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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. How did Hollywood megastar Alec

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Speaker 1: Baldwin's shooting death a cinematographer a young mom seemingly disappear

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Speaker 1: off the radar without a blip. He then went on

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Speaker 1: to start in a reality show with his very large family,

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Speaker 1: according to many as some sort of a rehabilitation pr stunt.

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Speaker 1: But has Alec Baldwin's redemption reality show backfired? I Nancy Grace,

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Speaker 1: this is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us.

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Speaker 1: According to TV pundits, a reality show, the ingredients being

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Speaker 1: one famous movie star dad, a glamorous, much younger mother

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Speaker 1: mixed with seven beautiful children. It should be a hit,

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Speaker 1: right maybe, but that pesky manslaughter charge may have ruined

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Speaker 1: the whole thing. Instead of a hitney series, according to

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Speaker 1: TV critics, it's the worst TV program in many years.

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Speaker 1: I'm frankly much more concerned by Helena Hutchins's death seemingly

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Speaker 1: disappearing falling through the cracks of our justice system. But

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Speaker 1: according to critics, the Baldwins, the series that's the title

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Speaker 1: where the couple are executive producers, is called a quote

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Speaker 1: New Low. Another says it's quote one of the darkest

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Speaker 1: and most bizarre hours of TV to appear in recent memory.

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Speaker 1: You know, it's hard to focus on the so called

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Speaker 1: joyous family life of seven children and two parents when

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Speaker 1: the ghost of Alena Hutchins is hovering over the entire production.

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Speaker 2: What happened tragedy on the film set of a new

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Speaker 2: Alec Baldwin movie and what police are calling a misfire

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Speaker 2: of a prop gun in Santa Fe, New Mexico. The

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Speaker 2: Sheriff's office there has just confirmed it was Baldwin who

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Speaker 2: fired the prop gun that killed a forty two year

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Speaker 2: old female director of stotography, Helena Hutchins. The film's director

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Speaker 2: Juels Sousa was also hurt. This incident happened on the

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Speaker 2: set of the Western Rust. Now detectives are investigating what

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Speaker 2: type of projectile discharged from this gun?

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Speaker 1: You are just hearing Our friend Christine Johnson was CBS

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Speaker 1: what really happened? According to reports, the assistant yelled out

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Speaker 1: cold gun just before the shooting, which means the gun

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Speaker 1: was safe, that it was loaded with a blank. So

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Speaker 1: how do we have a woman, dad, another film person injured?

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Speaker 1: With me and I'll start panel to make sense of

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Speaker 1: it all if we can with me Domini, Romano lawyer

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Speaker 1: joining us out of New York at Romano Law dot

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Speaker 1: Com is specialty entertainment law, and I can tell you

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Speaker 1: if somebody's going to need a lawyer. Doctor Sherry Schwartz

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Speaker 1: forensic psychologists joining us. Karen L. Smith, forensic expert, host

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Speaker 1: of Shattered Soul's podcast at Beer Bonesforensics dot com. Paul

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Speaker 1: Zeike joining us special guest, former police commander and author

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Speaker 1: of Stop Him From Killing Them on Amazon, and he

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Speaker 1: has lots of experience using firearms with blanks during live

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Speaker 1: action movie scenes like Terminator Salvation. Doctor Michelle Dupre forensic pathologists,

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Speaker 1: former medical examiner, author of Homicide Investigation Field Guide, and

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Speaker 1: a former police detective. But first to Alexis Terres, Crime

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Speaker 1: online dot com investigative reporter joining us from Hollywood, Alexis

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Speaker 1: is what is getting folded into the story, right or wrong?

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Speaker 1: Is Alec Baldwin's history, his reputation for let me just

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Speaker 1: say hot headedness to put it ephemistically. If he thought

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Speaker 1: it was a blank and it should have been a blank,

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Speaker 1: then history aside it was an accident. But how can

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Speaker 1: it really be an accident when somebody loaded this prop

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Speaker 1: gun with real bullets just started.

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Speaker 3: At the beginning, they were on a set in Santa Fe,

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Speaker 3: New Mexico. It's a Western style movie. So they were

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Speaker 3: sitting in a church at an old church Seene and

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Speaker 3: Alex Baldwen was sitting in one of the pewes and

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Speaker 3: he was practicing.

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Speaker 4: What's called a cross draw.

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Speaker 3: And so that would be where the person takes your

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Speaker 3: left hand and grabs the gun out of the holster

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Speaker 3: on your speak opposite a hip, pulled it across to fire.

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Speaker 5: He was practicing this.

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Speaker 3: Move standing the cinematographer, which is the person that makes

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Speaker 3: the movie beautiful. This is the person that films the scene.

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Speaker 3: She was standing in front of him with the assistant

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Speaker 3: director stand Lumbard, with the director standing right behind her.

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Speaker 4: He was looking over her.

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Speaker 3: Shoulder to see what it would look like when Alex

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Speaker 3: pulled the gun out. He pulled it out of the side,

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Speaker 3: points it at her to show them, pulls the trigger

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Speaker 3: and it fires a live round into her. Hits her

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Speaker 3: in the stomach and actually, believe goes through her and

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Speaker 3: grazes the director sitting standing right behind her.

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Speaker 1: Hush has pronounced dead at an Albuquerque hospital after being

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Speaker 1: rushed to the emergency room. You know what, I always

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Speaker 1: love playing nine to one one calls for a jury

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Speaker 1: because it takes you back to what's really happening. Not

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Speaker 1: a description, not someone recounting what happened, but you're hearing

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Speaker 1: what really happened. Take a listen to the beginning of that.

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Speaker 1: I'm on one call.

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Speaker 4: Only going one.

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Speaker 6: Watch the location of your emergency.

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Speaker 7: We need a that we.

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Speaker 6: Needed and out a Bonanza free grants right now. We

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Speaker 6: got to people shot on the accidentally. He said someone

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Speaker 6: was shot. Two people accidentally with guns, gunshot cart on

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Speaker 6: movie sets and a creek. Granted it. I'll connect you

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Speaker 6: with medical decided. Who are you calling?

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Speaker 7: Where are the road?

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Speaker 6: Don't hire emergency Bonanza free grants.

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Speaker 4: Two people accidentally shot on a movie set top guns.

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Speaker 6: We need help the immediate, like Finanza free grants. Come on,

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Speaker 6: say almost phone, we're going to Okay, what is your name?

