then there was the one anyway, so.

859
00:46:26,600 --> 00:46:27,839
Speaker 1: Yeah, we got it. Yeah.

860
00:46:28,600 --> 00:46:33,319
Speaker 2: Yeah, So Oscar Wilde he's doing all this stuff and

861
00:46:34,040 --> 00:46:38,480
Speaker 2: then he suddenly becomes gay as hell, anarchist, hell as hell,

862
00:46:38,640 --> 00:46:44,480
Speaker 2: prolific and successful, and just starts fucking taking off. It

863
00:46:44,600 --> 00:46:47,799
Speaker 2: is easy to be a b gay do crimes gay

864
00:46:47,840 --> 00:46:51,399
Speaker 2: person in Victorian England, because be gay counts as one

865
00:46:51,400 --> 00:46:55,560
Speaker 2: of those crimes. In eighteen eighty six, he is twenty

866
00:46:55,640 --> 00:46:58,120
Speaker 2: nine years old and he meets a seventeen year old

867
00:46:58,920 --> 00:47:01,160
Speaker 2: boy or manned and on how you want to think

868
00:47:01,160 --> 00:47:04,920
Speaker 2: about it, named Robert Ross. This is the other Like

869
00:47:05,560 --> 00:47:08,320
Speaker 2: some of the people he is sleeping with are perceived

870
00:47:08,360 --> 00:47:10,600
Speaker 2: as adults by the society, but would not be perceived

871
00:47:10,600 --> 00:47:15,640
Speaker 2: as adults by us. Robert Ross is already out as gay.

872
00:47:15,800 --> 00:47:18,799
Speaker 2: Every account I've read says that Robert Ross had read

873
00:47:18,840 --> 00:47:21,480
Speaker 2: a ton of Wild's poetry and was like, Oh, I'm

874
00:47:21,480 --> 00:47:25,439
Speaker 2: gonna go fuck that guy, and seduced Oscar Wild, which

875
00:47:25,560 --> 00:47:28,319
Speaker 2: is a convenient way to frame it, but I also

876
00:47:28,320 --> 00:47:32,520
Speaker 2: think it's true. So Robert and Oscar meet and they

877
00:47:32,520 --> 00:47:37,239
Speaker 2: start fucking, and Oscar Wild is like, oh shit, being

878
00:47:37,280 --> 00:47:41,640
Speaker 2: gay fucking rules. This is the best thing ever, and

879
00:47:41,680 --> 00:47:45,920
Speaker 2: he just his career just takes off. He starts producing

880
00:47:46,040 --> 00:47:49,360
Speaker 2: all of the work he's famous for. Him and Robbie

881
00:47:49,400 --> 00:47:53,600
Speaker 2: don't last super long, like romantically or sexually. They are

882
00:47:54,840 --> 00:47:58,960
Speaker 2: historically close friends. They are best friends and life partners

883
00:47:59,000 --> 00:48:02,400
Speaker 2: in so many ways. Like there's this joke I use

884
00:48:02,440 --> 00:48:05,240
Speaker 2: on this show where two women will like live together

885
00:48:05,280 --> 00:48:07,640
Speaker 2: and be obviously ganget buried next to each other, and

886
00:48:07,640 --> 00:48:10,520
Speaker 2: then society's like, hmm, we have no idea whether they

887
00:48:10,560 --> 00:48:11,400
Speaker 2: were into each.

888
00:48:11,239 --> 00:48:12,960
Speaker 1: Other an intimate friendship.

889
00:48:13,120 --> 00:48:18,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, but that's Oscar and Robbie. They did fuck,

890
00:48:18,840 --> 00:48:23,440
Speaker 2: but then they probably stopped fucking and they're fucking buried

891
00:48:23,440 --> 00:48:27,799
Speaker 2: next to each other. Like gosh, wow, this kid or man,

892
00:48:28,080 --> 00:48:30,400
Speaker 2: I want to look at it. Who you know Oscar

893
00:48:30,480 --> 00:48:33,040
Speaker 2: is sleeping with ends up the executor of Oscar Wilde's

894
00:48:33,080 --> 00:48:38,160
Speaker 2: will and and is with him as he dies. Spoiler alert,

895
00:48:38,239 --> 00:48:41,400
Speaker 2: Oscar wild dies. He's not a vampire? Where is he?

