1 00:00:01,320 --> 00:00:04,280 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production 2 00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:10,960 Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio. 3 00:00:11,960 --> 00:00:15,400 Speaker 2: Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Tracy V. Wilson, 4 00:00:15,640 --> 00:00:19,159 Speaker 2: and I'm Holly Frye. I don't remember exactly what was 5 00:00:19,200 --> 00:00:23,320 Speaker 2: happening when, like the first seed was planted for this episode, 6 00:00:23,320 --> 00:00:25,680 Speaker 2: but I am pretty sure I was on discord, which 7 00:00:25,680 --> 00:00:29,600 Speaker 2: means I was playing a game, whatever it was. Things 8 00:00:29,640 --> 00:00:33,640 Speaker 2: were winding down and somebody said I moved that the 9 00:00:33,720 --> 00:00:37,760 Speaker 2: meeting be adjourned. We were not in a meeting, but well, 10 00:00:38,120 --> 00:00:39,800 Speaker 2: we all knew what that meant, and I found that 11 00:00:39,880 --> 00:00:43,240 Speaker 2: whole moment hilarious. So that's stuck in my brain, even 12 00:00:43,280 --> 00:00:46,280 Speaker 2: though the exact surroundings of what was happening did not. 13 00:00:47,240 --> 00:00:52,360 Speaker 2: And then in the weeks after that, just random references 14 00:00:52,400 --> 00:00:56,160 Speaker 2: to Robert's Rules of Order kept popping up at odd 15 00:00:56,200 --> 00:00:58,880 Speaker 2: places in my life, until I was finally like, Okay, 16 00:00:58,920 --> 00:01:06,080 Speaker 2: who is Robert? Robert was Henry Martin Robert, so unlike 17 00:01:06,160 --> 00:01:09,120 Speaker 2: what I had always assumed, Robert was his last name, 18 00:01:09,200 --> 00:01:13,399 Speaker 2: not his first name. My first experience with Robert's Rules 19 00:01:13,440 --> 00:01:16,920 Speaker 2: of Order was in four AH meetings in the nineteen eighties, 20 00:01:17,120 --> 00:01:20,480 Speaker 2: and to me, it somehow felt like something out of 21 00:01:20,520 --> 00:01:25,880 Speaker 2: my parents' generation. But Henry Martin Robert lived way before that, 22 00:01:26,080 --> 00:01:29,760 Speaker 2: and he was connected to multiple events that we have 23 00:01:29,840 --> 00:01:32,319 Speaker 2: covered on the show before, most of them really had 24 00:01:32,360 --> 00:01:36,240 Speaker 2: nothing to do with parliamentary procedure. I know all of 25 00:01:36,319 --> 00:01:39,039 Speaker 2: you know how much I like to read from old 26 00:01:39,200 --> 00:01:42,280 Speaker 2: historical documents on the podcast. And if you're thinking, Tracy, 27 00:01:42,280 --> 00:01:45,560 Speaker 2: are you about to trick us into listening to you 28 00:01:45,640 --> 00:01:49,120 Speaker 2: read Robert's Rules of Order? No, we are not going 29 00:01:49,160 --> 00:01:50,200 Speaker 2: to read Robert's. 30 00:01:49,960 --> 00:01:50,840 Speaker 1: Rules of Order. 31 00:01:52,920 --> 00:01:55,640 Speaker 2: Because I don't want to, and I also don't want 32 00:01:55,680 --> 00:01:58,000 Speaker 2: people who are super familiar with it to yell at 33 00:01:58,000 --> 00:02:00,560 Speaker 2: me about getting anything wrong. This is way about his 34 00:02:00,680 --> 00:02:05,280 Speaker 2: life than the specifics of Robert's rules, all right. 35 00:02:05,400 --> 00:02:08,680 Speaker 1: So, Henry Martin Robert was born May second, eighteen thirty 36 00:02:08,720 --> 00:02:13,960 Speaker 1: seven on his grandfather's plantation near Robertville, South Carolina, And yes, 37 00:02:14,120 --> 00:02:17,520 Speaker 1: Robertville was named for the Robert family, although they were 38 00:02:17,560 --> 00:02:20,720 Speaker 1: descended from Huguenots, who probably would have pronounced it in 39 00:02:20,760 --> 00:02:23,200 Speaker 1: a more French way because who wouldn't want you anyway? 40 00:02:24,120 --> 00:02:27,040 Speaker 1: The white families in this area were tightly connected through 41 00:02:27,120 --> 00:02:32,240 Speaker 1: various intermarriages. Henry's parents Joseph Thomas Robert and Adeline Lawton 42 00:02:32,400 --> 00:02:33,480 Speaker 1: were cousins. 43 00:02:34,040 --> 00:02:37,600 Speaker 2: Henry was one of six children born to Joseph and Adeline, 44 00:02:38,400 --> 00:02:42,799 Speaker 2: and four of those children survived until adulthood. This family 45 00:02:43,160 --> 00:02:47,160 Speaker 2: was devoutly religious. They had been devoutly religious for generations. 46 00:02:47,240 --> 00:02:52,080 Speaker 2: Those ancestors who first immigrated to North America included Pierre Robert, 47 00:02:52,160 --> 00:02:57,840 Speaker 2: who became pastor of South Carolina's first French Huguenot church. Eventually, 48 00:02:57,960 --> 00:03:02,519 Speaker 2: the Robertses had become Baptists, and Henry's father and grandfather 49 00:03:02,639 --> 00:03:07,200 Speaker 2: were both Baptist ministers. His father, Joseph Thomas Robert, also 50 00:03:07,320 --> 00:03:08,560 Speaker 2: trained as a doctor. 51 00:03:09,280 --> 00:03:12,040 Speaker 1: In the years before the US Civil War, there were 52 00:03:12,080 --> 00:03:16,160 Speaker 1: white clergy who used the Bible and religion to justify slavery, 53 00:03:16,840 --> 00:03:21,440 Speaker 1: but Joseph Robert's religious convictions eventually led him to oppose slavery. 54 00:03:22,200 --> 00:03:24,800 Speaker 1: Some of the more recent writing on Henry Martin Robert 55 00:03:24,800 --> 00:03:27,760 Speaker 1: makes it sound like his father was a vocal abolitionist 56 00:03:27,800 --> 00:03:31,560 Speaker 1: who manumitted his enslaved workforce and moved the family to 57 00:03:31,600 --> 00:03:34,359 Speaker 1: the free state of Ohio to get away from the institution. 58 00:03:35,560 --> 00:03:38,600 Speaker 1: Many of the more recent writings also assigned this viewpoint 59 00:03:38,600 --> 00:03:41,840 Speaker 1: to Henry's mother, Adeline as well as to Henry himself. 60 00:03:42,440 --> 00:03:43,240 Speaker 1: The reality is a. 61 00:03:43,240 --> 00:03:46,840 Speaker 2: Little bit more complicated. Though they did not go straight 62 00:03:46,880 --> 00:03:51,280 Speaker 2: from South Carolina to Ohio, they moved several times between 63 00:03:51,320 --> 00:03:55,400 Speaker 2: eighteen thirty nine and eighteen forty nine. The exact reasons 64 00:03:55,400 --> 00:03:58,560 Speaker 2: for all those moves aren't clearly documented, but it was 65 00:03:58,640 --> 00:04:02,240 Speaker 2: pretty common for past to move from one congregation to 66 00:04:02,320 --> 00:04:06,360 Speaker 2: another for all kinds of reasons. The family's first move 67 00:04:06,640 --> 00:04:10,560 Speaker 2: was to Covington, Kentucky, in eighteen thirty nine. Kentucky was 68 00:04:10,640 --> 00:04:13,600 Speaker 2: a slave state and there were both pro and anti 69 00:04:13,600 --> 00:04:17,800 Speaker 2: slavery factions in Covington. They were in Covington for less 70 00:04:17,839 --> 00:04:21,560 Speaker 2: than two years before moving to Lebanon, Ohio, so a 71 00:04:21,600 --> 00:04:25,159 Speaker 2: free state, but then five years later they moved to Georgia, 72 00:04:25,240 --> 00:04:28,440 Speaker 2: a slave state, where Joseph served as pastor of the 73 00:04:28,480 --> 00:04:31,960 Speaker 2: First Baptist Church of Savannah. In eighteen forty nine, they 74 00:04:32,040 --> 00:04:36,119 Speaker 2: moved back to Robertville. When the family moved yet again 75 00:04:36,240 --> 00:04:39,440 Speaker 2: to Portsmouth, Ohio, they were in a free state, but 76 00:04:39,480 --> 00:04:41,240 Speaker 2: they were in a town that had a lot of 77 00:04:41,320 --> 00:04:46,800 Speaker 2: Southern sympathizers. Although there are family stories about Adeline trying 78 00:04:46,800 --> 00:04:49,880 Speaker 2: to teach enslave children to read in her youth and 79 00:04:50,040 --> 00:04:53,799 Speaker 2: coming to oppost slavery as well. She also maintained strong 80 00:04:53,920 --> 00:04:57,640 Speaker 2: Southern sympathies and clearly missed her plantation life in South 81 00:04:57,680 --> 00:05:01,680 Speaker 2: Carolina and Henry Martin robert views on slavery are not 82 00:05:01,880 --> 00:05:05,320 Speaker 2: specifically detailed in his public writings or in the papers 83 00:05:05,360 --> 00:05:09,279 Speaker 2: that have been made available to historians and biographers. Yeah, 84 00:05:09,279 --> 00:05:11,520 Speaker 2: I read a whole paper that was published back in 85 00:05:11,560 --> 00:05:15,920 Speaker 2: twenty twelve that was like, his personal views on almost 86 00:05:16,000 --> 00:05:20,479 Speaker 2: everything are a total mystery. And while there is a 87 00:05:20,520 --> 00:05:23,480 Speaker 2: biography that came out after that paper was written, it 88 00:05:23,560 --> 00:05:26,400 Speaker 2: also is not very specific about his views on pretty 89 00:05:26,440 --> 00:05:29,080 Speaker 2: much anything. We'll talk about that a little bit more 90 00:05:29,120 --> 00:05:32,480 Speaker 2: on the Friday Behind the Scenes. While the Roberts family 91 00:05:32,600 --> 00:05:36,320 Speaker 2: was living in Portsmouth, Ohio, Henry Martin Roberts was appointed 92 00:05:36,360 --> 00:05:40,240 Speaker 2: to the US Military Academy at West Point in New York, 93 00:05:40,680 --> 00:05:44,440 Speaker 2: where he hoped to train as an engineer. He was sixteen, 94 00:05:44,640 --> 00:05:47,320 Speaker 2: That made him one of the youngest cadets in his class. 