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Speaker 1: Body Doors with Joseph Scott More. The name Avon is

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Speaker 1: a curious name. I think that probably most folks, particularly

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Speaker 1: my generation, think of Avon to think of, let's see,

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Speaker 1: what's the old commercial Avon lady calling and bringing cosmetics

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Speaker 1: to the door of a home, which is kind of

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Speaker 1: interesting to say the least. I think Avon is still

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Speaker 1: a thing. I actually think it's like a multi national

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Speaker 1: company that's still based in London. But you know, the

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Speaker 1: origin of the name Avon is kind of fascinating. Avon

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Speaker 1: actually is a descriptor of a river. It's the name

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Speaker 1: of a river in south southwest England. And as a

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Speaker 1: matter of fact, someone very famous is associated with that

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Speaker 1: region and living in proximity to that river, and that

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Speaker 1: would be William Shakespeare. As a matter of fact, every

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Speaker 1: now and then he is actually referred to as the

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Speaker 1: Bard of Avon. But today we're going to talk about

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Speaker 1: another location that also carries the same moniker, only this

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Speaker 1: is not the Avon River. It's Avon Avenue in southwest Atlanta,

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Speaker 1: and we're going to be talking about a case involving

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Speaker 1: a young mother who has been dead now since nineteen

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Speaker 1: ninety nine. And finally, an arrest has been made in

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Speaker 1: her case. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is body backs.

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Speaker 1: As I have stated in the past, Dave, uh, I

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Speaker 1: count myself as a New Orleanian, spent parts of my

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Speaker 1: life there, ever since I was an infant, then into

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Speaker 1: young adulthood. Been down. Still go home. I call it home.

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Speaker 1: And you know, the world of New Orleans is actually dictated,

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Speaker 1: I think geographically, at least by water. You've got the

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Speaker 1: Mississippi River. Obviously that kind of cuts its way, you know,

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Speaker 1: through the city and literally divides Metro Metro New Orleans,

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Speaker 1: restating in three two, dividing tro New Orleans into two halves.

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Speaker 1: Some people refer to it as the East Bank in

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Speaker 1: the West Bank, which is not accurate because the river

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Speaker 1: turns there, so it's technically the north bank and the

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Speaker 1: South bank. But who am I to state otherwise. And

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Speaker 1: of course you have a Lake Poncha Train that is

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Speaker 1: literally on the north side of New Orleans. And then

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Speaker 1: of course you've got the Gulf of Mexico to the south.

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Speaker 1: But unlike New Orleans, Dave, Atlanta is a curious place.

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Speaker 1: Did you know Atlanta really doesn't have a river that

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Speaker 1: dictated how the city was going to be laid out.

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Speaker 1: The Chattahoochie River is there, and when we were kids,

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Speaker 1: people used to talk about shooting the hooch. They'd go

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Speaker 1: down the hooch the Chattahoochee River and rafts and they

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Speaker 1: were drinking and all that stuff. But it didn't really

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Speaker 1: dictate how the city was lan laid out. It was

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Speaker 1: laid out out as a train city. Actually, did you

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Speaker 1: know that one of the original names of Atlanta was

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Speaker 1: called Terminus, and Terminus means literally the end of the line.

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Speaker 1: It terminates there, And by virtue of that, having been

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Speaker 1: an investigator in both New Orleans and in Atlanta, there's

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Speaker 1: some logic to the way New Orleans is laid out.

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Speaker 1: If you know where the river is, if you know

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Speaker 1: where the lake is, you can pretty much get there.

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Speaker 1: It's laid out in grids. I've often said that Atlanta

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Speaker 1: seems like somebody on acid laid out the streets there,

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Speaker 1: because you'll have a street that comes to a sudden end,

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Speaker 1: and it won't pick up for another mile and a

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Speaker 1: half perhaps, and it'll have the same name and they

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Speaker 1: switch back on one another. It's the most curious thing.

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Speaker 2: I've always thought of Atlanta as a conglomeration of a

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Speaker 2: bunch of small towns that kept growing out until they

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Speaker 2: fed into one another. And that's why it's like that.

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Speaker 2: It's not like there's one city like in New Orleans,

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Speaker 2: where you know, you've got a lot of history and

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Speaker 2: you've got a port. In Atlanta, you're landlocked, and you

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Speaker 2: have a bunch of small communities that just spread out

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Speaker 2: and became a big one, which is why it is

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Speaker 2: so difficult talking about roads in particular. You mentioned Avon

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Speaker 2: right off the bat, and when we were first talking

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Speaker 2: about this story about Melissa Wolfenberger, you mentioned Avon Road.

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Speaker 2: You mentioned the road, and I started thinking, do I

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Speaker 2: have to put makeup on to go for a ride?

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Speaker 2: And then I went, wait a minute, I remember something

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Speaker 2: about this, and it was just one of those things

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Speaker 2: where you're going, why why do we know about that?

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Speaker 2: It's because this case boggles the mind of how it

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Speaker 2: possibly was not dealt with and solved sooner than it

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Speaker 2: actually was. We're doing the story because there has finally

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Speaker 2: been an arrest in a story that, to be honest

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Speaker 2: with you, Joe, if you find a skull in the

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Speaker 2: street and you have a woman missing and her husband

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Speaker 2: works in that building right over there. I'm guessing maybe

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Speaker 2: somebody ought to test it. I'm just saying maybe testing

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Speaker 2: the bones. Uh we did even in ninety nine we

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Speaker 2: had DNA, right, Was there not a way that they

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Speaker 2: could look at the at the skull? Oh wait a minute,

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Speaker 2: Wait a minute. He she was not reported missing? Was she?

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Speaker 2: We have a missing mother of two who's not been

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Speaker 2: reported missing by her husband.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, but here here's where you uh what what's what's

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Speaker 1: the term they use in uh in writing? You lose

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Speaker 1: the plot at this point in time, and boy, you

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Speaker 1: you set a mouthful there. Brother that not reported and misidentified? Okay,

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Speaker 1: now full Hey wait, I gotta, I gotta, I gotta

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Speaker 1: tell I gotta tell our friends here full disclosure. Uh.

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Speaker 1: My office at the time was the Full County Medical

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Speaker 1: Examiner's Office. I worked there during the period of time

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Speaker 1: when Melissa's case occurred. This was not my case. It

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Speaker 1: was former Oh yeah, yeah, Avon Avon Avenue, which I'm

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Speaker 1: very familiar with. I worked over my career in Atlanta.

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Speaker 1: I worked a ton of cases, and they weren't all homicides.

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Speaker 1: You had a variety of cases that but I spent

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Speaker 1: a lot of time. It's kind of a it's kind

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Speaker 1: of a medium thoroughfare. You know, there's bus stops like

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Speaker 1: every block, so it's got it's it's heavily trafficked you know,

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Speaker 1: through there. But again, Avon is one of those locations.

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Speaker 1: And I didn't just randomly think this up. Avon is

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Speaker 1: one of these places where it's in southwest Atlanta. So

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Speaker 1: it's it's down from like the heart of Atlanta where

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Speaker 1: like Olympic Park is and all that stuff and the

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Speaker 1: old CNN building, Coca Cola, World of Coke and all that.

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Speaker 1: It's southwest, like really southwest Atlanta. It's in the city limits.

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Speaker 1: And David, it's one of these streets that literally runs

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Speaker 1: east and west and guess what, all of a sudden,

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Speaker 1: it runs directly into a major railhead.

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Speaker 2: And it stops terminus.