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Speaker 3: Namely Mitchell?

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Speaker 6: That Mitchell wants upon where you're calling from?

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Speaker 2: Five up?

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Speaker 7: So I hang up?

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Speaker 6: Okay one second sounds like somebody else is calling for

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Speaker 6: calling better mission. Everybody should be can helpers director in

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Speaker 6: our cameraman as the camera woman's shots.

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Speaker 1: Now you hear repeatedly the word accident accidentally throughout that?

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Speaker 1: But is it an accident? Very often when you have,

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Speaker 1: for instance, a dui crash, people go, well, it was

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Speaker 1: an accident, But was it because the driver chooses to

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Speaker 1: go to a bar to order drinks, to drink, to

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Speaker 1: become legally intoxicated, to then get the car keys, walk

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Speaker 1: to the car, get in the car, crank up reverse,

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Speaker 1: and drive out onto the roads. That sounds pretty deliberate.

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Speaker 1: So is it an accident? Is it negligence? Well take

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Speaker 1: a listen to more of that nine on one call.

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Speaker 4: So was it loaded with a real bullet?

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Speaker 6: Or I don't I cannot start you up? Okay, we

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Speaker 6: have two injuries from the movies. Guns Jock were getting

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Speaker 6: out there already just down upon with an Okay, it

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Speaker 6: was that yelled at me at lunch because ask him

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Speaker 6: about revision. You can ye and yell at me. He's

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Speaker 6: a suctested gun. He's reponsible to answer.

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Speaker 3: How many?

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Speaker 6: No, no, no, I'm a super hard I ran People

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Speaker 6: were injured too, that I know of.

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Speaker 4: I was seeing.

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Speaker 6: We were hurting and it went off and I ran out.

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Speaker 6: We all ran out. They were doubled over the id

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Speaker 6: and the camera woman and the director and the directors

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Speaker 6: were clearing the road. Tan to come back. We're back

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Speaker 6: on the way.

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Speaker 8: We're back in the town.

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Speaker 9: I called them.

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Speaker 6: We're back in the western town.

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Speaker 4: Is there any serious bleedings?

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Speaker 9: I don't know.

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Speaker 6: I ran out of the building and I still have

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Speaker 6: to go through these Okay, are they alert?

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Speaker 1: I'm hearing a lot of discussion in the background. You

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Speaker 1: hear this speaker talking to somebody else about someone yelling

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Speaker 1: at her and lunch about script revision, and she says

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Speaker 1: she's supposed to shack the gun. He's responsible for what happened. No, No,

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Speaker 1: I'm a script supervisor Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. That's right.

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Speaker 1: There never seems to be an end to the Alec

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Speaker 1: Baldwin manslaughter saga. Now apparently this couple, Alec Baldwin and

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Speaker 1: his wife see to think that a reality show was

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Speaker 1: the answer to his pr problems caused by the shooting

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Speaker 1: death at his hand of a beautiful young mom, a

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Speaker 1: cinematographer on the set of movie Rust. But the fallout

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Speaker 1: of that shooting may have doomed the reality show. Aside

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Speaker 1: from the reality show, I can't get my mind off

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Speaker 1: the fact that Alec Baldwin insisted he did not pull

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Speaker 1: the trigger, but according to ballistics experts, that is a lie.

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Speaker 1: What happened on the set of Rust? And why are

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Speaker 1: we now reduced to simply analyzing a reality show? Where

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Speaker 1: is the justice? Paul Zake, thank you for being with us.

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Speaker 1: What went wrong? Obviously there was a live bullet and

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Speaker 1: what should have been a prop gun. But what happened?

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Speaker 7: Nancy? The explanation for this is a systemic breakdown in

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Speaker 7: systems that are in place to ensure that live ammunition

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Speaker 7: is not present on the set.

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Speaker 1: Okay, now that was a lot of words, Paul's I

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Speaker 1: think you're saying somebody didn't do their job.

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Speaker 7: Well, absolutely, somebody did not do their job and catastrophically

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Speaker 7: did not do that. There's no reason whatsoever for live

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Speaker 7: ammunition to be on the set of any set because

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Speaker 7: these weapons are capable of firing live rounds. They're not

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Speaker 7: really prop guns. They're deadly weapons being used as props.

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Speaker 1: Okay, hold on right there, I want to make that distinction.

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Speaker 1: You're absolutely right. When look, I'm a trial lawyer, I'm

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Speaker 1: a legal expert. You're the expert in this world. When

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Speaker 1: I say prompt gun, I mean they're using it as

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Speaker 1: a prop. But you're making a very fine, subtle, but

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Speaker 1: important distinction. A prompt gun is a fake gun. I

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Speaker 1: don't think it even can Is that right?

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Speaker 7: Exactly? If you're talking about say it prop nice? Correct,

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Speaker 7: It has a flat edge on it. It's incapable of

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Speaker 7: cutting you. These are things that are not deemed to

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Speaker 7: be dangerous. A prop gun is simply as utilized on

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Speaker 7: set our weapons that are capable of firing live ammunition

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Speaker 7: and therefore accidentally live ammunition could be mixed with blank rounds.

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Speaker 7: You know, given time, this is just a disaster waiting

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Speaker 7: to happen. They need to move to true guns that

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Speaker 7: are incapable of chambering live ammunition. Until that happens, this

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Speaker 7: has a very strong chance of repeating itself.

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Speaker 1: Well, okay, tell me this. Paul z Iike guys with me.

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Speaker 10: Paul z II.

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Speaker 1: He is a former police commander. He's an author, screen

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Speaker 1: actors guil and has experience using blanks during live action

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Speaker 1: movie scenes where we all think they're shooting real guns.

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Speaker 1: If you suspend your disbelief in movies like Terminator Salvation

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Speaker 1: and those aren't real guns. So why are they using

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Speaker 1: a real gun to start with? Paul Zeike, and I

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Speaker 1: mean to me, having been forced to handle so many

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Speaker 1: guns and so many homicides, what moron wouldn't make sure

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Speaker 1: that there were blanks in the gun.

