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Speaker 1: Mother Knows Death, starring Nicole and Jemmy and Maria qk.

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Speaker 2: Hi.

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Speaker 3: Everyone welcome The Mother Knows Death. Today's episode is going

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Speaker 3: to be very heavy and just a little bit different

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Speaker 3: than any kind of episode we've really ever done here

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Speaker 3: on Mother Knows Death. October is Domestic Violence Awareness Month,

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Speaker 3: and we're going to talk to our friend Jim Schmidt.

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Speaker 3: Jim is a former firefighter who now travels the country

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Speaker 3: educating first responders to help both recognize and prevent domestic violence.

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Speaker 3: You may have seen Jim in the news over the

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Speaker 3: past few years because his daughter, Gabby Petito, was murdered

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Speaker 3: by her fiance, Brian Laundry. Jim is a co founder

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Speaker 3: of the Gabby Petito Foundation. And today we're not only

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Speaker 3: going to talk to Jim about Gabby's tragic ending, but

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Speaker 3: also what their family went through over the past few

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Speaker 3: years and what he's been going through. And we're hoping

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Speaker 3: that we could just bring some awareness to domestic violence today.

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Speaker 3: So before we get started today with Jim's interview, we're

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Speaker 3: going to give you a brief overview of Gabby's story.

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Speaker 3: For those of you who are unfamiliar.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, because you know, sometimes when we have guests on

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Speaker 2: we have to interrupt them to clarify some details, and

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Speaker 2: we want them to just be able to speak freely

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Speaker 2: and not have to keep interrupting what he has to say.

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Speaker 2: So will this give you the basics of this case?

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Speaker 2: So basic background is Gabby was a travel vlogger in

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Speaker 2: her early twenties from New York, which she had been

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Speaker 2: living with her fiance, Brian Laundry, at his parents' home

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Speaker 2: in Florida. They had met in high school only dated

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Speaker 2: for about a year before getting engaged, so they were

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Speaker 2: really young in their early twenties. So together they went

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Speaker 2: around in a white camper van and documented their travels

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Speaker 2: for social media. And this case kind of goes back

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Speaker 2: to twenty twenty one when everything went downhill. So in

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Speaker 2: July of twenty twenty one, Gabby and Brian said off

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Speaker 2: on a trip out west and we're planning to reach

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Speaker 2: Oregon by that October. However, within a couple of weeks

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Speaker 2: it started to take a dark turn when Brian was

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Speaker 2: seen slapping Gabby in moab Utah and they got pulled

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Speaker 2: over by police.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so that's something that we're definitely going to talk

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Speaker 3: to Jim about because that's part of his mission right

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Speaker 3: now is to try to educate people on how to

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Speaker 3: pick up signs of domestic violence because there, of course,

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Speaker 3: there are questions that if someone had intervened at that time,

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Speaker 3: that Gabby may still be alive today. So it's really

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Speaker 3: important for people who are working as first responders in

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Speaker 3: these situations that they're able to recognize the patterns well.

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Speaker 2: And I guess this case is especially scary because you know,

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Speaker 2: she's far away from her family. She had been keeping

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Speaker 2: in touch, but of course all of a sudden, you know, communication,

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Speaker 2: I wouldn't say it fully cut off, but at some

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Speaker 2: point they had a FaceTime with her, and then it

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Speaker 2: all went to text messaging, which at some point they

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Speaker 2: didn't even believe it was her texting them anymore. And

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Speaker 2: just there was all this documentation after her body was

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Speaker 2: discovered a couple weeks later, that this abuse had been

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Speaker 2: going on. There's the incident in Moab where a couple

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Speaker 2: had seen Brian slapping her and called police and they

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Speaker 2: pulled them over, and then they determined that Gabby was

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Speaker 2: the aggressor, which is ridiculous because if you watch the

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Speaker 2: bodycam footage, it's unbelievable what goes down. And then they

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Speaker 2: had another incident in Wyoming where they were at a

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Speaker 2: Text Mex restaurant and they were also getting in a fight.

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Speaker 2: He was being very agitated, being very aggressive towards the

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Speaker 2: staff as well, and there were reports of that going around.

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Speaker 2: So you just have to think if they were acting

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Speaker 2: like this in public, and he was treating her like

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Speaker 2: this in front of other people, what was going on

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Speaker 2: behind the scenes.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and these are all questions that we'll talk to

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Speaker 3: Jim about for sure. I just wanted to give you

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Speaker 3: guys a brief overview of what just the basic story

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Speaker 3: that goes behind this and now his mission with their

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Speaker 3: entire family and how they're trying to bring awareness and

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Speaker 3: of course this being you know, just because you're not

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Speaker 3: in a relationship that may involve domestic abuse. As Maria

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Speaker 3: was just saying, people eating at a restaurant were witnessing it,

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Speaker 3: and sometimes it's just easier to turn your head the

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Speaker 3: other way and to ignore it. And these people actually

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Speaker 3: went above and beyond and called police, which a lot

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Speaker 3: of people would just blow off and ignore, and it

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Speaker 3: still didn't help her. So we're in twenty twenty five,

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Speaker 3: we're still not anywhere near where we should be as

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Speaker 3: far as recognizing this and getting people the help that

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Speaker 3: they need. So we hope after speaking with Jim today

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Speaker 3: that we could bring more awareness to it and possibly

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Speaker 3: make things better for other victims in the future. Hi, Jim,

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Speaker 3: Welcome The Mother Knows Death.

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Speaker 1: Hey, thank you very much for having me. It's an

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Speaker 1: honor to be here with you all.

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Speaker 3: It's so great to talk to you. Finally, I just

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Speaker 3: want to share your story with everyone. So before we

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Speaker 3: get into the story, let's talk about a little bit,

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Speaker 3: like what your life was like before all of this happened.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely, I mean we were just living a regular

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Speaker 1: life like so many people. My wife worked as a

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Speaker 1: teacher's assistant in our in our local school. I was

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Speaker 1: working in the fire service. I was a firefighter EMT

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Speaker 1: for well over twenty years, and you know, just a

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Speaker 1: normal life like anybody else. And you know, working in

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Speaker 1: that field, you know, you're exposed to a lot of things,

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Speaker 1: and you see things, but typically, you know, you just

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Speaker 1: think it's the people you're responding to that it happens

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Speaker 1: to like, nothing like this is ever going to happen

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Speaker 1: to you until you're you're kind of thrown into it.

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Speaker 1: So it was just raising our kids and living life

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Speaker 1: like everybody does each day.

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Speaker 3: So you're married to Gabby's mom. Yeah, and when did

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Speaker 3: you first meet Gabby?

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Speaker 1: Oh gosh, she was two, just turning three years old.

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Speaker 1: So my wife and I met as a EMTs together.

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Speaker 1: We started dating and she was very protective of Gabby,

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Speaker 1: you know, rightfully so. And finally I got a chance

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Speaker 1: to meet her and she was just little, bright eyed,

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Speaker 1: blue blue eyes, you know, blonde hair and pigtails, and

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Speaker 1: she was just full of life. And Nicole was an

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Speaker 1: amazing mom, and you know, she was just an amazing kid.

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Speaker 1: And it really, uh really made me want to, you know,

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Speaker 1: marry my wife. You know initially, you know a lot

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Speaker 1: of people at a young age would be scared of

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Speaker 1: like an instant family, but not me. I just I

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Speaker 1: saw how she was and how amazing they were, and

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Speaker 1: you know, I just wanted that to be a part

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Speaker 1: of that life.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. That's it's interesting that you say that because with Maria,

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Speaker 3: I was how were you when we met?

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Speaker 2: Ape I was thirteen?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, And a lot of men don't realize that

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Speaker 3: you have to you can't just marry the mom. You

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Speaker 3: have to marry into a family.

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Speaker 1: Basically, yeah, it's you know, her dad and stepbomb or

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Speaker 1: bonus mom. I hate using the words, you know, so

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Speaker 1: I do too.

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Speaker 3: That's why I hate them too.

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Speaker 1: And you know they're very much a part of her

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Speaker 1: life all throughout her life too. And you know, it

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Speaker 1: was always making sure there was that balance. I never

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Speaker 1: tried to overstep and be more than I should have been.

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Speaker 1: I always treated her as if she was my own daughter,

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Speaker 1: even though biologically she wasn't. And you know, it wasn't

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Speaker 1: always perfect. It never is, but at the end of

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Speaker 1: the day, the everything that was done was done for

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Speaker 1: her because seemed to many times that when the parents

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Speaker 1: don't get along, it's the children who suffer. And so

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Speaker 1: it was always about her and we could agree to

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Speaker 1: disagree sometimes on things with each other, but at the

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Speaker 1: end of the day, it was what's best for her.

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Speaker 1: I think that's something that a lot of people don't realize,

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Speaker 1: you know, when they get into relationships like that, or

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Speaker 1: the relationships don't work out.

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Speaker 2: Oh definitely.

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Speaker 3: So you and Nicole get married and then you had

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Speaker 3: more kids.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, we did. So we have three other kids together,

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Speaker 1: my son Thomas, he's twenty two, and then we have Maddie,

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Speaker 1: she's sixteen. And then we have our youngest one, our

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Speaker 1: little spark plug, Catherine, we call her kid Cat. She's thirteen.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so okay, so I'm just trying to set the

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Speaker 3: scene for what your family was going through. And then

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Speaker 3: so you have her dad and her other mother as well.

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Speaker 3: They they got married. Now do they have children as well?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, they have two children as well. So they have

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Speaker 1: two sons. One's get ready to graduate high school this

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Speaker 1: year and the other ones just in high school. So yeah,

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Speaker 1: they were all at an age where they were old

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Speaker 1: enough to realize that something something was wrong, like something

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Speaker 1: wasn't right.

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Speaker 2: Oh, definitely. Were you all living in New York at

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Speaker 2: this time.

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Speaker 1: So we were living in New York at the time.

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Speaker 1: Gabby's dad they had just moved to Florida only a

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Speaker 1: few months prior. Okay, he had transferred jobs down there.

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Speaker 1: So they were literally like still had boxes in the

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Speaker 1: house when everything happened. You know, they hadn't fully unpacked

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Speaker 1: yet when they got thrown into it as well.

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Speaker 3: So Gabby is the oldest of the children and she

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Speaker 3: so I just I'm trying to see how you guys

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Speaker 3: felt about this. Relationship. She meets this guy, and you

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Speaker 3: guys met him, mom, assuming, Yeah, we met him before.

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Speaker 1: They went to high school together. He was a year

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Speaker 1: older than her. He was part of the friend group

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Speaker 1: that they were in. He was kind of always known

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Speaker 1: as the quiet, you know, strange kid, so to speak.

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Speaker 1: They were very like artsy group, And so they met

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Speaker 1: in high school. He graduated and Gabby had graduated the

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Speaker 1: next year. She had gone her her own way. She

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Speaker 1: put all of her eggs in one basket to go

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Speaker 1: to one art school and they rejected her portfolio. So

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Speaker 1: she kind of just went out into the workforce after that.

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Speaker 1: And she was starting to do a little bit of

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Speaker 1: traveling around a bit because that's something that she always

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Speaker 1: wanted to do. And she was back home. Had to

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Speaker 1: be some time. I think was around twenty nineteen ish

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Speaker 1: or so. Sometimes the dates kind of are fuzzy for me.

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Speaker 1: But she got reconnected with him. He came into her job,

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Speaker 1: they started talking, they started hanging out again. They went

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Speaker 1: on a road trip prior to that faithful one together.

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Speaker 1: They left us friends and as my wife says, you know,

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Speaker 1: they came back, you know more than that. And it

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Speaker 1: wasn't soon after that Uh, he said his family was

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Speaker 1: moving to Florida and he wanted her to go with

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Speaker 1: her with him, and so she did, and uh, you know,

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Speaker 1: that's that's kind of how things started playing out after that.

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Speaker 2: Were you guys at all worried as parents about her

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Speaker 2: moving so far away from you at such a young

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Speaker 2: age and the subsequent engagement.

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Speaker 1: So, you know, she was she was in her in

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Speaker 1: her twenties. Now at this point, we're all, you know,

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Speaker 1: you're always worried about your kids, but she was she

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Speaker 1: was really grown into her own as an adult. She'd

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Speaker 1: been pretty pretty responsible. You know, she's a pretty tough girl.

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Speaker 1: She could take care of herself, and there was always

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Speaker 1: that worry about it. But the fact that she was

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Speaker 1: moving with somebody that she went to school with, that

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Speaker 1: you think you trust and and that you know, you know,

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Speaker 1: that kind of like eased it a little bit. But

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Speaker 1: it was it was something that she wanted. And we

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Speaker 1: got married young, my wife and I and you know,

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Speaker 1: I was kind of on my own after high school

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Speaker 1: at a young age too, So it's not the norm

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Speaker 1: for I guess a lot of people nowadays where sometimes

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Speaker 1: kids stay home a little bit longer. But it didn't

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Speaker 1: seem too too crazy at the time for us, we

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Speaker 1: did have some family living in and around the Florida area,

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Speaker 1: so if we needed something, you know, there was somebody

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Speaker 1: not too too far away, So we had that in

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Speaker 1: the back of our mind too.

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Speaker 3: So you guys, didn't have any kind of a bad

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Speaker 3: vibe about this guy before she went.

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Speaker 1: No, I mean, and he had come over to the house,

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Speaker 1: you know, I couldn't even tell you how many times.

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Speaker 1: And when he'd come over, he was always polite, he

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Speaker 1: was respectful, quiet, you know. He would play or do

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Speaker 1: art games or different art projects with our daughters while

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Speaker 1: he was there. So he never really never really gave

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Speaker 1: us any red flags from from the start. And like

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Speaker 1: as a dad, especially doing what I did for so long,

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Speaker 1: or your guard is usually up you know, and anyone

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Speaker 1: that comes around. Yeah, but for some reason, it wasn't

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Speaker 1: really up on head. And that's one thing I really

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Speaker 1: kind of kick myself in the butt ford of not

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Speaker 1: not being too not not being more of like judgy,

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Speaker 1: I guess, and I don't know if I were to

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Speaker 1: that right, but just letting my guard down.

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Speaker 2: Well, I think these people kind of are experts and

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Speaker 2: hiding their true selves. You know, and they portray themselves

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Speaker 2: as these wonderful people, and behind the scenes they're just

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Speaker 2: doing these terrible things. So I understand where you come

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Speaker 2: in and you kind of like, I don't want to say,

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Speaker 2: put the blame on yourself, but feel, you know, upon

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Speaker 2: reflection bad about it. But I think these people, just

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Speaker 2: in all these cases we cover, are just so good

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Speaker 2: about hiding it that it's impossible for anybody to detect,

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Speaker 2: even the victims.

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Speaker 1: You know, And that's and that's something we you know,

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Speaker 1: you start to learn after the fact, so you know,

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Speaker 1: between what you experience in life, what you see on

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Speaker 1: TV and the media, and and what you believe, like

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Speaker 1: domestic abuse and domestic violence really looks like the first

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Speaker 1: assumption immediately is that it's all physical violence, and it's not.

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Speaker 1: It's all this other power and control and emotional and

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Speaker 1: psychological abuse that's going on that eventually leads to that abuse.

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Speaker 1: That physical abuse and the physical stuff and all that

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Speaker 1: other stuff typically happens behind closed doors. You know. That's

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Speaker 1: why it is such a difficult topic to really get

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Speaker 1: into that so many people don't understand now looking back

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Speaker 1: on it and knowing what we know now, like there

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Speaker 1: were signs and we just didn't know to look for them.

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Speaker 3: You know, I have. I'm in a similar situation with you,

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Speaker 3: as you know that Maria was significantly older than my

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Speaker 3: younger kids. And when your kids are in your house,

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Speaker 3: you're kind of up their butt all the time and

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Speaker 3: you know everything they're doing and all their friends and everything,

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Speaker 3: and then when they move out, it's kind of you know,

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Speaker 3: she would go work at a bar on the weekends

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Speaker 3: and be out at three in the morning, and it's

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Speaker 3: just kind of an out of sight, out of mind thing.

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Speaker 3: And I'm sure that you guys were the same way.

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Speaker 3: Like she's she's there, and you think about her and

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Speaker 3: talk about her, you know, talk to her once in

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Speaker 3: a while or every couple days or whatever, but you're

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Speaker 3: you don't really know what's going on in her life

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Speaker 3: because she's an adult now. So she had she had

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Speaker 3: already went on a trip with this guy, and it

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Speaker 3: was fine, you I mean, seemingly fine. So then they

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Speaker 3: she calls you and says she's going on this other trip,

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Speaker 3: and you guys probably were just like, okay, cool, like

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Speaker 3: another trip, yeah, And it.

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Speaker 1: Was something that she talked about and that they were planning.

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Speaker 1: They wanted to change things up. The first trip they

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Speaker 1: did in her little Nissan Sentra and drove that little

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Speaker 1: tiny thing across the country. And so this time she

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Speaker 1: was like, well, you know, we're gonna plan it out more.

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Speaker 1: We're gonna do it a little bit differently. You know,

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Speaker 1: we're gonna get like a like a van and we're

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Speaker 1: gonna we're gonna convert it into like a little camper.

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Speaker 1: That way we have more room. And so it seemed

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Speaker 1: like she had this plan going and they were working

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Speaker 1: on it like it wasn't going to be an immediate thing.

