1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:05,560 Speaker 1: Now here's a highlight from Coast to Coast AM on iHeartRadio. 2 00:00:04,960 --> 00:00:07,640 Speaker 2: And welcome back George and Oria along with Caroline Fleck 3 00:00:07,640 --> 00:00:11,280 Speaker 2: as we talk about her work validation. Caroline, how important 4 00:00:11,320 --> 00:00:16,040 Speaker 2: would you say validation is compared to something like persuasion 5 00:00:16,600 --> 00:00:17,560 Speaker 2: or influencing? 6 00:00:19,000 --> 00:00:21,720 Speaker 3: I mean it is a means of persuasion. 7 00:00:22,560 --> 00:00:26,280 Speaker 4: I think this is going to sound controversial, but when 8 00:00:26,320 --> 00:00:30,280 Speaker 4: I think about other essential qualities of a relationship, like 9 00:00:30,480 --> 00:00:35,680 Speaker 4: trust or even love, I think validation is as if 10 00:00:35,760 --> 00:00:40,000 Speaker 4: not more important than some of those qualities that we 11 00:00:40,960 --> 00:00:43,960 Speaker 4: that we know are important, that we make. We make 12 00:00:44,880 --> 00:00:48,239 Speaker 4: We're mindful and intentional about attending to in our relationships. 13 00:00:49,000 --> 00:00:51,879 Speaker 4: And here's why, Like, what does it actually mean to 14 00:00:52,000 --> 00:00:56,840 Speaker 4: be loved if you're not accepted for who you are? 15 00:00:57,760 --> 00:00:57,960 Speaker 2: Right? 16 00:00:58,000 --> 00:01:00,600 Speaker 3: I think a lot of times we end up. 17 00:01:00,800 --> 00:01:05,399 Speaker 4: Distorting ourselves and filtering and facades in an attempt to 18 00:01:05,440 --> 00:01:09,520 Speaker 4: get praise, and praise is often confused with validation. 19 00:01:09,959 --> 00:01:12,800 Speaker 3: I think. I think that's typically what folks. 20 00:01:12,880 --> 00:01:16,200 Speaker 4: When folks talk about external validation, what they really mean 21 00:01:16,280 --> 00:01:18,600 Speaker 4: is praise. Praise is a judgment. It says I like 22 00:01:18,640 --> 00:01:21,039 Speaker 4: the way you look, or I like how you perform. 23 00:01:22,120 --> 00:01:25,720 Speaker 4: Validation says, I accept you independent of how you look 24 00:01:25,800 --> 00:01:30,880 Speaker 4: or perform. And so again, if we're not showing up 25 00:01:31,560 --> 00:01:36,160 Speaker 4: authentically and being accepted on those terms, then I don't 26 00:01:36,240 --> 00:01:39,600 Speaker 4: know what it actually means to say that we love 27 00:01:39,640 --> 00:01:44,560 Speaker 4: another person that we don't really know or accept or Yeah, 28 00:01:44,640 --> 00:01:45,360 Speaker 4: that makes sense. 29 00:01:45,720 --> 00:01:47,319 Speaker 2: Do we validate our friends? 30 00:01:49,280 --> 00:01:52,800 Speaker 4: Yeah, I think it's I think it's important too, right, 31 00:01:52,920 --> 00:01:56,600 Speaker 4: I think sure, the more somebody feels accepted in their 32 00:01:56,640 --> 00:02:00,000 Speaker 4: relationship with you, the more they will gravitate to you. 33 00:02:00,320 --> 00:02:02,640 Speaker 4: And that's not just me saying that, I mean that 34 00:02:02,760 --> 00:02:03,960 Speaker 4: is the science of it. 35 00:02:04,280 --> 00:02:04,440 Speaker 1: Right. 36 00:02:05,320 --> 00:02:08,840 Speaker 2: What about parents and their kids? How does a parent 37 00:02:09,000 --> 00:02:12,280 Speaker 2: validate their child and what does it do for the kid? 38 00:02:13,960 --> 00:02:16,320 Speaker 3: Well, one way to answer to that question is to 39 00:02:16,320 --> 00:02:20,360 Speaker 3: look at what invalidation does to our children. And we 40 00:02:20,560 --> 00:02:24,919 Speaker 3: know that emotional invalidation is one. 41 00:02:24,720 --> 00:02:31,799 Speaker 4: Of the causes of severe psychopathology, so invalidating environments. 