1 00:00:01,720 --> 00:00:05,560 Speaker 1: Colz Media. 2 00:00:06,480 --> 00:00:08,959 Speaker 2: Hey everyone, Robert here. The episode you're about to listen 3 00:00:08,960 --> 00:00:13,280 Speaker 2: to is a keynote speech I gave at a symposium 4 00:00:13,360 --> 00:00:17,960 Speaker 2: on combating Authoritarianism and Preserving Democracy for the Japanese American 5 00:00:18,040 --> 00:00:21,880 Speaker 2: National Museum in Los Angeles, California. So you'll get to 6 00:00:21,920 --> 00:00:25,640 Speaker 2: hear the speech that I gave them about what's necessary 7 00:00:25,800 --> 00:00:28,560 Speaker 2: in order to deal with this new authoritarian way of 8 00:00:28,600 --> 00:00:30,960 Speaker 2: overtaking the country. And then there's a Q and A 9 00:00:31,040 --> 00:00:34,120 Speaker 2: with me afterwards where I sit down with Anne Burrows, 10 00:00:34,120 --> 00:00:37,800 Speaker 2: who's the President and CEO of the Japanese American National Museum. 11 00:00:38,240 --> 00:00:42,120 Speaker 2: She's also an internationally recognized leader in human rights and 12 00:00:42,200 --> 00:00:45,040 Speaker 2: social justice. She's a chair on the board of directors 13 00:00:45,040 --> 00:00:48,360 Speaker 2: for Amnesty International. She was jailed as a political prisoner 14 00:00:48,360 --> 00:00:51,159 Speaker 2: for fighting apartheid in her native South Africa. She's a 15 00:00:51,159 --> 00:00:53,960 Speaker 2: pretty cool person. So that is the episode you're about 16 00:00:54,000 --> 00:00:54,400 Speaker 2: to listen to. 17 00:01:00,240 --> 00:01:06,199 Speaker 3: Keynote is going to ask us some difficult truths. Authoritarianism, 18 00:01:06,800 --> 00:01:11,560 Speaker 3: as has so often been said, rarely announces itself all 19 00:01:11,600 --> 00:01:17,160 Speaker 3: at once. It takes root quietly in policies that silence dissent, 20 00:01:17,640 --> 00:01:22,280 Speaker 3: in narratives that divide, and in systems that normalize repression 21 00:01:22,920 --> 00:01:26,520 Speaker 3: until it feels ordinary, and when we get to that 22 00:01:26,680 --> 00:01:34,759 Speaker 3: ordinary point, it's complicity. So I know that our next 23 00:01:35,560 --> 00:01:40,880 Speaker 3: keynote is going to challenge us. We can trust that 24 00:01:40,920 --> 00:01:46,160 Speaker 3: he will be provocative. We can trust that he will 25 00:01:46,200 --> 00:01:53,080 Speaker 3: say some very strong things and it will be fantastic. So, 26 00:01:53,440 --> 00:01:59,360 Speaker 3: without blabbering anymore, I am going to welcome Robert Evans, 27 00:01:59,440 --> 00:02:03,560 Speaker 3: who is a journalist and author and the host of 28 00:02:03,640 --> 00:02:08,640 Speaker 3: the enormously popular and influential podcasts Behind the Bastards and 29 00:02:08,720 --> 00:02:12,320 Speaker 3: It Couldn't Happen Here. He's also the author of a 30 00:02:12,320 --> 00:02:16,160 Speaker 3: brief History of Vice and After the Revolution. He has 31 00:02:16,240 --> 00:02:21,480 Speaker 3: that rare ability to connect history, power and lived experience, 32 00:02:21,560 --> 00:02:24,680 Speaker 3: and he will certainly talk to you about his lived 33 00:02:24,720 --> 00:02:27,880 Speaker 3: experience in the trenches of Portland, and he'll dir it 34 00:02:27,960 --> 00:02:31,000 Speaker 3: in a way that's unsettling. As I've said, he's going 35 00:02:31,080 --> 00:02:34,240 Speaker 3: to challenge us, He's going to be provocative. But that's 36 00:02:34,280 --> 00:02:38,480 Speaker 3: why we've asked him to provide this keynote. So Robert, 37 00:02:38,800 --> 00:02:39,840 Speaker 3: please come on up. 38 00:02:40,240 --> 00:02:41,079 Speaker 4: It's your moment. 39 00:02:47,320 --> 00:02:49,239 Speaker 2: Thank you so much for that, and thank you all 40 00:02:49,320 --> 00:02:51,960 Speaker 2: for being here. I am going to try to follow 41 00:02:52,000 --> 00:02:55,040 Speaker 2: that up as best I can. Once the teleprompter's ready here. 42 00:02:58,000 --> 00:03:00,120 Speaker 2: So a couple of days before I sat down to 43 00:03:00,120 --> 00:03:03,079 Speaker 2: write the speech that I'm delivering now, a friend came 44 00:03:03,120 --> 00:03:05,239 Speaker 2: to me and asked if I had advice on which 45 00:03:05,280 --> 00:03:07,519 Speaker 2: kind of gas mask she should purchase for her four 46 00:03:07,600 --> 00:03:12,000 Speaker 2: year old daughter. As was noted earlier, we live in Portland, Oregon, 47 00:03:12,080 --> 00:03:15,040 Speaker 2: and while my friend wasn't planning to attend any protests, 48 00:03:15,080 --> 00:03:18,280 Speaker 2: certainly not with her daughter in tow, she was keeping 49 00:03:18,360 --> 00:03:22,440 Speaker 2: up with developments in Minnesota, where ice officers had just 50 00:03:22,480 --> 00:03:25,280 Speaker 2: shot a man they described as Venezuelan in the leg 51 00:03:25,440 --> 00:03:28,480 Speaker 2: and then tear gased a neighborhood. One resident tried to 52 00:03:28,520 --> 00:03:31,560 Speaker 2: get his family, which included small children and a newborn, 53 00:03:31,600 --> 00:03:34,400 Speaker 2: out of the area, but they were gassed in their car, 54 00:03:34,639 --> 00:03:38,360 Speaker 2: and then, for good measure, ice officers hurled flashbangs into 55 00:03:38,360 --> 00:03:41,760 Speaker 2: the vehicle. His six month old infants stopped breeding, and 56 00:03:41,800 --> 00:03:44,360 Speaker 2: he had to beg repeatedly before officers would let an 57 00:03:44,400 --> 00:03:49,040 Speaker 2: ambulance in to resuscitate his baby. The child was fine now, 58 00:03:49,720 --> 00:03:52,000 Speaker 2: so my friend was right to fear that her little 59 00:03:52,000 --> 00:03:54,440 Speaker 2: girl might get gassed for nothing more than existing in 60 00:03:54,480 --> 00:03:58,920 Speaker 2: the wrong neighborhood. Questions like this aren't theoretical to thousands 61 00:03:58,920 --> 00:04:02,280 Speaker 2: of American parents now, and they aren't theoretical to me. 62 00:04:02,720 --> 00:04:04,760 Speaker 2: I was tear gassed more than one hundred times in 63 00:04:04,800 --> 00:04:06,920 Speaker 2: twenty twenty, and I spent a fair amount of time 64 00:04:07,000 --> 00:04:09,880 Speaker 2: pulling children and other civilians out of cars that had 65 00:04:09,880 --> 00:04:12,760 Speaker 2: the bad luck to exist on the same city block 66 00:04:12,800 --> 00:04:15,000 Speaker 2: as a man with a badge and a grenade launcher. 67 00:04:15,720 --> 00:04:18,360 Speaker 2: And so it bugs me just a little when I 68 00:04:18,400 --> 00:04:21,800 Speaker 2: see Governor Walls tell protesters to stay peaceful and not 69 00:04:21,920 --> 00:04:26,039 Speaker 2: take the bait. In fact, I'm left asking what do 70 00:04:26,160 --> 00:04:29,919 Speaker 2: we think the bait is here? As best as I 71 00:04:30,000 --> 00:04:33,839 Speaker 2: can figure it, armed and armored police officers, blind firing 72 00:04:33,920 --> 00:04:37,800 Speaker 2: chemical weapons that civilians is bait, while any response from 73 00:04:37,839 --> 00:04:41,120 Speaker 2: those civilians beyond packing up and going home is taking 74 00:04:41,240 --> 00:04:44,880 Speaker 2: said bait. Throwing back tear gas containers or anything else 75 00:04:45,279 --> 00:04:48,920 Speaker 2: is somehow an escalation. So is standing against a riot 76 00:04:48,920 --> 00:04:51,360 Speaker 2: line with a gas mask and a homemade shield to 77 00:04:51,400 --> 00:04:55,280 Speaker 2: stop your neighbor from getting deported. Any act of resistance, 78 00:04:55,320 --> 00:04:59,200 Speaker 2: big or small, is all the justification federal agents need 79 00:04:59,240 --> 00:05:02,400 Speaker 2: to deploy more of the violence they were already using. 80 00:05:03,040 --> 00:05:05,600 Speaker 2: It's a neat little rhetorical game that liberals have let 81 00:05:05,680 --> 00:05:10,040 Speaker 2: themselves become trapped inside. Playing that game lets them avoid 82 00:05:10,160 --> 00:05:14,880 Speaker 2: answering one supremely ugly question. If your enemy controls the 83 00:05:14,960 --> 00:05:18,480 Speaker 2: police and the military, and they've promised to destroy you, 84 00:05:19,120 --> 00:05:23,800 Speaker 2: what does fighting back even mean. Up until the present moment, 85 00:05:23,960 --> 00:05:27,560 Speaker 2: the answer given by prominent liberals has generally been you 86 00:05:27,680 --> 00:05:31,040 Speaker 2: fight by voting, or by making your voice heard, or 87 00:05:31,080 --> 00:05:34,039 Speaker 2: something similar. I have a good friend who tried to 88 00:05:34,040 --> 00:05:36,880 Speaker 2: make her voice heard in twenty twenty. She is now 89 00:05:36,920 --> 00:05:40,279 Speaker 2: in early menopause in her twenties, after being rendered sterile 90 00:05:40,320 --> 00:05:43,640 Speaker 2: by chronic tear gas exposure. None of the officers who 91 00:05:43,680 --> 00:05:46,520 Speaker 2: poisoned her, or thousands of other Portlanders ever saw a 92 00:05:46,600 --> 00:05:51,240 Speaker 2: day behind bars. That would be wrong. They enjoy qualified immunity. 