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Speaker 1: Then yeah, terminus, and then you cross over this these

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Speaker 1: rail lines and there's multiple rail lines. You've got Marta

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Speaker 1: that runs through there. I think there's probably uh, you know,

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Speaker 1: the the regular you know train tracks that go through

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Speaker 1: there that convey everything from people to you know, to cargo.

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Speaker 1: And then all of a sudden, about half a mile away,

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Speaker 1: Avon picks up again. And if you can you imagine

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Speaker 1: this back back in those days, and I know a

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Speaker 1: lot of people will identify with this. We didn't have

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Speaker 1: Google Maps or anything. We used map books and all

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Speaker 1: of our vehicles at the m's office, we had a

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Speaker 1: big map book that we would flip to, and even

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Speaker 1: that wouldn't help sometimes because you couldn't tell where these

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Speaker 1: goofy roads started and ended. And Melissa's case actually happened

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Speaker 1: on the more easterly end of Avon, It wasn't back

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Speaker 1: toward the more residential area that's on the other side

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Speaker 1: of the train track, so this is more in an

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Speaker 1: industrial area. And right you were you mentioned that her

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Speaker 1: husband at the time of her disappearance actually worked at

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Speaker 1: a glass company that was immediately adjacent I mean like

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Speaker 1: right there, right there, you know, adjacent to where this

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Speaker 1: head is actually found lying in the road on Avon. Dave.

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Speaker 2: The scary part about all of this is that Melissa

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Speaker 2: Wolfenberger and Christopher Wolfenburger met when they were in high school,

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Speaker 2: and he was kind of the bad boy, and she

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Speaker 2: was smitten with the bad boy. They hook up in

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Speaker 2: high school, they get married shortly after, they have two children,

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Speaker 2: and they actually they're from outside of Atlanta. They're not

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Speaker 2: from the Atlanta metrary, living in a rural area, and

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Speaker 2: they move, Christopher moves her to get her away from

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Speaker 2: her family. Is what it seems like to me. Everything

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Speaker 2: I've been able to find out, Joe, is that as

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Speaker 2: Christopher Wolfenberger was able to pull Melissa away from her family.

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Speaker 2: She was young when they got married, and married right

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Speaker 2: out of high school. She's twenty one and has two children,

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Speaker 2: and Christopher has separated her. You know, she used to

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Speaker 2: have a lot of contact with her family. In over

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Speaker 2: a couple of years, it slows to a trickle. They

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Speaker 2: don't see her that often, but they do talk. And

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Speaker 2: she works at a waffle house sometimes with her older sister.

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Speaker 2: And nothing permanent, nothing full time, just something she would

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Speaker 2: fill in and make a few extra bucks. But Christopher

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Speaker 2: has cut her off. She does not have a car.

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Speaker 2: She doesn't have anything of her own, no phone, no cars,

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Speaker 2: no motor lights, you know, like Gilligan's Island without the fun.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: And she does go home on Christmas. On Thanksgiving in

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Speaker 2: nineteen ninety eight, and she makes a request about a

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Speaker 2: very special gift she wants for Christmas is a picture

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Speaker 2: of her grandfather yes, it's very special to her, and

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Speaker 2: that's what she wants for Christmas. That's the kind of

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Speaker 2: thing you remember, you know, when somebody asks for something

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Speaker 2: that's so personal and so important to them. And we'll

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Speaker 2: be back in a couple of weeks, and I'd like

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Speaker 2: to have that. She doesn't make it back for Christmas,

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Speaker 2: Joe after making that request of the picture for her grandfather. Nope,

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Speaker 2: she doesn't show up. Matter of fact, there's no call

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Speaker 2: on Christmas. There's no nothing. Melissa's gone. Mother's Day, rolls

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Speaker 2: around in May, haven't heard from her. It's five months later.

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Speaker 2: She doesn't make the call on Mother's Day, doesn't call

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Speaker 2: her mom. Now they don't have the closest to families. Okay,

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Speaker 2: this is a disjointed family. Actually, we could do a

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Speaker 2: body Bags episode on her dad. Yep, a serial killer

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Speaker 2: named Carl Patten. Look it up. Well, not a serial killer.

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Speaker 2: He killed five people. So what do you call that?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that's a serial killer. I think I think

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Speaker 1: the classification now is three or more. Okay, and so yeah,

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Speaker 1: he fits the description. I hate the way the paper

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Speaker 1: addresses this or or makes reference to it, because they

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Speaker 1: say they don't identify this as a serial killer's victims.

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Speaker 1: They refer to the bodies as serial killings, and it's

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Speaker 1: a it's a weird way, you know that they refer

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Speaker 1: to this. But yeah, so yeah, So if you've killed

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Speaker 1: three or more, okay, you're in the atmosphere of serial

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Speaker 1: killer here.

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Speaker 2: Okay. So Melissa's dad, Carl was a murderer. Her mother

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Speaker 2: was involved in the last killings that he did, involved

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Speaker 2: it after the fact. So Melissa and her older sister

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Speaker 2: both are born into a family with the father of

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Speaker 2: a murderer. So it's odd that you go forward her

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Speaker 2: life after high school after being taken away by Christopher,

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Speaker 2: separated from her family. He's now separated her from the herd.

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Speaker 2: It's such a controlling thing. And I tell women this

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Speaker 2: all the time. This is the youth pastor in me.

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Speaker 2: If you're dating a guy, yeah, and or a girl,

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Speaker 2: and everything that person does is to pull the wall

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Speaker 2: between you and your family, there's something wrong.

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Speaker 1: Yep.

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Speaker 2: Doesn't mean they're bad evil, It just means that's not

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Speaker 2: a good relationship. Because a healthy relationship incorporates others. It

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Speaker 2: does not build an island with walls around it. You

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Speaker 2: don't live on Alcatraz. Man not in America anyway.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, and that's I think that that's an indication

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Speaker 1: of kind of the indwelling, I don't know, for lack

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Speaker 1: of a better term, kind of rot that existed. And

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Speaker 1: you know what, Dave, I think that retrospectively, looking back,

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Speaker 1: I think at least that when you get somebody, when

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Speaker 1: you get somebody that you can isolate, that you can

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Speaker 1: take away their means to take care of themselves, to

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Speaker 1: move about, to realize who they are as now a

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Speaker 1: parent and a wife and those sorts of things. I

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Speaker 1: think it's actually easier to destroy them, I think now.

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Speaker 1: I don't know if this works for you, Dave. I

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Speaker 1: think now for me, I look forward to Christmas now

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Speaker 1: more than I did when I was a kid. It's

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Speaker 1: because the grand babies I love. There's just I don't know,

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Speaker 1: there's something about it. I don't know. If that happens

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Speaker 1: with you, it's become more important. I think for me,

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Speaker 1: are you really now? I think that if if you

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Speaker 1: and I could have a conversation with our eight year

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Speaker 1: old selves, they probably debate that, man, But yeah, you know,

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Speaker 1: for me, I can't imagine not being able to talk,

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Speaker 1: you know, to my wife, to Kim, you know, and

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Speaker 1: to Noah, my son and my daughter and my grandbabies. Man,

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Speaker 1: I can't imagine that. And you use the term island

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Speaker 1: a moment ago, that's a god, that's a that's a

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Speaker 1: horrible image when you think.

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Speaker 2: An island without a dock at the island where there

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Speaker 2: is no visitors. And April twenty ninth, nineteen ninety nine,

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Speaker 2: a skull is found. Melissa Wilfenberger is not reported missing.

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Speaker 2: At this point. When the skull is found, her family

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Speaker 2: hasn't even realized they haven't seen her in a while

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Speaker 2: yet that that's coming, but not yet. So on this

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Speaker 2: road you were talking about earlier, Yeah, a skull, how

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Speaker 2: is it found, Joe? Is it like they were sitting

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Speaker 2: in there with a candle in it like a Halloween.