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Speaker 1: There was like other things that were going on down

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Speaker 1: there that I guess we didn't really know about. So,

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Speaker 1: you know, for one of the one of the first

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Speaker 1: red flags was you know that quick attachment I think

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Speaker 1: you kind of mentioned earlier, where you know, the relationship

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Speaker 1: moved very fast, like love bombing, doting on her, you know,

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Speaker 1: the center of attention, which a lot of people might

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Speaker 1: think is a good thing but can be problematic. And

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Speaker 1: then moving to Florida, well then that kind of isolates

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Speaker 1: her away from her family. And then while she was

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Speaker 1: down there, she had a first job down there, and

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Speaker 1: she started making friends there and this is all stuff

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Speaker 1: we kind of found out after the fact, but didn't

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Speaker 1: like those friends, so she quit that job and then

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Speaker 1: she came to the same place that he was working,

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Speaker 1: and then we don't need two cars and save some

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Speaker 1: money and a lot of other little things there. And

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Speaker 1: it was all during COVID two, so the world was

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Speaker 1: a little crazy, but you're not there to see it

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Speaker 1: all the time, so you don't you don't see these

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Speaker 1: red flags. And then it just seemed like suddenly, boom,

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Speaker 1: we're going to take this road trip. And so yeah,

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Speaker 1: they came up in the end of June twenty twenty one.

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Speaker 1: Our son was graduating high school. She wanted to come

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Speaker 1: up for that, and that's where they kicked off. The

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Speaker 1: road trip from was from Long Island right around July

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Speaker 1: second or so, was the last time, you know, we

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Speaker 1: saw her in person.

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Speaker 3: So so you're talking to her throughout the trip, either

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Speaker 3: by a text message or FaceTime or something. When when

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Speaker 3: was the first time that you guys started to think

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Speaker 3: something was not right?

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Speaker 1: August twelfth, That was the day we found out that

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Speaker 1: there was an incident in moab Utah. And what was

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Speaker 1: explained to us that day was completely different than what

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Speaker 1: actually happened, and it's something that so many people that

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Speaker 1: are experiencing domestic abuse and domestic violence do. They downplay it.

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Speaker 1: They'll take the blame for what occurred that day. We

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Speaker 1: were basically told that there was an argument in public,

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Speaker 1: somebody called the police, they were going to give him

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Speaker 1: a ticket. They didn't, but everything was fine, you know,

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Speaker 1: and myself her father were like, we're gonna jump out

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Speaker 1: a plane. We'll fly out there right now. We'll get

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Speaker 1: your van home, you know, take a little break, and

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Speaker 1: she just kept reassuring, you know, no, no, no, everything

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Speaker 1: is fine. Everything is fine. And so there was a

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Speaker 1: little separation period between the two of them. He had

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Speaker 1: come back to Florida for a little bit to take

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Speaker 1: care of some stuff at a storage facility, and then

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Speaker 1: he flew back and they continued on their trip, and

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Speaker 1: there was still you know, I'd go to the firehouse

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Speaker 1: and you know, on the days I was working, and

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Speaker 1: I'd always check social media to see where she's at,

354
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Speaker 1: because she was always posting different pictures, and you know,

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Speaker 1: that was always I'm sitting at the kitchen table with

356
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Speaker 1: the guys and having a cup of coffee or something,

357
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Speaker 1: and you know, hey, where is she today. I'm like, oh,

358
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Speaker 1: she's over here, you know, check out these these photos.

359
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Speaker 1: And that continued on until the end of August, when

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Speaker 1: all those posts stopped. They just they just stopped. There

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Speaker 1: wasn't anything, and there wasn't any more communication. And the

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Speaker 1: last few text messages my wife received were very odd.

363
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Speaker 1: It just didn't seem like her. And so that was

364
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Speaker 1: right around the end of August. She received one that said,

365
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Speaker 1: tell tell Stan stop calling me. I don't have a

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Speaker 1: good signal on our way to Yosemite. Well, Stan was

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Speaker 1: a grandfather and she never called him Stan. She always

368
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Speaker 1: called him Grandpa. But we figured maybe she was driving,

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Speaker 1: maybe he was texting for her, and I thought it

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Speaker 1: was odd because they weren't going to Yosemite. They were

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Speaker 1: going to Yellowstone after Wyoming and then heading up through

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Speaker 1: like Idaho and into Oregon. So but maybe she mistyped

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Speaker 1: or something. And then there was another text message in

374
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Speaker 1: there about going off being a solo van lifer herself,

375
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Speaker 1: and so just the worrying of it, it didn't seem right.

376
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Speaker 1: But then all communication pretty much stopped after that, and

377
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Speaker 1: my wife got really worried. She thought that something happened

378
00:20:18,320 --> 00:20:21,080
Speaker 1: to the two of them, not just her, And so

379
00:20:21,119 --> 00:20:24,000
Speaker 1: she was calling, texting, We were all calling and texting,

380
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Speaker 1: no answer, no answer, trying to call down to his parents.

381
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Speaker 1: They wouldn't answer. And it took my wife well, probably

382
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Speaker 1: three days or so back and forth with phone calls

383
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Speaker 1: to different law enforcement agencies to report her missing, and

384
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Speaker 1: you know, she just kind of got bounced around like

385
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Speaker 1: a pin pulling ball. It's not easy to report an

386
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Speaker 1: adult missing in this country because they are an adult,

387
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Speaker 1: they do have the right to go missing if they want.

388
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Speaker 1: It was just crazy. And then you know, it was

389
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Speaker 1: just all different jurisdictional things like, well, where was the

390
00:21:00,800 --> 00:21:03,080
Speaker 1: last place you saw her? You have to report her there. No,

391
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Speaker 1: where does she live you have to report her there. No,

392
00:21:05,800 --> 00:21:08,840
Speaker 1: when was the last physical location you know she was at?

393
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Speaker 1: You have to call there. And finally, on September eleventh

394
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Speaker 1: of twenty twenty one, my wife walked into the fifth

395
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Speaker 1: Priescinct in a patchow of New York and she basically

396
00:21:17,440 --> 00:21:19,840
Speaker 1: threw herself at the floor in front of a female

397
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Speaker 1: detective and said, something's not right. You know, I can't

398
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Speaker 1: I can't get a hold of my daughter now for days,

399
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Speaker 1: and she took the report and that detective called down

400
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Speaker 1: to Florida where they were living, and that's when they

401
00:21:33,720 --> 00:21:37,159
Speaker 1: discovered he was there. The van was there. They handed

402
00:21:37,720 --> 00:21:41,879
Speaker 1: the police the cards had called our attorney and Gabby

403
00:21:41,960 --> 00:21:45,720
Speaker 1: wasn't there, and then that's just when like, oh, helber

404
00:21:45,840 --> 00:21:46,600
Speaker 1: close after that.

405
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Speaker 3: So, what was your relationship like with her parents prior

406
00:21:53,520 --> 00:21:55,800
Speaker 3: to this? Had you ever met them in real life

407
00:21:55,920 --> 00:21:57,480
Speaker 3: or even talked to them on the phone. Did you

408
00:21:57,520 --> 00:21:58,880
Speaker 3: have any kind of relationship.

409
00:21:59,040 --> 00:22:00,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, we met him and my wife for text occasionally

410
00:22:01,000 --> 00:22:04,960
Speaker 1: with them, and I mean they even had like a

411
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Speaker 1: Pinterest page or something like that that they used to

412
00:22:07,400 --> 00:22:10,520
Speaker 1: like share things on. We met them at at our house,

413
00:22:10,560 --> 00:22:13,440
Speaker 1: even though they deny that ever happening. We talked to

414
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Speaker 1: them in person, but yeah, we we spoke to them.

415
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Speaker 1: They seemed just like any other any other family, little quiet,

416
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Speaker 1: but they were, you know, nothing out of the ordinary.

417
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Speaker 2: So when they weren't taking your calls and cooperating, did

418
00:22:30,280 --> 00:22:33,119
Speaker 2: you immediately have a gut feeling something was really wrong?

419
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Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, right from the beginning, you know the

420
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Speaker 1: fact that and that was that I think that was

421
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Speaker 1: one of the things that my wife really pointed out

422
00:22:42,040 --> 00:22:44,880
Speaker 1: to the detective was like I can't even I think,

423
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Speaker 1: like I can't get a hold of be the one

424
00:22:46,320 --> 00:22:50,399
Speaker 1: of these kids, and they're not answering my text The

425
00:22:50,440 --> 00:22:53,560
Speaker 1: parents aren't answering my texts or anything like That's that's

426
00:22:53,600 --> 00:22:55,560
Speaker 1: a little little odd, like I don't know what's going on.

427
00:22:56,480 --> 00:22:58,880
Speaker 1: So that kind of set things off. And then when

428
00:22:59,160 --> 00:23:02,360
Speaker 1: that detective came our door that evening and said, yeah,

429
00:23:02,400 --> 00:23:05,480
Speaker 1: your daughter's officially a missing person, you know, that's when

430
00:23:06,040 --> 00:23:07,840
Speaker 1: you know, all these things are going off of my head.

431
00:23:08,640 --> 00:23:12,119
Speaker 1: I'll say for myself, like my response to that, I

432
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Speaker 1: didn't go into a dad or husband mode at that

433
00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:20,200
Speaker 1: point because I didn't know how my brain was programmed

434
00:23:20,240 --> 00:23:24,199
Speaker 1: to respond as a first responder, and so you know,

435
00:23:24,359 --> 00:23:26,639
Speaker 1: I didn't know how to like console at that time.

436
00:23:26,760 --> 00:23:32,080
Speaker 1: I didn't know how to do anything other than start

437
00:23:32,280 --> 00:23:34,480
Speaker 1: doing my research, trying to put things together and like

438
00:23:34,520 --> 00:23:37,160
Speaker 1: respond to this, like like the tones dropped in the

439
00:23:37,160 --> 00:23:39,240
Speaker 1: firehouse and I had to go take care of this.

440
00:23:40,600 --> 00:23:44,879
Speaker 1: So you know, that's when I made the decision. I said, listen,

441
00:23:45,000 --> 00:23:46,320
Speaker 1: I'm going to go I'm going to go look for her.

442
00:23:46,520 --> 00:23:48,120
Speaker 1: I'm going to go try to find her and bring

443
00:23:48,160 --> 00:23:48,560
Speaker 1: her home.

444
00:23:50,359 --> 00:23:52,440
Speaker 3: How did you even I mean this is just such

445
00:23:52,440 --> 00:23:57,480
Speaker 3: an unusual circumstance because she was traveling across country, you

446
00:23:57,560 --> 00:24:00,639
Speaker 3: knew kind of like around the way or she was,

447
00:24:00,680 --> 00:24:01,000
Speaker 3: but not.

448
00:24:01,440 --> 00:24:06,800
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, So she she had shared a bunch

449
00:24:06,840 --> 00:24:09,840
Speaker 1: of her apps with me, so and her brother too, so,

450
00:24:09,960 --> 00:24:13,959
Speaker 1: like different hiking apps, different camping apps for campgrounds and stuff,

451
00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:16,760
Speaker 1: which always amazed me because we've we've camped for a

452
00:24:16,760 --> 00:24:19,679
Speaker 1: long time. We had a camper going back years before this,

453
00:24:19,760 --> 00:24:21,960
Speaker 1: and she never liked it because it was too dirty,

454
00:24:21,960 --> 00:24:24,400
Speaker 1: there was too many bugs or whatever. And then as

455
00:24:24,440 --> 00:24:26,280
Speaker 1: she got older she started doing this and I'm like, really,

456
00:24:26,320 --> 00:24:28,720
Speaker 1: She's like, yeah, that's actually pretty fun now. So I

457
00:24:28,720 --> 00:24:30,359
Speaker 1: guess it just wasn't cool at the time being with

458
00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:34,159
Speaker 1: your parents or something. But so, so she knew that

459
00:24:34,240 --> 00:24:36,240
Speaker 1: I was into hiking. She knew I was in into

460
00:24:36,280 --> 00:24:39,719
Speaker 1: the outdoors and stuff, and so was her brother, and

461
00:24:39,800 --> 00:24:43,040
Speaker 1: so she would always highlight different places she went and say, hey, like,

462
00:24:43,040 --> 00:24:45,320
Speaker 1: you guys should go check this out. So I immediately

463
00:24:45,359 --> 00:24:47,640
Speaker 1: went went to those those different apps, and I looked

464
00:24:47,680 --> 00:24:50,399
Speaker 1: and I realized, like her, you know, leading up to this,

465
00:24:50,760 --> 00:24:53,199
Speaker 1: the last time we heard from her, she was in

466
00:24:53,240 --> 00:24:55,840
Speaker 1: and around the Grands Hetah National Park, so I said,

467
00:24:56,000 --> 00:24:58,280
Speaker 1: if I have a feeling that she's somewhere, she's got

468
00:24:58,320 --> 00:25:00,960
Speaker 1: to be She's got to be in there somewhere. And

469
00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:03,920
Speaker 1: I don't know, you know, I'm running scenarios through my head.

470
00:25:04,080 --> 00:25:07,520
Speaker 1: She had Jane Doe in a hospital bed somewhere, unable

471
00:25:07,560 --> 00:25:10,840
Speaker 1: to communicate. She'd lost in the middle of the woods

472
00:25:10,880 --> 00:25:13,240
Speaker 1: and injured. Did he leave her on the side of

473
00:25:13,240 --> 00:25:16,440
Speaker 1: the road. Did she get fed up or something and

474
00:25:16,920 --> 00:25:21,080
Speaker 1: leave with like another another group of people. But I

475
00:25:21,160 --> 00:25:23,399
Speaker 1: just figured that all my training, everything that I did.

476
00:25:24,200 --> 00:25:25,840
Speaker 1: You know, I have the I Love Me book, like

477
00:25:25,920 --> 00:25:29,720
Speaker 1: most firefighters do. It's like this thick of different certifications.

478
00:25:29,720 --> 00:25:31,680
Speaker 1: I said, I'm going to go, you know, in connections everywhere.

479
00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:33,399
Speaker 1: You know, we know people everywhere, So I'm gonna go

480
00:25:33,440 --> 00:25:36,040
Speaker 1: find her. So I packed up my gear, I flew

481
00:25:36,080 --> 00:25:38,800
Speaker 1: out two thousand miles and started doing what I what

482
00:25:38,840 --> 00:25:42,600
Speaker 1: I could do and meeting with law enforcement. When I

483
00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:45,199
Speaker 1: got out there, I had no idea what to expect,

484
00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:46,960
Speaker 1: because when you come from more part of the country,

485
00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:49,840
Speaker 1: you know, we're pretty rich with resources here. I'll tell

486
00:25:49,880 --> 00:25:53,400
Speaker 1: you this. Probably where I lived in Suffolk County, more

487
00:25:53,760 --> 00:25:55,640
Speaker 1: cops in that county than there are in the entire

488
00:25:55,720 --> 00:25:58,080
Speaker 1: state of Wyoming, so you don't know what you're going

489
00:25:58,119 --> 00:26:01,960
Speaker 1: to expect out there. But one of the first things

490
00:26:01,960 --> 00:26:04,119
Speaker 1: I did was I went to the little ranger station,

491
00:26:04,359 --> 00:26:08,040
Speaker 1: the little visitor station in Wyoming and Jackson and I

492
00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:10,159
Speaker 1: got a map of the area, and I started asking

493
00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:14,280
Speaker 1: that the person questions about campgrounds. I kind of knew

494
00:26:14,280 --> 00:26:17,200
Speaker 1: her camping style, where they would they would pay to

495
00:26:17,240 --> 00:26:20,320
Speaker 1: get a campsite, but if they could find a dispersed campground,

496
00:26:20,320 --> 00:26:23,800
Speaker 1: which which are free campgrounds in the area, and they

497
00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:25,800
Speaker 1: could find a spot in one of those free campgrounds,

498
00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:28,159
Speaker 1: they would reserve the campground that they paid for to

499
00:26:28,160 --> 00:26:30,280
Speaker 1: make sure they had a spot. But once they found

500
00:26:30,320 --> 00:26:32,119
Speaker 1: a free one that was close by, if it was

501
00:26:32,680 --> 00:26:34,320
Speaker 1: had all the things they were looking for, they would

502
00:26:34,320 --> 00:26:36,880
Speaker 1: cancel it just to save some money. So I had

503
00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:39,000
Speaker 1: them tell me where all the dispersed campgrounds were, what

504
00:26:39,040 --> 00:26:41,000
Speaker 1: they were all like. I didn't tell them what I

505
00:26:41,040 --> 00:26:43,199
Speaker 1: was there for, and I remember I got back to

506
00:26:43,240 --> 00:26:44,880
Speaker 1: the car and I circled this area on the map

507
00:26:44,920 --> 00:26:46,920
Speaker 1: and I said, if I had to guess, you'd probably

508
00:26:46,960 --> 00:26:48,720
Speaker 1: camp in an area like this because it's kind of

509
00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:51,440
Speaker 1: like in between the two entrances to the park. It's

510
00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:54,480
Speaker 1: on that way up the Yellowstone. It's got a creek

511
00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:58,280
Speaker 1: that's running through, it's got views of the mountains, a

512
00:26:58,280 --> 00:27:00,280
Speaker 1: big open area. They could spend a couple of days there,

513
00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:03,600
Speaker 1: up to seven days there. And from there I went

514
00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:05,560
Speaker 1: up and I had a meeting with the law enforcement

515
00:27:06,040 --> 00:27:10,360
Speaker 1: officials that day with Park Service for service, the Jackson

516
00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:15,480
Speaker 1: County or Jackson Police Department, Teton County Sheriffs, and I

517
00:27:15,480 --> 00:27:18,200
Speaker 1: basically told them, hey, like I'm here, I'm family. I'm

518
00:27:18,240 --> 00:27:20,040
Speaker 1: not here to interfere. I'm here to help. Let you

519
00:27:20,080 --> 00:27:22,879
Speaker 1: know that. You know, I want to answer any questions

520
00:27:22,920 --> 00:27:24,560
Speaker 1: you might have or assist you in any way you

521
00:27:25,240 --> 00:27:28,240
Speaker 1: might need. And here's what I know about our daughter.

