1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:05,119 Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised. 2 00:00:10,480 --> 00:00:13,080 Speaker 1: The previous two times that the Witchers and the Clements 3 00:00:13,160 --> 00:00:17,040 Speaker 1: stepped into a legal proceeding, they both ended in disaster. 4 00:00:17,600 --> 00:00:20,759 Speaker 1: But Vincent Oliver Witcher hoped that this time things would 5 00:00:20,800 --> 00:00:24,480 Speaker 1: be different. Vincent Oliver and four of his grandsons were 6 00:00:24,480 --> 00:00:28,360 Speaker 1: set to face an examining court of five judges. Witnesses 7 00:00:28,360 --> 00:00:31,120 Speaker 1: would be sworn to tell the truth about what happened 8 00:00:31,200 --> 00:00:35,159 Speaker 1: on Saturday, February twenty fifth, the day James Ralph and 9 00:00:35,280 --> 00:00:40,320 Speaker 1: Johnston Clement were killed. The judges would deliberate and decide 10 00:00:40,360 --> 00:00:42,760 Speaker 1: whether the five witcher Men should be tried in the 11 00:00:42,800 --> 00:00:46,920 Speaker 1: circuit court for premeditated murder, a conviction that would result 12 00:00:47,000 --> 00:00:49,960 Speaker 1: in death by noos for all of the Witcher's on trial. 13 00:00:51,159 --> 00:00:57,840 Speaker 1: There was so much at stake. On March fifteenth of 14 00:00:57,840 --> 00:01:01,040 Speaker 1: eighteen sixty, the seventy eight year old captain was the 15 00:01:01,080 --> 00:01:04,560 Speaker 1: first to face the panel. Vincent Oliver Witcher and his 16 00:01:04,600 --> 00:01:07,319 Speaker 1: grandsons were brought up from the jail to the courthouse 17 00:01:07,360 --> 00:01:11,479 Speaker 1: in Franklin County. This wasn't a country dry goods store 18 00:01:11,640 --> 00:01:15,319 Speaker 1: like Dickinson's where the divorce proceedings took place the month before. 19 00:01:15,920 --> 00:01:18,880 Speaker 1: This was a real court of law, which must have 20 00:01:18,920 --> 00:01:23,000 Speaker 1: been sobering to Vincent Oliver, the once feared politician and 21 00:01:23,120 --> 00:01:29,520 Speaker 1: military hero. Hundreds of people packed into the courthouse. Guards 22 00:01:29,600 --> 00:01:33,119 Speaker 1: stood near the doors. They smartly checked weapons at the door. 23 00:01:33,200 --> 00:01:36,800 Speaker 1: This time, Vincent Oliver had failed to convince his jailers 24 00:01:36,800 --> 00:01:39,600 Speaker 1: to let him keep his weapons because he feared retribution 25 00:01:39,720 --> 00:01:45,560 Speaker 1: from the Clements. The attorney for the Commonwealth of Virginia 26 00:01:45,680 --> 00:01:48,080 Speaker 1: paced the floor as the first witness was called before 27 00:01:48,120 --> 00:01:51,400 Speaker 1: the panel of judges. This time the attorneys were not 28 00:01:51,480 --> 00:01:54,840 Speaker 1: Witchers or Clements, but the list of witnesses was very 29 00:01:54,880 --> 00:01:59,200 Speaker 1: familiar to anyone who had been inside Dickinson's store. Some 30 00:01:59,280 --> 00:02:02,559 Speaker 1: claimed that Vince and Oliver Witcher drew first, some said 31 00:02:02,600 --> 00:02:06,600 Speaker 1: that James Clement did. There were conflicting stories, and all 32 00:02:06,640 --> 00:02:10,320 Speaker 1: of it was biased. James's violence was brought up, as 33 00:02:10,360 --> 00:02:13,720 Speaker 1: well as his fears about reprisal from the Witchers, but 34 00:02:13,960 --> 00:02:16,960 Speaker 1: much of the testimony was based on what witnesses thought 35 00:02:17,160 --> 00:02:21,120 Speaker 1: happened that day in Dickinson's store. Wayne Witcher and I 36 00:02:21,160 --> 00:02:24,200 Speaker 1: talk about the testimony that the five judges heard and 37 00:02:24,280 --> 00:02:28,000 Speaker 1: whether it seemed to point to self defense or premeditation. 38 00:02:29,400 --> 00:02:33,840 Speaker 2: There were individuals who discussed and described his jealousy and 39 00:02:33,919 --> 00:02:37,000 Speaker 2: his bits of rage, And if I heard that, that 40 00:02:37,040 --> 00:02:39,600 Speaker 2: would definitely impress upon me that this was a violent man. 41 00:02:41,440 --> 00:02:44,600 Speaker 1: The court hearing took eighteen days to complete, and each 42 00:02:44,720 --> 00:02:48,000 Speaker 1: day the courtroom was packed with a throng of supporters 43 00:02:48,080 --> 00:02:52,960 Speaker 1: and gawkers. Once testimony concluded, the five judges retired to 44 00:02:53,000 --> 00:02:56,960 Speaker 1: their chambers to consider the evidence. Was what happened at 45 00:02:56,960 --> 00:03:01,200 Speaker 1: Dickinson's store in February self defense or pre meditation? Had 46 00:03:01,240 --> 00:03:04,400 Speaker 1: the Witchers planned to murder James Clement or were they 47 00:03:04,480 --> 00:03:10,919 Speaker 1: simply reacting to protect themselves. The court clerk read the verdict. 48 00:03:12,120 --> 00:03:15,760 Speaker 1: The court, having examined witnesses as well on behalf of 49 00:03:15,800 --> 00:03:19,120 Speaker 1: the commonwealth as of the prisoners at the bar, is 50 00:03:19,200 --> 00:03:22,840 Speaker 1: of the opinion that there is not probable cause for 51 00:03:22,960 --> 00:03:28,080 Speaker 1: charging the said prisoners with the offense afore said, and 52 00:03:28,200 --> 00:03:31,400 Speaker 1: doth order that they be acquitted and discharged of the 53 00:03:31,440 --> 00:03:43,200 Speaker 1: said offense, and go therefore without delay. Later, the Franklin 54 00:03:43,240 --> 00:03:46,680 Speaker 1: County Clerk would declare that of the five judges, two 55 00:03:46,720 --> 00:03:49,200 Speaker 1: wanted to send the case to the Circuit court. So 56 00:03:49,280 --> 00:03:52,400 Speaker 1: the Witchers could be tried for murder. That pair of 57 00:03:52,480 --> 00:03:56,280 Speaker 1: judges was overruled by the other three who voted for acquittal. 58 00:03:56,840 --> 00:03:59,040 Speaker 1: This was not a clear cut case of self defense 59 00:03:59,280 --> 00:04:02,640 Speaker 1: because two judges thought that the Witchers may have actually 60 00:04:02,720 --> 00:04:06,800 Speaker 1: planned to murder James Clement, but the panel only needed 61 00:04:06,800 --> 00:04:10,800 Speaker 1: a majority. But Wayne Witcher says that the other three 62 00:04:10,880 --> 00:04:14,880 Speaker 1: judges probably looked at James's past behavior and concluded that 63 00:04:14,960 --> 00:04:17,480 Speaker 1: the killings were in fact self defense. 64 00:04:18,440 --> 00:04:21,640 Speaker 2: The Lawyers of the Day, which represented the Witcher family, 65 00:04:21,760 --> 00:04:25,560 Speaker 2: brought forward evidence which indicated that James Clement was a 66 00:04:25,640 --> 00:04:29,520 Speaker 2: violent man, and if indeed he did whip his slaves, 67 00:04:29,600 --> 00:04:32,760 Speaker 2: stripped them down and whip them in front of Victoria 68 00:04:32,800 --> 00:04:34,719 Speaker 2: just to make a point to her, that would be 69 00:04:34,760 --> 00:04:38,160 Speaker 2: evidence alone. Just that evidence kind of causes me to 70 00:04:38,240 --> 00:04:40,440 Speaker 2: understand a little bit more why they might ecquit the 71 00:04:40,480 --> 00:04:41,520 Speaker 2: Witchers in that shooting. 72 00:04:42,520 --> 00:04:45,320 Speaker 1: But of course it wasn't unanimous and there were two 73 00:04:45,320 --> 00:04:49,640 Speaker 1: different arguments. Was James violent The answer seems to be yes. 74 00:04:50,120 --> 00:04:53,160 Speaker 1: But did the Witchers plan to kill him because of it? 75 00:04:54,200 --> 00:05:05,680 Speaker 1: I would guess yes. After Vincent Oliver Witcher was released, 76 00:05:05,800 --> 00:05:10,640 Speaker 1: the Commonwealth's Prosecutor reviewed his cases against the captain's four grandsons. 77 00:05:11,080 --> 00:05:13,640 Speaker 1: He concluded that putting the other Witchers on trial would 78 00:05:13,760 --> 00:05:16,839 Speaker 1: likely result in the same verdict and it would be 79 00:05:16,880 --> 00:05:22,280 Speaker 1: a waste of money. Vincent Oliver's grandsons, including Vincent Addison Witcher, 80 00:05:22,520 --> 00:05:26,160 Speaker 1: were all released. There have been rumors throughout the Witchers 81 00:05:26,200 --> 00:05:29,719 Speaker 1: for generations that Vincent Oliver and his family paid off 82 00:05:29,760 --> 00:05:33,440 Speaker 1: the judges to acquit him. Local historian Bill Gurrant says 83 00:05:33,480 --> 00:05:36,000 Speaker 1: that there are a lot of reasons why they might 84 00:05:36,040 --> 00:05:38,240 Speaker 1: have been acquitted, and none of them had to do 85 00:05:38,320 --> 00:05:39,040 Speaker 1: with the evidence. 