WEBVTT - Updates from Ember, Natalie, and Stephanie | BONUS | Saskia’s Story 

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<v Speaker 1>I'm Andrea Gunning and this is a bonus episode of Betrayal.

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<v Speaker 1>In season five, episode seven, we introduced you to three

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<v Speaker 1>other survivors of intimate partner violence. Their stories were strikingly

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<v Speaker 1>similar to Saskia's. Unlike Saskia, they've each rebuilt in the

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<v Speaker 1>aftermath of what happened to them.

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<v Speaker 2>We wanted to give.

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<v Speaker 1>You some updates on where these survivors are today, So

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<v Speaker 1>let's start with Ember. Remember her fiance, John was drugging

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<v Speaker 1>and raping her. He confessed everything to their pastor.

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<v Speaker 3>The pastor goes, how often has this happened? He goes,

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<v Speaker 3>this has happened probably once a week, almost the whole

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<v Speaker 3>time we've been engaged.

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<v Speaker 1>Still, she planned to stay in the relationship to try

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<v Speaker 1>to make it work. Then she had a chance encounter

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<v Speaker 1>with John's therapist. He broke a major rule of his

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<v Speaker 1>profession by telling her.

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<v Speaker 3>We've run through a series of diagnostic tests on your fiance.

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<v Speaker 3>He's not a safe person. He's officially diagnosed as a

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<v Speaker 3>sociopath and you should get as far away from him

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<v Speaker 3>as possible. That was kind of the point where I

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<v Speaker 3>was like, I can't marry this man.

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<v Speaker 1>This is the moment where back in episode seven, we

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<v Speaker 1>pause the story, but we want to tell you what

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<v Speaker 1>happened next. Even after hearing from John's therapist and ending

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<v Speaker 1>their relationship, Ember didn't seriously consider going to the police.

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<v Speaker 1>What mattered to her was ensuring that John didn't hurt

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<v Speaker 1>other people, and she felt that that was possible without

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<v Speaker 1>John serving time.

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<v Speaker 3>I said, I'm not going to press charges. I'm not

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<v Speaker 3>going to go to the police as long as you

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<v Speaker 3>continue getting the help you need heal so you don't

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<v Speaker 3>do this stuff people, and he said, okay, yeah, of course,

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<v Speaker 3>obviously I'm going to do that.

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<v Speaker 1>But before long Ember heard through mutual friends that John

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<v Speaker 1>stopped going to therapy and whatever treatment he had received

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<v Speaker 1>hadn't worked.

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<v Speaker 3>A friend of ours observed him drugging somebody else called

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<v Speaker 3>me and was like, things are not better. This is escalating,

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<v Speaker 3>and so that's when I went to the police.

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<v Speaker 1>But reporting this crime was far from straightforward.

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<v Speaker 3>Re traumatizing, I guess would be the best word for it.

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<v Speaker 3>I was still struggling to put the pieces together. I

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<v Speaker 3>don't remember everything because I did dissociate, and there are

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<v Speaker 3>aspects that I don't call as a reminder.

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<v Speaker 1>Not only was John drugging Ember she was associating during

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<v Speaker 1>his attacks, her mind went completely dark as a way

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<v Speaker 1>of protecting itself from harm. Her memories were cloudy at best.

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<v Speaker 1>So when she went to the cops, they dismissed her and.

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<v Speaker 3>They're like, we can't really use your testimony, like we

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<v Speaker 3>need this happened at this time and where it happened.

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<v Speaker 1>On top of that, Ember didn't have the physical evidence

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<v Speaker 1>necessary to file charges.

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<v Speaker 3>I didn't have a sane exam done right after the attack.

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<v Speaker 3>I didn't have a drug panel done to prove that

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<v Speaker 3>there was anything in my system. I just had his

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<v Speaker 3>words to a pastor in a room that that had

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<v Speaker 3>taken place. They're like, the best we can do is

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<v Speaker 3>a temporary order of restraint, and even then, once that's up,

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<v Speaker 3>you kin't have to reapply for it. In order to

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<v Speaker 3>reapply for it, you have to prove that he's trying

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<v Speaker 3>to contact you, and so you can't just have this indefinitely.