95 00:05:47,800 --> 00:05:51,040 Speaker 2: He graduated in eighteen fifty seven, and during his last 96 00:05:51,080 --> 00:05:55,000 Speaker 2: year at the academy, he also served as a mathematics instructor. 97 00:05:55,760 --> 00:05:59,080 Speaker 2: Math is, of course a huge part of engineering and 98 00:05:59,160 --> 00:06:01,920 Speaker 2: a lack of mathema proficiency was one of the main 99 00:06:02,120 --> 00:06:05,480 Speaker 2: reasons that cadets failed out of that course of study. 100 00:06:06,279 --> 00:06:09,640 Speaker 2: Henry really excelled at math, though so much so that 101 00:06:09,680 --> 00:06:12,080 Speaker 2: they had him teaching it before he had even graduated, 102 00:06:12,440 --> 00:06:16,760 Speaker 2: and then he graduated fourth in his class overall. When 103 00:06:16,800 --> 00:06:19,480 Speaker 2: he graduated, he became a second lieutenant in the Army 104 00:06:19,480 --> 00:06:23,000 Speaker 2: Corps of Engineers, and for a year he continued teaching 105 00:06:23,080 --> 00:06:27,240 Speaker 2: at West Point. I will say, if you can do 106 00:06:27,400 --> 00:06:31,000 Speaker 2: your studies and have the job of teaching and still 107 00:06:31,040 --> 00:06:35,560 Speaker 2: graduate fourth, I think you're terrifying as an achiever in 108 00:06:35,600 --> 00:06:38,400 Speaker 2: a good way. After that, his first assignment was to 109 00:06:38,560 --> 00:06:42,520 Speaker 2: Washington Territory. He set out on October third, eighteen fifty eight, 110 00:06:42,600 --> 00:06:46,479 Speaker 2: taking a steamship south, crossing the Isthmus of Panama by 111 00:06:46,520 --> 00:06:49,160 Speaker 2: train and making the rest of the voyage by sea. 112 00:06:49,680 --> 00:06:53,320 Speaker 2: He contracted malaria while traveling across Panama, and he wasn't 113 00:06:53,400 --> 00:06:57,000 Speaker 2: really given any time to recover. Once he arrived in Washington, 114 00:06:57,160 --> 00:06:59,839 Speaker 2: he and his unit were immediately set to work building 115 00:06:59,839 --> 00:07:03,760 Speaker 2: a road. The United States was at war with indigenous 116 00:07:03,880 --> 00:07:06,880 Speaker 2: nations in the Pacific Northwest, and the Army Corps of 117 00:07:06,880 --> 00:07:11,000 Speaker 2: Engineers was building roads and bridges and surveying for railroad 118 00:07:11,000 --> 00:07:15,120 Speaker 2: lines to facilitate troop movements in that conflict. Yeah, that's 119 00:07:15,440 --> 00:07:19,120 Speaker 2: not the only place that wars with indigenous people were 120 00:07:19,160 --> 00:07:21,200 Speaker 2: going on, but he was. That's where he was located 121 00:07:21,200 --> 00:07:25,440 Speaker 2: at that point. Robert's work building roads was disrupted by 122 00:07:25,480 --> 00:07:28,760 Speaker 2: an incident we covered on the show almost a decade ago. 123 00:07:29,360 --> 00:07:31,960 Speaker 2: That was the Pig War, and we will run that 124 00:07:32,040 --> 00:07:35,960 Speaker 2: episode as a Saturday Classic, but briefly, because of some 125 00:07:36,240 --> 00:07:40,280 Speaker 2: unspecific treaty language, the United States and the United Kingdom 126 00:07:40,280 --> 00:07:43,960 Speaker 2: were both claiming to control San Juan Island, which is 127 00:07:44,040 --> 00:07:48,720 Speaker 2: east of Vancouver Island and northwest of Seattle. On June fifteenth, 128 00:07:48,800 --> 00:07:52,520 Speaker 2: eighteen fifty nine, an American named Lyman Cutler shot and 129 00:07:52,640 --> 00:07:55,600 Speaker 2: killed a pig that was rooting through his crops. And 130 00:07:55,720 --> 00:07:59,440 Speaker 2: this pig was the property of the Hudson's Bay Company, 131 00:07:59,520 --> 00:08:04,720 Speaker 2: so this became an international incident. As this dispute escalated, 132 00:08:04,880 --> 00:08:07,600 Speaker 2: Robert and a ten man engineering team were sent to 133 00:08:07,640 --> 00:08:11,440 Speaker 2: the island to build fortifications in a camp along with 134 00:08:11,520 --> 00:08:14,400 Speaker 2: a one hundred man army detachment. They built an earthen 135 00:08:14,440 --> 00:08:18,160 Speaker 2: redoubt that was nicknamed Robert's Gopher Hole. In doing so, 136 00:08:18,400 --> 00:08:22,200 Speaker 2: they totally changed the landscape of San Juan Island. Much 137 00:08:22,200 --> 00:08:24,520 Speaker 2: of it had been covered by fir trees which were 138 00:08:24,560 --> 00:08:28,440 Speaker 2: felled to build that redoubt, leaving a prairie behind. The 139 00:08:28,520 --> 00:08:31,440 Speaker 2: Remains of this redoubt are still visible today. It's a 140 00:08:31,520 --> 00:08:35,080 Speaker 2: National Historic Landmark that's part of San Juan Island National 141 00:08:35,200 --> 00:08:39,680 Speaker 2: Historic Park. This redoubt is sometimes credited with helping to 142 00:08:39,800 --> 00:08:43,720 Speaker 2: keep this standoff from turning into an active shooting war. 143 00:08:44,400 --> 00:08:47,920 Speaker 2: It offered cover for cannons from an army steamer that 144 00:08:48,000 --> 00:08:50,440 Speaker 2: had been dragged up a hill, so that made it 145 00:08:50,480 --> 00:08:53,640 Speaker 2: possible for a very small American force to hold the 146 00:08:53,679 --> 00:08:56,920 Speaker 2: island against pretty much any attack that the British could muster. 147 00:08:57,600 --> 00:09:01,160 Speaker 2: But the building process for this did not go very smoothly. 148 00:09:01,600 --> 00:09:04,240 Speaker 2: There was a lot of difficult, dirty labor, A lot 149 00:09:04,280 --> 00:09:07,480 Speaker 2: of it was more physically grueling than the engineers were 150 00:09:07,600 --> 00:09:12,760 Speaker 2: used to. The army detachment was simultaneously frustrated that Robert 151 00:09:12,840 --> 00:09:16,960 Speaker 2: was not rationing out enough whiskey and also able to 152 00:09:16,960 --> 00:09:21,160 Speaker 2: get access to enough illicit alcohol that drunkenness and misbehavior 153 00:09:21,200 --> 00:09:25,200 Speaker 2: were ongoing problems. There were two mutinies, a court martial 154 00:09:25,280 --> 00:09:29,440 Speaker 2: and at least one duel that had to be broken up. Eventually, 155 00:09:29,640 --> 00:09:33,400 Speaker 2: President James Buchanan ordered General Winfield Scott to the island 156 00:09:33,440 --> 00:09:37,000 Speaker 2: to try to restore calm. By that point, Robert's engineering 157 00:09:37,040 --> 00:09:40,079 Speaker 2: team had finished the redoubt and were building other defenses 158 00:09:40,200 --> 00:09:44,880 Speaker 2: and a larger camp. Scott ultimately negotiated a joint occupation 159 00:09:45,040 --> 00:09:48,640 Speaker 2: of San Juan Island, so those defenses and camp facilities 160 00:09:48,640 --> 00:09:51,640 Speaker 2: were no longer needed. Robert was sent back to the 161 00:09:51,720 --> 00:09:54,240 Speaker 2: road project that he had been working on before the 162 00:09:54,280 --> 00:09:58,040 Speaker 2: Pig War, but in April of eighteen sixty Robert asked 163 00:09:58,080 --> 00:10:01,240 Speaker 2: to be relieved of duty. He was chronically ill and 164 00:10:01,280 --> 00:10:04,559 Speaker 2: also frustrated by the work he was doing didn't really 165 00:10:04,679 --> 00:10:06,920 Speaker 2: line up with what he had been studying at West 166 00:10:06,960 --> 00:10:10,840 Speaker 2: Point or hoping to do. Another frustration was what he 167 00:10:10,880 --> 00:10:13,920 Speaker 2: saw as a lack of discipline and protocol in the 168 00:10:13,960 --> 00:10:17,520 Speaker 2: men who were serving under him. Initially, he did not 169 00:10:17,559 --> 00:10:21,080 Speaker 2: get a response to this request, and he became very ill. 170 00:10:21,240 --> 00:10:24,400 Speaker 2: A couple of months later, while trying to blaze a 171 00:10:24,480 --> 00:10:28,840 Speaker 2: pack trail to Fort Vancouver, he finally received word that 172 00:10:28,880 --> 00:10:31,720 Speaker 2: he could return to Washington, d C. Once he was 173 00:10:31,800 --> 00:10:35,360 Speaker 2: relieved by another officer. That happened, and he left in 174 00:10:35,400 --> 00:10:39,400 Speaker 2: September of eighteen sixty. That, of course, was not long 175 00:10:39,480 --> 00:10:41,880 Speaker 2: before the start of the US Civil War, and we 176 00:10:41,920 --> 00:10:44,800 Speaker 2: will get into that after we pause for a sponsor break. 