86 00:05:39,839 --> 00:05:41,960 Speaker 3: I have a friend who's descended from the Witchers, and 87 00:05:42,000 --> 00:05:44,440 Speaker 3: she always brings up the fact that they were acquitted. Yeah, 88 00:05:44,480 --> 00:05:46,760 Speaker 3: well they were acquitted. But I heard a little while 89 00:05:46,760 --> 00:05:49,280 Speaker 3: ago that the rumor that the judge got drunk at 90 00:05:49,279 --> 00:05:51,839 Speaker 3: the Witcher's house night before. I don't know if that's true, 91 00:05:51,920 --> 00:05:54,839 Speaker 3: but let's just say convicting the Witchers might not have 92 00:05:54,880 --> 00:05:57,960 Speaker 3: been such a great You know, if you were a 93 00:05:58,000 --> 00:05:59,880 Speaker 3: judge or a jury, there was going to be an 94 00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:00,960 Speaker 3: intimidation factor. 95 00:06:01,680 --> 00:06:05,800 Speaker 1: Looking over the legal documents, bribes or intimidation don't seem likely, 96 00:06:05,960 --> 00:06:09,440 Speaker 1: but who knows. They just needed three judges to agree. 97 00:06:09,839 --> 00:06:14,800 Speaker 1: It's just another mystery. Wayne Witcher says that politics might 98 00:06:14,839 --> 00:06:17,719 Speaker 1: have played a role, but the evidence against James Clement 99 00:06:18,240 --> 00:06:22,159 Speaker 1: was damning. Wayne says that James seemed like a violent man, 100 00:06:22,200 --> 00:06:25,039 Speaker 1: even if he didn't kill anyone that day in Dicketson's store. 101 00:06:25,600 --> 00:06:28,880 Speaker 2: It's possible that Captain Witcher's political and social connections were 102 00:06:28,960 --> 00:06:31,960 Speaker 2: leveraged in obtaining this not guilty. I had thought that 103 00:06:32,040 --> 00:06:34,800 Speaker 2: was the case in fact, but hearing this other side, 104 00:06:34,920 --> 00:06:38,480 Speaker 2: such violence was seen in James Clement, I can kind 105 00:06:38,480 --> 00:06:41,280 Speaker 2: of understand, you know, why the Witchers were acquitted. 106 00:06:41,880 --> 00:06:46,160 Speaker 1: Bill Grant isn't so sure. He's really skeptical of the decision. 107 00:06:46,600 --> 00:06:50,000 Speaker 3: Maybe they evidence acquitted them, but no Witchers were injured 108 00:06:50,040 --> 00:06:54,320 Speaker 3: in all that, and three Clements were dead and brutally mutilated. 109 00:06:54,320 --> 00:06:56,159 Speaker 3: A murder, I mean sunded to me, like didn't have 110 00:06:56,160 --> 00:06:56,880 Speaker 3: a fair fight to me. 111 00:06:57,279 --> 00:07:00,640 Speaker 1: Bill says that just because Vincent Alliver Witcher was acquitted 112 00:07:00,720 --> 00:07:02,080 Speaker 1: doesn't mean he wasn't guilty. 113 00:07:02,600 --> 00:07:04,599 Speaker 3: Looking at it from history hundred and fifty years later, 114 00:07:04,720 --> 00:07:07,560 Speaker 3: I don't think anybody was surprised they got acquitted, and 115 00:07:07,560 --> 00:07:09,760 Speaker 3: I don't think anybody thought that meant they didn't do it. 116 00:07:11,960 --> 00:07:15,040 Speaker 1: When the verdict was announced that day. Vincent oliver Wicher 117 00:07:15,120 --> 00:07:18,160 Speaker 1: had many supporters in the county courthouse. They let out 118 00:07:18,200 --> 00:07:21,360 Speaker 1: a volley of cheers and offered handshakes to one another. 119 00:07:22,440 --> 00:07:25,480 Speaker 1: A local newspaper praised the captain and his grandsons for 120 00:07:25,560 --> 00:07:29,200 Speaker 1: their coolness during the stressful proceedings. The reporter was sure 121 00:07:29,240 --> 00:07:32,960 Speaker 1: that Vincent oliver Wicher's thousands of admirers would be pleased 122 00:07:33,000 --> 00:07:37,440 Speaker 1: with the judge's decision. The article also included some snarky 123 00:07:37,560 --> 00:07:40,960 Speaker 1: advice for the crestfallen supporters of James Clement and his 124 00:07:41,040 --> 00:07:44,640 Speaker 1: two brothers. It read, it is much to be desired 125 00:07:44,960 --> 00:07:48,000 Speaker 1: that the friends of the fallen will submit with becoming 126 00:07:48,120 --> 00:07:51,960 Speaker 1: resigned to the decision of constituted authorities in the country, 127 00:07:52,520 --> 00:07:56,000 Speaker 1: and that they will suppress any feeling of resentment that 128 00:07:56,120 --> 00:08:01,880 Speaker 1: might arise in their bosoms. That seemed unlikely. The Clements 129 00:08:02,000 --> 00:08:06,160 Speaker 1: were outraged at the judge's decision. Doctor George Clement issued 130 00:08:06,200 --> 00:08:09,600 Speaker 1: a polite but stern public statement about the miscarriage of 131 00:08:09,800 --> 00:08:12,760 Speaker 1: justice and the horror of what happened that day. In February, 132 00:08:13,160 --> 00:08:16,480 Speaker 1: he lamented that the five judges only listened to evidence 133 00:08:16,480 --> 00:08:20,080 Speaker 1: about what specifically happened that day in Dickinson's store. They 134 00:08:20,080 --> 00:08:22,760 Speaker 1: didn't seem to care that his son's reputation had been 135 00:08:22,840 --> 00:08:27,400 Speaker 1: tarnished by the accusations from the Witchers. Doctor Clement wrote, 136 00:08:27,800 --> 00:08:30,600 Speaker 1: it is a matter of deep regret that the evidence 137 00:08:30,720 --> 00:08:33,320 Speaker 1: was not taken down on the trial of the prisoners 138 00:08:33,320 --> 00:08:37,040 Speaker 1: before the examining court. Whether or not discharging them from 139 00:08:37,080 --> 00:08:40,840 Speaker 1: further prosecution was correct. It is not proper, perhaps for 140 00:08:40,920 --> 00:08:44,920 Speaker 1: me to express my opinion if justice has not been done. 141 00:08:45,080 --> 00:08:49,000 Speaker 1: I feel confident that sooner or later, in a higher tribunal, 142 00:08:49,520 --> 00:08:56,200 Speaker 1: it will be during these proceedings. James and Victoria's daughter, 143 00:08:56,320 --> 00:08:59,640 Speaker 1: Lilia Maud, turned one year old after the Witchers were 144 00:09:00,520 --> 00:09:04,400 Speaker 1: James Clement's estate was settled. He had left his daughter 145 00:09:04,520 --> 00:09:07,640 Speaker 1: six thousand dollars, which would be about two hundred thousand 146 00:09:07,679 --> 00:09:11,360 Speaker 1: dollars today. That certainly must have helped her later in life. 147 00:09:12,400 --> 00:09:15,160 Speaker 1: I asked rand Wicher about how the feud affected the 148 00:09:15,200 --> 00:09:17,080 Speaker 1: Witchers after it was all settled. 149 00:09:17,720 --> 00:09:19,240 Speaker 4: So you don't own any. 150 00:09:19,160 --> 00:09:20,280 Speaker 5: Of the old properties. 151 00:09:20,360 --> 00:09:25,319 Speaker 6: Oh no, no, nobody does. No, no, no, they owned all. 152 00:09:25,120 --> 00:09:26,280 Speaker 1: That land around here. 153 00:09:26,400 --> 00:09:27,720 Speaker 4: And then after that shooting. 154 00:09:28,240 --> 00:09:30,240 Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, end up. 155 00:09:30,720 --> 00:09:33,560 Speaker 5: That one event changed it so much. 156 00:09:34,240 --> 00:09:41,040 Speaker 6: Yeah, Well, a millionaire, a multi millionaire. They just like 157 00:09:41,080 --> 00:09:43,920 Speaker 6: I said, the courts and they disbanded. Was three, the 158 00:09:44,000 --> 00:09:46,680 Speaker 6: three of them, and one of them went to Texas, 159 00:09:46,840 --> 00:09:50,360 Speaker 6: and we had a reunion here several years ago, and 160 00:09:50,440 --> 00:09:53,680 Speaker 6: one of them from Texas, out of that family, came 161 00:09:53,760 --> 00:09:56,520 Speaker 6: to the reunion, and they were mault a millionaires. There's 162 00:09:56,920 --> 00:10:00,000 Speaker 6: few too rich. And one of them went to West Virginia, 163 00:10:00,480 --> 00:10:02,520 Speaker 6: and I'm not sure where the third one went, but 164 00:10:02,520 --> 00:10:04,560 Speaker 6: they had to leave this part of country. They couldn't 165 00:10:04,600 --> 00:10:08,079 Speaker 6: live here all because of a little woman. 166 00:10:10,440 --> 00:10:12,880 Speaker 1: But by now we know that it was so much 167 00:10:12,960 --> 00:10:16,400 Speaker 1: more than that. It was about abuse and jealousy and 168 00:10:16,520 --> 00:10:20,199 Speaker 1: lies and child custody. Most of all, it was about 169 00:10:20,240 --> 00:10:24,000 Speaker 1: two people who simply didn't belong together and couldn't sort 170 00:10:24,040 --> 00:10:28,679 Speaker 1: out how to end their marriage peacefully. Wesley Witcher says 171 00:10:28,720 --> 00:10:32,440 Speaker 1: that really nothing in history will change how he feels 172 00:10:32,480 --> 00:10:33,320 Speaker 1: about his family. 173 00:10:34,720 --> 00:10:38,559 Speaker 7: You get the polished version to where we were well 174 00:10:38,600 --> 00:10:43,160 Speaker 7: off landowners, owned like half of Pennsylvania County and had 175 00:10:43,160 --> 00:10:45,920 Speaker 7: a feud over this woman and we weren't going to 176 00:10:45,920 --> 00:10:49,600 Speaker 7: tolerate that, and we got kicked out and we got separated. 177 00:10:49,640 --> 00:10:51,480 Speaker 7: And if it weren't for that, you know we'd still 178 00:10:51,520 --> 00:10:53,120 Speaker 7: have this, So there's a little bit of that in 179 00:10:53,200 --> 00:10:56,120 Speaker 7: the elders. I hear them bemoan that here I am 180 00:10:56,120 --> 00:11:00,280 Speaker 7: in twenty twenty one. I'm very thankful to be a Witchers. 