WEBVTT - Thinking Sideways: The Sodder Children 0:00:00.200 --> 0:00:02.680 Thinking Sideways. It is not brought to you by Asia's 0:00:02.680 --> 0:00:06.760 in top Hats. Instead, it's supported by the generous contributions 0:00:06.760 --> 0:00:10.680 of people like you, our listeners on Patreon. Visit patreon 0:00:10.760 --> 0:00:17.920 dot com slash thinking sideways to learn more Thinking Sideways. 0:00:19.040 --> 0:00:29.760 I don't think it stories of things we simply don't 0:00:29.760 --> 0:00:34.879 know the answer too. Hey everybody, and welcome again to 0:00:34.920 --> 0:00:39.720 another episode of Thinking Sideways. I am Steve as always, 0:00:39.720 --> 0:00:44.640 of course, joined by Devon, Joe and once again, actually 0:00:44.720 --> 0:00:46.479 I guess this week we are what is This is 0:00:46.560 --> 0:00:50.800 the third week of Thinking Sideways. Most wanted something like that, 0:00:50.880 --> 0:00:54.680 so this is the third most second runner up. However, 0:00:54.800 --> 0:00:57.960 Devon calls it it's the third most requesting episode. Yeah, 0:00:58.040 --> 0:01:01.080 and it's this is actually a big one that's been 0:01:01.280 --> 0:01:04.240 actually got a big, huge write up in Smithsonian magazine. 0:01:04.280 --> 0:01:06.880 It does, it does well. We're gonna talk about is 0:01:07.000 --> 0:01:11.640 the Solder children. Yeah, mysterious missing Sodder children. Yes, um, 0:01:12.000 --> 0:01:14.960 and I gotta I gotta tell you right from the outside, 0:01:15.319 --> 0:01:17.000 I never really thought there was a whole lot to 0:01:17.080 --> 0:01:19.160 this story. I think that's one of the reasons that 0:01:19.280 --> 0:01:22.880 I was never inclined to do it. But once you 0:01:22.959 --> 0:01:26.679 get into it, you find some details. But I think 0:01:27.160 --> 0:01:30.600 part of my problem with the story is it's got 0:01:30.640 --> 0:01:33.199 a lot of what we here in this room would 0:01:33.280 --> 0:01:41.480 call shoddy retellings or very edited retellings for sensation. And unfortunately, 0:01:41.520 --> 0:01:44.560 the one of the protagonists of the father in this 0:01:44.600 --> 0:01:46.800 case was I think Sicilian, and so a lot of 0:01:46.800 --> 0:01:50.440 people automatically assumed the mafia connection. Yeah, there's a very 0:01:50.680 --> 0:01:54.640 bunch of stuff that went on, and so it's kind of, 0:01:54.640 --> 0:01:58.720 in my mind, inflated the story. And because of that, 0:01:59.600 --> 0:02:01.360 anybody needs to listen to the show for amount of 0:02:01.360 --> 0:02:02.880 time knows that when I get a story like this, 0:02:02.960 --> 0:02:07.000 I love to tell the fantastic version and then pull 0:02:07.040 --> 0:02:09.160 in reality after the fact. But I want to do 0:02:09.240 --> 0:02:11.280 that today. I kind of instead want to take the 0:02:11.320 --> 0:02:14.840 track of here's what happened. These are the bits that 0:02:14.840 --> 0:02:16.880 you're gonna get told, and then we're going to bring 0:02:16.919 --> 0:02:20.079 in reality as we stepped through each piece of the story. 0:02:21.080 --> 0:02:23.960 We're just gonna leave out this stuff that is obviously 0:02:24.000 --> 0:02:26.320 not true. Well, yeah, when there's there are going to 0:02:26.400 --> 0:02:27.800 be things that are gonna get left out in this 0:02:27.880 --> 0:02:32.880 telling because I cannot in any way, shape or form 0:02:33.000 --> 0:02:37.040 validated can't. I can't say, well that really happened, because 0:02:37.240 --> 0:02:39.519 I don't know when that was introduced to the story. 