Speaker 1: A shopping event turns into a train wreck in Jersey.
Speaker 1: When Teresa invites the ladies to a shopping event, Margaret
Speaker 1: and Danielle's feud reached new heights. This is Real Housewives
Speaker 1: of New Jersey Season ten, episode eight, Hair Today, Gone Tomorrow.
Speaker 1: Elisa Donovan joins me to recap this episode. Let's get
Speaker 1: into it. Nice to see you again, you.
Speaker 2: Too, Well, I'm so happy to be here. You've had
Speaker 2: like a busy few weeks.
Speaker 3: It's been very good.
Speaker 1: Yes, it's been very uh chaotic, And I've been more
Speaker 1: forward facing, like going out to more things and doing
Speaker 1: more things and being like pretending I'm like a person
Speaker 1: who puts on clothes and makeup.
Speaker 3: So it's sort of fun.
Speaker 1: It's like playing dress up Month a little bit, you know,
Speaker 1: like going to that dinner.
Speaker 3: It's like I act like.
Speaker 1: I'm someone who gets dressed up in floral dresses and
Speaker 1: does that.
Speaker 3: So where are you now up in San Francisco?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 1: Okay, great, So you had never seen the Housewives?
Speaker 2: I know so particular episode, Oh my goodness.
Speaker 1: Well, this particular episode is maybe sadly indicative of many
Speaker 1: episodes throughout the franchise. And sometimes I talk to different
Speaker 1: women from Bravo who are all going through something and
Speaker 1: they're having a difficult time. One woman is being evicted,
Speaker 1: another woman has medical and emotional issues, and so they
Speaker 1: are going through a hard time, and they will talk
Speaker 1: a lot about press and things going on. And I say,
Speaker 1: what my publicist says to me, this is one little
Speaker 1: small world. Like if everyone's if some people are talking
Speaker 1: about Bravo Con, it's eight thousand people, like, that's a
Speaker 1: very small world. But the people in that world, not
Speaker 1: unlike Bachelor Nation or ninety Day Fiance Nation or Love
Speaker 1: Island Nation or any of these shows, they think that
Speaker 1: that's what's going on.
Speaker 3: Everywhere and that everybody knows.
Speaker 1: And you and I were together at that dinner in
Speaker 1: La and remember Larsa was talking about the woman in
Speaker 1: there just dispute, and I said, I kind of interjected
Speaker 1: to be like, Jenny, Gareth and you know, Elisa don't
Speaker 1: know what's going on.
Speaker 2: Jenny and I were like, wait, what what?
Speaker 3: What? Right?
Speaker 1: And I think that people in the Bravo sphere think
Speaker 1: that everybody else.
Speaker 2: I know, that's sort of normal for whatever you're doing
Speaker 2: in particularly maybe in any field, but certainly in entertainment.
Speaker 2: Because it's so everybody is so interested in every part
Speaker 2: of what you're doing, so it feels like it's all encompassing.
Speaker 2: So I get it that they would certainly think that
Speaker 2: everybody knows, but I honestly have escaped it. I think
Speaker 2: because I always felt like these shows are hitting women
Speaker 2: against each other and I never wanted to watch that.
Speaker 2: That's not what my female friendships are, like, it's not
Speaker 2: what my life is about. And so I always felt
Speaker 2: like I felt frustrated that that's how women get to
Speaker 2: be on TV, you know, and that's how women get
Speaker 2: to have attention. And so when so I really didn't know,
Speaker 2: and then I knew of you because I went, oh,
Speaker 2: this this woman has she's an entrepreneur, she has all
Speaker 2: these businesses and she and people seem to have like
Speaker 2: strong feelings about her, you know, one way or the other.
Speaker 2: And then but I knew about you because you you know,
Speaker 2: I would see it. But I honestly, at first I
Speaker 2: didn't know that that's where you started your sort of
Speaker 2: public career. I really don't.
Speaker 3: That's a dream.
Speaker 1: That's the best thing I ever heard of. It's like
Speaker 1: people that don't know Demi Moore came from General Hospital.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yes, so I felt like, oh, this is amazing.
Speaker 2: She's super smart, she's very funny, very savvy, like I'm
Speaker 2: on board with all of this, and then you know,
Speaker 2: I so. I It's made me have an appreciation for
Speaker 2: the people that are able to turn it into something
Speaker 2: that is really powerful and meaningful. You know, And I
Speaker 2: don't know that that's the Uh. It certainly doesn't seem
Speaker 2: like that's the norm. Am I You are the exception or.
Speaker 1: I'm the exception, that's the rule. Which is why it's
Speaker 1: challenging that I'm challenging this system reality television overall because
Speaker 1: I'm the one that got out, so I'm while I'm
Speaker 1: the only one who could actually challenge the system because
Speaker 1: I'm not disgruntled. I did well. It's challenging for me
Speaker 1: to challenge the system because I'm the one example of
Speaker 1: why someone would do it. The game starts to move
Speaker 1: fast where you don't even know what train you're on.
Speaker 1: And to your point about you not watching it because
Speaker 1: of pitting women against each other, I think many of
Speaker 1: the women who watch now started watching when I started
Speaker 1: starring on it, so they've been digesting It's like taking
Speaker 1: small doses of medicine that you get a bigger tolerance
Speaker 1: for it. They've been digesting this content for so many
Speaker 1: years until now, so they don't know. So this is
Speaker 1: an interesting episode for you to watch. So this episode
Speaker 1: is Real Housewives of New Jersey. Hair Today, gone tomorrow.
Speaker 3: Okay, so.
Speaker 1: This there's a we're going to get into this. This
Speaker 1: is Real Housewives of New Jersey and this is twenty twenty,
Speaker 1: so this is funny. A lot can change three three
Speaker 1: years ago and Teresa's father was still alive for those
Speaker 1: of you that you know need to be caught up,
Speaker 1: and Teresa's husband, Joe gu Dice or gud j was
Speaker 1: dealing with this situation with the law where he hadn't
Speaker 1: yet gone to jail and he wanted to leave the
Speaker 1: country but then he'd never be able to come back
Speaker 1: if he didn't go through the system.
