Speaker 1: I'm Andrea Gunning and this is a bonus episode of Betrayal.
Speaker 1: In season five, episode seven, we introduced you to three
Speaker 1: other survivors of intimate partner violence. Their stories were strikingly
Speaker 1: similar to Saskia's. Unlike Saskia, they've each rebuilt in the
Speaker 1: aftermath of what happened to them.
Speaker 2: We wanted to give.
Speaker 1: You some updates on where these survivors are today, So
Speaker 1: let's start with Ember. Remember her fiance, John was drugging
Speaker 1: and raping her. He confessed everything to their pastor.
Speaker 3: The pastor goes, how often has this happened? He goes,
Speaker 3: this has happened probably once a week, almost the whole
Speaker 3: time we've been engaged.
Speaker 1: Still, she planned to stay in the relationship to try
Speaker 1: to make it work. Then she had a chance encounter
Speaker 1: with John's therapist. He broke a major rule of his
Speaker 1: profession by telling her.
Speaker 3: We've run through a series of diagnostic tests on your fiance.
Speaker 3: He's not a safe person. He's officially diagnosed as a
Speaker 3: sociopath and you should get as far away from him
Speaker 3: as possible. That was kind of the point where I
Speaker 3: was like, I can't marry this man.
Speaker 1: This is the moment where back in episode seven, we
Speaker 1: pause the story, but we want to tell you what
Speaker 1: happened next. Even after hearing from John's therapist and ending
Speaker 1: their relationship, Ember didn't seriously consider going to the police.
Speaker 1: What mattered to her was ensuring that John didn't hurt
Speaker 1: other people, and she felt that that was possible without
Speaker 1: John serving time.
Speaker 3: I said, I'm not going to press charges. I'm not
Speaker 3: going to go to the police as long as you
Speaker 3: continue getting the help you need heal so you don't
Speaker 3: do this stuff people, and he said, okay, yeah, of course,
Speaker 3: obviously I'm going to do that.
Speaker 1: But before long Ember heard through mutual friends that John
Speaker 1: stopped going to therapy and whatever treatment he had received
Speaker 1: hadn't worked.
Speaker 3: A friend of ours observed him drugging somebody else called
Speaker 3: me and was like, things are not better. This is escalating,
Speaker 3: and so that's when I went to the police.
Speaker 1: But reporting this crime was far from straightforward.
Speaker 3: Re traumatizing, I guess would be the best word for it.
Speaker 3: I was still struggling to put the pieces together. I
Speaker 3: don't remember everything because I did dissociate, and there are
Speaker 3: aspects that I don't call as a reminder.
Speaker 1: Not only was John drugging Ember she was associating during
Speaker 1: his attacks, her mind went completely dark as a way
Speaker 1: of protecting itself from harm. Her memories were cloudy at best.
Speaker 1: So when she went to the cops, they dismissed her and.
Speaker 3: They're like, we can't really use your testimony, like we
Speaker 3: need this happened at this time and where it happened.
Speaker 1: On top of that, Ember didn't have the physical evidence
Speaker 1: necessary to file charges.
Speaker 3: I didn't have a sane exam done right after the attack.
Speaker 3: I didn't have a drug panel done to prove that
Speaker 3: there was anything in my system. I just had his
Speaker 3: words to a pastor in a room that that had
Speaker 3: taken place. They're like, the best we can do is
Speaker 3: a temporary order of restraint, and even then, once that's up,
Speaker 3: you kin't have to reapply for it. In order to
Speaker 3: reapply for it, you have to prove that he's trying
Speaker 3: to contact you, and so you can't just have this indefinitely.
Speaker 3: And it was just really disheartening of like, I have
Speaker 3: no legal ability to protect myself. I had to wait
Speaker 3: for him to hurt someone else or hurt me in
Speaker 3: order to prove that he's a dangerous person.
Speaker 1: Ember's case was at a standstill.