0:02:40.120 --> 0:02:42.040 Was that there in the beginning or not? So what 0:02:42.080 --> 0:02:46.080 about the UFOs? I I have to leave those out, 0:02:46.120 --> 0:02:47.960 but I do want to tell folks who are really 0:02:48.000 --> 0:02:49.799 really interested in the story, you've done a lot of 0:02:49.840 --> 0:02:51.639 reading on it, there are going to be parts that 0:02:51.680 --> 0:02:53.959 aren't in there, and that's because I've left them out 0:02:54.120 --> 0:02:56.400 because I can't prove that they actually have. Yeah, we 0:02:56.440 --> 0:02:58.960 do that a lot, and we don't usually add this disclaimer, 0:02:59.000 --> 0:03:01.120 but I think they on some of the feedback that 0:03:01.160 --> 0:03:04.000 we've been getting, we're going to start letting people know 0:03:04.120 --> 0:03:09.000 when we're doing that, because it's it's not as you know, 0:03:09.080 --> 0:03:12.360 but we've seen it and we just don't think it 0:03:12.440 --> 0:03:15.440 is it really worthwhile to add it to the story. Well, 0:03:15.440 --> 0:03:18.480 when you see it written exactly the same every time 0:03:19.080 --> 0:03:22.680 over the entire course of the Internet, it makes me 0:03:22.760 --> 0:03:26.320 start to question if it wasn't just a continual copy paste, 0:03:28.200 --> 0:03:30.640 especially when it happens to also be missing from like 0:03:30.720 --> 0:03:32.960 the more reputable sources. But it's in all of the 0:03:33.080 --> 0:03:37.360 like black background, white text. You starts to be a 0:03:37.440 --> 0:03:40.440 kind of an indicator. Yeah, okay, started in wonder some 0:03:40.520 --> 0:03:43.480 of these unsolved mystery pages are just bots. When they're 0:03:43.520 --> 0:03:46.560 not even people go on grab that grab the text 0:03:46.600 --> 0:03:49.680 from another page's I think, so all right, Well, I 0:03:49.720 --> 0:03:52.600 think we've had you know, enough of a disclamer. Probably 0:03:52.600 --> 0:03:56.680 get into the story yet. Okay. Our story begins on 0:03:56.800 --> 0:04:01.640 Christmas Eve in Fayetteville, West Virginia. We are at the 0:04:01.720 --> 0:04:05.440 home of George and Jeanie Sauder, who have ten children, 0:04:06.200 --> 0:04:09.160 huge family of kids. Nine of the kids were home, 0:04:09.600 --> 0:04:12.920 the tenth was away in the army. It's Christmas Eve. 0:04:13.360 --> 0:04:15.360 Mom and dad have let some of the kids open 0:04:15.440 --> 0:04:17.960 some presents. Those kids say, hey, can we stay up 0:04:18.000 --> 0:04:20.040 late and play with some presents? And they say, well, yeah, 0:04:20.040 --> 0:04:22.239 that's fine, as long as you block up and shut 0:04:22.240 --> 0:04:26.159 everything down tonight before you go to bed. Yeah, totally. 0:04:26.160 --> 0:04:29.360 It's Christmas Eve? Why not? Yeah? Man? About midnight, the 0:04:29.400 --> 0:04:32.760 phone rings and missus Sauder gets up and answers it, 0:04:33.000 --> 0:04:38.400 and somebody said, is your refrigerator running? No? No, they 0:04:38.480 --> 0:04:41.640 asked for somebody that didn't live at the house, and 0:04:41.680 --> 0:04:43.880 so she of course said, no, you got the wrong number. 0:04:44.240 --> 0:04:48.280 Person said okay and hung up. That's creepy and mysterious 0:04:48.400 --> 0:04:50.960 and when she when she was done on the phone, 0:04:51.080 --> 0:04:54.720 she realized that the kids, being kids, hadn't done what 0:04:54.800 --> 0:04:57.880 they were supposed to. The lights were on and the 0:04:57.920 --> 0:05:02.440 door was unlocked, and her old one of her daughters, Marian, 0:05:02.839 --> 0:05:07.000 was asleep on the couch. She goes, shuts everything down, 0:05:07.160 --> 0:05:10.640 locks it up, goes to bed, she says. She remembers 0:05:10.800 --> 0:05:14.279 as she was in bed falling asleep again, she heard 0:05:14.320 --> 0:05:16.720 something hit the roof or sounded like it hit the 0:05:16.760 --> 0:05:21.559 roof and rolled off, and then she would sleep, yeah somewhere. Sorry, 0:05:21.520 --> 0:05:24.240 I guess, I just I'm not totally sure why the 0:05:24.279 --> 0:05:27.120 door would have been unlocked anyway, Like, why wouldn't she 0:05:27.200 --> 0:05:29.320 just say, okay, make sure to turn. It's not like 0:05:29.360 --> 0:05:32.119 the kids were playing outside with their toys, just locked 0:05:32.160 --> 0:05:34.560 the door. When you put up as your as a parent, 0:05:34.680 --> 0:05:36.960 that's that's a good point. But these are back in 0:05:37.000 --> 0:05:38.719 old times. I used to live in a small town 0:05:39.200 --> 0:05:40.880 and when I