896
00:48:41,800 --> 00:48:44,279
Speaker 1: So let me ask a question real quick. Yes, so

897
00:48:46,040 --> 00:48:49,799
Speaker 1: at this time, this is the eighteen eighties where we're

898
00:48:49,800 --> 00:48:55,160
Speaker 1: at ish Yeah, okay, So are they categorizing themselves as

899
00:48:55,239 --> 00:48:58,640
Speaker 1: the identity of homosexual or are they sort of like

900
00:48:58,760 --> 00:49:01,640
Speaker 1: we do homosexual things right, Because this is kind of

901
00:49:01,800 --> 00:49:05,520
Speaker 1: time when that, I like, the identity category is forming, right.

902
00:49:05,719 --> 00:49:07,520
Speaker 2: I know that is actually something that's like yeah, so

903
00:49:07,600 --> 00:49:12,040
Speaker 2: homosexuality and heterosexuality come around this decade. I know a

904
00:49:12,040 --> 00:49:14,799
Speaker 2: little bit about how society is viewing it. I know

905
00:49:14,880 --> 00:49:17,240
Speaker 2: that they end up calling it the love that cannot

906
00:49:17,280 --> 00:49:21,440
Speaker 2: be named overall. Oscar Wild like uses like Greek love

907
00:49:21,680 --> 00:49:23,560
Speaker 2: as the way that he refers to it. He's like

908
00:49:23,600 --> 00:49:26,879
Speaker 2: obsessed with calling everything Greek if it means I want

909
00:49:26,880 --> 00:49:30,359
Speaker 2: to like touch that man's penis, right, you know, But.

910
00:49:30,280 --> 00:49:34,000
Speaker 1: That sounds like he wasn't saying I am a homosexual.

911
00:49:34,160 --> 00:49:36,799
Speaker 1: It's like this love is do you know what I'm

912
00:49:36,880 --> 00:49:37,440
Speaker 1: kind of saying, Like.

913
00:49:37,480 --> 00:49:39,960
Speaker 2: No, I know, and I'm sad that I don't know

914
00:49:40,000 --> 00:49:40,440
Speaker 2: the answer.

915
00:49:40,880 --> 00:49:41,640
Speaker 1: Well, that's all right.

916
00:49:41,920 --> 00:49:44,400
Speaker 2: My instinct is that a little bit of is like

917
00:49:44,480 --> 00:49:46,600
Speaker 2: I do this Greek love thing rather than like I

918
00:49:46,640 --> 00:49:47,279
Speaker 2: am a gay man.

919
00:49:47,600 --> 00:49:50,279
Speaker 1: I think that would track with sort of the culture too.

920
00:49:50,360 --> 00:49:51,680
Speaker 1: It was like almost there.

921
00:49:52,440 --> 00:49:56,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's that's my impression. Someone sure, someone knows.

922
00:49:56,800 --> 00:49:57,120
Speaker 1: Yes.

923
00:49:57,920 --> 00:49:59,480
Speaker 2: One thing that I kind of find interesting is that

924
00:49:59,480 --> 00:50:01,799
Speaker 2: I feel like it's some ways they like queered friendship

925
00:50:02,040 --> 00:50:05,680
Speaker 2: by having this friendship that was theoretically not romantic or sexual,

926
00:50:05,719 --> 00:50:07,640
Speaker 2: but it was absolutely a partnership, but was also too

927
00:50:07,719 --> 00:50:09,759
Speaker 2: gay man. You know, it's like it's really interesting to me.

928
00:50:10,000 --> 00:50:15,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's fair like Emma Goldman, but like before totally.

929
00:50:15,560 --> 00:50:17,439
Speaker 2: Although Ima Goldman is a really good quote about Oscar

930
00:50:17,480 --> 00:50:18,120
Speaker 2: Wild that we'll get to.

931
00:50:18,280 --> 00:50:20,080
Speaker 1: Okay, all right, all right, I'll over to that.