Speaker 2: So there wasn't in jail in this episode. Because I
Speaker 2: was like, as I said, I didn't know, and I
Speaker 2: felt like, well, I've been thrown to the wolves. There's
Speaker 2: a lot going on right now and this show that I.
Speaker 1: Don't know if he had gone to yet actually because
Speaker 1: it was three years ago, so he must have gone
Speaker 1: or was going but whatever the situation was.
Speaker 2: He was like calling his daughter from one of those
Speaker 2: where it says, this is a collect call from Oh.
Speaker 1: So he was in jail and he had to go
Speaker 1: through this or he wouldn't be able to come back
Speaker 1: to the country again to see his daughters. And I
Speaker 1: think he lives in Italy now anyway, but that would
Speaker 1: be very trapping to think that, like you could never
Speaker 1: come back to the United States. So if he didn't
Speaker 1: go through the whole process. Okay, So the first scene
Speaker 1: is Melissa, her husband Joe. That's a different Joe. That's
Speaker 1: Joe Gorga and Melissa Gorga and their two kids go
Speaker 1: to the ice cream shop. So Melissa is Teresa's sister
Speaker 1: in law. Joe, the guy in the ice cream store
Speaker 1: is is Teresa's brother and they're estranged and they go
Speaker 1: back and forth.
Speaker 3: Right now, they're very strange.
Speaker 1: So Teresa was on the show first and then later
Speaker 1: to her surprise, Melissa came on, which was also jarring,
Speaker 1: and she's married to Joe. I like Melissa. I think
Speaker 1: she rides the line and plays the game.
Speaker 3: Well.
Speaker 1: One time, someone from this machine said that Melissa was
Speaker 1: channeling me at one of her reunions like she's channeling me,
Speaker 1: But I didn't see that.
Speaker 3: And I like her.
Speaker 1: I think she keeps her wits about her as a character.
Speaker 1: I think she plays the game. And this was a
Speaker 1: scene that is very much a good example of producers saying, Okay,
Speaker 1: we need to get you to have the conversation about
Speaker 1: having another kid, so get your family together. And we
Speaker 1: cleared this ice cream store. And I say that because
Speaker 1: when people are asking if it's real, it's not only
Speaker 1: the trashy, crazy scenes that aren't, but the simple scenes
Speaker 1: can be a little awkward when you sit down, you
Speaker 1: get your ice cream. So we were thinking, what would
Speaker 1: you think if we had another kid? Right, So that's
Speaker 1: that scene and that conversation.
Speaker 2: It did so she did strike me as the most
Speaker 2: I mean, authentic is a weird word to use in
Speaker 2: this scenario, but she felt like what she how she
Speaker 2: was behaving is not far from how she is in life.
Speaker 2: I would guess, and I don't know if I would
Speaker 2: grin or not, but she seemed very kind of yeah,
Speaker 2: as you said, like I know what the task at
Speaker 2: hand is here, and I don't need to inflame it
Speaker 2: or I don't need to. I don't know, there was
Speaker 2: something that I felt the most, like, Okay, I can
Speaker 2: identify with this person, which I probably, you know, don't
Speaker 2: really have that much in common with. But I felt
Speaker 2: like I could identify with her, and it felt like
Speaker 2: her relationship with her kids was, you know, very genuine
Speaker 2: and funny and just also the dynamic of she and
Speaker 2: her husband and the husband being like, wait, what are
Speaker 2: you doing? Like everything you're saying is not what we
Speaker 2: agreed to, and I feel like that's a very common,
Speaker 2: you know, marital relationship, Like I certainly right with my husband.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I liked albeit produced which I liked the conversation.
Speaker 3: I like him.
Speaker 1: I've always had a soft spot for him. He's a
Speaker 1: ham and loves the fame and TV. But their team
Speaker 1: in it, which I like, they've managed to maintain a
Speaker 1: relationship through this experience. And I like her too. And
Speaker 1: I liked the kids. I liked I liked the scene.
Speaker 1: And then, you know, everybody plays their own role. She's
Speaker 1: sort of like the Kyle Richards of this show. I think,
Speaker 1: with the family and doesn't get that dirty plays the
Speaker 1: game well. I think Kyle is very much the that
Speaker 1: of Beverly Hills. Kyle Richards So then we get into Danielle, who,
Speaker 1: just so you know, she has two daughters, two really
Speaker 1: lovely daughters. Danielle has come on and off the ship,
Speaker 1: and she was the subject of the prostitution horror table.
Speaker 2: Flip's Okay, wait a second, so she is not the
Speaker 2: she's the blonde one.
Speaker 1: Right, Danielle is with the guy on the couch that
Speaker 1: she's living with. Oh, but not in a relationship with the
Speaker 1: other one. Yes, she's the other one, right. And so
Speaker 1: this guy, Marty, he seems nice, he seems oddly very
Speaker 1: similar to the blonde Margaret's husband. I guess they're friends,
Speaker 1: and that's where this is converging. And I think there's
Speaker 1: a rub here because Danielle may have said that he
Speaker 1: physically abused her and her daughter, and now they're together,
Speaker 1: and we never really get a response from Danielle on
Speaker 1: that later, like that's a big topic to be hanging
Speaker 1: to not know, yes, what's going on.
Speaker 2: I was very much by that, because they kept referencing
Speaker 2: that that she had said these terrible, made terrible accusations
Speaker 2: against him, but yet they were still living together, which
Speaker 2: I feel like, who know you, No one does that
Speaker 2: unless maybe are that in that abusive of a situation
Speaker 2: that you literally don't know how to get out.
Speaker 3: But then.
Speaker 2: Why would the producers allow something like that to happen.
Speaker 2: So I was a little bit confused by that.
Speaker 1: Well, that's I didn't even think of that. That's a
Speaker 1: good question why the producers would include someone who had
Speaker 1: allegedly abused someone or that discussion. That's a pretty dirty
Speaker 1: topic that needs to be resolved. That shouldn't be here.