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Speaker 7: It's hard to imagine that during the loading of the

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Speaker 7: weapon that that was not viewed very strictly as a

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Speaker 7: weapon is loaded. And also there's a chain of custody

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Speaker 7: issue here on the scene of Terminator Salvation. As we

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Speaker 7: would go out and we would you conduct the battle scene,

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Speaker 7: if you will, in the middle of the night. We

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Speaker 7: would be handed directly from the armor fully automatic weapons

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Speaker 7: and magazines, fully loaded with blanks, and we would head

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Speaker 7: straight out to where the scene was to be shot,

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Speaker 7: and then we would engage in the scene, you know,

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Speaker 7: five ten minutes later, hand the weapons straight back to

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Speaker 7: the armor, all the ammunition back to the armor, all

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Speaker 7: the magazines back to the arm, and we would not

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Speaker 7: be able to touch those weapons again until the next scene.

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Speaker 7: So from a chain of custody standpoint, I went directly

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Speaker 7: from the armor directly to my hand, my the co

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Speaker 7: actor's hands that were with me, and that was maintained

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Speaker 7: very strictly.

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Speaker 1: Hold on, Paul, I've got to soak in everything. You're saying,

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Speaker 1: because Dominic Romano, a high profile lawyer, joining us out

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Speaker 1: of New York's specialty entertainment law. And that's why Dominate's

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Speaker 1: joining us today. Dominick hold On. When you heard Paul's

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Speaker 1: like say, chain of custody, I immediately thought of a

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Speaker 1: serial murderer that I prosecuted on one murder. We could

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Speaker 1: get them on one and there ended up I would

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Speaker 1: say three weeks before trial. I was just looking at

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Speaker 1: the evidence and I noticed that the bag that contained

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Speaker 1: the evidence wasn't signed. It had never been signed by

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Speaker 1: the homicide cop that picked it up from It was DNA,

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Speaker 1: and there's blood from where it had been taken and

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Speaker 1: carried to the crime lab. It wasn't written on the back.

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Speaker 1: Did anybody ten for with it? No, he just didn't

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Speaker 1: put his initials. I'm like, oh, dear Lord in Heaven,

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Speaker 1: the chain is broken. This could be attacked at trial.

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Speaker 1: I had to go back out to the jail stand

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Speaker 1: there and look at this killer while he pulled his

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Speaker 1: blood again. Then I carried it with my investigator myself

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Speaker 1: back to the crime lab to have it retested. Praise

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Speaker 1: the Lord in Heaven. It was his DNA. Long story short,

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Speaker 1: that's chain of custody. Your case can be lost. You

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Speaker 1: can lose a serial killer because somebody didn't keep the

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Speaker 1: chain to preserve the integrity of the trial. That's what

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Speaker 1: I thought when Paul Zaike sapt chain of custody. But

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Speaker 1: did you also hear him say dominic romano he handed

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Speaker 1: it back to the It sounded like he was saying

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Speaker 1: armor or armory. But I've been reading about this case.

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Speaker 1: It's an arm er, armor er who is the person

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Speaker 1: in charge of all the weapons?

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Speaker 7: Absolutely right.

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Speaker 10: Look, no one should ever be killed by a gun

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Speaker 10: on a film set period. Those are the words of

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Speaker 10: Brandon Lee's sister. Brandon Lee shot on a film set

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Speaker 10: in the early nineteen nineties. This should not happen. There

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Speaker 10: are established protocols, gaines who commend I mean, there appears

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Speaker 10: to be some serious gross negligence on that set to

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Speaker 10: allow that to have that. That is the appearance, And

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Speaker 10: I don't know what evidence can come out to rebut.

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Speaker 1: That presumption a live round in well as Paul's Ike

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Speaker 1: is correct in me, it's not a prop gun. They

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Speaker 1: were using real guns. Hey, let me ask you a question,

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Speaker 1: Paul's Ike, explain the difference and what a blank looks

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Speaker 1: like as opposed to a live round of bullet. We're

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Speaker 1: saying live rounds, we're talking about a bullet. What's the difference.

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Speaker 1: Can't you just look at them and you can see

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Speaker 1: the difference In.

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Speaker 7: Most cases, absolutely, it's very clear. You can see the

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Speaker 7: difference in some types of calibers, say two two three,

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Speaker 7: if you will, that's what an AR fifteen would shoot.

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Speaker 7: The blanks are kind of crimped at the end to

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Speaker 7: almost look like there's a bullet on the end of them.

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Speaker 7: With any sort of trained professional whatsoever, when you're handling

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Speaker 7: a blank, you know it's a blank. When it's a bullet,

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Speaker 7: you know it's a bullet. The blank does not have

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Speaker 7: a lead projectile or a steel projectile at the end

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Speaker 7: of the round, so at the end it's either flat

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Speaker 7: or it's slightly crimped to hold in the gunpowder, which

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Speaker 7: you know, the firearm usually needs the gunpowder to correctly

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Speaker 7: function the weapon and cycle the weapon.

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Speaker 10: And that's one of the reasons why blanks are used.

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Speaker 1: Okay, Paul Zych, I really respect you, but you're going

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Speaker 1: to have to dumb me down for me, okay, because

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Speaker 1: I would have to put you to intensive training before

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Speaker 1: you take the stand, because a lot of people do

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Speaker 1: not know what you just said. Just think about it.

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Speaker 1: Thank if there's a way you can say it in

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Speaker 1: more simple terms. What's the difference between a blank and

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Speaker 1: a lie bullet when you look at it? Speak English

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Speaker 1: Man in the meantime, White a minute. You mentioned Brandon Lee,

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Speaker 1: and you're absolutely right. We pulled sound of other cases

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Speaker 1: almost identical to this. This is not the first time

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Speaker 1: it's happened, believe it or not, Tyler, could you roll

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Speaker 1: our cut forty four? Let's follow up on what Paul

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Speaker 1: Zike said about Brandon Lee.

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Speaker 11: That's a bulley comes from that killed Brandon Lee.

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Speaker 1: Some believe a piece of a proply.

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Speaker 11: Without gunpowder, and it may have been left accidentally in

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Speaker 11: the gun. The blank was fired at Brandon. Some feel

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Speaker 11: let's shot out the propoly.

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Speaker 7: Mortally wounding him.

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Speaker 4: He was an action waiting to happen.

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Speaker 11: The Crow crewmember we spoke with says that there were

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Speaker 11: many opportunities for an accident to happen. Are the working

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Speaker 11: conditions on the set of the Crow particularly bad trely

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Speaker 11: long hours eighteen hour days back to back at times

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Speaker 11: pushing ninety one hundred hours a week.