932
00:50:20,840 --> 00:50:23,400
Speaker 2: Overall, I would say that twenty nine year olds probably

933
00:50:23,440 --> 00:50:29,239
Speaker 2: shouldn't fuck seventeen year olds, right, especially not their fans. Well,

934
00:50:29,400 --> 00:50:31,040
Speaker 2: I don't even really have to do it, especially there.

935
00:50:31,120 --> 00:50:33,000
Speaker 2: If you're twenty nine, don't fuck a seventeen year old.

936
00:50:33,719 --> 00:50:36,800
Speaker 2: The reason that I don't want to like commat Oscar

937
00:50:36,880 --> 00:50:39,759
Speaker 2: Wild is that no one would have baded an eye

938
00:50:39,800 --> 00:50:43,000
Speaker 2: if they had been straight. The age of consent in

939
00:50:43,040 --> 00:50:45,879
Speaker 2: England at this time, just the year prior, had been

940
00:50:46,000 --> 00:50:50,040
Speaker 2: raised to sixteen from thirteen, and it had only been

941
00:50:50,120 --> 00:50:55,280
Speaker 2: raised to thirteen a decade before that. It's not good,

942
00:50:56,200 --> 00:50:59,680
Speaker 2: but it's not the way that it will be twisted

943
00:50:59,680 --> 00:51:02,040
Speaker 2: and you to describe like the corruption of youth and

944
00:51:02,080 --> 00:51:04,719
Speaker 2: groomer and all of these things, right right, It is

945
00:51:04,719 --> 00:51:08,359
Speaker 2: a very The age gap in their relationship is very

946
00:51:08,640 --> 00:51:12,440
Speaker 2: very normal. Only their sexuality is not normal.

947
00:51:13,120 --> 00:51:15,279
Speaker 1: Well, and even I mean even more so. It's like

948
00:51:15,440 --> 00:51:19,280
Speaker 1: the category of what a teenager is doesn't even exist

949
00:51:19,280 --> 00:51:21,760
Speaker 1: at this point because it's like you're either a child

950
00:51:22,160 --> 00:51:24,640
Speaker 1: or an adult, because you're going to mean, I think

951
00:51:24,760 --> 00:51:29,040
Speaker 1: rich people are different because they had the ability to

952
00:51:29,320 --> 00:51:33,120
Speaker 1: kind of luxuriate in that period and use that as

953
00:51:33,160 --> 00:51:35,479
Speaker 1: a time of growth and change. But it really wasn't

954
00:51:35,560 --> 00:51:39,120
Speaker 1: until like the nineteen twenties, after all of the labor

955
00:51:39,200 --> 00:51:43,920
Speaker 1: laws had, you know, taken children from like horrible labor

956
00:51:43,920 --> 00:51:46,680
Speaker 1: conditions and given them an opportunity to like live in

957
00:51:46,760 --> 00:51:49,439
Speaker 1: this in between period. But like a seventeen year old

958
00:51:49,480 --> 00:51:53,399
Speaker 1: then had the same type of agency than an adulthood. Again,

959
00:51:53,520 --> 00:51:56,719
Speaker 1: not to say it's good, but it is, like it's

960
00:51:56,840 --> 00:52:00,279
Speaker 1: just a completely and utterly different way of thinking of

961
00:52:00,760 --> 00:52:03,880
Speaker 1: age and what a person when a person has grown

962
00:52:03,920 --> 00:52:04,480
Speaker 1: and when they're not.

963
00:52:04,719 --> 00:52:07,440
Speaker 2: So yeahh no, that's so interesting to me. It makes

964
00:52:07,480 --> 00:52:12,360
Speaker 2: so much sense. The I love understanding how different people

965
00:52:12,400 --> 00:52:15,480
Speaker 2: in history thought of things so completely and fundamentally differently,

966
00:52:15,560 --> 00:52:17,960
Speaker 2: and how it impacts the way that we do and

967
00:52:18,000 --> 00:52:20,799
Speaker 2: don't see ourselves in their like actions and things like that.