522
00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:30,639
Speaker 1: Here's what I know about her, her traveling habits, this

523
00:27:30,760 --> 00:27:37,040
Speaker 1: is what I know about her camping habits. And you know,

524
00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:39,879
Speaker 1: whatever I can do. And this is what I know

525
00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:42,800
Speaker 1: up to this point. And when I pointed out the

526
00:27:42,840 --> 00:27:44,520
Speaker 1: area on the map where I'm like, this would definitely

527
00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:47,000
Speaker 1: be a place that she was, she would she would stay,

528
00:27:47,520 --> 00:27:50,000
Speaker 1: they didn't say anything, but they didn't really do a

529
00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:53,200
Speaker 1: good job of like hiding their reaction because they kind

530
00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:56,000
Speaker 1: of like shifty eyed each other like looking around and

531
00:27:56,119 --> 00:27:57,840
Speaker 1: unbeknownst to me at the time, that's the one of

532
00:27:57,840 --> 00:28:00,720
Speaker 1: the areas they were already looking for her. When when

533
00:28:00,760 --> 00:28:01,800
Speaker 1: I had that meeting.

534
00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:06,600
Speaker 3: Did you at any time think, I mean, I know

535
00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:11,000
Speaker 3: that you're a firefighter, so you see terrible stuff as

536
00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:15,440
Speaker 3: opposed to the regular, regular citizen. But did you honestly

537
00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:20,399
Speaker 3: think that she was still alive somewhere where you like

538
00:28:20,520 --> 00:28:23,040
Speaker 3: trying to tell yourself like, oh, there has to be

539
00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:26,040
Speaker 3: some kind of misunderstanding, she's like in the hospital or something.

540
00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:30,280
Speaker 3: Did you even let your mind go there prior to

541
00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:32,480
Speaker 3: finding this out? Uh?

542
00:28:32,800 --> 00:28:35,840
Speaker 1: I would say that I probably in the back of

543
00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:38,560
Speaker 1: my mind. I kept it at the back knew that

544
00:28:39,320 --> 00:28:41,720
Speaker 1: it could be exactly what I was going to come across,

545
00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:45,120
Speaker 1: but I tried to run all these other scenarios of

546
00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:49,160
Speaker 1: what ifs, and I guess, you know, as I was

547
00:28:49,200 --> 00:28:52,240
Speaker 1: calling home and texting home, I was still trying to

548
00:28:52,280 --> 00:28:54,760
Speaker 1: keep keep them a little bit positive about about it.

549
00:28:56,400 --> 00:28:59,680
Speaker 1: But even that it was really a breakdown between my

550
00:29:00,480 --> 00:29:05,000
Speaker 1: professional and personal boundaries because like I still, I guess

551
00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:08,120
Speaker 1: I felt disconnected at that time, not realizing like, this

552
00:29:08,280 --> 00:29:13,480
Speaker 1: is our daughter that we're looking for. But I was

553
00:29:13,520 --> 00:29:14,959
Speaker 1: just trying. I was just trying to run all these

554
00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:16,480
Speaker 1: other things, you know, what have have we checked here?

555
00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:18,760
Speaker 1: Have we checked there? You know, just kind of like

556
00:29:18,840 --> 00:29:22,120
Speaker 1: checking off like different things, you know, And they had

557
00:29:22,360 --> 00:29:24,720
Speaker 1: the law enforcement, they had already run through all the hospitals,

558
00:29:24,760 --> 00:29:28,240
Speaker 1: they'd run through everything, and I knew that those were

559
00:29:28,240 --> 00:29:31,920
Speaker 1: no longer viable options and stuff, so I kind of

560
00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:33,360
Speaker 1: knew it probably wouldn't be good.

561
00:29:34,480 --> 00:29:37,240
Speaker 2: How did you navigate your other kids during this time?

562
00:29:37,280 --> 00:29:40,240
Speaker 2: Were they aware since the first day, you guys suspected

563
00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:42,520
Speaker 2: something was wrong, that something was going on.

564
00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:45,760
Speaker 1: They could tell like once once my wife. You know,

565
00:29:45,800 --> 00:29:50,080
Speaker 1: they pick up on parents' emotions and they could tell

566
00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:52,800
Speaker 1: something was off. But we would try to keep them

567
00:29:52,840 --> 00:29:56,400
Speaker 1: as calm as possible. When I was out in Wyoming,

568
00:29:56,440 --> 00:29:59,160
Speaker 1: we had a ton of friends, you know, the fire department, family,

569
00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:02,960
Speaker 1: everybody coming in the house. So they would they would

570
00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:05,120
Speaker 1: take like our daughters out or my son out and

571
00:30:05,520 --> 00:30:06,680
Speaker 1: kind of take him out of the house if there

572
00:30:06,680 --> 00:30:08,000
Speaker 1: was a lot of things going on, if there were

573
00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:11,840
Speaker 1: phone calls, and kind of keeping them busy so that

574
00:30:11,840 --> 00:30:15,680
Speaker 1: they wouldn't be kind of seeing, you know, the emotions

575
00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:18,240
Speaker 1: that we were going through and trying to just keep

576
00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:22,120
Speaker 1: them calm to so. But they were at the age

577
00:30:22,120 --> 00:30:24,320
Speaker 1: where they they knew something was wrong. I just don't

578
00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:29,120
Speaker 1: think they realized how how bad it was going to be.

579
00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:34,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, when they got to Florida and found when they

580
00:30:34,160 --> 00:30:38,240
Speaker 3: called you guys and said her Brian's there at the

581
00:30:38,280 --> 00:30:41,480
Speaker 3: house in Florida and her van's because it was her

582
00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:43,160
Speaker 3: van right, correct, it was in her name.

583
00:30:43,240 --> 00:30:44,200
Speaker 1: He was registered in her name.

584
00:30:44,280 --> 00:30:49,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, how I mean, how come? What did the what

585
00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:51,920
Speaker 3: did the police do? They just were like they they

586
00:30:52,120 --> 00:30:54,280
Speaker 3: went there and said, oh, he's there, and that's it.

587
00:30:54,360 --> 00:30:57,000
Speaker 3: They couldn't do anything and question him or anything.

588
00:30:57,360 --> 00:31:00,000
Speaker 1: Uh well, they actually never even saw him in the house.

589
00:31:00,840 --> 00:31:02,640
Speaker 1: The parents just said he was there, so they never

590
00:31:02,680 --> 00:31:05,080
Speaker 1: even verified that he was in the house. But they

591
00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:07,120
Speaker 1: impounded the van that day and they were like, yeah,

592
00:31:07,160 --> 00:31:10,760
Speaker 1: take the van, there you go, and oh the only

593
00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:13,040
Speaker 1: thing we were told about that was that the van

594
00:31:13,840 --> 00:31:17,440
Speaker 1: was a heck of a lot cleaner than it should

595
00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:20,800
Speaker 1: have been, considering that it was just on a multiple

596
00:31:20,880 --> 00:31:22,440
Speaker 1: month road trip across the country.

597
00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:26,360
Speaker 3: I just I mean, I don't I ever, I'm always

598
00:31:26,360 --> 00:31:29,680
Speaker 3: confused about how law enforcement works and stuff, But I

599
00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:33,080
Speaker 3: would think at a very minimum, if he had her

600
00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:35,280
Speaker 3: van and she wasn't there, then he could get in

601
00:31:35,320 --> 00:31:39,479
Speaker 3: trouble for like a stolen vehicle if it wasn't his.

602
00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:44,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know. There was a lot of things

603
00:31:44,080 --> 00:31:48,000
Speaker 1: that I'm not too certain on either. You know, there's

604
00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:50,840
Speaker 1: and all sorts of other law enforcement agencies came out,

605
00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:52,800
Speaker 1: you know and say, you know, if this is my jurisdiction,

606
00:31:52,920 --> 00:31:56,080
Speaker 1: we would have done this or that. You know. I'm

607
00:31:56,080 --> 00:32:01,120
Speaker 1: not sure, but at that point, I guess they really

608
00:32:01,160 --> 00:32:04,920
Speaker 1: hadn't proved a crime or anything like that that occurred.

609
00:32:05,560 --> 00:32:08,440
Speaker 1: So at best, I don't know if it could be

610
00:32:08,520 --> 00:32:12,840
Speaker 1: like a unlawful use of like the vehicle, you know,

611
00:32:12,920 --> 00:32:17,040
Speaker 1: taking it without permission versus its stolen. Yeah, so I'm

612
00:32:17,080 --> 00:32:20,120
Speaker 1: not sure. I don't know if being handed a card

613
00:32:20,120 --> 00:32:22,320
Speaker 1: for an attorney kind of freaks them out a little bit.

614
00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:23,000
Speaker 1: I don't know.

615
00:32:24,280 --> 00:32:27,120
Speaker 3: Well, that to me is a huge I mean, that

616
00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:30,440
Speaker 3: was a huge red flag obviously. So God, I feel

617
00:32:30,480 --> 00:32:33,080
Speaker 3: so bad for your wife to adoring this, just because

618
00:32:33,800 --> 00:32:36,560
Speaker 3: I always say this at any cases that we cover

619
00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:39,560
Speaker 3: when a person and you know, going to crime kind

620
00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:41,960
Speaker 3: you see all these people that have missing family members.

621
00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:46,680
Speaker 3: It just even though death is obviously the worst. Just

622
00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:51,200
Speaker 3: the waiting period of not knowing is just I can't

623
00:32:51,200 --> 00:32:52,880
Speaker 3: even imagine what that could have been like.

624
00:32:53,800 --> 00:32:58,160
Speaker 1: And we consider ourselves lucky to some extent because I mean,

625
00:32:58,840 --> 00:33:00,400
Speaker 1: from the time that we were able to get her

626
00:33:00,440 --> 00:33:03,080
Speaker 1: reported missing to the time we found her was like

627
00:33:03,120 --> 00:33:06,360
Speaker 1: eight days, although you know, we knew like a little

628
00:33:06,360 --> 00:33:09,920
Speaker 1: bit before then, like something wasn't right. But really it's

629
00:33:10,400 --> 00:33:15,600
Speaker 1: it wasn't that long a time from when we knew

630
00:33:15,640 --> 00:33:17,720
Speaker 1: something was off to when we found her. And there's

631
00:33:17,760 --> 00:33:22,640
Speaker 1: other families out there that they go months, years, decades

632
00:33:23,400 --> 00:33:25,440
Speaker 1: with not knowing, And I can't imagine what that's like

633
00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:27,320
Speaker 1: for them, because I know what it was like during

634
00:33:27,360 --> 00:33:31,120
Speaker 1: that time, but be going, you know, and you've seen

635
00:33:31,160 --> 00:33:33,560
Speaker 1: them there, You've seen them at these at these different conferences,

636
00:33:33,600 --> 00:33:36,760
Speaker 1: like still decades later, like begging for help, like begging

637
00:33:36,800 --> 00:33:40,840
Speaker 1: for somebody to to listen and to kind of revitalize

638
00:33:40,880 --> 00:33:44,240
Speaker 1: the story and help help them. And then because they

639
00:33:44,280 --> 00:33:46,800
Speaker 1: feel like they're forgotten, you know, after a certain period

640
00:33:46,840 --> 00:33:49,200
Speaker 1: of time, and they're just doing everything they can to

641
00:33:49,280 --> 00:33:51,200
Speaker 1: try to figure out like what happened to them. And

642
00:33:51,440 --> 00:33:53,640
Speaker 1: I just can't imagine what that's like for those families.

643
00:33:54,480 --> 00:33:56,920
Speaker 2: No I mean, I can't even imagine. I imagine those

644
00:33:56,960 --> 00:33:59,040
Speaker 2: couple of weeks took years off of your life.

645
00:33:59,120 --> 00:34:02,000
Speaker 1: So yeah, I can always have this much gray. I mean,

646
00:34:02,040 --> 00:34:03,640
Speaker 1: I don't have any hair in my head, but like

647
00:34:04,200 --> 00:34:08,719
Speaker 1: I mean, it's yeah, it definitely did took a lot

648
00:34:08,760 --> 00:34:09,840
Speaker 1: out of us.

649
00:34:17,800 --> 00:34:19,920
Speaker 2: This episode is brought to you by The Grosser Room.

650
00:34:20,360 --> 00:34:23,239
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651
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652
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653
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654
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655
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656
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Speaker 3: Every week we do a high profile death dissection or

657
00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:50,480
Speaker 3: a celebrity death dissection, where we go through a case

658
00:34:50,520 --> 00:34:53,040
Speaker 3: and break it down and it's our biggest article of

659
00:34:53,080 --> 00:34:57,240
Speaker 3: the week. Last week, in keeping with the Halloween theme,

660
00:34:57,320 --> 00:35:00,480
Speaker 3: we did a case of an embalmed huge in head

661
00:35:00,520 --> 00:35:04,280
Speaker 3: that was found in a wooded area and it's still unsolved.

662
00:35:04,280 --> 00:35:08,440
Speaker 3: So if you have any advice or anything that, we

663
00:35:08,520 --> 00:35:11,440
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664
00:35:11,520 --> 00:35:16,919
Speaker 3: the comment section. This week, in keeping with Halloween, which

665
00:35:16,960 --> 00:35:21,360
Speaker 3: will be our last dissection of October. We are covering

666
00:35:21,400 --> 00:35:25,440
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667
00:35:25,680 --> 00:35:28,920
Speaker 3: was inspired by a real life serial killer, so that'll

668
00:35:28,960 --> 00:35:31,200
Speaker 3: be really interesting and we'll go through some of the

669
00:35:31,239 --> 00:35:35,520
Speaker 3: scenes of the movie and compare and contrast. It should

670
00:35:35,560 --> 00:35:37,719
Speaker 3: be really interesting, So check that out.

671
00:35:38,239 --> 00:35:40,439
Speaker 2: Head over to the grossroom dot com now to get

672
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673
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Speaker 3: So one conversation that we've had before is that you're

674
00:35:49,840 --> 00:35:54,720
Speaker 3: you're a firefighter, and you know, obviously we're a fire

675
00:35:54,760 --> 00:35:59,000
Speaker 3: family too, so we we know how Daddy is at

676
00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:02,399
Speaker 3: work right, and how he gets when he gets home

677
00:36:02,400 --> 00:36:05,400
Speaker 3: from work, and the things he sees, and you know,

678
00:36:05,440 --> 00:36:09,240
Speaker 3: we hear stories of how they see really horrible stuff

679
00:36:09,239 --> 00:36:11,440
Speaker 3: at work every day for years and years and years.

680
00:36:11,440 --> 00:36:16,040
Speaker 3: And it's especially with your particular culture in the fire service.

681
00:36:16,160 --> 00:36:19,960
Speaker 3: It's always taught to be suppressed and now I mean

682
00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:25,000
Speaker 3: more recently, it's getting talked about more and more not

683
00:36:25,160 --> 00:36:29,120
Speaker 3: to suppress those feelings. But you were one of those

684
00:36:29,400 --> 00:36:32,680
Speaker 3: firefighters that just kind of kept it all in. And

685
00:36:33,080 --> 00:36:38,600
Speaker 3: what happened when you were looking for Gabby and you

686
00:36:38,680 --> 00:36:42,920
Speaker 3: eventually found her, like explain to everyone what that was.

687
00:36:43,640 --> 00:36:48,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, I thought all that stuff, you know, because whether

688
00:36:48,160 --> 00:36:51,240
Speaker 1: it's right or wrong, you learn to suppress that because

689
00:36:51,719 --> 00:36:55,080
Speaker 1: you can't get emotionally attached. You can't let these things

690
00:36:55,120 --> 00:36:57,480
Speaker 1: affect you. You can't show emotion. You'll never be able

691
00:36:57,480 --> 00:37:00,360
Speaker 1: to do the job. You'll have a short career, you know.

692
00:37:00,400 --> 00:37:02,239
Speaker 1: And it makes you tougher, but you don't realize it

693
00:37:02,440 --> 00:37:04,440
Speaker 1: really takes a toll on you. You know, you start to

694
00:37:04,440 --> 00:37:07,520
Speaker 1: build this vicarious trauma, and it looks different for each person.

695
00:37:07,600 --> 00:37:11,800
Speaker 1: You don't know, you know, what call or what scene

696
00:37:11,840 --> 00:37:14,600
Speaker 1: or scenario might might trigger something in you. But I

697
00:37:14,600 --> 00:37:18,720
Speaker 1: thought all that stuff kind of made me impervious to anything.