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Speaker 8: And six day weeks wait too much.

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Speaker 11: Do you think that that over work, that exhaustion might

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Speaker 11: have resulted in this accident?

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Speaker 9: Sage your conscience, olive them.

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Speaker 10: We're definitely not comic. It could have been prevented.

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Speaker 1: With better management. The publicist for.

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Speaker 11: The movie The Crow denies that the working conditions were unsafe.

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Speaker 8: Certainly everyone was very tired and exhausted from the shoe,

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Speaker 8: but these are professionals and they're used to working conditions

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Speaker 8: like this.

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Speaker 1: Okay, guys, you were hearing our friends and Inside Edition,

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Speaker 1: and I want to follow up on what we're just

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Speaker 1: hearing with Alexis Tereschuk. I played that sound for a reason, Alexis,

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Speaker 1: because on the Alec Baldwin set of Rust, there apparently

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Speaker 1: were problems with working conditions. A group of the crew

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Speaker 1: had walked out, I think the night before the claiming

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Speaker 1: that they had bad hotels. They were an hour away

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Speaker 1: from a hotel or motel, and if they worked late

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Speaker 1: into the night they have to drive through I guess

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Speaker 1: the desert, and a lot of them were actually sleeping

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Speaker 1: in their cars overnight. That's just some of the complaints

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Speaker 1: I've heard. But what are the other complaints, if any

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Speaker 1: on the Alec Baldwin movie set.

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Speaker 3: Well, there have been complaints that things were not safe quote,

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Speaker 3: but one of the person is being directly blamed for

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Speaker 3: a lot of the unfaked is when you were listening

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Speaker 3: to the nine one one call and you said you

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Speaker 3: heard the woman saying that he was yelling at me

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Speaker 3: things like that. This is the assistant director that they're

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Speaker 3: talking about. And this is the assistant director, David Halls

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Speaker 3: who handed the gun to Baldwin and said this is

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Speaker 3: a cold gun. So what the people on the set

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Speaker 3: were saying is that Halls was not a responcable person.

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Speaker 3: He was very angry. He was making the job very

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Speaker 3: difficult for everybody to do, and they did it to

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Speaker 3: trust him.

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Speaker 1: Wait a minute, you're saying David Halls was an assistant director. Yeah, okay,

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Speaker 1: well what about the honor. Isn't she the one responsible

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Speaker 1: for all the weapons and the blanks or the bullets? Guys,

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Speaker 1: take another Listen to hour cut forty three. This is

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Speaker 1: about practically the same thing happening before. Listen.

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Speaker 11: It was here at the Carrol Coast Studios in Wilmington,

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Speaker 11: North Carolina that actor Brandon Lee was filming The Crow. Ironically,

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Speaker 11: The film is about a man who dies and comes

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Speaker 11: back to life to advanish his death. Shortly after midnight

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Speaker 11: last Tuesday, Brandon Lee was preparing to film a routine

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Speaker 11: action scene. The script called for him to get shot

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Speaker 11: at as he walks through a door carrying a bag

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Speaker 11: of groceries. Michael Massey, the actor doing the shooting, is

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Speaker 11: reportedly devastated by Lee's death and remains in seclusion. The

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Speaker 11: gun he was using was supposed to be loaded with

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Speaker 11: blanks from the camera's rule. Brandon Lee was performing for

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Speaker 11: the last time.

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Speaker 1: The first episodes of a reality show starring Alec Baldwin,

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Speaker 1: his wife, and their seven children are hitting the airwaves now.

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Speaker 1: According to a string of pr specialist, no one could

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Speaker 1: imagine any size or whatever recommended. The ball was agreed

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Speaker 1: to a reality series in the very best of times,

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Speaker 1: let alone after the shooting death of cinematographer Helena Hutchins,

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Speaker 1: Why are you and Karen Smith?

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Speaker 5: Well, we deal a lot with forensics in physics. When

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Speaker 5: we do a reconstruction, we use snippets of time and

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Speaker 5: sometimes that can be split seconds, and this includes trajectories

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Speaker 5: of projectiles, and this trajectory.

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Speaker 9: Can generally be explained by the reporting Alec Baldwin.

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Speaker 5: Was reported to be sitting at.

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Speaker 9: A church pew to align a camera angle when the

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Speaker 9: gun was fired. Alena Hutchins then collapsed.

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Speaker 5: On the floor and Joel Susa.

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Speaker 1: Was struck in the clavicles.

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Speaker 5: That's an upward trajectory, which means both Hutchins and Susa

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Speaker 5: were standing up when the event occurred. The projectile that

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Speaker 5: perforated Helena's body and subsequently struck Joel.

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Speaker 9: Now, in order for that to happen, the kinetic energy,

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Speaker 9: which is energy as the result of motion, would be

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Speaker 9: very high. We're dealing with.

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Speaker 5: Mass or the amount of matter in an object and

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Speaker 5: energy dispersion.

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Speaker 9: Guns carry a high volume of energy in a small space,

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Speaker 9: and that from my experience, it tells me that it

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Speaker 9: was something.

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Speaker 5: Other than just the paper or elastic.

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Speaker 9: Wadding from a blank round. That needs to be confirmed

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Speaker 9: by the EMMY.

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Speaker 5: And the investigators.

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Speaker 9: But there are reports of live ammunition bullets being on

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Speaker 9: the set and that particular gun allegedly being used.

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Speaker 5: For target practice that morning. There's a lot of questions

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Speaker 5: that needs to be answered by the investigators.

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Speaker 1: And the EMMY. Again for the set being used as

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Speaker 1: target practice. Paul Zike that that shouldn't be that you've

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Speaker 1: got crew members out shooting bottles. I think that that's

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Speaker 1: coming out with live bullets and use that same gun

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Speaker 1: for a sane and a church full of people.

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Speaker 7: And Nancy, I just want to clarify the prior point,

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Speaker 7: so very simply, a blank is a is a shellcasing

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Speaker 7: with gun powder in it, no bullet. A bullet is

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Speaker 7: the same exact thing with more gunpowder and a live

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Speaker 7: bullet at the end of it that is made to

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Speaker 7: travel through the barrel and exit the weapon. Back to

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Speaker 7: what you were saying, that the cardinal rule, it's been broken,

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Speaker 7: whether you're whether you're involved in police training or you're

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Speaker 7: involved in a movie set, keeping live ammunition away from

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Speaker 7: weapons that fire live ammunition and keeping weapons at fire

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Speaker 7: blanks away from those instances. And when you mix those

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Speaker 7: two together, the odds of somebody having a spare live

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Speaker 7: round in one of their pockets or you name it

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Speaker 7: is super high, and it sounds very sloppy, and it

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Speaker 7: just just opens the door for terrible things to happen.