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Speaker 1: No, no, no, no, no, nothing like that. It was

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Speaker 1: actually a worker. And this happens a lot. I'll have

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Speaker 1: these little moments. Stay when I'm going down the road

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Speaker 1: and I'll see like bags sitting on the side of

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Speaker 1: the road. I know that this probably doesn't happen to

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Speaker 1: you to the degree it does to me, but I'll

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Speaker 1: see like discarded items laying on the side of the road,

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Speaker 1: and it will automatically cause me to flashback to events

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Speaker 1: that I had, you know, as an investigator, where you

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Speaker 1: it would send a chill down most people's spawn when

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Speaker 1: they if they could look in some of the bags

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Speaker 1: that I've seen over the years, and it's not me.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I'm used, I was used to doing it.

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Speaker 1: Can you imagine being a worker, You're doing an entirely

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Speaker 1: different profession, and you happen to come across a bag

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Speaker 1: and you opened a bag up and there is a

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Speaker 1: human skull and it's not just like a skull, a

261
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Speaker 1: completely skeletonized item. There's enough tissue there to appreciate that

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Speaker 1: there was hair. Yeah, and they actually this is one

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Speaker 1: of the problems that arose in this case because they

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Speaker 1: refer to the short cropped hair that was left behind,

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Speaker 1: almost like stubble. And you know, we can make certain

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Speaker 1: I think that we can make certain intellectual leaps. You know,

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Speaker 1: as people, we make assumptions based upon if we just see,

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Speaker 1: like if you're standing behind somebody in a line, for instance,

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Speaker 1: and you see that they've got short cropped hair, well,

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Speaker 1: automatically your mind flashes to it's got to be a dude,

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Speaker 1: right right. It's not always accurate. And if you've if

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Speaker 1: you're absent facial features where you have tissue that is

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Speaker 1: no longer covering the face and you're gone down to

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Speaker 1: a skeletal level on certain areas of the skull. These

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Speaker 1: suppositions take on a life of their own. And that's

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Speaker 1: you know what they say about assume. Oh wait a minute,

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Speaker 1: that's that's actually what had occurred.

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Speaker 2: Regularly, Joshmo. Yeah, on Avon Dry Road, Avenue Road.

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Speaker 1: It's Avenue Avenue.

280
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Speaker 2: On Avon Avenue. Yeah, sees a bag in the road

281
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Speaker 2: and opens it up, which, to be honest with you,

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Speaker 2: after doing this show with you, yeah, I and opening bags, I'm.

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Speaker 1: Not I wouldn't advise it if.

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Speaker 2: There's a bag on the side of the road unless

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Speaker 2: I see hundred dollars bills pouring out the side. They

286
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Speaker 2: don't have blown in open.

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Speaker 1: Beware. You know what they say about cats and curiosity,

288
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Speaker 1: So I would yeah, approach with care moly, Yeah, because

289
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Speaker 1: you never know what's going to be contained. And you know, Dave,

290
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Speaker 1: I've had events where over the course of my career

291
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Speaker 1: where I've had people that when I arrived at the scene,

292
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Speaker 1: I've actually seen people seated on the ground with their

293
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Speaker 1: knees pulled into their chest, shaking and weeping because they

294
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Speaker 1: and I can look at them, and I'll know because

295
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Speaker 1: we classify these people, it seems as and I'll spell

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Speaker 1: it out as the FI N D E R. They

297
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Speaker 1: are the finder, and we will note that in our

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Speaker 1: reports that this individual is the finder. And the thing

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Speaker 1: about it is this, It's not like this individual found

300
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Speaker 1: a dead body hold onto the soft That's not what

301
00:20:04,600 --> 00:20:09,679
Speaker 1: he came up with. This poor man found a head

302
00:20:11,880 --> 00:20:16,000
Speaker 1: in a bag. So not only are you dealing with

303
00:20:16,080 --> 00:20:20,520
Speaker 1: the dead, now you're dealing in your mind with a

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Speaker 1: decapitation that just kind of ups it. Do you see

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Speaker 1: what I'm saying here?

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Speaker 2: Yes, I'm still stuck on the I for some other reason, Joe.

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Speaker 2: When I was thinking about a skull being found in

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Speaker 2: a bag, I'm thinking about a skull that is skeletonized,

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Speaker 2: and I'm not even sure if it's a real skull.

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Speaker 2: But now you're saying that not only was it a

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Speaker 2: skull that had skin still on it, it's got enough

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Speaker 2: hair to see that some of it's stubble, which makes

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Speaker 2: me think, I don't know where I thought this, Probably

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Speaker 2: from a cartoon. I thought hair and fingernails continued to

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Speaker 2: grow after we died.

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Speaker 1: To a minimum, really minimal amount. Yeah, it's you know,

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Speaker 1: they try to make it sound like, you know, people

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Speaker 1: arrived from the dead and their fingernails or you know,

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Speaker 1: Firey Long or yeah Howard, and that's really just not

320
00:21:10,640 --> 00:21:14,720
Speaker 1: the case. Yeah. But but in this in this case,

321
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Speaker 1: the problem that you have here is this bag is

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Speaker 1: torn open. It's not torn open by him and already yeah,

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Speaker 1: it was torn when he found it, and it's lying

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Speaker 1: kind of tore the shoulder toward a grate in the

325
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Speaker 1: road like a drainage. Great, and you can draw any

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00:21:32,400 --> 00:21:35,040
Speaker 1: kind of conclusion from that, you know. One of the

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Speaker 1: things that I that when I and I have to

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Speaker 1: big shout out uh to to mat to is Cheryl

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Speaker 1: McCollum here Zone seven, Zone seven Podcasts. By the way,

330
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Speaker 1: she has taken the lead in this case the Cold

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Speaker 1: Case Institute. She is a marvel uh and she has

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Speaker 1: followed Melissa's case loath these many years and is one

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Speaker 1: of the big reasons that thing came to a conclusion.

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00:22:03,119 --> 00:22:07,840
Speaker 1: The the thing about it is this, when when Cheryl

335
00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:12,480
Speaker 1: presented me with this case, my initial thought was, you've

336
00:22:12,480 --> 00:22:15,800
Speaker 1: got a dismembered body, and this does happen. We've actually

337
00:22:15,800 --> 00:22:19,720
Speaker 1: covered these kind of cases, my friend, where you're thinking, Okay,

338
00:22:19,760 --> 00:22:25,439
Speaker 1: somebody has wrapped a body up and after dismemberment, and

339
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Speaker 1: they are essentially depositing the body in a variety of

340
00:22:29,560 --> 00:22:32,760
Speaker 1: different you know, all over the place. Yeah, that's not

341
00:22:32,800 --> 00:22:36,240
Speaker 1: what happened here. I don't think what I think happened.

342
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Speaker 1: And the reason the bag was torn my money, and

343
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Speaker 1: I don't know if there's necessarily any way to prove this.

344
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Speaker 1: I think a dog got the back. I think that

345
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Speaker 1: a dog got the bag. The smell that was emanating

346
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Speaker 1: from the bag is just it's it's it's irresistible to animals.