42 00:02:31,919 --> 00:02:34,760 Speaker 3: Children raised in invalidating environments. 43 00:02:34,280 --> 00:02:39,480 Speaker 4: Are significantly more likely to develop everything from narcissism to 44 00:02:39,560 --> 00:02:46,600 Speaker 4: borderline personality disorder to major depression. These are serious associations, 45 00:02:46,880 --> 00:02:52,120 Speaker 4: serious connections, and so I mean, if we think about 46 00:02:52,160 --> 00:02:55,720 Speaker 4: what happens there, right, when you invalidate a child's emotions. 47 00:02:56,200 --> 00:03:01,520 Speaker 4: You're basically saying, you're basically dismissing that case experience. You're saying, 48 00:03:01,520 --> 00:03:04,680 Speaker 4: this doesn't matter. I'll give you something to cry about. 49 00:03:04,720 --> 00:03:08,359 Speaker 4: That would be an example of an invalidating response, right, 50 00:03:09,080 --> 00:03:10,040 Speaker 4: Or boys don't cry. 51 00:03:10,080 --> 00:03:14,120 Speaker 3: That's an invalidating response. Now, a one off. 52 00:03:14,000 --> 00:03:17,240 Speaker 4: Reaction like that isn't going to maybe scar a child 53 00:03:17,280 --> 00:03:20,640 Speaker 4: for life, although some would argue it could. But if 54 00:03:20,800 --> 00:03:26,480 Speaker 4: every emotion a child expresses is responded to by being 55 00:03:26,560 --> 00:03:31,840 Speaker 4: either dismissed or minimized, that child does not learn to 56 00:03:31,919 --> 00:03:33,680 Speaker 4: trust their own emotions. 57 00:03:34,120 --> 00:03:34,320 Speaker 3: Right. 58 00:03:34,360 --> 00:03:38,600 Speaker 4: They've been taught that their emotions are wrong and that 59 00:03:38,640 --> 00:03:41,320 Speaker 4: they should defer to others to tell them how they 60 00:03:41,320 --> 00:03:46,400 Speaker 4: should feel or think. And that is that is what 61 00:03:46,480 --> 00:03:49,360 Speaker 4: is at the core of a lot of the dysfunction 62 00:03:49,400 --> 00:03:50,680 Speaker 4: that I see in my practice. 63 00:03:51,440 --> 00:03:53,680 Speaker 2: Would that be the case, Caroline, if a kid came 64 00:03:53,680 --> 00:03:57,520 Speaker 2: home with an ace on his science paper and the 65 00:03:57,640 --> 00:03:59,960 Speaker 2: parents kind of pooted it away. 66 00:04:01,240 --> 00:04:04,080 Speaker 3: Hooted away as if like it was like a good 67 00:04:04,160 --> 00:04:04,880 Speaker 3: job or a bad. 68 00:04:04,800 --> 00:04:05,920 Speaker 2: Job, Like no big deal. 69 00:04:06,640 --> 00:04:10,320 Speaker 4: Oh yeah, absolutely right, I think I mean invalidation is 70 00:04:10,360 --> 00:04:15,920 Speaker 4: the language of perfectionism. Perfectionism says this is so easy, Like, 71 00:04:16,000 --> 00:04:19,720 Speaker 4: what's the big deal right when the reality is that 72 00:04:20,360 --> 00:04:25,360 Speaker 4: obviously perfection is impossible and even trying to fake perfection, 73 00:04:25,560 --> 00:04:28,680 Speaker 4: even just creating facades is exhausting to keep up with. 74 00:04:29,360 --> 00:04:33,120 Speaker 4: And so you see a lot of perfectionistic standards in 75 00:04:33,240 --> 00:04:37,240 Speaker 4: kids with parents who are either very invalidating or have 76 00:04:37,480 --> 00:04:38,920 Speaker 4: very perfectionistic standards. 