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Speaker 7: And that's where the systemic breakdown and that controlled environment.

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Speaker 1: Un Johniet Paul Zeke, You're right, super sloppy is one

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Speaker 1: way to put it. Gross negligence or unintentional murder is

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Speaker 1: another way to put it. I think I hear dominant

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Speaker 1: Ramano jumping in go ahead.

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Speaker 10: Yeah, basically it's a catastrophic miscalculation. I think two people

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Speaker 10: here should be folks. We should focus on one is

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Speaker 10: the armor like this is only according to reports, her

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Speaker 10: second movie with Chairs Read and the assistant director Dave

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Speaker 10: Halls you mentioned before. According to reports, he was fired

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Speaker 10: from a twenty nineteen production of Freedom's Past. I remember

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Speaker 10: suffered a minor injury.

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Speaker 1: Whoa whit a minute? Why why white white? You got

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Speaker 1: me drinking from the fire hydrant, which is not a

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Speaker 1: bad thing. It's too much at once. Hold on, why

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Speaker 1: in the world would you have somebody that was fired

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Speaker 1: off another similar job handling your weapon? Okay? Is that

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Speaker 1: what you just said, dominic?

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Speaker 7: Okay?

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Speaker 1: Almost, so almost.

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Speaker 10: The armorer is twenty four years old, the person handling

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Speaker 10: the weapons. It's only her second film. She was just

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Speaker 10: in a podcast last month where she said, you know,

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Speaker 10: it's a bit nervous about her film, but it went well.

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Speaker 10: Her father's apparently famous armor. Okay, so we have that

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Speaker 10: an experienced armor number two. We have the assistant director

437
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Speaker 10: one of the AD Dave Holes. Apparently, according to a report,

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Speaker 10: he was fired from its twenty nineteen production. The movie

439
00:26:12,560 --> 00:26:16,159
Speaker 10: was freedom passed after crew members suffered guess what a

440
00:26:16,400 --> 00:26:20,200
Speaker 10: minor injury when a gun unexpectedly discharged?

441
00:26:21,560 --> 00:26:26,119
Speaker 1: Dominate Romano, The words similar transactions are jumping to mind.

442
00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:31,520
Speaker 1: I mean, this solidifies my thought that this is not

443
00:26:31,680 --> 00:26:36,000
Speaker 1: an accident, because an accident when you totally don't see

444
00:26:36,040 --> 00:26:38,560
Speaker 1: it coming, it's just like out of the blue. But

445
00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:41,159
Speaker 1: if this guy, if it's correct, the AD had a

446
00:26:41,320 --> 00:26:45,240
Speaker 1: previous incident where somebody was shot on a set. Even

447
00:26:45,240 --> 00:26:48,880
Speaker 1: if it was a minor injury, then you should have seen.

448
00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:51,119
Speaker 1: You either new or should have known. Would you agree

449
00:26:51,160 --> 00:26:52,320
Speaker 1: with that, Dominic Romano.

450
00:26:52,680 --> 00:26:57,439
Speaker 10: There're going to be some serious questions to be asked,

451
00:26:57,560 --> 00:27:01,840
Speaker 10: and there have to be answers. And if we don't

452
00:27:01,960 --> 00:27:05,920
Speaker 10: have good answers, someone is either going to be involved

453
00:27:05,960 --> 00:27:09,960
Speaker 10: in a very expensive lawsuit or, depending on what they

454
00:27:10,040 --> 00:27:12,159
Speaker 10: knew and when they knew it and how careless they were,

455
00:27:13,040 --> 00:27:16,080
Speaker 10: probably facing some time. The other issue you alluded to

456
00:27:16,160 --> 00:27:20,719
Speaker 10: earlier is cost cutting. It's rampant in the industry right now,

457
00:27:21,160 --> 00:27:26,120
Speaker 10: and the production company's decision not to book the crew

458
00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:30,240
Speaker 10: hotel rooms near the actual set, but to have them

459
00:27:30,320 --> 00:27:33,040
Speaker 10: travel an hour in each direction to get to and

460
00:27:33,160 --> 00:27:38,080
Speaker 10: from their accommodation, to have long hours where people walked

461
00:27:38,119 --> 00:27:41,639
Speaker 10: off the set earlier that day in protest. So this

462
00:27:42,119 --> 00:27:45,639
Speaker 10: is a combination what turned out to be a lethal

463
00:27:45,760 --> 00:27:49,800
Speaker 10: combination at catastrophic calculation on the part of the production company.

464
00:27:49,920 --> 00:27:52,800
Speaker 1: Well, you just said a mouthful, all in a good way,

465
00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:56,960
Speaker 1: betraying the armor or being an experienced the ad having

466
00:27:57,040 --> 00:28:01,720
Speaker 1: a prior similar transaction, and budget cuts problems amongst the crew.

467
00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:05,280
Speaker 1: Take a listen to our cut six that are from

468
00:28:05,280 --> 00:28:06,480
Speaker 1: our friends at News Nation.

469
00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:09,880
Speaker 8: Now let's start with the people responsible for handling a gun.

470
00:28:10,040 --> 00:28:13,040
Speaker 8: There are no ubiquitous rules across all film sets, but

471
00:28:13,200 --> 00:28:14,840
Speaker 8: generally there are some guidelines that they.

472
00:28:14,800 --> 00:28:16,560
Speaker 1: Follow, and here into a budget.

473
00:28:16,640 --> 00:28:19,159
Speaker 8: Budget usually plays a big role. On many sets, there

474
00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:22,800
Speaker 8: are no fewer than three people responsible for monitoring a weapon.

475
00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:25,200
Speaker 8: The prop master FUMS, in charge of all cropts, is

476
00:28:25,280 --> 00:28:28,280
Speaker 8: often supported by a safety officer and a SUN coordinator,

477
00:28:28,560 --> 00:28:30,480
Speaker 8: and depending on the state, you may also need to

478
00:28:30,520 --> 00:28:33,840
Speaker 8: bring in an armorer whose only job is handling weapons.