968
00:52:20,880 --> 00:52:22,040
Speaker 2: So I love that part of it.

969
00:52:22,080 --> 00:52:23,200
Speaker 1: Thank you, Yeah, me too.

970
00:52:23,880 --> 00:52:28,000
Speaker 2: So in eighteen eighty seven, Oscar Wilde was almost alone

971
00:52:28,040 --> 00:52:31,920
Speaker 2: among the London literary crowd when he signed George Bernard

972
00:52:31,960 --> 00:52:35,160
Speaker 2: Shaw's a Socialist play Right, signed a petition for the

973
00:52:35,200 --> 00:52:38,200
Speaker 2: reprieve of the Chicago Anarchists, the Haymarket Anarchists the very

974
00:52:38,200 --> 00:52:42,160
Speaker 2: first episode of this podcast, and who are soon to

975
00:52:42,200 --> 00:52:46,200
Speaker 2: become the Haymarket Martyrs. Soon he goes to further side

976
00:52:46,200 --> 00:52:49,880
Speaker 2: with the anarchist directly, but the same year, eighteen eighty seven,

977
00:52:50,040 --> 00:52:54,960
Speaker 2: he becomes editor of Lady World magazine, which he renamed

978
00:52:55,120 --> 00:52:59,320
Speaker 2: Women's World. Okay, and then he set about doing you know,

979
00:52:59,600 --> 00:53:02,719
Speaker 2: teen Vogue, like got woke as fuck about like a

980
00:53:02,760 --> 00:53:06,919
Speaker 2: decade ago. Yes, Oscar Wilde did that to Women's World.

981
00:53:07,640 --> 00:53:08,640
Speaker 1: Nice. Wow.

982
00:53:08,920 --> 00:53:12,120
Speaker 2: He took a fashion in arts magazine and then added

983
00:53:12,160 --> 00:53:15,160
Speaker 2: feminism and culture and politics while still talking about fashion

984
00:53:15,160 --> 00:53:15,600
Speaker 2: and arts.

985
00:53:16,280 --> 00:53:16,760
Speaker 1: Brilliant.

986
00:53:17,200 --> 00:53:19,880
Speaker 2: And this is why when you're like, oh, yeah, he

987
00:53:20,040 --> 00:53:23,240
Speaker 2: just just art for art's sake, and you're like yeah,

988
00:53:23,280 --> 00:53:27,759
Speaker 2: and also completely fundamentally changed society for art's sake.

989
00:53:28,239 --> 00:53:32,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, you know, yeah, wow. I love that.

990
00:53:33,520 --> 00:53:35,960
Speaker 2: He's still a mamma's boy. He publishes his mother, I mean,

991
00:53:36,000 --> 00:53:38,600
Speaker 2: his mother's an amazing writer. He publishes his mother and

992
00:53:38,640 --> 00:53:41,359
Speaker 2: his wife in the magazine, which he ran for about

993
00:53:41,360 --> 00:53:44,799
Speaker 2: two years, and he is publishing a ton during this

994
00:53:44,880 --> 00:53:47,960
Speaker 2: time period, he's publishing kids' stories and plays and essays,

995
00:53:48,880 --> 00:53:52,680
Speaker 2: and by eighteen ninety he is openly against the idea

996
00:53:52,719 --> 00:53:56,680
Speaker 2: of government. His first kind of writing about this is

997
00:53:57,600 --> 00:54:01,000
Speaker 2: inspired by Taoism rather than being inspired fired specifically by

998
00:54:01,000 --> 00:54:05,520
Speaker 2: the ideological Western anarchist tradition. He is writing a review

999
00:54:05,560 --> 00:54:07,520
Speaker 2: of a book of Daoist philosophy from like two thousand

1000
00:54:07,560 --> 00:54:10,000
Speaker 2: years ago, but it was like a new edition or

1001
00:54:10,160 --> 00:54:12,839
Speaker 2: the first in English or something. It's eighteen ninety when

1002
00:54:12,840 --> 00:54:15,680
Speaker 2: he writes, all modes of government are wrong. They are

1003
00:54:15,760 --> 00:54:19,279
Speaker 2: unscientific because they seek to alter the natural environment of man.