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<v Speaker 3>And it was just really disheartening of like, I have

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<v Speaker 3>no legal ability to protect myself. I had to wait

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<v Speaker 3>for him to hurt someone else or hurt me in

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<v Speaker 3>order to prove that he's a dangerous person.

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<v Speaker 1>Ember's case was at a standstill.

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<v Speaker 3>That is the most heartbreaking part of our legal system

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<v Speaker 3>as it stands. You have real victims being courageous enough

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<v Speaker 3>to come forward and then nothing can be done, and

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<v Speaker 3>you're like, well, then what's even the point of being courageous.

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<v Speaker 1>John was never brought to justice, But that didn't stop

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<v Speaker 1>Ember from moving forward with her life today. It's been

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<v Speaker 1>twenty years since she was raped.

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<v Speaker 3>And when I hit that twenty year anniversary, it was

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<v Speaker 3>very like, whoo, I'm where I wanted to be.

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<v Speaker 1>She did finally get married to a man she trusts.

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<v Speaker 1>They have two sons, and she has a great career.

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<v Speaker 3>I've been working with survivors kind of as a direct

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<v Speaker 3>result of what I've been through.

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<v Speaker 1>She supports victims of sex trafficking and sexual exploitation, especially

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<v Speaker 1>in creating longer term safety plans.

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<v Speaker 3>So statistics tell us that eighty percent of survivors of

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<v Speaker 3>either trafficking or exploitation will be re victimized within a

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<v Speaker 3>year if they don't have restorative help alongside them. So

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<v Speaker 3>that isn't just like rescue and hope for the best,

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<v Speaker 3>or recover and hope for the best. You really do

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<v Speaker 3>have to walk alongside them and really giving them the

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<v Speaker 3>tools they need to identify safe and unsafe people, to

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<v Speaker 3>understand trauma and how that affects us day in and

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<v Speaker 3>day out.

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<v Speaker 1>Assisting other survivors has helped Ember on her own journey.

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<v Speaker 3>I've been able to bear witness to so many other

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<v Speaker 3>amazing stories that have been healing for me and helpful

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<v Speaker 3>for me too.

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<v Speaker 1>She encourages other survivors to reach out to train professionals

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<v Speaker 1>for this kind of help. No one has to hold

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<v Speaker 1>this pain alone.

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<v Speaker 3>The instinct is to hide, is to run away from

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<v Speaker 3>anyone who can observe that pain, And in reality, you

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<v Speaker 3>need to lean in and you need to show what

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<v Speaker 3>is happening. You need to reveal and drag it into

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<v Speaker 3>the light so it doesn't keep thriving in the darkness.

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<v Speaker 1>Next, we want to share the rest of Natalie's story.

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<v Speaker 1>She was pregnant when she found graphic sexual material created

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<v Speaker 1>and posted by her husband, Stephen.

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<v Speaker 4>You can see his hands, his wedding ring, and then

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<v Speaker 4>I realized that I am in these images.

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<v Speaker 1>It's been over twelve years since that moment.

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<v Speaker 3>For a long.

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<v Speaker 1>Time, after she moved out and got a divorce, she

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<v Speaker 1>mostly kept what she discovered to herself.

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<v Speaker 2>The shame was really unbearable, Like, who am I going

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<v Speaker 2>to tell this to?

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<v Speaker 1>On top of the shame, she felt like she had

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<v Speaker 1>to keep quiet for the sake of her kids. Stephen's

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<v Speaker 1>voice was still in her head.

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<v Speaker 2>He was their dad. I didn't want my kids to

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<v Speaker 2>grow up in a divorced or like a single family home.