479
00:28:34,200 --> 00:28:36,800
Speaker 8: An armorer is required by New Mexico.

480
00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:37,240
Speaker 7: State Law.

481
00:28:45,360 --> 00:28:54,400
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. According to Baldwin's manager quote,

482
00:28:54,600 --> 00:28:59,520
Speaker 1: there actually hasn't been much criticism of the first episodes. Also,

483
00:29:00,320 --> 00:29:03,400
Speaker 1: it's been very well received at TLC and everybody's very

484
00:29:03,520 --> 00:29:10,240
Speaker 1: happy with it. Others strongly disagree. Reality series or no

485
00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:15,520
Speaker 1: reality series, pr be damned. I'm more concerned about the

486
00:29:15,600 --> 00:29:19,960
Speaker 1: shooting depth of Elena Hutchins, Doctor Dupree. I'm sure you,

487
00:29:20,560 --> 00:29:24,760
Speaker 1: like myself, have had to handle weapons in front of

488
00:29:24,960 --> 00:29:29,400
Speaker 1: jury's and I learned this from watching a pro try cases.

489
00:29:30,640 --> 00:29:35,080
Speaker 1: I would always pick the gun up, holding it face

490
00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:38,600
Speaker 1: down with a barrel pointing to the ground so the

491
00:29:38,760 --> 00:29:41,760
Speaker 1: jury or anyone else would not be alarmed. What you

492
00:29:41,920 --> 00:29:45,000
Speaker 1: don't want to do is scare your jury. I would

493
00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:48,160
Speaker 1: walk in front of the jury holding the weapon nose down,

494
00:29:49,040 --> 00:29:52,760
Speaker 1: open the chamber, let them see me check it, hold

495
00:29:52,840 --> 00:29:56,200
Speaker 1: it up like I was examining it through, you know,

496
00:29:56,800 --> 00:30:00,560
Speaker 1: at my eye level, so they can see that it

497
00:30:00,680 --> 00:30:04,040
Speaker 1: was empty, and then shut it and then give it

498
00:30:04,120 --> 00:30:08,360
Speaker 1: to the witness without fail. Even if it was a

499
00:30:08,440 --> 00:30:13,320
Speaker 1: weapon that I knew it was inoperable, that was sp

500
00:30:15,760 --> 00:30:19,000
Speaker 1: Why would that not occur on a movie set? But

501
00:30:19,120 --> 00:30:22,360
Speaker 1: describe how you're supposed to handle weapons.

502
00:30:22,200 --> 00:30:24,920
Speaker 4: Exactly, Nancy, you described it perfectly. That is exactly what

503
00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:27,040
Speaker 4: you should do. And if you're giving a weapon to

504
00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:30,200
Speaker 4: someone else, normally you have the chamber open so that

505
00:30:30,320 --> 00:30:33,360
Speaker 4: they can also see, and then you both check it

506
00:30:33,640 --> 00:30:36,640
Speaker 4: and know that it's empty or that the blanks.

507
00:30:36,320 --> 00:30:39,200
Speaker 1: Are in it. Tell me what you can discern about

508
00:30:39,640 --> 00:30:44,080
Speaker 1: what Karen Smith, forensics expert, just told us about the injuries.

509
00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:48,560
Speaker 4: What happened, Nancy, Even though these are quote prop guns

510
00:30:48,760 --> 00:30:53,080
Speaker 4: or blanks, they can still obviously do devastating damage the

511
00:30:53,520 --> 00:30:56,200
Speaker 4: wadding or whatever they are filled with, even in a blank.

512
00:30:56,360 --> 00:30:59,200
Speaker 4: But this was not a blink. This was an actual projectile.

513
00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:00,960
Speaker 4: Know you mean a.

514
00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:04,120
Speaker 1: Bullet speak English play a bullet.

515
00:31:04,520 --> 00:31:08,360
Speaker 4: Yes, yes, this is a bullet. And the caliber of

516
00:31:08,520 --> 00:31:10,920
Speaker 4: that bullet of the gun is what is going to

517
00:31:11,040 --> 00:31:15,040
Speaker 4: determine how much damage is done. As she explained, the

518
00:31:15,240 --> 00:31:18,920
Speaker 4: higher the caliber, the more energy in that bullet, and

519
00:31:19,040 --> 00:31:21,440
Speaker 4: so the more damage done to the physical bodies. And

520
00:31:21,560 --> 00:31:25,000
Speaker 4: of course the location where that bullet enters the body

521
00:31:25,400 --> 00:31:27,560
Speaker 4: in this case was devastating.

522
00:31:28,040 --> 00:31:30,280
Speaker 1: You know, another issue to doctor Sherry Schwartz, I've been

523
00:31:30,320 --> 00:31:33,360
Speaker 1: on a lot of TV sets obviously, and movie sets

524
00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:38,520
Speaker 1: for you know, cameos or some legal issue. And I

525
00:31:38,600 --> 00:31:41,920
Speaker 1: got to tell you, doctor Sherry Schwartz, a movie set

526
00:31:42,040 --> 00:31:45,400
Speaker 1: takes on a whole. It's like you're in a different world.

527
00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:47,880
Speaker 1: Like when you go to the movies and you sit

528
00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:51,840
Speaker 1: down and it goes dark, your mind takes you there. Well,

529
00:31:51,840 --> 00:31:54,840
Speaker 1: you're on a movie set. I've never been on a

530
00:31:54,920 --> 00:31:58,040
Speaker 1: single movie set that went on time. You go till

531
00:31:58,160 --> 00:32:02,240
Speaker 1: one or two o'clock, and the more it's pitch dark outside,

532
00:32:02,560 --> 00:32:05,080
Speaker 1: you keep going until you get the shot or you

533
00:32:05,160 --> 00:32:07,800
Speaker 1: finish this scene or whatever it's called in movie world.

534
00:32:08,880 --> 00:32:14,200
Speaker 1: I think that there is a suspended fear you think

535
00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:15,920
Speaker 1: you're at a movie set, like when you go to

536
00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:19,520
Speaker 1: Disneyland or when you're on vacation on a cruise ship.

537
00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:25,280
Speaker 1: You suspend your normal thinking it doesn't seem real and

538
00:32:25,440 --> 00:32:28,200
Speaker 1: you're not thinking, wow, there's a gun, I could get

539
00:32:28,280 --> 00:32:32,400
Speaker 1: shot because it's quote just a movie, it's not real.