181 00:11:00,320 --> 00:11:04,160 Speaker 1: Desmond Kindrick the Clements relative about Rand's belief that the 182 00:11:04,200 --> 00:11:07,080 Speaker 1: Witcher's lost quite a lot because of this feud, even 183 00:11:07,120 --> 00:11:08,240 Speaker 1: though none of them died. 184 00:11:09,120 --> 00:11:12,960 Speaker 8: Now, what Rand believes is that because of this event 185 00:11:13,440 --> 00:11:17,640 Speaker 8: that the Witcher family was changed forever. They lost a 186 00:11:17,679 --> 00:11:20,080 Speaker 8: lot of land, they to pay people off, they kind 187 00:11:20,080 --> 00:11:20,920 Speaker 8: of disbanded. 188 00:11:21,120 --> 00:11:23,480 Speaker 9: I'm sure, and I've heard that. I've heard that happen, 189 00:11:23,520 --> 00:11:25,520 Speaker 9: and I hate that because, I mean, they were people 190 00:11:25,640 --> 00:11:27,720 Speaker 9: just like the Clements. You know, I don't know a 191 00:11:27,760 --> 00:11:30,080 Speaker 9: lot of the Witcher family, and I would love to 192 00:11:30,160 --> 00:11:32,120 Speaker 9: know more about them. I mean, I really would. I 193 00:11:32,240 --> 00:11:35,080 Speaker 9: have the interest in their family too, not specifically just 194 00:11:35,120 --> 00:11:36,920 Speaker 9: because of the feud, but because of who they are. 195 00:11:37,000 --> 00:11:39,840 Speaker 9: Because I study all these families, They're just another family 196 00:11:39,880 --> 00:11:41,440 Speaker 9: to me, you know that I'm interested in. 197 00:11:46,600 --> 00:11:49,360 Speaker 1: One person that Desmond Kindrick and Wayne Witcher have both 198 00:11:49,440 --> 00:11:54,960 Speaker 1: studied is Victoria's brother, Vincent Addison Witcher. During the Civil War, 199 00:11:55,200 --> 00:12:00,200 Speaker 1: he received accolades for his bravery and his brutality, especially 200 00:12:00,240 --> 00:12:03,920 Speaker 1: his brutality. Wayne Witcher tells me a bit more about 201 00:12:03,920 --> 00:12:08,040 Speaker 1: Addison Witcher. He was a colonel who is nicknamed Clawhammer, 202 00:12:08,400 --> 00:12:11,400 Speaker 1: which sounds terrible, but it was actually because he wore 203 00:12:11,440 --> 00:12:14,199 Speaker 1: a long coat into battle called a clawhammer. 204 00:12:14,720 --> 00:12:14,880 Speaker 10: Well. 205 00:12:14,920 --> 00:12:18,480 Speaker 2: He was involved in the Limestone Cove massacre in Tennessee, 206 00:12:18,800 --> 00:12:22,720 Speaker 2: where Union sympathizers were massacred by his men. He was 207 00:12:22,760 --> 00:12:27,720 Speaker 2: involved in counterinsurgencies in West Virginia, East Kentucky, Southwest Virginia, 208 00:12:27,760 --> 00:12:32,080 Speaker 2: northwest Tennessee. He led a group of men called Witcher's Boys, 209 00:12:32,160 --> 00:12:36,400 Speaker 2: which apparently terrorized areas in the Wayne County, West Virginia area. 210 00:12:37,040 --> 00:12:40,800 Speaker 1: Eventually, Addison Witcher ended up back in court and he 211 00:12:40,920 --> 00:12:41,920 Speaker 1: lucked out again. 212 00:12:42,559 --> 00:12:46,520 Speaker 2: He actually stood trial for ruthlessly murdering civilians, but he's 213 00:12:46,559 --> 00:12:49,960 Speaker 2: found not guilty. He also rode with Jeb Stewart in 214 00:12:50,040 --> 00:12:54,439 Speaker 2: the Battle of Gettysburg. In fact, Jeb Stewart wrote accommodation 215 00:12:54,720 --> 00:12:59,440 Speaker 2: concerning Vincent Addison Witcher. So this man understood battle, he fought, 216 00:12:59,679 --> 00:13:03,040 Speaker 2: and here's the thing. He was hated by the North 217 00:13:03,160 --> 00:13:04,240 Speaker 2: after the Civil War. 218 00:13:04,760 --> 00:13:08,160 Speaker 1: Wayne Witcher and Bill Grant both say that Addison Witcher 219 00:13:08,360 --> 00:13:12,280 Speaker 1: wasn't likely any more violent than other soldiers on both sides, 220 00:13:12,520 --> 00:13:15,920 Speaker 1: because the Civil War was terrible for everyone who fought 221 00:13:15,920 --> 00:13:16,199 Speaker 1: in it. 222 00:13:16,760 --> 00:13:19,160 Speaker 2: The question that I asked looking back at those times, 223 00:13:19,360 --> 00:13:21,360 Speaker 2: is this, until any one of us have had to 224 00:13:21,360 --> 00:13:23,439 Speaker 2: go through the things that they went through, like, for example, 225 00:13:23,480 --> 00:13:26,440 Speaker 2: seeing the sight of dismembered bodies, a smell of blood 226 00:13:26,480 --> 00:13:29,720 Speaker 2: and guts rotting under hot sun, the thunder and shouts 227 00:13:29,720 --> 00:13:33,559 Speaker 2: and anguish screams of the battlefield. Until we've experienced those things, 228 00:13:33,640 --> 00:13:35,760 Speaker 2: we really can't understand what it is that made these 229 00:13:35,800 --> 00:13:36,600 Speaker 2: people who they are. 230 00:13:37,000 --> 00:13:39,120 Speaker 3: It was brutal. I imagine what he would say, is 231 00:13:39,559 --> 00:13:40,920 Speaker 3: just what we had to do. You know, we were 232 00:13:40,920 --> 00:13:43,000 Speaker 3: in a guerrilla warfare here. You didn't know who to trust, 233 00:13:43,040 --> 00:13:44,520 Speaker 3: you didn't know who was on your side. They were 234 00:13:44,600 --> 00:13:48,200 Speaker 3: ambushes and there were people being killed in their sleep, 235 00:13:48,280 --> 00:13:50,240 Speaker 3: and we had to find the people we thought were 236 00:13:50,240 --> 00:13:52,360 Speaker 3: doing it and eliminate them. But it was brutal, and 237 00:13:52,480 --> 00:13:55,440 Speaker 3: it's nothing that I think anybody who's with your family 238 00:13:55,440 --> 00:13:58,480 Speaker 3: member or anyone who's trying to portray the Civil War 239 00:13:58,520 --> 00:14:00,280 Speaker 3: and some romantic terms, they were not going to cite 240 00:14:00,320 --> 00:14:02,360 Speaker 3: these examples because they were whore. 241 00:14:07,880 --> 00:14:11,280 Speaker 1: There are many dramatic stories about Addison Witcher dressed in 242 00:14:11,320 --> 00:14:14,400 Speaker 1: his long black coat, riding his horse up a mountain. 243 00:14:14,920 --> 00:14:17,400 Speaker 1: He was almost mythical by the end of the Civil War, 244 00:14:17,720 --> 00:14:21,520 Speaker 1: and eventually he became more famous than his grandfather, Vincent 245 00:14:21,600 --> 00:14:22,360 Speaker 1: Oliver Witcher. 246 00:14:23,560 --> 00:14:25,840 Speaker 3: Did he strap people's heads to saplings and have them 247 00:14:25,920 --> 00:14:28,440 Speaker 3: yanked off it? I don't know. That may be embellishments, 248 00:14:28,680 --> 00:14:31,480 Speaker 3: but I think he probably was guilty of. As I say, 249 00:14:31,640 --> 00:14:35,760 Speaker 3: there is credible evidence that he committed atrocities. His men did, 250 00:14:35,880 --> 00:14:38,560 Speaker 3: and in some cases they were responding or believe they 251 00:14:38,560 --> 00:14:42,200 Speaker 3: were responding to atrocities. I will say this about Colonel Witcher. 252 00:14:42,480 --> 00:14:46,160 Speaker 3: When he fought at Gettysburg with Stuart in a stand 253 00:14:46,240 --> 00:14:49,400 Speaker 3: up fight, he was very brave. He was commended for it. 254 00:14:49,480 --> 00:14:53,640 Speaker 3: You wouldn't read Stuart's accounting of his performance at Gettysburg 255 00:14:53,880 --> 00:14:56,640 Speaker 3: and think it's the same guy who's going around decapitating 256 00:14:56,880 --> 00:15:00,400 Speaker 3: suspected Yankees in western Virginia. 257 00:15:01,040 --> 00:15:03,840 Speaker 1: Edith Witcher Gordon says that she has heard about claw 258 00:15:03,840 --> 00:15:07,480 Speaker 1: Hammer's reputation for years, but she's always been told that 259 00:15:07,560 --> 00:15:10,480 Speaker 1: her great grandfather was a wonderful family man. 260 00:15:11,120 --> 00:15:14,640 Speaker 11: He was just one of the family. My mother said 261 00:15:14,680 --> 00:15:17,360 Speaker 11: that he stayed dressed up all the time in farm country, 262 00:15:17,400 --> 00:15:20,120 Speaker 11: more than menus, who had on overalls something. But she 263 00:15:20,280 --> 00:15:22,720 Speaker 11: was in awe of him because he was always dressed 264 00:15:22,800 --> 00:15:25,800 Speaker 11: up and welcome to school. She'd like to stop by 265 00:15:25,800 --> 00:15:28,080 Speaker 11: the house. He always would say, come in and get 266 00:15:28,080 --> 00:15:30,520 Speaker 11: warm to the kids. They had to walk a long 267 00:15:30,600 --> 00:15:34,120 Speaker 11: ways to school, and she was impressed by the family 268 00:15:34,200 --> 00:15:35,600 Speaker 11: because of the way they dressed. 269 00:15:38,120 --> 00:15:41,360 Speaker 1: After I returned to Austin, I asked Desmond and Vicky 270 00:15:41,400 --> 00:15:43,920 Speaker 1: separately if they would be interested in meeting over zoom. 271 00:15:44,480 --> 00:15:47,480 Speaker 1: Desmond has had a great interest in Lilia Maud, so 272 00:15:47,600 --> 00:15:50,960 Speaker 1: meeting Vicky was very exciting for him, and Vicky wanted 273 00:15:50,960 --> 00:15:53,480 Speaker 1: to know more about the Clement side of her family. 