1004
00:54:19,640 --> 00:54:22,759
Speaker 2: They are immoral because by interfering with the individual, they

1005
00:54:22,800 --> 00:54:26,759
Speaker 2: produce the most aggressive forms of egotism. And he said

1006
00:54:26,800 --> 00:54:29,439
Speaker 2: that governments, by trying to coerce people into being good,

1007
00:54:29,680 --> 00:54:31,600
Speaker 2: destroy the natural goodness of man.

1008
00:54:33,239 --> 00:54:37,279
Speaker 1: Wow in eighteen degree, Yeah was that? I said? I

1009
00:54:37,320 --> 00:54:38,120
Speaker 1: don't disagree?

1010
00:54:38,239 --> 00:54:41,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, exactly. Like it's like the way he the

1011
00:54:41,840 --> 00:54:44,880
Speaker 2: nuance with which he talked about this stuff is like

1012
00:54:45,000 --> 00:54:47,160
Speaker 2: revelatory now, you know.

1013
00:54:47,280 --> 00:54:49,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, oh yeah.

1014
00:54:49,440 --> 00:54:51,440
Speaker 2: In eighteen ninety one he published one of his most

1015
00:54:51,440 --> 00:54:53,759
Speaker 2: famous essays. When it was famous at the time too right.

1016
00:54:54,160 --> 00:54:57,279
Speaker 2: It's called the Soul of Man under Socialism, and it

1017
00:54:57,360 --> 00:55:00,160
Speaker 2: is fucking interesting as hell. It is translated all over

1018
00:55:00,200 --> 00:55:03,280
Speaker 2: the place, and in it he basically says the point

1019
00:55:03,320 --> 00:55:06,040
Speaker 2: isn't to make art in the service of socialism. The

1020
00:55:06,080 --> 00:55:08,640
Speaker 2: point is to make socialism in the service of art.

1021
00:55:09,920 --> 00:55:14,040
Speaker 2: He says that quote, the community will supply the useful things,

1022
00:55:14,160 --> 00:55:17,160
Speaker 2: and the beautiful things will be made by the individual.

1023
00:55:17,600 --> 00:55:19,719
Speaker 2: It is the only possible way by which we can

1024
00:55:19,760 --> 00:55:25,120
Speaker 2: get either the one or the other. And the socialists

1025
00:55:25,120 --> 00:55:27,600
Speaker 2: at the time are trying to be all like pithy

1026
00:55:27,719 --> 00:55:31,000
Speaker 2: and dismissive of this essay, and it's a very popular

1027
00:55:31,080 --> 00:55:33,360
Speaker 2: essay and they're a little bit upset by this, and

1028
00:55:33,400 --> 00:55:35,080
Speaker 2: they're like, woll this essay says a lot, but it

1029
00:55:35,120 --> 00:55:39,040
Speaker 2: says nothing about socialism because it wasn't their style of socialism.

1030
00:55:39,440 --> 00:55:43,840
Speaker 2: It didn't use the word anarchism. It was absolutely anarchism

1031
00:55:43,920 --> 00:55:47,799
Speaker 2: and was respected and understood as much by socialists who

1032
00:55:47,800 --> 00:55:51,400
Speaker 2: are familiar with anarchism at the time. And it's funny

1033
00:55:51,440 --> 00:55:53,799
Speaker 2: because like one hundred years later, commentators are still like

1034
00:55:53,840 --> 00:55:57,719
Speaker 2: individualism and socialism. This is a man of paradox, you know,

1035
00:56:00,000 --> 00:56:05,080
Speaker 2: all right, guys, come on, I believe in you. And

1036
00:56:05,120 --> 00:56:10,640
Speaker 2: he describes an aristocratic socialism. I'm using that phrasing. Okay,

1037
00:56:11,200 --> 00:56:14,160
Speaker 2: we all get to have nice things is basically the argument.