698
00:37:18,800 --> 00:37:22,319
Speaker 1: Like I was, you know, I'm tough, like there's nothing

699
00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:24,520
Speaker 1: I haven't seen or done. I got this, and then

700
00:37:25,400 --> 00:37:28,000
Speaker 1: I wouldn't change me going out there at all, because

701
00:37:28,040 --> 00:37:31,880
Speaker 1: I still think I would rather myself have absorbed what

702
00:37:31,960 --> 00:37:35,319
Speaker 1: I did versus anybody else in the family. And so

703
00:37:35,440 --> 00:37:38,239
Speaker 1: when I got out there, you know, I did, I

704
00:37:38,320 --> 00:37:40,799
Speaker 1: was like mission focused, did everything you know I said

705
00:37:40,840 --> 00:37:43,720
Speaker 1: I was going to do. And then on September nineteenth

706
00:37:43,840 --> 00:37:45,640
Speaker 1: was the day that I got the phone call in

707
00:37:45,680 --> 00:37:48,680
Speaker 1: the morning, they from the FBI from my advocate. She

708
00:37:48,719 --> 00:37:51,640
Speaker 1: asked where I was told her. She asked if I

709
00:37:51,680 --> 00:37:54,640
Speaker 1: could get back to the hotel. They said, yeah, absolutely,

710
00:37:54,880 --> 00:37:57,600
Speaker 1: I'm about twenty minutes out from there, and we had

711
00:37:57,600 --> 00:37:59,360
Speaker 1: to deal with the hotel. They had a little conference

712
00:37:59,440 --> 00:38:02,560
Speaker 1: room set aside that I could use pretty much anytime,

713
00:38:02,760 --> 00:38:04,719
Speaker 1: and there were windows that looked at him to the

714
00:38:04,840 --> 00:38:07,759
Speaker 1: to the front of front of the hotel, and it

715
00:38:07,800 --> 00:38:11,200
Speaker 1: seemed like an eternity, but it wasn't. It was relatively

716
00:38:11,239 --> 00:38:14,400
Speaker 1: short order. I saw two black SUVs come pulling up,

717
00:38:14,480 --> 00:38:16,799
Speaker 1: lights and sirens, basically like jump the curb, and two

718
00:38:16,840 --> 00:38:19,560
Speaker 1: people get out, and one of them was reading my

719
00:38:19,719 --> 00:38:22,200
Speaker 1: victim advocate and the other one was Charlie Jones, who

720
00:38:22,200 --> 00:38:24,000
Speaker 1: I hadn't met at that point, but he was the

721
00:38:24,120 --> 00:38:28,719
Speaker 1: senior FBI agent in charge of the case. And they

722
00:38:28,760 --> 00:38:32,879
Speaker 1: came into the room and Charlie said, uh, sit down,

723
00:38:33,120 --> 00:38:35,759
Speaker 1: and sat down. I'm like, this can't be good, and

724
00:38:35,800 --> 00:38:37,040
Speaker 1: he's like, I don't know how to say this, but

725
00:38:37,080 --> 00:38:39,520
Speaker 1: I'm just gonna say it. He said, I found we

726
00:38:39,520 --> 00:38:42,560
Speaker 1: found remains consistent with your daughter, Gabby. There was a

727
00:38:42,560 --> 00:38:46,279
Speaker 1: news helicopter flying overhead. They were videoing us as we

728
00:38:46,360 --> 00:38:49,480
Speaker 1: found her. Body, and we need you to call your

729
00:38:49,520 --> 00:38:53,520
Speaker 1: family and tell them before this hits the news. And

730
00:38:53,640 --> 00:38:56,120
Speaker 1: prior to this, like what the rest of the world

731
00:38:56,160 --> 00:38:57,640
Speaker 1: was seeing, we were finding out at the same time

732
00:38:57,680 --> 00:38:59,359
Speaker 1: as everybody else. It wasn't like we were a privy

733
00:38:59,400 --> 00:39:03,120
Speaker 1: to any of that information for the most part. And so,

734
00:39:04,120 --> 00:39:05,640
Speaker 1: I mean, that's a lot to take in. And I

735
00:39:05,719 --> 00:39:08,160
Speaker 1: just went into the shock at that moment, and I'm

736
00:39:08,160 --> 00:39:12,040
Speaker 1: like trying to figure out what what he was saying.

737
00:39:12,560 --> 00:39:15,200
Speaker 1: And I said, Charlie, I'm like, what is what does

738
00:39:15,280 --> 00:39:19,319
Speaker 1: remains consistent mean? Like what does that mean? He's like, well,

739
00:39:19,320 --> 00:39:20,960
Speaker 1: we're pretty sure it's your daughter, but we won't know

740
00:39:21,040 --> 00:39:24,880
Speaker 1: until we do a forensic autopsy. And I said, well,

741
00:39:24,920 --> 00:39:27,400
Speaker 1: how how long does that take? He said, I don't know.

742
00:39:28,280 --> 00:39:29,960
Speaker 1: He's like, I don't know what the capability of the

743
00:39:29,960 --> 00:39:34,520
Speaker 1: Medical Examiner's office is here. It's it's not good. We

744
00:39:34,560 --> 00:39:36,480
Speaker 1: may have to bring in experts from out of state

745
00:39:36,680 --> 00:39:39,359
Speaker 1: to do this, and then it can take weeks and

746
00:39:39,360 --> 00:39:43,439
Speaker 1: then toxicology reports and this and that to figure out,

747
00:39:43,440 --> 00:39:45,200
Speaker 1: you know, manner and cause and all these other things.

748
00:39:45,200 --> 00:39:46,600
Speaker 1: He's like, it could be it could be a while.

749
00:39:48,239 --> 00:39:52,239
Speaker 1: And I'm like, there was another girl missing out here though,

750
00:39:52,360 --> 00:39:54,080
Speaker 1: like that looked just like her. We were getting a

751
00:39:54,080 --> 00:39:55,560
Speaker 1: lot of tips about her, like how do you how

752
00:39:55,560 --> 00:39:58,879
Speaker 1: do you know it's not her? And he's like, well,

753
00:39:58,680 --> 00:40:01,759
Speaker 1: we won't defend it know until you know, we get

754
00:40:01,760 --> 00:40:04,080
Speaker 1: the results of the autopsy and DNA and different things.

755
00:40:05,080 --> 00:40:07,719
Speaker 1: And I'm like, Charlie, I'm like, you asked me to

756
00:40:07,719 --> 00:40:10,960
Speaker 1: make the most important phone call of my life, but

757
00:40:11,000 --> 00:40:13,799
Speaker 1: you're saying there's a chance, a slight chance, but there's

758
00:40:13,800 --> 00:40:16,480
Speaker 1: a chance it's not her. He was like, it's light.

759
00:40:17,360 --> 00:40:18,880
Speaker 1: I said, you got to give me more than that.

760
00:40:19,440 --> 00:40:20,560
Speaker 1: I said, you really do. You got to give me

761
00:40:20,600 --> 00:40:22,480
Speaker 1: more than that because I got to make this phone call.

762
00:40:23,200 --> 00:40:24,840
Speaker 1: I'm like, I have to be one hundred percent certain,

763
00:40:26,160 --> 00:40:27,839
Speaker 1: and he said okay. He stepped out of the room

764
00:40:27,880 --> 00:40:30,279
Speaker 1: for for a minute. He came back in and he's like,

765
00:40:30,280 --> 00:40:31,800
Speaker 1: I'm going to show you some photos. And he showed

766
00:40:31,800 --> 00:40:35,200
Speaker 1: me photos from the from the crime scene, and so

767
00:40:35,239 --> 00:40:39,040
Speaker 1: I was able to identify her through her clothing, through

768
00:40:39,080 --> 00:40:46,680
Speaker 1: some other things. I can tell you every everything about

769
00:40:46,719 --> 00:40:48,359
Speaker 1: that scene. I can tell you every I can close

770
00:40:48,400 --> 00:40:49,960
Speaker 1: my eyes, I could picture it, you know. And there's

771
00:40:49,960 --> 00:40:53,000
Speaker 1: a lot I don't remember from then, but I can

772
00:40:53,000 --> 00:40:55,520
Speaker 1: tell you every moment of that day. I can. I

773
00:40:55,560 --> 00:40:57,799
Speaker 1: can close my eyes and walk you right to where

774
00:40:57,840 --> 00:41:03,680
Speaker 1: she she was located, which direction she was, all sorts

775
00:41:03,719 --> 00:41:07,400
Speaker 1: of other stuff. But I fell to the ground, you know,

776
00:41:07,719 --> 00:41:12,239
Speaker 1: crying immediately because like now it's like it's definitely really

777
00:41:12,520 --> 00:41:15,200
Speaker 1: it's real. And he's like, jimm you got to make

778
00:41:15,239 --> 00:41:17,520
Speaker 1: this call, and and so I did. I got my

779
00:41:17,560 --> 00:41:19,960
Speaker 1: wife on the phone, and I got her dad and

780
00:41:20,640 --> 00:41:23,359
Speaker 1: Tower on the phone, and I told him that they

781
00:41:23,480 --> 00:41:29,239
Speaker 1: found her. And I think the hardest part was one

782
00:41:29,280 --> 00:41:33,040
Speaker 1: we lost our daughter. Right at that point, we didn't

783
00:41:33,080 --> 00:41:39,239
Speaker 1: know how. And uh. I was like, I said, I

784
00:41:39,239 --> 00:41:41,920
Speaker 1: was going to bring her home. And then I said, okay,

785
00:41:42,000 --> 00:41:44,480
Speaker 1: go you know when when can I take her home?

786
00:41:46,000 --> 00:41:51,799
Speaker 1: And he said you can't. And so I was out

787
00:41:51,800 --> 00:41:53,880
Speaker 1: there like two days later they did the autopsy on her,

788
00:41:53,920 --> 00:41:55,799
Speaker 1: and then I'm like, okay, you guys did the autopsy today.

789
00:41:55,840 --> 00:41:59,399
Speaker 1: Can I take her home? And he said no, and

790
00:42:00,080 --> 00:42:01,760
Speaker 1: so like, you know, you should go home to your family,

791
00:42:02,000 --> 00:42:04,520
Speaker 1: and I said no, I don't want to go home.

792
00:42:04,920 --> 00:42:07,920
Speaker 1: I said, she's been alone in the wilderness. She was

793
00:42:07,960 --> 00:42:10,319
Speaker 1: discarded like a piece of trash. I said, I'll camp

794
00:42:10,360 --> 00:42:14,239
Speaker 1: outside this medical examiner's office until I'm ready to bring

795
00:42:14,360 --> 00:42:16,600
Speaker 1: you're ready to let me take her home? And they said, Jim,

796
00:42:16,719 --> 00:42:20,239
Speaker 1: you can't do that. And I never felt like a

797
00:42:20,280 --> 00:42:23,279
Speaker 1: bigger failure in my life at that moment, one as

798
00:42:23,320 --> 00:42:27,680
Speaker 1: a father, for failing to protect our daughter. And I'm

799
00:42:27,680 --> 00:42:29,760
Speaker 1: not getting any type of like gender rolling or anything

800
00:42:29,800 --> 00:42:31,640
Speaker 1: like that. I can only go by what was instilled

801
00:42:31,680 --> 00:42:33,719
Speaker 1: in me at a really young age by my grandfather,

802
00:42:33,920 --> 00:42:36,560
Speaker 1: and that was, you know, never bring dishonor to the

803
00:42:36,560 --> 00:42:40,440
Speaker 1: family name, live with integrity, and protect your family at

804
00:42:40,440 --> 00:42:42,640
Speaker 1: all costs. And you can mess up a lot of things,

805
00:42:42,680 --> 00:42:44,880
Speaker 1: but if you mess those up, you know, they were

806
00:42:44,880 --> 00:42:50,120
Speaker 1: pretty unforgivable. But I felt like a bigger failure as

807
00:42:50,480 --> 00:42:52,880
Speaker 1: a first responder, and we don't deal well with failure

808
00:42:53,680 --> 00:42:55,120
Speaker 1: because I said I was going to bring her home

809
00:42:55,160 --> 00:42:58,879
Speaker 1: and I couldn't, and I returned home without her, and

810
00:42:58,920 --> 00:43:03,520
Speaker 1: we had a funeral for her without her body, and

811
00:43:03,600 --> 00:43:05,799
Speaker 1: I think that was probably one of the hardest things

812
00:43:05,800 --> 00:43:06,040
Speaker 1: for me.

813
00:43:07,880 --> 00:43:10,719
Speaker 3: What did they I mean, they had to keep her

814
00:43:10,960 --> 00:43:15,840
Speaker 3: obviously because now it was a potential homicide investigation. So

815
00:43:17,600 --> 00:43:20,440
Speaker 3: were they able to explain that to you in a

816
00:43:20,480 --> 00:43:23,520
Speaker 3: way that at least you kind of understood why you

817
00:43:23,560 --> 00:43:24,600
Speaker 3: had to leave her there.

818
00:43:25,440 --> 00:43:28,400
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, they basically said, you know, they know it's

819
00:43:29,200 --> 00:43:31,720
Speaker 1: they know it's looking like a homicide. At that point,

820
00:43:32,680 --> 00:43:37,440
Speaker 1: you know, there wasn't anything too obvious like like gunshots

821
00:43:37,560 --> 00:43:40,359
Speaker 1: or you know, fatal stab wounds or anything like that.

822
00:43:41,640 --> 00:43:44,040
Speaker 1: She was positioned in a place or in a way

823
00:43:44,080 --> 00:43:48,080
Speaker 1: that you couldn't humanly possible put your own body in

824
00:43:48,120 --> 00:43:52,239
Speaker 1: by yourself. It was a staged crime scene, you know,

825
00:43:52,280 --> 00:43:53,959
Speaker 1: the way she was facing. She was in a left

826
00:43:54,000 --> 00:43:57,440
Speaker 1: lateral recumbent position, like like kind of tucked in with

827
00:43:57,480 --> 00:44:00,799
Speaker 1: all these blankets tucked in around her. Her boots were

828
00:44:00,800 --> 00:44:03,319
Speaker 1: placed right next to her. There was the remnants of

829
00:44:03,320 --> 00:44:08,120
Speaker 1: the campfire like five feet away from her. So they

830
00:44:08,200 --> 00:44:11,520
Speaker 1: knew that it was a homicide, and so they were

831
00:44:11,560 --> 00:44:15,840
Speaker 1: able to determine through the autopsy that the cause of

832
00:44:15,960 --> 00:44:19,200
Speaker 1: cause of death, cause of manner of death was manual

833
00:44:19,239 --> 00:44:25,319
Speaker 1: strangulation throttling blunt force trauma. And so at that point

834
00:44:25,360 --> 00:44:27,120
Speaker 1: they then they you know, they knew it was a homicide,

835
00:44:27,120 --> 00:44:29,320
Speaker 1: but they were still you know, running some additional tests

836
00:44:29,360 --> 00:44:31,279
Speaker 1: and things like that. They had sent some stuff to

837
00:44:31,320 --> 00:44:37,120
Speaker 1: the FBI crime lab and it wasn't until gosh, we

838
00:44:37,200 --> 00:44:39,400
Speaker 1: want to say this, this is September nineteenth. It was

839
00:44:39,440 --> 00:44:41,319
Speaker 1: the end of October by the time we were able to

840
00:44:41,320 --> 00:44:42,360
Speaker 1: go back and get her.

841
00:44:43,160 --> 00:44:46,000
Speaker 2: And that was after Brian was found dead.

842
00:44:46,040 --> 00:44:50,719
Speaker 1: Correct, Yeah, I think he was found Yeah, a little

843
00:44:50,800 --> 00:44:51,719
Speaker 1: little time after that.

844
00:44:52,680 --> 00:44:52,919
Speaker 2: Wow.

845
00:44:53,480 --> 00:44:58,359
Speaker 3: So once they figured out So when they when they

846
00:44:58,400 --> 00:45:01,880
Speaker 3: found her body, you're saying they right away they were like,

847
00:45:02,000 --> 00:45:04,520
Speaker 3: something is suspicious, just because of the way that she

848
00:45:04,640 --> 00:45:08,160
Speaker 3: was found. And then I'm sure you were also or

849
00:45:08,200 --> 00:45:12,040
Speaker 3: even they knew that the situation was just weird, that

850
00:45:12,120 --> 00:45:14,440
Speaker 3: he had taken the van back and everything.

851
00:45:14,520 --> 00:45:17,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, because they the one thing that they were able

852
00:45:17,560 --> 00:45:21,080
Speaker 1: to find was that he had taken her one of

853
00:45:21,080 --> 00:45:23,640
Speaker 1: her debit cards or credit cards, and he was using

854
00:45:23,680 --> 00:45:26,839
Speaker 1: it on the way home. So that was like the

855
00:45:26,880 --> 00:45:30,319
Speaker 1: first crime that they had him on. But he had

856
00:45:30,320 --> 00:45:33,000
Speaker 1: already gone, He had already gone missing at that point.

857
00:45:33,239 --> 00:45:36,440
Speaker 1: So that coupled with where she was found and how

858
00:45:36,480 --> 00:45:39,440
Speaker 1: she was found, you know, obviously led them to the

859
00:45:40,480 --> 00:45:42,839
Speaker 1: and then the autopsy thought, yeah, this is this is homicide.

860
00:45:44,000 --> 00:45:48,879
Speaker 3: So they went they went to his house to to investigate,

861
00:45:48,920 --> 00:45:50,120
Speaker 3: and he was gone already.

862
00:45:50,120 --> 00:45:52,400
Speaker 1: You're saying, Yeah, he was gone.

863
00:45:52,320 --> 00:45:56,840
Speaker 3: And the parents didn't really cooperate at all.

864
00:45:57,000 --> 00:46:00,600
Speaker 1: Uh, you know, I think they you know, they kind

865
00:46:00,600 --> 00:46:05,040
Speaker 1: of knew that he was in an area because they

866
00:46:05,040 --> 00:46:08,520
Speaker 1: had they had found his vehicle. I guess over in

867
00:46:08,560 --> 00:46:11,440
Speaker 1: that area it was going to get like a parking

868
00:46:11,480 --> 00:46:12,960
Speaker 1: ticket because now I had the park there row and

869
00:46:13,000 --> 00:46:15,040
Speaker 1: I so the parents had gone and brought the car home.

870
00:46:16,160 --> 00:46:18,480
Speaker 1: That time of year, the area that he was in,

871
00:46:19,640 --> 00:46:22,879
Speaker 1: it's really like a swamp area, and when they get

872
00:46:22,880 --> 00:46:24,839
Speaker 1: heavy rains, it just fills up. And it had gone

873
00:46:24,840 --> 00:46:28,239
Speaker 1: through a period of really really heavy rain in the

874
00:46:28,280 --> 00:46:31,839
Speaker 1: whole place was underwater, and so they had a lot

875
00:46:31,840 --> 00:46:34,440
Speaker 1: of difficulty, you know, searching for weeks through there between

876
00:46:34,600 --> 00:46:38,279
Speaker 1: airboats and four wheel drive vehicles trying to get in there.

877
00:46:39,080 --> 00:46:41,040
Speaker 1: And it wasn't until it really started to the water

878
00:46:41,080 --> 00:46:44,120
Speaker 1: receded that they were able to get into that area

879
00:46:44,360 --> 00:46:45,520
Speaker 1: and look for him.

880
00:46:46,360 --> 00:46:50,200
Speaker 2: Didn't the parents find him very quickly after they started looking.

881
00:46:50,920 --> 00:46:54,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, they found his within forty five minutes of them

882
00:46:55,120 --> 00:46:58,040
Speaker 1: being involved in the search. They went right to a

883
00:46:58,080 --> 00:46:59,920
Speaker 1: specific location and found his backpack.

