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Speaker 1: Coolson Media.

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Speaker 2: Hello, and welcome to Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff,

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Speaker 2: a podcast about libraries. Oh well just today.

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Speaker 1: Hi.

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Speaker 2: I'm your host Margaret Kiljoy. And my guest today, who

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Speaker 2: I didn't know what the topic was but has probably

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Speaker 2: figured it out by now, is Samantha McVeigh, host of

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Speaker 2: Stuff Mom never told you.

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Speaker 1: I'm so excited to talk about libraries.

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Speaker 2: Yay, Hi, how do you know it was about library anyway?

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Speaker 1: I can now read your mind. I know that's how

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Speaker 1: connected we are.

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Speaker 2: It's true. Samantha is one of the first guests we've

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Speaker 2: ever had on this show, and we'll continue to be

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Speaker 2: a regular guest on it. Yay, I dearly intend. Also

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Speaker 2: with us is Sophie. Hi.

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Speaker 1: Sophie, Hi, who I got to see face to face

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Speaker 1: for like, yeah, half a day recently. Was such a

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Speaker 1: good time. It was fun.

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Speaker 2: I get to do that soon. It's been a mine. Jealous,

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Speaker 2: I mean, what are you talking about? We all record

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Speaker 2: this in the same room together time. Absolutely no one

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Speaker 2: does anything over the internet that would be wrong somehow.

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Speaker 2: But something people can do over the internet is tweet

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Speaker 2: at Sophie on Twitter about how Sophie should let us

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Speaker 2: run Cool Zone twenty fifty four report from the Dinoh War.

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Speaker 2: What Yeah, tweeted me because I haven't already said yes,

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Speaker 2: which I totally have, but still tweeted me. It's more

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Speaker 2: fun this way, Sophie said, I can do a really

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Speaker 2: strange thing on book Club that I'm planning on doing,

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Speaker 2: and I'm pretending that Sophie, by being the producer, gets

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Speaker 2: to be the person who's like positioned antagonistically, even though

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Speaker 2: she's not. And so that's why I'm it's always funnier

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Speaker 2: when you explain the bit to the audience. That's what

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Speaker 2: I've learned.

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Speaker 1: I think you explained that to me because I was

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Speaker 1: very behind already. I was like, what, okay, yes, Dinah Wars. Obviously, Magpie,

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Speaker 1: have I ever said no to you?

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Speaker 2: My very first idea for a show, I pitched two

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Speaker 2: ideas and you picked this one and it was the

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Speaker 2: better idea. And I'm not going to tell the audience

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Speaker 2: what the other idea was, but I'll tell Samantha later.

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Speaker 1: Oh no, I'm intrigued.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it wasn't as good.

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Speaker 1: I don't remember what it was.

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Speaker 2: Well, this week we're going to talk oh wait, first,

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Speaker 2: we're going to talk about the fact that our audio

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Speaker 2: engineer is named Rory Hi Rory Hi Rray and our

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Speaker 2: theme music was written for us by Unwoman. This week,

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Speaker 2: we're going to talk about one of the most formative

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Speaker 2: institutions in my life, one of the most dare I

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Speaker 2: say it, socialistic things that we have in this country.

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Speaker 2: This week we're going to talk about public libraries. You

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Speaker 2: ever spent much time at public libraries?

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Speaker 1: So I just let like, recently, I think like six

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Speaker 1: months ago, eight months ago, I got my library card

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Speaker 1: near my house. So I moved into my house two

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Speaker 1: years ago, and it's been a long time since I've

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Speaker 1: gotten a library card, and I was like, you know,

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Speaker 1: now that I've actually bought a home, I'm gonna do

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Speaker 1: the And the librarians were so nice. They were like

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Speaker 1: the most encouraging people I've ever met, and very excited

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Speaker 1: for me to get a library card. It was one

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Speaker 1: of the best experiences.

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Speaker 2: I wonder if there's like a more because the reputation

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Speaker 2: of the librarian is like the mean lady with her

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Speaker 2: hair pulled back into a bond who yells at you.

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Speaker 2: But like, yeah, I wonder if there's ever been a

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Speaker 2: sharper divide between the stereotype of a type of person,

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Speaker 2: and then that actual person. Librarians are like so nice,

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Speaker 2: they might still sometimes shush you. I don't know, but right.

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Speaker 1: There's also that, you know, the sexy stereotype as well,

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Speaker 1: So that's true several things that come link to the

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Speaker 1: sexy librarian being also the quiet librarian versus also the

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Speaker 1: mean librarian, the strict rather. You know, that could work

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Speaker 1: in a lot of ways.

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Speaker 2: I think that all librarians are equally sexy.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely.

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Speaker 2: I love libraries. I also I haven't been going as

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Speaker 2: much as an adult. As a kid, they were I

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Speaker 2: come from a strange family. We would like go on vacation,

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Speaker 2: so we'd stop at the library first to make sure

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Speaker 2: we all had enough books to read for the weekend.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, so I would be the one that I

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Speaker 1: would walk from my middle school to the local library,

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Speaker 1: which no longer exists, which made me very sad. We

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Speaker 1: would go to a local drug store and get snacks

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Speaker 1: and they would go hang out at the library all

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Speaker 1: day until my mom or dad were done with work

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Speaker 1: and then we would walk down that way. But I

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Speaker 1: used to hang out every day at the local library.

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Speaker 1: The libraries were really nice to us.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: See, I've never encountered a mean library, even my school librarians.

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Speaker 1: I remember Miss Dorothy like we would give her presents

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Speaker 1: during the summertime. Was I think like her birthday was

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Speaker 1: on the summertime or something. We would go and give

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Speaker 1: her presents because we loved her so much.

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Speaker 2: That's a good grift. Be a teacher that always pays

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Speaker 2: really well, be a teacher librarian.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, she was just in the working in the library

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Speaker 1: and just did her thing and make sure we got

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Speaker 1: all the study materials. When once upon a time, kids,

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Speaker 1: when we had reports, we would have to go to

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Speaker 1: the libraries to find resources.

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Speaker 2: See Whereas in the sometime in the nineties, I learned

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Speaker 2: that you could cite websites as before Wikipedia. But I

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Speaker 2: knew how to make websites, so I would cheat. I

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Speaker 2: mean I would never cheat. I imagined writing websites and

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Speaker 2: then citing them. Imagine I would totally never have done that.

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Speaker 1: I pretended in my mind and never in real life. Yeah, never,

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Speaker 1: which may yet get me arrested.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. So this year, I've been doing a bunch of

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Speaker 2: promotion for my book The Sapling Cage. This is more

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Speaker 2: promotion than I've ever done for any other book that

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Speaker 2: I've done in. One of the places my publisher sent

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Speaker 2: me was the Public Library Association's conference in Columbus, Ohio.

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Speaker 2: I wasn't at that for too long, just long enough

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Speaker 2: to meet some people and sit around and sign books

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Speaker 2: and talk to librarians. And I met a bunch of

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Speaker 2: really cool librarians who work at public schools and public

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Speaker 2: libraries and prison libraries. And one of these cool librarians

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Speaker 2: came up to me and handed me a list that

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Speaker 2: they'd written of cool librarians to check out. And so

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Speaker 2: I thought this week I'd cover the whole list, and

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Speaker 2: instead I'm only covering one of them, because Okay, it

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Speaker 2: turns out there's a lot to libraries. And I got

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Speaker 2: really excited about it.

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Speaker 1: You put me on a rollercoaster there. I was like,

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Speaker 1: we're gonna do all of them. How long is this episode?

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Speaker 2: Eventually, eventually.

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Speaker 1: I was excited. I was ready to hook her down

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Speaker 1: with you. Let's go.

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Speaker 2: I'm going to save some of these librarians for later.

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Speaker 1: Fine.

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Speaker 2: I had never really considered the origin of libraries. They'd

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Speaker 2: always just sort of been there somehow. I don't know

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Speaker 2: if you all have this experience. I just sort of

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Speaker 2: take them for granted, right, libraries are there. They're always there.

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Speaker 2: That'd be like wondering why sidewalks exist. You know, they're

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Speaker 2: just there, which is funny because now sidewalks are going away,

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Speaker 2: but that's because of car culture. But no, of course not.

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Speaker 2: This country was founded on press property, arguably more so

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Speaker 2: than any other country in the history of the world.

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Speaker 2: So public lending libraries were not part of the original plan.

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Speaker 2: And also, of course, most quick histories you'll find about

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Speaker 2: libraries will pick a couple recognizable, rich white men and

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Speaker 2: lay the credit for public libraries at their feet. And

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Speaker 2: some of the credit, I admit, is going to go

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Speaker 2: to some abysmal people. And no, Benjamin Franklin did not

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Speaker 2: invent the public library. Oh yeah, he's going to come

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Speaker 2: up in the story, but he did not invent them.