77 00:04:39,680 --> 00:04:42,640 Speaker 2: How can we validate ourselves? Can we? 78 00:04:43,320 --> 00:04:45,760 Speaker 3: Yeah? Yes we can. 79 00:04:46,720 --> 00:04:49,880 Speaker 4: It is a skill just like the you know, the 80 00:04:49,880 --> 00:04:51,880 Speaker 4: same way that we need to work at it in 81 00:04:52,480 --> 00:04:55,919 Speaker 4: communicating validation to others. We need to be able to 82 00:04:56,000 --> 00:05:00,840 Speaker 4: look at ourselves and see what we call the kernel 83 00:05:00,880 --> 00:05:03,440 Speaker 4: of truth in the experience, Like there's a valid reason 84 00:05:04,200 --> 00:05:09,680 Speaker 4: that you are thinking or feeling something, Okay, The task 85 00:05:09,800 --> 00:05:12,039 Speaker 4: is just to find the validity in that. Where is 86 00:05:12,080 --> 00:05:14,400 Speaker 4: that coming from? What was the chain of cause and 87 00:05:14,440 --> 00:05:17,440 Speaker 4: effect that got you here. That doesn't mean that the 88 00:05:17,440 --> 00:05:21,000 Speaker 4: way you're handling it is necessarily valid or effective, but 89 00:05:21,640 --> 00:05:26,800 Speaker 4: some part of your experience is valid and you need 90 00:05:26,839 --> 00:05:30,600 Speaker 4: to be able to see that for yourself, especially if 91 00:05:30,640 --> 00:05:33,880 Speaker 4: you're in an environment where nobody else acknowledges. 92 00:05:33,320 --> 00:05:36,799 Speaker 2: It is confidence the same as validation. 93 00:05:37,839 --> 00:05:41,280 Speaker 4: Mmm, I think someone, In fact, I know someone who 94 00:05:41,320 --> 00:05:45,960 Speaker 4: is good at self validation will naturally have higher confidence, 95 00:05:46,040 --> 00:05:51,000 Speaker 4: right because they they're not as dependent on those external signals. 96 00:05:51,160 --> 00:05:51,280 Speaker 2: Right. 97 00:05:52,560 --> 00:05:56,880 Speaker 4: However, I don't think we can become completely divorced from it. 98 00:05:57,040 --> 00:06:00,359 Speaker 4: I think that's an illusion we have or something we 99 00:06:00,400 --> 00:06:02,320 Speaker 4: really aspire to. We want to just believe that we 100 00:06:02,360 --> 00:06:06,240 Speaker 4: can exist somehow independent of any concern for how other 101 00:06:06,279 --> 00:06:07,560 Speaker 4: people perceive us. 102 00:06:08,000 --> 00:06:09,359 Speaker 3: And that's not how we're wired. 103 00:06:10,000 --> 00:06:14,880 Speaker 4: We are joined to seek out acceptance into the tribe. 104 00:06:15,279 --> 00:06:17,800 Speaker 4: That is how we have survived, and so on a 105 00:06:17,880 --> 00:06:22,680 Speaker 4: very primal level, we desire that acceptance, and when we're 106 00:06:22,760 --> 00:06:25,760 Speaker 4: constantly getting signals from the environment that we're not accepted, 107 00:06:26,400 --> 00:06:29,480 Speaker 4: that does not sit well for us. We are in 108 00:06:29,520 --> 00:06:33,160 Speaker 4: those situations being deprived of what we need to survive 109 00:06:34,320 --> 00:06:37,280 Speaker 4: and what we have needed to survive evolutionarily. 110 00:06:37,800 --> 00:06:41,599 Speaker 2: The person who does not validate a lot, what does 111 00:06:41,640 --> 00:06:44,840 Speaker 2: that tell you about them? 112 00:06:45,880 --> 00:06:49,200 Speaker 3: Typically, it means that it was not modeled for them. 113 00:06:49,400 --> 00:06:52,280 Speaker 4: It is not something that they have experienced, and it 114 00:06:52,320 --> 00:06:55,960 Speaker 4: is probably not how they talk to themselves. And so 115 00:06:56,560 --> 00:06:59,480 Speaker 4: in my work as a therapist, one of the reasons 116 00:07:00,080 --> 00:07:04,000 Speaker 4: I trained exhaustibly and how to communicate validation is because 117 00:07:04,000 --> 00:07:08,840 Speaker 4: I'm working with folks who are coming from highly invalidating environments. 