884
00:47:02,480 --> 00:47:06,080
Speaker 3: So you guys go home and you have this funeral

885
00:47:06,120 --> 00:47:08,359
Speaker 3: for her, even though you didn't have her roomains yet

886
00:47:08,920 --> 00:47:14,920
Speaker 3: and what happens from there? How does your life? I

887
00:47:14,960 --> 00:47:18,719
Speaker 3: mean most people like me that haven't been through it,

888
00:47:18,800 --> 00:47:22,279
Speaker 3: but just every every person that has children are like,

889
00:47:22,360 --> 00:47:24,239
Speaker 3: how how does your life go on?

890
00:47:27,000 --> 00:47:28,759
Speaker 1: It was I mean, it was just it was a

891
00:47:28,800 --> 00:47:31,719
Speaker 1: really crazy time. I mean, you left with so many

892
00:47:32,080 --> 00:47:36,000
Speaker 1: unanswered questions, questions, so many what ifs, you know, should have,

893
00:47:36,040 --> 00:47:39,440
Speaker 1: could haves. You know, hindsight's always twenty twenty. You know,

894
00:47:39,480 --> 00:47:43,680
Speaker 1: you're just in shock, your numb. It was that year

895
00:47:43,760 --> 00:47:48,239
Speaker 1: was a really really tough here. In particular, my mom

896
00:47:48,280 --> 00:47:51,560
Speaker 1: had died in April before that, and my grandmother passed

897
00:47:51,560 --> 00:47:56,680
Speaker 1: away just a few days after Gabby's funeral, so you know,

898
00:47:56,719 --> 00:47:59,480
Speaker 1: we had that going on. I was dealing with some

899
00:47:59,640 --> 00:48:02,960
Speaker 1: health personal health issues too at the time, and so

900
00:48:02,960 --> 00:48:04,759
Speaker 1: there was just a lot going on, and like you're

901
00:48:04,760 --> 00:48:07,880
Speaker 1: walking around in like this fog, like just not knowing

902
00:48:07,920 --> 00:48:12,239
Speaker 1: like what's next. And when she first went missing, my

903
00:48:12,239 --> 00:48:15,759
Speaker 1: wife started, you know, a Facebook page, you know, with

904
00:48:15,840 --> 00:48:20,920
Speaker 1: a missing poster like helped find Gabby. And almost immediately

905
00:48:20,960 --> 00:48:23,440
Speaker 1: after all of this, we started receiving messages back from

906
00:48:24,160 --> 00:48:27,320
Speaker 1: from people saying that you know, they watched it unfold

907
00:48:27,480 --> 00:48:29,880
Speaker 1: like the rest of the world, and they realized that

908
00:48:29,920 --> 00:48:35,960
Speaker 1: they were in potentially lethal relationship, an abusive relationship, and

909
00:48:35,960 --> 00:48:39,200
Speaker 1: that they got out there seeking help and they attributed

910
00:48:39,239 --> 00:48:42,520
Speaker 1: to our daughter's story. They saw so many similarities. And

911
00:48:42,520 --> 00:48:44,600
Speaker 1: we started getting a lot of these messages really from

912
00:48:44,640 --> 00:48:46,800
Speaker 1: all over the world, not just here in the US.

913
00:48:47,160 --> 00:48:48,960
Speaker 1: And my wife said, we're going to start a foundation.

914
00:48:49,400 --> 00:48:50,799
Speaker 1: I don't know what that looks like. We're gonna we're

915
00:48:50,800 --> 00:48:55,239
Speaker 1: gonna start a foundation because it seems like so many

916
00:48:55,239 --> 00:48:59,200
Speaker 1: people can relate to her story, and you know what,

917
00:48:59,360 --> 00:49:01,400
Speaker 1: off if it can help others, then we're going to

918
00:49:01,440 --> 00:49:03,560
Speaker 1: We're going to start this foundation. And so we did,

919
00:49:04,719 --> 00:49:09,279
Speaker 1: and that was like in November, and that's kind of

920
00:49:10,280 --> 00:49:12,600
Speaker 1: what we did to kind of like start to focus

921
00:49:12,640 --> 00:49:16,600
Speaker 1: our grief, kind of channeling it, channeling it to helping others.

922
00:49:17,560 --> 00:49:18,960
Speaker 1: I mean, we were still going through a lot of

923
00:49:19,000 --> 00:49:23,560
Speaker 1: other stuff at that time. I think thankfully we had

924
00:49:23,920 --> 00:49:27,160
Speaker 1: the ability to get connected to crime victim advocates, get

925
00:49:27,160 --> 00:49:30,560
Speaker 1: our children into therapy, getting ourselves into therapy, and then

926
00:49:30,640 --> 00:49:33,080
Speaker 1: start dealing with the emotional end of it as well.

927
00:49:34,000 --> 00:49:37,000
Speaker 1: But really the foundation, I think is what has helped us,

928
00:49:37,200 --> 00:49:40,640
Speaker 1: you know, get through these last few years.

929
00:49:40,840 --> 00:49:43,120
Speaker 2: Well, you guys weren't only dealing with grief, but you

930
00:49:43,200 --> 00:49:45,479
Speaker 2: had a total media circus around you too.

931
00:49:46,560 --> 00:49:49,880
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, you know, there's there's a lot of speculation

932
00:49:50,000 --> 00:49:52,120
Speaker 1: on you know, why her story got so much attention.

933
00:49:53,360 --> 00:49:56,480
Speaker 1: You know, it was a quiet news cycle. It was

934
00:49:56,520 --> 00:50:01,359
Speaker 1: COVID going on and kind of spanned the country. There

935
00:50:02,000 --> 00:50:05,960
Speaker 1: are certain cases, certain people, depending on what you look like,

936
00:50:06,760 --> 00:50:08,960
Speaker 1: you will get a lot more media attention than others,

937
00:50:09,520 --> 00:50:12,480
Speaker 1: which is very unfortunate. And that's a question we get

938
00:50:12,520 --> 00:50:14,239
Speaker 1: from the media all the time, like, well, why do

939
00:50:14,280 --> 00:50:15,920
Speaker 1: you feel I got so much attention. I'm like, that's

940
00:50:15,920 --> 00:50:18,960
Speaker 1: a great question. Can you answer it? Because you're the media,

941
00:50:19,040 --> 00:50:21,680
Speaker 1: you know, why do you pick and choose? Yeah, and

942
00:50:21,800 --> 00:50:24,680
Speaker 1: so you know, you don't really get a straight answer

943
00:50:24,680 --> 00:50:26,920
Speaker 1: with that, but you know, the world really kind of

944
00:50:26,920 --> 00:50:29,399
Speaker 1: wrapped their arms around us. They gave us a lot

945
00:50:29,400 --> 00:50:33,880
Speaker 1: of support. I feel like if it didn't get that

946
00:50:33,960 --> 00:50:35,600
Speaker 1: much attention, I don't know if he would have ever

947
00:50:35,640 --> 00:50:38,480
Speaker 1: found her, because not long after they found her, the

948
00:50:38,520 --> 00:50:41,879
Speaker 1: weather out in Wyoming, which if you've ever been out there,

949
00:50:41,880 --> 00:50:44,560
Speaker 1: you can experience all three seasons, like in three of

950
00:50:44,560 --> 00:50:47,359
Speaker 1: the four seasons in one day. But it started to

951
00:50:47,400 --> 00:50:50,480
Speaker 1: get cold. It started to snow out there, and I

952
00:50:50,480 --> 00:50:52,440
Speaker 1: feel like if it started the snow out there, we

953
00:50:52,520 --> 00:50:54,879
Speaker 1: might not have been able to find her. But really,

954
00:50:54,960 --> 00:50:57,760
Speaker 1: the world gave gave Gabby a platform, and we felt

955
00:50:57,760 --> 00:51:01,560
Speaker 1: like it was up to us to continue to share

956
00:51:01,600 --> 00:51:04,799
Speaker 1: her story what she experienced to prevent it from happening

957
00:51:04,800 --> 00:51:05,400
Speaker 1: to other people.

958
00:51:06,960 --> 00:51:09,200
Speaker 3: So you you go back to living in New York,

959
00:51:09,280 --> 00:51:13,279
Speaker 3: and you eventually went back to being a firefighter, right,

960
00:51:13,320 --> 00:51:17,000
Speaker 3: you went back to your job, and but now your

961
00:51:17,040 --> 00:51:20,000
Speaker 3: life is totally different just because you not only because

962
00:51:20,000 --> 00:51:24,759
Speaker 3: you went through this tragedy, but also I hate to

963
00:51:24,800 --> 00:51:28,960
Speaker 3: say the word famous, but like you, your face was

964
00:51:29,000 --> 00:51:32,359
Speaker 3: all over the news and your We like to call

965
00:51:32,400 --> 00:51:35,919
Speaker 3: these deaths, you know, because on the website we cover

966
00:51:36,040 --> 00:51:39,279
Speaker 3: celebrity deaths, and it's it's like you become this celebrity.

967
00:51:39,360 --> 00:51:43,160
Speaker 3: But but not because of the tragedy, because of the

968
00:51:43,200 --> 00:51:45,680
Speaker 3: tragedy we call. We would say it's more of a

969
00:51:45,760 --> 00:51:50,000
Speaker 3: high profile case in this. But you know, now you're

970
00:51:50,080 --> 00:51:53,000
Speaker 3: at the point where you're going to showing up at

971
00:51:53,000 --> 00:51:55,920
Speaker 3: people's houses at calls and people might recognize you. You

972
00:51:55,960 --> 00:51:59,359
Speaker 3: go to the grocery store and people might recognize you.

973
00:52:00,520 --> 00:52:04,239
Speaker 3: Has that overall just been How do you feel that

974
00:52:04,320 --> 00:52:07,640
Speaker 3: experience has been. Is it helping you grieve because so

975
00:52:07,719 --> 00:52:10,359
Speaker 3: many people know your story or has it been you

976
00:52:10,400 --> 00:52:12,560
Speaker 3: think it's harder on you guys?

977
00:52:13,719 --> 00:52:16,359
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was different, I mean there was. I mean

978
00:52:16,400 --> 00:52:18,080
Speaker 1: we still get it to this day. I mean my

979
00:52:18,120 --> 00:52:20,480
Speaker 1: wife gets it a lot more. She'll be coming out

980
00:52:20,480 --> 00:52:22,200
Speaker 1: of the bathroom in the airport and somebody will be like,

981
00:52:22,200 --> 00:52:24,719
Speaker 1: oh my gosh and start crying when they see her.

982
00:52:25,400 --> 00:52:28,920
Speaker 1: It can be overwhelming at times. You know, I could

983
00:52:28,920 --> 00:52:31,360
Speaker 1: tell you that there was people that I've been friends

984
00:52:31,400 --> 00:52:34,440
Speaker 1: with for a long time who didn't even know how

985
00:52:34,480 --> 00:52:37,000
Speaker 1: to approach us after that, you know, And if I

986
00:52:37,080 --> 00:52:38,919
Speaker 1: was on their end, I probably wouldn't have known either.

987
00:52:38,960 --> 00:52:41,800
Speaker 1: You know, what do you say to somebody who experiences

988
00:52:41,880 --> 00:52:44,719
Speaker 1: something like this, it's you know, you don't ever think

989
00:52:44,760 --> 00:52:48,480
Speaker 1: about it. But it got it got really difficult, and

990
00:52:48,560 --> 00:52:51,680
Speaker 1: for me, you know, I dealt with a couple of

991
00:52:52,040 --> 00:52:55,600
Speaker 1: health things afterwards, and I kind of made lied to

992
00:52:55,640 --> 00:52:58,439
Speaker 1: my doctor to get me back to work sooner than later,

993
00:52:58,440 --> 00:53:00,279
Speaker 1: because I figured I got to get back to get

994
00:53:00,320 --> 00:53:02,000
Speaker 1: back to work right, you know, get back to the

995
00:53:02,040 --> 00:53:06,600
Speaker 1: place you know you feel so comfortable in and I

996
00:53:06,840 --> 00:53:09,520
Speaker 1: quickly realized that was a mistake for me. I shouldn't

997
00:53:09,520 --> 00:53:13,400
Speaker 1: have gone back. My head wasn't there. I still hadn't

998
00:53:13,400 --> 00:53:17,000
Speaker 1: addressed all of the things that like I just went

999
00:53:17,040 --> 00:53:20,399
Speaker 1: through and for me, like I was making mistakes at work.

1000
00:53:21,600 --> 00:53:25,680
Speaker 1: I was always really big into training with my firefighters,

1001
00:53:25,719 --> 00:53:29,160
Speaker 1: and like I wasn't motivated to do that anymore. And

1002
00:53:29,280 --> 00:53:33,560
Speaker 1: I quickly realized, like, you know, it's not just me,

1003
00:53:33,920 --> 00:53:38,400
Speaker 1: and it's the lives of my firefighters and their families,

1004
00:53:38,480 --> 00:53:40,680
Speaker 1: you know, expect me to keep them safe and bring

1005
00:53:40,719 --> 00:53:43,399
Speaker 1: them home safe. And you know, I couldn't have that.

1006
00:53:43,400 --> 00:53:46,120
Speaker 1: That weighed on me anymore. And so so I kind

1007
00:53:46,120 --> 00:53:48,600
Speaker 1: of put my papers in and I found a job

1008
00:53:48,680 --> 00:53:51,279
Speaker 1: down in Florida, still in a fire service, but not

1009
00:53:51,320 --> 00:53:55,759
Speaker 1: out in the field anymore. And you know, on top

1010
00:53:55,800 --> 00:53:57,759
Speaker 1: of that, it was because it was such a big

1011
00:53:57,800 --> 00:54:02,680
Speaker 1: media thing. You know, we would have news cameras or

1012
00:54:03,280 --> 00:54:06,719
Speaker 1: people taking photos or just rain them, people showing up

1013
00:54:06,760 --> 00:54:10,880
Speaker 1: at our front door, knocking on our door because the

1014
00:54:10,920 --> 00:54:13,160
Speaker 1: Lord told them to come speak to us, you know,

1015
00:54:13,400 --> 00:54:16,040
Speaker 1: and so like our children can't even go outside anymore,

1016
00:54:17,040 --> 00:54:18,920
Speaker 1: and so you know they're trying to live with that

1017
00:54:19,000 --> 00:54:23,080
Speaker 1: too and go back to school and you know, get

1018
00:54:23,160 --> 00:54:27,200
Speaker 1: bombarded with questions every single day from kids. And so

1019
00:54:27,680 --> 00:54:30,719
Speaker 1: between all of that and getting this job offer down here,

1020
00:54:30,920 --> 00:54:32,239
Speaker 1: you know, like, all right, maybe it's going to be

1021
00:54:32,280 --> 00:54:34,319
Speaker 1: a fresh start, which it has been for the last

1022
00:54:34,320 --> 00:54:37,919
Speaker 1: three years. You know, it's been a little bit more

1023
00:54:38,320 --> 00:54:40,520
Speaker 1: semblance of a normal life, I guess for them for

1024
00:54:40,560 --> 00:54:42,920
Speaker 1: the most part. And that was really important to us.

1025
00:54:45,000 --> 00:54:49,279
Speaker 3: So with your kids, because I do wonder about how

1026
00:54:49,360 --> 00:54:55,880
Speaker 3: families move on and just i mean, it's been a

1027
00:54:55,920 --> 00:55:00,560
Speaker 3: couple of years now, are things starting to resemble somewhat

1028
00:55:00,640 --> 00:55:03,520
Speaker 3: of just it's not the same life, but it's just

1029
00:55:03,600 --> 00:55:06,400
Speaker 3: a different life moving forward. But are you guys able

1030
00:55:06,480 --> 00:55:09,799
Speaker 3: to go on vacation and have a good time and

1031
00:55:09,880 --> 00:55:14,239
Speaker 3: laugh at dinner and just you know, try to heal

1032
00:55:14,320 --> 00:55:16,800
Speaker 3: from this charm and just move on in a way?

1033
00:55:17,480 --> 00:55:20,319
Speaker 1: Yeah, And it looks different each day. And you know

1034
00:55:20,360 --> 00:55:23,680
Speaker 1: there's like that old saying time heals all wounds. That's crap,

1035
00:55:24,160 --> 00:55:26,800
Speaker 1: it's not true. I'll tell you that grief looks differently

1036
00:55:28,800 --> 00:55:30,920
Speaker 1: as you go on. You know, it changes. And I'll

1037
00:55:30,960 --> 00:55:33,680
Speaker 1: say it's definitely changed a lot for our kids as

1038
00:55:33,719 --> 00:55:36,920
Speaker 1: they've gotten a little bit older and starting to realize

1039
00:55:36,920 --> 00:55:40,399
Speaker 1: and understand more and more. And so you know, they

1040
00:55:41,280 --> 00:55:43,640
Speaker 1: they still work with therapists, they still speak to them,

1041
00:55:43,680 --> 00:55:45,760
Speaker 1: so that's really important. So they have that outlet outside

1042
00:55:45,760 --> 00:55:48,640
Speaker 1: of us that they can talk to. But I'll say

1043
00:55:48,640 --> 00:55:50,920
Speaker 1: we're a lot more intentional with the things we do.