274 00:15:55,000 --> 00:15:56,920 Speaker 9: And I would like to know her line like, you 275 00:15:56,960 --> 00:15:58,239 Speaker 9: know who her mom. 276 00:15:58,160 --> 00:16:00,280 Speaker 5: Was reading the email because she laid yall. 277 00:16:00,480 --> 00:16:02,600 Speaker 9: I'd love to see that because I don't know anybody 278 00:16:02,600 --> 00:16:04,520 Speaker 9: in that family because they were gone, you know. 279 00:16:04,720 --> 00:16:09,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, Desmond just came on, hold on and he's connecting. Hi, Desmond, 280 00:16:09,680 --> 00:16:10,320 Speaker 1: how are you. 281 00:16:12,120 --> 00:16:14,320 Speaker 12: Nice to meet you. 282 00:16:15,240 --> 00:16:18,520 Speaker 1: After chatting for a little while about both families, I 283 00:16:18,600 --> 00:16:21,160 Speaker 1: ask about James and Victoria's marriage. 284 00:16:21,760 --> 00:16:24,320 Speaker 12: Well, there's no way that she was going to stay married. 285 00:16:24,400 --> 00:16:26,600 Speaker 1: Well, what if she in the eighteen hundreds, I mean, 286 00:16:26,640 --> 00:16:29,320 Speaker 1: we've already talked about how difficult divorce was, what that 287 00:16:29,400 --> 00:16:32,640 Speaker 1: when women do? What if she stayed married to him, 288 00:16:33,200 --> 00:16:33,800 Speaker 1: That's what he. 289 00:16:33,800 --> 00:16:36,480 Speaker 12: Thought she would do, and he thought that she would 290 00:16:36,520 --> 00:16:39,120 Speaker 12: never leave him, And I think he would have gotten 291 00:16:39,160 --> 00:16:41,760 Speaker 12: meaner and meaner, and who knows what would have happened, 292 00:16:41,800 --> 00:16:45,240 Speaker 12: But thank goodness, she did. At the same time, it's 293 00:16:45,360 --> 00:16:48,120 Speaker 12: a tragedy that ended the way it ended, and I 294 00:16:48,160 --> 00:16:50,520 Speaker 12: think that's the way my father looked at it. And 295 00:16:50,560 --> 00:16:52,760 Speaker 12: of course I knew the story of it. I'd heard 296 00:16:52,760 --> 00:16:56,240 Speaker 12: the story many times, but it wasn't dwelled on. It 297 00:16:56,280 --> 00:16:59,320 Speaker 12: was just told to me as a tragedy that it 298 00:16:59,480 --> 00:17:01,760 Speaker 12: ended this That's how it was told to me. 299 00:17:02,280 --> 00:17:06,560 Speaker 1: And all of this mess outcomes what sounds to me 300 00:17:06,600 --> 00:17:11,480 Speaker 1: to be a lovely, sweet woman, Miss pe Lilia Mount, 301 00:17:11,640 --> 00:17:16,160 Speaker 1: who then creates a family that became you and your 302 00:17:16,200 --> 00:17:19,920 Speaker 1: girls in your family. So out of all of this mess, 303 00:17:20,119 --> 00:17:26,200 Speaker 1: you are still this very positive offspring of a terrible marriage. 304 00:17:26,960 --> 00:17:31,399 Speaker 1: Vicki Bordon told us about Lilia Maud, her father's beloved grandmother. 305 00:17:32,080 --> 00:17:33,880 Speaker 1: She heard all about her growing up. 306 00:17:34,680 --> 00:17:37,879 Speaker 12: I knew all about her all my life because she 307 00:17:38,080 --> 00:17:43,119 Speaker 12: was absolutely adorable according to everybody. They lived in Readsville, 308 00:17:43,160 --> 00:17:46,960 Speaker 12: North Carolina. It was a tiny town, but a wonderful town, 309 00:17:47,800 --> 00:17:51,200 Speaker 12: and so my grandmother and grandfather lived on one side 310 00:17:51,240 --> 00:17:53,480 Speaker 12: of the street, and then on the other side of 311 00:17:53,480 --> 00:17:57,000 Speaker 12: the street diagonally, it was where missus P lived. That's 312 00:17:57,040 --> 00:18:03,160 Speaker 12: what they called Pea Y who had ben Leah maud Clement. 313 00:18:03,680 --> 00:18:07,919 Speaker 12: So I had heard stories about her all of my life. 314 00:18:07,920 --> 00:18:12,760 Speaker 12: She was absolutely adorable and everybody loved her very much. 315 00:18:14,520 --> 00:18:17,600 Speaker 1: Jane Borden and her mother say that both Victoria and 316 00:18:17,760 --> 00:18:22,280 Speaker 1: miss Pea felt like family members, not relatives from long ago. 317 00:18:22,840 --> 00:18:25,639 Speaker 10: You know, my grandfather had pictures of Victoria in his 318 00:18:25,720 --> 00:18:29,160 Speaker 10: bedroom and we still have the painting of Lilia, known 319 00:18:29,160 --> 00:18:31,160 Speaker 10: to us as missus P. And I grew up hearing 320 00:18:31,200 --> 00:18:34,400 Speaker 10: stories about missus P because she was really close with 321 00:18:34,480 --> 00:18:38,240 Speaker 10: my grandfather and spoiled him. Every generation only had one kid. 322 00:18:38,400 --> 00:18:40,920 Speaker 10: When he was a teenager, I guess this would have 323 00:18:40,960 --> 00:18:43,720 Speaker 10: been maybe around nineteen thirty or something, he wanted to 324 00:18:43,720 --> 00:18:47,400 Speaker 10: get a motorcycle and his parents wouldn't buy it for him, 325 00:18:47,520 --> 00:18:49,800 Speaker 10: and so he went and asked Miss Pea because she 326 00:18:49,840 --> 00:18:52,560 Speaker 10: spoiled him so and she said she would only get 327 00:18:52,560 --> 00:18:55,479 Speaker 10: it if he would get one with a sidecar and 328 00:18:55,560 --> 00:18:58,159 Speaker 10: drive her around town in it, and she did and 329 00:18:58,200 --> 00:18:58,520 Speaker 10: they did. 330 00:18:59,680 --> 00:19:02,359 Speaker 12: But it was just miss Pa. She did anything in 331 00:19:02,480 --> 00:19:06,760 Speaker 12: everything that my father wanted. Plus she was just adorable, 332 00:19:06,880 --> 00:19:10,080 Speaker 12: and so she obviously had a good childhood because she 333 00:19:10,560 --> 00:19:13,840 Speaker 12: ended up being so wonderful and loving and affection and 334 00:19:13,960 --> 00:19:19,359 Speaker 12: had two fabulous husbands. Victoria's picture hung in my parents' 335 00:19:19,440 --> 00:19:22,440 Speaker 12: bedroom for all my life, as long as I can remember, 336 00:19:23,040 --> 00:19:25,560 Speaker 12: and my father would say, this is who you're named for. 337 00:19:26,000 --> 00:19:29,880 Speaker 12: She was my great grandmother. And then when I got older, 338 00:19:30,119 --> 00:19:31,480 Speaker 12: they told me the story. 339 00:19:31,760 --> 00:19:31,960 Speaker 8: You know. 340 00:19:32,080 --> 00:19:36,080 Speaker 12: They just said it was two wonderful families and Victoria 341 00:19:36,359 --> 00:19:39,480 Speaker 12: was unhappy in the marriage, and that's really all they said. 342 00:19:39,480 --> 00:19:42,000 Speaker 12: And then they said it turned bad in the. 343 00:19:41,880 --> 00:19:49,560 Speaker 1: Courtroom after the murder of her strange husband, Victoria's life 344 00:19:49,760 --> 00:19:55,160 Speaker 1: changed dramatically. Remember when a man named George Berger gave 345 00:19:55,160 --> 00:19:59,760 Speaker 1: a deposition at James and Victoria's divorce proceedings. Ralph clement 346 00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:02,280 Speaker 1: I had to get Burger to admit that his brother 347 00:20:02,520 --> 00:20:07,119 Speaker 1: Samuel and Victoria were actually in love and engaged just 348 00:20:07,240 --> 00:20:10,840 Speaker 1: weeks before she married James. George Burger refused to give 349 00:20:10,880 --> 00:20:11,680 Speaker 1: any information. 350 00:20:12,440 --> 00:20:12,600 Speaker 13: Well. 351 00:20:12,680 --> 00:20:16,639 Speaker 1: In eighteen sixty two, two years after James's death, Victoria 352 00:20:16,840 --> 00:20:21,639 Speaker 1: married Samuel Berger and he formerly adopted Lilia Maud. Burger 353 00:20:21,680 --> 00:20:24,280 Speaker 1: served in the Confederate Army during the entire war and 354 00:20:24,320 --> 00:20:28,600 Speaker 1: then ran a tobacco warehouse in Danville. He and Victoria 355 00:20:28,680 --> 00:20:32,440 Speaker 1: and Lilia Maud eventually moved to South Carolina, where Victoria 356 00:20:32,600 --> 00:20:36,879 Speaker 1: died in eighteen ninety nine at age sixty. Vicki Borden 357 00:20:37,040 --> 00:20:42,080 Speaker 1: asks Desmond what he might know about Samuel and Victoria. 358 00:20:42,160 --> 00:20:44,560 Speaker 4: I know that after they married, they lived over in 359 00:20:44,560 --> 00:20:47,560 Speaker 4: that area around Tosh's for a while, and then they 360 00:20:47,640 --> 00:20:49,400 Speaker 4: just kind of drop off. Now I don't know if 361 00:20:49,400 --> 00:20:51,680 Speaker 4: that's when they went to. What was it Tennessee? Is 362 00:20:51,720 --> 00:20:54,480 Speaker 4: that where Cheesbury. I've got a picture of her tombstone, 363 00:20:54,520 --> 00:20:56,879 Speaker 4: but I've never seen it. I've never been to her cemetery. 