118 00:07:09,440 --> 00:07:13,960 Speaker 4: They have no framework, no frame of reference for how 119 00:07:14,000 --> 00:07:16,800 Speaker 4: to do this for themselves, much less communicated to others, 120 00:07:17,520 --> 00:07:20,080 Speaker 4: and therefore, within that therapeutic relationship. 121 00:07:20,120 --> 00:07:21,800 Speaker 3: I try and model that to some extent. 122 00:07:23,120 --> 00:07:27,920 Speaker 2: The CEO who validates his employees often how is he 123 00:07:27,960 --> 00:07:28,480 Speaker 2: looked at. 124 00:07:30,400 --> 00:07:34,480 Speaker 4: I think validation is one of the single greatest positive 125 00:07:34,480 --> 00:07:36,840 Speaker 4: reinforcements that's overlooked in the workplace. 126 00:07:37,520 --> 00:07:39,760 Speaker 3: It just makes no sense. 127 00:07:41,400 --> 00:07:48,160 Speaker 4: We've really approached our corporate settings in this very sterile way, 128 00:07:48,240 --> 00:07:51,080 Speaker 4: as if sterile and professional were one and the same. 129 00:07:52,320 --> 00:07:57,480 Speaker 4: We're comfortable praising the work, saying good job, nice presentation, 130 00:07:58,880 --> 00:08:03,640 Speaker 4: but we're not comfortable recognizing or acknowledging the person behind 131 00:08:03,680 --> 00:08:04,160 Speaker 4: the work. 132 00:08:04,440 --> 00:08:09,160 Speaker 3: That's what validation does. Validation good, good. 133 00:08:09,000 --> 00:08:10,200 Speaker 2: Job on the. 134 00:08:12,040 --> 00:08:14,720 Speaker 4: You know the work you did over Christmas break you 135 00:08:14,920 --> 00:08:16,800 Speaker 4: you came in when everybody else was off and you 136 00:08:17,280 --> 00:08:17,760 Speaker 4: fixed it. 137 00:08:17,760 --> 00:08:20,840 Speaker 3: It was great. Thank you so much for your hard work. 138 00:08:20,880 --> 00:08:21,400 Speaker 3: That's great. 139 00:08:22,000 --> 00:08:26,320 Speaker 4: That's all praise and appreciation validation would say. And that 140 00:08:26,440 --> 00:08:29,440 Speaker 4: must have been so disappointing for you to have to 141 00:08:29,480 --> 00:08:33,080 Speaker 4: come in when everybody else was out. I imagine you're 142 00:08:33,120 --> 00:08:37,920 Speaker 4: feeling burnt out. Okay, that's that's validation, and you can 143 00:08:38,040 --> 00:08:42,480 Speaker 4: just feel there is something more there. There is a 144 00:08:42,600 --> 00:08:48,160 Speaker 4: sense of connection there that is incredibly valuable. It is 145 00:08:48,200 --> 00:08:52,040 Speaker 4: incredibly valuable. And so a lot of my corporate work 146 00:08:52,640 --> 00:08:57,720 Speaker 4: function focuses on helping, on helping executives and you know, 147 00:08:58,400 --> 00:09:01,960 Speaker 4: just everyday employees develop these skills so that they can 148 00:09:02,000 --> 00:09:03,080 Speaker 4: speak this language. 149 00:09:03,600 --> 00:09:11,559 Speaker 2: How close does validation, Caroline echo compliments? It's they're close. 150 00:09:12,320 --> 00:09:17,840 Speaker 4: Well, here's the difference. Compliments reflect a judgment, right, I 151 00:09:17,960 --> 00:09:20,800 Speaker 4: like the way you look, I like the way you perform. 152 00:09:20,920 --> 00:09:24,240 Speaker 4: By the way emojis I think also fall into this category. 153 00:09:24,320 --> 00:09:27,760 Speaker 4: So like the heart emoji, when someone pokes posts a 154 00:09:27,800 --> 00:09:28,600 Speaker 4: bikini pick or. 155 00:09:28,600 --> 00:09:31,480 Speaker 2: Something, smile or a frown or something like that. 156 00:09:31,640 --> 00:09:34,880 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, all of that is some form of praise. 