1038
00:56:14,239 --> 00:56:17,080
Speaker 2: He talks about, how when burglars steal from the rich,

1039
00:56:17,120 --> 00:56:19,520
Speaker 2: it's fine because they have enough stuff. It's fine whatever,

1040
00:56:20,000 --> 00:56:22,200
Speaker 2: and no, how you should have nice stuff, but if

1041
00:56:22,239 --> 00:56:24,200
Speaker 2: you're not actually using your nice stuff, then you should

1042
00:56:24,200 --> 00:56:27,759
Speaker 2: give it away to someone who will. Yeah, and he says,

1043
00:56:27,840 --> 00:56:32,040
Speaker 2: quote man will kill himself by overwork in order to

1044
00:56:32,040 --> 00:56:36,360
Speaker 2: secure property, and really, considering the enormous advantages that property brings,

1045
00:56:36,440 --> 00:56:40,040
Speaker 2: one is hardly surprised. One's regret is that society should

1046
00:56:40,040 --> 00:56:42,439
Speaker 2: be constructed on such a basis that man has been

1047
00:56:42,480 --> 00:56:45,520
Speaker 2: forced into a groove in which he cannot freely develop

1048
00:56:45,600 --> 00:56:49,320
Speaker 2: what is wonderful, fascinating and delightful in him, in which

1049
00:56:49,400 --> 00:56:52,840
Speaker 2: in fact, he misses the true pleasure and joy of living.

1050
00:56:53,800 --> 00:56:55,680
Speaker 1: He's like a gay tyler dirdam.

1051
00:56:56,200 --> 00:57:02,279
Speaker 2: He is, Oh God, does that mean like right wing

1052
00:57:02,360 --> 00:57:04,239
Speaker 2: edge lords are going to take this gay leftist and

1053
00:57:04,320 --> 00:57:09,960
Speaker 2: just like turn them into some horrible Probably probably, I

1054
00:57:09,960 --> 00:57:12,919
Speaker 2: hope Elon must don't listen to this shit. Elon must

1055
00:57:12,920 --> 00:57:18,160
Speaker 2: give away everything you own. Okay, you can keep one

1056
00:57:19,480 --> 00:57:25,320
Speaker 2: cyber truck and uh, that's it does even one cyber

1057
00:57:25,320 --> 00:57:28,120
Speaker 2: truck man. If you can't do it, you're doing it wrong.

1058
00:57:30,280 --> 00:57:33,400
Speaker 2: So the most famous line, the most quoted line in

1059
00:57:33,400 --> 00:57:35,200
Speaker 2: this at least in the circles that I run in,

1060
00:57:35,560 --> 00:57:38,000
Speaker 2: is the form of government that is most suitable to

1061
00:57:38,040 --> 00:57:41,200
Speaker 2: the artist is no government at all. But he actually

1062
00:57:41,320 --> 00:57:43,320
Speaker 2: refers to how there should be a state. He uses

1063
00:57:43,360 --> 00:57:45,600
Speaker 2: the word state to describe the society that is like

1064
00:57:45,640 --> 00:57:47,600
Speaker 2: providing the stuff. And then but the thing it shouldn't

1065
00:57:47,600 --> 00:57:51,560
Speaker 2: do is govern it. And everyone just uses words. However,

1066
00:57:51,760 --> 00:57:56,480
Speaker 2: right right, and around this time, he probably should have

1067
00:57:56,480 --> 00:58:00,760
Speaker 2: gone to France because homosexuality was legal in France and

1068
00:58:00,840 --> 00:58:04,480
Speaker 2: the art and literary scene in France was predominantly anarchist

1069
00:58:04,480 --> 00:58:07,200
Speaker 2: at the time. It's like how punk in the nineteen

1070
00:58:07,200 --> 00:58:11,520
Speaker 2: eighties and nineteen nineties was like anarchists, right, as like

1071
00:58:11,600 --> 00:58:15,520
Speaker 2: the dominant strain that was the eighteen eighties and eighteen

1072
00:58:15,600 --> 00:58:22,440
Speaker 2: nineties literary and arts scene in Paris. Instead, he stuck

1073
00:58:22,480 --> 00:58:24,760
Speaker 2: around London, where neither of the things that he liked

1074
00:58:24,760 --> 00:58:27,800
Speaker 2: doing were particularly popular, and eventually it's going to kill him.