Speaker 3: That is the most heartbreaking part of our legal system
Speaker 3: as it stands. You have real victims being courageous enough
Speaker 3: to come forward and then nothing can be done, and
Speaker 3: you're like, well, then what's even the point of being courageous.
Speaker 1: John was never brought to justice, But that didn't stop
Speaker 1: Ember from moving forward with her life today. It's been
Speaker 1: twenty years since she was raped.
Speaker 3: And when I hit that twenty year anniversary, it was
Speaker 3: very like, whoo, I'm where I wanted to be.
Speaker 1: She did finally get married to a man she trusts.
Speaker 1: They have two sons, and she has a great career.
Speaker 3: I've been working with survivors kind of as a direct
Speaker 3: result of what I've been through.
Speaker 1: She supports victims of sex trafficking and sexual exploitation, especially
Speaker 1: in creating longer term safety plans.
Speaker 3: So statistics tell us that eighty percent of survivors of
Speaker 3: either trafficking or exploitation will be re victimized within a
Speaker 3: year if they don't have restorative help alongside them. So
Speaker 3: that isn't just like rescue and hope for the best,
Speaker 3: or recover and hope for the best. You really do
Speaker 3: have to walk alongside them and really giving them the
Speaker 3: tools they need to identify safe and unsafe people, to
Speaker 3: understand trauma and how that affects us day in and
Speaker 3: day out.
Speaker 1: Assisting other survivors has helped Ember on her own journey.
Speaker 3: I've been able to bear witness to so many other
Speaker 3: amazing stories that have been healing for me and helpful
Speaker 3: for me too.
Speaker 1: She encourages other survivors to reach out to train professionals
Speaker 1: for this kind of help. No one has to hold
Speaker 1: this pain alone.
Speaker 3: The instinct is to hide, is to run away from
Speaker 3: anyone who can observe that pain, And in reality, you
Speaker 3: need to lean in and you need to show what
Speaker 3: is happening. You need to reveal and drag it into
Speaker 3: the light so it doesn't keep thriving in the darkness.
Speaker 1: Next, we want to share the rest of Natalie's story.
Speaker 1: She was pregnant when she found graphic sexual material created
Speaker 1: and posted by her husband, Stephen.
Speaker 4: You can see his hands, his wedding ring, and then
Speaker 4: I realized that I am in these images.
Speaker 1: It's been over twelve years since that moment.
Speaker 3: For a long.
Speaker 1: Time, after she moved out and got a divorce, she
Speaker 1: mostly kept what she discovered to herself.
Speaker 2: The shame was really unbearable, Like, who am I going
Speaker 2: to tell this to?
Speaker 1: On top of the shame, she felt like she had
Speaker 1: to keep quiet for the sake of her kids. Stephen's
Speaker 1: voice was still in her head.
Speaker 2: He was their dad. I didn't want my kids to
Speaker 2: grow up in a divorced or like a single family home.
Speaker 2: I was ashamed of that too, and it was like
Speaker 2: the stigma of everything. And I look back now and
Speaker 2: I think it's not silly, but you know, that was
Speaker 2: my mindset at the time.
Speaker 1: So for many years, Stephen's secret was her secret. They
Speaker 1: continued to co parent, trading off time with their kids,
Speaker 1: but Stephen would often push the boundaries they'd agreed on.
Speaker 2: He would ask me, I know you're not working today
Speaker 2: and you have the kids, but I'd like to see them.
Speaker 2: Can we do something together? And I would still agree
Speaker 2: to it. Sometimes he would even come to my house
Speaker 2: and just knock on the door and just like come
Speaker 2: in my house, and I just wanted to see the kids.
Speaker 2: I'm like, you can't just do that. And my son
Speaker 2: would be like, oh hey Dad, Hey Mom, can Dad
Speaker 2: come in? Or can Dad eat with us? And I'm
Speaker 2: like okay. And I always give in. I thought it
Speaker 2: was really better for the kids.
Speaker 1: It took her a while to see she needed to
Speaker 1: prioritize herself. That was how to be the best mom.