364 00:20:56,920 --> 00:20:58,560 Speaker 4: I want to say it's Tennessee. Now I might be 365 00:20:58,600 --> 00:21:00,520 Speaker 4: wrong on thathw No, I don't think so. I think 366 00:21:00,560 --> 00:21:04,000 Speaker 4: it's in Virginia. Oh, is it okay? So after they moved, 367 00:21:04,280 --> 00:21:07,200 Speaker 4: I will say, basically from Pittsylvania County. I just lost them. 368 00:21:07,280 --> 00:21:10,000 Speaker 4: You know, I can remember asking my great aunts because 369 00:21:10,040 --> 00:21:12,680 Speaker 4: they knew her. They remember the jam all and they 370 00:21:12,800 --> 00:21:16,040 Speaker 4: talked about her just like she lived across the road 371 00:21:16,080 --> 00:21:18,640 Speaker 4: from them. I mean, they thought a lot of her. 372 00:21:20,240 --> 00:21:24,040 Speaker 1: Bill Grant says that Victoria apparently never reconnected with his 373 00:21:24,200 --> 00:21:27,160 Speaker 1: relative Buck Gilbert, her former boyfriend. 374 00:21:27,880 --> 00:21:30,840 Speaker 3: So after that shootout, Buck moved from Missouri. My impression 375 00:21:30,920 --> 00:21:32,240 Speaker 3: is he just wanted to say, I just need to 376 00:21:32,320 --> 00:21:34,280 Speaker 3: move away from here. People are crazy, and he moved 377 00:21:34,320 --> 00:21:36,200 Speaker 3: to Missouri and ended up getting killed in the Civil 378 00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:38,640 Speaker 3: War a few years later of a gunshot wound. 379 00:21:38,680 --> 00:21:43,160 Speaker 1: Ironically, and another of Bill's relatives is connected to the Witchers, 380 00:21:43,600 --> 00:21:46,359 Speaker 1: and yet again not connected in a good way. 381 00:21:46,960 --> 00:21:49,240 Speaker 3: It's kind of in my family's history to be killed 382 00:21:49,240 --> 00:21:53,000 Speaker 3: by Witchers. My great grandmother's father was murdered by a 383 00:21:53,040 --> 00:21:56,000 Speaker 3: man named Morton Witcher in eighteen sixty eight. It's funny. 384 00:21:56,119 --> 00:21:57,600 Speaker 3: I mean it's funny in a way because me, you're 385 00:21:57,640 --> 00:22:00,760 Speaker 3: talking about Witcher's killing people. Yeah, I can relate. 386 00:22:01,720 --> 00:22:05,160 Speaker 1: In another interesting side note, Vicki Borden married a man 387 00:22:05,280 --> 00:22:08,320 Speaker 1: with a curious last name. So I asked her daughter 388 00:22:08,480 --> 00:22:09,560 Speaker 1: Jane Borden about it. 389 00:22:10,480 --> 00:22:14,800 Speaker 10: We're also related to Lizzie Borden on my tad's side. 390 00:22:15,520 --> 00:22:19,080 Speaker 10: I haven't done the genealogy on Lizzie, but we come 391 00:22:19,280 --> 00:22:22,880 Speaker 10: from the Bordens of fal River, Massachusetts. Clearly we weren't 392 00:22:22,920 --> 00:22:25,520 Speaker 10: direct descendants of her because she didn't have any children. 393 00:22:25,800 --> 00:22:28,720 Speaker 10: I kind of joke sometimes like, don't cross me and 394 00:22:28,880 --> 00:22:31,879 Speaker 10: related to Lizzie Bordon you know. And I'm related to 395 00:22:32,040 --> 00:22:33,159 Speaker 10: Captain Witcher, you know. 396 00:22:33,320 --> 00:22:33,919 Speaker 11: I mean, it's. 397 00:22:41,280 --> 00:22:44,399 Speaker 14: Praying about today's sermon and what God wanted to say 398 00:22:44,440 --> 00:22:48,760 Speaker 14: to us. I never want to just fill space and 399 00:22:48,880 --> 00:22:51,320 Speaker 14: time with my own thoughts and will not when it 400 00:22:51,359 --> 00:22:54,919 Speaker 14: comes to God's people needing a word from God. And 401 00:22:55,000 --> 00:23:00,520 Speaker 14: sometimes the Lord waits and you have to wait on him. 402 00:23:01,000 --> 00:23:04,240 Speaker 1: Wesley Witcher is a pastor for the North Lewis United 403 00:23:04,280 --> 00:23:08,320 Speaker 1: Presbyterian Church in Tulsa, Oklahoma. He and his daughter Katie 404 00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:11,840 Speaker 1: say that the Witcher reputation might be tough, but the 405 00:23:11,960 --> 00:23:14,600 Speaker 1: generations after them have tried to change that. 406 00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:20,680 Speaker 13: When you have a history of men that commit atrocities, 407 00:23:20,800 --> 00:23:24,119 Speaker 13: a lot of times later generations will try to compensate 408 00:23:24,160 --> 00:23:27,639 Speaker 13: for it. So Uncle Mickey was a preacher, my father 409 00:23:27,880 --> 00:23:31,360 Speaker 13: is a preacher. It's trying to bring that balance back, 410 00:23:31,359 --> 00:23:36,119 Speaker 13: because when you have this extreme families or couples or whatever, siblings, 411 00:23:36,320 --> 00:23:38,639 Speaker 13: they tried to meet the extreme to kind of balance 412 00:23:38,680 --> 00:23:39,879 Speaker 13: it out, if that makes sense. 413 00:23:40,240 --> 00:23:42,720 Speaker 8: And so you think we're hoping the next generation of 414 00:23:42,760 --> 00:23:45,640 Speaker 8: Witchers after this generation was a little calmer. 415 00:23:45,760 --> 00:23:46,720 Speaker 5: Doesn't sound like it, though. 416 00:23:46,760 --> 00:23:50,720 Speaker 8: It sounds like every generation of Witchers had a certain 417 00:23:50,760 --> 00:23:51,399 Speaker 8: wild streak. 418 00:23:51,520 --> 00:23:54,199 Speaker 13: Right all the men, the ladies know we're great, we 419 00:23:54,280 --> 00:23:56,160 Speaker 13: are angels. 420 00:23:57,359 --> 00:23:59,600 Speaker 7: My dad was wild. He was an alcoholic, he was 421 00:23:59,640 --> 00:24:01,840 Speaker 7: a woman eyes or, he cheated on my mom. But 422 00:24:01,960 --> 00:24:04,040 Speaker 7: I didn't know that. I was four when he passed 423 00:24:04,040 --> 00:24:06,600 Speaker 7: and he was in his twenties. But all of that 424 00:24:06,680 --> 00:24:08,760 Speaker 7: kind of they kind of kept that away, and they 425 00:24:08,880 --> 00:24:11,760 Speaker 7: just gave me the goodness, the wholesomeness, the family unit. 426 00:24:12,200 --> 00:24:14,359 Speaker 7: I could hold my head up pretty good with some 427 00:24:14,480 --> 00:24:17,480 Speaker 7: self worth that I have something I can identify with. 428 00:24:18,119 --> 00:24:21,000 Speaker 7: I was never ashamed of my name. 429 00:24:24,880 --> 00:24:28,199 Speaker 1: During our zoom call, I asked Vicky Borden and Desmond 430 00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:32,040 Speaker 1: Kendrick about the cause of the feud. What do you 431 00:24:32,119 --> 00:24:35,600 Speaker 1: do with the story where it seems like the man 432 00:24:36,080 --> 00:24:41,679 Speaker 1: James is terrible, but the response from the Witchers is 433 00:24:41,920 --> 00:24:46,760 Speaker 1: so devastating it is I mean both families got destroyed 434 00:24:46,800 --> 00:24:49,199 Speaker 1: to a certain extent and then had to sort of 435 00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:50,679 Speaker 1: rise up from it. 436 00:24:51,119 --> 00:24:53,320 Speaker 12: I don't think the feud had anything to do as 437 00:24:53,359 --> 00:24:56,560 Speaker 12: a divorce. I think the family was terrified that he 438 00:24:56,720 --> 00:24:58,479 Speaker 12: was going to get the child. 439 00:24:58,680 --> 00:24:59,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it was a custody. 440 00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:03,040 Speaker 12: But then by the time they got to the courtroom, 441 00:25:03,080 --> 00:25:05,879 Speaker 12: I mean, don't leave the funds just beginning, all of 442 00:25:05,920 --> 00:25:08,760 Speaker 12: that was forgotten and it just turned into a free 443 00:25:08,800 --> 00:25:11,200 Speaker 12: for all. That's what I think happened. I don't know. 444 00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:14,480 Speaker 12: Maybe the story is of the times and how it 445 00:25:14,680 --> 00:25:17,879 Speaker 12: compares to the times today, I don't know, but there's 446 00:25:17,880 --> 00:25:20,159 Speaker 12: definitely a story there that hasn't been told. 447 00:25:20,280 --> 00:25:22,160 Speaker 4: Oh yeah, and in the way I see it too. 448 00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:24,359 Speaker 4: Talking about the two sides, you got really three sides, 449 00:25:24,400 --> 00:25:26,359 Speaker 4: because you've got some inside the Witcher side, and then 450 00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:28,399 Speaker 4: you got the truth. Either side is never going to 451 00:25:28,480 --> 00:25:30,800 Speaker 4: know everything that I agree with you one hundred and 452 00:25:30,800 --> 00:25:31,439 Speaker 4: fifty percent. 