177 00:10:54,559 --> 00:10:57,920 Speaker 2: Brother against brother is one of the cliches that comes 178 00:10:58,000 --> 00:11:00,640 Speaker 2: up a lot around the US Civil War, and the 179 00:11:00,720 --> 00:11:03,880 Speaker 2: Robert family was one that really did have members on 180 00:11:04,040 --> 00:11:08,720 Speaker 2: opposite sides. Henry Martin Robert's father, Joseph, stayed in the North, 181 00:11:08,920 --> 00:11:12,080 Speaker 2: something that most sources attribute to his feelings on the 182 00:11:12,120 --> 00:11:16,960 Speaker 2: issue of slavery. Henry's mother, Adeline, was more conflicted. She 183 00:11:17,160 --> 00:11:19,880 Speaker 2: stayed with her husband, but she still felt a deep 184 00:11:19,960 --> 00:11:23,559 Speaker 2: loyalty to her home state of South Carolina. She really 185 00:11:23,640 --> 00:11:26,240 Speaker 2: hated being cut off from all of her family there 186 00:11:26,280 --> 00:11:30,640 Speaker 2: because of the war. She was also terrified that her brothers, 187 00:11:30,760 --> 00:11:34,120 Speaker 2: who joined the Confederate Army, would wind up facing her 188 00:11:34,200 --> 00:11:38,800 Speaker 2: son Henry in combat because Henry remained with the United 189 00:11:38,800 --> 00:11:39,559 Speaker 2: States Army. 190 00:11:40,440 --> 00:11:43,840 Speaker 1: Although South Carolina seceded from the Union over the issue 191 00:11:43,840 --> 00:11:47,160 Speaker 1: of slavery, Henry Martin Robert's decision to remain in the 192 00:11:47,280 --> 00:11:50,280 Speaker 1: US Army doesn't seem to have been about slavery at all, 193 00:11:50,960 --> 00:11:53,640 Speaker 1: or if it was, that's not something that he left 194 00:11:53,640 --> 00:11:55,720 Speaker 1: any kind of record of in the material that's been 195 00:11:55,760 --> 00:12:01,160 Speaker 1: available to biographers and historians. Robert thought South Carolina did 196 00:12:01,200 --> 00:12:03,760 Speaker 1: have the right to secede, but he also thought that 197 00:12:03,800 --> 00:12:08,080 Speaker 1: if states seceded, they would eventually destroy themselves through factionalism 198 00:12:08,120 --> 00:12:11,440 Speaker 1: and division. Like his mother, he felt a sense of 199 00:12:11,480 --> 00:12:14,080 Speaker 1: loyalty to South Carolina, but he thought it was in 200 00:12:14,120 --> 00:12:18,319 Speaker 1: the state's best interest to preserve the Union. Robert had 201 00:12:18,360 --> 00:12:21,600 Speaker 1: actually been thinking about leaving the army before the Civil 202 00:12:21,600 --> 00:12:24,559 Speaker 1: War started. He had been offered a job as a professor. 203 00:12:25,440 --> 00:12:28,520 Speaker 1: He had also married Helen Marie Thresher in December of 204 00:12:28,559 --> 00:12:32,120 Speaker 1: eighteen sixty. They had been courting for a couple of years, 205 00:12:32,160 --> 00:12:35,000 Speaker 1: with a lot of that courtship happening through letters while 206 00:12:35,000 --> 00:12:38,040 Speaker 1: he was in the Pacific Northwest. But when he heard 207 00:12:38,040 --> 00:12:40,680 Speaker 1: about the Battle of Fort Sumter in April of eighteen 208 00:12:40,720 --> 00:12:44,320 Speaker 1: sixty one, he ended his furlough a week early and 209 00:12:44,400 --> 00:12:47,680 Speaker 1: he went to Washington, d c. He was promoted to 210 00:12:47,760 --> 00:12:51,319 Speaker 1: first lieutenant and assigned to work under Major John G. 211 00:12:51,559 --> 00:12:56,440 Speaker 1: Bernard fortifying the area around the capitol. Robert still had 212 00:12:56,440 --> 00:12:59,720 Speaker 1: not fully recovered from malaria, though, and soon his illness 213 00:12:59,720 --> 00:13:03,360 Speaker 1: was one again, affecting his ability to work, he was 214 00:13:03,400 --> 00:13:06,040 Speaker 1: transferred to Philadelphia, where the work was expected to be 215 00:13:06,120 --> 00:13:09,199 Speaker 1: less strenuous, and then in April of eighteen sixty two 216 00:13:09,720 --> 00:13:13,319 Speaker 1: he was transferred again, this time to New Bedford, Massachusetts, 217 00:13:13,600 --> 00:13:16,040 Speaker 1: where it was helped that the cooler climate would help 218 00:13:16,120 --> 00:13:16,640 Speaker 1: him recover. 219 00:13:17,640 --> 00:13:20,440 Speaker 2: He had an experience while living in New Bedford that 220 00:13:20,559 --> 00:13:24,120 Speaker 2: later led him to study and write about parliamentary law. 221 00:13:24,840 --> 00:13:27,120 Speaker 2: Although some of the details are fuzzy and some of 222 00:13:27,160 --> 00:13:30,320 Speaker 2: the accounts of this are conflicting, there was a meeting. 223 00:13:30,679 --> 00:13:34,319 Speaker 2: It was probably a public meeting, it was probably held 224 00:13:34,360 --> 00:13:38,199 Speaker 2: at a church, and it was probably about the local defenses. 225 00:13:39,080 --> 00:13:41,280 Speaker 1: If you are familiar with the form. 226 00:13:41,080 --> 00:13:44,760 Speaker 2: Of governance known as the New England town meeting, meaning 227 00:13:44,840 --> 00:13:49,280 Speaker 2: that rather than electing a representative government, the entire body 228 00:13:49,320 --> 00:13:53,080 Speaker 2: of eligible voters acts as the town's legislature and open meetings. 229 00:13:53,720 --> 00:13:56,760 Speaker 2: This was not that New Bedford was chartered as a 230 00:13:56,800 --> 00:14:00,319 Speaker 2: city in eighteen forty seven, and by definition of open 231 00:14:00,400 --> 00:14:04,679 Speaker 2: town meetings are four towns, not cities. So New Bedford 232 00:14:04,720 --> 00:14:06,560 Speaker 2: had a mayor and a board of aldermen and a 233 00:14:06,600 --> 00:14:11,400 Speaker 2: common council, but it could also convene more general meetings 234 00:14:11,480 --> 00:14:15,840 Speaker 2: on matters of public good whatever the details of this meeting. 235 00:14:16,240 --> 00:14:19,640 Speaker 2: Robert was elected to serve as its chair, maybe because 236 00:14:19,680 --> 00:14:22,400 Speaker 2: he was there in his officer's uniform so he seemed 237 00:14:22,400 --> 00:14:25,640 Speaker 2: like a logical person to put in charge. Some accounts 238 00:14:25,680 --> 00:14:28,920 Speaker 2: say that this meeting went on for fourteen hours and 239 00:14:29,080 --> 00:14:32,880 Speaker 2: was generally terrible, and others say that it actually didn't 240 00:14:32,960 --> 00:14:36,720 Speaker 2: go all that badly, But Robert wasn't happy about it. 241 00:14:36,920 --> 00:14:39,400 Speaker 2: He wasn't expecting to have to chair a meeting and 242 00:14:39,560 --> 00:14:42,440 Speaker 2: didn't know what to do. In his opinion, his study 243 00:14:42,480 --> 00:14:45,480 Speaker 2: at West Point and his army service had not prepared 244 00:14:45,520 --> 00:14:48,280 Speaker 2: him for this at all. Some things he thought he 245 00:14:48,360 --> 00:14:51,520 Speaker 2: needed to know but didn't know included which motions took 246 00:14:51,600 --> 00:14:55,680 Speaker 2: precedence over others, which were debatable, and which could be amended. 247 00:14:55,960 --> 00:14:59,600 Speaker 2: So he said, quote, I plunged in, trusting to providence 248 00:14:59,640 --> 00:15:02,160 Speaker 2: that the ass Asembly would behave itself. But with the 249 00:15:02,200 --> 00:15:05,520 Speaker 2: plunge went the determination that I would never again attend 250 00:15:05,480 --> 00:15:08,240 Speaker 2: to any meeting until I knew something on the subject 251 00:15:08,520 --> 00:15:13,240 Speaker 2: of parliamentary law. After this experience, he reportedly made himself 252 00:15:13,320 --> 00:15:15,760 Speaker 2: kind of a little quick reference in case he found 253 00:15:15,880 --> 00:15:19,440 Speaker 2: himself in this situation again, just a sheet of paper 254 00:15:19,840 --> 00:15:23,160 Speaker 2: that listed out the types of motions that could be 255 00:15:24,160 --> 00:15:27,480 Speaker 2: put forth during a meeting according to their rank, along 256 00:15:27,520 --> 00:15:30,359 Speaker 2: with which of the motions could be debated or amended. 257 00:15:31,240 --> 00:15:33,600 Speaker 2: He did not start working on the book that would 258 00:15:33,640 --> 00:15:37,200 Speaker 2: become Robert's Rules of Order until a bit later, though. 259 00:15:38,080 --> 00:15:41,080 Speaker 2: The first of Henry and Helen's five children was born 260 00:15:41,080 --> 00:15:44,400 Speaker 2: on April eighteenth, eighteen sixty five. I was a daughter, 261 00:15:44,480 --> 00:15:48,080 Speaker 2: also named Helen, and about four months later Henry asked 262 00:15:48,080 --> 00:15:51,320 Speaker 2: for another transfer. He had been dealing with the effects 263 00:15:51,360 --> 00:15:54,080 Speaker 2: of malaria at this point for more than five years, 264 00:15:54,440 --> 00:15:56,480 Speaker 2: and he needed the help of aids to carry out 265 00:15:56,480 --> 00:15:58,240 Speaker 2: his regular duties in the field. 