1044
00:55:51,120 --> 00:55:53,920
Speaker 1: Like we just did back in July a little staycation

1045
00:55:54,080 --> 00:55:56,200
Speaker 1: down here in Florida. You know, we went like an

1046
00:55:56,200 --> 00:55:59,799
Speaker 1: hour south and we just stayed by the beach and

1047
00:56:00,239 --> 00:56:02,080
Speaker 1: it was really like nothing. We went to the beach

1048
00:56:02,120 --> 00:56:03,719
Speaker 1: a couple of days, we kind of hung out in

1049
00:56:03,719 --> 00:56:08,640
Speaker 1: the house that we rented, and afterwards we kind of

1050
00:56:08,680 --> 00:56:10,080
Speaker 1: joked a little bit. We're like, you know, there wasn't

1051
00:56:10,080 --> 00:56:12,400
Speaker 1: a lot of a lot of pictures taken, and we

1052
00:56:12,440 --> 00:56:14,839
Speaker 1: realized because everybody was kind of in the moment while

1053
00:56:14,840 --> 00:56:17,879
Speaker 1: they were there. Just making sure that you know, you're

1054
00:56:17,880 --> 00:56:20,600
Speaker 1: taking advantage of that time and you're present in that

1055
00:56:20,719 --> 00:56:23,880
Speaker 1: time and we disconnected from everything, you know, from the

1056
00:56:23,880 --> 00:56:27,759
Speaker 1: outside world, and we're just together and we make sure

1057
00:56:27,800 --> 00:56:29,480
Speaker 1: now that you know, even if we're sitting on the

1058
00:56:29,520 --> 00:56:32,799
Speaker 1: couch at night watching you know, some mindless TV or whatever,

1059
00:56:32,880 --> 00:56:35,560
Speaker 1: that like, we're present in that moment with them and

1060
00:56:35,640 --> 00:56:39,000
Speaker 1: giving them their space to be able to express themselves

1061
00:56:39,320 --> 00:56:44,839
Speaker 1: and talk to us when they want to talk to us. So, yeah,

1062
00:56:45,080 --> 00:56:46,879
Speaker 1: it's important for them to know, like you know, bad

1063
00:56:46,960 --> 00:56:50,400
Speaker 1: things happen. Sometimes things are out of your control. As

1064
00:56:50,480 --> 00:56:52,680
Speaker 1: much as we'd like to think they are in our control,

1065
00:56:52,719 --> 00:56:57,440
Speaker 1: they're not. But you can heal, you can still continue

1066
00:56:57,440 --> 00:56:59,960
Speaker 1: to grieve, and you can have your days when you're happy,

1067
00:57:00,160 --> 00:57:01,600
Speaker 1: and then you can have your days when you're said

1068
00:57:01,680 --> 00:57:04,919
Speaker 1: that's okay too, And just know that we're all here

1069
00:57:04,960 --> 00:57:07,359
Speaker 1: to help each other and uplift each other and work

1070
00:57:07,360 --> 00:57:07,879
Speaker 1: with each other.

1071
00:57:09,320 --> 00:57:11,880
Speaker 3: So now you're doing a really great thing which is

1072
00:57:12,440 --> 00:57:14,960
Speaker 3: kind of a branch off of all of your training

1073
00:57:15,040 --> 00:57:19,640
Speaker 3: in yours as a firefighter first responder that you decided

1074
00:57:19,720 --> 00:57:22,920
Speaker 3: that you're going to start traveling. Well, you've started going

1075
00:57:23,000 --> 00:57:26,919
Speaker 3: around the country and talking about this, So tell tell

1076
00:57:27,000 --> 00:57:30,160
Speaker 3: us some of the things that you found out afterwards

1077
00:57:30,240 --> 00:57:33,640
Speaker 3: about the training of first responders as it pertains to

1078
00:57:33,720 --> 00:57:34,760
Speaker 3: domestic violence.

1079
00:57:35,480 --> 00:57:37,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I it also you know, for me, it was,

1080
00:57:38,280 --> 00:57:41,560
Speaker 1: you know, she was murdered by strangulation and I'm like,

1081
00:57:42,600 --> 00:57:47,120
Speaker 1: how does this happen? Like, you know, it's so intimated,

1082
00:57:47,240 --> 00:57:50,480
Speaker 1: so personal, and so I kind of started digging into

1083
00:57:50,560 --> 00:57:52,280
Speaker 1: the topic right away and finding out a lot more

1084
00:57:52,320 --> 00:57:56,440
Speaker 1: about strangulation and about the fact that even if somebody,

1085
00:57:56,440 --> 00:57:59,000
Speaker 1: an intimate partner, puts their hands around your neck one time,

1086
00:57:59,040 --> 00:58:01,280
Speaker 1: you're at a seven hundred fifty percent higher chance of

1087
00:58:01,360 --> 00:58:05,000
Speaker 1: being murdered by them. In the domestic violence situation, it's

1088
00:58:05,000 --> 00:58:07,840
Speaker 1: not a matter of if, but when that's.

1089
00:58:07,680 --> 00:58:10,400
Speaker 3: Like a really striking statistic, Actually.

1090
00:58:10,480 --> 00:58:13,960
Speaker 1: It is, it really is. And people who strangle are

1091
00:58:14,000 --> 00:58:16,040
Speaker 1: some of the most dangerous people who walk the face

1092
00:58:16,040 --> 00:58:20,440
Speaker 1: of the earth. When you talk about perpetrators who kill

1093
00:58:20,520 --> 00:58:23,440
Speaker 1: law enforcement in the line of duty, a large majority

1094
00:58:23,440 --> 00:58:28,560
Speaker 1: of those perpetrators have documented abuse of strangulation. Mass shooters, really,

1095
00:58:28,760 --> 00:58:33,520
Speaker 1: the list goes on and on, and strangulation is a

1096
00:58:33,560 --> 00:58:38,919
Speaker 1: preferred method because they can they literally have your life

1097
00:58:38,920 --> 00:58:41,440
Speaker 1: in their hands and they can just let go or

1098
00:58:41,480 --> 00:58:44,600
Speaker 1: not let go and have complete and full control. And

1099
00:58:44,720 --> 00:58:46,880
Speaker 1: less than fifty percent of victims who are strangled have

1100
00:58:46,960 --> 00:58:49,920
Speaker 1: any external marks in their body. There's very little signs.

1101
00:58:49,920 --> 00:58:53,760
Speaker 1: If there are signs, they're very subtle, and so there

1102
00:58:53,760 --> 00:58:58,400
Speaker 1: could be a multitude of underlying life threatening physical conditions

1103
00:58:58,400 --> 00:59:01,600
Speaker 1: that if they're not gotten to the hospital on time

1104
00:59:01,760 --> 00:59:03,360
Speaker 1: or within a certain amount of time that you know,

1105
00:59:03,360 --> 00:59:05,360
Speaker 1: it could be fatal for them, but there's all these

1106
00:59:05,440 --> 00:59:08,440
Speaker 1: very subtle symptoms. And while we were going through everything

1107
00:59:08,480 --> 00:59:12,160
Speaker 1: we were going through, I was in a court deposition

1108
00:59:12,640 --> 00:59:15,680
Speaker 1: where they were asking me about my training, and they

1109
00:59:15,680 --> 00:59:17,640
Speaker 1: got into my EMS training and asked if I had

1110
00:59:17,640 --> 00:59:20,600
Speaker 1: responded to domestic violence incidents and I said yes, and

1111
00:59:20,640 --> 00:59:22,960
Speaker 1: they said, tell me about your training and I said none.

1112
00:59:24,080 --> 00:59:26,160
Speaker 1: And it made me think about it because it's in

1113
00:59:26,240 --> 00:59:28,840
Speaker 1: our It's in our e MT textbook, you know, it's

1114
00:59:28,880 --> 00:59:31,000
Speaker 1: a couple of couple of paragraphs, but there's no questions

1115
00:59:31,040 --> 00:59:32,760
Speaker 1: on the state exam, so they don't really cover it.

1116
00:59:33,680 --> 00:59:36,040
Speaker 1: And so I started doing some research and looking around,

1117
00:59:36,080 --> 00:59:38,120
Speaker 1: and there are some some places that do it, you know,

1118
00:59:38,200 --> 00:59:41,560
Speaker 1: on a local level, they do DV training. There's two states,

1119
00:59:42,400 --> 00:59:46,280
Speaker 1: Tennessee and Kentucky that do require like four hours of training,

1120
00:59:47,520 --> 00:59:49,640
Speaker 1: but there's really nothing like across the board. And then

1121
00:59:49,680 --> 00:59:54,120
Speaker 1: I found some some surveys and research papers where they

1122
00:59:54,120 --> 00:59:57,320
Speaker 1: interviewed paramedics and EMTs, and I realized, you know, some

1123
00:59:57,400 --> 01:00:00,000
Speaker 1: of the data there, I was like, not very good,

1124
01:00:00,240 --> 01:00:02,680
Speaker 1: like some of their responses to the questions that were asked,

1125
01:00:02,920 --> 01:00:06,520
Speaker 1: and so I realized in my career that I'd unintentionally

1126
01:00:06,520 --> 01:00:09,440
Speaker 1: failed victims of domestic violence because I didn't know how

1127
01:00:09,480 --> 01:00:11,720
Speaker 1: to refer. I didn't know how to respond. I didn't

1128
01:00:11,720 --> 01:00:14,320
Speaker 1: know what trauma informed care really like, I knew what

1129
01:00:14,360 --> 01:00:16,160
Speaker 1: it was, but I don't think I applied it to them.

1130
01:00:17,160 --> 01:00:19,520
Speaker 1: And you know, I lived my career not ever wanting

1131
01:00:19,560 --> 01:00:21,520
Speaker 1: to come on a situation and not know what to

1132
01:00:21,560 --> 01:00:23,680
Speaker 1: do or who to call. But yet I responded to

1133
01:00:23,680 --> 01:00:25,400
Speaker 1: these calls and they never gave it a second thought.

1134
01:00:26,080 --> 01:00:28,480
Speaker 1: And so I put together I was a fire instructor,

1135
01:00:28,560 --> 01:00:31,960
Speaker 1: So putting together training programs isn't you know, a big

1136
01:00:32,000 --> 01:00:33,880
Speaker 1: deal for me? And so I put together a program,

1137
01:00:33,920 --> 01:00:38,439
Speaker 1: and really it's bringing nine to one dispatchers, firefighters who

1138
01:00:38,440 --> 01:00:43,840
Speaker 1: respond on EMS calls, our EMTs, paramedics, hospital staff, getting

1139
01:00:43,880 --> 01:00:48,120
Speaker 1: the domestic violence advocates, even our legal judicial partners, all

1140
01:00:48,160 --> 01:00:51,240
Speaker 1: in the room together and going through and really breaking

1141
01:00:51,280 --> 01:00:54,320
Speaker 1: down you know what domestic violence looks like. Talking about

1142
01:00:54,360 --> 01:00:56,920
Speaker 1: the statistics. I usually tell her to the area that

1143
01:00:56,960 --> 01:01:00,440
Speaker 1: I'm traveling to, and I give them their local statistics,

1144
01:01:01,400 --> 01:01:03,960
Speaker 1: talk about the non physical physical forms of abuse, the

1145
01:01:04,040 --> 01:01:08,440
Speaker 1: power control, and then I get into neurobiology and trauma

1146
01:01:08,560 --> 01:01:11,400
Speaker 1: and how it affects our brain, and then I get

1147
01:01:11,400 --> 01:01:15,120
Speaker 1: into strangulation and how that further complicates these these cases,

1148
01:01:15,760 --> 01:01:18,960
Speaker 1: how to respond to them, how to document things properly

1149
01:01:19,120 --> 01:01:21,480
Speaker 1: on on the EMS and nine to one dispatch end,

1150
01:01:22,360 --> 01:01:26,080
Speaker 1: and ultimately trying to get them transported to the hospital.

1151
01:01:26,280 --> 01:01:29,280
Speaker 1: And I always provide them with their with their local

1152
01:01:29,400 --> 01:01:33,280
Speaker 1: resources or national resources while I'm there that they can hopefully,

1153
01:01:33,680 --> 01:01:35,400
Speaker 1: you know, use put in their arsenal that when they

1154
01:01:35,440 --> 01:01:37,240
Speaker 1: go out there, at least if it's safe for them

1155
01:01:37,280 --> 01:01:39,800
Speaker 1: to do so, they can quietly refer you know, that

1156
01:01:39,800 --> 01:01:41,760
Speaker 1: that victim in that moment, because it's really a crucial

1157
01:01:41,760 --> 01:01:46,200
Speaker 1: time for them. If we can make a connection right

1158
01:01:46,240 --> 01:01:49,480
Speaker 1: off the bat, you know, and start regaining that sense

1159
01:01:49,480 --> 01:01:52,120
Speaker 1: of hope and somebody that's experiencing abuse and has lost

1160
01:01:52,120 --> 01:01:55,800
Speaker 1: all hope, that's really important. But if we don't do

1161
01:01:55,840 --> 01:01:58,880
Speaker 1: it right and our interaction with them is a negative one,

1162
01:02:00,120 --> 01:02:02,080
Speaker 1: you know, it just sets the tone how that's going

1163
01:02:02,160 --> 01:02:04,320
Speaker 1: to go from there on out, and it's not gonna

1164
01:02:04,320 --> 01:02:04,600
Speaker 1: be good.

1165
01:02:05,680 --> 01:02:08,880
Speaker 3: I feel like this information is good for not only

1166
01:02:08,920 --> 01:02:12,320
Speaker 3: first responders, but just everyone in general, you know, you

1167
01:02:12,440 --> 01:02:15,680
Speaker 3: work with. There was there was a woman we worked

1168
01:02:15,720 --> 01:02:23,520
Speaker 3: with at one point that she had like subconduct evil hemorrhage,

1169
01:02:23,640 --> 01:02:25,680
Speaker 3: and I just thought it was and we knew that

1170
01:02:25,720 --> 01:02:30,240
Speaker 3: she did, you know, have a rocky relationship sometimes and

1171
01:02:31,480 --> 01:02:34,040
Speaker 3: you come into work looking like that, and as a

1172
01:02:34,080 --> 01:02:37,240
Speaker 3: person that kind of knows that that could be caused

1173
01:02:37,280 --> 01:02:41,680
Speaker 3: by that, it's it's it's what do you What does

1174
01:02:41,720 --> 01:02:44,680
Speaker 3: the person do that doesn't have any control?

1175
01:02:44,760 --> 01:02:47,560
Speaker 2: You know? Can you explain what that is? For regular people?

1176
01:02:48,800 --> 01:02:52,040
Speaker 3: Oh, like me, It's like when the white of your

1177
01:02:52,080 --> 01:02:56,440
Speaker 3: eyeball looks bloody, Okay, not like bloodshot, Like it looks

1178
01:02:56,600 --> 01:02:59,080
Speaker 3: like it's bleeding because you have this thin membrane over

1179
01:02:59,160 --> 01:03:03,360
Speaker 3: top of your eye, and it's a bleed that's in

1180
01:03:03,440 --> 01:03:06,160
Speaker 3: between that membrane and your eyeball. So it looks like

1181
01:03:06,200 --> 01:03:08,600
Speaker 3: there's blood there. But if you touched it, it would

1182
01:03:08,640 --> 01:03:11,720
Speaker 3: be like blood underneath a piece of saran wrap covering

1183
01:03:11,720 --> 01:03:16,400
Speaker 3: your eyeball. Okay, So you could see it, and sometimes

1184
01:03:16,760 --> 01:03:20,440
Speaker 3: that could happen in a case of manual strangulation. So

1185
01:03:21,720 --> 01:03:24,600
Speaker 3: but it could happen like Joe Biden had it in

1186
01:03:24,600 --> 01:03:26,520
Speaker 3: his eye one day. You know, it could happen in

1187
01:03:26,560 --> 01:03:29,200
Speaker 3: old people. It could just happen. So you you can't

1188
01:03:29,240 --> 01:03:33,360
Speaker 3: just automatically say, oh, you got strangled last night because

1189
01:03:33,400 --> 01:03:39,240
Speaker 3: I see this, Yeah, happened naturally too. Yeah, so I

1190
01:03:39,280 --> 01:03:43,160
Speaker 3: guess that's where for For family members or coworkers or something.

1191
01:03:43,960 --> 01:03:50,080
Speaker 3: Some of the signs aren't as obvious because you might

1192
01:03:50,240 --> 01:03:52,800
Speaker 3: you might be able to see the thumb prints or

1193
01:03:52,840 --> 01:03:55,680
Speaker 3: something on a on a lighter skin person like myself,

1194
01:03:55,720 --> 01:03:58,240
Speaker 3: but darker skinned people you you might not even see

1195
01:03:58,240 --> 01:04:01,919
Speaker 3: a bruise, and a lot of the damage is done

1196
01:04:01,920 --> 01:04:04,720
Speaker 3: in the deeper tissues of the neck that you can't

1197
01:04:04,720 --> 01:04:05,840
Speaker 3: see into autopsy.

1198
01:04:06,880 --> 01:04:10,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, and like some of those signs that you see,

1199
01:04:12,040 --> 01:04:15,520
Speaker 1: if they are visible, they're still very subtle. Even if

1200
01:04:15,520 --> 01:04:19,360
Speaker 1: it's if it's some bruising or some fingernail marks, they

1201
01:04:19,360 --> 01:04:22,600
Speaker 1: could be very subtle. Some other other signs you might

1202
01:04:22,640 --> 01:04:27,360
Speaker 1: see as a tiki hemorrhaging, which is can be mistaken

1203
01:04:27,400 --> 01:04:29,680
Speaker 1: sometimes as like a skin condition or something like that.