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Speaker 2: The concept of a public lending library as old as shit,

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Speaker 2: probably as old as writing it, which is to say,

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Speaker 2: as old as what gets called history. Rome had some

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Speaker 2: public libraries. Islam was setting up public libraries around one

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Speaker 2: thousand a d. More modern Europe like Italy figured them

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Speaker 2: out in like the fourteen hundreds. A lot of people

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Speaker 2: have done public libraries or very types of libraries, and

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Speaker 2: the US didn't start out much in the way of libraries,

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Speaker 2: including during ye oldie colonizing. Well, it's still a colony

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Speaker 2: colonizing country, but you know when they admitted they were

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Speaker 2: colonizing force. The first public library in the Americas was

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Speaker 2: in Mexico. It's actually still there. It's the Biblioteca Palafoxiana

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Speaker 2: and it was started in sixteen forty six by a

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Speaker 2: bishop who donated five thousand books on the condition that

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Speaker 2: they be available to quote any literate person and not

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Speaker 2: just academics. Oh nice, just pretty cool. Yeah, although a

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Speaker 2: lot of these early libraries are just going to be

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Speaker 2: religious libraries. I actually don't know what this bishop donated.

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Speaker 2: I'm like, how can there be five thousand religious books?

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Speaker 2: But there probably can be. There's probably a lot more

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Speaker 2: than that.

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Speaker 1: Right there probably is. They can like along the lines

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Speaker 1: of Mormons in the Bible in the hotels type of things, Like,

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Speaker 1: is that what we're getting into?

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Speaker 2: Oh no, it's not five thousand copies of the same thing, No,

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Speaker 2: that would okay, Yeah, now I think it's different volumes.

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Speaker 2: I hope that would be awful. The library of just

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Speaker 2: this book.

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Speaker 1: The trickery of it all. I'm like, yeah that's not right.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, totally. It's all different covers, but then you open

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Speaker 2: it up and it's still just the same book. It's

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Speaker 2: just Catch twenty two over and over again.

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Speaker 1: No oh no.

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Speaker 2: Some other libraries cropped up through the British colonies as well.

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Speaker 2: Probably the first is Harvard Library, which started about eight

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Speaker 2: years before the Mexican Library, but it wasn't public, so

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Speaker 2: it doesn't count. There's like, I found so many listicals

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Speaker 2: and academic articles all like being like, this is the

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Speaker 2: first such and such library, right, and they're all like

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Speaker 2: with lots of caveats and or lying or contradicting each other.

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Speaker 2: So whenever I say first on this show, take it

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Speaker 2: with a grain assault, but like extra, take it with

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Speaker 2: a grain of assault today. Okay, but Harvard got it

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Speaker 2: start with a library. The Harvard Library started when four

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Speaker 2: hundred books were donated by John Harvard to a new

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Speaker 2: school that was like, yeah, sure, we use your name.

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Speaker 2: And as at this point I must point out, dear listener,

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Speaker 2: if you are a university and you want to change

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Speaker 2: your name to the Kiljoy Library, I'll give you four

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Speaker 2: hundred books. That is a cheap price to pay for immortality.

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Speaker 1: I was gonna say, so he didn't do anything other

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Speaker 1: than don't get me wrong, at that point in time,

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Speaker 1: I'm sure books are very very expensive and very latest. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so we know that, but that's what he did. He

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Speaker 1: didn't actually like build anything.

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Speaker 2: I actually am not sure beyond that. The article that

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Speaker 2: I read was like, gave foreigner books and then in

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Speaker 2: exchange they took his name. But then I suspect he

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Speaker 2: had a lot more to do with Harvard than that,

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Speaker 2: because there was another guy who also donated books at

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Speaker 2: the beginning. But I didn't write his name down because

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Speaker 2: it was a name I'd never heard before, so I

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Speaker 2: didn't bother writing it in the script.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, so huh huh, Okay.

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Speaker 2: There are other first libraries. The Darby Free Library of Darby,

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Speaker 2: Pennsylvania claims to be the oldest public library, started in

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Speaker 2: seventeen forty three. Thomas Bray was an English abolitionist, and

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Speaker 2: he started the first lending libraries in the colony in

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Speaker 2: like sixteen ninety nine, and these were religious libraries. Harvard

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Speaker 2: Library also started off as a religious library, and actually

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Speaker 2: they pretty quickly moved to a more secular library. So

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Speaker 2: those four hundred books didn't even like last all that long,

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Speaker 2: I could write four hundred books of make belief. Well, actually,

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Speaker 2: you know, it's a lot of work to write make

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Speaker 2: belief books. I just did it, and it took a

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Speaker 2: long time.

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Speaker 1: Never mind, how about you take old make believe books

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Speaker 1: and then redo them repeatedly, which is kind of what

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Speaker 1: happens if you think about that, and in new versions.

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Speaker 2: You know, Okay, okay, find something older than Catch twenty

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Speaker 2: two that's in public doma.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and then just taken rearrange it with like your traditions.

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Speaker 2: Mmm. No, that's a good idea. I'm going to call

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Speaker 2: it catch twenty one because it comes before Catch twenty two.

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Speaker 2: It'll be the same thing but said in World War One.

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Speaker 1: Catch two point zero. In that it just even way

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Speaker 1: beyond itself. How about that. Uh, we've got a good plan, Margaret.

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Speaker 1: I think you got this.

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Speaker 2: I believe in us. The usual origin story of the

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Speaker 2: modern library system starts with the first non religious lending

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Speaker 2: library idea that's spread across the country. And of course

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Speaker 2: this is America we're talking about. So it started with

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Speaker 2: a company, the Library Company of Philadelphia. Oh, there was

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Speaker 2: this discussion group of twelve white men called the Junto

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Speaker 2: from the Spanish Junta or Assembly. It's centered around a

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Speaker 2: charismatic slaver named Benjamin Franklin. Oh there, yeah, he was

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Speaker 2: gonna come up. He's actually like one of the least

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Speaker 2: bad of the I'll talk about is but whatever. At

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Speaker 2: the time, he is absolutely like buying people. Ye, this

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Speaker 2: Junto got together to sit around and feel smart and

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Speaker 2: talk about stuff. And one of the things that came

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Speaker 2: up when I was reading about libraries is that an

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Speaker 2: awful lot of like eighteenth to twentieth century history, especially

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Speaker 2: Enlightenment history, is people focused on like self and community improvement, right,

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Speaker 2: And so they're like, how do we make our culture

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Speaker 2: and ourselves and our race and our nation, how do

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Speaker 2: we make them better? You know? And I mean some

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Speaker 2: of those are like good ideas come out of that, right,

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Speaker 2: and also really bad ideas come out of this too.

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Speaker 2: They're specific downsides. This is what later will give us eugenics.

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Speaker 2: I'm not claiming that the Junto was doing anything proto eugenics, right,

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Speaker 2: It's just that there's a lot of like, don't drink alcohol,

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Speaker 2: that's bad, read books instead. Energy in the promotion of

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Speaker 2: libraries that is comparable to the energy that led to

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Speaker 2: the improvement of the race. Stuff that fueled race science.

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Speaker 2: But you know what doesn't fuel race science? Approximately forty

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Speaker 2: to one hundred percent of our sponsors.

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Speaker 1: I was gonna say, are you sure.

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Speaker 2: I feel certain that no more than sixty percent of

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Speaker 2: our sponsors are currently engaged in promoting race science.

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Speaker 1: But we love our sponsors.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we love all of them, at least zero to

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Speaker 2: sixty percent of them. And here they are and we're back.

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Speaker 2: I will say it's very likely that our sponsors were

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Speaker 2: not of the here's how to improve your self variety.

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Speaker 2: They were much more likely promoting vice like gambling, right,

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Speaker 2: which I'm honestly more on the improve yourself side of things,

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Speaker 2: but it should never be forced on people. That's how

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Speaker 2: I feel that's true. Anyway, I'm kind of talking shit

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Speaker 2: on the junto right because it's like run by a

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Speaker 2: slaver and they're all white and whatever. They're actually better

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Speaker 2: than you'd kind of expect them to be. This is

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Speaker 2: a debate club, Franklin wrote in his biography. Our debates

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Speaker 2: were to be under the direction of a president and

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Speaker 2: to be conducted in the sincere spirit of inquiry after truth,

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Speaker 2: without fondness for dispute. Or desire for victory, and so

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Speaker 2: it's like it's the opposite of the way that we

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Speaker 2: do debate now, right, It's not a life competitive debate.

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Speaker 2: It's actually just trying to explore ideas. And so Benjamin

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Speaker 2: Franklin took a really long time to get around to

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Speaker 2: becoming an abolitionist, but he he did, and he ended

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Speaker 2: his life a very fierce abolitionist or a very prominent

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Speaker 2: abolitionist at least. And so I think he meant it

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Speaker 2: when he came at things being like, Hey, if you

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Speaker 2: can prove me wrong, I'll change my mind. And he

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Speaker 2: among some of the other Founding Fathers, I like, historically

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Speaker 2: I just basically talked shit on the American Revolution constantly

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Speaker 2: on this show because I think it's a lateral move

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Speaker 2: and did not actually decolonize North America but Instaid cemented

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Speaker 2: whatever anyway. But I think that some of the Founding

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Speaker 2: Fathers were on some level influenced by like the things

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Speaker 2: they claimed to believe, you know, and wound up getting

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Speaker 2: actually into the spirit of freedom eventually. It just took

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Speaker 2: it took Benjamin Franklin until his seventies to become one

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Speaker 2: of the most prominent abolitionists in America. So whoever is

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Speaker 2: listening to this, you got a racist uncle. He's younger

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Speaker 2: in seventy five or something. He's he's still got a

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Speaker 2: chance to do a Ben Franklin.