540
00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:37,600
Speaker 1: How do we let me just say, suspend our disbelief,

541
00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:42,520
Speaker 1: suspend rational rules of functioning when you're on a movie

542
00:32:42,600 --> 00:32:44,280
Speaker 1: set or in a movie. You know, like in a

543
00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:47,640
Speaker 1: movie is where there's some nut with a gun and

544
00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:50,000
Speaker 1: you hear a sound, but you don't think it's real

545
00:32:50,120 --> 00:32:53,720
Speaker 1: because you're in a movie. What happens in the human mind?

546
00:32:53,840 --> 00:32:57,920
Speaker 12: Doctor Sherry, Well, when you don't think that something is

547
00:32:58,720 --> 00:33:04,120
Speaker 12: actually real, then you would not calculate accurately what the

548
00:33:04,200 --> 00:33:08,880
Speaker 12: potential risks are, right, And so there is this gun

549
00:33:09,080 --> 00:33:11,520
Speaker 12: on the set, but everybody thinks, oh, it's just make believe,

550
00:33:11,600 --> 00:33:15,320
Speaker 12: we're setting this up to film it. Nobody's actually going

551
00:33:15,440 --> 00:33:18,680
Speaker 12: to get hurt. And so what happens mentally is that

552
00:33:19,280 --> 00:33:23,240
Speaker 12: you underestimate what the potential risks are. And what happened

553
00:33:23,280 --> 00:33:27,680
Speaker 12: here is an egregious underestimation, right, So for.

554
00:33:27,720 --> 00:33:29,240
Speaker 4: The rest of us, it's to make believes.

555
00:33:29,520 --> 00:33:32,200
Speaker 12: Maybe even for the actor, they know that they're just

556
00:33:32,320 --> 00:33:34,520
Speaker 12: playing a role, and everybody around them might know they're

557
00:33:34,560 --> 00:33:37,160
Speaker 12: playing a role. But there are people on the set

558
00:33:37,240 --> 00:33:40,800
Speaker 12: who are responsible for that gun and for taking that

559
00:33:41,040 --> 00:33:44,280
Speaker 12: proper care and knowing what the potential risks are.

560
00:33:44,600 --> 00:33:47,840
Speaker 1: Bet do you, Alexis Treesha crimeonline dot Com investigative reporter,

561
00:33:48,680 --> 00:33:51,720
Speaker 1: You have heard Dominic Romano. Paul's like, well, everyone on

562
00:33:52,080 --> 00:33:55,160
Speaker 1: the panel weighing in, but apparently there were a lot

563
00:33:55,480 --> 00:33:59,400
Speaker 1: of problems and a lot of disgruntled crew members. I

564
00:33:59,560 --> 00:34:01,840
Speaker 1: understand that one of the motels they had set them

565
00:34:01,960 --> 00:34:06,080
Speaker 1: up to stay overnight was at a place for the homeless,

566
00:34:06,760 --> 00:34:11,520
Speaker 1: and there were drug addicts there. They were afraid to

567
00:34:11,640 --> 00:34:12,200
Speaker 1: stay there.

568
00:34:13,040 --> 00:34:15,240
Speaker 3: What was going on on the set, Well, it seems

569
00:34:15,320 --> 00:34:16,920
Speaker 3: like what they were trying to do was make this

570
00:34:17,160 --> 00:34:21,640
Speaker 3: film as cheaply as possible. Understandable, but they were putting

571
00:34:21,640 --> 00:34:24,360
Speaker 3: people's lives at risk. It was fifty hotels were fifty

572
00:34:24,520 --> 00:34:27,919
Speaker 3: miles away, so after working fourteen hour days, the crew

573
00:34:28,080 --> 00:34:30,400
Speaker 3: was having to drive over an hour to get to

574
00:34:30,440 --> 00:34:32,600
Speaker 3: their hotel. Then they would have to be back within

575
00:34:32,719 --> 00:34:35,000
Speaker 3: like six hours, so they would get almost no sleep

576
00:34:35,040 --> 00:34:37,360
Speaker 3: at all. They were also saying that things were just

577
00:34:37,719 --> 00:34:41,439
Speaker 3: not safe. There had been an incident a few days

578
00:34:41,480 --> 00:34:45,200
Speaker 3: earlier that one of the prop guns again pro real gun,

579
00:34:45,640 --> 00:34:49,120
Speaker 3: had been accidentally fired, and so the crew had been

580
00:34:49,239 --> 00:34:52,200
Speaker 3: complaining to the producer saying this is not a safe

581
00:34:52,560 --> 00:34:56,680
Speaker 3: working environment, and they walked off the set. And so

582
00:34:57,080 --> 00:35:02,560
Speaker 3: Hollywood is very much a union business, but the producers

583
00:35:02,680 --> 00:35:06,680
Speaker 3: hired non union people to replace them. These non union people, though,

584
00:35:06,760 --> 00:35:09,359
Speaker 3: are not the people. That's not the armor, and it's

585
00:35:09,440 --> 00:35:12,040
Speaker 3: not the assistant director and everybody's been talking there at

586
00:35:12,120 --> 00:35:16,560
Speaker 3: the line of protocol. You have so many steps in

587
00:35:16,640 --> 00:35:19,319
Speaker 3: the line of defense, so that when this gun got

588
00:35:19,400 --> 00:35:23,680
Speaker 3: to Alex Baldwin, at least two other people were responsible

589
00:35:23,760 --> 00:35:25,840
Speaker 3: for saying that it wasn't loaded.

590
00:35:26,000 --> 00:35:30,320
Speaker 1: I mean, didn't somebody even scream out cold gun. I

591
00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:32,880
Speaker 1: mean they have to yell it out, you know what

592
00:35:33,320 --> 00:35:35,719
Speaker 1: you were just saying. I know so many times for

593
00:35:35,880 --> 00:35:39,640
Speaker 1: different shoots. I don't know who he is that carries

594
00:35:39,680 --> 00:35:42,840
Speaker 1: that comes over and they have to do it a

595
00:35:42,960 --> 00:35:46,160
Speaker 1: certain way. They have to say a certain thing, and

596
00:35:46,280 --> 00:35:49,279
Speaker 1: they say it really loudly. I don't know why, but

597
00:35:49,360 --> 00:35:51,719
Speaker 1: I'm sure there's a reason for it, just like they

598
00:35:51,760 --> 00:35:55,920
Speaker 1: would yell out cold gun and everybody would hear it.