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<v Speaker 2>I was ashamed of that too, and it was like

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<v Speaker 2>the stigma of everything. And I look back now and

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<v Speaker 2>I think it's not silly, but you know, that was

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<v Speaker 2>my mindset at the time.

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<v Speaker 1>So for many years, Stephen's secret was her secret. They

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<v Speaker 1>continued to co parent, trading off time with their kids,

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<v Speaker 1>but Stephen would often push the boundaries they'd agreed on.

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<v Speaker 2>He would ask me, I know you're not working today

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<v Speaker 2>and you have the kids, but I'd like to see them.

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<v Speaker 2>Can we do something together? And I would still agree

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<v Speaker 2>to it. Sometimes he would even come to my house

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<v Speaker 2>and just knock on the door and just like come

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<v Speaker 2>in my house, and I just wanted to see the kids.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm like, you can't just do that. And my son

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<v Speaker 2>would be like, oh hey Dad, Hey Mom, can Dad

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<v Speaker 2>come in? Or can Dad eat with us? And I'm

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<v Speaker 2>like okay. And I always give in. I thought it

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<v Speaker 2>was really better for the kids.

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<v Speaker 1>It took her a while to see she needed to

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<v Speaker 1>prioritize herself. That was how to be the best mom.

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<v Speaker 3>She could be.

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<v Speaker 2>He shouldn't be this comfortable. I don't have to let

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<v Speaker 2>him do that. Eventually, I'm like, no, enough, You're not

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<v Speaker 2>going to do this anymore.

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<v Speaker 1>Over time, Natalie started setting firmer boundaries, gaining confidence, and

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<v Speaker 1>slowly she began opening up to people about what her

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<v Speaker 1>ex husband, Stephen did. One of those people was her

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<v Speaker 1>best friend, who was also her ex sister in law.

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<v Speaker 1>If you'll recall, Stephen was Natalie's best friend's brother. Back

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<v Speaker 1>when Stephen and Natalie separated, Natalie protected her friend from

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<v Speaker 1>the truth.

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<v Speaker 4>I didn't want her to know. I didn't want that

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<v Speaker 4>to change.

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<v Speaker 2>Her relationship with her brother.

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<v Speaker 4>But years later I ended up telling her.

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<v Speaker 1>Sadly, her friend came to Stephen's defense.

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<v Speaker 4>She didn't want to believe that I was drugged or

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<v Speaker 4>that he was doing anything like that. That I was

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<v Speaker 4>probably misunderstanding. She chose really victim blaming. That's another just big.

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<v Speaker 2>Blow to me.

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<v Speaker 1>But there were people who were there for her and

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<v Speaker 1>who continued to be there for Natalie to this day,

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<v Speaker 1>like her sisters, her friends, and her therapist.

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<v Speaker 2>Talking about it and sharing my secret and letting this

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<v Speaker 2>go and not carrying so much of it really helped.

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<v Speaker 1>With the support she's received, She's learned how to trust

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<v Speaker 1>other people again. She's even had romantic relationships, including a

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<v Speaker 1>fiance who believed her without hesitation or judgment.

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<v Speaker 4>He's been continuously supportive of my process and has helped

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<v Speaker 4>me feel safe and my trauma.

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<v Speaker 1>She's also now in a place where, after twelve years,

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<v Speaker 1>she's considering reporting Steven to the authorities. Even after all

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<v Speaker 1>this time, she's held onto all the evidence of what

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<v Speaker 1>he did.

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<v Speaker 4>I have my son's tablet, I have memory cards, and

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<v Speaker 4>I have old cell phones that I just have saved.

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<v Speaker 4>They have not gone back and looked at, and I

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<v Speaker 4>feel like I'm ready to.

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<v Speaker 1>Recently, she contacted her local rape crisis center to talk

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<v Speaker 1>through her options legally.

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<v Speaker 4>Just having someone who understands my slow process and can

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<v Speaker 4>give me legal advice on what I could do about

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<v Speaker 4>that is helpful.