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Speaker 1: Better late than never.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess I haven't. Like one day I'll like

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Speaker 2: really deep dive some of the founding fathers. I just

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Speaker 2: like Thomas Pain is the only one I have any

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Speaker 2: hope for.

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Speaker 1: You know, the entirety of the discourse in this conversation,

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Speaker 1: it just makes me wary and like motives. Sure, sure,

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Speaker 1: sure they may have said, okay, I'll believe you to

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Speaker 1: this point. And also why also who was able to

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Speaker 1: convince them because it couldn't have been Oh it wasn't

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Speaker 1: black people, a woman, it definitely wasn't going to be

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Speaker 1: a person of color and all these things like what

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Speaker 1: they wanted. And it was also after they established power,

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Speaker 1: so they had the power. Then that's as long as

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Speaker 1: it gave them or kept them power, they were fine.

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Speaker 1: And then they're like, yeah, I had enough power that

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Speaker 1: I can change my mind if I want to do,

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Speaker 1: like all of those would everything just sus And I'm like, mmm.

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Speaker 2: This is the best analysis. This isn't amazing analysis. Because

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Speaker 2: it's also going to apply later to the second rich

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Speaker 2: white guy who's going to be involved in this. So

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Speaker 2: that's awesome. That is a really good way of looking

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Speaker 2: at it. Franklin and slavery, he personally bought at least

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Speaker 2: seven people, and he sold ads for enslaved people in

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Speaker 2: his newspaper, but he was equal opportunity. He also took

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Speaker 2: money from the Quakers who were running anti slavery ads

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Speaker 2: at the same time. Later in life, he went to

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Speaker 2: England and he was influenced by the abolitionists there, and

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Speaker 2: he started off by writing anonymous like screeds against slavery,

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Speaker 2: and then he slowly started growing a backbone and writing

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Speaker 2: stuff under his own name. And I think that your

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Speaker 2: analysis of like how cemented his power is is totally

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Speaker 2: a big part of this, Like whether he felt like

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Speaker 2: he was going to like lose his house if he

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Speaker 2: did it or whatever. You know, by the time he

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Speaker 2: was eighty one, in seventeen eighty seven, he was publicly

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Speaker 2: involved in anti slavery activism. So it took him a

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Speaker 2: while they got there, but while he was a young slaver.

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Speaker 2: I really love this framework. I really love how people

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Speaker 2: have started just basically being like a person who owns

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Speaker 2: people as a slaver, because people are all like hearing

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Speaker 2: that because it's like such a loaded and mean word,

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Speaker 2: and I'm like, yeah.

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Speaker 1: No, it's quite ingenious, to be fair, I haven't heard

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Speaker 1: it that often. And this episode, being like the epitome

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Speaker 1: at the top of the episode is slavers, I'm like,

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Speaker 1: you know what, yeah, okay.

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Speaker 2: So when Benjamin Franklin was a young slaver of twenty

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Speaker 2: one years old, he and his debate bros started a

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Speaker 2: library for their debate club. But books were real dang

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Speaker 2: expensive in the colonies because most of them had to

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Speaker 2: come from England. So they pulled their money and they

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Speaker 2: started what's known as a subscription library. Basically, this is

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Speaker 2: a library with membership dues. Only white men were allowed

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Speaker 2: in this particular library company. Of course, this is explicit

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Speaker 2: that only white men are allowed, and working class white

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Speaker 2: men couldn't afford it either. The library was also sort

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Speaker 2: of a big deal because most of its books were

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Speaker 2: in English, not Latin. Unlike existing libraries in the US,

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Speaker 2: non members could borrow books if they offered collateral. I

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Speaker 2: don't want to think too hard about what that collateral

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Speaker 2: could have entailed it. During this period of time, the

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Speaker 2: subscription library spread across the colonies and later the United States,

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Speaker 2: and they were the main type of library in the

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Speaker 2: United States until after the Civil War. Apparently there's twenty

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Speaker 2: of the old ones left in the US right now.

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Speaker 1: Really, yeah, I don't say, do you know where.

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Speaker 2: I actually think that the Philly one is still around,

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Speaker 2: the one he started, And there's also this one in Burlington,

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Speaker 2: New Jersey that's still around. I actually don't know if

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Speaker 2: these are still subscription models, though. I just know that

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Speaker 2: those two those are two examples of subscription libraries that

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Speaker 2: are still around. I don't know whether they're still subscription.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I love libraries. I just went to the one

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Speaker 1: in Seattle. When I went to Boston, I went to

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Speaker 1: the Aris. Beautiful. They're so beautiful, I know, Like I

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Speaker 1: love old libraries are so great.

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Speaker 2: I know, and then even some of the new ones are,

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Speaker 2: like the architecture is actually often really beautiful. Like I

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Speaker 2: really like how libraries are kind of they're like one

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Speaker 2: of our only public buildings that people really use and

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Speaker 2: are for the public. Like obviously our government buildings are

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Speaker 2: like for the public, but they're like kind of not

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Speaker 2: and there's like you got to go through a metal

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Speaker 2: detector and everyone stares at you eight and like or

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Speaker 2: you're there because you committed a crime or whatever, you know,

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Speaker 2: And yeah, I feel like people take a lot of

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Speaker 2: pride in their libraries.

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Speaker 1: Like the Seattle one, I know, it's got to be

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Speaker 1: a new one that, like the architecture in itself is amazing,

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Speaker 1: but like, like I said, but going to the Boston one,

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Speaker 1: it's just a good library. Man, Yeah, there's something about it.

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Speaker 2: No, I agree. Old Ben sort of actually young Ben

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Speaker 2: at the time sort of accidentally started the first public

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Speaker 2: lending library in the US too. Well actually, okay, no,

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Speaker 2: it is Old Ben at this point. And I've read

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Speaker 2: a million different ones claiming to be the first, but

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Speaker 2: let's pretend this one's the first for now. There is

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Speaker 2: a town called Franklin, Massachusetts that was like basically, hey,

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Speaker 2: if we name ourselves after this guy, maybe whole night

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Speaker 2: by us a nice like bell for our town.

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Speaker 1: Oh really?

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Speaker 2: And then instead he gave them books.

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Speaker 1: Okay, did they like this or no?

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Speaker 2: I know later they've taken a lot of pride in this. Okay, Okay,

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Speaker 2: you how many books it costs to get a town

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Speaker 2: named after you.

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Speaker 1: So I'm gonna say four hundred and one.

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Speaker 2: One hundred and sixteen.

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Speaker 1: What it tastes less than a school.

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Speaker 2: I know, if any towns are listening, you want to

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Speaker 2: change your name to Killjoy, I will give you one

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Speaker 2: hundred and sixteen books one seventeen. I think I have

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Speaker 2: that many on my shelf of it. So he gave

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Speaker 2: them these books, and then the year that Franklin died,

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Speaker 2: which is some number of years afterwards, in seventeen ninety,

427
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Speaker 2: he died, and they voted that they would lend the

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00:21:54,800 --> 00:21:57,960
Speaker 2: books out for free to their residence. So this becomes

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Speaker 2: the first public lending library in the United States. But

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Speaker 2: then there's still another, like first, there's the first tax

431
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Speaker 2: payer supported whatever.

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Speaker 1: Any will get to it, uh huh.

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Speaker 2: But it took for there to be a bunch of

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Speaker 2: non waspy people in the United States for the idea

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Speaker 2: of free public libraries to really take off. The wave

436
00:22:18,840 --> 00:22:22,680
Speaker 2: of immigration in the nineteenth century brought more emphasis on

437
00:22:22,720 --> 00:22:25,320
Speaker 2: the idea of free public education, which I started to

438
00:22:25,440 --> 00:22:27,439
Speaker 2: go down a rabbit hole about and realize that's a

439
00:22:27,440 --> 00:22:32,840
Speaker 2: whole different topic. And also the idea of free public libraries.

440
00:22:33,440 --> 00:22:35,360
Speaker 2: There had been public schools in the US running way

441
00:22:35,359 --> 00:22:37,480
Speaker 2: back to be clear, But my best inference from the

442
00:22:37,520 --> 00:22:40,119
Speaker 2: sources is that once you had these like non wasps around,

443
00:22:40,119 --> 00:22:44,080
Speaker 2: they're like, hell yeah, public schools and libraries, that seems

444
00:22:44,119 --> 00:22:46,960
Speaker 2: like what we should do with our time and our money.

445
00:22:47,440 --> 00:22:51,280
Speaker 2: The first taxpayer supported public library in the United States

446
00:22:51,400 --> 00:22:56,639
Speaker 2: was in Petersborough, New Hampshire, in eighteen thirty three. Basically,

447
00:22:56,800 --> 00:22:58,960
Speaker 2: running the library takes money, and there wasn't a method

448
00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:03,760
Speaker 2: by which they could get that money until later. Subscription

449
00:23:03,840 --> 00:23:06,760
Speaker 2: model libraries are spreading all over and most are white

450
00:23:06,760 --> 00:23:09,600
Speaker 2: men only, right, So what do middle class white women,

451
00:23:09,880 --> 00:23:14,320
Speaker 2: free black people. What do other people do? Well, they

452
00:23:14,320 --> 00:23:17,080
Speaker 2: start their own libraries and they start spreading them. And

453
00:23:17,119 --> 00:23:20,240
Speaker 2: those are usually also subscription libraries or what gets called

454
00:23:20,280 --> 00:23:24,119
Speaker 2: literary societies, which are more like pooled books and stuff.