347
00:22:58,480 --> 00:23:02,640
Speaker 1: They can't it. They have to go and inspect. It's

348
00:23:02,800 --> 00:23:06,639
Speaker 1: part of their primal nature. I think that dog, and

349
00:23:06,680 --> 00:23:12,359
Speaker 1: this plays into it. If my theory is right, I

350
00:23:12,400 --> 00:23:15,360
Speaker 1: think the dog grabbed the bag and tried to tear

351
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Speaker 1: it and got to the road and maybe a car

352
00:23:18,880 --> 00:23:22,240
Speaker 1: was approaching or something and frightened the dog and the

353
00:23:22,280 --> 00:23:28,040
Speaker 1: dog ran away, and that portion of the remain was

354
00:23:28,680 --> 00:23:32,000
Speaker 1: remained there. It was left there. Hence the bag is

355
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Speaker 1: being torn open. I don't necessarily think that this is

356
00:23:36,600 --> 00:23:39,399
Speaker 1: a matter of somebody rolling down a windows they're driving

357
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Speaker 1: down and throwing on avenue and just tossing it out.

358
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Speaker 1: I don't believe that, all.

359
00:23:44,280 --> 00:23:50,960
Speaker 2: Right, Well, when a skull is found in an area

360
00:23:51,080 --> 00:23:53,479
Speaker 2: like this, which is classified as an industrial area, there

361
00:23:53,520 --> 00:23:57,080
Speaker 2: are businesses around it, I would think, and I'm obviously wrong,

362
00:23:57,119 --> 00:23:59,560
Speaker 2: but I would think that you would find out where

363
00:23:59,600 --> 00:24:01,720
Speaker 2: it was a skull found, where was the bag when

364
00:24:01,760 --> 00:24:04,439
Speaker 2: you found it. Let's get a marker or something, spray

365
00:24:04,480 --> 00:24:06,800
Speaker 2: paint and mark the spot with an X. Okay, this

366
00:24:06,880 --> 00:24:09,200
Speaker 2: is where it was, right, And now let's from here.

367
00:24:09,359 --> 00:24:12,520
Speaker 2: Let's spread out and let's do a grid searge of

368
00:24:12,760 --> 00:24:16,560
Speaker 2: all the area around here, and let's talk to every business,

369
00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:19,320
Speaker 2: find out if there's any kind of cameras, any kind

370
00:24:19,359 --> 00:24:22,679
Speaker 2: of security. Let's map the road, who's driving along this

371
00:24:22,800 --> 00:24:25,359
Speaker 2: road on a regular basis, and let's see if we

372
00:24:25,400 --> 00:24:28,320
Speaker 2: can figure out how did this skull come to be here?

373
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Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, for me, And you know, I can't. I

374
00:24:32,520 --> 00:24:35,000
Speaker 1: can't get into the minds of the investigators at that

375
00:24:35,040 --> 00:24:38,640
Speaker 1: particular time that were there, on that specific date back

376
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Speaker 1: in ninety nine, how they didn't do that. That's my

377
00:24:42,440 --> 00:24:48,520
Speaker 1: problem with this, because because if they had taken time.

378
00:24:48,680 --> 00:24:50,560
Speaker 1: And this is the kind of thing. And let me

379
00:24:50,560 --> 00:24:53,520
Speaker 1: tell you this, and I've worked these kind of cases

380
00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:57,360
Speaker 1: where this is what you do if you have an

381
00:24:57,400 --> 00:25:01,639
Speaker 1: element of a body, particularly what you leave to be ahead. Okay,

382
00:25:01,800 --> 00:25:06,320
Speaker 1: we're not talking about some random bone that is probably bovine,

383
00:25:06,800 --> 00:25:09,480
Speaker 1: you know, a cow, or maybe a hog bone, or

384
00:25:09,720 --> 00:25:12,720
Speaker 1: we're talking about a human skull. You know what you do.

385
00:25:13,440 --> 00:25:16,240
Speaker 1: You get a couple of buses and you drive out

386
00:25:16,320 --> 00:25:21,720
Speaker 1: to the police academy and you grab every cadet that

387
00:25:21,880 --> 00:25:24,159
Speaker 1: is currently in training and say we're going out for

388
00:25:24,280 --> 00:25:27,600
Speaker 1: some real world experience. Here, cadets. You load them up

389
00:25:27,640 --> 00:25:30,159
Speaker 1: on the truck and you give them very x you

390
00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:34,199
Speaker 1: give them very specific direction. We're going to line up

391
00:25:34,240 --> 00:25:39,000
Speaker 1: shoulder to shoulder, and we're going to march in a

392
00:25:39,119 --> 00:25:42,520
Speaker 1: straight line in this direction, then that direction, and this.

393
00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:49,159
Speaker 1: Nothing like that occurred. And you know, I think I

394
00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:53,359
Speaker 1: would think that there would be there may have been

395
00:25:54,040 --> 00:25:59,159
Speaker 1: a quicker resolution because Dave, here's the problem. When Melissa's

396
00:25:59,200 --> 00:26:06,880
Speaker 1: skull was taken back to the medical examiner's office, they

397
00:26:07,080 --> 00:26:15,480
Speaker 1: really didn't know what they had. There was no appreciable

398
00:26:16,040 --> 00:26:19,960
Speaker 1: trauma necessarily that they could come up with.

399
00:26:19,840 --> 00:26:21,879
Speaker 2: What do you mean by that by appreciable trauma?

400
00:26:21,960 --> 00:26:25,640
Speaker 1: Joah, Well, the side of the head is not blown out, okay,

401
00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:28,880
Speaker 1: Or you don't have a depressed skull fracture, something that

402
00:26:28,920 --> 00:26:33,000
Speaker 1: you can look at say definitively, this is going to be.

403
00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:34,000
Speaker 2: The cause of day.

404
00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:38,480
Speaker 1: That's a problem because you need the rest of the

405
00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:40,479
Speaker 1: elements of the body to help you out. And not

406
00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:42,679
Speaker 1: only do you need the rest of the elements to

407
00:26:42,720 --> 00:26:48,359
Speaker 1: help you out, Dave, it helps in the identification. And

408
00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:53,359
Speaker 1: here's the problem, David. You know, Dave. Once Melissa's skull

409
00:26:54,280 --> 00:26:57,360
Speaker 1: made it back to the Medical Examiner's office in Atlanta,

410
00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:04,520
Speaker 1: they were still trying to determine who this was. As

411
00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:09,720
Speaker 1: a matter of fact, they didn't even know if this

412
00:27:09,840 --> 00:27:14,639
Speaker 1: was a male or female. It was at that moment,

413
00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:22,160
Speaker 1: Tom that Melissa's gull was sent to the University of Tennessee,

414
00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:40,760
Speaker 1: otherwise known as the Body Form. Be very careful, I

415
00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:49,280
Speaker 1: always say, in putting your faith in its totality in

416
00:27:49,359 --> 00:27:54,600
Speaker 1: one person or one organization, just simply based upon how

417
00:27:54,680 --> 00:27:57,760
Speaker 1: much ink has been splashed about them over the years,

418
00:27:57,800 --> 00:28:04,160
Speaker 1: either in books or movies or news. I've got great

419
00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:07,720
Speaker 1: friends over the course of my career that have worked

420
00:28:07,840 --> 00:28:10,000
Speaker 1: at UT, have worked at the Body Farm that have

421
00:28:10,040 --> 00:28:12,879
Speaker 1: done their graduate work there, and I've got friends that

422
00:28:12,960 --> 00:28:16,399
Speaker 1: have attended courses there. I have students that go up there.