157 00:09:35,160 --> 00:09:38,880 Speaker 4: It's saying I like what I see right, I'm evaluating 158 00:09:38,880 --> 00:09:39,559 Speaker 4: this positively. 159 00:09:40,400 --> 00:09:40,520 Speaker 2: Uh. 160 00:09:41,000 --> 00:09:45,079 Speaker 4: Validation is really non judgmental. It just it just says, 161 00:09:45,120 --> 00:09:49,520 Speaker 4: I simply see right, I see what is I see 162 00:09:49,520 --> 00:09:53,920 Speaker 4: that you came in overbreak when everybody else didn't. 163 00:09:54,160 --> 00:09:58,199 Speaker 3: I am mindful. And so the distinction is that. 164 00:09:59,520 --> 00:10:03,480 Speaker 4: Praise and compliments, all of that is judgmental and at 165 00:10:03,520 --> 00:10:06,439 Speaker 4: its core validation is non judgmental. 166 00:10:08,559 --> 00:10:10,319 Speaker 2: I'm going to give you an example and tell me 167 00:10:10,360 --> 00:10:14,480 Speaker 2: how you would validate this person. Employee comes into the 168 00:10:14,520 --> 00:10:21,240 Speaker 2: company and has just sold two million dollars worth of 169 00:10:21,679 --> 00:10:27,120 Speaker 2: something that the company performs and sells. Other people sold 170 00:10:27,320 --> 00:10:31,400 Speaker 2: fifty thousand dollars worth one hundred thousand dollars worth. This 171 00:10:31,480 --> 00:10:36,760 Speaker 2: individual sold two million dollars worth of material. How would 172 00:10:36,800 --> 00:10:38,040 Speaker 2: you validate that person? 173 00:10:39,240 --> 00:10:41,480 Speaker 4: Well, it depends I would need perhaps a little bit 174 00:10:41,520 --> 00:10:44,600 Speaker 4: more information, so I've got When I look at validation, 175 00:10:44,720 --> 00:10:47,320 Speaker 4: there's three things I could validate in a person's response. 176 00:10:47,520 --> 00:10:50,880 Speaker 4: I could validate their behavior if their behavior makes sense 177 00:10:50,920 --> 00:10:55,120 Speaker 4: and is logical, their emotions or their thoughts. I don't 178 00:10:55,120 --> 00:10:58,200 Speaker 4: have to validate all of that, which is the the. 179 00:11:00,320 --> 00:11:00,800 Speaker 3: Key here. 180 00:11:01,760 --> 00:11:04,560 Speaker 4: But with this individual, based on what you're describing, the 181 00:11:04,600 --> 00:11:07,880 Speaker 4: only information I have is their behavior. They sold two million, 182 00:11:07,920 --> 00:11:10,920 Speaker 4: which should sounds like they did a great job. I 183 00:11:11,000 --> 00:11:14,720 Speaker 4: could infer from that that they must be excited, so 184 00:11:14,800 --> 00:11:17,280 Speaker 4: I could speak to that, you must be really excited. 185 00:11:17,440 --> 00:11:20,480 Speaker 2: They could have been cutthroat to do it, could. 186 00:11:20,240 --> 00:11:23,400 Speaker 4: Have been cut throughat right, so I might I could 187 00:11:23,400 --> 00:11:27,880 Speaker 4: take a stab there and see, wow, did you really 188 00:11:27,880 --> 00:11:31,360 Speaker 4: have to I wonder what you had to do to 189 00:11:31,360 --> 00:11:33,720 Speaker 4: get and make that happen. Right, I don't know if 190 00:11:33,720 --> 00:11:36,360 Speaker 4: that's going to land as validating, but if it's a 191 00:11:37,240 --> 00:11:38,719 Speaker 4: sideways not to what they. 192 00:11:38,480 --> 00:11:39,959 Speaker 3: Did and they see that, then it could. 