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<v Speaker 5>It's been hard for me to accept, like I don't

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<v Speaker 5>have to put everybody first all the time. What I

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<v Speaker 5>feel matters, my struggles matter, and what I'm going through matters,

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<v Speaker 5>so I have to stop protecting him and follow through

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<v Speaker 5>with what I've been wanting to do for years.

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<v Speaker 1>None of this feels easy, and Natalie still has a

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<v Speaker 1>lot of hard days, but that's sequet. Steven's secret doesn't

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<v Speaker 1>weigh on her like it once did.

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<v Speaker 2>I remember thinking about it like this huge elephant that

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<v Speaker 2>I was trying to hide behind me, like by standing

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<v Speaker 2>in front of it. That's how I felt on the inside.

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<v Speaker 2>Now it's like the elephant is just further and further

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<v Speaker 2>and further away from me.

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<v Speaker 1>Lastly, I want to give an update on Stephanie. She

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<v Speaker 1>found something terrifying on her husband's computer.

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<v Speaker 6>He had a Flicker account that was filled with nude

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<v Speaker 6>photos of me, hundreds of pictures.

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<v Speaker 1>We first met her in twenty twenty three. My Betrayal

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<v Speaker 1>Weekly was just an idea. Her story became the show's

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<v Speaker 1>first two episodes. Back then, she talked about how her

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<v Speaker 1>discovery affected her relationship with her body.

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<v Speaker 6>When I was married, I had longish hair and I

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<v Speaker 6>wore very feminine clothing. And in the days following finding out,

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<v Speaker 6>I cut off all my hair and I wore very plain, baggy,

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<v Speaker 6>nondescript clothing.

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<v Speaker 1>Today, a lot has changed. In the few years since

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<v Speaker 1>we met her, Stephanie's gained a better sense of why

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<v Speaker 1>she needed to alter her appearance.

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<v Speaker 6>I saw so many of the images, the photos that

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<v Speaker 6>he took, and so my trauma was very rooted in

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<v Speaker 6>the sight of my face and my body.

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<v Speaker 2>And so in.

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<v Speaker 6>Those couple of years after I discovered what he was doing,

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<v Speaker 6>the sight of my own face and my own body

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<v Speaker 6>was very triggering for me. It was very difficult to

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<v Speaker 6>even change my clothes or take a shower. By not

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<v Speaker 6>taking care of myself, cutting my hair short, and by

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<v Speaker 6>wearing the baggy clothing, I could keep myself safe from

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<v Speaker 6>seeing myself. And since the podcast and as I have

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<v Speaker 6>continued with therapy and yoga, I have been able to

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<v Speaker 6>reclaim myself again. I'm growing my hair out again. I

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<v Speaker 6>actually make a little effort with my clothing, and when

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<v Speaker 6>I catch a glimpse of myself in the mirror, It's like.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh, that's actually me. I look like me again.

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<v Speaker 1>She's dedicated herself to being an advocate, telling her story

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<v Speaker 1>and the hopes that new victims will feel less alone.

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<v Speaker 6>I strongly believe that this is happening to lots of

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<v Speaker 6>other women out there and they don't know it yet.

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<v Speaker 6>And as these women start to discover what's being done

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<v Speaker 6>to them, I want them to have a softer landing

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<v Speaker 6>than I had. To have some resources so they don't

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<v Speaker 6>feel like they are screaming into the void, saying, am

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<v Speaker 6>I the only person in the world that this ever

0:14:23.200 --> 0:14:23.600
<v Speaker 6>happened to?

0:14:24.600 --> 0:14:27.320
<v Speaker 1>She also wants those people to know that there is

0:14:27.440 --> 0:14:29.760
<v Speaker 1>life to live after a crime like this.

0:14:30.920 --> 0:14:35.280
<v Speaker 6>For a long time, I thought the dirtiest, most foul

0:14:35.360 --> 0:14:38.640
<v Speaker 6>word in the human language was hope.