599
00:35:56,120 --> 00:35:58,719
Speaker 1: But I guess they yelled it out without checking alexis

600
00:35:59,120 --> 00:36:00,000
Speaker 1: And there are records.

601
00:36:00,400 --> 00:36:02,960
Speaker 3: Yes, So there were three guns that were set up

602
00:36:03,440 --> 00:36:06,399
Speaker 3: and they were put on a table outside the church set.

603
00:36:06,480 --> 00:36:09,200
Speaker 3: And it's because of COVID nineteen protocols, so not a

604
00:36:09,239 --> 00:36:12,560
Speaker 3: lot of people are in the if it's an inclosed set,

605
00:36:12,680 --> 00:36:15,960
Speaker 3: they're not there three guns. So the assistant director picked

606
00:36:16,000 --> 00:36:19,080
Speaker 3: it up. Dave Halls, as the other guy said, you know,

607
00:36:19,200 --> 00:36:22,160
Speaker 3: has a history of a lot of accidents on sets

608
00:36:22,600 --> 00:36:24,640
Speaker 3: and handed it to Bodlin and he is the one

609
00:36:24,719 --> 00:36:28,399
Speaker 3: that yelled out cold gun. There's no nobody has said

610
00:36:28,520 --> 00:36:31,480
Speaker 3: there's so many people have spoken to the police on

611
00:36:31,600 --> 00:36:34,279
Speaker 3: the set, so many of the other crew members, and

612
00:36:34,400 --> 00:36:38,400
Speaker 3: they said they didn't know whether it actually was empty

613
00:36:38,600 --> 00:36:41,279
Speaker 3: or not. And these guns were used at lunch. This

614
00:36:41,400 --> 00:36:43,520
Speaker 3: is a post lunch break, so they broke for lunch

615
00:36:43,520 --> 00:36:47,280
Speaker 3: at twelve thirty. They come back after lunch. During that lunchtime,

616
00:36:47,360 --> 00:36:50,160
Speaker 3: there are reports that those crew members were using this

617
00:36:50,520 --> 00:36:53,600
Speaker 3: gun and other guns to shoot beer bottles out in

618
00:36:53,760 --> 00:36:57,160
Speaker 3: the desert area and using it as target practice, so

619
00:36:57,280 --> 00:36:59,600
Speaker 3: there could have been alive and then said there was

620
00:36:59,719 --> 00:37:03,080
Speaker 3: lots to live ammunition. Nobody was told they couldn't bring

621
00:37:03,200 --> 00:37:04,480
Speaker 3: live ammunition on that.

622
00:37:04,719 --> 00:37:07,719
Speaker 1: That's another thing that you live around on set.

623
00:37:08,239 --> 00:37:12,560
Speaker 3: That's a big problem here, and I'd like to jump

624
00:37:12,600 --> 00:37:12,839
Speaker 3: in there.

625
00:37:13,400 --> 00:37:17,520
Speaker 7: It's it's it's simply a breakdown of the security of

626
00:37:17,560 --> 00:37:19,960
Speaker 7: the scene. The only people there that our arms should

627
00:37:19,960 --> 00:37:23,440
Speaker 7: be security personnel. And you know, in my years, my

628
00:37:23,600 --> 00:37:27,960
Speaker 7: decade of fighting to keep workplaces safe and to stop

629
00:37:28,120 --> 00:37:32,080
Speaker 7: stalking offenders from killing victims, I can tell you one

630
00:37:32,160 --> 00:37:35,640
Speaker 7: thing and that is nobody thinks the unthinkable is going

631
00:37:35,719 --> 00:37:39,120
Speaker 7: to happen. It's a matter of just human thinking. They

632
00:37:39,160 --> 00:37:41,279
Speaker 7: think that, well, that happened to somebody else, that didn't

633
00:37:41,320 --> 00:37:44,600
Speaker 7: happen to me. And because this is somewhat of a

634
00:37:44,719 --> 00:37:48,000
Speaker 7: rare occurrence on a set, people got laxed, They got

635
00:37:48,080 --> 00:37:52,960
Speaker 7: lackadays hole about fundamental when it comes to shooting a

636
00:37:53,040 --> 00:37:56,200
Speaker 7: scene such as this. And just like at any workplace,

637
00:37:56,600 --> 00:37:58,480
Speaker 7: this is a workplace out in the middle of the desert,

638
00:37:58,800 --> 00:38:02,480
Speaker 7: just like it would be an office building, those protocols

639
00:38:02,520 --> 00:38:06,040
Speaker 7: broke down in people at work attempting to do the

640
00:38:06,200 --> 00:38:10,000
Speaker 7: right thing for the right reasons, had a catastrophic, devastating

641
00:38:10,080 --> 00:38:14,120
Speaker 7: thing happen, because we as human beings think well, if

642
00:38:14,160 --> 00:38:16,560
Speaker 7: it hasn't happened, it won't happen. And that's just not

643
00:38:16,680 --> 00:38:18,840
Speaker 7: the reality of life when it comes to dangerous events.

644
00:38:19,239 --> 00:38:24,239
Speaker 1: You know, Alec Baldwin is a great, great actor. A

645
00:38:24,280 --> 00:38:27,040
Speaker 1: lot of people don't like him because he rubs him

646
00:38:27,040 --> 00:38:30,640
Speaker 1: the wrong way with his jokes, with his actions, with

647
00:38:31,800 --> 00:38:39,480
Speaker 1: just a history of comments and behavior that irritates some people.

648
00:38:40,120 --> 00:38:42,560
Speaker 1: But I can tell you this, when I saw the

649
00:38:42,600 --> 00:38:48,319
Speaker 1: photos of him literally doubled over in grief. I don't

650
00:38:48,320 --> 00:38:51,879
Speaker 1: think that was acting. I think that was real. As

651
00:38:52,320 --> 00:39:01,560
Speaker 1: Alec Baldwin's reality series plods on what about and more important,

652
00:39:02,280 --> 00:39:07,080
Speaker 1: what about the little boy she left behind, Nancy Grace

653
00:39:07,160 --> 00:39:09,279
Speaker 1: signing off Goodbye friend,