Speaker 1: Also that maybe in some cases women have financial issues
Speaker 1: and want to be part of the show, and that's
Speaker 1: a good storyline because he has a connection to the
Speaker 1: other woman. I mean, there's a lot of stuff that
Speaker 1: is very desperate that comes into this show. Some of
Speaker 1: these women, this show and this experience and their own
Speaker 1: actions have chewed them up and spit them out, and
Speaker 1: this is the only place that can take them.
Speaker 3: So there's like they.
Speaker 1: Don't mind being the character that, you know, by any
Speaker 1: means necessary. So Danielle was the subject of the prostitution
Speaker 1: whoor thing. It was a exhibit at Bravo cont to
Speaker 1: this day, which I find shocking that like someone could
Speaker 1: say call you a prostitution horr in a scene, but
Speaker 1: that Bravo's capitalizing on it and continuing.
Speaker 2: What there's like a booth, Where's she's a prostitution? I
Speaker 2: wait what?
Speaker 3: Okay?
Speaker 1: So years ago on Jersey and again I and frankly
Speaker 1: the viewers have made me see this whole medium differently,
Speaker 1: So I'm trying to keep it current and yeah, just
Speaker 1: be true to what I honestly think now because I'm
Speaker 1: seeing these shows differently, having met a lot of these
Speaker 1: women personally from other cities and seeing them very differently
Speaker 1: and hearing them sound totally sane and like not like
Speaker 1: the show, which is a heightened experience with stress and
Speaker 1: alcohol and crazy hours and storylines. And now I'm seeing
Speaker 1: things differently. So in the beginning of Jersey, I think
Speaker 1: it was their first season, Teresa flipped a table and
Speaker 1: had found out that Danielle had a book out that
Speaker 1: another ex of hers. But there was a book called
Speaker 1: Cop Without a Badge and a guy wrote it about Danielle.
Speaker 3: And the girl.
Speaker 1: Teresa brought it into the scene to say, you're a
Speaker 1: prostitution whore. You were engaged nine times or twelve times
Speaker 1: or something, and they sort of didn't want her to
Speaker 1: be in the friend group, and so Teresa flipped the
Speaker 1: table called her a prostitution whore. So later it was
Speaker 1: a game on Andy's show Watcher Rappens Live. It was
Speaker 1: like a rap song prostitution whore, and now it's still
Speaker 1: a booth at Bravo con So I questioned those types
Speaker 1: of things because of what you're saying to make women
Speaker 1: look bad and trash them. And the woman has daughters
Speaker 1: that were very young at the time.
Speaker 2: Yes, so yeah, so you coming into concerning But at
Speaker 2: the same time I see the other side. You know,
Speaker 2: this gets back to my feeling that the you know,
Speaker 2: the entire system is set up for maybe one woman
Speaker 2: to succeed and women to just have to constantly be
Speaker 2: trying to get the attention, the job, the money, Like
Speaker 2: there just isn't enough, right, and it's created by men.
Speaker 2: They create this whole scenario to present this sort of
Speaker 2: caddy nature, which I do understand someone being able to use,
Speaker 2: or having to even that matter, use these shows to
Speaker 2: support their families, to make money, to try to get
Speaker 2: a career, Like I really get that and I respect that.
Speaker 2: But then there's this point of the exploitation piece where
Speaker 2: the women lose, like it spirals out and they lose
Speaker 2: control over their own entity like they can't, and then
Speaker 2: like how do you un ravel that? And it's that
Speaker 2: weird line of well, we're just being a character for
Speaker 2: this show, but then your daughter's watching going, oh, is
Speaker 2: that what I am supposed to do? Then are those
Speaker 2: my options? You know, it's a very strange, like this
Speaker 2: is the thing with these sorts of reality shows, where
Speaker 2: it does you go, how where's the line? You know?
Speaker 2: And I would think that that's a producer's job is
Speaker 2: to find that line, but not exploit.
Speaker 1: It across it And right, well, that's why I'm saying
Speaker 1: it should be. I believe it should be exploration, not exploitation.
Speaker 1: And there is a line, but the exploitation is so
Speaker 1: easy to do. It's a low hanging fruit. So I say,
Speaker 1: that's exactly where I've come to be. And you, as
Speaker 1: someone who's not been part of it, you're seeing it differently.
Speaker 1: So yeah, each person plays a part. The kids don't
Speaker 1: get paid, and you can sometimes see in scenes the
Speaker 1: kids resenting their parents and kids don't getting in little
Speaker 1: jabs the kids don't The kids don't get the kids
Speaker 1: don't get paid, and some of them to this day
Speaker 1: still have like trauma from things that have been said
Speaker 1: about them as kids years ago?
Speaker 2: How is that? So? This is this is like the
Speaker 2: unionizing thing also right, or you should.
Speaker 1: This is what This is what I'm talking about and
Speaker 1: why I'm right and why some people want to get
Speaker 1: in the weeds and die hard fans don't want me
Speaker 1: to ruin and take away their junk food. But this
Speaker 1: is why I'm I'm right. Like parents get to say
Speaker 1: because they want the fame, or they're desperate, or they
Speaker 1: used to be married to a rich man, or they
Speaker 1: used to have a career. They're in their forties fifties,
Speaker 1: this is going to give them some opportunity they would
Speaker 1: have never had. They're dragging their kids in because the
Speaker 1: producers will not cast them unless the whole family is
Speaker 1: part of it. But the whole family hasn't really signed
Speaker 1: contracts about this, except the parents are signing on the kids.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I mean that is so different from scripted television, Like
Speaker 2: you can't eat it if I want to put I
Speaker 2: have a film and development that I wrote that I'm directing,
Speaker 2: and there's a one scene I want my daughter to
Speaker 2: be in. It's literally like she's an extra but walking
Speaker 2: down this hallway and it's a pivotal thing. But she
Speaker 2: doesn't have to say anything. My producer is like, well,
Speaker 2: that's only we're going to shoot it in the summer
Speaker 2: because we have to pay her. You can't take her
Speaker 2: out of school. If you take her out of school,
Speaker 2: you have to get a teacher on set. That costs
Speaker 2: more money. This is a small film. It just goes on, no, no, no,
Speaker 2: and no on for her to be in one scene
Speaker 2: walking down a hallway and not saying anything.