453 00:25:32,640 --> 00:25:36,119 Speaker 1: Desmond Kendrick has spent his life thinking about the Clement family, 454 00:25:36,760 --> 00:25:40,200 Speaker 1: his family, but for quite a while he didn't want 455 00:25:40,240 --> 00:25:41,800 Speaker 1: to think about the feud at all. 456 00:25:43,040 --> 00:25:45,840 Speaker 9: So for a long time, probably from the time I 457 00:25:45,880 --> 00:25:48,280 Speaker 9: was ten eleven years old, until I was probably in 458 00:25:48,359 --> 00:25:50,800 Speaker 9: my mid twenties. I was kind of ashamed of it 459 00:25:50,840 --> 00:25:53,239 Speaker 9: in a respect. I mean, I would still talk about it, 460 00:25:53,280 --> 00:25:55,159 Speaker 9: but I had a shame on it because of the 461 00:25:55,200 --> 00:25:57,320 Speaker 9: way it happened. And then I got thinking about it 462 00:25:57,320 --> 00:25:59,840 Speaker 9: when I was old enough to understand, why are you 463 00:25:59,880 --> 00:26:02,359 Speaker 9: shamed of this? This happened, and you are gonna have 464 00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:04,000 Speaker 9: to be the one it's going to have to stand 465 00:26:04,080 --> 00:26:06,640 Speaker 9: up and do the respect for it till it will 466 00:26:06,640 --> 00:26:07,480 Speaker 9: be preserved. 467 00:26:08,040 --> 00:26:11,600 Speaker 1: And Desmond has done an incredible job preserving it the 468 00:26:11,600 --> 00:26:14,920 Speaker 1: good and the bad historical facts. Even though he's from 469 00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:17,600 Speaker 1: the Clement side of the feud, he likes to think 470 00:26:17,680 --> 00:26:20,800 Speaker 1: that he has remained objective, and I think he has 471 00:26:20,880 --> 00:26:22,480 Speaker 1: two things. 472 00:26:22,520 --> 00:26:25,520 Speaker 9: Get embellished, obviously to make it look good on your family, 473 00:26:25,720 --> 00:26:28,840 Speaker 9: But on the same token, they may have been trying 474 00:26:28,840 --> 00:26:31,439 Speaker 9: to instill in me how good they were. I'm not 475 00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:34,399 Speaker 9: saying they did or they didn't. But I also saw 476 00:26:34,800 --> 00:26:37,560 Speaker 9: the other side of the fence, so to speak, of 477 00:26:37,800 --> 00:26:40,560 Speaker 9: how the brothers could have been. The Clement brothers could 478 00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:42,679 Speaker 9: have been just as much at fault as the witches. 479 00:26:42,720 --> 00:26:44,919 Speaker 9: And that's my true belief now, that all six of 480 00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:48,880 Speaker 9: them were probably as guilty as the other one. 481 00:26:51,280 --> 00:26:53,760 Speaker 3: The way I like to think about it is an 482 00:26:53,760 --> 00:26:58,639 Speaker 3: insanely jealous man married to a flirtatious woman who perhaps 483 00:26:58,920 --> 00:27:02,359 Speaker 3: in some way in mind pushing his buttons. It's a 484 00:27:02,480 --> 00:27:05,560 Speaker 3: very bad combination, especially when you bring into the mix 485 00:27:05,800 --> 00:27:10,439 Speaker 3: a grandfather who will kill anyone who disrespects his granddaughter. 486 00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:13,239 Speaker 3: I think it was a terrible match, and I think 487 00:27:13,280 --> 00:27:14,359 Speaker 3: there's any question about that. 488 00:27:24,800 --> 00:27:26,000 Speaker 15: I was working my way through the road. 489 00:27:28,119 --> 00:27:31,080 Speaker 9: He called her ain't caring. Was the last Clementine it Mountainview. 490 00:27:31,160 --> 00:27:32,080 Speaker 9: She died in fifty two. 491 00:27:32,320 --> 00:27:37,520 Speaker 15: Is the one talk was talking aboute And this was 492 00:27:37,560 --> 00:27:38,040 Speaker 15: your aunt. 493 00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:40,520 Speaker 9: Well, my dad called her his on heir. Her mom 494 00:27:40,600 --> 00:27:42,800 Speaker 9: and dad were my dad's uncle and aunt. 495 00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:46,119 Speaker 1: In the summer of twenty twenty one, when COVID was 496 00:27:46,160 --> 00:27:48,639 Speaker 1: at a low point, I asked the Witchers and the 497 00:27:48,640 --> 00:27:51,919 Speaker 1: Clements to come together for a reunion, although maybe it 498 00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:54,919 Speaker 1: wasn't really a reunion because most of them had never met. 499 00:27:55,320 --> 00:27:58,399 Speaker 1: About fifteen people were there. Ran and his sister Edith, 500 00:27:58,440 --> 00:28:01,399 Speaker 1: and their brother Homer. Bill Rant was there, who was 501 00:28:01,480 --> 00:28:04,840 Speaker 1: related to Buck. Gilbert, and Wayne Witcher came up from Oklahoma. 502 00:28:05,480 --> 00:28:08,439 Speaker 1: Katie Witcher came RAN's great niece and the reason this 503 00:28:08,480 --> 00:28:11,920 Speaker 1: whole thing started to begin with. And Desmond Kendrick came 504 00:28:12,200 --> 00:28:13,280 Speaker 1: the Clement relative. 505 00:28:15,359 --> 00:28:19,000 Speaker 3: Desmond, how was doctor Clement's first wife? Came to Victoria Smith. 506 00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:22,680 Speaker 9: It's her grandmother. It was her husband's grandmother. I'm sorry, 507 00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:23,960 Speaker 9: she was her great aunt. 508 00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:26,800 Speaker 3: Was the great aunt. She was a great Victorious Smith 509 00:28:26,960 --> 00:28:27,119 Speaker 3: was a. 510 00:28:27,119 --> 00:28:31,240 Speaker 9: Smith, right, Ain't Victoria's dad Albert Smith was a niece 511 00:28:31,440 --> 00:28:32,040 Speaker 9: to Stella. 512 00:28:32,359 --> 00:28:34,960 Speaker 3: Okay, so is there gonna be attested because I'm getting losses? 513 00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:37,320 Speaker 7: Yeah, I consider myself. 514 00:28:42,400 --> 00:28:43,840 Speaker 9: Wake up in the middle of the night all my 515 00:28:43,920 --> 00:28:46,400 Speaker 9: life February twenty fifth, eighteen sixty, you could think of Okay, 516 00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:48,040 Speaker 9: is it the twenty fifth to twenty six, it don't 517 00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:49,960 Speaker 9: matter at three o'clock in the morning, go to sleep, No, 518 00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:50,560 Speaker 9: you've got to go. 519 00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:53,120 Speaker 1: Look, you wake up at three o'clock in the morning 520 00:28:53,280 --> 00:28:57,880 Speaker 1: a lot. Desmond really enjoyed showing the Witchers all of 521 00:28:57,920 --> 00:29:01,000 Speaker 1: the photographs of both of his family, the Clements and 522 00:29:01,040 --> 00:29:03,800 Speaker 1: the Witchers. He's collected these since he was a boy. 523 00:29:04,640 --> 00:29:06,720 Speaker 16: This is the three brothers. Of course they were killed. 524 00:29:07,120 --> 00:29:10,840 Speaker 3: Oh wow, I've never seen that picture before. Did you 525 00:29:10,840 --> 00:29:11,760 Speaker 3: see this brother? 526 00:29:14,600 --> 00:29:21,040 Speaker 9: William was the older one. This is the nanny now 527 00:29:21,120 --> 00:29:23,040 Speaker 9: is telling that she's buried there at Mount View, but 528 00:29:23,120 --> 00:29:24,840 Speaker 9: she is my great great grandfather's nanny as. 529 00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:25,200 Speaker 3: A little boy. 530 00:29:25,440 --> 00:29:28,120 Speaker 1: Wayne Witcher is especially interested in those photos. 531 00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:31,480 Speaker 15: I actually I know my these people that have died 532 00:29:31,520 --> 00:29:33,680 Speaker 15: one hundred and fiftywo hundred years ago, better than I 533 00:29:33,760 --> 00:29:37,160 Speaker 15: know my living relatives, because I have been in the 534 00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:40,520 Speaker 15: records and have seen their lives through those records, and. 535 00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:45,120 Speaker 9: They become real pictures. These people are real, and I 536 00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:47,840 Speaker 9: can see the cemetery where I grew up, where they're buried, 537 00:29:47,840 --> 00:29:49,640 Speaker 9: and I can see it down through a field. Old 538 00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:52,680 Speaker 9: William Witcher had a daughter that married a Napier and 539 00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:55,520 Speaker 9: she's my grandma. So Vince, Old William's my granddaddy too. 540 00:29:56,000 --> 00:29:56,480 Speaker 12: Wow. 541 00:29:56,520 --> 00:29:58,320 Speaker 9: So but she's on my mom's side. 542 00:29:58,400 --> 00:29:59,720 Speaker 5: So, and that is William. 543 00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:04,360 Speaker 15: He's the original essentially, right, Well, he's one of the originals. 544 00:30:04,440 --> 00:30:07,960 Speaker 15: Everybody always says that he was the original, that he's not. 545 00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:11,200 Speaker 1: Katie Witcher hasn't seen this side of the family for 546 00:30:11,280 --> 00:30:13,880 Speaker 1: quite a while, and she's happy she made the trip 547 00:30:13,920 --> 00:30:15,760 Speaker 1: from Oklahoma. 