266 00:15:58,960 --> 00:15:59,720 Speaker 1: He asked to. 267 00:15:59,640 --> 00:16:03,680 Speaker 2: Be sent to the United States Military Academy to teach instead, 268 00:16:04,280 --> 00:16:06,280 Speaker 2: and this request was granted and he was put in 269 00:16:06,400 --> 00:16:09,920 Speaker 2: charge of the Department of Practical Military Engineering at West Point, 270 00:16:10,440 --> 00:16:13,120 Speaker 2: and he taught there until the autumn of eighteen sixty seven. 271 00:16:14,120 --> 00:16:17,800 Speaker 2: That year, Robert was promoted to major and named Chief 272 00:16:17,840 --> 00:16:21,280 Speaker 2: Engineer of the Military Division of the Pacific. He and 273 00:16:21,360 --> 00:16:24,160 Speaker 2: the family moved to San Francisco, where they lived until 274 00:16:24,200 --> 00:16:27,760 Speaker 2: eighteen seventy one. A lot of his engineering work from 275 00:16:27,760 --> 00:16:32,080 Speaker 2: this point on focused on shorelines, rivers, and lighthouses, and 276 00:16:32,160 --> 00:16:35,520 Speaker 2: he worked on some of the infrastructure around the Presidio 277 00:16:35,600 --> 00:16:39,440 Speaker 2: in San Francisco. His time in San Francisco also included 278 00:16:39,520 --> 00:16:42,960 Speaker 2: a lot of work with social, religious and reform organizations. 279 00:16:43,600 --> 00:16:45,960 Speaker 2: He was on the board of trustees of San Francisco's 280 00:16:46,000 --> 00:16:48,960 Speaker 2: first Baptist Church and on the board of directors at 281 00:16:48,960 --> 00:16:53,200 Speaker 2: the YMCA. His work with the Baptist Church included establishing 282 00:16:53,280 --> 00:16:57,120 Speaker 2: Sunday School for Chinese immigrants. This was about a decade 283 00:16:57,200 --> 00:17:00,680 Speaker 2: before the passage of the Chinese Exclusion Act banned all 284 00:17:00,760 --> 00:17:04,480 Speaker 2: immigration from China to the United States, and San Francisco 285 00:17:04,600 --> 00:17:08,119 Speaker 2: had a significant population of Chinese workers, who were frequently 286 00:17:08,160 --> 00:17:12,800 Speaker 2: the targets of racism, discrimination, and violence. He also served 287 00:17:12,800 --> 00:17:16,200 Speaker 2: as treasurer of the Society for the Rescue of Fallen Women, 288 00:17:16,520 --> 00:17:19,639 Speaker 2: which was a ministry that essentially tried to rescue women 289 00:17:19,720 --> 00:17:23,800 Speaker 2: from sex work. Something Robert noticed while working with these 290 00:17:23,880 --> 00:17:27,320 Speaker 2: and other organizations in San Francisco was that there were 291 00:17:27,359 --> 00:17:30,399 Speaker 2: a lot of disputes and a lot of time spent 292 00:17:30,560 --> 00:17:35,960 Speaker 2: in meetings arguing California had become a US territory after 293 00:17:36,000 --> 00:17:39,240 Speaker 2: the Mexican American War ended in eighteen forty eight. It 294 00:17:39,320 --> 00:17:42,120 Speaker 2: had become a state in eighteen fifty, so is still 295 00:17:42,119 --> 00:17:44,919 Speaker 2: pretty new in terms of being part of the United States. 296 00:17:44,960 --> 00:17:49,000 Speaker 2: A lot of people living there were relative newcomers from 297 00:17:49,080 --> 00:17:52,960 Speaker 2: other parts of the US. People all had their own 298 00:17:53,000 --> 00:17:56,000 Speaker 2: ideas about how to do things, and those ideas were 299 00:17:56,040 --> 00:17:59,520 Speaker 2: informed by whether they had previously been living somewhere that 300 00:17:59,560 --> 00:18:05,080 Speaker 2: had been colonized by Britain, France, or Spain, whether they 301 00:18:05,119 --> 00:18:10,080 Speaker 2: had indigenous or African ancestry, what kinds of organizations they 302 00:18:10,119 --> 00:18:14,000 Speaker 2: had experience with. People just all had different ideas of 303 00:18:14,040 --> 00:18:16,040 Speaker 2: how to do things, and they wasted a lot of 304 00:18:16,080 --> 00:18:20,240 Speaker 2: time arguing over the substance of their meetings, but also 305 00:18:20,400 --> 00:18:24,600 Speaker 2: over procedural questions about how the meeting itself should be conducted. 306 00:18:25,240 --> 00:18:28,919 Speaker 2: So Robert thought there really needed to be one uniform 307 00:18:29,119 --> 00:18:32,400 Speaker 2: rule set which could be used all over the United States, 308 00:18:32,760 --> 00:18:35,720 Speaker 2: so that as people moved around and tried to establish 309 00:18:35,760 --> 00:18:39,119 Speaker 2: new organizations and tried to run meetings, they would at 310 00:18:39,200 --> 00:18:42,520 Speaker 2: least all start out on the same page when it 311 00:18:42,560 --> 00:18:45,080 Speaker 2: came to the way that the meeting should be structured 312 00:18:45,119 --> 00:18:46,040 Speaker 2: and organized. 313 00:18:46,760 --> 00:18:49,879 Speaker 1: He started reviewing the books that were already available about 314 00:18:49,920 --> 00:18:54,800 Speaker 1: parliamentary laws, that is, the various rules protocols, standards, and 315 00:18:54,880 --> 00:18:57,600 Speaker 1: points of etiquette that are used to govern meetings of 316 00:18:57,680 --> 00:19:03,840 Speaker 1: legislatures or non legislative organistsations. Those non legislative organizations that 317 00:19:03,920 --> 00:19:07,679 Speaker 1: conduct their meetings according to parliamentary law are often called 318 00:19:07,720 --> 00:19:12,240 Speaker 1: deliberative assemblies. Robert intended for his work to be used 319 00:19:12,640 --> 00:19:18,600 Speaker 1: by deliberative assemblies, not by legislatures. When Robert started this research, 320 00:19:18,880 --> 00:19:22,320 Speaker 1: the major works on parliamentary law in the United States 321 00:19:22,359 --> 00:19:27,240 Speaker 1: included Thomas Jefferson's eighteen oh one Manual of Parliamentary Practice 322 00:19:27,680 --> 00:19:32,119 Speaker 1: and Luther S. Cushing's seventeen forty five Rules of Proceeding 323 00:19:32,280 --> 00:19:35,920 Speaker 1: and Debate in Deliberative Assemblies that was more often known 324 00:19:35,960 --> 00:19:37,320 Speaker 1: as Cushing's Manual. 325 00:19:38,000 --> 00:19:41,440 Speaker 2: Cushing's Manual was in pretty common use, but Robert really 326 00:19:41,440 --> 00:19:44,600 Speaker 2: didn't think either of these works was well suited for 327 00:19:44,720 --> 00:19:50,199 Speaker 2: non legislative bodies. Thomas Jefferson was Thomas Jefferson and Luther S. 328 00:19:50,280 --> 00:19:53,840 Speaker 2: Cushing had been clerk of the Massachusetts House of Representatives, 329 00:19:53,920 --> 00:19:58,920 Speaker 2: so both of their works were informed by working in legislatures. 330 00:19:59,520 --> 00:20:01,879 Speaker 2: He also thought that these rules a lot of the 331 00:20:01,920 --> 00:20:05,560 Speaker 2: time were too specific and too complicated for something like 332 00:20:05,640 --> 00:20:09,919 Speaker 2: a non legislative local organization. And some of the rules 333 00:20:09,960 --> 00:20:14,000 Speaker 2: just were not relevant to those kinds of organizations. He 334 00:20:14,119 --> 00:20:18,040 Speaker 2: also got a copy of the Congressional Manual and John M. 335 00:20:18,080 --> 00:20:21,399 Speaker 2: Barclay's Digest of Rules and Practices of the House, but 336 00:20:21,440 --> 00:20:25,119 Speaker 2: again these were rules for legislatures. That wasn't quite what 337 00:20:25,200 --> 00:20:28,840 Speaker 2: he wanted in the end. In eighteen sixty nine, he 338 00:20:28,880 --> 00:20:31,920 Speaker 2: wrote a brief pamphlet of basic rules, which he had 339 00:20:31,960 --> 00:20:35,199 Speaker 2: printed at his own expense and handed out to friends, family, 340 00:20:35,280 --> 00:20:38,639 Speaker 2: and colleagues. He started working on a short manual that 341 00:20:38,680 --> 00:20:41,600 Speaker 2: would be suitable for wider distribution, but he wasn't able 342 00:20:41,640 --> 00:20:45,080 Speaker 2: to finish it before being transferred to Portland, Oregon, where 343 00:20:45,080 --> 00:20:47,639 Speaker 2: he wound up being a lot busier with his engineering 344 00:20:47,680 --> 00:20:51,440 Speaker 2: work than In late eighteen seventy three, Robert was sent 345 00:20:51,480 --> 00:20:56,440 Speaker 2: to Milwaukee, Wisconsin to oversee the construction of lighthouses around 346 00:20:56,520 --> 00:20:59,560 Speaker 2: Lake Michigan. When he got there at the very end 347 00:20:59,600 --> 00:21:03,360 Speaker 2: of descem much of the lake was frozen and temperatures 348 00:21:03,400 --> 00:21:06,960 Speaker 2: were well below zero fahrenheit. That put a stop to 349 00:21:07,040 --> 00:21:08,760 Speaker 2: pretty much all of the work that had to be 350 00:21:08,840 --> 00:21:13,280 Speaker 2: done outside. His wife and children also stayed behind in Dayton, 351 00:21:13,280 --> 00:21:16,840 Speaker 2: Ohio for a while, and so this finally gave him 352 00:21:16,960 --> 00:21:21,080 Speaker 2: time to really focus on his work on parliamentary law, 353 00:21:21,119 --> 00:21:23,760 Speaker 2: and then he continued that work after the weather warmed 354 00:21:23,840 --> 00:21:26,320 Speaker 2: up and his family got to Milwaukee. 