93 00:05:51,240 --> 00:05:54,799 Speaker 2: They're doing an important job one every person can agree 94 00:05:54,920 --> 00:05:58,720 Speaker 2: needs to be done. The year my friend was gassed repeatedly, 95 00:05:59,200 --> 00:06:01,880 Speaker 2: the highest paid Portland police officer was a man who 96 00:06:01,960 --> 00:06:05,039 Speaker 2: had been caught and briefly punished for maintaining a shrine 97 00:06:05,080 --> 00:06:08,400 Speaker 2: to the dead men of the waffen Ss on city property. 98 00:06:08,960 --> 00:06:12,040 Speaker 2: The Portland Police Union, the first police union in the country, 99 00:06:12,520 --> 00:06:15,320 Speaker 2: sued for him to be reinstated and to ensure that 100 00:06:15,400 --> 00:06:18,000 Speaker 2: he faced no punishment for this and was brought back 101 00:06:18,080 --> 00:06:21,440 Speaker 2: with full pay and benefits. So when you hear stories 102 00:06:21,839 --> 00:06:25,360 Speaker 2: of Homeland Security hiding Nazi songs and the recruiting ads 103 00:06:25,360 --> 00:06:29,880 Speaker 2: for ICE, remember it's not just an ICE problem. And 104 00:06:29,960 --> 00:06:33,440 Speaker 2: yet some liberals and progresses will tell me state and 105 00:06:33,520 --> 00:06:37,720 Speaker 2: local police aren't the enemy. ICE is just an aberin agency, 106 00:06:37,960 --> 00:06:41,400 Speaker 2: and surely there's some democratic cheat code we can use 107 00:06:41,480 --> 00:06:43,960 Speaker 2: to get the good guys in blue to help us 108 00:06:43,960 --> 00:06:48,719 Speaker 2: take them down. So much of the unchecked authoritarian nightmare 109 00:06:48,760 --> 00:06:51,640 Speaker 2: currently rampaging through our streets is the product of a 110 00:06:51,680 --> 00:06:56,560 Speaker 2: system that views policing as sacred, officers as infallible, and 111 00:06:56,720 --> 00:07:01,400 Speaker 2: protest as inherently suspicious and dangerous. This is the standard line, 112 00:07:01,520 --> 00:07:04,120 Speaker 2: even within the halls of power in the Democratic Party, 113 00:07:04,160 --> 00:07:06,680 Speaker 2: and it is part of why regular young people in 114 00:07:06,720 --> 00:07:14,880 Speaker 2: this country hate elected Democrats. The people out, thank you, 115 00:07:15,360 --> 00:07:18,520 Speaker 2: The people out in Minneapolis battling riot lines and sub 116 00:07:18,640 --> 00:07:22,280 Speaker 2: zero weather. No, there's no help coming. The cavalry does 117 00:07:22,320 --> 00:07:24,960 Speaker 2: not exist, and so they've had to build their own 118 00:07:25,040 --> 00:07:28,680 Speaker 2: architecture of resistance off and on the fly. Since immigrants 119 00:07:28,720 --> 00:07:31,840 Speaker 2: and other people being targeted by ICE can't safely shop 120 00:07:32,200 --> 00:07:35,640 Speaker 2: local businesses like Rectangle spelled like wreck is in a 121 00:07:35,680 --> 00:07:38,960 Speaker 2: car wreck pizza, have raised tens of thousands of dollars 122 00:07:39,000 --> 00:07:42,640 Speaker 2: to buy and distribute food and other necessities. Gathering and 123 00:07:42,720 --> 00:07:47,280 Speaker 2: handing out donated groceries feel safe, peaceful, and legal, but 124 00:07:47,360 --> 00:07:51,640 Speaker 2: that's not how ICE treats it. Rectangle's fundraising campaign earned 125 00:07:51,640 --> 00:07:54,120 Speaker 2: them a visit from armed ICE agents, who, for the 126 00:07:54,160 --> 00:07:58,200 Speaker 2: account of co owner Brianna Evans no relation, stormed up 127 00:07:58,200 --> 00:08:01,280 Speaker 2: on our door to try to get in. Thankfully, members 128 00:08:01,320 --> 00:08:03,880 Speaker 2: of the neighborhood had been standing guard. They were able 129 00:08:03,920 --> 00:08:06,400 Speaker 2: to raise a significant force of locals to swarm and 130 00:08:06,480 --> 00:08:09,120 Speaker 2: chase off Ice who tried to guess the neighborhood as 131 00:08:09,160 --> 00:08:11,560 Speaker 2: they were leaving, only to have their munitions kicked back 132 00:08:11,600 --> 00:08:14,680 Speaker 2: at them. This is one small example of the kind 133 00:08:14,680 --> 00:08:17,280 Speaker 2: of networks of aid and resistance that are evolving on 134 00:08:17,320 --> 00:08:20,480 Speaker 2: the ground right now as I speak. Another example that 135 00:08:20,560 --> 00:08:23,480 Speaker 2: arose in the wake of Renee Goods murder is ice Watch, 136 00:08:23,680 --> 00:08:27,480 Speaker 2: an informally organized network that activates members of the community 137 00:08:27,520 --> 00:08:31,000 Speaker 2: when ICE shows up in their area. The logic behind 138 00:08:31,000 --> 00:08:33,520 Speaker 2: ice Watch is that these federal agents will be less 139 00:08:33,600 --> 00:08:36,600 Speaker 2: likely to engage in extreme acts of violence while surrounded 140 00:08:36,640 --> 00:08:39,480 Speaker 2: by crowds of citizens following them and trying to wear 141 00:08:39,520 --> 00:08:42,760 Speaker 2: them down with shame. This is a good tactic, and 142 00:08:42,800 --> 00:08:46,080 Speaker 2: we here might rightly consider it a non violent tactic. 143 00:08:46,400 --> 00:08:50,520 Speaker 2: But the federal government does not remember Renee Good was 144 00:08:50,559 --> 00:08:54,800 Speaker 2: shot and killed for participating in exactly this kind of activism. 145 00:08:55,480 --> 00:08:59,000 Speaker 2: Through mouthpieces like Stephen Miller, the Trump administration has made 146 00:08:59,000 --> 00:09:02,840 Speaker 2: their stance their clear. Anyone impeding the actions of law 147 00:09:02,880 --> 00:09:06,280 Speaker 2: enforcement is a terrorist. Waving a sign or filming an 148 00:09:06,280 --> 00:09:08,840 Speaker 2: ICE agent makes you just as much a terrorist as 149 00:09:08,880 --> 00:09:11,920 Speaker 2: someone who breaks a window or throws a rock. You 150 00:09:12,120 --> 00:09:15,920 Speaker 2: cannot be so well behaved and appropriate in your resistance 151 00:09:16,160 --> 00:09:19,440 Speaker 2: that this government will not consider you a valid target. 152 00:09:20,160 --> 00:09:23,160 Speaker 2: And yet again and again, I see no spine or 153 00:09:23,200 --> 00:09:25,920 Speaker 2: backbone from the men setting themselves up as the future 154 00:09:26,040 --> 00:09:29,920 Speaker 2: of resistance to Trump. Gavin Newsom can't even stick to 155 00:09:29,960 --> 00:09:32,360 Speaker 2: his own guns. In his own podcast on whether or 156 00:09:32,480 --> 00:09:36,800 Speaker 2: not ICE is terrorizing Americans, Senator Corey Booker's big recent 157 00:09:36,840 --> 00:09:40,520 Speaker 2: suggestion was more training for ICE agents, as if the 158 00:09:40,559 --> 00:09:44,560 Speaker 2: men brutalizing our neighbors aren't doing exactly what they trained 159 00:09:44,559 --> 00:09:49,000 Speaker 2: to do. About a year after Joe Biden's inauguration, I 160 00:09:49,040 --> 00:09:51,800 Speaker 2: found myself up in the woods of rural Washington, an 161 00:09:51,840 --> 00:09:55,000 Speaker 2: hour or so outside of Seattle, doing firearm training with 162 00:09:55,040 --> 00:09:57,760 Speaker 2: a group of leftists side met during the twenty twenty protest. 163 00:09:57,840 --> 00:09:59,960 Speaker 2: And I know that kind of thing makes a lo 164 00:10:00,040 --> 00:10:03,480 Speaker 2: lot of people here uncomfortable, and I'm afraid a number 165 00:10:03,480 --> 00:10:06,199 Speaker 2: of things about our shared future might make you uncomfortable. 166 00:10:06,960 --> 00:10:09,400 Speaker 2: During a break in the activity, I sat down for 167 00:10:09,440 --> 00:10:11,360 Speaker 2: a smoke with a guy who'd spent the last several 168 00:10:11,440 --> 00:10:13,719 Speaker 2: years teaching himself to be an armor or someone who 169 00:10:13,760 --> 00:10:17,439 Speaker 2: repairs and maintains firearms. As he'd gained skill with this, 170 00:10:17,600 --> 00:10:20,640 Speaker 2: he'd started to take his grade school aged daughter out shooting. 171 00:10:21,120 --> 00:10:22,840 Speaker 2: He didn't like that, he felt like he had to 172 00:10:22,880 --> 00:10:25,480 Speaker 2: do this, but as he informed me, I don't know 173 00:10:25,559 --> 00:10:27,360 Speaker 2: that she won't have to fight for her right to 174 00:10:27,400 --> 00:10:30,839 Speaker 2: be treated like a human being. Hearing that, I thought 175 00:10:30,840 --> 00:10:33,000 Speaker 2: back to a woman i'd met a few years earlier 176 00:10:33,280 --> 00:10:36,440 Speaker 2: in the bad lands of rural Syria. She'd been held 177 00:10:36,440 --> 00:10:39,240 Speaker 2: as a slave by ISIS militants for two years, forced 178 00:10:39,280 --> 00:10:41,800 Speaker 2: into the kind of life that I hope is unimaginable 179 00:10:41,800 --> 00:10:44,760 Speaker 2: to anyone sitting in this room. One night, as the 180 00:10:44,800 --> 00:10:48,679 Speaker 2: Kurdish dominated militias of the SDF advanced on Isa's positions, 181 00:10:48,760 --> 00:10:52,040 Speaker 2: she managed to escape. After a harrowing journey on foot, 182 00:10:52,080 --> 00:10:54,560 Speaker 2: she found her way to the sdf's lines, where the 183 00:10:54,600 --> 00:10:57,040 Speaker 2: first person she saw was a fighter from an all 184 00:10:57,080 --> 00:11:00,480 Speaker 2: female unit holding an AK forty seven. She made the 185 00:11:00,520 --> 00:11:03,559 Speaker 2: decision to join up herself that very moment. She wanted 186 00:11:03,600 --> 00:11:06,000 Speaker 2: training in a gun of her own, because then, she 187 00:11:06,080 --> 00:11:10,040 Speaker 2: informed me, no man could ever own her again. Now, 188 00:11:10,360 --> 00:11:13,560 Speaker 2: politics isn't supposed to work that way in the United States. 