Speaker 1: Not only that, but you could say, you could say,
Speaker 1: as the mother, my daughter has an eating disorder and
Speaker 1: I'm worried about her and for the rest of her life.
Speaker 1: The audience always remembers that your daughter has an eating
Speaker 1: disorder and she's going to be twenty two and feeling embarrassed,
Speaker 1: or that your daughter poofed her pants when she was
Speaker 1: a baby, or your daughter went to fat camp, and
Speaker 1: it lives on im And I'm right. So that is
Speaker 1: what the thing is. And it's not only about Bravo.
Speaker 1: It's about reality TV because it's a group of desperate people.
Speaker 1: So desperate people do desperate things and their kids are victims.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: So, and I never have my daughter on reality TV
Speaker 1: except for a tiny baby, but she you know, she
Speaker 1: couldn't say anything and do anything, and I made that choice.
Speaker 1: So okay, So Margaret seems like she has a real
Speaker 1: bullseye on Danielle. And to your point of saying, one
Speaker 1: person plays a certain role, or you said something recently
Speaker 1: about like women are trying to get to that prime
Speaker 1: spot of being in good light. You're always someone's always
Speaker 1: winning and someone's always losing. So you either have a
Speaker 1: target on your back or you're targeting someone else. That's
Speaker 1: it's game of Thrones or hunger games. So Margaret's got
Speaker 1: a target on Danielle's back. And this is kind of
Speaker 1: just what this episode is about. Teresa befriends Danielle. Often
Speaker 1: on these shows, you have to if you're in a
Speaker 1: hot seat yourself, you got to grab onto somebody. It
Speaker 1: may not be somebody in your normal life you'd be
Speaker 1: friends with, right.
Speaker 2: I was curious about that because that scene where they're
Speaker 2: on the couch and they're when they first she goes
Speaker 2: over to Margaret's house, I was like, wait a second,
Speaker 2: are they these people friends or are they not? I
Speaker 2: couldn't tell if it was uh, if this was a
Speaker 2: new thing, or I was I couldn't tell what was
Speaker 2: going on.
Speaker 1: It's alliances. In this experience, you have to a line
Speaker 1: because so many people will talk badly about you that
Speaker 1: the audience will hear the majority and just go with
Speaker 1: that direction. And so you need allies. And so I'm sure,
Speaker 1: and it becomes real where you think someone's your friend
Speaker 1: because they're your current ally, and you like start to
Speaker 1: tell the people you're in a relationship, but no, I
Speaker 1: really think they're amazing now and I want to bring
Speaker 1: them on vacation or for me, it was like I
Speaker 1: want to have Romantic Romona come out on New Year's even,
Speaker 1: like you really believe everything because it's like this manufactured
Speaker 1: world where you have to you know, you're trapped in
Speaker 1: a space shuttle with a bunch of people you don't
Speaker 1: know these are your best friends. Now you got to survive,
Speaker 1: so you know it's it's survivor. So Teresa has four girls,
Speaker 1: and Teresa is an original housewife, and I like her kids.
Speaker 1: Her kids have been through the whole machine like almost
Speaker 1: like reality almost like housewife Kardashians, like they've been kind
Speaker 1: of almost born into this. Their dad is in jail,
Speaker 1: their mom went to jail, they're going to try the
Speaker 1: prom dresses, like they really have just signed on for
Speaker 1: a lifetime of Housewives Spain the kids too. In this
Speaker 1: particular scenario, Teresa's entire house has been raised on reality television.
Speaker 2: She also was in jail, like trying to get got up.
Speaker 3: Teresa was in jail too because her husband.
Speaker 1: Got in trouble for tax evasion, but she was on
Speaker 1: many of the documents, so she had to do a year.
Speaker 1: She did a year, left, the kids came home, then he.
Speaker 3: Did a year. Ah okay, okay, Like that's really hard.
Speaker 2: Oh for sure. I mean, I mean those kids are
Speaker 2: nothing of not resilient.
Speaker 3: I hope they I.
Speaker 2: Mean, it's just it's just it was that seems really
Speaker 2: interesting to me in terms of the regular things that
Speaker 2: people go through. Oh, your child's still going to the prom,
Speaker 2: she still like choose a dress that works for her.
Speaker 2: And then at the same time, we have to talk
Speaker 2: to dad on the phone from prison, who then is
Speaker 2: trying to like it sounded like pit his daughter against
Speaker 2: his wife. And you know, I'm sure marriages are complicated,
Speaker 2: so and I can only imagine what that would feel
Speaker 2: like being so just having that whole situation. But it
Speaker 2: seemed like she I loved that. She just sort of
Speaker 2: took her. She was like, this is a problem with
Speaker 2: the two of you, and leave me out of it,
Speaker 2: Like I don't eat the daughter. That was yes, Like
Speaker 2: I don't need to know the details. Like now this
Speaker 2: is too much. You too have your issue, but I
Speaker 2: am your child. Still, this is not about.
Speaker 1: I agree, and I Also. The one thing I've always
Speaker 1: liked about Joe Gudce as it pertains to reality television,
Speaker 1: the maybe the only thing. He really doesn't give a fuck,
Speaker 1: and he's really being who he actually is. He's one
Speaker 1: of the few people that are not self produced. He
Speaker 1: will he's he's a he can't stand his wife. You
Speaker 1: can tell they've been in sort of what almost feels
Speaker 1: like an arranged Italian marriage for years. He loves his daughters,
Speaker 1: and he just really doesn't give a shit. He'll say
Speaker 1: on camera what he really feels.
Speaker 3: So I do.
Speaker 1: I mean, I like him so well. Jen Aiden, she's newer.