355 00:21:26,359 --> 00:21:29,360 Speaker 1: Henry's wife, Helen, played a key part in this book. 356 00:21:29,840 --> 00:21:32,800 Speaker 1: Henry had written out his rules of order, including rules 357 00:21:32,800 --> 00:21:36,600 Speaker 1: for obtaining the floor and introducing business, types of motions 358 00:21:36,640 --> 00:21:40,719 Speaker 1: and their order of precedence, committees, debates, voting, and officers, 359 00:21:40,960 --> 00:21:44,320 Speaker 1: as well as some miscellaneous rules. But Helen pointed out 360 00:21:44,400 --> 00:21:47,280 Speaker 1: that these rules were only really useful to someone who 361 00:21:47,560 --> 00:21:50,600 Speaker 1: already knew how to run a meeting. People who were 362 00:21:50,760 --> 00:21:53,480 Speaker 1: just getting started would want to know how to convene 363 00:21:53,520 --> 00:21:55,840 Speaker 1: a meeting, how to call it to order, and what 364 00:21:56,000 --> 00:21:57,320 Speaker 1: was supposed to happen from there. 365 00:21:58,200 --> 00:22:00,960 Speaker 2: Henry didn't want people to open the book and think 366 00:22:01,000 --> 00:22:04,320 Speaker 2: it was all just basics though. He was trying to 367 00:22:04,440 --> 00:22:07,960 Speaker 2: update and reform parliamentary law into something that could be 368 00:22:08,119 --> 00:22:11,880 Speaker 2: used and endorsed by respected organizations all around the country. 369 00:22:12,320 --> 00:22:15,080 Speaker 2: But he also saw his wife's point, and he wound 370 00:22:15,160 --> 00:22:18,360 Speaker 2: up writing a second part to the book, titled Organization 371 00:22:18,480 --> 00:22:21,600 Speaker 2: and Conduct of Business, to supplement the rules that were 372 00:22:21,640 --> 00:22:24,480 Speaker 2: in the first part. The finished book was one hundred 373 00:22:24,520 --> 00:22:26,840 Speaker 2: and seventy six pages long, and it was meant to 374 00:22:26,880 --> 00:22:31,200 Speaker 2: be easy to carry around and use. In eighteen seventy five, 375 00:22:31,320 --> 00:22:34,520 Speaker 2: he had this book typeset and four thousand copies printed, 376 00:22:35,040 --> 00:22:38,239 Speaker 2: but he had trouble finding someone to bind and distribute it. 377 00:22:38,920 --> 00:22:41,080 Speaker 2: Robert had written this book because he thought what was 378 00:22:41,119 --> 00:22:44,879 Speaker 2: already available was inadequate, but publishers thought there was no 379 00:22:45,000 --> 00:22:49,600 Speaker 2: way some random military engineer's parliamentary law book would supplant 380 00:22:49,720 --> 00:22:53,360 Speaker 2: Cushing's manual. He finally worked out a deal with publisher 381 00:22:53,520 --> 00:22:56,879 Speaker 2: s C. Griggson Company, in which Robert paid for almost 382 00:22:56,960 --> 00:23:01,119 Speaker 2: all of the binding costs himself. Copies of the book 383 00:23:01,200 --> 00:23:04,440 Speaker 2: were earmarked to give away eight hundred by the publisher 384 00:23:04,520 --> 00:23:07,800 Speaker 2: and two hundred by Robert, and the publisher would pay 385 00:23:07,880 --> 00:23:10,720 Speaker 2: Robert forty percent of the retail price of any of 386 00:23:10,720 --> 00:23:14,120 Speaker 2: the other three thousand copies that were sold. The Pocket 387 00:23:14,119 --> 00:23:17,359 Speaker 2: Manual of Rules of Order for Deliberative Assemblies, or just 388 00:23:17,520 --> 00:23:21,680 Speaker 2: Robert's Rules of Order, sold for seventy five cents. They 389 00:23:21,720 --> 00:23:27,280 Speaker 2: sent those thousand free copies to parliamentarians, schools, and organizational 390 00:23:27,400 --> 00:23:30,720 Speaker 2: leaders all over the United States, and to book reviewers, 391 00:23:30,800 --> 00:23:34,720 Speaker 2: and this book was very well received. In the words 392 00:23:34,760 --> 00:23:37,840 Speaker 2: of A review in a San Francisco newspaper quote, it 393 00:23:37,920 --> 00:23:42,879 Speaker 2: is less cumbersome than Jefferson, more American than Cushing, and 394 00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:47,440 Speaker 2: better adapted than either to the common wants of the masses. 395 00:23:48,240 --> 00:23:51,399 Speaker 2: A review in the Chicago Standard wrote, quote, a book 396 00:23:51,480 --> 00:23:54,399 Speaker 2: more needed has not appeared in many a day. We 397 00:23:54,480 --> 00:23:57,200 Speaker 2: are happy to find that this one meets the case 398 00:23:57,400 --> 00:23:58,240 Speaker 2: so admirably. 399 00:23:59,160 --> 00:24:01,920 Speaker 1: Side note. One of the places that Robert sent free 400 00:24:01,960 --> 00:24:04,920 Speaker 1: copies of his book was the seminary for Friedman, where 401 00:24:04,920 --> 00:24:09,240 Speaker 1: his father worked. Henry's mother, Adeline, died in eighteen sixty six, 402 00:24:09,320 --> 00:24:12,000 Speaker 1: so she never returned to the South after the start 403 00:24:12,040 --> 00:24:14,920 Speaker 1: of the Civil War, but his father had moved south 404 00:24:14,960 --> 00:24:18,040 Speaker 1: in eighteen seventy because of his health. He got a 405 00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:21,800 Speaker 1: job at Augusta Bible Institute, which was one of several 406 00:24:21,840 --> 00:24:25,560 Speaker 1: schools for free black people established by the American Baptist 407 00:24:25,600 --> 00:24:30,280 Speaker 1: Home Mission Society. Joseph Thomas. Robert served as the institute's 408 00:24:30,320 --> 00:24:33,920 Speaker 1: first president. It later moved to Atlanta, and in nineteen 409 00:24:34,000 --> 00:24:38,600 Speaker 1: thirteen it was renamed Morehouse College. Robert sent the free 410 00:24:38,600 --> 00:24:41,760 Speaker 1: books in eighteen seventy seven, when the institute was still 411 00:24:41,800 --> 00:24:42,880 Speaker 1: in Augusta, Georgia. 412 00:24:43,560 --> 00:24:46,720 Speaker 2: We will talk more about his life and Robert's rules 413 00:24:46,760 --> 00:24:59,600 Speaker 2: after a sponsor break Henry Martin. Robert had thought that 414 00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:03,280 Speaker 2: those three thousand copies of his Rules of Order would 415 00:25:03,359 --> 00:25:06,320 Speaker 2: last for two years, but they sold out in only 416 00:25:06,440 --> 00:25:10,239 Speaker 2: six months. Even though he had no formal training as 417 00:25:10,280 --> 00:25:14,080 Speaker 2: a parliamentarian. This meant that he was immediately seen as 418 00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:19,200 Speaker 2: a big authority on parliamentary law. So many people wrote 419 00:25:19,240 --> 00:25:21,840 Speaker 2: to him with questions, and some of those questions were 420 00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:25,840 Speaker 2: very specific. He tried to individually answer all of these 421 00:25:25,960 --> 00:25:28,840 Speaker 2: letters and also to use the kinds of questions that 422 00:25:28,880 --> 00:25:33,680 Speaker 2: people were asking him to inform later revisions and updates 423 00:25:33,720 --> 00:25:37,160 Speaker 2: to his rules. At the same time, though, he also 424 00:25:37,359 --> 00:25:40,439 Speaker 2: encouraged the people writing him to adapt these rules to 425 00:25:40,480 --> 00:25:44,760 Speaker 2: their circumstances and just to approach problems and disputes with 426 00:25:44,880 --> 00:25:49,920 Speaker 2: common sense, patience, and understanding, rather than trying to rigidly 427 00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:54,480 Speaker 2: adhere to rules for their own sake. Also, Robert's whole 428 00:25:54,600 --> 00:25:56,800 Speaker 2: goal here was for people to be able to run 429 00:25:56,840 --> 00:26:00,159 Speaker 2: their meetings efficiently and effectively, and to that end, he 430 00:26:00,280 --> 00:26:04,080 Speaker 2: also wanted to write articles and other material about parliamentary 431 00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:07,320 Speaker 2: law and to create a shorter version of his rules, 432 00:26:07,520 --> 00:26:12,080 Speaker 2: specifically for churches. This led to a dispute with his publisher, 433 00:26:12,160 --> 00:26:15,040 Speaker 2: who was afraid that if he kept reprinting the same 434 00:26:15,119 --> 00:26:18,200 Speaker 2: rules in other publications, he was going to lose control 435 00:26:18,240 --> 00:26:22,280 Speaker 2: over the copyright of his work. As Robert revised and 436 00:26:22,320 --> 00:26:25,240 Speaker 2: added to his rules of order, he also continued to 437 00:26:25,280 --> 00:26:28,840 Speaker 2: serve in the Army Corps of Engineers. In eighteen eighty nine, 438 00:26:28,960 --> 00:26:31,960 Speaker 2: he was appointed to a board of engineers to select 439 00:26:32,080 --> 00:26:35,000 Speaker 2: a site for a port on the Gulf of Mexico. 