423
00:28:16,760 --> 00:28:21,280
Speaker 1: But in this one instance, Dave, there's a major problem

424
00:28:21,760 --> 00:28:25,520
Speaker 1: because in nineteen ninety nine, remember we have a skull

425
00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:32,360
Speaker 1: that we're talking about here singularly, they sent Melissa's skull

426
00:28:33,280 --> 00:28:36,360
Speaker 1: to UT to this place that we've all heard of,

427
00:28:36,400 --> 00:28:41,280
Speaker 1: the great doctor Bass, who I'm a big fan of,

428
00:28:41,360 --> 00:28:47,800
Speaker 1: by the way, and Dave, they misidentified the skull in

429
00:28:48,040 --> 00:28:53,600
Speaker 1: what we call the sexing of a skull. They identified

430
00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:58,640
Speaker 1: the skull as a male skull. And that's hard to

431
00:28:58,680 --> 00:29:04,360
Speaker 1: believe when you consider how many how many skeletal remains

432
00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:07,360
Speaker 1: they examine. Because there is the body Farm, the body Farm,

433
00:29:07,400 --> 00:29:13,640
Speaker 1: there is a research arm of the Anthropolt Physical Anthropology Department.

434
00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:16,920
Speaker 1: They study how bodies decay there, at the rates that

435
00:29:16,960 --> 00:29:19,640
Speaker 1: they decay, and they do all kinds of experiments and

436
00:29:19,760 --> 00:29:22,360
Speaker 1: studies and that sort of thing. But they also have

437
00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:26,920
Speaker 1: another element there where they send out teams of forensic

438
00:29:26,960 --> 00:29:30,080
Speaker 1: anthropologists to look at specimens or specimens will come into

439
00:29:30,120 --> 00:29:33,560
Speaker 1: them in active cases. Melissa's was an active case and

440
00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:36,239
Speaker 1: they asked for an opinion on her case, and they

441
00:29:36,280 --> 00:29:37,960
Speaker 1: identified the skull as a male Dave.

442
00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:41,400
Speaker 2: I can't figure out how that's even possible at this

443
00:29:41,480 --> 00:29:44,960
Speaker 2: stage of the game. But that was twenty five years

444
00:29:44,960 --> 00:29:47,800
Speaker 2: ago from where we are today, and I'm thinking, I

445
00:29:47,880 --> 00:29:49,880
Speaker 2: know that there were pretty big leaps and bounds in

446
00:29:50,000 --> 00:29:54,240
Speaker 2: DNA technology between oj Simpson's trial and what ninety five

447
00:29:54,400 --> 00:30:00,000
Speaker 2: ninety six to by ninety nine, So okay, I guess

448
00:30:00,320 --> 00:30:02,720
Speaker 2: they were looking at the stubble hair and thinking this

449
00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:04,920
Speaker 2: has got to be a dude's hair, but they were wrong.

450
00:30:04,960 --> 00:30:06,920
Speaker 2: But here's the other part that bothers me, Joe, is

451
00:30:06,920 --> 00:30:09,120
Speaker 2: that we're dealing with a skull that was found. They're

452
00:30:09,160 --> 00:30:12,880
Speaker 2: trying to identify anything they can about this skull. Meanwhile

453
00:30:13,960 --> 00:30:18,440
Speaker 2: they find other body parts start showing up, arms and legs.

454
00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:22,120
Speaker 2: April twenty ninth. The skull is found June third Yep,

455
00:30:22,480 --> 00:30:25,160
Speaker 2: not that much longer. We're dealing with, you know, last

456
00:30:25,240 --> 00:30:29,320
Speaker 2: days of April, third day of June. Yep. Really a

457
00:30:29,360 --> 00:30:30,440
Speaker 2: little over a month.

458
00:30:30,440 --> 00:30:32,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, not too far, not too far down the tracks

459
00:30:32,880 --> 00:30:37,080
Speaker 1: and these elements that they found. First off, there's a

460
00:30:37,080 --> 00:30:39,760
Speaker 1: big part that you didn't mention, and I know the

461
00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:45,760
Speaker 1: reason you didn't mention it because arms, legs, head, no torso. Yeah,

462
00:30:46,240 --> 00:30:51,200
Speaker 1: and that's in a dismemberment case, that's the most difficult

463
00:30:52,160 --> 00:30:55,800
Speaker 1: element of the body to get rid of. It's the messiest.

464
00:30:56,440 --> 00:30:59,480
Speaker 1: I'm gonna be perfectly blunt with you here, and you

465
00:30:59,520 --> 00:31:02,400
Speaker 1: and I are all always open and blunt about these matters.

466
00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:05,880
Speaker 1: We have to be on bodybags. And it's the most

467
00:31:05,920 --> 00:31:09,400
Speaker 1: problematic for someone that is that has dismembered a body.

468
00:31:09,440 --> 00:31:11,760
Speaker 1: What are you going to do with a torso? And

469
00:31:11,760 --> 00:31:17,000
Speaker 1: that that's very difficult. And there's listen, you know this

470
00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:22,360
Speaker 1: this case does in fact, you know it's Melissa. We

471
00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:26,400
Speaker 1: know that now at the stage, but early on, when

472
00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:32,360
Speaker 1: you don't have a torso, you cannot determine the sex.

473
00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:35,640
Speaker 1: And even if you just had skeletal remains of a pelvis,

474
00:31:35,960 --> 00:31:39,040
Speaker 1: there are pelvic dimensions that we apply. You know, women's

475
00:31:39,560 --> 00:31:44,760
Speaker 1: hips are wider because they have to accommodate childbirth and

476
00:31:44,920 --> 00:31:47,000
Speaker 1: you don't have a pelvis to examine at that point

477
00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:50,640
Speaker 1: in time. But with a skull, here's two terms. I'm

478
00:31:50,640 --> 00:31:53,320
Speaker 1: going to throw throw these two terms at you. When

479
00:31:53,320 --> 00:31:56,760
Speaker 1: we're talking about male skulls. For instance, a male skull,

480
00:31:57,440 --> 00:32:00,160
Speaker 1: if you if folks at home will run their fingers

481
00:32:01,040 --> 00:32:04,560
Speaker 1: adjacent to where their eyebrows are. That's called the brow line.

482
00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:09,800
Speaker 1: With males, that's generally referred to as being robust, okay,

483
00:32:09,800 --> 00:32:14,160
Speaker 1: because it's kind of not really protuberant, but it's it's

484
00:32:14,920 --> 00:32:17,600
Speaker 1: when you look at a male's forehead compared to a

485
00:32:17,600 --> 00:32:20,960
Speaker 1: female support forehead, you'll see that the brow line is

486
00:32:21,040 --> 00:32:24,840
Speaker 1: more robust, and females they're actually, here's a here's kind

487
00:32:24,840 --> 00:32:27,200
Speaker 1: of a cool word. My kids at school always find

488
00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:31,680
Speaker 1: it interesting. Uh. The term for UH female features most

489
00:32:31,680 --> 00:32:34,560
Speaker 1: of the time is grass isle and grass isle actually

490
00:32:35,560 --> 00:32:39,320
Speaker 1: UH is defined as fine if I ne like finer,

491
00:32:39,480 --> 00:32:44,520
Speaker 1: more more delicate. And I really wonder what they were seeing,

492
00:32:45,320 --> 00:32:47,960
Speaker 1: you know, with her skull when they misidentified it, because

493
00:32:48,040 --> 00:32:50,479
Speaker 1: it's not you know, with her case, it wasn't a

494
00:32:50,520 --> 00:32:55,120
Speaker 1: matter of doing a DNA at that particular time. They

495
00:32:55,120 --> 00:32:57,960
Speaker 1: were looking at what's referred to as the morphology of

496
00:32:58,000 --> 00:33:01,480
Speaker 1: the skull and simply based on that and taking measurements,

497
00:33:01,880 --> 00:33:05,080
Speaker 1: they determined by those predetermined numbers that they have accrued

498
00:33:05,160 --> 00:33:08,520
Speaker 1: over all these years, they've called this a mail. And

499
00:33:08,560 --> 00:33:12,520
Speaker 1: so that puts you off on a tangent that is

500
00:33:12,560 --> 00:33:16,160
Speaker 1: going to skew the investigation greatly. As a matter of fact,

501
00:33:17,080 --> 00:33:21,520
Speaker 1: they thought that Dave, they actually thought that this case

502
00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:25,480
Speaker 1: may be a man that was missing out of South Georgia.