548 00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:20,360 Speaker 13: I haven't visited my Virginia family probably in like ten years, 549 00:30:20,600 --> 00:30:23,360 Speaker 13: maybe more, maybe closer to fifteen, so it's been a 550 00:30:23,360 --> 00:30:25,320 Speaker 13: really long time. I was happy to be with them, 551 00:30:25,320 --> 00:30:29,720 Speaker 13: but I was pleasantly surprised at how open minded most 552 00:30:29,720 --> 00:30:32,720 Speaker 13: everyone was. You know, there's this stereotype about people in 553 00:30:32,760 --> 00:30:35,680 Speaker 13: the South or people that live in the country, like 554 00:30:35,720 --> 00:30:37,320 Speaker 13: they're going to be closed minded and they're gonna be 555 00:30:37,320 --> 00:30:40,640 Speaker 13: a certain way, and they were really cooperative and so sweet. 556 00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:42,680 Speaker 13: I just it was surprising. 557 00:30:45,200 --> 00:30:48,560 Speaker 1: During the reunion, I asked to speak privately with Edith 558 00:30:48,600 --> 00:30:51,800 Speaker 1: Witcher Gordon about the family and about how much they 559 00:30:51,840 --> 00:30:54,920 Speaker 1: were all talking about Vincent Oliver and James Clement and 560 00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:57,880 Speaker 1: Victoria Smith as if they actually knew them. 561 00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:01,320 Speaker 11: It was as if it had last week instead of 562 00:31:01,320 --> 00:31:03,440 Speaker 11: one hundred years ago, and it was as if those 563 00:31:03,480 --> 00:31:06,000 Speaker 11: people were still real when they talked about it. I 564 00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:08,520 Speaker 11: think Southerners do that, though I don't know that that's 565 00:31:08,560 --> 00:31:10,400 Speaker 11: it unusual for a fair family. 566 00:31:10,640 --> 00:31:12,760 Speaker 5: Do you think it is in my family? 567 00:31:12,800 --> 00:31:16,360 Speaker 8: We all talk about, you know, ancestors as much as 568 00:31:16,360 --> 00:31:18,960 Speaker 8: I think y'all might. I think you also have a 569 00:31:19,040 --> 00:31:23,480 Speaker 8: much more interesting history than I have in my family. 570 00:31:23,560 --> 00:31:24,720 Speaker 11: Maybe those dad. 571 00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:30,280 Speaker 1: I've asked the people at this Witcher Clement reunion about 572 00:31:30,360 --> 00:31:33,680 Speaker 1: lessons learned. What is there to learn from something that 573 00:31:33,800 --> 00:31:38,000 Speaker 1: seemed like one tragedy after another. Of course, everyone had 574 00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:38,960 Speaker 1: different answers. 575 00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:41,960 Speaker 2: Those who failed to learn from the mistakes of history 576 00:31:41,960 --> 00:31:44,920 Speaker 2: are doomed to repeat them. And I very much expect 577 00:31:44,920 --> 00:31:48,760 Speaker 2: that the Clement family expected Lilia to stay in that family, 578 00:31:48,840 --> 00:31:51,720 Speaker 2: and the Witchers felt that that child should stay with Mom, 579 00:31:52,120 --> 00:31:55,160 Speaker 2: And so even if it wasn't an issue of honor, 580 00:31:55,280 --> 00:31:58,520 Speaker 2: I think that child custody situation probably brought it to 581 00:31:58,560 --> 00:32:01,600 Speaker 2: a whole new level. Who's been through a child custody 582 00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:05,880 Speaker 2: case understands you go through a divorce, then you're not 583 00:32:05,920 --> 00:32:09,120 Speaker 2: necessarily wanting that child to go with mom or with dad. 584 00:32:09,560 --> 00:32:11,800 Speaker 2: One party or the other feels that that child would 585 00:32:11,840 --> 00:32:14,920 Speaker 2: be best raised in their own household. And keep in mind, 586 00:32:14,960 --> 00:32:17,400 Speaker 2: in those days, it wasn't like these were single families 587 00:32:17,440 --> 00:32:19,640 Speaker 2: living off by themselves. These were clans. You had the 588 00:32:19,680 --> 00:32:21,440 Speaker 2: Witcher clan and you had the Climic clan. 589 00:32:21,960 --> 00:32:22,440 Speaker 5: I don't know. 590 00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:24,240 Speaker 13: I feel like a lot of the moral of the 591 00:32:24,360 --> 00:32:28,560 Speaker 13: story is if you try to defend your name and 592 00:32:28,600 --> 00:32:32,120 Speaker 13: you're trying to protect your family, you're protecting your family's name. 593 00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:34,400 Speaker 13: If you do it too much, you actually end up 594 00:32:34,480 --> 00:32:37,080 Speaker 13: hurting your family's name. And I think that's what we 595 00:32:37,120 --> 00:32:39,400 Speaker 13: see most of all, because at a point, if if 596 00:32:39,440 --> 00:32:42,680 Speaker 13: you're constantly offended or ready for someone to attack, that's 597 00:32:42,680 --> 00:32:44,680 Speaker 13: what you're going to find. And so you see that 598 00:32:44,880 --> 00:32:49,560 Speaker 13: reaction was almost overreactive, of course, and then seeing that 599 00:32:49,800 --> 00:32:52,560 Speaker 13: after that the witcher's lost the land and the money 600 00:32:52,600 --> 00:32:55,920 Speaker 13: and the social status and all these things, and it's like, well, 601 00:32:55,960 --> 00:32:57,880 Speaker 13: what if you had let that roll off your shoulders 602 00:32:57,960 --> 00:33:00,800 Speaker 13: or learned acceptance, that wouldn't be bothered by someone making 603 00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:02,280 Speaker 13: a comment about the whatch your name. 604 00:33:03,080 --> 00:33:08,400 Speaker 2: Look, here's the thing. You cannot allow abusive relationships to continue, 605 00:33:08,440 --> 00:33:10,680 Speaker 2: and the full weight of the law needs to step 606 00:33:10,720 --> 00:33:13,600 Speaker 2: in and defend those who are being abused and to 607 00:33:13,760 --> 00:33:15,800 Speaker 2: prosecute those who are abusing people. 608 00:33:17,160 --> 00:33:21,760 Speaker 1: Domestic Court Judge Dimple Mahultra agrees she's seen an increase 609 00:33:21,760 --> 00:33:25,000 Speaker 1: in domestic violence cases in her court since the pandemic 610 00:33:25,040 --> 00:33:28,800 Speaker 1: started in twenty twenty, and those cases many times involve 611 00:33:28,880 --> 00:33:31,959 Speaker 1: young people and that needs to stop to break the 612 00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:33,680 Speaker 1: pattern of abuse and families. 613 00:33:34,400 --> 00:33:36,360 Speaker 16: You know, I do see a number of young people 614 00:33:36,400 --> 00:33:39,280 Speaker 16: coming in and applying for protective orders. I do see 615 00:33:39,320 --> 00:33:43,640 Speaker 16: a number of young people who are victims of domestic violence. 616 00:33:43,720 --> 00:33:45,680 Speaker 16: And I don't know that it's more prevalent. I think 617 00:33:45,840 --> 00:33:49,600 Speaker 16: domestic violence is just prevalent, it's pervasive, it's an epidemic. 618 00:33:49,960 --> 00:33:52,280 Speaker 16: I think the difference is that we don't talk about 619 00:33:52,280 --> 00:33:56,200 Speaker 16: it with our young people. We don't educate them about 620 00:33:56,240 --> 00:33:56,920 Speaker 16: red flags. 621 00:33:57,680 --> 00:34:01,160 Speaker 1: Judge Maholtra says there needs to be more education in schools. 622 00:34:01,760 --> 00:34:04,520 Speaker 1: She says that young people don't always spot the signs 623 00:34:04,520 --> 00:34:07,720 Speaker 1: of abuse. Sometimes it's hard enough for older adults to 624 00:34:07,800 --> 00:34:08,160 Speaker 1: do that. 625 00:34:09,200 --> 00:34:12,600 Speaker 16: What we don't realize is that batterers are able to 626 00:34:12,680 --> 00:34:16,239 Speaker 16: obtain as much control in the relationship because they are 627 00:34:16,280 --> 00:34:20,360 Speaker 16: able to manipulate and be charming and have this outward 628 00:34:20,440 --> 00:34:23,759 Speaker 16: facade of this person who is calm and with it 629 00:34:23,840 --> 00:34:27,480 Speaker 16: and together. And so parents see that, or teachers see that, 630 00:34:27,680 --> 00:34:30,080 Speaker 16: or others see that, maybe even friends of the victim, 631 00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:32,560 Speaker 16: and they don't you know there, the alarm bells aren't 632 00:34:32,600 --> 00:34:33,280 Speaker 16: going off. 633 00:34:43,600 --> 00:34:45,440 Speaker 5: So Wayne, you haven't been to this one before? 634 00:34:45,560 --> 00:34:45,719 Speaker 13: No? 635 00:34:46,040 --> 00:34:46,239 Speaker 3: I know. 636 00:34:48,960 --> 00:34:49,440 Speaker 12: Over there too? 637 00:34:49,560 --> 00:34:50,240 Speaker 3: Who are those? 638 00:34:51,640 --> 00:34:53,640 Speaker 8: Do you know any of the queens? 