was a kid, and we didn't lock 0:05:40.920 --> 0:05:44.120 our door, we would go away. Yeah, I mean, so, 0:05:44.400 --> 0:05:46.560 I guess since she asked them to lock the door 0:05:46.960 --> 0:05:50.040 and it later, why did she lock it? It might 0:05:50.080 --> 0:05:52.080 have been a key lock situation. I grew up in 0:05:52.080 --> 0:05:53.960 a house where the only way to lock the doors 0:05:54.200 --> 0:05:57.159 from inside or out was with a skeleton key. The 0:05:57.160 --> 0:06:00.560 house was sold, so you couldn't act the lock it 0:06:00.600 --> 0:06:03.440 from the inside without the key, so it might not 0:06:03.520 --> 0:06:05.320 have been just so easy to shut the door and 0:06:05.360 --> 0:06:10.480 just flip locks around one thirty in the morning, ballpark 0:06:10.560 --> 0:06:12.600 is And by the way, their bedroom, I believe it 0:06:12.680 --> 0:06:14.760 was on the ground floor of the house, right, the 0:06:14.800 --> 0:06:17.520 bedroom was the parents bedroom was on the ground floor. 0:06:18.720 --> 0:06:22.080 There was a entire story above them. We don't know, 0:06:22.160 --> 0:06:24.039 I don't know that we'll we'll get into some of 0:06:24.080 --> 0:06:27.240 the spatial weirdness of this house. Yeah, I'm just wondering 0:06:27.279 --> 0:06:30.080 because of the thing that we a little bit glassed 0:06:30.120 --> 0:06:33.080 over that she heard something fall on the roof, so 0:06:33.120 --> 0:06:36.120 if she were a few stories down. So yeah, let's 0:06:36.200 --> 0:06:38.880 let's let me describe the house briefly as best as 0:06:38.960 --> 0:06:41.640 I can tell. Okay, there's a lot of questions in 0:06:41.680 --> 0:06:43.920 this story, and one of them is how is this 0:06:44.000 --> 0:06:49.760 house laid out? Yeah, because because there's my photoswings. But 0:06:50.200 --> 0:06:53.360 mom and dad Mr and Mrs Solder their bedroom is 0:06:53.440 --> 0:06:55.800 on the ground floor, and apparently they also had a 0:06:55.800 --> 0:06:59.280 home office in the house that was on the ground floor. 0:07:00.040 --> 0:07:02.960 On floor, and then the children were upstairs. And what 0:07:03.040 --> 0:07:06.400 I don't know is if upstairs was a true second 0:07:06.560 --> 0:07:09.320 story or or a story and a half house, or 0:07:09.360 --> 0:07:10.800 story and a half where it was just the attic, 0:07:11.040 --> 0:07:13.080 and you know that's where the because all the kids 0:07:13.080 --> 0:07:17.640 slept upstairs in two rooms. So I don't know where 0:07:17.640 --> 0:07:21.560 the staircases in the house. I don't know where anything 0:07:21.600 --> 0:07:23.840 in the house is related, because we never get any 0:07:23.880 --> 0:07:27.200 description of the home. So I don't know exactly how 0:07:27.240 --> 0:07:29.080 she would have heard if it is a true two 0:07:29.120 --> 0:07:31.559 story house, I'm not quite sure how she heard something 0:07:31.680 --> 0:07:35.200 hit and I'm using air quotes here and rolled down 0:07:35.360 --> 0:07:39.000 the roof. I don't know answer. It could have been 0:07:39.160 --> 0:07:41.280 something big and loud enough that it would care you 0:07:41.280 --> 0:07:43.320 would hear it throughout the house. Could have been but 0:07:43.360 --> 0:07:45.120 you would think that people upstairs would have heard it. 0:07:45.400 --> 0:07:47.280 Do you think that also could have been a toy, 0:07:47.760 --> 0:07:49.560 It could have been a lot, It could have been 0:07:49.560 --> 0:07:52.680 something in the second story or in the attic space. Yeah, 0:07:52.960 --> 0:07:57.600 I don't chunk of ice. It is Christmas and it 0:07:57.760 --> 0:08:02.200 is freezing cold, and it was it was because we're 0:08:02.240 --> 0:08:04.880 in West Virginia, freaking gold there in the winter. Well, 0:08:04.920 --> 0:08:07.360 and sometimes squirrels will landing here with the big thump 0:08:07.400 --> 0:08:10.280 and just sort of scamper off. Not at midnight, though, 0:08:10.360 --> 0:08:13.680 squirrels don't do that. Squirrels hibernate. Joe, Yes, but we're 0:08:13.720 --> 0:08:18.600 