440 00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:39,280 Speaker 2: The board selected the island of Galveston, Texas as the 441 00:26:39,320 --> 00:26:42,280 Speaker 2: side of this port, and Robert worked on a series 442 00:26:42,320 --> 00:26:45,480 Speaker 2: of jetties to change the way the river water moved 443 00:26:45,560 --> 00:26:48,200 Speaker 2: through the gulf and to make the water deep enough 444 00:26:48,280 --> 00:26:51,000 Speaker 2: for ships to be able to navigate over a sandbar. 445 00:26:52,160 --> 00:26:55,879 Speaker 2: Robert's return home from Galveston was disrupted by the Johnstone 446 00:26:55,960 --> 00:27:00,400 Speaker 2: flood on May thirty first, eighteen eighty nine. Was stuck 447 00:27:00,440 --> 00:27:02,720 Speaker 2: on his train for two days and spent a week 448 00:27:02,760 --> 00:27:05,800 Speaker 2: in Altoona, Pennsylvania before he was able to continue on. 449 00:27:06,800 --> 00:27:09,760 Speaker 2: Prior host Sarah and Deblina covered the Johnstown flood on 450 00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:12,480 Speaker 2: the show in twenty twelve, and we ran that episode 451 00:27:12,680 --> 00:27:16,440 Speaker 2: as a Saturday Classic back in twenty eighteen, but briefly 452 00:27:16,800 --> 00:27:19,160 Speaker 2: an earth and dam owned by the South Fork Fishing 453 00:27:19,200 --> 00:27:23,320 Speaker 2: and Hunting Club failed, causing massive flooding and damage downstream 454 00:27:23,720 --> 00:27:27,280 Speaker 2: and killing more than twenty two hundred people. This flood 455 00:27:27,320 --> 00:27:31,239 Speaker 2: became notorious both for the catastrophic damage and death and 456 00:27:31,400 --> 00:27:35,360 Speaker 2: because of survivor's lengthy and unsuccessful efforts to collect damages 457 00:27:35,400 --> 00:27:39,320 Speaker 2: from the club, whose members included people like Andrew Carnegie, 458 00:27:39,359 --> 00:27:43,879 Speaker 2: Henry Clay Frick, and Andrew Mellin. In February of eighteen ninety, 459 00:27:44,040 --> 00:27:47,840 Speaker 2: Robert was named Engineer Commissioner for the District of Columbia. 460 00:27:48,040 --> 00:27:50,639 Speaker 2: While he was in Washington, d C. He continued to 461 00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:54,480 Speaker 2: focus both on his engineering work and on social reform. 462 00:27:55,200 --> 00:27:58,520 Speaker 2: For example, he didn't think it was feasible to totally 463 00:27:58,640 --> 00:28:02,040 Speaker 2: ban alcohol or sex work, but he saw both of 464 00:28:02,080 --> 00:28:06,320 Speaker 2: them as the causes of various societal problems, so he 465 00:28:06,440 --> 00:28:09,800 Speaker 2: wanted to limit and regulate them. Of course, this was 466 00:28:09,840 --> 00:28:12,240 Speaker 2: something else in his life that was influenced by his 467 00:28:12,359 --> 00:28:15,760 Speaker 2: own religious beliefs, and he also kept working on his 468 00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:20,280 Speaker 2: rules and answering people's letters about them. This added up 469 00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:23,160 Speaker 2: to a lot of work, and Robert left this role 470 00:28:23,280 --> 00:28:27,360 Speaker 2: in October of eighteen ninety one after a doctor diagnosed 471 00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:32,960 Speaker 2: him with neurasthenia brought on by overwork. By the following year, 472 00:28:33,200 --> 00:28:36,520 Speaker 2: Robert's rules had been through twenty one printings, with more 473 00:28:36,560 --> 00:28:40,360 Speaker 2: than one hundred and forty thousand copies in circulation, but 474 00:28:40,480 --> 00:28:43,160 Speaker 2: salees started to drop in eighteen ninety three in the 475 00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:46,280 Speaker 2: wake of the financial panic that year, and his publisher 476 00:28:46,360 --> 00:28:50,200 Speaker 2: also went out of business. Then, on October tenth, eighteen 477 00:28:50,280 --> 00:28:53,720 Speaker 2: ninety five, his wife Helen died suddenly of heart failure. 478 00:28:54,720 --> 00:28:59,120 Speaker 2: Robert continued working, though, including on various defense projects, when 479 00:28:59,160 --> 00:29:03,120 Speaker 2: the Spanish America War started in eighteen ninety eight. By 480 00:29:03,120 --> 00:29:06,200 Speaker 2: that point he was getting close to the army's mandatory 481 00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:09,960 Speaker 2: retirement age of sixty four. He turned sixty four on 482 00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:12,920 Speaker 2: May second, nineteen oh one, and retired with the rank 483 00:29:12,920 --> 00:29:15,840 Speaker 2: of brigadier general, and by that point had also been 484 00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:20,560 Speaker 2: named Chief of Engineers. Robert had been awarded this promotion 485 00:29:20,800 --> 00:29:24,360 Speaker 2: on April thirtieth, nineteen oh one, so just a couple 486 00:29:24,400 --> 00:29:27,600 Speaker 2: of days before he retired, which had involved a considerable 487 00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:31,840 Speaker 2: amount of jockeying. A few years before Chief of Engineers, 488 00:29:31,920 --> 00:29:35,800 Speaker 2: William P. Craighill had retired, Robert and his friend and 489 00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:38,840 Speaker 2: colleague John M. Wilson were the same age, with birthdays 490 00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:43,120 Speaker 2: on May second and October eighth, respectively. In addition to 491 00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:46,360 Speaker 2: being a few months older, Robert had seniority, and both 492 00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:49,560 Speaker 2: men thought that when Craig Hill retired, Robert would be promoted, 493 00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:52,680 Speaker 2: and then when Robert retired, Wilson would be promoted, so 494 00:29:53,320 --> 00:29:56,400 Speaker 2: both men would retire with the distinction and benefits that 495 00:29:56,440 --> 00:29:59,880 Speaker 2: came with the rank of brigadier general. Both of them 496 00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:05,040 Speaker 2: were surprised when Wilson got the promotion instead. Wilson protested 497 00:30:05,040 --> 00:30:08,680 Speaker 2: this decision and then spearheaded a whole campaign, complete with 498 00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:13,160 Speaker 2: newspaper editorials and letters to President William McKinley, to try 499 00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:18,360 Speaker 2: to get Robert promoted before his retirement. McKinley was reluctant 500 00:30:18,400 --> 00:30:21,400 Speaker 2: to allow this because of the precedent that it would set, 501 00:30:21,440 --> 00:30:25,400 Speaker 2: but ultimately Wilson did retire a few months early and 502 00:30:25,560 --> 00:30:27,440 Speaker 2: Robert was promoted. 503 00:30:27,920 --> 00:30:30,959 Speaker 1: A few days after his retirement. On May eighth, nineteen 504 00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:35,200 Speaker 1: oh one, Robert married Isabelle Livingston Hoagland. They went on 505 00:30:35,200 --> 00:30:38,200 Speaker 1: a honeymoon to Cuba, and after they got back, Henry 506 00:30:38,240 --> 00:30:42,880 Speaker 1: started consulting as a civilian engineer. A massive hurricane had 507 00:30:42,920 --> 00:30:47,640 Speaker 1: struck Galveston on September eighth, nineteen hundred. Past hosts covered 508 00:30:47,640 --> 00:30:51,440 Speaker 1: this hurricane in an episode called Five Historical Storms that 509 00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:55,440 Speaker 1: was also a Saturday Classic in twenty eighteen and again briefly. 510 00:30:55,600 --> 00:30:58,880 Speaker 1: Galveston was on a low lying island and this hurricane 511 00:30:58,920 --> 00:31:03,280 Speaker 1: caused a massive storm surge. More than six thousand people died, 512 00:31:03,360 --> 00:31:08,200 Speaker 1: and the city faced immense damage. Henry Martin, Robert Alfred Noble, 513 00:31:08,240 --> 00:31:11,200 Speaker 1: and Henry Clay Ripley were tasked with finding a way 514 00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:14,080 Speaker 1: to protect the city, which they did by building a 515 00:31:14,120 --> 00:31:18,120 Speaker 1: massive sea wall and raising the city. Robert also worked 516 00:31:18,160 --> 00:31:22,280 Speaker 1: on a causeway bridge linking Galveston to the mainland. In 517 00:31:22,360 --> 00:31:25,960 Speaker 1: nineteen eleven, the government of Mexico invited Robert to work 518 00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:28,920 Speaker 1: on improvements to the port of Fronterra in the state 519 00:31:28,920 --> 00:31:33,040 Speaker 1: of Tabasco, and Isabelle went with him. They did not 520 00:31:33,080 --> 00:31:35,840 Speaker 1: get to see this project through to completion, though, due 521 00:31:35,840 --> 00:31:40,400 Speaker 1: to the Mexican Revolution. Resident Porfirio Diaz was forced out 522 00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:44,480 Speaker 1: of office on May eleventh, nineteen eleven. He went into 523 00:31:44,520 --> 00:31:47,840 Speaker 1: exile and the Robertses went back to the United States. 