1075
00:58:29,280 --> 00:58:32,320
Speaker 2: He starts making statements about his political position. I bring

1076
00:58:32,360 --> 00:58:36,080
Speaker 2: all this up because people like want I'm claiming this

1077
00:58:36,160 --> 00:58:37,880
Speaker 2: man for anarchism, and I want to show my work.

1078
00:58:38,200 --> 00:58:39,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, show your work.

1079
00:58:39,680 --> 00:58:42,040
Speaker 2: In eighteen ninety three, he wrote, in the past, I

1080
00:58:42,120 --> 00:58:43,880
Speaker 2: was a poet and a tyrant. Now I am an

1081
00:58:43,920 --> 00:58:47,040
Speaker 2: artist and an anarchist. In eighteen ninety four, he told

1082
00:58:47,040 --> 00:58:49,760
Speaker 2: a journalist from the theater, we are all of us

1083
00:58:49,800 --> 00:58:52,480
Speaker 2: more or less socialists. Nowadays our system of government is

1084
00:58:52,520 --> 00:58:54,800
Speaker 2: largely socialistic. What is the House of Comments but a

1085
00:58:54,840 --> 00:58:57,920
Speaker 2: socialistic assembly. I am rather more than a socialist. I

1086
00:58:57,920 --> 00:59:01,640
Speaker 2: am something of an anarchist. I believe and like people

1087
00:59:01,640 --> 00:59:04,480
Speaker 2: are then and now like. But what does he believe in?

1088
00:59:04,720 --> 00:59:11,800
Speaker 2: It's impossible to know because he doesn't put this stuff

1089
00:59:12,600 --> 00:59:17,560
Speaker 2: directly and obliquely in the art he makes. And I

1090
00:59:17,600 --> 00:59:20,360
Speaker 2: think that that's a conscious choice, but not like afraid

1091
00:59:20,480 --> 00:59:24,240
Speaker 2: to do it. He has a different way of working.

1092
00:59:24,360 --> 00:59:27,280
Speaker 1: Well, And it seems like, you know, it's not that

1093
00:59:27,360 --> 00:59:31,439
Speaker 1: he kept them separate, but he wanted politics to serve art,

1094
00:59:31,520 --> 00:59:34,440
Speaker 1: and so he didn't want to necessarily make art about politics, right.

1095
00:59:34,480 --> 00:59:36,600
Speaker 1: He wanted to be able to just make the art

1096
00:59:36,640 --> 00:59:39,040
Speaker 1: and have the political structure support that.

1097
00:59:39,280 --> 00:59:44,120
Speaker 2: Create exactly, yeah, exactly. At this point, he puts out

1098
00:59:44,120 --> 00:59:47,080
Speaker 2: his only novel, The Picture of Dorian Gray. The first

1099
00:59:47,120 --> 00:59:49,800
Speaker 2: version comes out serialized in eighteen ninety, and then a

1100
00:59:49,840 --> 00:59:52,960
Speaker 2: slightly more sanitized version is published on its own, and

1101
00:59:53,040 --> 00:59:56,080
Speaker 2: everyone like knows it's a bit gay, like that's what's

1102
00:59:56,320 --> 01:00:01,160
Speaker 2: sanitized about it with each release. His most famous plays

1103
01:00:01,200 --> 01:00:03,520
Speaker 2: come out in the eighteen nineties, especially the Importance of

1104
01:00:03,520 --> 01:00:09,000
Speaker 2: Being Earnest, and then after Pride Cometh the Fall and

1105
01:00:09,120 --> 01:00:12,880
Speaker 2: somehow I'm going to tie it back into boxing and

1106
01:00:12,920 --> 01:00:17,439
Speaker 2: We'll talk about it on Wednesday. That's part one.

1107
01:00:18,040 --> 01:00:21,800
Speaker 1: I loved it. That was great. I'm really enjoying this.

1108
01:00:22,480 --> 01:00:25,200
Speaker 1: I just had no idea such a shallow, such a

1109
01:00:25,240 --> 01:00:28,720
Speaker 1: shallow vision I had of a man I love so much.