Speaker 3: She could be.
Speaker 2: He shouldn't be this comfortable. I don't have to let
Speaker 2: him do that. Eventually, I'm like, no, enough, You're not
Speaker 2: going to do this anymore.
Speaker 1: Over time, Natalie started setting firmer boundaries, gaining confidence, and
Speaker 1: slowly she began opening up to people about what her
Speaker 1: ex husband, Stephen did. One of those people was her
Speaker 1: best friend, who was also her ex sister in law.
Speaker 1: If you'll recall, Stephen was Natalie's best friend's brother. Back
Speaker 1: when Stephen and Natalie separated, Natalie protected her friend from
Speaker 1: the truth.
Speaker 4: I didn't want her to know. I didn't want that
Speaker 4: to change.
Speaker 2: Her relationship with her brother.
Speaker 4: But years later I ended up telling her.
Speaker 1: Sadly, her friend came to Stephen's defense.
Speaker 4: She didn't want to believe that I was drugged or
Speaker 4: that he was doing anything like that. That I was
Speaker 4: probably misunderstanding. She chose really victim blaming. That's another just big.
Speaker 2: Blow to me.
Speaker 1: But there were people who were there for her and
Speaker 1: who continued to be there for Natalie to this day,
Speaker 1: like her sisters, her friends, and her therapist.
Speaker 2: Talking about it and sharing my secret and letting this
Speaker 2: go and not carrying so much of it really helped.
Speaker 1: With the support she's received, She's learned how to trust
Speaker 1: other people again. She's even had romantic relationships, including a
Speaker 1: fiance who believed her without hesitation or judgment.
Speaker 4: He's been continuously supportive of my process and has helped
Speaker 4: me feel safe and my trauma.
Speaker 1: She's also now in a place where, after twelve years,
Speaker 1: she's considering reporting Steven to the authorities. Even after all
Speaker 1: this time, she's held onto all the evidence of what
Speaker 1: he did.
Speaker 4: I have my son's tablet, I have memory cards, and
Speaker 4: I have old cell phones that I just have saved.
Speaker 4: They have not gone back and looked at, and I
Speaker 4: feel like I'm ready to.
Speaker 1: Recently, she contacted her local rape crisis center to talk
Speaker 1: through her options legally.
Speaker 4: Just having someone who understands my slow process and can
Speaker 4: give me legal advice on what I could do about
Speaker 4: that is helpful.
Speaker 5: It's been hard for me to accept, like I don't
Speaker 5: have to put everybody first all the time. What I
Speaker 5: feel matters, my struggles matter, and what I'm going through matters,
Speaker 5: so I have to stop protecting him and follow through
Speaker 5: with what I've been wanting to do for years.
Speaker 1: None of this feels easy, and Natalie still has a
Speaker 1: lot of hard days, but that's sequet. Steven's secret doesn't
Speaker 1: weigh on her like it once did.
Speaker 2: I remember thinking about it like this huge elephant that
Speaker 2: I was trying to hide behind me, like by standing
Speaker 2: in front of it. That's how I felt on the inside.
Speaker 2: Now it's like the elephant is just further and further
Speaker 2: and further away from me.
Speaker 1: Lastly, I want to give an update on Stephanie. She
Speaker 1: found something terrifying on her husband's computer.
Speaker 6: He had a Flicker account that was filled with nude
Speaker 6: photos of me, hundreds of pictures.
Speaker 1: We first met her in twenty twenty three. My Betrayal
Speaker 1: Weekly was just an idea. Her story became the show's
Speaker 1: first two episodes. Back then, she talked about how her
Speaker 1: discovery affected her relationship with her body.
Speaker 6: When I was married, I had longish hair and I
Speaker 6: wore very feminine clothing. And in the days following finding out,
Speaker 6: I cut off all my hair and I wore very plain, baggy,
Speaker 6: nondescript clothing.