way off anyway, Stop talking about squirrels. So about one 0:08:18.640 --> 0:08:22.119 thirty in the morning, she wakes up, missus Sauer wakes 0:08:22.200 --> 0:08:26.080 up again and realizes that their smoke and the house 0:08:26.200 --> 0:08:30.640 is on fire. And as you briefly mentioned earlier, I 0:08:30.680 --> 0:08:32.920 think it was Joe actually talked about there was a 0:08:32.960 --> 0:08:35.400 home office, and she figured out that there was a 0:08:35.440 --> 0:08:37.559 fire and it was all the smoke was coming from 0:08:37.559 --> 0:08:41.600 the home office. Husband and wife wake up, scream at 0:08:41.640 --> 0:08:46.160 the kids to get out, and they run outside. Totally 0:08:46.200 --> 0:08:48.840 makes sense, let's get out of a burning building in retrospect, 0:08:48.840 --> 0:08:51.079 and maybe they should have gone upstairs and grab the kids. Well, 0:08:51.080 --> 0:08:53.679 actually I don't agree with that because here's here's the 0:08:53.679 --> 0:08:57.560 thing is that the kids that were upstairs. I told 0:08:57.600 --> 0:09:00.439 you Marian was on the couch, she fall asleep downstairs, 0:09:00.440 --> 0:09:02.920 and then mom and dad were downstairs and the youngest, 0:09:02.960 --> 0:09:06.240 the three year old child, was also on the ground floor. 0:09:06.559 --> 0:09:09.640 The others were upstairs, and the ones that were upstairs 0:09:09.679 --> 0:09:14.520 there was John he's twenty three, George Jr. Sixteen. We 0:09:14.720 --> 0:09:17.920 have Marian who was downstairs. She was seventeen. I'll just 0:09:17.960 --> 0:09:20.679 give everybody's ages here because it kind of is important 0:09:20.679 --> 0:09:23.960 because you see the range of the kids. Uh. Sylvia 0:09:24.160 --> 0:09:25.800 was the little one, the three year old. She was 0:09:25.840 --> 0:09:28.560 the one that sleeping downstairs as well. So the people 0:09:28.600 --> 0:09:33.280 who got out were John, George Jr. Marian, Sylvia, and 0:09:33.280 --> 0:09:35.360 then Mr and Mrs Saulder. They got out of the house. 0:09:36.200 --> 0:09:39.320 The rest of the children, we've got Maurice he who 0:09:39.440 --> 0:09:44.240 was fourteen, Martha twelve, Lewis ten, Genie eight, and Betty 0:09:44.360 --> 0:09:48.840 six didn't get out of the house. John the oldest son, 0:09:49.000 --> 0:09:53.000 the twenty three year old. He said that he shook 0:09:53.080 --> 0:09:56.640 the other kids awake before he left. I think John 0:09:56.679 --> 0:09:58.560 and George were in a separate room, right, there are 0:09:58.600 --> 0:10:00.520 five kids in one room and then on a George 0:10:00.520 --> 0:10:04.040 in the other room. I think so. I'm not sure though, again, 0:10:04.320 --> 0:10:07.720 no descriptions are really good of who was where in 0:10:07.760 --> 0:10:10.360 that upper story I do. I have read that it 0:10:10.440 --> 0:10:13.600 was two rooms, but I'm not really positive who was 0:10:13.640 --> 0:10:16.000 in what. But it does sound like the younger children 0:10:16.040 --> 0:10:20.400 were in the room together. The five young ones, because 0:10:20.400 --> 0:10:23.160 it would make more sense if you'd be all boys, 0:10:23.360 --> 0:10:25.040 all the boys in one room and all the girls 0:10:25.080 --> 0:10:29.280 in the other. You know, maybe I don't you know, 0:10:29.440 --> 0:10:34.520 they may not have had that that luxury rooms. It's 0:10:34.520 --> 0:10:36.640 a lot of boys of creaming in one room. Though. Yeah, 0:10:36.679 --> 0:10:44.880 that's true. Boys. You're boys are terrible. Yeah, yeah, so terrible, 0:10:44.920 --> 0:10:49.600 pun Joe. Okay, So houses on fire, several kids get out, 0:10:49.640 --> 0:10:53.040 five of them are not out. Mr Sawder tries to 0:10:53.040 --> 0:10:55.160 get back into the house, but he can't because the 0:10:55.200 --> 0:10:58.160 fire is so intense. He runs through the rain barrel 0:10:58.240 --> 0:11:00.680 to get water to throw on the fire. But we 0:11:00.679 --> 0:11:03.600 already talked about it's Christmas Eve. It's once or an 0:11:03.600 --> 0:11:06.280 in the morning. The bucket