1204
01:04:30,080 --> 01:04:32,680
Speaker 1: But really what that is is when there's increased pressure

1205
01:04:32,840 --> 01:04:35,960
Speaker 1: from not allowing the blood flow to leave. So you

1206
01:04:35,960 --> 01:04:39,640
Speaker 1: have your crowded arteries that pump oxygenated blood up, and

1207
01:04:39,680 --> 01:04:42,560
Speaker 1: then you have your jugular veins that take the deoxygenated

1208
01:04:42,560 --> 01:04:46,520
Speaker 1: blood away, and so if you restrict those jugular veins

1209
01:04:46,840 --> 01:04:50,040
Speaker 1: and those arteries are still pumping blood up, you start

1210
01:04:50,040 --> 01:04:53,000
Speaker 1: to build this pressure and the potikii is caused by

1211
01:04:53,040 --> 01:04:56,200
Speaker 1: like the smallest blood vessels in the head, they will

1212
01:04:56,200 --> 01:04:58,920
Speaker 1: start rupturing and you can see them in the face,

1213
01:04:59,520 --> 01:05:02,280
Speaker 1: in the scale, out the hairline, even in the eye,

1214
01:05:02,360 --> 01:05:06,120
Speaker 1: inside the mouth. But they can be very subtle too,

1215
01:05:06,760 --> 01:05:11,000
Speaker 1: and you may miss them. But it's some of the things,

1216
01:05:11,040 --> 01:05:14,440
Speaker 1: like you said that, it can also be caused by

1217
01:05:14,440 --> 01:05:21,120
Speaker 1: other things too, so like katikii, so childbirth, So sometimes

1218
01:05:21,120 --> 01:05:24,640
Speaker 1: women will experience from the you know, from trying to

1219
01:05:24,680 --> 01:05:28,360
Speaker 1: push push the child out can can rupture those scuba

1220
01:05:28,360 --> 01:05:33,280
Speaker 1: diving accidents. Forcefully vomiting or coughing very hard can also

1221
01:05:33,360 --> 01:05:33,880
Speaker 1: rupture those.

1222
01:05:33,920 --> 01:05:36,040
Speaker 3: I was just gonna say, I just last week, I

1223
01:05:36,240 --> 01:05:39,120
Speaker 3: like was drinking water and it went down the wrong way,

1224
01:05:39,160 --> 01:05:41,640
Speaker 3: you know, and I was coughing so hard, and the

1225
01:05:41,640 --> 01:05:44,720
Speaker 3: next morning it was like I had patikii on my cheeks.

1226
01:05:44,760 --> 01:05:49,160
Speaker 3: Like it just you've probably had it before, you know, Yeah,

1227
01:05:49,400 --> 01:05:51,520
Speaker 3: I mean when you were a kid throwing up drinking

1228
01:05:51,560 --> 01:05:54,840
Speaker 3: too much or something. It's like you know what I mean,

1229
01:05:55,480 --> 01:05:56,840
Speaker 3: everyone's seen them before.

1230
01:05:58,240 --> 01:06:00,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, And and like you said a lot that a

1231
01:06:00,400 --> 01:06:03,240
Speaker 1: lot of that damage occurs underneath, so you can have

1232
01:06:03,840 --> 01:06:09,160
Speaker 1: damage to you know, the larynx or your vocal cords.

1233
01:06:11,600 --> 01:06:13,800
Speaker 1: Kind of a little bit more rare, but it can happen.

1234
01:06:14,000 --> 01:06:17,240
Speaker 1: Is a dissection of the carotid artery where basically the

1235
01:06:17,360 --> 01:06:18,920
Speaker 1: like the inner wall of it will kind of like

1236
01:06:19,000 --> 01:06:21,040
Speaker 1: rip off a little bit. And then your body's always

1237
01:06:21,080 --> 01:06:24,040
Speaker 1: trying to repair itself when there's damage, so it starts

1238
01:06:24,080 --> 01:06:26,800
Speaker 1: sending you know, like more blood there, more platelets, and

1239
01:06:26,800 --> 01:06:30,480
Speaker 1: it starts to build a clot and then eventually, you know,

1240
01:06:30,840 --> 01:06:32,920
Speaker 1: it starts to narrow that carotid artery a little bit.

1241
01:06:33,280 --> 01:06:35,840
Speaker 1: And sometimes those those clots that it's sending there to

1242
01:06:35,880 --> 01:06:37,640
Speaker 1: repair it can break off and end up in your

1243
01:06:37,680 --> 01:06:39,320
Speaker 1: in your brain, and you can end up with a stroke,

1244
01:06:41,480 --> 01:06:45,520
Speaker 1: a traumatic brain injury. Somebody can suffer an anoxic seizure,

1245
01:06:45,560 --> 01:06:47,640
Speaker 1: which is due to lack of oxygen to the brain.

1246
01:06:48,360 --> 01:06:50,560
Speaker 1: So the one organ in your body that needs oxygen

1247
01:06:50,560 --> 01:06:54,080
Speaker 1: more than anything is the brain. And so when you

1248
01:06:54,160 --> 01:06:57,480
Speaker 1: start to restrict the blood flow to the brain, you

1249
01:06:57,520 --> 01:07:00,800
Speaker 1: start causing a media brain damage to it. And like

1250
01:07:00,800 --> 01:07:04,320
Speaker 1: one of the areas that really really loves oxygen is

1251
01:07:04,360 --> 01:07:07,720
Speaker 1: the hippocampus, which is basically the file cabinet, the memory

1252
01:07:07,760 --> 01:07:11,200
Speaker 1: bank of the brain. And so when you cut off

1253
01:07:11,400 --> 01:07:15,240
Speaker 1: oxygen to that very oftentimes people who have been strangled

1254
01:07:15,400 --> 01:07:19,400
Speaker 1: have very little memory of what occurred. On top of

1255
01:07:19,400 --> 01:07:22,600
Speaker 1: the neurobiology of trauma, how that actually reprograms the brain

1256
01:07:23,280 --> 01:07:25,440
Speaker 1: where they're in a constant fight or flight. They're not

1257
01:07:25,520 --> 01:07:28,760
Speaker 1: in their front brain, their rational brain, so they have

1258
01:07:28,800 --> 01:07:32,959
Speaker 1: an overactive amigdala, which is that fight or flight piece

1259
01:07:33,000 --> 01:07:35,640
Speaker 1: that's always looking for danger, that's in a hypervigilant state,

1260
01:07:36,760 --> 01:07:41,480
Speaker 1: continuously dumping like cortisol and adrenaline into our body to

1261
01:07:41,840 --> 01:07:45,479
Speaker 1: react to these situations. You add strangulation, where you now

1262
01:07:45,880 --> 01:07:48,400
Speaker 1: restrict the flow of oxygen and blood to the brain.

1263
01:07:48,960 --> 01:07:52,160
Speaker 1: Their memory is completely gone, and so they don't look

1264
01:07:52,240 --> 01:07:55,520
Speaker 1: like very credible people. They look like they're lying or

1265
01:07:55,640 --> 01:07:57,560
Speaker 1: pieces of their memory are coming back, you know, a

1266
01:07:57,560 --> 01:07:59,880
Speaker 1: little bit out of time. But if we don't get

1267
01:07:59,880 --> 01:08:03,120
Speaker 1: to the hospital, if they've if they've been strangled, a

1268
01:08:03,160 --> 01:08:05,960
Speaker 1: lot of these injuries and these underlying injuries and the

1269
01:08:06,040 --> 01:08:08,400
Speaker 1: symptoms are so subtle. Sometimes it could be like a

1270
01:08:08,440 --> 01:08:12,000
Speaker 1: scratchy throat, or like a hoarse voice, or a kind

1271
01:08:12,040 --> 01:08:15,400
Speaker 1: of coughing a little bit or constantly clearing their throat,

1272
01:08:15,520 --> 01:08:20,800
Speaker 1: or their inability to swallow. In more severe instances, they

1273
01:08:20,920 --> 01:08:24,400
Speaker 1: might have urinated or defecated, which is a sign of

1274
01:08:24,439 --> 01:08:28,519
Speaker 1: a very prolonged and serious strangulation. But if we're not

1275
01:08:28,560 --> 01:08:30,679
Speaker 1: getting them to the hospital to do a CTA scan,

1276
01:08:31,760 --> 01:08:33,960
Speaker 1: we may miss these underlying injuries and they might not.

1277
01:08:34,560 --> 01:08:36,560
Speaker 1: It might not be fatal immediately, but it could be

1278
01:08:36,640 --> 01:08:38,920
Speaker 1: days weeks later where they suffer a fatal stroke or

1279
01:08:39,240 --> 01:08:40,719
Speaker 1: something from that incident.

1280
01:08:42,080 --> 01:08:46,559
Speaker 3: Have you found anything in your research with people who

1281
01:08:46,640 --> 01:08:49,960
Speaker 3: because this is becoming more popular. We've talked about this

1282
01:08:50,040 --> 01:08:53,719
Speaker 3: on a news story in this year about people who

1283
01:08:53,840 --> 01:08:58,360
Speaker 3: enjoy partaking in strangulation during sexual activity.

1284
01:08:59,520 --> 01:09:03,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's that's something that I can't think of the

1285
01:09:03,320 --> 01:09:06,639
Speaker 1: one organization, but there's one of them that's talks about

1286
01:09:06,680 --> 01:09:09,439
Speaker 1: like the sexual rights of people and stuff. And I

1287
01:09:09,880 --> 01:09:11,519
Speaker 1: believe they had just recently come out and said that

1288
01:09:11,560 --> 01:09:16,280
Speaker 1: they no longer support strangulation during sexual intercourse.

1289
01:09:16,720 --> 01:09:17,160
Speaker 3: But it is.

1290
01:09:19,240 --> 01:09:21,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah they did, but now that the data is

1291
01:09:21,360 --> 01:09:24,720
Speaker 1: coming out about how dangerous it is. Because even if

1292
01:09:24,800 --> 01:09:27,880
Speaker 1: if that's something that you're into and you know, you

1293
01:09:28,160 --> 01:09:34,599
Speaker 1: get like a notarized, signed contract, whatever, and then somebody

1294
01:09:34,640 --> 01:09:38,360
Speaker 1: passes away during that during that time, the other person

1295
01:09:38,439 --> 01:09:39,920
Speaker 1: is still going to go to jail for it because

1296
01:09:39,920 --> 01:09:44,120
Speaker 1: they didn't consent to being killed. And honestly, strangulation, you know,

1297
01:09:44,240 --> 01:09:46,439
Speaker 1: a lot of people believe it should be attempted attempted

1298
01:09:46,520 --> 01:09:50,400
Speaker 1: murder because without blood or braining, h blood or oxygen

1299
01:09:50,400 --> 01:09:54,280
Speaker 1: to your brain, you can't live. And so, uh it's

1300
01:09:54,320 --> 01:09:57,280
Speaker 1: something that's very popular. Uh starting to see it more

1301
01:09:57,280 --> 01:10:01,559
Speaker 1: and more in high school and uh college kids. And

1302
01:10:01,600 --> 01:10:05,160
Speaker 1: it's not normal and it's causing irreversible damage each and

1303
01:10:05,200 --> 01:10:08,639
Speaker 1: every time it's done, and really need to be bringing

1304
01:10:08,640 --> 01:10:11,599
Speaker 1: a lot more attention around it.

1305
01:10:11,640 --> 01:10:17,759
Speaker 3: Is there any kind of correlation with people who decide

1306
01:10:17,760 --> 01:10:21,320
Speaker 3: to take to partake in that during sexual activity and

1307
01:10:23,360 --> 01:10:27,280
Speaker 3: end up doing strangulation as a form of violence towards

1308
01:10:27,280 --> 01:10:27,879
Speaker 3: their partner.

1309
01:10:30,160 --> 01:10:32,600
Speaker 1: It might be. I'm not one hundred percent certain of

1310
01:10:33,040 --> 01:10:38,720
Speaker 1: the numbers, but I know oftentimes we've seen cases out

1311
01:10:38,760 --> 01:10:42,920
Speaker 1: there where they'll use the argument that well, we did

1312
01:10:42,920 --> 01:10:45,120
Speaker 1: it during sexual intercourse and there was an accident, I

1313
01:10:45,120 --> 01:10:48,559
Speaker 1: didn't mean the killer. But yet there's like abuse leading

1314
01:10:48,640 --> 01:10:51,559
Speaker 1: up to that point. And so we've seen it use

1315
01:10:51,600 --> 01:10:54,600
Speaker 1: as an argument, you know, for defense that you know

1316
01:10:54,640 --> 01:10:57,360
Speaker 1: it was consensual, it just went bad. But the exact

1317
01:10:57,439 --> 01:10:58,960
Speaker 1: numbers I'm not certain on that.

1318
01:10:59,200 --> 01:11:03,120
Speaker 3: So the story that we did do you remember this

1319
01:11:03,320 --> 01:11:05,760
Speaker 3: right in the news that it was like they were

1320
01:11:05,800 --> 01:11:08,800
Speaker 3: talking about kids, like he was saying young teenagers and

1321
01:11:08,840 --> 01:11:12,160
Speaker 3: college aged kids that that did that during sex, and

1322
01:11:12,240 --> 01:11:15,000
Speaker 3: the number was super high. It was you just couldn't

1323
01:11:15,040 --> 01:11:18,680
Speaker 3: believe how high it was. It was some abnormal percentage.

1324
01:11:19,200 --> 01:11:21,920
Speaker 3: You just were thinking, Wow, I can't believe this many

1325
01:11:22,000 --> 01:11:23,160
Speaker 3: kids are doing this.

1326
01:11:23,479 --> 01:11:25,920
Speaker 2: I mean when I was in high school back in

1327
01:11:26,240 --> 01:11:28,960
Speaker 2: twosand and nine to twenty thirteen, there was a game

1328
01:11:29,000 --> 01:11:31,840
Speaker 2: called the choking Game that was popular, and it was

1329
01:11:32,280 --> 01:11:34,880
Speaker 2: it's so idiotic to think about kids doing this. But

1330
01:11:35,160 --> 01:11:37,880
Speaker 2: it's like all these other horrible TikTok trends we cover,

1331
01:11:38,000 --> 01:11:38,280
Speaker 2: you know.

1332
01:11:40,080 --> 01:11:43,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's that's I remember when that was going on. Yeah,

1333
01:11:43,800 --> 01:11:48,040
Speaker 1: absolutely terrible, and I think getting a lot more education

1334
01:11:48,280 --> 01:11:51,760
Speaker 1: out there about it, because you know, your neck is

1335
01:11:51,800 --> 01:11:56,040
Speaker 1: just such a vulnerable place. Your life literally runs through

1336
01:11:56,040 --> 01:11:58,320
Speaker 1: your neck, you know when you think about it, and

1337
01:11:58,479 --> 01:12:01,599
Speaker 1: it was I mean, you're final cord. You know, your

1338
01:12:01,600 --> 01:12:05,280
Speaker 1: ability to eat, breathe, blood flow, like everything's there and

1339
01:12:05,280 --> 01:12:11,200
Speaker 1: it is. It is so vulnerable that you know, we

1340
01:12:11,240 --> 01:12:14,880
Speaker 1: should be protecting that at all costs, not doing self

1341
01:12:14,920 --> 01:12:17,120
Speaker 1: harm to ourselves, you know in the name of like

1342
01:12:17,280 --> 01:12:23,440
Speaker 1: views online and or for sexual gratification. You know, it's

1343
01:12:23,439 --> 01:12:26,240
Speaker 1: a lot more education is needed on it. And I

1344
01:12:26,280 --> 01:12:30,400
Speaker 1: know my wife and Tara, Gabby's a bonus mom. They

1345
01:12:30,400 --> 01:12:34,560
Speaker 1: do a lot of you know, talks around colleges and

1346
01:12:35,080 --> 01:12:37,400
Speaker 1: starting to get into some high schools and starting to

1347
01:12:37,439 --> 01:12:41,439
Speaker 1: talk about a lot more that because people think it's normal,

1348
01:12:41,600 --> 01:12:44,639
Speaker 1: because you know, kids these days have access to the

1349
01:12:44,680 --> 01:12:51,919
Speaker 1: Internet at younger and younger ages, oftentimes to pornographic websites

1350
01:12:51,960 --> 01:12:56,120
Speaker 1: where things like that are normalized, and it's not. It's

1351
01:12:56,160 --> 01:12:58,439
Speaker 1: not normal. It's not normal. So they perceive it to

1352
01:12:58,439 --> 01:13:00,400
Speaker 1: be something that you know, they should be doing or

1353
01:13:00,400 --> 01:13:03,160
Speaker 1: they can be doing or whatever. But it's dangerous and

1354
01:13:03,360 --> 01:13:04,120
Speaker 1: they need to know that.

1355
01:13:06,280 --> 01:13:09,880
Speaker 3: Where's the Gabby Patito Foundation? Now, Like, what are you

1356
01:13:09,920 --> 01:13:16,080
Speaker 3: guys working on specific like a specific area or just

1357
01:13:16,280 --> 01:13:19,840
Speaker 3: general education. How's it broken up?