1110
01:00:29,240 --> 01:00:31,120
Speaker 2: No, I know, I picked this one because I've been like,

1111
01:00:31,440 --> 01:00:33,640
Speaker 2: actually was a little bit like I gotta be done

1112
01:00:33,640 --> 01:00:35,520
Speaker 2: doing Irish ship for a while. Especially, I was like,

1113
01:00:35,560 --> 01:00:37,680
Speaker 2: I gotta be done doing Irish Catholic ship for a while,

1114
01:00:38,160 --> 01:00:39,840
Speaker 2: you know. But I was like, oh, I want to

1115
01:00:39,880 --> 01:00:42,080
Speaker 2: do a you know, I want to do a moral panic.

1116
01:00:42,240 --> 01:00:44,640
Speaker 2: And Oscar Wild's been like on my to do list

1117
01:00:44,720 --> 01:00:47,120
Speaker 2: for a while and then I think the title of

1118
01:00:47,160 --> 01:00:49,160
Speaker 2: this is going to be basically like Oscar Wild, the

1119
01:00:49,200 --> 01:00:51,680
Speaker 2: story that's more important than I than even I realized,

1120
01:00:52,240 --> 01:00:52,520
Speaker 2: you know.

1121
01:00:52,600 --> 01:00:54,040
Speaker 1: More important than being earnest.

1122
01:00:54,600 --> 01:01:01,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, totally. So if people want to hear your takes

1123
01:01:01,120 --> 01:01:04,240
Speaker 2: on moral panics and urban legends, where can they do that?

1124
01:01:04,920 --> 01:01:09,040
Speaker 1: You can find American Hysteria wherever you get your podcasts,

1125
01:01:09,440 --> 01:01:12,880
Speaker 1: as we say in the industry, Yeah, I guess we're

1126
01:01:12,920 --> 01:01:16,360
Speaker 1: on Instagram American Hysteria podcast. If you want to do.

1127
01:01:16,320 --> 01:01:22,560
Speaker 2: That, cool, you can watch me. I take. I write

1128
01:01:22,560 --> 01:01:24,640
Speaker 2: a substack and pretty much every week I find a

1129
01:01:24,640 --> 01:01:27,480
Speaker 2: weird way to tie into thing that I'm deep diving

1130
01:01:27,600 --> 01:01:29,960
Speaker 2: into whatever else I write, because it's like all I'm

1131
01:01:30,000 --> 01:01:34,880
Speaker 2: thinking about. I wrote a piece on substack a couple

1132
01:01:34,920 --> 01:01:37,560
Speaker 2: of weeks ago. As you hear this that you can

1133
01:01:38,040 --> 01:01:42,560
Speaker 2: read more about Oscar Wild. No, it's not more about

1134
01:01:42,560 --> 01:01:44,760
Speaker 2: Oscar Wild. You're going to get more out of the podcast.

1135
01:01:45,120 --> 01:01:47,600
Speaker 2: Just go, I'm on substack. Go there. Half of it's

1136
01:01:47,640 --> 01:01:54,240
Speaker 2: free and whatever, Sophie, what do you got to plug at.

1137
01:01:53,240 --> 01:01:57,120
Speaker 1: Our cool Zone Media and cool zonemedia dot com.

1138
01:01:57,880 --> 01:02:00,880
Speaker 2: All right, I'll see you off. I almost said Thursday,

1139
01:02:00,880 --> 01:02:02,560
Speaker 2: but I don't know why, Oh, because that's the day

1140
01:02:02,600 --> 01:02:10,480
Speaker 2: we record. I'll see you Wednesday. Cool People Who Did

1141
01:02:10,520 --> 01:02:13,040
Speaker 2: Cool Stuff is a production of cool Zone Media.

1142
01:02:13,160 --> 01:02:16,040
Speaker 1: For more podcasts on cool Zone Media, visit our website

1143
01:02:16,160 --> 01:02:19,840
Speaker 1: Coolzonemedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,

1144
01:02:19,880 --> 01:02:22,720
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.