455
00:23:24,920 --> 00:23:26,520
Speaker 2: These are the groups that are actually going to make

456
00:23:26,520 --> 00:23:28,720
Speaker 2: public libraries a thing in the United States. You're going

457
00:23:28,760 --> 00:23:33,040
Speaker 2: to be shocked to know that the Phoenix Society of

458
00:23:33,040 --> 00:23:35,480
Speaker 2: New York City of the early eighteen hundreds helped create

459
00:23:35,520 --> 00:23:39,720
Speaker 2: circulating libraries for people of color. In eighteen thirty three,

460
00:23:39,760 --> 00:23:43,640
Speaker 2: folks started the Philadelphia Library Company of Colored People, which

461
00:23:43,680 --> 00:23:45,439
Speaker 2: is just literally the same idea of like, let's have

462
00:23:45,440 --> 00:23:48,520
Speaker 2: a library company only I guess you know we are

463
00:23:48,840 --> 00:23:51,000
Speaker 2: black people, so we'll let black people in.

464
00:23:51,560 --> 00:23:51,679
Speaker 1: Right.

465
00:23:52,640 --> 00:23:56,400
Speaker 2: In eighteen thirty nine, The Colored American, a newspaper suggested

466
00:23:56,400 --> 00:23:58,879
Speaker 2: that folks should go to community libraries and have it

467
00:23:58,920 --> 00:24:02,359
Speaker 2: be there quote place of resorts. And thus, instead of

468
00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:06,000
Speaker 2: injuring their health, wasting their money, and acquiring immoral habits,

469
00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:09,600
Speaker 2: they might be storing their minds with useful knowledge and

470
00:24:10,200 --> 00:24:14,080
Speaker 2: might also establish for themselves a character which time itself

471
00:24:14,119 --> 00:24:17,359
Speaker 2: could not destroy. And so yeah, you get this, like

472
00:24:18,040 --> 00:24:19,960
Speaker 2: here's how to actually improve yourself as you go to

473
00:24:20,040 --> 00:24:23,080
Speaker 2: the library. Yeah, you know, right. And it's like I

474
00:24:23,080 --> 00:24:24,919
Speaker 2: didn't even disagree with that, but it still like rubs

475
00:24:24,920 --> 00:24:25,440
Speaker 2: me the wrong way.

476
00:24:25,960 --> 00:24:26,080
Speaker 1: Oh.

477
00:24:27,240 --> 00:24:33,399
Speaker 3: I was like wait what But yeah, a lot of

478
00:24:33,440 --> 00:24:36,320
Speaker 3: the middle class white women's societies were just as bigoted

479
00:24:36,400 --> 00:24:37,440
Speaker 3: as the men's societies.

480
00:24:37,480 --> 00:24:42,080
Speaker 2: This is going to shock you, and they would prevent Jewish, black,

481
00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:46,040
Speaker 2: and working class white women from joining. So all those

482
00:24:46,080 --> 00:24:51,720
Speaker 2: groups of women started their own also, right, And libraries

483
00:24:51,760 --> 00:24:53,880
Speaker 2: were a particular importance to people who are kept out

484
00:24:53,880 --> 00:24:57,760
Speaker 2: of traditional educational environments. Right, You're like, well, I want

485
00:24:57,760 --> 00:24:59,639
Speaker 2: to go learn and that school won't let me in

486
00:24:59,680 --> 00:25:03,680
Speaker 2: because i I'm black or a woman or poor, whatever

487
00:25:03,680 --> 00:25:08,280
Speaker 2: the hell. You know, there were enough literary clubs for

488
00:25:08,359 --> 00:25:12,480
Speaker 2: black women specifically that by eighteen ninety six they formed

489
00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:16,560
Speaker 2: the National Association of Colored Women's Clubs. And these women

490
00:25:16,760 --> 00:25:20,560
Speaker 2: were social reformers who pushed for literacy, anti lynching, and

491
00:25:20,760 --> 00:25:25,720
Speaker 2: spreading libraries in the South. And they also and I

492
00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:27,919
Speaker 2: can't tell if this is exactly who invented it, but

493
00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:29,919
Speaker 2: these are like the people who popularize it is these

494
00:25:29,920 --> 00:25:33,480
Speaker 2: women's clubs. And then also specifically this coalition of black

495
00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:36,160
Speaker 2: women's clubs the bookmobile.

496
00:25:36,600 --> 00:25:38,280
Speaker 1: Oh I was wondering for you.

497
00:25:38,440 --> 00:25:43,159
Speaker 2: Okay, Yeah, they like, we're like, well, we need books

498
00:25:43,160 --> 00:25:46,160
Speaker 2: to go places, and people can't get to the library,

499
00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:49,200
Speaker 2: so we'll bring the library to them and drive around

500
00:25:49,240 --> 00:25:51,720
Speaker 2: with books. And that is fucking cool.

501
00:25:51,960 --> 00:25:55,439
Speaker 1: Yes, they still exist today. Yeah, some of the more

502
00:25:55,440 --> 00:25:57,080
Speaker 1: popular ones are ran by black women.

503
00:25:57,640 --> 00:25:59,760
Speaker 2: That doesn't surprise me. A lot of the first ones

504
00:25:59,800 --> 00:26:05,720
Speaker 2: were too. Mutual aid societies built out of various trade

505
00:26:05,720 --> 00:26:10,480
Speaker 2: associations and shit also would do reading libraries, so like unions.

506
00:26:10,520 --> 00:26:13,840
Speaker 2: And then also the sort of kind of proto insurance

507
00:26:13,880 --> 00:26:16,399
Speaker 2: companies that were actually like instead of exploitative, were like

508
00:26:16,440 --> 00:26:18,439
Speaker 2: a mutual aid thing where people would get together and

509
00:26:18,440 --> 00:26:20,600
Speaker 2: pool their money so that if you die, your funeral

510
00:26:20,680 --> 00:26:23,720
Speaker 2: cost is taken care of her whatever rate. These folks

511
00:26:23,720 --> 00:26:26,320
Speaker 2: would also build libraries for the communities that they were serving.

512
00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:30,840
Speaker 2: The Mechanics Institute of San Francisco in eighteen fifty four

513
00:26:31,040 --> 00:26:34,760
Speaker 2: was open to all, regardless of race or gender, and

514
00:26:35,520 --> 00:26:38,520
Speaker 2: without public financing. It only lasts until eighteen fifty eight,

515
00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:42,480
Speaker 2: but a four year run of a library that doesn't

516
00:26:42,480 --> 00:26:45,639
Speaker 2: discriminate is pretty good thing to pull off. In the

517
00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:51,720
Speaker 2: eighteen fifties, the inventor of the cable car, andrew S. Hallidi,

518
00:26:52,280 --> 00:26:53,919
Speaker 2: was a veteran of it, and he later went on

519
00:26:53,960 --> 00:26:57,280
Speaker 2: to push for public libraries in San Francisco. So, lots

520
00:26:57,280 --> 00:27:00,760
Speaker 2: of good stuff coming out of it. But you know

521
00:27:00,800 --> 00:27:04,200
Speaker 2: what didn't come out of mutual aid societies? Well, actually,

522
00:27:04,280 --> 00:27:06,480
Speaker 2: I guess I just said insurance companies. Did clearly bad

523
00:27:06,520 --> 00:27:10,320
Speaker 2: things come out of good things? Yeah? No, Well, the

524
00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:15,919
Speaker 2: ads come out of this podcast much like what's that

525
00:27:15,960 --> 00:27:21,040
Speaker 2: word for? When people to parthenogenesis, When people used to

526
00:27:21,040 --> 00:27:23,320
Speaker 2: think that rather than like sexual reproduction, flies were just

527
00:27:23,320 --> 00:27:27,840
Speaker 2: like formed wholesale out of like rotting meat some word

528
00:27:27,920 --> 00:27:33,119
Speaker 2: for it. That's how ads come out of podcasts, just

529
00:27:33,240 --> 00:27:36,880
Speaker 2: like flies are formed out of rotting meat. Here's the ads,

530
00:27:45,040 --> 00:27:47,160
Speaker 2: and we're back, and I'm continuing to wonder how long

531
00:27:47,119 --> 00:27:49,080
Speaker 2: I'm be able to get away with this word.

532
00:27:49,160 --> 00:27:51,720
Speaker 1: So far, we can't do this on our show, so

533
00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:52,440
Speaker 1: I'm loving.

534
00:27:56,480 --> 00:27:57,000
Speaker 2: Keep going.

535
00:27:59,520 --> 00:27:59,760
Speaker 1: Sorry.

536
00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:03,879
Speaker 2: Other libraries were started by paternalistic employers for their employees

537
00:28:03,880 --> 00:28:05,880
Speaker 2: instead of like paying them better. They're like, oh, look,

538
00:28:05,880 --> 00:28:07,760
Speaker 2: I'm going to take care of you. Here's a library.

539
00:28:08,080 --> 00:28:09,840
Speaker 2: You know, it's like the pizza party of the eighteen

540
00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:13,560
Speaker 2: seventies or whatever. You know, here's some books, which is

541
00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:16,840
Speaker 2: better that No, I just like pizza and books. Never mind,

542
00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:18,600
Speaker 2: I don't want to put them out against each other.