189 00:11:13,600 --> 00:11:16,439 Speaker 2: People should not need to use weapons to defend their 190 00:11:16,440 --> 00:11:19,840 Speaker 2: most basic civil rights. But can you look at the 191 00:11:19,880 --> 00:11:22,960 Speaker 2: mobs of armed men breaking into homes and businesses in 192 00:11:22,960 --> 00:11:26,880 Speaker 2: Minneapolis and elsewhere, many sporting Nazi tattoos to go along 193 00:11:26,960 --> 00:11:30,800 Speaker 2: with their badges, and tell me definitively that we're going 194 00:11:30,840 --> 00:11:34,200 Speaker 2: to get through this without a fight. At the end 195 00:11:34,240 --> 00:11:36,440 Speaker 2: of the Second World War, as the dead were counted 196 00:11:36,480 --> 00:11:39,000 Speaker 2: to cries of never again, an attempt was made to 197 00:11:39,040 --> 00:11:42,760 Speaker 2: create a rules based international order built around the bones 198 00:11:42,760 --> 00:11:44,720 Speaker 2: of the last failed attempt to do so at the 199 00:11:44,800 --> 00:11:47,680 Speaker 2: end of the First World War, And as we stand 200 00:11:47,679 --> 00:11:51,040 Speaker 2: here in twenty twenty six, potentially looking at a US 201 00:11:51,040 --> 00:11:56,000 Speaker 2: invasion of Greenland, watching military helicopters circle American cities while 202 00:11:56,040 --> 00:11:59,040 Speaker 2: secret police snatch victims from their families and haul them 203 00:11:59,040 --> 00:12:03,000 Speaker 2: off to camps and deffortation facilities. We must admit that 204 00:12:03,080 --> 00:12:05,960 Speaker 2: this second attempt to create a rules based international order 205 00:12:06,320 --> 00:12:10,760 Speaker 2: is failing as well. We and our predecessors failed at 206 00:12:10,800 --> 00:12:13,960 Speaker 2: building and maintaining a system that would stop all of 207 00:12:14,000 --> 00:12:17,360 Speaker 2: this from happening again. There are many answers to the 208 00:12:17,440 --> 00:12:20,800 Speaker 2: question of how this happened. The fact that the United 209 00:12:20,800 --> 00:12:23,320 Speaker 2: States from the jump refused to be bound by the 210 00:12:23,360 --> 00:12:26,280 Speaker 2: same rules we hoped lesser nations would follow was certainly 211 00:12:26,360 --> 00:12:29,760 Speaker 2: part of the reason why our insistence that no foreign 212 00:12:29,840 --> 00:12:33,480 Speaker 2: court ever judge American politicians or American soldiers was as 213 00:12:33,559 --> 00:12:37,199 Speaker 2: narcissistic as it was insane. The creation of the Department 214 00:12:37,200 --> 00:12:40,520 Speaker 2: of Homeland Security, the ongoing militarization of the border and 215 00:12:40,600 --> 00:12:44,040 Speaker 2: border patrol, the granting of qualified immunity to police across 216 00:12:44,080 --> 00:12:47,160 Speaker 2: the country, these were all further steps on our national 217 00:12:47,240 --> 00:12:51,280 Speaker 2: road to perdition Citizens United. Our refusal to punish Facebook 218 00:12:51,280 --> 00:12:54,079 Speaker 2: executives over the Cambridge Analytica scannal, and our failure to 219 00:12:54,200 --> 00:12:57,480 Speaker 2: charge the people responsible for January sixth with treason are 220 00:12:57,520 --> 00:13:01,079 Speaker 2: all further steps on that road. I could talk about 221 00:13:01,080 --> 00:13:03,760 Speaker 2: what led us hear for hours, but all that matters 222 00:13:03,840 --> 00:13:08,319 Speaker 2: is this, We the United States are not special. Our 223 00:13:08,400 --> 00:13:11,880 Speaker 2: long democratic traditions, great wealth, and high opinion of ourselves 224 00:13:11,880 --> 00:13:26,559 Speaker 2: have not protected us. The enemy is that the gates. Now. 225 00:13:26,559 --> 00:13:28,640 Speaker 2: I don't mean to act as if all is lost, 226 00:13:28,920 --> 00:13:31,880 Speaker 2: or as if the only path forward is bloody, internesting war, 227 00:13:32,000 --> 00:13:34,920 Speaker 2: because I don't believe that the cause of rationality, of 228 00:13:35,000 --> 00:13:38,200 Speaker 2: basic human decency still has a lot going for it. 229 00:13:38,760 --> 00:13:41,960 Speaker 2: The vast majority of Americans hate this president, just as 230 00:13:42,000 --> 00:13:45,360 Speaker 2: they despise the Republican Party and the vicious, cruel and 231 00:13:45,440 --> 00:13:49,200 Speaker 2: soulless monster. The Conservative project has proved to be pole 232 00:13:49,280 --> 00:13:52,360 Speaker 2: after poll shows this. We also see it in videos 233 00:13:52,400 --> 00:13:55,520 Speaker 2: of grandfathers kicking tear gas cands back at ICE agents 234 00:13:55,559 --> 00:14:00,240 Speaker 2: in Minneapolis. The bad guys are outnumbered. We can't forget this, 235 00:14:00,679 --> 00:14:03,880 Speaker 2: and they certainly won't. But the bad guys also have 236 00:14:04,120 --> 00:14:07,079 Speaker 2: guns and the legal right to use them however they want, 237 00:14:07,240 --> 00:14:10,520 Speaker 2: whenever they want, on whoever they want. Just because they 238 00:14:10,600 --> 00:14:13,240 Speaker 2: might lose an election doesn't mean they're handing in their 239 00:14:13,280 --> 00:14:16,960 Speaker 2: badges or their weapons. So how do you plan to 240 00:14:16,960 --> 00:14:19,640 Speaker 2: make them. One thing that gives me a sense of 241 00:14:19,640 --> 00:14:22,240 Speaker 2: hope as I look around the country is that increasing 242 00:14:22,320 --> 00:14:24,920 Speaker 2: numbers of liberals and progressives seem to be waking up 243 00:14:24,960 --> 00:14:28,960 Speaker 2: to the idea that this is an existential fight. Perhaps 244 00:14:29,000 --> 00:14:32,160 Speaker 2: the most hopeful thing I've seen recently is that in Minneapolis, 245 00:14:32,200 --> 00:14:35,600 Speaker 2: a coalition of labor unions and community organizations have come 246 00:14:35,640 --> 00:14:38,800 Speaker 2: together to call for a limited general strike that just 247 00:14:38,840 --> 00:14:42,560 Speaker 2: so happens to be today, January twenty third, twenty twenty six. 248 00:14:42,880 --> 00:14:47,480 Speaker 2: That's right, for a single day. There will be no work, 249 00:14:47,680 --> 00:14:51,520 Speaker 2: no school, no shopping. Now, this is a demonstrative act 250 00:14:51,600 --> 00:14:53,840 Speaker 2: when you might compare to the flexing of a muscle. 251 00:14:54,360 --> 00:14:57,160 Speaker 2: No one involved thinks that one day of striking is 252 00:14:57,240 --> 00:14:59,960 Speaker 2: going to be enough, But nothing less than a general 253 00:15:00,200 --> 00:15:04,360 Speaker 2: strike has the potential to force concessions, even capitulation, from 254 00:15:04,360 --> 00:15:07,800 Speaker 2: the regime, and you have to start somewhere. This is 255 00:15:07,840 --> 00:15:10,600 Speaker 2: another example of an active, peaceful protest that will be 256 00:15:10,680 --> 00:15:14,640 Speaker 2: considered anything but peaceful as soon as the regime feels threatened, 257 00:15:15,200 --> 00:15:18,400 Speaker 2: and people on the ground in Minneapolis know this. Whenever 258 00:15:18,440 --> 00:15:21,040 Speaker 2: I talk to activists, whether they live in Los Angeles 259 00:15:21,040 --> 00:15:24,640 Speaker 2: and Portland, a land of Minneapolis, Philadelphia. I see the 260 00:15:24,680 --> 00:15:27,760 Speaker 2: same thing I saw in people in twenty twenty, a 261 00:15:27,880 --> 00:15:31,280 Speaker 2: grim but very accurate assessment of what this fight is 262 00:15:31,320 --> 00:15:33,960 Speaker 2: going to cost them. They are going to lose eyes 263 00:15:34,080 --> 00:15:36,800 Speaker 2: and maybe limbs to riot munitions. They and their friends 264 00:15:36,840 --> 00:15:41,120 Speaker 2: will be arrested, beaten, possibly tortured, and imprisoned. All of 265 00:15:41,160 --> 00:15:44,760 Speaker 2: these things are happening right now to regular people who 266 00:15:44,760 --> 00:15:47,280 Speaker 2: have done nothing more than speak up and lend aid 267 00:15:47,360 --> 00:15:50,480 Speaker 2: and comfort to their afflicted neighbors. They are willing to 268 00:15:50,560 --> 00:15:53,240 Speaker 2: risk their lives because they know the hour is late. 269 00:15:54,600 --> 00:15:57,120 Speaker 2: I have not seen anything that approaches this level of 270 00:15:57,160 --> 00:16:01,280 Speaker 2: commitment from the liberal intelligencia, from most elects, to Democratic officials, 271 00:16:01,400 --> 00:16:05,119 Speaker 2: or from the party itself. JB. Pritzker calls out accurately 272 00:16:05,280 --> 00:16:08,080 Speaker 2: our present situation as being like the early years of 273 00:16:08,160 --> 00:16:11,640 Speaker 2: the Third Reich, and yet, like every Democrat in power, 274 00:16:11,720 --> 00:16:16,800 Speaker 2: he falls short of elucidating absolution beyond peaceful protest. And 275 00:16:16,880 --> 00:16:19,000 Speaker 2: if I can get only one point across to you, 276 00:16:19,280 --> 00:16:22,240 Speaker 2: let it be this. As far as the regime is concerned, 277 00:16:22,480 --> 00:16:25,760 Speaker 2: there is no such thing. All dissent is violent. You 278 00:16:25,880 --> 00:16:28,440 Speaker 2: attending the symposium as an act of terrorism, and they 279 00:16:28,440 --> 00:16:30,320 Speaker 2: will punish you for it once they get through the 280 00:16:30,360 --> 00:16:34,120 Speaker 2: people they see as more immediate threats. There's a book 281 00:16:34,400 --> 00:16:36,760 Speaker 2: I come back to again and again when trying to 282 00:16:36,800 --> 00:16:39,920 Speaker 2: puzzle out my own path forward in these unsettling times. 