is fro or the barrel 0:11:06.360 --> 0:11:12.160 is frozen solid. Can't do anything there. He runs to 0:11:12.200 --> 0:11:14.560 get his ladder from where he normally keeps it so 0:11:14.559 --> 0:11:16.599 he can get to the second the window where the 0:11:16.679 --> 0:11:19.880 kid's room is at. His ladder is missing, runs to 0:11:20.040 --> 0:11:22.600 his truck to start one of his trucks because he's 0:11:22.640 --> 0:11:25.680 got a freight business. He hall's freight and he halds coal. 0:11:26.160 --> 0:11:29.640 Trucks won't start, which is mysterious because his plan was 0:11:29.679 --> 0:11:31.880 to back up to the house and then get on 0:11:31.920 --> 0:11:36.760 the top of the truck. Sabotage. Sabotage obviously, but yeah, 0:11:36.760 --> 0:11:41.840 they wouldn't start Marian to try and get the fire department. 0:11:42.000 --> 0:11:46.319 She runs to a neighbor's house. And this ferries from 0:11:46.320 --> 0:11:50.360 the version you read. But she either couldn't get ahold 0:11:50.400 --> 0:11:52.720 of the operator, because this is back in the day 0:11:52.720 --> 0:11:55.079 when you didn't dial a number, you called the operator, 0:11:55.120 --> 0:11:59.000 who then connected you either couldn't get ahold of the operator, 0:11:59.360 --> 0:12:02.240 or did get ahold of the operator and was connected 0:12:02.400 --> 0:12:05.800 to the chief of the volunteer fire department. The other 0:12:05.880 --> 0:12:08.280 version is she couldn't get through. Somebody else saw the 0:12:08.360 --> 0:12:11.680 fire tried to call the operator, also couldn't get through, 0:12:12.040 --> 0:12:16.040 and then that person drove to either the operator's house 0:12:16.320 --> 0:12:21.120 or the chief's house, not sure which. And that's all 0:12:21.160 --> 0:12:24.440 they had was a volunteer volunteer fire departments all they had. Yeah, 0:12:24.679 --> 0:12:26.760 they would seem like they probably drove to the chief's house. 0:12:26.840 --> 0:12:30.680 Why bothered with the operator, I don't know. Yeah, it's weird. 0:12:30.720 --> 0:12:33.600 I don't know. Here's something that everybody wigs out about 0:12:33.760 --> 0:12:36.120 is when the fire department showed up eight o'clock in 0:12:36.120 --> 0:12:39.360 the morning. It does seem like a long time. Yeah, 0:12:39.520 --> 0:12:43.200 it does unless you understand how the fire department worked, 0:12:43.640 --> 0:12:46.040 its volunteer fire department, so they would just stand out 0:12:46.040 --> 0:12:49.080 a group tax i assume. Of course, they used what 0:12:49.160 --> 0:12:52.320 was called the phone tree system. So person one calls 0:12:52.480 --> 0:12:54.600 person to and says, hey, there's a fire, get to 0:12:54.640 --> 0:12:57.840 the station. Okay, I will. Person one hangs up, goes 0:12:57.840 --> 0:13:00.920 to the station. Person to calls person three, Hey there's 0:13:00.920 --> 0:13:04.200 a fire, Get to the station, and the process repeats, 0:13:04.200 --> 0:13:06.559 and you it's the tree to get ahold of everybody. 0:13:06.600 --> 0:13:08.960 In my experience that it had always been more like 0:13:09.000 --> 0:13:11.480 we used phone trees when I was in elementary, Should 0:13:12.559 --> 0:13:16.559 you call two people? That's probably more like what he 0:13:16.640 --> 0:13:19.440 probably was. I'm just keeping it as simple as possible here, 0:13:19.480 --> 0:13:21.880 because it took me a while to remember what a 0:13:21.880 --> 0:13:24.680 phone tree was, because it's such an old concept. You 0:13:24.720 --> 0:13:28.079 can't just send out a mass email no, no, do 0:13:28.120 --> 0:13:29.720 you know what they don't miss is the mass text 0:13:29.720 --> 0:13:35.120 messages anyway, So people wig out about this, But that's 0:13:35.160 --> 0:13:38.319 the system they had. They didn't have a a siren 0:13:38.400 --> 0:13:41.000 at the firehouse, so they couldn't just ring that and 0:13:41.000 --> 0:13:44.440 get everybody's attention. One of the things that you will 0:13:44.480 --> 0:13:46.559 see when you come across this story, and this is 0:13:46.600 --> 0:13:49.080 about the fire, is that it lasted for about forty 0:13:49.120 --> 0:13:54.160 five minutes, which is wrong. Really, it's absolutely wrong. You know, 0:13:54.200 --> 0:13:56.240 a lot of house fires do when I last that long, 0:13:56.280 --> 0:13:58.240 but that's when the fire department shows up and puts 0:13:58.240 --> 0:14:02.160 it out. The house burned for days. Forty five minutes 0:14:02.200 --> 0:14:04.760 to an hour is the length of time the house 0:14:04.840 --> 0:14:09.439 was on fire before the roof collapsed. The roof collapsed, 0:14:09.679 --> 0:14:13.640 the house continued to burn. It was so hot that 0:14:13.760 --> 0:14:16.400 when the fire department showed up they still had to 0:14:16.520 --> 0:14:20.720 hose it down to get in. So this is six 0:14:20.760 --> 0:14:23.800 and a half hours of fire. So this is all 0:14:23.840 --> 0:14:26.360 those things that you read that is incorrect. Yeah, by 0:14:26.400 --> 0:14:28.440 the time they got there, it was probably just mostly 0:14:28.440 --> 0:14:31.240 smoldering ashes and sitting in the basement. Well, I see, 0:14:31.240 --> 0:14:33.720 that's the thing is I I don't know that because 0:14:33.840 --> 0:14:35.920 if it is a two story house, and that's that's 0:14:35.920 --> 0:14:37.640 a good thing to bring up as the basement. But 0:14:37.680 --> 0:14:40.400 if it's a two story house, that's a lot of 0:14:40.440 --> 0:14:44.880 material and that's all your possessions. Joe talks about the basement, 0:14:44.920 --> 0:14:48.000 which is important here because the house had a basement. 0:14:48.240 --> 0:14:51.480 We don't know how big. I'm guessing it's about a 0:14:51.560 --> 0:14:55.680 five feet to eight feet deep basements and normal size basement, 0:14:56.320 --> 0:14:58.160 but we don't know that. But there's a reason I 0:14:58.200 --> 0:15:01.440 say that, and you know, come up shortly. Wouldn't be 0:15:01.440 --> 0:15:03.880 like a normal size No, but this is you know, 0:15:03.920 --> 0:15:06.680 this is the forties and you just dug a basement. 0:15:06.680 --> 0:15:09.320 There wasn't a standard for how deep. Yeah, it would 0:15:09.320 --> 0:15:12.400 be to be like a cross base, a large space. Yes, 0:15:12.600 --> 0:15:15.760 you couldn't stand up I mean deep. If you have 0:15:15.800 --> 0:15:19.680 a five ft deep basement, that could be below grade 0:15:19.720 --> 0:15:21.200 and then you got like a foot and let me 0:15:21.280 --> 0:15:24.320 a couple of feet above. That's about standards. Yeah, that 0:15:24.440 --> 0:15:28.360 that could absolutely be it. Well, the obviously everything that 0:15:28.440 --> 0:15:32.360 was on fire fell into the basement and everything was 0:15:32.400 --> 0:15:35.400 contained and it would have kept burning. So that's where 0:15:35.440 --> 0:15:37.400 all that fire is and that's what they where they 0:15:37.400 --> 0:15:41.440 would have had to put everything out. Something I came 0:15:41.480 --> 0:15:43.160 across and I hadn't really thought about, and you never 0:15:43.240 --> 0:15:47.000 really see list in this story, is that homes in 0:15:47.040 --> 0:15:50.400 that area at that time we're heated with coal. Yeah, 0:15:50.880 --> 0:15:53.480 which means that there's a coal shoot, which means there's 0:15:53.680 --> 0:15:56.800 piles of coal sitting in the basement to heat the 0:15:56.840 --> 0:16:00.520 home with which when house catch on fire, it's going 0:16:00.560 --> 0:16:03.000 to also catch all that coal on fire. And didn't 0:16:03.040 --> 0:16:07.760 Mr run a cold business. He hauled coal. So that's 0:16:07.760 --> 0:16:10.440 another that's another bit to say, well they probably he 0:16:10.520 --> 0:16:15.440 did with living in coal country Western exactly my house. 