193 00:11:40,720 --> 00:11:44,000 Speaker 4: But I'm trying to infer it would have to be 194 00:11:44,040 --> 00:11:46,760 Speaker 4: either thoughts or emotions, because I don't have that information. 195 00:11:46,840 --> 00:11:47,760 Speaker 3: So thoughts could. 196 00:11:47,520 --> 00:11:51,680 Speaker 4: Also be like, you must be really excited, you must 197 00:11:51,720 --> 00:11:52,720 Speaker 4: be thinking that things. 198 00:11:52,480 --> 00:11:53,840 Speaker 3: Are going well like. 199 00:11:55,280 --> 00:11:59,160 Speaker 4: Or I'm wondering if if you're worried that this is 200 00:11:59,160 --> 00:12:02,920 Speaker 4: now setting really high expectations for next time, that's great. 201 00:12:03,240 --> 00:12:06,319 Speaker 2: Is validation easy or difficult. 202 00:12:07,559 --> 00:12:12,480 Speaker 4: Depends on the circumstances. It can be as simple, like 203 00:12:12,559 --> 00:12:17,240 Speaker 4: I said, just very basic validation skills. 204 00:12:16,960 --> 00:12:18,880 Speaker 3: If I can. If I don't. 205 00:12:18,880 --> 00:12:21,360 Speaker 4: If I'm sitting across from like fierce, this political opponent 206 00:12:21,440 --> 00:12:24,520 Speaker 4: and I find what they say really offensive and threatening 207 00:12:24,600 --> 00:12:29,400 Speaker 4: to me, if I don't understand or empathize, then I 208 00:12:29,440 --> 00:12:30,800 Speaker 4: can just be mindful. 209 00:12:31,120 --> 00:12:32,960 Speaker 3: And I have two validation skills. 210 00:12:32,960 --> 00:12:35,200 Speaker 4: I use that copying one I talked about, and this 211 00:12:35,280 --> 00:12:38,760 Speaker 4: other one called attending. But to do those two skills, 212 00:12:38,880 --> 00:12:40,719 Speaker 4: I mean to copy, I just copy them. 213 00:12:40,760 --> 00:12:42,800 Speaker 3: That's not very hard. The hard thing. 214 00:12:43,440 --> 00:12:48,400 Speaker 4: The truly difficult thing is switching gears and the willingness 215 00:12:49,000 --> 00:12:53,840 Speaker 4: being willing to use those skills in situations where I 216 00:12:53,880 --> 00:12:54,400 Speaker 4: don't like. 217 00:12:54,360 --> 00:12:57,760 Speaker 3: What the other person is saying or doing. That is hard. 218 00:12:58,400 --> 00:13:01,120 Speaker 2: Right now, you went to the city of Michigan. I 219 00:13:01,160 --> 00:13:05,280 Speaker 2: went to the University of Detroit. Oh that I can 220 00:13:05,360 --> 00:13:08,040 Speaker 2: say that you went to a great school, and so 221 00:13:08,160 --> 00:13:11,840 Speaker 2: did I. Yeah, how do you How does one validate 222 00:13:11,960 --> 00:13:15,480 Speaker 2: something like that. 223 00:13:14,040 --> 00:13:17,720 Speaker 4: That that that the school is quote unquote good. Yes, so 224 00:13:17,800 --> 00:13:19,200 Speaker 4: that would actually be praise. 225 00:13:19,280 --> 00:13:20,400 Speaker 3: You went to a good. 226 00:13:20,240 --> 00:13:23,080 Speaker 4: School, like I judge it. You judge it as a 227 00:13:23,080 --> 00:13:30,160 Speaker 4: good school. Okay, maybe that would be praise. To validate 228 00:13:30,240 --> 00:13:33,760 Speaker 4: my experience there, you could say something to the effect 229 00:13:33,800 --> 00:13:37,319 Speaker 4: of it must have been pretty challenging. 230 00:13:39,640 --> 00:13:42,840 Speaker 3: It must have. You must have had a lot of 231 00:13:42,920 --> 00:13:44,720 Speaker 3: late nights at that school. 