283 00:16:40,560 --> 00:16:43,560 Speaker 2: It's titled They Thought They Were Free? And the author 284 00:16:43,680 --> 00:16:47,680 Speaker 2: was a Jewish American progressive journalist and educator named Milton Meyer. 285 00:16:48,440 --> 00:16:51,360 Speaker 2: Not long after World War Two in the early nineteen fifties, 286 00:16:51,600 --> 00:16:53,880 Speaker 2: he moved to a small German village to get and 287 00:16:53,920 --> 00:16:56,920 Speaker 2: know and interview a number of ordinary citizens about their 288 00:16:56,960 --> 00:17:00,680 Speaker 2: involvement with the Nazi Party. Meyer call these men and 289 00:17:00,720 --> 00:17:04,080 Speaker 2: women the little Nazis to contrast them from the big 290 00:17:04,200 --> 00:17:07,560 Speaker 2: Nazis like Himmler and Heydrich and Gerring. These were not 291 00:17:07,680 --> 00:17:10,280 Speaker 2: people who had been movers and shakers and the party, 292 00:17:10,440 --> 00:17:14,120 Speaker 2: nor had most of them been particularly active or early members. 293 00:17:14,480 --> 00:17:17,680 Speaker 2: They were regular people who had latched onto Nazism late, 294 00:17:17,920 --> 00:17:22,120 Speaker 2: but supported it enthusiastically because of the benefits it gave them. 295 00:17:22,359 --> 00:17:24,679 Speaker 2: They Thought They Were Free is a chilling read for 296 00:17:24,720 --> 00:17:27,679 Speaker 2: a number of reasons, but there's no competition for the 297 00:17:27,680 --> 00:17:31,040 Speaker 2: most frightening passage in the whole work. For Meyer didn't 298 00:17:31,080 --> 00:17:34,000 Speaker 2: only interview little Nazis. He sat down with people we 299 00:17:34,119 --> 00:17:37,880 Speaker 2: might call little anti fascists. These were Germans who never 300 00:17:37,880 --> 00:17:40,679 Speaker 2: bought into Nazism. They hated it from the jump. They 301 00:17:40,720 --> 00:17:42,960 Speaker 2: even fought it for a time, but they were never 302 00:17:43,080 --> 00:17:45,919 Speaker 2: central organizers or members of the resistance. And when it 303 00:17:45,960 --> 00:17:48,880 Speaker 2: became clear that the Third Reich had taken power, they 304 00:17:48,920 --> 00:17:52,920 Speaker 2: faded into the woodwork to try and stay alive. Meyer 305 00:17:52,960 --> 00:17:54,960 Speaker 2: sat down with one of these people, a friend of 306 00:17:54,960 --> 00:17:57,439 Speaker 2: his who worked as a chemical engineer, and asked him, 307 00:17:57,480 --> 00:18:00,959 Speaker 2: one day, tell me, now, how was the world lost. 308 00:18:02,119 --> 00:18:05,520 Speaker 2: Here's how his response started. The world was lost one 309 00:18:05,560 --> 00:18:08,359 Speaker 2: day in nineteen thirty five here in Germany. It was 310 00:18:08,440 --> 00:18:10,720 Speaker 2: I who lost it. And I will tell you how. 311 00:18:11,000 --> 00:18:13,480 Speaker 2: I was employed in a defense plant, a war plant, 312 00:18:13,480 --> 00:18:16,399 Speaker 2: of course, but they were always called defense plants. That 313 00:18:16,560 --> 00:18:18,760 Speaker 2: was the year of the National Defense Law, the law 314 00:18:18,760 --> 00:18:21,879 Speaker 2: of total conscription. Under the law, I was required to 315 00:18:21,920 --> 00:18:24,359 Speaker 2: take an oath of fidelity. I said I would not. 316 00:18:24,720 --> 00:18:27,320 Speaker 2: I opposed it in conscience. I was given twenty four 317 00:18:27,359 --> 00:18:30,040 Speaker 2: hours to think it over. In those twenty four hours, 318 00:18:30,359 --> 00:18:34,040 Speaker 2: I lost the world. Now, this man, this friend of myers, 319 00:18:34,440 --> 00:18:37,320 Speaker 2: knew that refusing to give the oath wouldn't cost him 320 00:18:37,359 --> 00:18:39,760 Speaker 2: his freedom. But it would cost him his job and 321 00:18:39,800 --> 00:18:42,320 Speaker 2: make it impossible for him to get another. No one 322 00:18:42,359 --> 00:18:45,639 Speaker 2: would hire a Bolshevik, and although he'd never been a Bolshevik, 323 00:18:45,800 --> 00:18:49,000 Speaker 2: once the fascists take over, everyone who isn't a fascist 324 00:18:49,240 --> 00:18:52,119 Speaker 2: becomes the worst thing they ever called their enemies. Today, 325 00:18:52,119 --> 00:18:56,400 Speaker 2: I guess it would be far left extremists or antifa terrorists. Anyway, 326 00:18:56,680 --> 00:18:59,680 Speaker 2: Meyer's friend explained that he thought he couldn't risk being 327 00:18:59,720 --> 00:19:02,320 Speaker 2: target with that brush, not because he wanted to escape 328 00:19:02,320 --> 00:19:04,359 Speaker 2: with his family and get a job elsewhere, but because 329 00:19:04,359 --> 00:19:07,000 Speaker 2: he genuinely wanted to stay in Germany and fight the 330 00:19:07,000 --> 00:19:10,240 Speaker 2: good fight. He had many German Jewish colleagues and other 331 00:19:10,280 --> 00:19:12,720 Speaker 2: dissident friends he wanted to be able to help, and 332 00:19:12,760 --> 00:19:15,720 Speaker 2: he calculated, quote, if I took the oath and held 333 00:19:15,720 --> 00:19:18,480 Speaker 2: my job, I might be of help somehow as things 334 00:19:18,520 --> 00:19:20,960 Speaker 2: went on. If I refused to take the oath, I 335 00:19:21,000 --> 00:19:23,480 Speaker 2: would certainly be useless to my friends. Even if I 336 00:19:23,520 --> 00:19:26,359 Speaker 2: remained in the country, I myself would be in their situation. 337 00:19:27,240 --> 00:19:29,439 Speaker 2: And so he decided to take the pledge, making a 338 00:19:29,440 --> 00:19:31,760 Speaker 2: decision I think many of us would have made. Telling 339 00:19:31,800 --> 00:19:34,280 Speaker 2: himself simply that by saying the words I swear to 340 00:19:34,359 --> 00:19:37,480 Speaker 2: God he was ensuring no human being or government could 341 00:19:37,480 --> 00:19:40,359 Speaker 2: override his conscience, and he was as good as his word. 342 00:19:40,480 --> 00:19:43,479 Speaker 2: Through the war years, Meyer's friend helped save many lives, 343 00:19:43,800 --> 00:19:46,200 Speaker 2: using his apartment as a safe house for people fleeing 344 00:19:46,280 --> 00:19:49,600 Speaker 2: the Third Reich. That's incredibly admirable. I think we can 345 00:19:49,640 --> 00:19:52,720 Speaker 2: all agree. But Meyer's friend felt nothing but shame for 346 00:19:52,800 --> 00:19:55,640 Speaker 2: his actions. He said later of the day he took 347 00:19:55,720 --> 00:19:59,199 Speaker 2: the oath. That day the world was lost, and it 348 00:19:59,280 --> 00:20:02,919 Speaker 2: was I who lost it. Now, Meyer was confused by this, 349 00:20:03,160 --> 00:20:05,119 Speaker 2: saying what I'd imagine most of us would say in 350 00:20:05,160 --> 00:20:07,600 Speaker 2: his position, Well, by taking the oath, you were able 351 00:20:07,600 --> 00:20:09,840 Speaker 2: to save many lives. You were just one man, and 352 00:20:09,880 --> 00:20:12,840 Speaker 2: the Third Reich was already in power. What more could 353 00:20:12,880 --> 00:20:16,440 Speaker 2: you have done? Here was his friend's response. Of course, 354 00:20:16,480 --> 00:20:19,000 Speaker 2: I must explain. First of all, there is the problem 355 00:20:19,080 --> 00:20:21,359 Speaker 2: of the lesser evil. Taking the oath was not so 356 00:20:21,440 --> 00:20:23,560 Speaker 2: evil as being unable to help my friends later on 357 00:20:23,680 --> 00:20:26,159 Speaker 2: would have been. But the evil of the oath was 358 00:20:26,240 --> 00:20:28,879 Speaker 2: certain and immediate, and the helping of my friends was 359 00:20:28,880 --> 00:20:31,679 Speaker 2: in the future and therefore uncertain. I had to commit 360 00:20:31,720 --> 00:20:34,560 Speaker 2: a positive evil there and then, in the hope of 361 00:20:34,600 --> 00:20:37,800 Speaker 2: a possible good later on, the good outweighed the evil, 362 00:20:37,920 --> 00:20:40,919 Speaker 2: but the good was only a hope, the evil a fact. 363 00:20:41,720 --> 00:20:44,040 Speaker 2: He went on to insist that if he had refused 364 00:20:44,040 --> 00:20:46,479 Speaker 2: to take the oath of fidelity, he could have saved 365 00:20:46,520 --> 00:20:50,320 Speaker 2: the people later killed by the Nazi regime. And Meyer responded, logically, 366 00:20:50,640 --> 00:20:53,320 Speaker 2: you don't truly believe that your lone refusal could have 367 00:20:53,359 --> 00:20:56,680 Speaker 2: overthrown the Reich in nineteen thirty five, And his friend said, no, 368 00:20:57,080 --> 00:21:00,560 Speaker 2: of course not, but then went on to elaborate, there 369 00:21:00,600 --> 00:21:03,359 Speaker 2: I was, in nineteen thirty five a perfect example of 370 00:21:03,440 --> 00:21:05,840 Speaker 2: the kind of person who, with all his advantages in 371 00:21:05,880 --> 00:21:08,879 Speaker 2: birth and education and in position, rules or might easily 372 00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:11,600 Speaker 2: rule in any country. If I had refused to take 373 00:21:11,640 --> 00:21:13,920 Speaker 2: the oath in nineteen thirty five, it would have meant 374 00:21:13,960 --> 00:21:16,800 Speaker 2: that thousands and thousands like me all over Germany were 375 00:21:16,800 --> 00:21:19,800 Speaker 2: refusing to take it. Their refusal would have heartened millions. 