0:16:15.520 --> 0:16:17.760 My house is ninety years old. Originally it had a 0:16:17.760 --> 0:16:20.000 coal burning furnace in it, and we're not even living 0:16:20.000 --> 0:16:24.760 in coal country. Yeah, so yeah, I'm so here's something 0:16:24.960 --> 0:16:26.800 there that I that I want to bring up about 0:16:26.840 --> 0:16:29.920 that is if people don't realize is that coal can 0:16:29.960 --> 0:16:35.400 burn extremely hot in two thousand degrees fahrenheit, depending on 0:16:35.680 --> 0:16:40.080 the conditions, type of coal, how much airflow. There's a 0:16:40.080 --> 0:16:43.480 lot of things that it can influence that temperature. But 0:16:43.920 --> 0:16:48.240 it's gonna burn easily a thousand degrees. That's pretty damn hot. 0:16:48.680 --> 0:16:51.200 Keep that in mind. Now we get back to the 0:16:51.200 --> 0:16:54.800 fire department. They arrive, they hosed the place down, they 0:16:54.840 --> 0:17:01.120 start combing through the scene. It's a bunch of volunteer firefighters. 0:17:01.640 --> 0:17:04.520 They don't know how to look for bodies. And let's 0:17:04.520 --> 0:17:08.280 be honest, at this point, everybody's expecting to find skeletal remains. 0:17:08.440 --> 0:17:10.480 Because it's been hours and hours and hours of the 0:17:10.520 --> 0:17:13.840 houses on fire, they expect to probably find full intact bodies, 0:17:14.160 --> 0:17:17.560 but full attack skeletons. Yes, they don't know what they're doing, 0:17:17.920 --> 0:17:22.840 and they're combing through. In their search, which according to 0:17:23.240 --> 0:17:27.560 the lore, was only about two hours long, they a 0:17:27.880 --> 0:17:30.200 identified the source of the fire, which was a faulty 0:17:30.240 --> 0:17:36.280 fuse box, and be they found no remains. They then 0:17:36.359 --> 0:17:40.080 after two hours, because it was Christmas morning, told Mr Sowder, Listen, 0:17:40.840 --> 0:17:43.600 we're gonna go home and we're gonna come back and 0:17:43.640 --> 0:17:47.880 we will finish the search. Just give us some time. Yeah, 0:17:48.000 --> 0:17:50.159 because the fact of the matter is is like, you know, 0:17:50.320 --> 0:17:53.080 what's the point of spoiling your Christmas? When there's five 0:17:53.119 --> 0:17:56.600 dead bodies in there? They're not going to go anywhere, sadly, brutally. 0:17:56.720 --> 0:18:00.800 That's the truth that really is. That's that's a harsh 0:18:00.800 --> 0:18:04.119 way to put it, but it's it's absolutely right. But 0:18:04.240 --> 0:18:07.480 here's a problem that's also not correct in terms of 0:18:07.520 --> 0:18:11.240 the report that they found nothing. Oh, there's reports that 0:18:11.280 --> 0:18:14.880 they did find things. The volunteer firefighters UM, along with 0:18:15.119 --> 0:18:18.880 a priest who was there and Mrs Sauder's brother, one 0:18:18.880 --> 0:18:22.399 of her brothers all said that they saw remains in 0:18:22.440 --> 0:18:28.760 the basement. Soe bone and we're talking, we're talking like 0:18:29.520 --> 0:18:32.359 in the basement, as in the house has collapsed into 0:18:32.440 --> 0:18:37.480 the basement. Not correct, Okay, it's clarify. Everything burns, everything's 0:18:37.480 --> 0:18:39.359 burned and fallen in and it's a hole in the 0:18:39.400 --> 0:18:42.000 ground that's holding all of that burned stuff. Okay, cool. 0:18:42.080 --> 0:18:44.240 I just wanted to clarify because when I first was 0:18:44.280 --> 0:18:46.880 reading through this and they're seeing the term in the basement, 0:18:46.920 --> 0:18:49.920 I was like, what, that doesn't make sense. That would 0:18:49.920 --> 0:18:55.080 they be in the basement. Okay, yep. So the thing 0:18:55.240 --> 0:18:58.960 is though they didn't tell Mr. And Mrs Suder what 0:18:59.000 --> 0:19:01.679 they had seen. Okay, they still have to finish with 0:19:01.720 --> 0:19:05.800 their their their search, but they don't say anything because again, 0:19:05.960 --> 0:19:10.080 it's Christmas morning and you've just lost five children. You 0:19:10.119 --> 0:19:11.879 don't say, hey, you saw a couple of bones and 0:19:11.880 --> 0:19:15.240 they're just so you know, but hey, like, well, yeah, 0:19:15.280 --> 0:19:19.960 they're totally totally barbecued. Man. So yeah, the terrible thing 0:19:20.000 --> 0:19:21.560 to say, and that's not what they were going to do, 0:19:21.840 --> 0:19:24.160 and which I get. Yeah, you want to say Merry 0:19:24.240 --> 0:19:26.560 Christmas more, you want to like, you know, suck them up. 0:19:27.520 --> 0:19:29.320 Which I don't know how you would in the situation. 