Speaker 1: Today, a lot has changed. In the few years since
Speaker 1: we met her, Stephanie's gained a better sense of why
Speaker 1: she needed to alter her appearance.
Speaker 6: I saw so many of the images, the photos that
Speaker 6: he took, and so my trauma was very rooted in
Speaker 6: the sight of my face and my body.
Speaker 2: And so in.
Speaker 6: Those couple of years after I discovered what he was doing,
Speaker 6: the sight of my own face and my own body
Speaker 6: was very triggering for me. It was very difficult to
Speaker 6: even change my clothes or take a shower. By not
Speaker 6: taking care of myself, cutting my hair short, and by
Speaker 6: wearing the baggy clothing, I could keep myself safe from
Speaker 6: seeing myself. And since the podcast and as I have
Speaker 6: continued with therapy and yoga, I have been able to
Speaker 6: reclaim myself again. I'm growing my hair out again. I
Speaker 6: actually make a little effort with my clothing, and when
Speaker 6: I catch a glimpse of myself in the mirror, It's like.
Speaker 2: Oh, that's actually me. I look like me again.
Speaker 1: She's dedicated herself to being an advocate, telling her story
Speaker 1: and the hopes that new victims will feel less alone.
Speaker 6: I strongly believe that this is happening to lots of
Speaker 6: other women out there and they don't know it yet.
Speaker 6: And as these women start to discover what's being done
Speaker 6: to them, I want them to have a softer landing
Speaker 6: than I had. To have some resources so they don't
Speaker 6: feel like they are screaming into the void, saying, am
Speaker 6: I the only person in the world that this ever
Speaker 6: happened to?
Speaker 1: She also wants those people to know that there is
Speaker 1: life to live after a crime like this.
Speaker 6: For a long time, I thought the dirtiest, most foul
Speaker 6: word in the human language was hope.
Speaker 1: Fuck hope. There was no hope, and now yeah, I
Speaker 1: can be hopeful. For resources on sexual violence, visit RAIN
Speaker 1: dot org slash betrayal that's our ai n N dot
Speaker 1: org slash betrayal. You can also get free confidential twenty
Speaker 1: four seven support through rain's National Sexual Assault Hotline. Just
Speaker 1: text Hope to six four six seven three or call
Speaker 1: one eight hundred sixty five six hope. You are not alone.
Speaker 1: If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal
Speaker 1: Team or want to tell us your story, email us
Speaker 1: at Betrayalpod at gmail dot com. That is Betrayal Pod
Speaker 1: at gmail dot com, or follow us on Instagram at
Speaker 1: Betrayal Pod. To access additional content and to connect with
Speaker 1: the Betrayal community, join our substack at Betrayal dot substack
Speaker 1: dot com. We're grateful for your support. One way to
Speaker 1: show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts.
Speaker 1: Don't forget to rate and review Betrayal five star reviews
Speaker 1: go a long way. A big thank you to all
Speaker 1: of our listeners. Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts,
Speaker 1: a division of Glass Entertainment Group, in partnership with iHeart Podcasts.
Speaker 1: The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Fason,
Speaker 1: hosted and produced by me Andrea Gunning, written and produced
Speaker 1: by Caitlin Golden, with additional production by Olivia Hewitt. Our
Speaker 1: supervising producer is Carrie Hartman. Our story editor is Monique
Speaker 1: le Board, also produced by Ben Fetterman. Our associate producer
Speaker 1: is Leah Jablo. Production management by Kristin Melcurrie. Additional support
Speaker 1: by Curry Richman. Our iHeart team is Ali Perry and
Speaker 1: Jessica Crincheck. Audio editing by Tanner Robbins with additional editing
Speaker 1: and mixing by Matt Delvecchio. Special thanks to Saskia, her
Speaker 1: friends and family. And special thanks to Will Pearson and
Speaker 1: Carrie Lieberman. The Trayal's theme is composed by Oliver Bains
Speaker 1: Music library provided by mybe Music. And for more podcasts
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