376 00:21:20,000 --> 00:21:22,560 Speaker 2: Thus the regime would have been overthrown, or indeed would 377 00:21:22,560 --> 00:21:25,080 Speaker 2: never have come to power in the first place. The 378 00:21:25,119 --> 00:21:27,520 Speaker 2: fact that I was not prepared to resist in nineteen 379 00:21:27,560 --> 00:21:30,359 Speaker 2: thirty five meant that all the thousands, hundreds of thousands 380 00:21:30,480 --> 00:21:33,720 Speaker 2: like me in Germany were also unprepared. Each one of 381 00:21:33,760 --> 00:21:36,240 Speaker 2: these hundreds of thousands, was like me, a man of 382 00:21:36,280 --> 00:21:40,280 Speaker 2: great influence or of great potential influence. Thus the world 383 00:21:40,359 --> 00:21:43,840 Speaker 2: was lost. Now Meyer still doesn't believe his friend because 384 00:21:43,840 --> 00:21:46,720 Speaker 2: he's bogged down in the historical details, the nitty gritty 385 00:21:46,760 --> 00:21:49,960 Speaker 2: of the rise of fascism. His friend, who lived through that, 386 00:21:50,400 --> 00:21:53,440 Speaker 2: is instead focused on the greater moral and historic truths 387 00:21:53,480 --> 00:21:56,800 Speaker 2: behind it. These hundred lives I saved, he told Meyer, 388 00:21:57,000 --> 00:21:58,960 Speaker 2: or a thousand or ten, as you will. What do 389 00:21:59,040 --> 00:22:02,240 Speaker 2: they represent? A little something out of the whole terrible evil, 390 00:22:02,560 --> 00:22:04,720 Speaker 2: When if my faith had been strong enough in nineteen 391 00:22:04,800 --> 00:22:08,160 Speaker 2: thirty five, I could have prevented the whole evil. Now 392 00:22:08,160 --> 00:22:11,520 Speaker 2: the faith he's expressing isn't a religious belief per se, 393 00:22:11,560 --> 00:22:14,399 Speaker 2: but rather faith that right and wrong exist, and that 394 00:22:14,480 --> 00:22:17,800 Speaker 2: when people step into our communities hell bent on harming others, 395 00:22:18,119 --> 00:22:21,600 Speaker 2: they should be stopped by any means necessary. So Meyer 396 00:22:21,680 --> 00:22:24,439 Speaker 2: asks him, can you imagine anything your society might have 397 00:22:24,480 --> 00:22:27,120 Speaker 2: done to sustain your faith, to ensure you and other 398 00:22:27,160 --> 00:22:30,240 Speaker 2: Germans like you would have been prepared to resist. Meyer's 399 00:22:30,240 --> 00:22:34,080 Speaker 2: friend realizes he's speaking about education, the very American idea 400 00:22:34,080 --> 00:22:37,000 Speaker 2: that ideologies like fascism thrive in ignorance, and can be 401 00:22:37,080 --> 00:22:40,119 Speaker 2: banished by the light, he insisted. Meyer was barking up 402 00:22:40,160 --> 00:22:43,520 Speaker 2: the wrong tree. My education did not help me, he said, 403 00:22:43,600 --> 00:22:46,000 Speaker 2: And I had a broader and better education than most 404 00:22:46,040 --> 00:22:48,639 Speaker 2: men have or ever will have. All it did, in 405 00:22:48,680 --> 00:22:52,159 Speaker 2: the end was enable me to rationalize my failure of 406 00:22:52,200 --> 00:22:54,720 Speaker 2: faith more easily that I might have done if I 407 00:22:54,760 --> 00:22:57,359 Speaker 2: had been ignorant. And so it was. I think among 408 00:22:57,480 --> 00:23:01,040 Speaker 2: educated men generally in that time in Germany, their resistance 409 00:23:01,240 --> 00:23:04,480 Speaker 2: was no greater than other men's. And that's my challenge 410 00:23:04,520 --> 00:23:07,720 Speaker 2: today to everyone at this symposium, and in fact to myself. 411 00:23:08,080 --> 00:23:10,040 Speaker 2: We all have the benefit of an education where all 412 00:23:10,040 --> 00:23:12,320 Speaker 2: the kind of people who sit down in nice rooms 413 00:23:12,359 --> 00:23:15,560 Speaker 2: to discuss the issues. It is incumbent on us to 414 00:23:15,640 --> 00:23:18,879 Speaker 2: look out at the people struggling in Chicago and Minneapolis 415 00:23:18,880 --> 00:23:21,800 Speaker 2: and Los Angeles and Portland and Philadelphia and everywhere else 416 00:23:22,080 --> 00:23:25,160 Speaker 2: and ask ourselves, how can I support them, and how 417 00:23:25,200 --> 00:23:28,159 Speaker 2: can I go further? The answer to that question is 418 00:23:28,160 --> 00:23:30,320 Speaker 2: going to be a little different for everyone here, But 419 00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:32,480 Speaker 2: none of us can afford to hold on to our 420 00:23:32,520 --> 00:23:35,920 Speaker 2: old ideas of what counts as acceptable and unacceptable protest. 421 00:23:36,359 --> 00:23:38,639 Speaker 2: We're all going to have to become more comfortable with 422 00:23:38,720 --> 00:23:41,919 Speaker 2: taking on risk, because the boundaries between what is legal 423 00:23:41,920 --> 00:23:44,440 Speaker 2: and illegal are going to change on a daily basis 424 00:23:44,840 --> 00:23:47,159 Speaker 2: as we prepare for what comes next. We could all 425 00:23:47,200 --> 00:23:48,919 Speaker 2: do a lot worse than to take the advice of 426 00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:52,480 Speaker 2: New Hampshire Episcopal Bishop Rob Hirschfeld, who, during a vigil 427 00:23:52,520 --> 00:23:55,920 Speaker 2: for renee Good, told his clergy get your affairs in order, 428 00:23:56,240 --> 00:23:58,880 Speaker 2: make sure you have your wills written, because it may 429 00:23:58,920 --> 00:24:01,560 Speaker 2: be that now is no longer the time for statements, 430 00:24:01,840 --> 00:24:04,560 Speaker 2: but for us, with our bodies, to stand between the 431 00:24:04,640 --> 00:24:07,040 Speaker 2: powers of this world and the most vulnerable. 432 00:24:08,240 --> 00:24:08,920 Speaker 4: Where I got. 433 00:24:21,080 --> 00:24:27,760 Speaker 3: Thank you, Robert for that amazing speech, inspiring, sobering, challenging, 434 00:24:27,920 --> 00:24:31,040 Speaker 3: confronting all of those things. It sort of almost feels 435 00:24:32,040 --> 00:24:34,880 Speaker 3: I didn't want to describe it because in describing it, 436 00:24:34,960 --> 00:24:38,359 Speaker 3: I feel that it may reduce it to anecdote. It 437 00:24:38,400 --> 00:24:41,760 Speaker 3: was so powerful, But you know, I was so struck 438 00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:46,080 Speaker 3: by your reference to Milton Mayer's account of the man 439 00:24:46,119 --> 00:24:50,920 Speaker 3: who took the oath and who later said that day 440 00:24:50,960 --> 00:24:53,760 Speaker 3: the world was lost, and it was I who lost it. 441 00:24:54,840 --> 00:24:57,640 Speaker 3: And I think that when liberals today, all of us, 442 00:24:57,760 --> 00:25:00,320 Speaker 3: you know, we tell ourselves that we're too using a 443 00:25:00,359 --> 00:25:05,160 Speaker 3: lesser evil. We're staying quiet, or we're sort of staying 444 00:25:05,359 --> 00:25:07,320 Speaker 3: within the bounds. 445 00:25:06,840 --> 00:25:08,280 Speaker 4: Of you know, a particular reaction. 