Speaker 1: She's been in I mean not new or newer to me,
Speaker 1: newer in the franchise. She's the one whose mother doesn't
Speaker 1: accept that her brother is gay.
Speaker 2: Oh yes, yes, okay, So.
Speaker 1: I thought that was an important topic. I thought it
Speaker 1: was great that she pushed that forward into the show
Speaker 1: and kind made a choice to make her mother look
Speaker 1: a bit uncomfortable for the sake of this audience, for
Speaker 1: the sake of moving this conversation board and showing a
Speaker 1: difference in the generation with her daughter.
Speaker 2: Yes, and I ironically that was the least. That was more,
Speaker 2: as you say, explore exploration as opposed to exploitations, because
Speaker 2: that didn't turn into some explosive thing where the mom
Speaker 2: is slurring. You could just see her face as a mother,
Speaker 2: all of the feelings that she's having about it, and
Speaker 2: then perhaps realizing these are not okay, but it's how
Speaker 2: I feel and couldn't and she just.
Speaker 3: Sort of good points.
Speaker 2: You're right, And I feel like that was really that
Speaker 2: was a great moment. And for the daughter, you know,
Speaker 2: the daughter, the granddaughter to be a part of that
Speaker 2: and sort of the touch point of all the generations.
Speaker 2: I thought it was great.
Speaker 1: You're right, that's an exploration, but still as riveting and
Speaker 1: the same thing for the daughter in the dressing room,
Speaker 1: if I think about it, because that's exploration, that's a dynamic.
Speaker 1: It's parents that are divorced or fighting or cheating or something,
Speaker 1: leave me out of it. And we heard the child's voice,
Speaker 1: and I think those that's a good example because I'm
Speaker 1: people often think I want to take their candy away.
Speaker 1: It's just you want it to be done well and
Speaker 1: done creatively, right, exactly.
Speaker 2: It's totally possible because people are inherently interesting and relationships
Speaker 2: are interesting, and you know the sort of it doesn't
Speaker 2: always have to be heightened to be heightened like it
Speaker 2: just is. Ye.
Speaker 1: So yeah, and now we get this guy, Marty who's
Speaker 1: on the show being accused of abuse. I wonder how
Speaker 1: that legally goes on. And I wonder why men who
Speaker 1: wouldn't be paid would participate in something that could possibly
Speaker 1: paint them in that light. I don't see an upside.
Speaker 1: We're not promoting his bait. He's not paid either. No,
Speaker 1: in many cases in New York, the kids and the
Speaker 1: husbands are never paid. Some of the family members have
Speaker 1: been paid on Jersey because it's more of a family show.
Speaker 1: But I'm positive that guy's not paid because he's just
Speaker 1: a he's not like a permanent fixture on the show.
Speaker 1: So now we get into where the line is crossed.
Speaker 1: So there's another show that was a big scandal called
Speaker 1: that had a scandal called scandalval where Rachel she was
Speaker 1: at the dinner you and I were at. She had
Speaker 1: short hair. I don't think you were sitting here, okay,
Speaker 1: but Bob, yeah, like almost like your hair but a
Speaker 1: little shorter.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: So she was on a show and in my opinion
Speaker 1: and a lot of people's opinions and a therapist's opinion,
Speaker 1: she was emotionally abused at a reunion for cheating, for
Speaker 1: having an affair with someone who was in a relationship,
Speaker 1: and it felt like across the line.
Speaker 3: And there was.
Speaker 1: A sexual tape of her that was distributed, and it's
Speaker 1: really been described as like inappropriate, if not illegal, like
Speaker 1: to distribute video of somebody throughout a cast. I mean,
Speaker 1: you don't think of those things, but like some things
Speaker 1: are illegal, recording people within certain states or right.
Speaker 2: Who released it, who gave it to everyone?
Speaker 1: Her, the guy who recorded it, he recorded a FaceTime.
Speaker 1: So now we're in a situation and these feel like
Speaker 1: the years when the show started to get really toxic.
Speaker 1: I think, although it kind of always has, it's just evolved.
Speaker 1: So Danielle, evidently it appears they're talking about a video
Speaker 1: a sex video of her, and they're flashing to all
Speaker 1: the different cast members and their husbands talking about Danielle's
Speaker 1: porn or a tape. So I don't know how this
Speaker 1: is all legal, and we're going to get into it.
Speaker 1: But Danielle's ex who wrote a book about her, and
Speaker 1: it wouldn't have been successful at all if Brabo hadn't
Speaker 1: brought it into the show and promotes it at Brabo
Speaker 1: Khan and gave this guy a booth. So there's a
Speaker 1: video that was distributed by Hustler that apparently wasn't approved
Speaker 1: by Danielle. So I don't understand the legality. That doesn't
Speaker 1: sound like it makes a lot of sense. But all
Speaker 1: the people on the cast here are talking about her
Speaker 1: vagina and saying that it looked like it had claws
Speaker 1: and teeth. So this is a good example. She's not
Speaker 1: aware that this conversation is going through this show, and
Speaker 1: now they're all at this shoe store talking about comparing
Speaker 1: her vagina to sushi, and like, that's where I that's
Speaker 1: where the line is completely cross.
Speaker 2: One hundred percent. I could not I went, this is
Speaker 2: way beyond my comprehension now, and I felt like this
Speaker 2: is again one of those things where when you could
Speaker 2: get swept up in the situation and producers telling you
Speaker 2: to do things, or your emotions getting involved and day drinking,
Speaker 2: which you know we've all been guilty of, and right
Speaker 2: all it's like the perfect storm. And the thing is
Speaker 2: is that then perhaps many of those things, both of
Speaker 2: them or Danielle would want to take back right or
Speaker 2: not make public, but you can't, and then that becomes
Speaker 2: like the meat of the whole show, and it just
Speaker 2: I felt I felt badly for all of them. I
Speaker 2: just felt like this is spiraling out of control and
Speaker 2: the people that are benefiting from it are not on
Speaker 2: the screen right now. That's how I felt.