524 00:31:48,640 --> 00:31:51,280 Speaker 1: By this point, there had been a number of updates 525 00:31:51,320 --> 00:31:55,080 Speaker 1: and reprintings of robert Truls of Order. The first one 526 00:31:55,120 --> 00:31:58,160 Speaker 1: to be specifically framed as a revised edition came out 527 00:31:58,160 --> 00:32:02,360 Speaker 1: in nineteen fifteen. In nineteen sixteen, Robert started work on 528 00:32:02,400 --> 00:32:06,400 Speaker 1: a much longer work called Parliamentary Law, which he intended 529 00:32:06,440 --> 00:32:10,120 Speaker 1: for the use of professional parliamentarians and people who taught 530 00:32:10,160 --> 00:32:14,520 Speaker 1: parliamentary procedure. He also worked on a shorter training manual 531 00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:20,160 Speaker 1: called Parliamentary Practice, which included lessons and drills. Parliamentary Practice 532 00:32:20,200 --> 00:32:23,440 Speaker 1: was published in nineteen twenty one, and Parliamentary Law in 533 00:32:23,560 --> 00:32:27,280 Speaker 1: nineteen twenty two. His wife Isabelle and daughter in law 534 00:32:27,320 --> 00:32:29,960 Speaker 1: Sarah Corbin Robert were a very big part of getting 535 00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:33,400 Speaker 1: these books written, as was their friend Mildred Anderson. And 536 00:32:33,480 --> 00:32:36,560 Speaker 1: that was because at this point Robert was advancing in age, 537 00:32:36,560 --> 00:32:39,280 Speaker 1: and he had developed cataracts and hearing laws, and he 538 00:32:39,400 --> 00:32:41,960 Speaker 1: just needed people to help take notes and dictation as 539 00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:45,600 Speaker 1: he wrote out this work. Henry Martin Robert died in Hornell, 540 00:32:45,760 --> 00:32:48,400 Speaker 1: New York, on May eleventh, nineteen twenty three, at the 541 00:32:48,440 --> 00:32:52,920 Speaker 1: age of eighty six. He was buried at Arlington National Cemetery. 542 00:32:53,760 --> 00:32:57,240 Speaker 1: Robert's Rules of Order became the almost ubiquitous manual of 543 00:32:57,240 --> 00:33:02,240 Speaker 1: parliamentary procedure in the United States. Not every organization uses it, 544 00:33:02,360 --> 00:33:04,960 Speaker 1: of course, but there are still a lot of nonprofits, 545 00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:10,280 Speaker 1: student governments, homeowners' associations, and other organizations that rely on it. 546 00:33:10,880 --> 00:33:13,880 Speaker 1: This includes some legislative bodies, like some of the New 547 00:33:13,920 --> 00:33:17,840 Speaker 1: England town meetings that we mentioned earlier. There's some suggestion 548 00:33:18,160 --> 00:33:20,840 Speaker 1: that Robert's Rules of Order did more than just give 549 00:33:21,040 --> 00:33:25,600 Speaker 1: existing organizations a formal framework on how to conduct meetings 550 00:33:25,680 --> 00:33:29,320 Speaker 1: more efficiently and in a more orderly way, that it 551 00:33:29,440 --> 00:33:33,960 Speaker 1: also inspired the creation of new organizations by providing a 552 00:33:34,040 --> 00:33:37,160 Speaker 1: practical reference for how to do it. And the words 553 00:33:37,160 --> 00:33:40,680 Speaker 1: of historian Don H. Doyle, writing an American Quarterly in 554 00:33:40,760 --> 00:33:45,440 Speaker 1: nineteen eighty quote, Robert's remarkable achievement came about because his 555 00:33:45,600 --> 00:33:50,360 Speaker 1: book both stimulated and fed a soaring popular demand for 556 00:33:50,520 --> 00:33:55,280 Speaker 1: parliamentary law. It's definitely true that there was an explosion 557 00:33:55,320 --> 00:33:59,640 Speaker 1: of organizations, especially organizations devoted to some kind of social 558 00:33:59,720 --> 00:34:02,800 Speaker 1: or political reform, in the progressive era of the late 559 00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:07,120 Speaker 1: nineteenth and early twentieth centuries. In other words, after Robert's 560 00:34:07,160 --> 00:34:10,560 Speaker 1: Rules came out, a lot of those letters Robert personally 561 00:34:10,600 --> 00:34:13,160 Speaker 1: answered came from people who were trying to start or 562 00:34:13,200 --> 00:34:18,360 Speaker 1: manage organizations for women's suffrage or racial equality, prohibition, and 563 00:34:18,480 --> 00:34:23,320 Speaker 1: other social and political issues. For example, Carrie Chapman Kat 564 00:34:23,400 --> 00:34:25,480 Speaker 1: once wrote to Robert to say that she had been 565 00:34:25,560 --> 00:34:29,319 Speaker 1: running suffrage meetings with his rules for thirty years. 566 00:34:29,800 --> 00:34:32,840 Speaker 2: At the same time, there have been increasing criticisms of 567 00:34:32,920 --> 00:34:36,520 Speaker 2: Robert's Rules in more recent years. Although he wrote it 568 00:34:36,640 --> 00:34:41,520 Speaker 2: for non legislative bodies, it was informed by existing rules 569 00:34:41,520 --> 00:34:45,680 Speaker 2: for parliamentary procedure. Those had roots that mostly went back 570 00:34:45,680 --> 00:34:48,480 Speaker 2: to the British Parliament. So this comes from a very 571 00:34:48,560 --> 00:34:53,160 Speaker 2: Eurocentric perspective and from the rules of governing bodies that 572 00:34:53,280 --> 00:34:56,400 Speaker 2: were made up exclusively of men at the time. 573 00:34:57,320 --> 00:35:00,279 Speaker 1: Aside from that, even a brief overview of re Robert 574 00:35:00,360 --> 00:35:03,440 Speaker 1: Rules can seem overwhelming to someone who doesn't already have 575 00:35:03,520 --> 00:35:06,520 Speaker 1: a background in it, which can make meetings less accessible 576 00:35:06,560 --> 00:35:10,279 Speaker 1: to newcomers. The twelfth edition of Roberts Rules came out 577 00:35:10,280 --> 00:35:13,120 Speaker 1: in twenty twenty, and it is definitely not a pocket 578 00:35:13,160 --> 00:35:16,760 Speaker 1: sized book. It's eight hundred and sixteen pages long, perhaps 579 00:35:16,800 --> 00:35:20,360 Speaker 1: if you have very big pockets. Roberts Rules in Brief, 580 00:35:20,440 --> 00:35:22,880 Speaker 1: which came out the same year as two hundred twenty 581 00:35:22,880 --> 00:35:27,000 Speaker 1: four pages. There are various quick references in cheat sheets, 582 00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:29,480 Speaker 1: but still all of this can just feel like a lot. 583 00:35:30,120 --> 00:35:33,000 Speaker 1: It's also possible for people to use Robert Trulls in 584 00:35:33,120 --> 00:35:36,080 Speaker 1: bad faith to get their own way or to silence people, 585 00:35:36,680 --> 00:35:39,440 Speaker 1: especially if those other people that are being silenced are 586 00:35:39,520 --> 00:35:43,680 Speaker 1: not as familiar with the rules. Some organizations instead focus 587 00:35:43,719 --> 00:35:48,279 Speaker 1: on methods that emphasize consensus building and collaboration rather than 588 00:35:48,360 --> 00:35:52,040 Speaker 1: formal rule sets, for things like introducing motions, controlling the 589 00:35:52,080 --> 00:35:55,840 Speaker 1: floor voting, and determining when it is acceptable to interrupt 590 00:35:55,880 --> 00:35:57,360 Speaker 1: the person speaking. 591 00:35:57,480 --> 00:36:01,080 Speaker 2: At the same time. Some of the criticisms of are unfounded. 592 00:36:01,400 --> 00:36:05,800 Speaker 2: For example, the US Congress does not use Robert's rules 593 00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:10,520 Speaker 2: of order. Most legislative bodies, apart from things like New 594 00:36:10,520 --> 00:36:14,120 Speaker 2: England town meetings, have their own specific rules. So if 595 00:36:14,120 --> 00:36:16,960 Speaker 2: you are mad about something going on with the Senate 596 00:36:17,040 --> 00:36:19,279 Speaker 2: or House rules in the United States, you're going to 597 00:36:19,360 --> 00:36:23,040 Speaker 2: need to find somebody else to blame besides Henry Martin. 598 00:36:23,120 --> 00:36:23,480 Speaker 1: Robert. 599 00:36:24,000 --> 00:36:28,040 Speaker 2: He is not the cause of philibus. No, he did 600 00:36:28,080 --> 00:36:32,440 Speaker 2: not make that happen in Congress. I have some listener 601 00:36:32,480 --> 00:36:33,600 Speaker 2: mail to take us out. 602 00:36:33,840 --> 00:36:34,440 Speaker 1: Fabulous. 