446 00:25:09,119 --> 00:25:11,560 Speaker 3: I often ask myself the question, you know, what are 447 00:25:11,560 --> 00:25:15,520 Speaker 3: we giving away in the process, you know, what compels 448 00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:19,600 Speaker 3: people to cross from accommodation into moral risk? And is 449 00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:23,000 Speaker 3: there a moment ahead where mass refusal could alter that 450 00:25:23,080 --> 00:25:27,240 Speaker 3: trajectory or has that window already begun to close? You know, 451 00:25:27,280 --> 00:25:30,280 Speaker 3: I think of my own, my own experience. You know, 452 00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:32,320 Speaker 3: some people in the room know that I was a 453 00:25:32,359 --> 00:25:35,560 Speaker 3: political prisoner in South Africa, and you know, I made 454 00:25:35,560 --> 00:25:38,000 Speaker 3: a very conscious decision at a certain point, and it 455 00:25:38,040 --> 00:25:41,960 Speaker 3: was a moral decision to get involved in the antipoteid struggle, 456 00:25:42,080 --> 00:25:46,000 Speaker 3: knowing what the costs were. But I would love to 457 00:25:46,119 --> 00:25:49,560 Speaker 3: hear from you about what it is you think that 458 00:25:49,720 --> 00:25:52,200 Speaker 3: compels people, as I said earlier on. 459 00:25:52,600 --> 00:25:55,080 Speaker 4: To cross from accommodation into moral risk. 460 00:25:55,680 --> 00:25:58,520 Speaker 2: I think that's a fascinating and an incredibly important question, 461 00:25:58,640 --> 00:26:00,639 Speaker 2: and it's when I don't have a person answer to 462 00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:03,760 Speaker 2: because there's a degree of mystery. I've been a number 463 00:26:03,800 --> 00:26:07,399 Speaker 2: of times with a crowd who you've seen it kind 464 00:26:07,440 --> 00:26:10,159 Speaker 2: of come across their eyes, and like confrontations with local 465 00:26:10,160 --> 00:26:13,359 Speaker 2: police or with federal ass that we have the Mountain numbered, 466 00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:15,200 Speaker 2: and sometimes we have the mount numbered, and their AMMO 467 00:26:15,359 --> 00:26:18,439 Speaker 2: just ran dry. And you see everybody in the crowd 468 00:26:18,480 --> 00:26:21,000 Speaker 2: make a decision in that moment to kind of stay 469 00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:24,800 Speaker 2: where they are, to not see what could come next, right, 470 00:26:24,880 --> 00:26:28,040 Speaker 2: to not take a step forward, because they all have lives, 471 00:26:28,119 --> 00:26:31,320 Speaker 2: because we have a functional enough society, because people have 472 00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:33,760 Speaker 2: kids to get back to and jobs to get back to, 473 00:26:33,840 --> 00:26:37,520 Speaker 2: and nobody wants to play act at an October revolution 474 00:26:37,640 --> 00:26:40,280 Speaker 2: in between the middle of their work week. And one 475 00:26:40,320 --> 00:26:42,080 Speaker 2: of the things that is a potential moment of change 476 00:26:42,080 --> 00:26:45,760 Speaker 2: is when that the certainty of well, I have a life, right, 477 00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:48,000 Speaker 2: and my friends have lives, and we all have something 478 00:26:48,040 --> 00:26:50,720 Speaker 2: to get back to. When you have a large enough 479 00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:52,959 Speaker 2: chunk of the populace who doesn't feel that way, who 480 00:26:53,040 --> 00:26:56,000 Speaker 2: feels like, well, they've taken what I would go back to, 481 00:26:56,119 --> 00:26:59,439 Speaker 2: they've taken any sense of security I have. There's no 482 00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:02,919 Speaker 2: longer a point in me holding back because the state 483 00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:06,280 Speaker 2: is not holding back, and I don't have anything to 484 00:27:06,320 --> 00:27:09,720 Speaker 2: go back to. That's one of the things that causes 485 00:27:09,920 --> 00:27:12,919 Speaker 2: mass and sudden flips. And you asked a little earlier, 486 00:27:12,920 --> 00:27:15,600 Speaker 2: do I think the window is closing, and I think 487 00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:20,520 Speaker 2: kind of somewhat paradoxically, the window starts closing as soon 488 00:27:20,520 --> 00:27:22,879 Speaker 2: as it opens, but it can never close all the 489 00:27:22,920 --> 00:27:26,000 Speaker 2: way because there's not a lot of them. This is 490 00:27:26,040 --> 00:27:28,960 Speaker 2: true in every country, with every state police force compared 491 00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:31,560 Speaker 2: to the size of the populace. And so there's always 492 00:27:31,600 --> 00:27:34,720 Speaker 2: a potential when enough people get angry and enough people 493 00:27:34,760 --> 00:27:38,920 Speaker 2: get radicalized, that a system, even with the amount of 494 00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:42,520 Speaker 2: violence behind it that ours has, can be toppled. That said, 495 00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:46,320 Speaker 2: the longer we let this go on, the more they 496 00:27:46,359 --> 00:27:50,840 Speaker 2: have wrapped their fingers around every aspect of policing injustice 497 00:27:50,840 --> 00:27:54,840 Speaker 2: in this country, the more ability they have given their 498 00:27:54,920 --> 00:27:59,400 Speaker 2: officers to utilize violence, to utilize advanced weaponry, to utilize 499 00:27:59,480 --> 00:28:03,040 Speaker 2: drones and things like stingrays and whatnot against protesters. And 500 00:28:03,080 --> 00:28:07,160 Speaker 2: so in that way, the window within which people can 501 00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:09,840 Speaker 2: react and feel like they have a decent chance of 502 00:28:09,880 --> 00:28:13,920 Speaker 2: getting away or of succeeding closes because the force deployed 503 00:28:13,920 --> 00:28:16,240 Speaker 2: against them gets larger, which makes it a lot scarier 504 00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:18,800 Speaker 2: and makes people less likely to take those risks. 505 00:28:19,800 --> 00:28:22,960 Speaker 3: So so what does fighting back actually mean? 506 00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:24,480 Speaker 4: I mean that that's. 507 00:28:24,280 --> 00:28:26,520 Speaker 3: Really yeah, you know, that's a really I think that 508 00:28:26,520 --> 00:28:29,119 Speaker 3: That's a really important question because you know, as you 509 00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:32,000 Speaker 3: spoke about in your you know, in your remarks, and 510 00:28:32,040 --> 00:28:35,280 Speaker 3: we know so well that you know, when the government 511 00:28:35,320 --> 00:28:38,840 Speaker 3: or whatever controls the police, they control the military, you know, 512 00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:41,800 Speaker 3: and if that has identified you as being you know, 513 00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:44,600 Speaker 3: quote unquot to terrorist, regardless of you know, what the 514 00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:49,640 Speaker 3: circumstances might be, what does fighting back actually mean? You know, 515 00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:52,440 Speaker 3: what what is that resistance encompass? And we know that 516 00:28:52,520 --> 00:28:55,640 Speaker 3: it can take many many forms. So I sort of 517 00:28:55,640 --> 00:28:57,680 Speaker 3: want to push you a little bit more. You know, 518 00:28:57,720 --> 00:29:01,520 Speaker 3: what does fighting back actually mean? But what for you 519 00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:06,480 Speaker 3: feels morally defensible and what genuinely troubles you? 520 00:29:07,400 --> 00:29:10,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess to start with if the question is 521 00:29:10,720 --> 00:29:12,720 Speaker 2: what does fighting back look like in terms of what 522 00:29:12,840 --> 00:29:15,040 Speaker 2: is an escalation from the ways in which we're currently 523 00:29:15,040 --> 00:29:17,960 Speaker 2: fighting back that is still within the bounds of what 524 00:29:18,120 --> 00:29:20,440 Speaker 2: most people on our side of the aisle would call 525 00:29:20,560 --> 00:29:24,920 Speaker 2: like peaceful and morally justified if it's not legal, right, Well, 526 00:29:24,920 --> 00:29:26,800 Speaker 2: one thing that comes to mind is a general strike, 527 00:29:26,840 --> 00:29:28,640 Speaker 2: and in fact, the only thing that comes to mind 528 00:29:28,640 --> 00:29:31,280 Speaker 2: that I think actually has serious weight. The way to 529 00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:35,440 Speaker 2: uproot a security state as powerful and established as ours 530 00:29:35,520 --> 00:29:38,959 Speaker 2: is the way to uproot a regime that' says entrenched 531 00:29:38,960 --> 00:29:40,840 Speaker 2: as ours is is a general strike, it's almost the 532 00:29:40,880 --> 00:29:43,120 Speaker 2: only leverage that we have, which is why I'm happy 533 00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:45,600 Speaker 2: to see them starting to explore doing it. And as 534 00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:49,080 Speaker 2: a real thing in Minneapolis, you get this thing online 535 00:29:49,160 --> 00:29:52,080 Speaker 2: and Twitter, on Blue Sky whatever, where people will periodically 536 00:29:52,080 --> 00:29:55,080 Speaker 2: be like, we're doing a general strike next week, nobody 537 00:29:55,160 --> 00:29:56,880 Speaker 2: go to workers shop, and it's like, that's not how 538 00:29:56,880 --> 00:29:58,760 Speaker 2: it works. You've got to you have to have the 539 00:29:58,800 --> 00:30:01,240 Speaker 2: backing of unions, you have to have you have to 540 00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:03,680 Speaker 2: have a lot of infrastructure set up to try and 541 