Speaker 1: By the way, it's exactly I've been in these scenes
Speaker 1: and it's escalating, and you're kind of aware that you're
Speaker 1: making good television, you're also so angry and frustrated, and
Speaker 1: everything gets accentuated the alcohol, the dehydration, literally your nervous system,
Speaker 1: you're literally activated. It's just a different feeling, and it's
Speaker 1: this weird hybrid purgatory between real and not real. And
Speaker 1: whoever produced that episode should be ashamed of themselves, because
Speaker 1: there's a line between entertainment and exploitation, and this crossed it.
Speaker 1: For a show and for Bravo to distribute people talking
Speaker 1: about someone's vagina having teeth closet and teeth that woman
Speaker 1: has daughters, there has to be a responsibility. There has
Speaker 1: to be a responsible and I stand by what I've said.
Speaker 1: It's completely vile. Now, I may not know Dyanne Danielle.
Speaker 1: I may not like Danielle, I may not approve of
Speaker 1: her choices. Andy Cohen was an executive producer of this show.
Speaker 1: It's something that really was disgusting and cross the line.
Speaker 1: And it's a network that's supposed to be a network
Speaker 1: whose entire audience is women. So that's where you have
Speaker 1: a responsibility. And it was a disgusting situation that you
Speaker 1: could talk about that someone had a video. You could
Speaker 1: talk about you don't agree with someone's relationship, you could
Speaker 1: talk about not thinking so, but to like talk about
Speaker 1: that everybody on a show is comparing your vagina to
Speaker 1: sushi and what it looked like, and that a person
Speaker 1: is that knows that everybody has watched a video of them.
Speaker 1: That's something that would happen on a school yard.
Speaker 2: I was just going to say that that is like
Speaker 2: a teenage eighth grade scenario that it's like the lowest
Speaker 2: common denominator and it's that piling on thing. One person
Speaker 2: starts it's it, and then a couple of people and
Speaker 2: then everybody's involved, and then the next thing you know,
Speaker 2: you're all saying these horrible things. I mean, this is
Speaker 2: literally like kindergarten, or.
Speaker 1: It's also like college though a girl sleeps with Halt
Speaker 1: the football team, and she's bullied about it, and it's
Speaker 1: brought out and like they become wrong because of the
Speaker 1: way that she's ostracized and treated. I so I was again,
Speaker 1: I was in the machine back then and now going
Speaker 1: back and like watching it, I thought this is also gross.
Speaker 1: And this is where the line gets crossed the viewer too,
Speaker 1: where the viewer doesn't feel good, the viewer feels gross
Speaker 1: for even watching.
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, yes, yes, I think it.
Speaker 1: You know, there's love to hate, and there's love to love.
Speaker 1: But when you hate to hate and you feel disgusting,
Speaker 1: like you've just eaten something really that's vile, junk food
Speaker 1: that made you feel worse than when you started, that's
Speaker 1: when it's serious. So that was that conversation, and then
Speaker 1: you're into name calling trout mouth and back and forth
Speaker 1: like which yes it was.
Speaker 2: It was just way, way, way too much for me,
Speaker 2: And I felt like, this is exactly why I never
Speaker 2: watched these shows because I I don't I don't want
Speaker 2: my daughter thinking that's the way women behave with each other.
Speaker 2: I that's not the way my relationships are. And not
Speaker 2: that you have to watch things that completely reflect your
Speaker 2: own life and reality, but from a just from a
Speaker 2: moral standpoint, I felt like, can't we it is this
Speaker 2: really entertainment or what is this? You know? Whereas the
Speaker 2: other pieces of it, as I said, I can understand
Speaker 2: why it's compelling and how it can be funny and interesting,
Speaker 2: but there is a line, and that it was without
Speaker 2: a doubt crossed in that scene in my opinion right
Speaker 2: because there's no there's no goal for any kind of resolution.
Speaker 2: It's literally just to make everyone, to make somebody disgusting.
Speaker 2: And this is what I really have learned since meeting
Speaker 2: all these women. Many people love a character, hate a character.
Speaker 2: The next week it goes upside down, but it's really
Speaker 2: not the character.
Speaker 1: It's not the talent's fault. Like what Margaret's job is
Speaker 1: to dig up dirt on other people? Throw it into
Speaker 1: the mix, make it stick, and start over. It's you know,
Speaker 1: Danielle's job is to go in there and play that
Speaker 1: trashy part because this week it's her turn to get
Speaker 1: beaten up. And Melissa tries to ride the line, like
Speaker 1: I said, of being the sensible one, but she's still
Speaker 1: standing there like she she's trying to do enough. Melissa's
Speaker 1: a character, it's always trying to do what she needs
Speaker 1: to do to get by in the class. So she's like,
Speaker 1: this is unacceptable, but yeah, she's still there. If it
Speaker 1: were really unacceptable, you walk out and leave, like she's
Speaker 1: still sort of there, and Jennifer is laughing at the
Speaker 1: sushi joke. So everybody's like got to play their part
Speaker 1: or they won't be able to survive on this show.
Speaker 1: If you just walk out and leave, because in your
Speaker 1: real you would never tolerate this, you're not going to
Speaker 1: be on the show. So it's not the talent, it's
Speaker 1: not the town's fault. It's Andy Cohen's fault, it's the producers.
Speaker 1: It's Bravo's fault for going for the low hanging fruit
Speaker 1: and taking his past. But that's what sells these days.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean that makes me sad. That's the being,
Speaker 2: you know, because again there is entertainment and then there
Speaker 2: is just exploitation. And what really the the thing that
Speaker 2: really gets me is that these these women who are
Speaker 2: on the shows that you know, I'm sure there's a
Speaker 2: great high that you feel when you're the one who
Speaker 2: is righteous in the situation and you're the one that
Speaker 2: everybody that the fans are loving. That feels great, and
Speaker 2: that's a false sense of anything because then you're just
Speaker 2: going to crash again and then thinking that that's how
Speaker 2: we get that, like that's how we succeed in life.