232 00:13:45,040 --> 00:13:48,000 Speaker 4: Right. If that's true for me, then I feel seen like, oh, yeah, 233 00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:50,840 Speaker 4: you get it right. If it's not, then guess what. 234 00:13:50,960 --> 00:13:52,640 Speaker 4: You didn't validate me at all. You just struck out. 235 00:13:52,679 --> 00:13:55,000 Speaker 4: And that happens too no matter how hard you try. 236 00:13:55,160 --> 00:13:56,800 Speaker 2: You had a great football team. 237 00:13:57,320 --> 00:14:01,839 Speaker 3: Right, we praise? Yeah? Maybe you I. 238 00:14:01,760 --> 00:14:03,200 Speaker 2: Don't want to. I don't want to aid you but 239 00:14:03,400 --> 00:14:09,360 Speaker 2: what year were you there? I didn't, oh for Oh yeah, 240 00:14:09,360 --> 00:14:11,640 Speaker 2: it was way after both Chambeckler the coach. 241 00:14:13,040 --> 00:14:16,040 Speaker 3: You know what, though I never went to a football game. 242 00:14:16,520 --> 00:14:20,240 Speaker 2: No, you were on the u of M campus and 243 00:14:20,320 --> 00:14:21,880 Speaker 2: never went to a football game. 244 00:14:22,400 --> 00:14:23,000 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's right. 245 00:14:23,040 --> 00:14:27,440 Speaker 4: It was the best time to study. There was no 246 00:14:27,480 --> 00:14:28,400 Speaker 4: one at the libraries. 247 00:14:29,240 --> 00:14:31,840 Speaker 2: Well, I guess you validated yourself, didn't you. 248 00:14:31,920 --> 00:14:32,680 Speaker 4: Yeah? 249 00:14:32,720 --> 00:14:34,720 Speaker 3: Well no, so actually that's really interesting. 250 00:14:34,760 --> 00:14:38,040 Speaker 4: So when folks do bring up Michigan football to me, right, like, 251 00:14:38,320 --> 00:14:41,440 Speaker 4: that doesn't really map onto my experience in college very much. 252 00:14:42,560 --> 00:14:46,280 Speaker 4: And so the assumption that it would, with which folks 253 00:14:46,280 --> 00:14:48,840 Speaker 4: often make, I mean, if I for me, it doesn't 254 00:14:49,120 --> 00:14:53,160 Speaker 4: like I don't feel seen in that moment because that 255 00:14:53,280 --> 00:14:55,600 Speaker 4: that's not something that was specific to my experience. 256 00:14:55,760 --> 00:14:58,200 Speaker 2: Should I be disappointed in you because you didn't go 257 00:14:58,240 --> 00:14:59,760 Speaker 2: to a U of M football game? 258 00:15:00,960 --> 00:15:02,920 Speaker 3: I don't know, are you? I don't think you should be. 259 00:15:03,880 --> 00:15:10,520 Speaker 2: I'm not not at all, But some people might be, Oh. 260 00:15:10,400 --> 00:15:11,040 Speaker 3: Yeah, of course. 261 00:15:11,080 --> 00:15:17,080 Speaker 4: I mean that's like a quintessential experience. For example, Yeah, yeah, 262 00:15:17,400 --> 00:15:18,000 Speaker 4: what can you do? 263 00:15:19,440 --> 00:15:21,320 Speaker 2: How do you validate a relationship? 264 00:15:23,560 --> 00:15:30,840 Speaker 4: Yeah, so again I think we need to incorporate validation 265 00:15:32,080 --> 00:15:33,760 Speaker 4: and think about it in the same way that we 266 00:15:33,760 --> 00:15:36,600 Speaker 4: think about trust, right Like, in the absence of trust, 267 00:15:37,000 --> 00:15:40,800 Speaker 4: it's you can't really have a solid relationship. Similarly, in 268 00:15:40,840 --> 00:15:44,880 Speaker 4: the absence of validation, you can't have trust, all right, 269 00:15:45,120 --> 00:15:50,520 Speaker 4: I don't trust somebody who doesn't know me like I. 270 00:15:50,640 --> 00:15:54,640 Speaker 4: I it's it's hard to feel trust in the absence 271 00:15:54,640 --> 00:15:56,360 Speaker 4: of feeling seen and accepted. 272 00:15:56,680 --> 00:15:59,840 Speaker 1: Listen to more Coast to Coast am every weeknight at 273 00:15:59,840 --> 00:16:02,800 Speaker 1: one a m. Eastern and go to Coast to coastam 274 00:16:02,960 --> 00:16:04,080 Speaker 1: dot com for more