00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:05,479 Speaker 2: figure out how are we going to feed people, How 542 00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:07,000 Speaker 2: are we going to keep people's lights on as much 543 00:30:07,040 --> 00:30:09,280 Speaker 2: as possible, How are we going to provide people with 544 00:30:09,360 --> 00:30:13,160 Speaker 2: the necessities during what will probably be an extended period 545 00:30:13,160 --> 00:30:14,960 Speaker 2: of time out of work and a time in which, 546 00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:17,880 Speaker 2: if you're talking about a real general strike, a lot 547 00:30:17,960 --> 00:30:21,240 Speaker 2: of the pillars that uphold daily life and our daily 548 00:30:21,280 --> 00:30:24,360 Speaker 2: comforts will start to fail if it's an actual, functional 549 00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:28,320 Speaker 2: general strike, and so you have to have systems built 550 00:30:28,400 --> 00:30:30,560 Speaker 2: up for that. And it's one of the things people 551 00:30:30,640 --> 00:30:33,840 Speaker 2: don't often think about when they're hearing these kind of 552 00:30:33,880 --> 00:30:37,640 Speaker 2: big hitch ideas for resistance campaigns. One of my favorite 553 00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:41,320 Speaker 2: examples of this just in terms of like the difference 554 00:30:41,320 --> 00:30:43,600 Speaker 2: between here's the idea and here's the things we have 555 00:30:43,640 --> 00:30:46,520 Speaker 2: to do to execute it. In Liberia, kind of at 556 00:30:46,560 --> 00:30:49,280 Speaker 2: the end of the last really big period they had 557 00:30:49,320 --> 00:30:52,160 Speaker 2: of like these kind of warring warlords, there was a 558 00:30:52,240 --> 00:30:56,520 Speaker 2: massive protest campaign by women in Liberia that was I mean, 559 00:30:56,560 --> 00:30:59,120 Speaker 2: it was basically pulled right out of Lisistrata. It was 560 00:30:59,240 --> 00:31:01,720 Speaker 2: we are not going to have sex with our husbands, like, 561 00:31:01,760 --> 00:31:03,000 Speaker 2: we're not going to do it, and it was a 562 00:31:03,120 --> 00:31:05,640 Speaker 2: mass resistance campaign. This has been written about. I know 563 00:31:05,720 --> 00:31:09,240 Speaker 2: it sounds like Lizistrata, but it's a real thing that happened. 564 00:31:09,920 --> 00:31:12,440 Speaker 2: And when they were considering how are we going to 565 00:31:12,480 --> 00:31:15,360 Speaker 2: actually do this, they had to consider some really ugly realities, 566 00:31:15,360 --> 00:31:18,640 Speaker 2: including the reality of rape, and so a factor behind 567 00:31:18,680 --> 00:31:20,760 Speaker 2: the scenes and figuring out how to organize this was 568 00:31:21,120 --> 00:31:23,600 Speaker 2: how are we going to create networks to smuggle women 569 00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:25,920 Speaker 2: out of dangerous homes and keep them safe for the 570 00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:29,960 Speaker 2: length of this protest campaign? Right, and when you're talking 571 00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:32,120 Speaker 2: about what's going to be necessary for a general strike, 572 00:31:32,160 --> 00:31:34,800 Speaker 2: it's a ton of illegalism, right, you know, everything from 573 00:31:34,800 --> 00:31:37,640 Speaker 2: people shoplifting food to stop people from starving, but to 574 00:31:37,680 --> 00:31:41,160 Speaker 2: the very fact that carrying out and participating in a 575 00:31:41,240 --> 00:31:44,360 Speaker 2: general strike, if one gains any momentum, will be declared 576 00:31:44,360 --> 00:31:46,920 Speaker 2: illegal by the regime. They will try to crack down, 577 00:31:46,920 --> 00:31:49,840 Speaker 2: They will arrest ring leaders, they will put people in 578 00:31:49,920 --> 00:31:53,080 Speaker 2: black sites. These are realities that have to be accounted 579 00:31:53,120 --> 00:31:56,240 Speaker 2: for in the underlying planning, and I'm hopeful about the 580 00:31:56,240 --> 00:31:59,600 Speaker 2: potential for something like that in twenty twenty eight. Now 581 00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:02,200 Speaker 2: when it comes the stuff that really scares me. One 582 00:32:02,240 --> 00:32:05,080 Speaker 2: of the things that scares me is what happens if 583 00:32:05,880 --> 00:32:09,400 Speaker 2: we cross the point into which there is no longer 584 00:32:09,480 --> 00:32:13,880 Speaker 2: any hope or talk of peaceful resistance, right. And you 585 00:32:13,960 --> 00:32:15,840 Speaker 2: have to consider this when you have a large number 586 00:32:15,840 --> 00:32:18,040 Speaker 2: of armed men saying we just need to kill all 587 00:32:18,120 --> 00:32:19,600 Speaker 2: of the people who are on the other side of 588 00:32:19,600 --> 00:32:21,600 Speaker 2: this thing which we have in this country right now. 589 00:32:21,640 --> 00:32:24,240 Speaker 2: There's a lot of them. They have weapons, many of 590 00:32:24,280 --> 00:32:26,880 Speaker 2: them are in the police, some of them are in 591 00:32:26,920 --> 00:32:31,240 Speaker 2: the military. These are realities of our present situation. And 592 00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:34,800 Speaker 2: that's scary to me because when you cross that line, 593 00:32:35,240 --> 00:32:38,160 Speaker 2: there's no longer any question of like right or wrong. 594 00:32:38,200 --> 00:32:41,360 Speaker 2: It's just a matter of like what can survive the onslaught? 595 00:32:41,560 --> 00:32:44,280 Speaker 2: And that's I think the thing to try to avoid 596 00:32:44,280 --> 00:32:47,120 Speaker 2: at all costs because any sort of mass internescing conflict 597 00:32:47,120 --> 00:32:49,960 Speaker 2: in the United States among the Americans, it'll kill is 598 00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:53,080 Speaker 2: many people outside of the country because global food systems 599 00:32:53,080 --> 00:32:57,600 Speaker 2: and global medicines supply systems will collapse. Right, So we're 600 00:32:57,600 --> 00:33:00,840 Speaker 2: talking about having governors call out the National Guard against 601 00:33:01,040 --> 00:33:05,080 Speaker 2: federal police forces. When I think about both the necessity 602 00:33:05,080 --> 00:33:07,000 Speaker 2: of that, because you have to try to resist and 603 00:33:07,040 --> 00:33:08,520 Speaker 2: you have to try to make it clear is there 604 00:33:08,560 --> 00:33:13,200 Speaker 2: anyone backing up the people from this federal agency? Is 605 00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:15,000 Speaker 2: there anyone at a state level? Is there any kind 606 00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:17,600 Speaker 2: of resistance that the state is going to respect? You 607 00:33:17,640 --> 00:33:19,920 Speaker 2: have to ask that question, but some of the answers 608 00:33:19,920 --> 00:33:22,120 Speaker 2: to it can take us to really terrifying places. And 609 00:33:22,160 --> 00:33:24,440 Speaker 2: I don't think we can avoid asking the question anymore. 610 00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:26,560 Speaker 2: I don't think we're going to avoid a point at 611 00:33:26,560 --> 00:33:30,760 Speaker 2: which some governor tries something like that, because ICE is 612 00:33:30,800 --> 00:33:34,360 Speaker 2: going to continue grabbing, right, They're going to continue pushing 613 00:33:34,880 --> 00:33:37,280 Speaker 2: what they can do in blue cities. They're not going 614 00:33:37,320 --> 00:33:39,280 Speaker 2: to This is not the extent of the shit they're 615 00:33:39,320 --> 00:33:42,840 Speaker 2: going to try. Sorry, no, you know, and. 616 00:33:42,880 --> 00:33:46,400 Speaker 3: I think it's also particularly terrifying we think of what 617 00:33:46,440 --> 00:33:50,080 Speaker 3: the budgets are behind, you know, that enables this, and 618 00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:52,000 Speaker 3: you know, the budgets that are now. 619 00:33:51,920 --> 00:33:53,960 Speaker 4: About to be voted. I mean we're not just We're 620 00:33:53,960 --> 00:33:54,680 Speaker 4: talking about. 621 00:33:54,480 --> 00:33:58,800 Speaker 3: Billions and billions, eh, and it's just extraordinary. So you know, 622 00:33:59,120 --> 00:34:01,600 Speaker 3: I mean again going back to my experience in South 623 00:34:01,600 --> 00:34:03,959 Speaker 3: Africa and you know, this idea of a general strike, 624 00:34:04,440 --> 00:34:07,600 Speaker 3: you know, what was ultimately the most effective weapon against 625 00:34:07,640 --> 00:34:12,720 Speaker 3: the apartheid regime was mass mobilizing, mass organizing across the country, 626 00:34:13,200 --> 00:34:17,239 Speaker 3: mass marches that actually that quite literally made it was 627 00:34:17,239 --> 00:34:21,680 Speaker 3: a specific campaign to make the country ungovernable, and it 628 00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:24,440 Speaker 3: was on every level. It was consumer boycotts, it was 629 00:34:24,520 --> 00:34:28,640 Speaker 3: mass marches, it was you know, marches specifically targeted at 630 00:34:28,680 --> 00:34:30,759 Speaker 3: the aparthe eight laws that broke the back of the 631 00:34:30,800 --> 00:34:34,800 Speaker 3: apartheight laws. And it was that aided by incredible pressure 632 00:34:35,239 --> 00:34:38,520 Speaker 3: from outside, from outside sanctions. Of course, things are very 633 00:34:38,520 --> 00:34:41,120 Speaker 3: different now. But you know, this does take me to 634 00:34:41,880 --> 00:34:44,440 Speaker 3: another question something that I've thought a lot about is, 635 00:34:44,960 --> 00:34:48,239 Speaker 3: you know, after this whole crisis, after this is over, 636 00:34:48,400 --> 00:34:49,759 Speaker 3: you know, what are the consequences? 