Speaker 2: It's just it's a little bit. It's disturbing to me.
Speaker 3: It's a great point.
Speaker 1: You're very intuitive because you get back in the car
Speaker 1: after that scene, like the producer then will be like,
Speaker 1: oh my god, that was insane and amazing, and they
Speaker 1: always act as if like they wouldn't have wanted that,
Speaker 1: like wow, that was a little crazy, you know, like
Speaker 1: and then you feel crazy because you feel like you
Speaker 1: just want their approval to tell you that it went
Speaker 1: well and that you're doing a good job. And you
Speaker 1: always want and it's a voracious you never it's a
Speaker 1: bottomless pit. You never really get what they really think,
Speaker 1: and they after scene like that, they might be like, yeah,
Speaker 1: well no, the next scene you'll be able to clean
Speaker 1: it up, so you like then get a do over,
Speaker 1: and then the next scene you're trying to like then
Speaker 1: they'll make you look crazy when you're like, I never
Speaker 1: want to be in a room with Margaret again, like right,
Speaker 1: like and then they're like, well, we're all doing the
Speaker 1: cast ship and the whole cast has to go. That's
Speaker 1: where it is an actual workplace, but you're not. You
Speaker 1: haven't signed a contract and you don't get to complain
Speaker 1: to HR because it isn't a legal workplace. So then
Speaker 1: the producer the next week, they're going to Atlantic City
Speaker 1: or wherever they're going. You don't want to go because
Speaker 1: in your real life would you ever be in a
Speaker 1: room with these people as long as you live. But
Speaker 1: you're contracted to go to Atlantic City, so they're going
Speaker 1: to make you go because they want to force either
Speaker 1: some fake resolution and escalation, and then you don't want
Speaker 1: to go to the reunion like it's a circular reference
Speaker 1: that is not based in any reality, because those two
Speaker 1: people would never speak to each other for the rest
Speaker 1: of their lives. After a scene like that, right, yeah,
Speaker 1: unless there.
Speaker 2: Was some massive reckoning and you know, apology and understanding,
Speaker 2: like yes, it would take moving mountains for those people
Speaker 2: to be spending time together again. Let alone, I got
Speaker 2: a fun trip.
Speaker 1: Right, But if you don't want to do that, you
Speaker 1: could lose your job. Like Lisa vander Pomba had a
Speaker 1: much lighter altercation with Kyle that lives on to this
Speaker 1: day and the other women, and she didn't want to
Speaker 1: film most of the season, so she didn't film the
Speaker 1: rest of a season. And then Bravo put in a
Speaker 1: new law for housewives that any episode that you aren't in,
Speaker 1: you won't get paid for. Meaning if you in your
Speaker 1: real life would never want to shoot with these people
Speaker 1: because you just wouldn't travel with them, then you won't
Speaker 1: get paid. So you have to go on a trip
Speaker 1: with them. You have to go somewhere. So it's the
Speaker 1: upside down. You've been put in this situation where your
Speaker 1: vagina has been compared to sushi and has teeth on it,
Speaker 1: but now you have to go legally to a trip
Speaker 1: with someone who said that to you.
Speaker 2: Right, And I get how people would say, well, you
Speaker 2: signed up for that, and that's what you know you're
Speaker 2: getting paid and you knew when you sign up. I mean,
Speaker 2: that's only partly true. I think that is very misleading.
Speaker 2: I don't think anybody would sign up to be humiliated
Speaker 2: in that extreme of a fashion. I think that you
Speaker 2: sign up and say, okay, I've never I did. I've
Speaker 2: done two reality things, a cooking show and a thing
Speaker 2: called Switch where you switch live a million years ago
Speaker 2: for ABC. I understood in doing those I it's gonna
Speaker 2: be me. But they were not exploitative shows. They were
Speaker 2: not you know, I had to understand that whatever I
Speaker 2: did was going to be put on TV, and I
Speaker 2: can need control over that. But I certainly didn't sign up.
Speaker 2: If I had gotten there and then they were, you know,
Speaker 2: trying to really humiliate me, I'd be like, well, wait
Speaker 2: a second, that's not what the agreement is. But how
Speaker 2: do you put that like that? There's no language to
Speaker 2: specifically say, like what is humiliation? I don't know.
Speaker 1: Maybe actually, as I come up with language for this,
Speaker 1: I think it's a good idea, like yes, calling someone
Speaker 1: a prostitution horror, doing a song, airing it, having a
Speaker 1: game show on Andy's Show as if it's entertainment. And
Speaker 1: having a booth at Bravo that says prostitution horror. That's
Speaker 1: crossing the line like you're saying whoror prostitution horror, like
Speaker 1: where you're attacking someone's character in one of those categories.
Speaker 1: You could be like, you're a manipulative bitch. Okay, we'll
Speaker 1: keep it right, You're yeah, you are a drug addict,
Speaker 1: prostitution whore. Is where the line is, you know what
Speaker 1: I mean? Like, I think there is where things are
Speaker 1: bridging illegal and talking about illegal activity things like that,
Speaker 1: because they should be vetting people and maybe don't want
Speaker 1: to have someone on that has a history with the law,
Speaker 1: but they do want to have that on because that's
Speaker 1: what they know will sell. So there's really no line
Speaker 1: in who they'll put on the show. It's just like
Speaker 1: it's a circular reference. It's very very interesting when you
Speaker 1: say that. It's very interesting when you say that, because
Speaker 1: we're both talking about how people can create in a
Speaker 1: more constructive way.
Speaker 2: Yes and still be you know, still be edgy and
Speaker 2: still be funny and not completely PC you know, but
Speaker 2: you could still do all of those things. But there
Speaker 2: is and you know, it's just a sign I think
Speaker 2: of culturally where we are headed sadly or where we
Speaker 2: are and so because it's just reflecting, reflective of what
Speaker 2: people are now willing to tolerate or need more to
Speaker 2: be entertained or to make someone feel bad like it's
Speaker 2: a pretty kind of scary trajectory, but it certainly right,
Speaker 2: That's what I'm saying. Years ago, there was a scene
Speaker 2: where Kelly ben Simone said to me, this is me,
Speaker 2: this is you, meaning I'm up here, you're down here,
Speaker 2: and people it was one of the most iconic scenes ever.