543
00:28:19,600 --> 00:28:22,600
Speaker 2: And there's this like this is for self improvement vibe

544
00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:25,800
Speaker 2: that comes from most of the promoters of these libraries, right,

545
00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:29,320
Speaker 2: whether it's the employers, whether it's the mutual aid societies,

546
00:28:29,359 --> 00:28:32,520
Speaker 2: whether it's the literary groups, whatever it is, right, they're like,

547
00:28:32,560 --> 00:28:34,560
Speaker 2: this is so we can all become better people and

548
00:28:34,640 --> 00:28:38,720
Speaker 2: read all this philosophy. But you want to know people

549
00:28:38,720 --> 00:28:43,600
Speaker 2: actually wanted out of libraries. What they wanted fiction, They

550
00:28:44,320 --> 00:28:47,720
Speaker 2: wanted entertainment, they wanted escapism, they wanted pulp.

551
00:28:48,360 --> 00:28:49,960
Speaker 1: They wanted the naughty stuff.

552
00:28:50,680 --> 00:28:52,400
Speaker 2: That's absolutely true too.

553
00:28:52,440 --> 00:28:52,920
Speaker 1: There was a.

554
00:28:54,440 --> 00:28:56,680
Speaker 2: Oh, there's this whole thing. Oh, I don't have any

555
00:28:56,720 --> 00:28:58,280
Speaker 2: kind of notes about it in front of me. There's

556
00:28:58,320 --> 00:29:00,200
Speaker 2: this whole thing we're in order to get. It was

557
00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:03,320
Speaker 2: illegal to promote sex education for a very long time

558
00:29:03,320 --> 00:29:06,520
Speaker 2: across England and the United States, and so it was

559
00:29:06,560 --> 00:29:09,160
Speaker 2: also illegal to print smut. So if you're going to

560
00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:11,360
Speaker 2: do one, why not do the other. So there was

561
00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:14,080
Speaker 2: all this smut that had sex education written into it

562
00:29:14,120 --> 00:29:16,080
Speaker 2: because it was like already a crime. So and it

563
00:29:16,160 --> 00:29:19,120
Speaker 2: was like the same printer would be printing all of

564
00:29:19,160 --> 00:29:21,360
Speaker 2: the illegal books. So it was like, wow, we're all

565
00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:22,479
Speaker 2: using the same shit. Anyway.

566
00:29:22,560 --> 00:29:25,560
Speaker 1: So I feel like we talked about not this specifically,

567
00:29:25,600 --> 00:29:26,960
Speaker 1: but something about smut before.

568
00:29:27,080 --> 00:29:30,000
Speaker 2: Have we wait, were you on the birth control episode?

569
00:29:30,160 --> 00:29:30,360
Speaker 1: Yes?

570
00:29:30,520 --> 00:29:32,600
Speaker 2: I think so, Yeah, No, I probably talked about this

571
00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:32,960
Speaker 2: a lot.

572
00:29:33,320 --> 00:29:36,960
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, I'm like, I know, I've been asleep since then,

573
00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:39,600
Speaker 1: have had many things happen, But I'm pretty sure this

574
00:29:39,680 --> 00:29:41,480
Speaker 1: was the conversation you and I had, because I love

575
00:29:41,560 --> 00:29:44,720
Speaker 1: these conversations anyway. When it's like it's a little bit naughty,

576
00:29:45,080 --> 00:29:48,040
Speaker 1: but it's also for your knowledge, and like everybody wants

577
00:29:48,080 --> 00:29:51,600
Speaker 1: more of it because it's the naughty that gets their attraction.

578
00:29:51,640 --> 00:29:53,960
Speaker 1: But they're getting educated, and I love everything about that.

579
00:29:54,680 --> 00:29:58,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, Like imagine like just teaching condoms through right smutes.

580
00:29:58,680 --> 00:30:01,120
Speaker 1: It's amazing we did. They were on the street corners

581
00:30:01,200 --> 00:30:06,280
Speaker 1: right and getting arrested for indecent materials. See I remember, yeah, yeah,

582
00:30:06,360 --> 00:30:08,360
Speaker 1: you teach me things. I love this. Keep going.

583
00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:12,440
Speaker 2: Hell yeah. To quote an article by the Los Angeles

584
00:30:12,520 --> 00:30:17,080
Speaker 2: Public Library about this time, the founding of public libraries

585
00:30:17,160 --> 00:30:22,720
Speaker 2: hardly resolve the education slash recreation conflict. In eighteen ninety three,

586
00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:26,680
Speaker 2: the American Library Association issued a guide for small libraries.

587
00:30:27,400 --> 00:30:30,719
Speaker 2: Out of the five thousand titles they recommended, only eight

588
00:30:30,840 --> 00:30:34,560
Speaker 2: hundred and three were fiction. Yet in that period, public

589
00:30:34,600 --> 00:30:37,680
Speaker 2: libraries reported that between sixty five and ninety percent of

590
00:30:37,720 --> 00:30:41,000
Speaker 2: books borrowed were works of fiction. And so you just

591
00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:43,920
Speaker 2: have like five novels that everyone keeps checking out over

592
00:30:43,960 --> 00:30:44,480
Speaker 2: and over again.

593
00:30:44,600 --> 00:30:45,680
Speaker 1: Waldo, it's so bad.

594
00:30:46,120 --> 00:30:49,280
Speaker 2: You know how to rewire the electricity in your nineteen

595
00:30:49,320 --> 00:30:53,680
Speaker 2: twenties home book just stays there, which is why more

596
00:30:53,720 --> 00:30:55,440
Speaker 2: people should be writing the fiction with how to do

597
00:30:55,560 --> 00:31:00,240
Speaker 2: DIY electrical Nope, that's how people die. Never mind, I'm

598
00:31:00,280 --> 00:31:02,400
Speaker 2: just going to start writing in like how to do

599
00:31:02,520 --> 00:31:04,920
Speaker 2: DC because DC power isn't danger anyway.

600
00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:06,440
Speaker 1: Whatever, right, Okay, okay, you know this is what happens

601
00:31:06,440 --> 00:31:08,360
Speaker 1: with TikTok when they're like, you can drink bleach and

602
00:31:08,360 --> 00:31:08,960
Speaker 1: you'll be fine.

603
00:31:09,520 --> 00:31:12,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, what could go wrong? I can't imagine what could

604
00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:12,600
Speaker 2: go wrong?

605
00:31:13,880 --> 00:31:15,160
Speaker 1: Anyway, don't do that, kids.

606
00:31:15,520 --> 00:31:20,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, libraries are put at the feet of Ben Franklin

607
00:31:20,320 --> 00:31:25,400
Speaker 2: and one other man, Andrew Carnegie. And I don't know

608
00:31:25,520 --> 00:31:28,040
Speaker 2: what towns you all live in, but almost every town

609
00:31:28,040 --> 00:31:30,240
Speaker 2: I've lived in has like a Carnegie building, like a

610
00:31:30,680 --> 00:31:34,760
Speaker 2: Carnegie library or whatever. Right something. Yeah, we'll get to

611
00:31:34,840 --> 00:31:37,880
Speaker 2: him in a second. But it is these first free

612
00:31:37,920 --> 00:31:40,880
Speaker 2: black libraries and then the women's groups that really do

613
00:31:40,960 --> 00:31:45,240
Speaker 2: the work to make libraries possible, especially the tax supported

614
00:31:45,280 --> 00:31:48,680
Speaker 2: part of the equation. It was the New York Secretary

615
00:31:48,720 --> 00:31:51,880
Speaker 2: of State John Adam Dix, which is a funny name

616
00:31:51,920 --> 00:31:54,840
Speaker 2: because I am an adult, who came up with the

617
00:31:54,920 --> 00:31:59,080
Speaker 2: library model in eighteen thirty four that led to modern libraries.

618
00:31:59,280 --> 00:32:03,200
Speaker 2: He wrote, if the inhabitants of school districts were authorized

619
00:32:03,200 --> 00:32:05,560
Speaker 2: to lay a tax upon their property for the purpose

620
00:32:05,600 --> 00:32:08,520
Speaker 2: of purchasing libraries for use in the district. Such a

621
00:32:08,600 --> 00:32:12,440
Speaker 2: power might become a most efficient instrument in diffusing useful

622
00:32:12,480 --> 00:32:17,160
Speaker 2: knowledge and elevating the intellectual character of people. So once again,

623
00:32:17,560 --> 00:32:20,840
Speaker 2: in order to let people read trashy romance novels, we

624
00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:23,520
Speaker 2: always have to be like, we swear there's going to

625
00:32:23,560 --> 00:32:24,920
Speaker 2: be philosophy books there.

626
00:32:25,600 --> 00:32:27,320
Speaker 1: We're going to talk about Jesus in here somewhere as

627
00:32:27,360 --> 00:32:28,160
Speaker 1: fine as fine.

628
00:32:28,440 --> 00:32:33,240
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. The first large scale public library again first whatever.