603 00:36:34,840 --> 00:36:39,080 Speaker 2: This is from K and k wrote, Hi, Tracy and Holly, 604 00:36:39,160 --> 00:36:42,680 Speaker 2: I always get excited for disease related episodes because it's 605 00:36:42,680 --> 00:36:47,680 Speaker 2: something I've always found fascinating. In this episode, that episode, 606 00:36:47,719 --> 00:36:50,759 Speaker 2: being the one on measles, turned out to be relevant 607 00:36:50,760 --> 00:36:53,319 Speaker 2: to my academic life, which at the moment is the 608 00:36:53,360 --> 00:36:56,160 Speaker 2: same as my life in general. I'm a PhD student 609 00:36:56,160 --> 00:36:59,279 Speaker 2: in education and am at the stage of knowing enough 610 00:36:59,280 --> 00:37:02,400 Speaker 2: about my dissertation topic to start info dumping at the 611 00:37:02,480 --> 00:37:06,480 Speaker 2: slightest invitation, but not yet to the writing and dedicated 612 00:37:06,520 --> 00:37:11,000 Speaker 2: research stage. I'm studying polio, specifically how it contributed to 613 00:37:11,040 --> 00:37:14,640 Speaker 2: the formation of disabled identity in the United States, but 614 00:37:14,719 --> 00:37:18,440 Speaker 2: also filling in some of the archival gaps what happened 615 00:37:18,520 --> 00:37:22,080 Speaker 2: when someone who wasn't a middle class, white, urban educated 616 00:37:22,200 --> 00:37:25,680 Speaker 2: nine to twelve year old got polio. As part of 617 00:37:25,680 --> 00:37:28,680 Speaker 2: my information gathering, I'm working on a paper on schools 618 00:37:28,800 --> 00:37:32,960 Speaker 2: as sites of healthcare, specifically how schools became trial sites 619 00:37:32,960 --> 00:37:36,200 Speaker 2: for vaccines. So I was delighted to hear you discuss 620 00:37:36,320 --> 00:37:40,880 Speaker 2: measles vaccine trials, and then immediately disgusted but not surprised, 621 00:37:40,880 --> 00:37:43,640 Speaker 2: to hear that disabled children were used as guinea pigs. 622 00:37:44,440 --> 00:37:48,520 Speaker 2: This happens over and over with medical advances, and it's 623 00:37:48,640 --> 00:37:52,279 Speaker 2: horrifying and infuriating, so I really appreciate that you explicitly 624 00:37:52,280 --> 00:37:56,399 Speaker 2: call out the horror and fury. Willowbrook is a notorious 625 00:37:56,520 --> 00:37:59,880 Speaker 2: name in disability history. It was famously the subject of 626 00:38:00,120 --> 00:38:04,400 Speaker 2: an expose film by a young GERALDO Rivera that exposed 627 00:38:04,400 --> 00:38:08,359 Speaker 2: the deplorable and inhumane conditions of the institution, which led 628 00:38:08,360 --> 00:38:11,800 Speaker 2: to public outcry and years of legal cases that eventually 629 00:38:11,920 --> 00:38:16,040 Speaker 2: shuddered the institution. It comes up frequently in my disability 630 00:38:16,040 --> 00:38:18,600 Speaker 2: studies courses, and every single time I have to brace 631 00:38:18,640 --> 00:38:22,040 Speaker 2: myself because it's always worse than I remember. Thank you 632 00:38:22,080 --> 00:38:24,800 Speaker 2: as always for the work you do, and so as 633 00:38:24,960 --> 00:38:27,680 Speaker 2: not to end on a downer, here's some cats. My 634 00:38:27,840 --> 00:38:30,839 Speaker 2: torty baby shark toposts will display her belly, but it 635 00:38:30,920 --> 00:38:33,720 Speaker 2: is such a trap. The two babies on the tree 636 00:38:33,880 --> 00:38:37,880 Speaker 2: are my cat nieces Pesto and Yoki the pastas or 637 00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:40,839 Speaker 2: sisters from the same litter and are spoiled rotten by 638 00:38:40,840 --> 00:38:42,759 Speaker 2: my sibling and sib in law. 639 00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:44,040 Speaker 1: Best K. 640 00:38:45,560 --> 00:38:48,440 Speaker 2: Thank you so much K for this email, which also 641 00:38:48,719 --> 00:38:55,720 Speaker 2: included some potential episode topics related to Kay's dissertation research. 642 00:38:57,960 --> 00:39:04,719 Speaker 2: I very much appreciated this email. These kitty cats so adorable. 643 00:39:06,000 --> 00:39:09,400 Speaker 1: The tummy trap them. I feel lucky because none of 644 00:39:09,400 --> 00:39:11,799 Speaker 1: mine have a tummy trap. I've even our cat that 645 00:39:11,880 --> 00:39:12,840 Speaker 1: came to us feral. 646 00:39:13,280 --> 00:39:13,840 Speaker 2: Uh huh. 647 00:39:13,880 --> 00:39:17,800 Speaker 1: If you can get your hand on his tummy, he's like, oh, relaxing. Yeah, 648 00:39:17,840 --> 00:39:19,440 Speaker 1: and he's the one I would have thought would be 649 00:39:19,520 --> 00:39:20,840 Speaker 1: setting the trap, but he doesn't. 650 00:39:21,239 --> 00:39:23,920 Speaker 2: Yeah. Both of ours do a thing where they flump 651 00:39:23,960 --> 00:39:26,600 Speaker 2: over on their signs and they want to be petted 652 00:39:26,920 --> 00:39:29,840 Speaker 2: kind of aggressively to me, like on the side slash 653 00:39:29,920 --> 00:39:33,520 Speaker 2: slash belly area, and neither of them do the thing 654 00:39:33,600 --> 00:39:41,640 Speaker 2: where they suddenly aggressively attack you. Uh. But they will 655 00:39:41,680 --> 00:39:44,200 Speaker 2: sort of do a thing that is like a little 656 00:39:44,239 --> 00:39:47,640 Speaker 2: bunny kick, but very lightly and like I'm putting my 657 00:39:47,760 --> 00:39:50,760 Speaker 2: teeth on you. I'm not biting you. I'm just putting 658 00:39:50,800 --> 00:39:53,560 Speaker 2: my teeth on you, which is sort of funny to 659 00:39:53,640 --> 00:39:57,799 Speaker 2: me because it's like all of the motions of the 660 00:39:57,800 --> 00:40:02,839 Speaker 2: tummy trap cat bitiness, but like in the most gentlest, 661 00:40:02,960 --> 00:40:07,279 Speaker 2: delicatenest way. It's because they were raised together. Yeah, so 662 00:40:07,320 --> 00:40:09,560 Speaker 2: they've taught each other to temper that behavior and be 663 00:40:09,640 --> 00:40:12,000 Speaker 2: like no, no, if you're playing with me, you're playing 664 00:40:12,040 --> 00:40:15,600 Speaker 2: with me. Yeah, don't be throwing those claws and teeth out. No, 665 00:40:15,840 --> 00:40:18,239 Speaker 2: they're so good. This is why you should always get 666 00:40:18,280 --> 00:40:21,319 Speaker 2: two kittens together. I feel strongly on this issue. Yeah, 667 00:40:20,840 --> 00:40:27,080 Speaker 2: we intentionally when we got them, were looking at rescues 668 00:40:27,760 --> 00:40:31,799 Speaker 2: and intentionally looking for a pair of kittens because we 669 00:40:31,840 --> 00:40:34,520 Speaker 2: did not have any other cats in the house, because 670 00:40:34,600 --> 00:40:37,480 Speaker 2: I had come to Massachusetts with a cat who had 671 00:40:37,840 --> 00:40:41,560 Speaker 2: eventually passed away at the age of nineteen, and so 672 00:40:41,560 --> 00:40:43,400 Speaker 2: since we had no other cats in the house, we 673 00:40:43,480 --> 00:40:48,760 Speaker 2: definitely wanted two kittens together because it is definitely better 674 00:40:48,880 --> 00:40:54,480 Speaker 2: for kittens to have behaviorally, it's so much other cats around, 675 00:40:54,600 --> 00:40:57,799 Speaker 2: so much easier. They had also been taken care of 676 00:40:57,960 --> 00:41:03,200 Speaker 2: by a foster family who, in my opinion, was really good. 677 00:41:04,040 --> 00:41:06,200 Speaker 2: They also had other cats to sort of teach the 678 00:41:06,280 --> 00:41:07,000 Speaker 2: kittens how to be. 679 00:41:07,040 --> 00:41:10,239 Speaker 1: Cats, how to be good citizens. They've taught them cat 680 00:41:10,280 --> 00:41:11,360 Speaker 1: parliamentary procedure. 681 00:41:11,680 --> 00:41:16,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, they know. They know which motions can be 682 00:41:16,400 --> 00:41:20,439 Speaker 2: debated and amended. So anyway, thank you again so much 683 00:41:20,480 --> 00:41:22,719 Speaker 2: for this email. If you would like to send us 684 00:41:22,719 --> 00:41:25,320 Speaker 2: a note about this or any other podcasts or a 685 00:41:25,480 --> 00:41:29,600 Speaker 2: history podcast at iHeartRadio dot com, we're on some social 686 00:41:29,680 --> 00:41:34,680 Speaker 2: media at miss in History, Facebook, the x Thing, Instagram, 687 00:41:34,880 --> 00:41:37,560 Speaker 2: is it right now? And you can subscribe to our 688 00:41:37,640 --> 00:41:40,520 Speaker 2: show on the iHeartRadio app and wherever else you'd like 689 00:41:40,560 --> 00:41:48,600 Speaker 2: to get your podcasts. Stuff you Missed in History Class 690 00:41:48,640 --> 00:41:52,640 Speaker 2: is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, 691 00:41:52,840 --> 00:41:56,400 Speaker 2: visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen 692 00:41:56,480 --> 00:41:57,440 Speaker 2: to your favorite shows.