Speaker 2: But Okay, that's a dynamic that felt like a school,
Speaker 2: that felt like a popular girl saying it to the
Speaker 2: not popular girl. We can relate to that. We can
Speaker 2: relate to Joe's daughter saying leave me out of this.
Speaker 2: We can relate to Jennifer aid right, we can relate
Speaker 2: to someone saying to someone else, I'm up here, you're
Speaker 2: not here. We can't relate to someone as signing teeth
Speaker 2: and a whole group watching a sex video and Ravo
Speaker 2: saying it's okay that everybody watched Danielle's sex hit. How
Speaker 2: could the talent feel protected? And even furthermore, this is
Speaker 2: what really goes on many of These women came in
Speaker 2: a little wounded, a little beaten up, and they were
Speaker 2: these characters and they participated and they did it. But
Speaker 2: then after they go through this and once you've been
Speaker 2: called the prostitution horn, your vagina being discussed in a
Speaker 2: certain way, or drugs, or you cannot get a.
Speaker 3: Job anywhere else.
Speaker 1: So this is the only place you can beg to
Speaker 1: go back and make money, and it becomes desperation for
Speaker 1: these people. And these are the people that the reality
Speaker 1: Reckoning is about, not the Bethany Frankels, not the Kyle
Speaker 1: and the Erica James. It's the people that have been
Speaker 1: chewed up and spit out by the system.
Speaker 2: I really, I really commend you for doing this. I
Speaker 2: truly do. I think it's really brave. And people can
Speaker 2: say whatever they want, but the in terms of oh,
Speaker 2: it's easy to do that from where you're sitting, Yeah,
Speaker 2: but that's why you can do it. That's the point,
Speaker 2: you know, Yeah, And that that is exactly part of
Speaker 2: the point, and it's really hard to it's you know,
Speaker 2: this is the other thing that we lose often is
Speaker 2: the nuance of these conversations, right, You're talking about the
Speaker 2: nuance of things you're not saying these things should not
Speaker 2: exist at all, and exactly you know you're going there
Speaker 2: are levels and there are details to this that can
Speaker 2: be just more constructive. So it is entertainment. That's what
Speaker 2: it's supposed to be, right, I mean, isn't it right?
Speaker 1: Entertainment with an edge. And as we are talking about
Speaker 1: the the strike, it's not first and foremost shouldn't be
Speaker 1: that kids should be paid for being exploited, but it
Speaker 1: would definitely make it feel a little better. It should
Speaker 1: be that the exploitation shouldn't be so that a kid
Speaker 1: the rest of their life is going to be suffering.
Speaker 1: And I think that the I already see a change.
Speaker 1: I've seen a change, and watch what Happens live. They've
Speaker 1: said that there's a change in the alcohol and the
Speaker 1: mental health. There was a watered down version of Bravo
Speaker 1: count Con this year, and that's good because it means
Speaker 1: I've made They may not they won't admit that it's
Speaker 1: because of me, but it means we've made a difference.
Speaker 1: And in having this show, which truthfully, if I knew
Speaker 1: that there was going to be a reckoning, I probably
Speaker 1: wouldn't have launched this show. But even deciding to do it.
Speaker 1: I never wanted to bash anybody, and I wanted to
Speaker 1: use the show as a vehicle to talk to people that.
Speaker 3: Are not on it about issues.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that to me is very compelling and really
Speaker 2: important and doesn't have to be uh you know, that's
Speaker 2: that I look. I am a firm believer in bringing
Speaker 2: people together rather than trying to create division. And I
Speaker 2: think we have enough of that already in this country.
Speaker 2: I will not talk about politics, but it really like
Speaker 2: that's that's the problem. And that might be interesting for
Speaker 2: a narrative story that has a beginning, middle, and end,
Speaker 2: but life is far more complex than that. And when
Speaker 2: we create these these massive you know, where everything is
Speaker 2: about someone being right in someone being wrong, and there's
Speaker 2: no there's no place for actually connecting to people and
Speaker 2: and and have.
Speaker 1: You're saying we're at the most divisive time, Like people
Speaker 1: are closet voting because if they say they're voting for
Speaker 1: X person, the other person doesn't say, let's discuss why.
Speaker 1: The other person says you're a fucking moron and you're
Speaker 1: disgusting and you're a Karen and you're a racist. They
Speaker 1: don't say, let's have a discussion. Yeah, exactly. And this
Speaker 1: show can have debates, disputes about money, about divorce, about
Speaker 1: only topics, but when it crosses the line and when
Speaker 1: it's designed to ruin someone's life, that's what I'm talking about.
Speaker 1: And again, and I say it all the time because
Speaker 1: I don't normally say like, I'm right, that's a really,
Speaker 1: but I am. On this topic, I'm right, I'm right.
Speaker 1: It's just right and wrong. Yeah. So wow, Well this
Speaker 1: was an interesting conversation. Wow, you're very insightful. I didn't
Speaker 1: know that it was going to kind of go in
Speaker 1: this direction.
Speaker 3: I appreciate the conversation.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was entertaining. We had a good time.
Speaker 3: Awesome.
Speaker 1: All right. Well I'd love to have you back more.
Speaker 1: So sorry if i'll make you watch these episodes.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I need a little break before watching more.
Speaker 1: But yeah, it'll be six months, all right. I can't
Speaker 1: wait to get together with you. I loved sitting at
Speaker 1: dinner with you. I thought you were amazing.
Speaker 2: I loved it. I was so happy to be invited.
Speaker 2: It was a great, pleasant surprise all around. I loved it.
Speaker 2: I loved it. So thanks.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was a nice group, amazing, awesome.
Speaker 3: Well, thank you.
Speaker 1: For being here, for watching, and for talking about it. I
Speaker 1: appreciate it so much.