1358
01:13:20,520 --> 01:13:23,160
Speaker 1: So, yeah, we do a couple different areas that we

1359
01:13:23,200 --> 01:13:25,800
Speaker 1: work on. So Gabby's dad, Joe, he spends a lot

1360
01:13:25,800 --> 01:13:31,519
Speaker 1: of time working on legislative stuff and or bringing attention

1361
01:13:31,680 --> 01:13:39,200
Speaker 1: to laws. So lethality assessment programs, he's been successful of

1362
01:13:39,200 --> 01:13:43,000
Speaker 1: getting that pass here in Florida, working with the sheriffs

1363
01:13:43,000 --> 01:13:45,519
Speaker 1: down here about that. With that in Utah, I think

1364
01:13:45,560 --> 01:13:48,280
Speaker 1: he's working on New York right now as well. So

1365
01:13:48,280 --> 01:13:52,040
Speaker 1: that's one area. Lethality assessment is a series of questions,

1366
01:13:53,200 --> 01:13:56,439
Speaker 1: their evidence based questions. They were developed by doctor Jackie

1367
01:13:56,479 --> 01:14:01,320
Speaker 1: Campbell and a John Hopkins University, and so there are

1368
01:14:01,320 --> 01:14:03,120
Speaker 1: a series of not just a series of questions that

1369
01:14:03,200 --> 01:14:05,960
Speaker 1: law enforcement can ask when they're called to the scene

1370
01:14:06,000 --> 01:14:09,160
Speaker 1: of a domestic incident, but also provides them additional training

1371
01:14:09,160 --> 01:14:13,880
Speaker 1: how to do trauma informed questioning, and those questions, depending

1372
01:14:13,920 --> 01:14:18,040
Speaker 1: on how that person answers, can help determine the potential

1373
01:14:18,120 --> 01:14:22,440
Speaker 1: level of lethality they're in. And if they are identified

1374
01:14:22,479 --> 01:14:25,880
Speaker 1: as being in a highly lethal relationship, then at that

1375
01:14:26,040 --> 01:14:29,799
Speaker 1: time they're also to work with their local domestic violence

1376
01:14:29,880 --> 01:14:33,559
Speaker 1: organization and they will connect them right at that moment

1377
01:14:33,560 --> 01:14:37,559
Speaker 1: to a domestic violence advocate if they wish, and start

1378
01:14:37,600 --> 01:14:41,320
Speaker 1: safety planning for that person. So it's a real critical

1379
01:14:41,479 --> 01:14:45,439
Speaker 1: time to start that safety planning process, and it's been

1380
01:14:45,479 --> 01:14:47,760
Speaker 1: known to save lives. So that's one area that we

1381
01:14:47,800 --> 01:14:50,080
Speaker 1: do a lot of work on. I mean, there's some

1382
01:14:50,120 --> 01:14:54,439
Speaker 1: other lethality assessment programs out there that are all known

1383
01:14:54,479 --> 01:14:58,960
Speaker 1: to help save lives. My wife and Tara, Gabby's Bonus Bond,

1384
01:14:59,040 --> 01:15:02,880
Speaker 1: they do a a lot of the college education talks

1385
01:15:02,880 --> 01:15:04,960
Speaker 1: and stuff like that. So they'll go around and they'll

1386
01:15:05,000 --> 01:15:08,880
Speaker 1: do a lot of discussions on team dating, violence, healthy boundaries,

1387
01:15:09,040 --> 01:15:12,800
Speaker 1: respectful relationships. Because so many people related with gabby story.

1388
01:15:12,840 --> 01:15:16,720
Speaker 1: You know, it's these kids they see, you know, these

1389
01:15:16,760 --> 01:15:21,200
Speaker 1: people on TikTok or Instagram or wherever, and they see

1390
01:15:21,200 --> 01:15:24,439
Speaker 1: these lives that they believe are picture perfect, you know,

1391
01:15:24,640 --> 01:15:27,680
Speaker 1: and Gabby's life look like that, where so many young

1392
01:15:27,680 --> 01:15:30,120
Speaker 1: people want to emulate those lives and be like that,

1393
01:15:30,360 --> 01:15:32,719
Speaker 1: only to find out that it wasn't so picture perfect,

1394
01:15:33,640 --> 01:15:36,120
Speaker 1: and so they relate to it. So they use Gabby's

1395
01:15:36,120 --> 01:15:38,160
Speaker 1: story to kind of connect with them and talk about

1396
01:15:38,240 --> 01:15:41,840
Speaker 1: what's healthy, what's not, red flags, things to look out for,

1397
01:15:43,160 --> 01:15:46,320
Speaker 1: how to keep yourself safe. And then I spend a

1398
01:15:46,360 --> 01:15:49,120
Speaker 1: lot of time on the first responder training stuff.

1399
01:15:50,680 --> 01:15:53,559
Speaker 3: What does if there's a person that is in a

1400
01:15:53,600 --> 01:15:57,879
Speaker 3: situation like this that might be listening right now, I'm

1401
01:15:57,960 --> 01:16:01,120
Speaker 3: just curious because I've never personally experienced it. But let's

1402
01:16:01,120 --> 01:16:04,800
Speaker 3: say you're married and you have kids and you're in

1403
01:16:04,800 --> 01:16:07,800
Speaker 3: a situation where your husband's doing this that do they

1404
01:16:07,920 --> 01:16:10,799
Speaker 3: they provide you somewhere to live and get you away

1405
01:16:10,840 --> 01:16:12,880
Speaker 3: from this person? Like, how does that work?

1406
01:16:13,600 --> 01:16:17,160
Speaker 1: Yeah? It depends, you know, So everybody's situation is unique

1407
01:16:17,160 --> 01:16:19,439
Speaker 1: to them, so there's really no blanket answer for it.

1408
01:16:19,520 --> 01:16:22,120
Speaker 1: And that's why getting on the phone with a domestic

1409
01:16:22,360 --> 01:16:26,799
Speaker 1: violence advocate is paramount because they can gear a safety

1410
01:16:26,800 --> 01:16:30,320
Speaker 1: plan specifically to you and what you're going through. But

1411
01:16:30,439 --> 01:16:32,240
Speaker 1: some of the things that they do have out there

1412
01:16:32,280 --> 01:16:36,320
Speaker 1: are shelter services, so if they if they need to

1413
01:16:36,320 --> 01:16:37,920
Speaker 1: get out, they need a safe place to stay, they

1414
01:16:37,960 --> 01:16:42,160
Speaker 1: do have shelter services. They'll have some of them will

1415
01:16:42,160 --> 01:16:44,639
Speaker 1: have some financial help to give you a hand with that,

1416
01:16:45,840 --> 01:16:50,040
Speaker 1: depending on the situation. There's also some transitional housing options

1417
01:16:50,040 --> 01:16:54,320
Speaker 1: that some organizations have, counseling for you when your kids

1418
01:16:54,360 --> 01:16:57,800
Speaker 1: while you're there, assistants trying to navigate the very complicated

1419
01:16:57,880 --> 01:17:01,640
Speaker 1: legal system that we have, so it all kind of

1420
01:17:01,680 --> 01:17:04,639
Speaker 1: it's all kind of specific and one of the hardest

1421
01:17:04,640 --> 01:17:08,040
Speaker 1: things I think for a lot of people to realize

1422
01:17:08,120 --> 01:17:10,400
Speaker 1: is you know, why don't they just leave? Why don't

1423
01:17:10,400 --> 01:17:13,519
Speaker 1: they just get out? Well, it's not that simple one.

1424
01:17:14,320 --> 01:17:17,479
Speaker 1: There's so many reasons why they don't leave. We know

1425
01:17:17,600 --> 01:17:22,479
Speaker 1: that from anytime there's a separation or from the time

1426
01:17:22,560 --> 01:17:24,559
Speaker 1: someone decides they want to want to leave in an

1427
01:17:24,600 --> 01:17:27,320
Speaker 1: abusive relationship, that's the most dangerous time for that person.

1428
01:17:28,080 --> 01:17:30,880
Speaker 1: And more than seventy percent of the homicides domestic violence

1429
01:17:30,920 --> 01:17:34,000
Speaker 1: homicides occur after a separation period of when they're trying

1430
01:17:34,040 --> 01:17:37,000
Speaker 1: to leave. So really having that safety plan is important.

1431
01:17:37,640 --> 01:17:40,400
Speaker 1: And so that kind of looks different for every person.

1432
01:17:40,680 --> 01:17:42,519
Speaker 1: And sometimes we you know, we see it in our

1433
01:17:42,560 --> 01:17:44,120
Speaker 1: friends or our family. We want to rip them out

1434
01:17:44,120 --> 01:17:46,760
Speaker 1: of that situation. But that's not the best thing either,

1435
01:17:46,800 --> 01:17:49,920
Speaker 1: And it's it's so difficult to sit there and know

1436
01:17:50,000 --> 01:17:53,840
Speaker 1: there's resources out there, but they won't go until they're ready.

1437
01:17:54,000 --> 01:17:56,679
Speaker 1: And so if you see that and somebody's experiencing that,

1438
01:17:57,200 --> 01:17:59,519
Speaker 1: you know, just to continue to be there and support

1439
01:17:59,560 --> 01:18:03,720
Speaker 1: them and validate them and reassure them you know that

1440
01:18:03,760 --> 01:18:06,479
Speaker 1: you're there for them. Don't don't give them multimatums like

1441
01:18:06,560 --> 01:18:09,240
Speaker 1: you know, you know, if you don't leave, you know,

1442
01:18:09,280 --> 01:18:11,320
Speaker 1: don't call me again. You know, I'm tired of I'm

1443
01:18:11,360 --> 01:18:13,240
Speaker 1: not dealing with this anymore. They don't they don't need that,

1444
01:18:13,280 --> 01:18:18,040
Speaker 1: they need to be supported. So it is very difficult,

1445
01:18:18,160 --> 01:18:21,280
Speaker 1: but it's very specific to each each person's needs.

1446
01:18:22,720 --> 01:18:26,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's cool. It's cool that there's resources available because

1447
01:18:26,800 --> 01:18:27,400
Speaker 3: I think that.

1448
01:18:29,200 --> 01:18:29,599
Speaker 1: Obvious.

1449
01:18:29,720 --> 01:18:33,000
Speaker 3: Like obviously, if you're in college and you have a boyfriend,

1450
01:18:33,240 --> 01:18:37,120
Speaker 3: it's a little bit easier. It's easier to leave from

1451
01:18:37,160 --> 01:18:40,880
Speaker 3: a fine you know, from a standpoint of uh, I

1452
01:18:40,880 --> 01:18:44,760
Speaker 3: don't know what the word. I'm trying to just like

1453
01:18:44,800 --> 01:18:49,439
Speaker 3: a procedural kind of thing because you're not sharing a

1454
01:18:49,479 --> 01:18:52,439
Speaker 3: house with them, maybe in a mortgage and have kids

1455
01:18:52,479 --> 01:18:55,960
Speaker 3: and have like all these this really in depth like

1456
01:18:56,040 --> 01:19:01,120
Speaker 3: intertwined life. But yeah, even emotionally, it's it's still just

1457
01:19:01,160 --> 01:19:03,519
Speaker 3: as hard. So it's it's nice to know that there's

1458
01:19:03,640 --> 01:19:04,479
Speaker 3: resources out.

1459
01:19:04,400 --> 01:19:07,320
Speaker 1: There that will And that's a tactic if somebody has

1460
01:19:07,640 --> 01:19:11,080
Speaker 1: children with that with the person abusing them, or even pets,

1461
01:19:11,520 --> 01:19:13,519
Speaker 1: you know, that's a tactic that they use. Even after

1462
01:19:13,640 --> 01:19:16,320
Speaker 1: if they do get out and they they're able to

1463
01:19:17,120 --> 01:19:19,320
Speaker 1: you know, either divorce or in the relationship and and

1464
01:19:19,600 --> 01:19:23,280
Speaker 1: try to move on. There's still post separation abuse that occurs,

1465
01:19:23,600 --> 01:19:28,120
Speaker 1: and they use children oftentimes for that, pets, all sorts

1466
01:19:28,160 --> 01:19:31,280
Speaker 1: of other things to continue to try to keep that

1467
01:19:31,320 --> 01:19:34,360
Speaker 1: control over that person. And and that's the thing to

1468
01:19:34,479 --> 01:19:37,800
Speaker 1: remember too, is you know, people sometimes think that the

1469
01:19:37,880 --> 01:19:41,120
Speaker 1: abuser has a mental health issue or something like that,

1470
01:19:42,720 --> 01:19:44,400
Speaker 1: but the majority of the time it's it's not a

1471
01:19:44,400 --> 01:19:49,200
Speaker 1: mental health issue because they do all these tactics behind

1472
01:19:49,200 --> 01:19:53,240
Speaker 1: closed doors where nobody can see it, but when they

1473
01:19:53,240 --> 01:19:55,920
Speaker 1: go out into the public, you know, they're they're this

1474
01:19:56,000 --> 01:19:58,920
Speaker 1: picture perfect person sometimes. And that's another thing that makes

1475
01:19:58,960 --> 01:20:02,360
Speaker 1: it hard for survivors who want to leave, is because

1476
01:20:02,360 --> 01:20:04,200
Speaker 1: who's going to believe them? You know, they might be

1477
01:20:04,240 --> 01:20:07,280
Speaker 1: a pillar of the community, and you know, nobody's gonna

1478
01:20:07,280 --> 01:20:12,080
Speaker 1: believe me. So And it's also sometimes takes a person

1479
01:20:12,080 --> 01:20:14,640
Speaker 1: who's experiencing that abuse a while to realize that the

1480
01:20:14,640 --> 01:20:17,080
Speaker 1: person they fell in love with and the person causing

1481
01:20:17,160 --> 01:20:19,720
Speaker 1: them harm is the same person because of how their

1482
01:20:19,760 --> 01:20:23,320
Speaker 1: brain is affected by it. So you know, sometimes they

1483
01:20:23,400 --> 01:20:25,599
Speaker 1: just want it to be the way it was when

1484
01:20:25,640 --> 01:20:29,040
Speaker 1: they first got together. So there's there's so many dynamics

1485
01:20:29,040 --> 01:20:32,280
Speaker 1: into it, and I think really getting more education on

1486
01:20:32,360 --> 01:20:34,720
Speaker 1: it out there for people because there's there's a few

1487
01:20:34,760 --> 01:20:37,120
Speaker 1: things we don't talk about in our society. We don't

1488
01:20:37,160 --> 01:20:39,320
Speaker 1: talk about domestic violence. It's considered a you know, a

1489
01:20:39,360 --> 01:20:43,840
Speaker 1: private issue. You don't talk about mental health, sexual abuse,

1490
01:20:43,880 --> 01:20:46,519
Speaker 1: and things like that. But I think the more we

1491
01:20:46,600 --> 01:20:49,559
Speaker 1: start opening up and having these open conversations about it,

1492
01:20:50,160 --> 01:20:53,080
Speaker 1: I think we can start affecting change and start reducing

1493
01:20:53,120 --> 01:20:56,760
Speaker 1: the stigma behind it. You know, it's just kind of

1494
01:20:56,760 --> 01:20:57,360
Speaker 1: my opinion.

1495
01:20:58,600 --> 01:21:01,760
Speaker 3: Well, thanks so much for being here today. Is how

1496
01:21:01,800 --> 01:21:04,360
Speaker 3: could people help? If they either want to get involved

1497
01:21:04,360 --> 01:21:06,320
Speaker 3: with the foundation or if they would like to have

1498
01:21:06,439 --> 01:21:06,920
Speaker 3: you out for.

1499
01:21:06,960 --> 01:21:10,879
Speaker 1: Training, they can always go to our website Gabbypotito Foundation

1500
01:21:11,040 --> 01:21:15,360
Speaker 1: dot org or info at Gabbypotito Foundation dot org. They

1501
01:21:15,360 --> 01:21:18,519
Speaker 1: can reach out to us there if people want to

1502
01:21:18,520 --> 01:21:22,479
Speaker 1: get involved. We always say, you know, kind of start

1503
01:21:22,520 --> 01:21:26,000
Speaker 1: with your with your local community where you live. See

1504
01:21:26,000 --> 01:21:29,479
Speaker 1: what's there, See how you can help out there. I

1505
01:21:29,520 --> 01:21:33,240
Speaker 1: would say, you know, just getting some education yourself and

1506
01:21:33,640 --> 01:21:38,840
Speaker 1: recognizing these songs, and and you know, supporting your local

1507
01:21:38,880 --> 01:21:41,280
Speaker 1: agencies too, because we're in a crazy time right now

1508
01:21:42,320 --> 01:21:45,599
Speaker 1: and funding is always an issue, and if you can

1509
01:21:45,600 --> 01:21:48,200
Speaker 1: help support even with just a few dollars, that money

1510
01:21:48,240 --> 01:21:50,439
Speaker 1: goes a long way to help somebody to safety.

1511
01:21:51,320 --> 01:21:52,120
Speaker 2: Thank you so much.

1512
01:21:52,160 --> 01:21:54,040
Speaker 3: Thank you, Jim. Yeah, thanks so much. We know that

1513
01:21:54,080 --> 01:21:56,880
Speaker 3: this is really hard for you and we really appreciate

1514
01:21:56,920 --> 01:21:58,920
Speaker 3: you opening up to try to help others.

1515
01:21:59,479 --> 01:22:01,880
Speaker 1: Absolutely, thank you, and I appreciate you guys having me

1516
01:22:01,920 --> 01:22:02,920
Speaker 1: on and all you guys do.

1517
01:22:03,520 --> 01:22:10,200
Speaker 3: Of course, thank you for listening to Mother Knows Death.

1518
01:22:10,880 --> 01:22:14,640
Speaker 3: As a reminder, my training is as a pathologist's assistant.

1519
01:22:15,400 --> 01:22:18,840
Speaker 3: I have a master's level education and specialize in anatomy

1520
01:22:18,880 --> 01:22:22,479
Speaker 3: and pathology education. I am not a doctor and I

1521
01:22:22,520 --> 01:22:26,360
Speaker 3: have not diagnosed or treated anyone dead or alive without

1522
01:22:26,360 --> 01:22:31,760
Speaker 3: the assistance of a licensed medical doctor. This show, my website,

1523
01:22:31,840 --> 01:22:35,200
Speaker 3: and social media accounts are designed to educate and inform

1524
01:22:35,280 --> 01:22:39,519
Speaker 3: people based on my experience working in pathology, so they

1525
01:22:39,560 --> 01:22:42,960
Speaker 3: can make healthier decisions regarding their life and well being.

1526
01:22:44,080 --> 01:22:46,960
Speaker 3: Always remember that science is changing every day and the

1527
01:22:47,000 --> 01:22:50,280
Speaker 3: opinions expressed in this episode are based on my knowledge

1528
01:22:50,320 --> 01:22:53,960
Speaker 3: of those subjects at the time of publication. If you

1529
01:22:54,000 --> 01:22:57,920
Speaker 3: are having a medical problem, have a medical question, or

1530
01:22:58,080 --> 01:23:02,320
Speaker 3: having a medical emergency, please contact your physician or visit

1531
01:23:02,360 --> 01:23:07,679
Speaker 3: an urgent care center, emergency room, or hospital. Please rate, review,

1532
01:23:07,800 --> 01:23:12,200
Speaker 3: and subscribe to Mother Knows Death on Apple, Spotify, YouTube,

1533
01:23:12,439 --> 01:23:20,440
Speaker 3: or anywhere you get podcasts. Thanks