503
00:33:25,520 --> 00:33:28,920
Speaker 1: A man. Wow. So how much further can you be

504
00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:32,560
Speaker 1: put off? Course? With this and the fact that they

505
00:33:32,560 --> 00:33:36,560
Speaker 1: didn't recover initially at the scene those other elements of

506
00:33:36,600 --> 00:33:39,280
Speaker 1: the body that are wrapped, and again they are immediately

507
00:33:39,320 --> 00:33:45,720
Speaker 1: adjacent to Avon Avenue and oh, by the way, immediately

508
00:33:45,760 --> 00:33:53,800
Speaker 1: adjacent to a glass shop where Melissa's husband worked.

509
00:33:55,240 --> 00:33:59,160
Speaker 2: You know, you know that's helpful after the fact. And Letty,

510
00:33:59,240 --> 00:34:03,760
Speaker 2: why at the point when the skull was found, Melissa

511
00:34:03,800 --> 00:34:07,200
Speaker 2: Wolfenberger had not been reported missing. Her family hadn't seen her,

512
00:34:07,200 --> 00:34:09,440
Speaker 2: but they hadn't put it all together yet because Christopher

513
00:34:09,440 --> 00:34:13,080
Speaker 2: had separated her from the family. When the arms and

514
00:34:13,239 --> 00:34:17,240
Speaker 2: legs are found, that was June third, they were beginning

515
00:34:17,280 --> 00:34:20,040
Speaker 2: to hey, we're hunting around for her now, but still

516
00:34:20,160 --> 00:34:24,520
Speaker 2: no report yet, and yet two years go by. But

517
00:34:25,040 --> 00:34:27,080
Speaker 2: back up, I asked you about the grid search and

518
00:34:27,120 --> 00:34:28,919
Speaker 2: you explained how they would bring out the good debts

519
00:34:28,960 --> 00:34:32,239
Speaker 2: from the academy and walk arm in arm. But when

520
00:34:32,280 --> 00:34:35,480
Speaker 2: the arms and legs are found, they're not found in

521
00:34:35,480 --> 00:34:38,520
Speaker 2: the middle of the road. But how far away are

522
00:34:38,520 --> 00:34:41,040
Speaker 2: we talking? Are we talking about where they would Could

523
00:34:41,120 --> 00:34:43,960
Speaker 2: they have been dropped off after the skull was found,

524
00:34:44,080 --> 00:34:46,000
Speaker 2: or were they dropped at the same time. Is there

525
00:34:46,040 --> 00:34:46,799
Speaker 2: a way to tell that?

526
00:34:48,360 --> 00:34:54,000
Speaker 1: Well, I suppose, I suppose perhaps that could have been,

527
00:34:54,239 --> 00:34:58,239
Speaker 1: and I think that going to that that idea would

528
00:34:58,280 --> 00:35:01,480
Speaker 1: be there's kind of an interesting thought. And now I

529
00:35:01,640 --> 00:35:04,680
Speaker 1: have no proof of this. There are times in the

530
00:35:04,719 --> 00:35:08,000
Speaker 1: past where people have dismembered bodies and have frozen elements

531
00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:11,000
Speaker 1: of the body in like a deep freezer, okay, and

532
00:35:11,040 --> 00:35:14,640
Speaker 1: they would one by one take these elements out and

533
00:35:14,719 --> 00:35:18,200
Speaker 1: deposit them over the course of a period time over

534
00:35:18,320 --> 00:35:24,120
Speaker 1: broad ranging geographic area, and that would throw individuals off

535
00:35:24,560 --> 00:35:29,320
Speaker 1: that were examining the remains by the level of decay.

536
00:35:29,800 --> 00:35:32,840
Speaker 1: Because if you have something that is found safe, for instance,

537
00:35:32,920 --> 00:35:37,239
Speaker 1: in April, and it was frozen when it was put out,

538
00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:39,279
Speaker 1: and then now it's in the state that it's in.

539
00:35:39,320 --> 00:35:41,239
Speaker 1: But yet you find something that's found in June, and

540
00:35:41,280 --> 00:35:45,160
Speaker 1: maybe it's not as far gone. But here's the problem, Dave,

541
00:35:45,520 --> 00:35:48,440
Speaker 1: you can't make that assessment because they didn't search the

542
00:35:48,520 --> 00:35:53,000
Speaker 1: area at least thoroughly enough. To find these other elements

543
00:35:53,040 --> 00:35:55,080
Speaker 1: that may have been out there. I think that they

544
00:35:55,120 --> 00:35:59,560
Speaker 1: probably were. And since we know that each one of

545
00:35:59,600 --> 00:36:04,080
Speaker 1: those elements was individually packaged, that means that the head

546
00:36:04,120 --> 00:36:09,200
Speaker 1: was individually packaged. And I think that the animal that

547
00:36:09,440 --> 00:36:12,799
Speaker 1: found those bags chose that bag with the head in

548
00:36:12,840 --> 00:36:17,480
Speaker 1: it and left everything else behind. And this wooded area

549
00:36:17,520 --> 00:36:21,240
Speaker 1: and Dave the area where those the limbs were found,

550
00:36:21,680 --> 00:36:24,919
Speaker 1: it's a dense it's kind of a dense overgrowth that's

551
00:36:24,920 --> 00:36:28,520
Speaker 1: in there, like if you were going to hide something, okay,

552
00:36:28,719 --> 00:36:32,000
Speaker 1: that's where you would go, okay. And so you know,

553
00:36:32,280 --> 00:36:35,239
Speaker 1: if you're going to concentrate all of those elements, not

554
00:36:35,320 --> 00:36:39,640
Speaker 1: just one, but all of them there, it's hard to

555
00:36:39,640 --> 00:36:43,880
Speaker 1: make sense out of having the head separate, you know,

556
00:36:44,160 --> 00:36:48,720
Speaker 1: moving forward, and so that that's the whole thing creates

557
00:36:48,760 --> 00:36:52,520
Speaker 1: a major problem. But I think one of the things

558
00:36:52,520 --> 00:36:54,719
Speaker 1: that we have to think about here as well is

559
00:36:56,080 --> 00:37:00,480
Speaker 1: how did how did how did the arms and legs

560
00:37:00,640 --> 00:37:03,840
Speaker 1: become separated and the head becomes separated from the body.

561
00:37:04,400 --> 00:37:08,160
Speaker 1: I have to come back to what the husband did

562
00:37:08,239 --> 00:37:11,080
Speaker 1: as an occupation, and I don't know how many of

563
00:37:11,080 --> 00:37:13,040
Speaker 1: you guys have ever been in a glass shop and

564
00:37:13,080 --> 00:37:17,239
Speaker 1: I'm not talking about glass, like blowing glass, all right,

565
00:37:17,280 --> 00:37:20,279
Speaker 1: I'm making art. I'm talking about like where you're making windows.