0:19:31.000 --> 0:19:34.880 They saw remains like of what I don't ask, don't 0:19:35.359 --> 0:19:38.360 I mean, was it We don't know, but it's got 0:19:38.359 --> 0:19:41.359 to be skeletal remains. After that much time, there would 0:19:41.359 --> 0:19:43.960 be very little flesh left. I saw some claims that 0:19:44.000 --> 0:19:46.760 they found some internal organs, which that's later on, Yeah, 0:19:46.800 --> 0:19:49.680 which I find hard to believe because I mean, because 0:19:49.720 --> 0:19:51.919 after all that time and it was really high temperatures, 0:19:51.920 --> 0:19:53.879 you would think all that stuff would be just charred, 0:19:54.240 --> 0:19:58.240 just charred ashes, one of the last bits of the 0:19:58.320 --> 0:20:01.640 human body aside from bones, flesh, just to flesh that's 0:20:01.720 --> 0:20:03.800 left over in the fire, believe it or not, as 0:20:03.840 --> 0:20:08.080 you're intestines because they're so dense and full of moisture 0:20:08.119 --> 0:20:12.280 and waste, so they don't burn as fast as everything else. 0:20:13.000 --> 0:20:14.240 But those would be one of the few things that 0:20:14.240 --> 0:20:19.119 would be left before then it's just bone and charred bone. 0:20:19.440 --> 0:20:26.560 Charred bone blends in with the rest of the charred stuff. Yes, okay, 0:20:26.600 --> 0:20:30.160 that is absolutely true. Mr Sadder, being a grieving father, 0:20:30.600 --> 0:20:34.879 several days later, decides against the advice of everybody because, 0:20:35.080 --> 0:20:37.440 by the way, the volunteer fire Department hadn't had a 0:20:37.520 --> 0:20:40.360 chance to come back. Yet it's the holidays. They got 0:20:40.400 --> 0:20:42.720 things to do. I guess they don't come back. Yet. 0:20:43.600 --> 0:20:46.040 He decides that he's going to make the what remains 0:20:46.040 --> 0:20:48.439 of the house and memorial to his children, and he 0:20:48.600 --> 0:20:52.199 fills in the basement with dirt, five vertical feet of 0:20:52.280 --> 0:20:57.880 dirt the bulldozer and packs it in there, and then 0:20:57.880 --> 0:21:00.960 they plant flowers on top. Now, I yet, planting flowers 0:21:01.000 --> 0:21:02.960 on top that is totally a memorial thing. To get 0:21:03.440 --> 0:21:07.480 the bulldozing bit is weird to me. But one of 0:21:07.480 --> 0:21:10.080 the things that I never find when you read about 0:21:10.080 --> 0:21:12.640 the fact that he filled in the sight, you never 0:21:12.840 --> 0:21:17.320 hear if they cleaned out the basement first. We don't 0:21:17.320 --> 0:21:21.080 know did did somebody come along and pull out all 0:21:21.119 --> 0:21:23.680 the stuff? Did he just say to hell with it 0:21:23.840 --> 0:21:26.720 and bury it all? I think, yeah, I kind of 0:21:26.720 --> 0:21:29.640 get the feeling that they left all the stuff in there, 0:21:29.640 --> 0:21:31.600 and he pushed the dirt in on top because it's 0:21:31.720 --> 0:21:33.320 his he was sure at that point that his kids 0:21:33.320 --> 0:21:36.640 remains were still in there, and I'm going to fill 0:21:36.680 --> 0:21:39.880 it in. I absolutely feel the same way. But we 0:21:40.320 --> 0:21:43.240 don't how anything says one way or the other. And 0:21:43.480 --> 0:21:47.280 however horrible this is are. Is there a theory that 0:21:47.320 --> 0:21:51.080 he was trying to cover something up. No, actually, that's 0:21:51.119 --> 0:21:53.800 never in any of the theories. It's never that mom 0:21:53.800 --> 0:21:58.119 and dad are directly responsible. Okay, I don't never. I 0:21:58.119 --> 0:22:00.560 don't think that if he had actually, say, murdered his 0:22:00.640 --> 0:22:02.760 kids and was trying to cover it up, I don't 0:22:02.760 --> 0:22:04.639 think it would have called so much attention to the case, 0:22:05.320 --> 0:22:08.960 because they really they kept this case alive for sure. 0:22:09.080 --> 0:22:11.399