629
00:32:33,480 --> 00:32:35,479
Speaker 2: It was actually the Boston Public Library, which you were

630
00:32:35,480 --> 00:32:38,400
Speaker 2: talking about earlier. It's beautiful. I know. I went to

631
00:32:38,480 --> 00:32:40,080
Speaker 2: two branches of it the other day. I was on

632
00:32:40,080 --> 00:32:42,800
Speaker 2: tour because I went to one and it was where

633
00:32:42,800 --> 00:32:46,600
Speaker 2: my book talk was and the fire department was clearing

634
00:32:46,640 --> 00:32:49,440
Speaker 2: it out because there was smoke in the building and

635
00:32:49,480 --> 00:32:50,920
Speaker 2: so they had to move it to the other one.

636
00:32:51,080 --> 00:32:53,080
Speaker 2: And I never quite got a straight answer about why

637
00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:56,080
Speaker 2: that happened, and it probably was the HVAC system going wrong.

638
00:32:56,200 --> 00:33:01,240
Speaker 2: But the same day, elsewhere in Boston, like drag Queen's

639
00:33:01,280 --> 00:33:03,920
Speaker 2: Story Hour was being attacked by the right wing. So

640
00:33:05,280 --> 00:33:07,680
Speaker 2: I put a like non zero chance and if you're

641
00:33:07,720 --> 00:33:12,200
Speaker 2: listening fascists who hypothetical fascist who tried to shit down

642
00:33:12,200 --> 00:33:15,200
Speaker 2: my event. Well, we had it in another branch of

643
00:33:15,240 --> 00:33:17,480
Speaker 2: the public library about a half mile down the street,

644
00:33:17,640 --> 00:33:20,479
Speaker 2: and it was still full and everyone got their steps in,

645
00:33:20,680 --> 00:33:24,640
Speaker 2: so fuck you. Yeah, jokes on you. Yeah, he did great.

646
00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:28,800
Speaker 1: I would just like to add one thing, haha and

647
00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:29,360
Speaker 1: fuck you.

648
00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:33,280
Speaker 2: And if it was just the HVAC system going wrong,

649
00:33:33,920 --> 00:33:36,200
Speaker 2: well thanks librarians. You did a really good job of

650
00:33:36,200 --> 00:33:38,960
Speaker 2: handling all that. They were so on top of it.

651
00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:40,680
Speaker 2: At no point was I like, what's going to happen.

652
00:33:40,760 --> 00:33:43,520
Speaker 2: They were like, wait, anyway, whatever. I love librarians just

653
00:33:43,560 --> 00:33:48,520
Speaker 2: to say hahuh yeah and fuck you. Yeah. Some of

654
00:33:48,520 --> 00:33:50,120
Speaker 2: the people relate to the talker. They were like, sorry,

655
00:33:50,160 --> 00:33:52,440
Speaker 2: we were busy driving away fascist elsewhere in town. And

656
00:33:52,440 --> 00:33:54,080
Speaker 2: I was like, oh my god, that's amazing. And they

657
00:33:54,200 --> 00:33:55,520
Speaker 2: successfully had driven them away.

658
00:33:55,640 --> 00:33:57,640
Speaker 1: That's amazing. Well done.

659
00:33:57,720 --> 00:34:02,080
Speaker 2: You listeners are some of the best people. So the

660
00:34:02,120 --> 00:34:04,640
Speaker 2: Boston Public Library I opened in eighteen fifty four with

661
00:34:04,760 --> 00:34:07,640
Speaker 2: sixteen thousand books, which is more than I can afford

662
00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:11,520
Speaker 2: to donate. So I can't start a new Boston Public Library.

663
00:34:11,560 --> 00:34:16,560
Speaker 2: I'm sorry, but any Massachusetts resident could borrow any of

664
00:34:16,560 --> 00:34:21,200
Speaker 2: those sixteen thousand books. And all these private libraries are

665
00:34:21,200 --> 00:34:23,359
Speaker 2: still going at this point, right. A lot of them

666
00:34:23,360 --> 00:34:26,319
Speaker 2: are associated with bookstores. It's like Blockbuster for books. You

667
00:34:26,360 --> 00:34:29,080
Speaker 2: go in and you can rent a book. These started

668
00:34:29,120 --> 00:34:32,520
Speaker 2: to fall away as the price of books dropped after

669
00:34:32,560 --> 00:34:35,080
Speaker 2: the Civil War, and so the middle class started buying

670
00:34:35,120 --> 00:34:38,640
Speaker 2: books at that point. So it's after the Civil War,

671
00:34:39,280 --> 00:34:40,799
Speaker 2: and I have no idea why the Civil War made

672
00:34:40,800 --> 00:34:44,480
Speaker 2: books cheap. I couldn't find it quickly and easily. And

673
00:34:44,520 --> 00:34:46,879
Speaker 2: now whenever you type questions into Google, it gives you

674
00:34:47,239 --> 00:34:49,240
Speaker 2: lie answers from a hallucinating machine.

675
00:34:49,280 --> 00:34:51,719
Speaker 1: So yeah, that's so annoying, isn't it.

676
00:34:51,760 --> 00:34:54,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, Because then like anytime you do that and you

677
00:34:54,200 --> 00:34:55,680
Speaker 2: get like an answer, and you're like, well, now I

678
00:34:55,680 --> 00:34:58,279
Speaker 2: got to go fact check that this is slower than

679
00:34:58,320 --> 00:34:59,520
Speaker 2: if I just looked anyway with it.

680
00:34:59,640 --> 00:35:02,720
Speaker 1: Yeah. I refuse to even look at acknowledge it exists.

681
00:35:03,080 --> 00:35:03,880
Speaker 1: I bypass it.

682
00:35:04,239 --> 00:35:07,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, which even ties into the whole librarians thing. I

683
00:35:07,480 --> 00:35:10,640
Speaker 2: could probably get a library and to tell me why books? Yes, Okay,

684
00:35:10,719 --> 00:35:12,239
Speaker 2: Usually I do this thing where if I don't know

685
00:35:12,320 --> 00:35:14,439
Speaker 2: something on the show, I ask people to not tell

686
00:35:14,480 --> 00:35:17,400
Speaker 2: me afterwards. But if you, dear listener, know why books

687
00:35:17,400 --> 00:35:20,160
Speaker 2: got cheaper after the Civil War, you can tell me

688
00:35:20,200 --> 00:35:25,440
Speaker 2: on Twitter or Instagram, because I am curious. But libraries

689
00:35:25,440 --> 00:35:27,879
Speaker 2: started spreading around after the Civil War, and as best

690
00:35:27,880 --> 00:35:30,880
Speaker 2: as I can tell, this happened at the behest of

691
00:35:31,160 --> 00:35:34,720
Speaker 2: two groups, well, one individual and then one like group

692
00:35:34,760 --> 00:35:38,200
Speaker 2: of groups. The second half of the nineteenth century was

693
00:35:38,239 --> 00:35:41,640
Speaker 2: known as the Gilded Age, where wealth inequality reached such

694
00:35:41,760 --> 00:35:45,480
Speaker 2: drastic extremes that the modern labor movement was born and

695
00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:47,920
Speaker 2: there were constant riots and people would like throw dynamite

696
00:35:47,920 --> 00:35:52,359
Speaker 2: at business owners and shit, and it's way worse now.

697
00:35:53,120 --> 00:35:56,680
Speaker 2: Guilded Age is like the most famously fantastical. Look at

698
00:35:56,680 --> 00:36:01,200
Speaker 2: these robber barons sitting in their fancy palaces. It is

699
00:36:01,320 --> 00:36:04,320
Speaker 2: so much worse as of twenty twenty one. Yeah, twenty

700
00:36:04,440 --> 00:36:07,880
Speaker 2: seven hundred and fifty billionaires are wealthier than half the planet.

701
00:36:07,960 --> 00:36:10,799
Speaker 1: And people who are affected by them are defending them.

702
00:36:11,280 --> 00:36:14,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's true too, And that's one of the saddest parts.

703
00:36:15,280 --> 00:36:17,000
Speaker 2: I mean, it's funny because I think it's from this

704
00:36:17,080 --> 00:36:18,960
Speaker 2: era that you get the quote that I got. It

705
00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:20,920
Speaker 2: might have been Carnegie, but I don't know. Someone has

706
00:36:20,920 --> 00:36:22,880
Speaker 2: the quote I could hire one half of the working

707
00:36:22,920 --> 00:36:24,080
Speaker 2: class to kill the other half.

708
00:36:25,040 --> 00:36:27,080
Speaker 1: I would assume that was just Elon Musk.

709
00:36:27,719 --> 00:36:29,719
Speaker 2: I know, right, but it was the nineteenth century version

710
00:36:29,719 --> 00:36:32,200
Speaker 2: of Elon Musk is only fifty three years old. I

711
00:36:32,200 --> 00:36:33,880
Speaker 2: had to look it up today because I didn't believe it.

712
00:36:34,160 --> 00:36:36,920
Speaker 1: I just recently saw some like pictures from college.

713
00:36:37,040 --> 00:36:38,560
Speaker 2: He just has always looked old and weird.

714
00:36:39,160 --> 00:36:43,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it's I it's kind.

715
00:36:43,160 --> 00:36:45,319
Speaker 2: Of a nerving I genuinely thought that man was in

716
00:36:45,360 --> 00:36:47,880
Speaker 2: at least his mid sixties and just like had some

717
00:36:47,960 --> 00:36:50,880
Speaker 2: plastic surgery. I assumed he was close in age with Trump.