566
00:37:21,120 --> 00:37:26,400
Speaker 1: Guess what they have sauce. They have high speed sauce

567
00:37:26,560 --> 00:37:32,319
Speaker 1: in these locations. And the husband allegedly had access to

568
00:37:32,440 --> 00:37:36,680
Speaker 1: this place, so you have control over this area. If

569
00:37:36,719 --> 00:37:40,040
Speaker 1: you wanted to go into a place like this and

570
00:37:40,239 --> 00:37:45,040
Speaker 1: essentially dismember a human remain, I don't know. I think

571
00:37:45,080 --> 00:37:47,440
Speaker 1: that it would be a pretty good candidate. The location

572
00:37:47,560 --> 00:37:49,880
Speaker 1: would be at least I've seen the crime scene, not

573
00:37:50,040 --> 00:37:55,800
Speaker 1: the crime scene images. But when when Cheryl, when Mac

574
00:37:56,200 --> 00:37:59,800
Speaker 1: went back out to that scene and revisited, she stood

575
00:37:59,800 --> 00:38:02,080
Speaker 1: in the very location where the head was found. Guess

576
00:38:02,120 --> 00:38:05,279
Speaker 1: what she looked back to. I think I might be wrong.

577
00:38:05,640 --> 00:38:10,879
Speaker 1: She looked back to her right and yeah, to her right,

578
00:38:11,000 --> 00:38:12,880
Speaker 1: So it would have been like at her two o'clock

579
00:38:12,920 --> 00:38:15,680
Speaker 1: position from where the head was found. Guess what you

580
00:38:15,680 --> 00:38:20,080
Speaker 1: could see action glass. It's literally they say, the fencing

581
00:38:20,239 --> 00:38:24,320
Speaker 1: around the place. It was right there, dude, right there. Yeah.

582
00:38:25,040 --> 00:38:27,279
Speaker 2: And so when they get there, they find out that

583
00:38:27,360 --> 00:38:31,840
Speaker 2: Christiper was fired from there. So now they're not in

584
00:38:31,880 --> 00:38:34,640
Speaker 2: the house. Christopher moved. Christopher has been fired from the

585
00:38:34,640 --> 00:38:37,080
Speaker 2: only job. They knew that he had. They've got no

586
00:38:37,239 --> 00:38:39,919
Speaker 2: idea of where Christopher has moved. They don't know where

587
00:38:39,920 --> 00:38:42,000
Speaker 2: their daughter is, where the grandkids are, They don't know anything.

588
00:38:42,760 --> 00:38:46,520
Speaker 2: Norma then tries to report her daughter missing in Henry County.

589
00:38:46,640 --> 00:38:48,960
Speaker 2: They won't accept it because that's not where Melissa live.

590
00:38:49,040 --> 00:38:51,080
Speaker 2: You pointed out, this is in Fulton County, is where

591
00:38:51,080 --> 00:38:54,200
Speaker 2: they were living. And so Norma tries to report Melissa

592
00:38:54,480 --> 00:38:57,640
Speaker 2: missing in Atlanta and the police tell her that, look,

593
00:38:57,719 --> 00:39:00,400
Speaker 2: Melissa is a grown woman. She's married, she has the

594
00:39:00,440 --> 00:39:02,200
Speaker 2: right do what she wants to do. She can leave down,

595
00:39:02,360 --> 00:39:05,200
Speaker 2: she doesn't have to talk to you, no law, the

596
00:39:05,200 --> 00:39:08,000
Speaker 2: cops said, there's no indication anything happened to her. Now,

597
00:39:09,280 --> 00:39:12,319
Speaker 2: the husband's not concerned because he tells police. You know,

598
00:39:13,719 --> 00:39:15,840
Speaker 2: for a number of years, Melissa and I have talked

599
00:39:15,840 --> 00:39:19,359
Speaker 2: about getting some fake IDs, changing her identities and just

600
00:39:19,520 --> 00:39:21,880
Speaker 2: taking the kids and leaving and going to California and

601
00:39:22,000 --> 00:39:25,200
Speaker 2: just getting off the grid. I think that's what she did.

602
00:39:26,800 --> 00:39:30,520
Speaker 2: I don't know who believes that story. The same cops

603
00:39:30,520 --> 00:39:32,520
Speaker 2: that couldn't figure out where the legs and arms were

604
00:39:32,560 --> 00:39:34,160
Speaker 2: after they found the skull in the middle. You know,

605
00:39:34,600 --> 00:39:36,680
Speaker 2: I don't know, Joe, but that's what happened, and they

606
00:39:36,680 --> 00:39:39,640
Speaker 2: actually bought that and went away. How do you what

607
00:39:39,760 --> 00:39:42,200
Speaker 2: kind of people are investigating this is what I'm asking.

608
00:39:42,520 --> 00:39:46,440
Speaker 1: It's baffling, and you know, I think that many people

609
00:39:46,719 --> 00:39:50,520
Speaker 1: a knee jerk reaction will see, well, there are hundreds

610
00:39:50,640 --> 00:39:53,279
Speaker 1: of cases that occur all the time, and you can't

611
00:39:53,280 --> 00:39:56,719
Speaker 1: throw all over your energy. This is kind of this

612
00:39:56,760 --> 00:40:00,120
Speaker 1: is kind of elemental level stuff here, you know, and

613
00:40:00,160 --> 00:40:02,680
Speaker 1: you begin to think about it. It all depends on

614
00:40:03,239 --> 00:40:07,400
Speaker 1: how vested you are. One of the problems is is

615
00:40:07,440 --> 00:40:11,839
Speaker 1: that you've got the mother who you can imagine, she's

616
00:40:11,880 --> 00:40:14,759
Speaker 1: never swam in these waters before. It's easy for me

617
00:40:14,840 --> 00:40:17,959
Speaker 1: to sit here as a forensics guy and a former

618
00:40:18,040 --> 00:40:21,600
Speaker 1: death investigator and talk about what should have done. But Norma,

619
00:40:22,160 --> 00:40:25,400
Speaker 1: Norma's never you know, worked a case. You know, she

620
00:40:25,480 --> 00:40:27,920
Speaker 1: doesn't know what it's like to go to APD or

621
00:40:27,960 --> 00:40:30,960
Speaker 1: go down to Henry County Police Department or to the

622
00:40:31,000 --> 00:40:36,600
Speaker 1: Fayette County Police Police Department where you know, some where

623
00:40:36,640 --> 00:40:40,000
Speaker 1: there was some involvement relative to this that actually wound

624
00:40:40,040 --> 00:40:43,680
Speaker 1: up helping her with the case. You just scratching your hood.

625
00:40:43,719 --> 00:40:45,360
Speaker 2: I'm just thinking about something, and you know, what I

626
00:40:45,360 --> 00:40:47,279
Speaker 2: would do, I mean, really would when you were just

627
00:40:47,400 --> 00:40:50,000
Speaker 2: I just thought about this. If I had something like

628
00:40:50,040 --> 00:40:53,799
Speaker 2: this happened in my world, I would call you, I'd

629
00:40:53,840 --> 00:40:56,759
Speaker 2: call Nancy, I'd call sheel Nutt. You know a group

630
00:40:56,800 --> 00:40:59,640
Speaker 2: of friends that I know that are in this realm.

631
00:41:00,040 --> 00:41:01,879
Speaker 2: I would not know where to go on my own.

632
00:41:01,920 --> 00:41:03,759
Speaker 2: I would have to call friends for help because I

633
00:41:03,760 --> 00:41:07,200
Speaker 2: really wouldn't know and how could they. That's got to

634
00:41:07,200 --> 00:41:10,880
Speaker 2: be the most miserable thing in the world. Where's my

635
00:41:10,920 --> 00:41:12,600
Speaker 2: adult daughter and my grandkids?

636
00:41:12,719 --> 00:41:17,560
Speaker 1: Interestingly enough, and to their great credit, that's who Norma

637
00:41:17,600 --> 00:41:19,680
Speaker 1: wound up. She I think she came to the end

638
00:41:19,680 --> 00:41:24,239
Speaker 1: of a rope. She actually reached the World's a funny thing, Dave.