0:14:39.080 --> 0:14:46.080
<v Speaker 1>Fuck hope. There was no hope, and now yeah, I

0:14:46.120 --> 0:14:57.320
<v Speaker 1>can be hopeful. For resources on sexual violence, visit RAIN

0:14:57.440 --> 0:15:01.720
<v Speaker 1>dot org slash betrayal that's our ai n N dot

0:15:01.840 --> 0:15:06.200
<v Speaker 1>org slash betrayal. You can also get free confidential twenty

0:15:06.240 --> 0:15:10.840
<v Speaker 1>four seven support through rain's National Sexual Assault Hotline. Just

0:15:10.880 --> 0:15:14.240
<v Speaker 1>text Hope to six four six seven three or call

0:15:14.320 --> 0:15:18.600
<v Speaker 1>one eight hundred sixty five six hope. You are not alone.

0:15:19.760 --> 0:15:21.520
<v Speaker 1>If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal

0:15:21.520 --> 0:15:24.880
<v Speaker 1>Team or want to tell us your story, email us

0:15:24.920 --> 0:15:29.680
<v Speaker 1>at Betrayalpod at gmail dot com. That is Betrayal Pod

0:15:30.080 --> 0:15:33.560
<v Speaker 1>at gmail dot com, or follow us on Instagram at

0:15:33.600 --> 0:15:37.720
<v Speaker 1>Betrayal Pod. To access additional content and to connect with

0:15:37.760 --> 0:15:41.800
<v Speaker 1>the Betrayal community, join our substack at Betrayal dot substack

0:15:41.840 --> 0:15:45.840
<v Speaker 1>dot com. We're grateful for your support. One way to

0:15:45.880 --> 0:15:49.400
<v Speaker 1>show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts.

0:15:49.960 --> 0:15:52.880
<v Speaker 1>Don't forget to rate and review Betrayal five star reviews

0:15:52.880 --> 0:15:55.560
<v Speaker 1>go a long way. A big thank you to all

0:15:55.600 --> 0:15:59.760
<v Speaker 1>of our listeners. Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts,

0:15:59.800 --> 0:16:04.280
<v Speaker 1>a division of Glass Entertainment Group, in partnership with iHeart Podcasts.

0:16:05.040 --> 0:16:08.240
<v Speaker 1>The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Fason,

0:16:09.000 --> 0:16:12.960
<v Speaker 1>hosted and produced by me Andrea Gunning, written and produced

0:16:12.960 --> 0:16:17.120
<v Speaker 1>by Caitlin Golden, with additional production by Olivia Hewitt. Our

0:16:17.120 --> 0:16:21.120
<v Speaker 1>supervising producer is Carrie Hartman. Our story editor is Monique

0:16:21.160 --> 0:16:25.720
<v Speaker 1>le Board, also produced by Ben Fetterman. Our associate producer

0:16:25.880 --> 0:16:31.360
<v Speaker 1>is Leah Jablo. Production management by Kristin Melcurrie. Additional support

0:16:31.360 --> 0:16:34.880
<v Speaker 1>by Curry Richman. Our iHeart team is Ali Perry and

0:16:34.960 --> 0:16:39.800
<v Speaker 1>Jessica Crincheck. Audio editing by Tanner Robbins with additional editing

0:16:39.840 --> 0:16:44.000
<v Speaker 1>and mixing by Matt Delvecchio. Special thanks to Saskia, her

0:16:44.040 --> 0:16:47.320
<v Speaker 1>friends and family. And special thanks to Will Pearson and

0:16:47.360 --> 0:16:51.280
<v Speaker 1>Carrie Lieberman. The Trayal's theme is composed by Oliver Bains

0:16:51.720 --> 0:16:55.640
<v Speaker 1>Music library provided by mybe Music. And for more podcasts

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<v Speaker 1>from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever

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<v Speaker 1>you get your podcasts from