718
00:36:51,120 --> 00:36:56,000
Speaker 2: That's why he felt so kindred to him. Yeah, anyway,

719
00:36:56,440 --> 00:36:59,760
Speaker 2: before that man continues to invade my brain space further.

720
00:37:01,640 --> 00:37:04,520
Speaker 2: The other thing that is wildly different between the guilded

721
00:37:04,520 --> 00:37:08,080
Speaker 2: age again, the most famous time of wealth inequality in

722
00:37:08,120 --> 00:37:11,479
Speaker 2: our country's history and now is that the super rich.

723
00:37:11,520 --> 00:37:16,600
Speaker 2: Back then, we're known for extravagant shows of wealth, including charity,

724
00:37:17,280 --> 00:37:19,600
Speaker 2: in a way that they're not known for now. Are

725
00:37:19,600 --> 00:37:23,080
Speaker 2: you sure well the extravan shows of wealth, yes, But honestly,

726
00:37:23,120 --> 00:37:26,200
Speaker 2: even that charity today is definitely just to get more money,

727
00:37:27,080 --> 00:37:29,520
Speaker 2: is just to show off, right, but what I'm saying

728
00:37:29,560 --> 00:37:32,040
Speaker 2: is that like a lot of the people in the

729
00:37:32,080 --> 00:37:35,880
Speaker 2: Gilded Age genuinely gave away most of their money.

730
00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:39,560
Speaker 1: Oh so they were actually nice or that's what you're saying.

731
00:37:39,640 --> 00:37:43,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, like they were doing a good despite being evil

732
00:37:43,320 --> 00:37:46,640
Speaker 2: people like who have exploited the working class, and so

733
00:37:46,800 --> 00:37:50,480
Speaker 2: they're like paternalistic to the working class. Right, they're like,

734
00:37:50,760 --> 00:37:52,840
Speaker 2: you don't get to decide what to do with money.

735
00:37:52,920 --> 00:37:54,759
Speaker 2: I want you to make all of this stuff so

736
00:37:54,800 --> 00:37:57,120
Speaker 2: I can extract the surplus value that you make for me,

737
00:37:57,440 --> 00:38:00,400
Speaker 2: and then I will decide what is best for society.

738
00:38:00,960 --> 00:38:04,960
Speaker 2: But they're still like trying to do that, some of

739
00:38:05,000 --> 00:38:07,600
Speaker 2: them in a way that you just like, I mean,

740
00:38:07,640 --> 00:38:09,680
Speaker 2: I guess you're like warm buffetter or whatever, but like

741
00:38:09,760 --> 00:38:13,040
Speaker 2: but like overall okay, and then even to like extravagant

742
00:38:13,040 --> 00:38:16,000
Speaker 2: shows of wealth in my mind, like I don't mind

743
00:38:16,040 --> 00:38:19,440
Speaker 2: them at gala as compared to like the billionaires who

744
00:38:19,560 --> 00:38:22,879
Speaker 2: just wear like frumpy clothes or whatever, because they're trying

745
00:38:22,880 --> 00:38:25,640
Speaker 2: to be all like proletarian and shit. Like no, you're

746
00:38:25,760 --> 00:38:29,879
Speaker 2: like a decadent god king, right, be a decadent god king?

747
00:38:29,920 --> 00:38:32,520
Speaker 2: What's wrong with you? Like if you're gonna be evil

748
00:38:32,600 --> 00:38:34,400
Speaker 2: have some class so.

749
00:38:34,440 --> 00:38:36,680
Speaker 1: That we could at least like identify you properly.

750
00:38:36,960 --> 00:38:40,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's true. Oh that's probably why is that America

751
00:38:40,960 --> 00:38:44,640
Speaker 2: is very armed. Anyway, we're talking about the nineteenth century

752
00:38:44,640 --> 00:38:49,160
Speaker 2: and not anything actionable today. One of the most famously

753
00:38:49,200 --> 00:38:53,239
Speaker 2: corrupt capitalists in history is Andrew Carnegie. His legacy is

754
00:38:53,320 --> 00:39:00,080
Speaker 2: paternalistic union busting and being an industrialist. He once wrote,

755
00:39:00,160 --> 00:39:04,319
Speaker 2: the man who dies thus rich, dies in disgrace. In

756
00:39:04,320 --> 00:39:06,200
Speaker 2: the last eighteen years of his life he gave away

757
00:39:06,280 --> 00:39:09,120
Speaker 2: ninety percent of his fortune. This still left him like

758
00:39:09,239 --> 00:39:13,440
Speaker 2: living like a king, right. And he wouldn't let his

759
00:39:13,520 --> 00:39:16,560
Speaker 2: workers unionize. A lot of people died because of his

760
00:39:17,080 --> 00:39:20,960
Speaker 2: union busting. He wouldn't pay them decent wages. He had

761
00:39:21,000 --> 00:39:24,040
Speaker 2: to accumulate their money and then dictate where that money

762
00:39:24,080 --> 00:39:27,960
Speaker 2: would go. That was his whole thing. And so he

763
00:39:28,040 --> 00:39:31,800
Speaker 2: paid for libraries, and that's why his name is remembered

764
00:39:31,840 --> 00:39:34,960
Speaker 2: so well today. There are so so many towns and

765
00:39:35,000 --> 00:39:38,120
Speaker 2: cities that have Carnegie buildings. And what he would do

766
00:39:38,960 --> 00:39:41,720
Speaker 2: is he would buy the building itself, but not actually

767
00:39:41,719 --> 00:39:45,400
Speaker 2: do the financing, like the ongoing financing of the library.

768
00:39:45,680 --> 00:39:48,120
Speaker 2: He didn't buy books, and he didn't pay for operations

769
00:39:48,120 --> 00:39:50,000
Speaker 2: that had to come from the local budget. I'm like,

770
00:39:50,080 --> 00:39:51,840
Speaker 2: not even mad about this part. He honestly like, this

771
00:39:51,880 --> 00:39:53,400
Speaker 2: seems like a decent setup. He wanted it to be

772
00:39:53,400 --> 00:39:57,080
Speaker 2: self perpetuating. You know, that comes out of the local budget.

773
00:39:57,280 --> 00:40:00,719
Speaker 2: About ninety percent of any given public libraries funding comes

774
00:40:00,719 --> 00:40:04,040
Speaker 2: from local taxes rather than state or federal taxes. And

775
00:40:04,080 --> 00:40:07,680
Speaker 2: that's why you see such a wild disparity in financing

776
00:40:07,719 --> 00:40:10,719
Speaker 2: and quality of different libraries, which I'm sure doesn't play

777
00:40:10,719 --> 00:40:13,360
Speaker 2: along race lines. Class and race are totally unrelated. Everyone

778
00:40:13,400 --> 00:40:16,960
Speaker 2: knows that's not. Yeah, yeah, and it would be totally

779
00:40:16,960 --> 00:40:21,160
Speaker 2: fine if it was anyway, whatever, So and so, in

780
00:40:21,239 --> 00:40:23,880
Speaker 2: order to get these buildings, they had to change the

781
00:40:23,880 --> 00:40:27,360
Speaker 2: local tax codes. Carnegie did not change the local tax codes.

782
00:40:27,960 --> 00:40:31,840
Speaker 2: He basically offered, if you do, I'll get you a building.

783
00:40:32,640 --> 00:40:36,600
Speaker 2: And so, town by town, city by city, women's literary

784
00:40:36,680 --> 00:40:40,880
Speaker 2: societies pushed for the amendments necessary to tax law to

785
00:40:41,000 --> 00:40:47,120
Speaker 2: allow for public libraries, and over the decades, together Carnegie

786
00:40:47,200 --> 00:40:51,160
Speaker 2: and these women literary societies opened one six hundred and

787
00:40:51,200 --> 00:40:55,520
Speaker 2: eighty seven libraries, which is a lot of libraries. That's

788
00:40:55,560 --> 00:40:58,160
Speaker 2: more than the number of books that I have offered

789
00:40:58,200 --> 00:41:02,520
Speaker 2: to get a town named after myself. Women's clubs are

790
00:41:02,960 --> 00:41:06,239
Speaker 2: frequently credited as making seventy five to eighty percent of

791
00:41:06,280 --> 00:41:09,680
Speaker 2: them happen, although one source I read claims that this

792
00:41:09,760 --> 00:41:12,239
Speaker 2: number is disputed. But I didn't fold far enough down

793
00:41:12,280 --> 00:41:15,600
Speaker 2: the rabbit hole to though exactly the methodology or whatever.

794
00:41:17,200 --> 00:41:20,480
Speaker 2: Some of these libraries were segregated and some were integrated. Richmond,

795
00:41:20,560 --> 00:41:22,799
Speaker 2: Virginia nineteen oh one was like, no, that's good, we

796
00:41:22,840 --> 00:41:25,680
Speaker 2: don't want a Carnegie library because they were afraid that

797
00:41:25,719 --> 00:41:28,120
Speaker 2: black people would be allowed to use it.

798
00:41:28,400 --> 00:41:29,719
Speaker 1: They couldn't get educated.