639
00:41:24,800 --> 00:41:28,640
Speaker 1: She actually reached out to an investigator with Fayette County,

640
00:41:29,080 --> 00:41:31,440
Speaker 1: which again is a met for folks that don't know.

641
00:41:31,520 --> 00:41:35,600
Speaker 1: It's a metro area Atlanta County that is actually south

642
00:41:35,840 --> 00:41:41,880
Speaker 1: kind of south southwest of downtown. Henry County is south

643
00:41:42,000 --> 00:41:45,040
Speaker 1: and kind of southeast down the I seventy five corridor.

644
00:41:45,960 --> 00:41:49,840
Speaker 1: And the guy in Fayette County was actually involved to

645
00:41:49,920 --> 00:41:53,400
Speaker 1: a certain degree with Norma's husband, who is the serial

646
00:41:53,480 --> 00:41:57,959
Speaker 1: killer that's currently in prison in Georgia for five homicides.

647
00:41:58,440 --> 00:42:00,640
Speaker 1: He's a guy that helped her out. He's the guy

648
00:42:00,640 --> 00:42:03,560
Speaker 1: that kind of pushed this up the line that that,

649
00:42:03,840 --> 00:42:06,839
Speaker 1: you know, brought this to an awareness. I think that

650
00:42:07,160 --> 00:42:12,040
Speaker 1: you know that still it wound up bringing this thing

651
00:42:12,200 --> 00:42:16,520
Speaker 1: full circle, you know, to for Norma and her family

652
00:42:17,400 --> 00:42:19,960
Speaker 1: to And I hate the term closure because as you

653
00:42:20,080 --> 00:42:22,560
Speaker 1: well know, and as I've stated before, there's no such thing.

654
00:42:24,040 --> 00:42:27,839
Speaker 1: But you know, I think that we what we do

655
00:42:27,960 --> 00:42:31,839
Speaker 1: desire for the family is a journey toward peace with it.

656
00:42:32,600 --> 00:42:35,360
Speaker 2: And yeah, I think that's a great way to phraseer Joe,

657
00:42:35,960 --> 00:42:39,520
Speaker 2: a journey toward peace, because you don't make it.

658
00:42:38,960 --> 00:42:46,239
Speaker 1: You really don't. And and here's the thing. Melissa was

659
00:42:46,280 --> 00:42:50,160
Speaker 1: finally identified, but it it was two thousand and three

660
00:42:50,960 --> 00:42:54,920
Speaker 1: when she's identified and she's actually identified by DNA.

661
00:42:56,040 --> 00:42:57,480
Speaker 2: Okay, I was going to ask you how that happened

662
00:42:57,520 --> 00:42:59,440
Speaker 2: because we had the you had the skull, and you

663
00:42:59,480 --> 00:43:01,920
Speaker 2: had the and he had the legs. Was it because

664
00:43:01,960 --> 00:43:05,279
Speaker 2: her dad was now in the system and he had

665
00:43:05,280 --> 00:43:07,400
Speaker 2: his DNA andenter and they were able to test it

666
00:43:07,440 --> 00:43:11,480
Speaker 2: and boom, so her dad being convicted of the murders

667
00:43:11,480 --> 00:43:14,879
Speaker 2: from the seventies gets convicted is in prison in two

668
00:43:14,920 --> 00:43:17,960
Speaker 2: thousand and three, they're able to get it, and he

669
00:43:18,040 --> 00:43:21,280
Speaker 2: then says, you know what, the detective who solved my crimes,

670
00:43:21,360 --> 00:43:23,880
Speaker 2: who solved my murders, that's the guy you need to

671
00:43:23,920 --> 00:43:27,080
Speaker 2: get he was he caught me. See what he can do.

672
00:43:27,560 --> 00:43:29,759
Speaker 2: And that's so it all bid happen. When Crawl ends

673
00:43:29,840 --> 00:43:30,600
Speaker 2: up in prison.

674
00:43:30,360 --> 00:43:35,480
Speaker 1: Karl actually pled with them to please help, please help

675
00:43:36,000 --> 00:43:40,359
Speaker 1: find find out what happened to my daughter. Please. You know,

676
00:43:40,440 --> 00:43:43,640
Speaker 1: he's got nothing else that he's sitting in prison, and

677
00:43:43,680 --> 00:43:47,760
Speaker 1: of course is working with him on this, and that

678
00:43:47,760 --> 00:43:50,279
Speaker 1: that kind of gets a proverbial ball rolling. You know,

679
00:43:50,320 --> 00:43:54,120
Speaker 1: once you know who the person is. That's why all

680
00:43:54,160 --> 00:43:58,160
Speaker 1: investigations start with identification. It's one of the most critical

681
00:43:58,160 --> 00:44:00,880
Speaker 1: things when you're talking about death investigation. I can't stress

682
00:44:00,920 --> 00:44:04,560
Speaker 1: that enough. If you don't know who they are, you

683
00:44:04,600 --> 00:44:07,640
Speaker 1: can say, well, yes, I have a dead body. But

684
00:44:07,880 --> 00:44:10,960
Speaker 1: beyond having a dead body and certain types of trauma

685
00:44:11,040 --> 00:44:12,840
Speaker 1: and those sorts of things, where you going to go

686
00:44:12,920 --> 00:44:15,600
Speaker 1: with it because you have to know something about the

687
00:44:15,680 --> 00:44:19,520
Speaker 1: life of that person who inhabited their circle. So when

688
00:44:19,640 --> 00:44:23,000
Speaker 1: all of that information just kind of vaporizes, all you're

689
00:44:23,080 --> 00:44:26,239
Speaker 1: left with are human remains that are sitting in a

690
00:44:26,320 --> 00:44:30,720
Speaker 1: bag in a cold, cold cooler in a medical examiner's office.

691
00:44:31,280 --> 00:44:38,720
Speaker 1: But here's the really cool thing, now, Dave. For years,

692
00:44:39,360 --> 00:44:50,720
Speaker 1: for years, Melissa Wolfenberger's husband, Christopher was a person of interest,

693
00:44:53,239 --> 00:44:59,600
Speaker 1: But now he has been arrested, no longer a person

694
00:44:59,640 --> 00:45:12,680
Speaker 1: of entries, but an identified suspect, and finally maybe the

695
00:45:12,760 --> 00:45:17,440
Speaker 1: family will have peace. We're going to keep you abreast

696
00:45:18,120 --> 00:45:22,080
Speaker 1: relative to the developments. He's been charged with murder, not

697
00:45:22,080 --> 00:45:26,200
Speaker 1: not tried, not convicted. Okay, it's having two weeks ago,

698
00:45:26,320 --> 00:45:29,719
Speaker 1: just two weeks ago, and I would urge each and

699
00:45:29,880 --> 00:45:35,280
Speaker 1: every one of our listeners, our friends, please do yourself

700
00:45:35,320 --> 00:45:40,880
Speaker 1: a favor. Go to Zone seven podcast. Listen to what

701
00:45:41,200 --> 00:45:47,200
Speaker 1: my friend Cheryl Mac has to say about this case.

702
00:45:47,760 --> 00:45:51,520
Speaker 1: She has got episode after episode after episode. She has

703
00:45:51,640 --> 00:45:55,040
Speaker 1: poured her life into this case over the last few years.

704
00:45:55,760 --> 00:45:59,600
Speaker 1: This is proof that if you put your shoulder to

705
00:45:59,600 --> 00:46:05,560
Speaker 1: the stone and you don't give up, that hope may

706
00:46:05,640 --> 00:46:14,200
Speaker 1: spring eternal. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is Bodybacks