639 00:34:53,719 --> 00:34:57,480 Speaker 6: We're buried here somewhere, but that cemetery over there, No, 640 00:34:57,600 --> 00:34:59,680 Speaker 6: it's two different motle families over. 641 00:34:59,480 --> 00:35:03,680 Speaker 1: That we're taking one final trip to the Witcher family cemetery. 642 00:35:04,280 --> 00:35:05,440 Speaker 6: That might be one of them. 643 00:35:06,680 --> 00:35:06,960 Speaker 11: Might be. 644 00:35:08,960 --> 00:35:11,400 Speaker 5: Day, Carol, Can you come over here? 645 00:35:13,200 --> 00:35:14,239 Speaker 3: Can you stand over here? 646 00:35:14,239 --> 00:35:14,520 Speaker 16: Please? 647 00:35:15,200 --> 00:35:17,880 Speaker 8: And Kay, you. 648 00:35:17,920 --> 00:35:18,520 Speaker 4: Come over here. 649 00:35:21,200 --> 00:35:24,080 Speaker 2: My dad would love to see this picture because he 650 00:35:24,239 --> 00:35:25,640 Speaker 2: was a big student of this. 651 00:35:29,760 --> 00:35:32,399 Speaker 5: All right, you are. 652 00:35:32,400 --> 00:35:33,720 Speaker 1: Ready, everybody? 653 00:35:33,760 --> 00:35:34,400 Speaker 9: Look it right at me? 654 00:35:36,080 --> 00:35:40,279 Speaker 11: Okay, you stand over. 655 00:35:41,000 --> 00:35:43,920 Speaker 1: Rand Witcher says he's doing his best to bring honor 656 00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:46,600 Speaker 1: to the family name because people expect it. 657 00:35:47,040 --> 00:35:49,480 Speaker 6: I'm the only Witcher lives here, and I try to 658 00:35:49,520 --> 00:35:53,200 Speaker 6: be a very good pressure to help people do people 659 00:35:53,239 --> 00:35:56,879 Speaker 6: to favor. And I ain't got to be a millionaire yet, 660 00:35:56,880 --> 00:36:01,799 Speaker 6: but I'm working on That's right. 661 00:36:04,719 --> 00:36:07,680 Speaker 1: Vicki and Jane Borden are hard pressed to find anything 662 00:36:07,719 --> 00:36:11,480 Speaker 1: good from this story except for Lilia Maude. But the 663 00:36:11,520 --> 00:36:13,719 Speaker 1: rest of the tale about the feud between their two 664 00:36:13,760 --> 00:36:18,800 Speaker 1: families was just upsetting to everyone who came after Victoria. 665 00:36:19,200 --> 00:36:22,480 Speaker 10: Hearing how much these other people still feel connected to 666 00:36:22,520 --> 00:36:25,520 Speaker 10: this story makes me wonder if maybe it was kind 667 00:36:25,520 --> 00:36:28,799 Speaker 10: of suppressed in my line you asked me earlier, if 668 00:36:28,800 --> 00:36:31,640 Speaker 10: this was something we grew up talking about, or you know, 669 00:36:31,680 --> 00:36:33,480 Speaker 10: maybe Lilia didn't talk about it. 670 00:36:34,280 --> 00:36:37,440 Speaker 1: Bill Garant believes that eventually the story of the feud 671 00:36:37,520 --> 00:36:40,480 Speaker 1: will fade, which is a little bit sad because it 672 00:36:40,560 --> 00:36:42,520 Speaker 1: affected the area so much. 673 00:36:43,320 --> 00:36:46,279 Speaker 3: This feud is part of our local lawyer. I mean 674 00:36:46,320 --> 00:36:49,120 Speaker 3: people know about it, but every generation that passes, fewer 675 00:36:49,120 --> 00:36:51,319 Speaker 3: people know about it or care about it. People like 676 00:36:51,360 --> 00:36:53,680 Speaker 3: Desmond are going to care. But the family here Ran 677 00:36:53,760 --> 00:36:56,839 Speaker 3: and his brother's sister because memories are long, but they 678 00:36:56,880 --> 00:36:57,760 Speaker 3: eventually go away. 679 00:36:58,440 --> 00:37:01,800 Speaker 1: But maybe not. I've noticed some interesting things as I 680 00:37:01,960 --> 00:37:05,600 Speaker 1: visited with the Witchers and the Clements in Virginia. Edith 681 00:37:05,640 --> 00:37:09,960 Speaker 1: Witcher Gordon says that everyone loves a good story, especially 682 00:37:10,000 --> 00:37:14,000 Speaker 1: one involving a dynamic, dramatic family like the Witchers. 683 00:37:15,080 --> 00:37:17,080 Speaker 11: You know you hate to think of Okay, I'm from 684 00:37:17,120 --> 00:37:21,360 Speaker 11: a dull family. I guess I was an English teacher. 685 00:37:21,400 --> 00:37:23,480 Speaker 5: I like drama like that. 686 00:37:23,760 --> 00:37:26,120 Speaker 11: I like stories. I like a plot, whether it's my 687 00:37:26,200 --> 00:37:29,520 Speaker 11: own story or somebody else's. I just find it fascinating. 688 00:37:30,320 --> 00:37:32,759 Speaker 11: You can tell me your name and I don't forget it. 689 00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:34,360 Speaker 11: You'll meet me on the street a day, late and night. 690 00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:36,560 Speaker 11: But I can remember your whole family history if you've 691 00:37:36,560 --> 00:37:36,920 Speaker 11: told me that. 692 00:37:37,840 --> 00:37:40,480 Speaker 1: But Edith says that there are some people who don't 693 00:37:40,520 --> 00:37:44,480 Speaker 1: want you to know anything about their family history, especially 694 00:37:44,520 --> 00:37:46,640 Speaker 1: if it's filled with sordid stories. 695 00:37:47,920 --> 00:37:52,000 Speaker 11: I think the perversity of mankind. No one is all 696 00:37:52,000 --> 00:37:55,480 Speaker 11: good or evil, because if you look back through the 697 00:37:55,520 --> 00:37:58,360 Speaker 11: family history, it's some of the people you want to 698 00:37:58,360 --> 00:38:01,040 Speaker 11: boast of bed okay first one and member of parliament, 699 00:38:01,160 --> 00:38:03,440 Speaker 11: Oh she's one of ours, or you know, this kind 700 00:38:03,440 --> 00:38:05,719 Speaker 11: of thing. But then there are also some of you 701 00:38:05,800 --> 00:38:09,160 Speaker 11: just assume, not claim publicly if you cared about that 702 00:38:09,200 --> 00:38:09,719 Speaker 11: sort of thing. 703 00:38:10,640 --> 00:38:14,319 Speaker 1: But Edith says that in Virginia, your ancestors aren't just 704 00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:19,719 Speaker 1: your ancestors, they're your family, even if they aren't all saints. 705 00:38:20,239 --> 00:38:23,080 Speaker 11: You know, they say southernis we bring out crazy people 706 00:38:23,080 --> 00:38:24,720 Speaker 11: out and set them right on the front poet. Will 707 00:38:25,320 --> 00:38:28,799 Speaker 11: we do the same with that? Criminals issued somebody to 708 00:38:28,800 --> 00:38:30,760 Speaker 11: get it a deail, you set them in the front porch. 709 00:38:31,160 --> 00:38:33,319 Speaker 5: So is there everybody in your family who you feel 710 00:38:33,360 --> 00:38:35,600 Speaker 5: like that about? You don't want to claim. 711 00:38:35,320 --> 00:38:39,000 Speaker 11: No, I just feel like some people have to work 712 00:38:39,080 --> 00:38:41,760 Speaker 11: more through more things than other people. 713 00:38:52,719 --> 00:38:55,960 Speaker 1: Thanks for joining us on tenfold more Wicked on exactly right. 714 00:38:56,320 --> 00:38:59,360 Speaker 1: You can hear the trailer for our next season next Monday. 715 00:38:59,640 --> 00:39:02,080 Speaker 1: It's a story about a missing young woman in nineteen 716 00:39:02,120 --> 00:39:05,440 Speaker 1: thirty Texas, and why her murder was so controversial in 717 00:39:05,480 --> 00:39:09,520 Speaker 1: her small coastal town, and why similar stories are controversial 718 00:39:09,719 --> 00:39:14,680 Speaker 1: even today. So subscribe and download now to tenfold More Wicked. 719 00:39:15,960 --> 00:39:18,600 Speaker 1: My new book All That Is Wicked is available for 720 00:39:18,680 --> 00:39:22,319 Speaker 1: pre order now in hardback and ebooks. More information on 721 00:39:22,360 --> 00:39:23,279 Speaker 1: the audiobook later. 722 00:39:23,640 --> 00:39:24,080 Speaker 5: All That Is. 723 00:39:24,080 --> 00:39:27,360 Speaker 1: Wicked is based on our first season of tenfold More Wicked. 724 00:39:27,920 --> 00:39:30,040 Speaker 1: You might think you know the whole story of killer 725 00:39:30,160 --> 00:39:34,200 Speaker 1: Edward Rulolf's crimes, but there's so much more. My book 726 00:39:34,200 --> 00:39:38,120 Speaker 1: American Sherlock is also available. This has been an exactly 727 00:39:38,200 --> 00:39:43,080 Speaker 1: right tenfold More. Media production producers Jason Whaling, Alexis Mrosi 728 00:39:43,280 --> 00:39:47,720 Speaker 1: and Laura Sobole, sound designer Eric Friend, composer Curtis Heath, 729 00:39:48,040 --> 00:39:53,040 Speaker 1: artwork Nick Toga. Executive producers are Georgia Hardstark, Karen Kilgarriff 730 00:39:53,239 --> 00:39:56,440 Speaker 1: and Danielle Kramer. Follow us on Instagram and Facebook at 731 00:39:56,520 --> 00:40:00,080 Speaker 1: tenfold More Wicked and on Twitter at tenfold More And 732 00:40:00,120 --> 00:40:01,959 Speaker 1: if you know of a historical true crime that could 733 00:40:02,000 --> 00:40:06,800 Speaker 1: use some attention, email us at info at Tenpolemarmedia dot com. 734 00:40:07,280 --> 00:40:12,200 Speaker 1: Subscribe now on Amazon Music, Stitcher, Apple podcasts, or wherever 735 00:40:12,239 --> 00:40:13,040 Speaker 1: you like to listen.