799
00:41:29,760 --> 00:41:32,759
Speaker 2: Oh no, yeah, and we'd have to be in the

800
00:41:32,800 --> 00:41:34,960
Speaker 2: same building as them too. You know, it's just it's

801
00:41:35,000 --> 00:41:39,399
Speaker 2: no good. Of the seventeen hundred libraries, twelve of them

802
00:41:39,480 --> 00:41:44,040
Speaker 2: were in specifically black communities as colored Carnegie Libraries, built

803
00:41:44,080 --> 00:41:47,800
Speaker 2: between nineteen oh eight and nineteen twenty four. That's it again.

804
00:41:47,840 --> 00:41:51,480
Speaker 2: Carnegie was while he was too young to be actively

805
00:41:51,520 --> 00:41:55,120
Speaker 2: an abolitionist, but he was not pro slavery to any

806
00:41:55,200 --> 00:41:58,680
Speaker 2: appreciable degree, and helped do a lot of the industrialization

807
00:41:58,760 --> 00:42:02,600
Speaker 2: necessary to make this happened. And he is a complicated man,

808
00:42:03,320 --> 00:42:06,360
Speaker 2: or rather he's not. He's a bastard, right, But it's

809
00:42:06,400 --> 00:42:09,759
Speaker 2: he's complicated because the US's history is so complicated that

810
00:42:09,840 --> 00:42:14,239
Speaker 2: like the industrialist who makes the Union be able to

811
00:42:14,280 --> 00:42:16,440
Speaker 2: defeat the South? Like looks good, you know.

812
00:42:16,520 --> 00:42:19,520
Speaker 1: Right, it doesn't take much. Let's just be really honest.

813
00:42:19,320 --> 00:42:24,600
Speaker 2: Yeah exactly. Libraries as public spaces were of course battlegrounds

814
00:42:24,600 --> 00:42:28,200
Speaker 2: for integration throughout the nineteen sixties, with so many people

815
00:42:28,440 --> 00:42:30,760
Speaker 2: getting arrested for being like, Hey, what if I'm allowed

816
00:42:30,760 --> 00:42:32,759
Speaker 2: to go to the library and like that my tax

817
00:42:32,800 --> 00:42:35,040
Speaker 2: dollars pay for Like, wouldn't it be wild? You know?

818
00:42:35,760 --> 00:42:36,440
Speaker 1: Yeah.

819
00:42:36,440 --> 00:42:39,720
Speaker 2: But before all that, in the golden age of public libraries,

820
00:42:39,760 --> 00:42:42,680
Speaker 2: when they were just getting their start, you started getting

821
00:42:42,719 --> 00:42:47,120
Speaker 2: librarians as an actual job. The first librarians were like

822
00:42:47,239 --> 00:42:50,120
Speaker 2: rich white men doing it as a second job. But

823
00:42:50,160 --> 00:42:53,759
Speaker 2: by nineteen hundred, women began to dominate the field, at

824
00:42:53,840 --> 00:42:57,200
Speaker 2: least in terms of numbers of workers. They were more

825
00:42:57,200 --> 00:42:59,320
Speaker 2: of the employees, but they had less of the power.

826
00:42:59,560 --> 00:43:03,200
Speaker 2: This is common across almost every field that women are

827
00:43:03,760 --> 00:43:07,920
Speaker 2: predominantly hired in to this day, like publishing, mainstream publishing.

828
00:43:09,280 --> 00:43:12,040
Speaker 2: Most editors are women, most of the people who own

829
00:43:12,120 --> 00:43:14,799
Speaker 2: the places are men, and most of the people they

830
00:43:14,800 --> 00:43:17,600
Speaker 2: publish are men. It's cool. It's great that women do

831
00:43:17,760 --> 00:43:21,279
Speaker 2: all of the uncredited labor to make information available that's

832
00:43:21,320 --> 00:43:22,000
Speaker 2: written by men.

833
00:43:22,960 --> 00:43:26,840
Speaker 1: I mean, history repeats itself constantly, and it happens today

834
00:43:27,040 --> 00:43:29,760
Speaker 1: and we can't do anything about it. Apparently.

835
00:43:30,480 --> 00:43:33,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, well we can always try. And actually, the person

836
00:43:33,760 --> 00:43:35,799
Speaker 2: that we're going to talk about on Wednesday, this is

837
00:43:35,840 --> 00:43:37,920
Speaker 2: not my break, but eventually, when we talk about who

838
00:43:37,920 --> 00:43:39,680
Speaker 2: we're going to talk about Wednesday, it's gonna be someone

839
00:43:39,680 --> 00:43:42,120
Speaker 2: who's gonna be doing a lot of that work of

840
00:43:42,160 --> 00:43:46,000
Speaker 2: getting things to be different. But there are very few

841
00:43:46,040 --> 00:43:48,600
Speaker 2: jobs available for women in librarian was one of them.

842
00:43:49,400 --> 00:43:52,240
Speaker 2: The first school of Library Science was founded by veteran

843
00:43:52,280 --> 00:43:56,360
Speaker 2: of behind the Bastards, Melville Dewey, inventor of the Dewey

844
00:43:56,400 --> 00:44:00,520
Speaker 2: decimal system. The other pastimes included sexually her seeing women

845
00:44:00,560 --> 00:44:03,920
Speaker 2: in the workplace, and instituting racist and anti semitic policies

846
00:44:03,920 --> 00:44:08,040
Speaker 2: and libraries and codifying all kinds of racism into the

847
00:44:08,200 --> 00:44:11,200
Speaker 2: system that is still used to determine which books go where.

848
00:44:11,760 --> 00:44:12,320
Speaker 1: Yeah.

849
00:44:12,440 --> 00:44:15,920
Speaker 2: Nice, Yeah, sorry, first library School. There's a lot of

850
00:44:15,960 --> 00:44:20,320
Speaker 2: bastards in library history, and it is from this first

851
00:44:20,320 --> 00:44:22,960
Speaker 2: generation of librarians who went to librarian school that used

852
00:44:22,960 --> 00:44:26,080
Speaker 2: to start to see people who just start turns shit

853
00:44:26,160 --> 00:44:30,080
Speaker 2: around and make libraries what they can be. Often are

854
00:44:30,239 --> 00:44:34,000
Speaker 2: not always successful, but they can be amazing, anti racist

855
00:44:34,040 --> 00:44:38,080
Speaker 2: spaces for community organizing. And that is what we're going

856
00:44:38,160 --> 00:44:42,360
Speaker 2: to talk about on Wednesday. That's my cliffhanger. Do you

857
00:44:42,360 --> 00:44:46,000
Speaker 2: feel like you're on a cliff holding I am hanging

858
00:44:46,280 --> 00:44:49,400
Speaker 2: on That's great because if it was a cliff faller,

859
00:44:49,480 --> 00:44:51,479
Speaker 2: it wouldn't be any good because then the reader would

860
00:44:51,480 --> 00:44:54,920
Speaker 2: be dashed to the rocks, the narrative rocks.

861
00:44:55,480 --> 00:44:58,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, we would have a whole different problem. Yeah, I'm

862
00:44:58,320 --> 00:44:59,799
Speaker 1: here hanging by the thread.

863
00:45:00,360 --> 00:45:03,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, But what if the listener is like, I don't

864
00:45:03,960 --> 00:45:06,320
Speaker 2: want to wait till Wednesday. I want to hear more

865
00:45:06,400 --> 00:45:08,960
Speaker 2: of Samantha McVay between now and then. Do you have

866
00:45:08,960 --> 00:45:10,000
Speaker 2: any ideas what they could do?

867
00:45:11,120 --> 00:45:14,279
Speaker 1: You could actually find me on stuff Mom never told you,

868
00:45:14,400 --> 00:45:17,680
Speaker 1: because we publish a lot of content within a week,

869
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Speaker 1: and you might even get tired of me. I think

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Speaker 1: most people have, but.

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Speaker 2: I don't believe it. I'll believe it when I see it.

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00:45:27,400 --> 00:45:30,879
Speaker 2: If you want to see me on tour and you

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Speaker 2: live in the US, then you might be able to

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00:45:34,160 --> 00:45:36,560
Speaker 2: do that. I am currently about a third of the

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00:45:36,560 --> 00:45:39,360
Speaker 2: way through a nationwide book tour with my book The

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Speaker 2: Sapling Cage. I'm recording this in Minneapolis. By the time

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Speaker 2: it comes out, I'll probably be in Nebraska or Colorado

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00:45:45,239 --> 00:45:48,080
Speaker 2: or some shit, and I'll be in the Pacific Northwest.

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Speaker 2: Near the end of October, I will be the tour

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00:45:50,400 --> 00:45:52,920
Speaker 2: days have not yet been announced for California and points

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00:45:52,920 --> 00:45:55,520
Speaker 2: east across the South, but they will be at some

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00:45:55,600 --> 00:45:59,560
Speaker 2: point and you can come hear me read folklore set

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00:45:59,600 --> 00:46:03,120
Speaker 2: in the world of the Sapling Cage and Sophie. You

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00:46:03,120 --> 00:46:08,200
Speaker 2: gutnything you want to plug uh At cool Zone Media,

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Speaker 2: That's where we are and I'll see you all on Wednesday.

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Speaker 1: Yay.

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Speaker 3: Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff is a production of

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Speaker 3: cool Zone Media.

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Speaker 1: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website

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Speaker 1: coolzonmedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,

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00:46:31,480 --> 00:46:34,319
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.