637 00:34:49,800 --> 00:34:51,040 Speaker 4: What about accountability? 638 00:34:51,560 --> 00:34:53,400 Speaker 3: You know, when we get to the other side of 639 00:34:53,440 --> 00:34:55,360 Speaker 3: the s which we will, we will get to the 640 00:34:55,440 --> 00:34:58,480 Speaker 3: other side of this. You know, what should that accountability 641 00:34:58,520 --> 00:35:03,160 Speaker 3: look like? American truth and reconciliation campaign? You know, we 642 00:35:03,239 --> 00:35:06,640 Speaker 3: had a truth and reconciliation campaign in South Africa and 643 00:35:06,680 --> 00:35:10,799 Speaker 3: it was extraordinarily healing, but there was no restitution and 644 00:35:10,840 --> 00:35:12,680 Speaker 3: at the end of the day, there was no justice. 645 00:35:12,840 --> 00:35:17,320 Speaker 3: So what was the sort of transformational societal transformational aspect 646 00:35:17,360 --> 00:35:21,040 Speaker 3: of that should we think about an American truth and 647 00:35:21,120 --> 00:35:26,319 Speaker 3: reconciliation campaign? Is it something closer to Nuremberg? You know, 648 00:35:26,400 --> 00:35:30,040 Speaker 3: who gain to be seen as the architects of this 649 00:35:30,640 --> 00:35:33,600 Speaker 3: authoritarian movement? Who going to be seen as the architects 650 00:35:33,600 --> 00:35:37,200 Speaker 3: of this anti authoritarian movement? You know, how do we 651 00:35:37,239 --> 00:35:41,719 Speaker 3: as a democratic country or democratic society, how willing are 652 00:35:41,760 --> 00:35:44,399 Speaker 3: we to go to pursue those consequences? I mean, we've 653 00:35:44,440 --> 00:35:47,360 Speaker 3: just seen how hollow that can be. You know, after 654 00:35:47,520 --> 00:35:51,600 Speaker 3: January sixth, you know how Trump has pardoned the insurrectionists. 655 00:35:52,080 --> 00:35:53,880 Speaker 3: I'd love to hear your thoughts on that. And I 656 00:35:53,960 --> 00:35:56,680 Speaker 3: know we've only got three minutes left before I get 657 00:35:57,160 --> 00:35:58,440 Speaker 3: hold off the stage. 658 00:35:58,880 --> 00:36:01,080 Speaker 2: Well, I mean, I guess I have two answers to that, 659 00:36:01,120 --> 00:36:03,040 Speaker 2: the first would be what do I think is likely 660 00:36:03,080 --> 00:36:05,040 Speaker 2: to happen? And then what should happen. In terms of 661 00:36:05,040 --> 00:36:07,960 Speaker 2: what's likely to happen, I guess the likeliest thing is 662 00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:11,239 Speaker 2: that if we have a Truth and Reconciliation Commission, it's 663 00:36:11,239 --> 00:36:13,720 Speaker 2: something that we kind of have ass and it falls 664 00:36:13,760 --> 00:36:15,840 Speaker 2: way too short, and there's not any kind of criminal 665 00:36:15,840 --> 00:36:18,160 Speaker 2: restitution for the people who are breaking laws and hurting 666 00:36:18,160 --> 00:36:21,799 Speaker 2: and killing people right now. I would say that's a 667 00:36:22,040 --> 00:36:25,240 Speaker 2: likely possibility, just given the way in which this country 668 00:36:25,280 --> 00:36:27,440 Speaker 2: has handled similar things in the past and the ways 669 00:36:27,440 --> 00:36:29,600 Speaker 2: in which other countries have handled similar things in the past. 670 00:36:29,640 --> 00:36:32,319 Speaker 2: Let's not forget the Nuremberg. For all of the things 671 00:36:32,360 --> 00:36:35,080 Speaker 2: about it that were good, was also a failure in 672 00:36:35,120 --> 00:36:37,160 Speaker 2: a lot of ways. Right The vast majority of the 673 00:36:37,280 --> 00:36:40,520 Speaker 2: Nazis who participated directly physically in the Holocaust did not 674 00:36:40,560 --> 00:36:44,040 Speaker 2: see any kind of criminal consequences. So when it comes 675 00:36:44,040 --> 00:36:47,480 Speaker 2: to what I think we should have, I think we 676 00:36:47,560 --> 00:36:50,680 Speaker 2: do need something along the lines of in Nuremberg. And 677 00:36:50,719 --> 00:36:52,680 Speaker 2: I think that if you want to talk about the 678 00:36:52,680 --> 00:36:56,440 Speaker 2: people politically who are committing crimes right now and who 679 00:36:56,480 --> 00:36:58,279 Speaker 2: should be on trial, I think we can all come 680 00:36:58,360 --> 00:37:00,879 Speaker 2: up with a lot of very similar names, and I'm 681 00:37:00,960 --> 00:37:04,840 Speaker 2: very supportive of trying and bringing this regime to justice 682 00:37:04,840 --> 00:37:08,000 Speaker 2: for its current illegal behavior and past illegal behavior. That said, 683 00:37:08,400 --> 00:37:11,640 Speaker 2: I think it's going to be also a failure if 684 00:37:11,680 --> 00:37:16,000 Speaker 2: we do not extend any attempt at criminal consequences, at 685 00:37:16,040 --> 00:37:18,600 Speaker 2: retribution at justice. I guess would be the better term 686 00:37:19,040 --> 00:37:21,920 Speaker 2: to a group of people who have underlined all of 687 00:37:21,920 --> 00:37:24,359 Speaker 2: the negative societal changes that are happening right now, which 688 00:37:24,400 --> 00:37:26,480 Speaker 2: is the people who run all of the major social 689 00:37:26,520 --> 00:37:29,200 Speaker 2: media corporations in the world, all of whom are deeply 690 00:37:29,280 --> 00:37:33,720 Speaker 2: complicit and not just our authoritarian slide, but in direct violence. 691 00:37:33,760 --> 00:37:35,840 Speaker 2: Facebook knew for a fact that the military of Me 692 00:37:35,960 --> 00:37:39,319 Speaker 2: ANDMAR was using their website to spread propaganda to help 693 00:37:39,440 --> 00:37:43,000 Speaker 2: further in ethnic cleansing, and they made the choice basically 694 00:37:43,080 --> 00:37:45,080 Speaker 2: to sit with that because it made the money, you know, 695 00:37:45,160 --> 00:37:47,840 Speaker 2: And that sort of thing should be seen as just 696 00:37:47,920 --> 00:37:49,799 Speaker 2: as illegal as a bunch of ice agents without a 697 00:37:49,880 --> 00:37:53,440 Speaker 2: warrant busting into somebody's house with guns, you know. So 698 00:37:53,960 --> 00:37:56,840 Speaker 2: that's where I stand. I'm on a we didn't go 699 00:37:56,960 --> 00:37:59,400 Speaker 2: nearly far enough after the Civil War either kind of 700 00:37:59,480 --> 00:38:01,680 Speaker 2: kick right now out, but we don't need to go 701 00:38:01,719 --> 00:38:02,239 Speaker 2: into that. 702 00:38:02,960 --> 00:38:06,000 Speaker 3: We've come to the end of our time. Unfortunately, you 703 00:38:06,000 --> 00:38:10,200 Speaker 3: know I could continue. I've got you know, seven seven 704 00:38:10,280 --> 00:38:12,319 Speaker 3: questions that I would have loved to have asked you, 705 00:38:12,880 --> 00:38:15,359 Speaker 3: but we don't have time. But you know, Robert, I 706 00:38:15,400 --> 00:38:19,280 Speaker 3: can't thank you enough for coming, for being with us, 707 00:38:19,480 --> 00:38:23,799 Speaker 3: for sharing your thoughts, and you know, traveling all the 708 00:38:23,840 --> 00:38:27,720 Speaker 3: way from Portland, and you know, I'm so sorry about 709 00:38:27,760 --> 00:38:30,279 Speaker 3: the hundred times that you've been to your guest. You know, 710 00:38:30,360 --> 00:38:32,879 Speaker 3: I've been to your guest many many times in my life, 711 00:38:32,880 --> 00:38:34,240 Speaker 3: but it's definitely not one hundred. 712 00:38:34,320 --> 00:38:35,640 Speaker 2: Oh there's a lot of people got to your guests 713 00:38:35,680 --> 00:38:39,360 Speaker 2: more than me, and Bortland's huh well and elsewhere. 714 00:38:39,560 --> 00:38:42,080 Speaker 3: Thank you, thank you so much, and thank you all 715 00:38:42,160 --> 00:38:43,120 Speaker 3: for bearing with us. 716 00:38:44,640 --> 00:38:49,879 Speaker 1: Than It Could Happen Here is a production of cool 717 00:38:49,960 --> 00:38:53,120 Speaker 1: Zone Media. For more podcasts from caol Zone Media, visit 718 00:38:53,120 --> 00:38:56,160 Speaker 1: our website caols onmedia dot com, or check us out 719 00:38:56,200 --> 00:38:59,600 Speaker 1: on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen 720 00:38:59,640 --> 00:39:02,120 Speaker 1: to part us. You can now find sources for It 721 00:39:02,120 --> 00:39:05,680 Speaker 1: Could Happen here listed directly in episode descriptions. Thanks for listening.