Speaker 1: Today's historian interview is with Professor Emerson Baker. He's the
Speaker 1: Interim Dean of Graduate and Professional Studies as well as
Speaker 1: a professor History over at Salem State University, Yes, that Salem.
Speaker 1: He's an award winning author with many works on the
Speaker 1: history and archaeology of early New England, including A Storm
Speaker 1: of Witchcraft, The Salem Trials and the American Experience, which
Speaker 1: was a source for this series, and the Devil of
Speaker 1: Great Island, Witchcraft and Conflict in Early New England, a
Speaker 1: great book about a stone throwing devil in early colonial
Speaker 1: New Hampshire, something I covered on episode ninety four of
Speaker 1: my other podcast Lore. He served as an advisor for
Speaker 1: PBS TVs American Experience and Colonial House, and has consulted
Speaker 1: and appeared in many documentaries on the Salem Witch Trials.
Speaker 1: He is a member of the Gallows Hill team who
Speaker 1: in two thousand sixteen confirmed the execution site for the
Speaker 1: victims of the Salem witch Trials, and he's also co
Speaker 1: authored the I Phone iPad app the Salem which Trials.
Speaker 1: I had a chance to sit down with Professor Baker
Speaker 1: this past summer and we had a fantastic conversation. So
Speaker 1: without further delay, Let's get on with the show. This
Speaker 1: is the Unobscured Interview series for season one. I'm Aaron Mankey.
Speaker 1: So I'm Emerson Baker. I'm interim dean and professor of
Speaker 1: History at Salem State University in Salem, Massachusetts. I'm going
Speaker 1: to start us off with sort of u uh like
Speaker 1: setting the stage kind of question. Sure, Um, can you
Speaker 1: give us a brief placement of the Salem Trials in
Speaker 1: the context of colonial history? You know, we're we're about
Speaker 1: halfway between English settlement and the independence that will come later. Um,
Speaker 1: how do the events in this particular era shape the
Speaker 1: mindset's attitudes, that practices that we might consider pro to Americans. Sure? Well,
Speaker 1: I mean it seems to me that Salem is is
Speaker 1: kind of a great colonial American tragedy, right, or one
Speaker 1: of several great tragedies, maybe King Phillips were Being being
Speaker 1: another one, which which in some ways I believe they're
Speaker 1: kind of closely related, and that many of the There's
Speaker 1: been many tensions emerging in New England in the seventeenth century,
Speaker 1: um the perceived decline of Puritanism, UM, declining church membership, UM,
Speaker 1: issues over governance, and the fall of the Charter of
Speaker 1: mass Chusetts Bay Colony, where people begin to to doubt
Speaker 1: that that the the Puritan experiment is going to survive, right,
Speaker 1: that it is under threat, and who could be under
Speaker 1: threat from more than anything else, of course, but but
Speaker 1: satan right, and and to me, in many ways, it
Speaker 1: is a critical turning point in American history. And I'm
Speaker 1: not just saying that because my book is in a
Speaker 1: series called Pivotal Moments in American History. I genuinely believe
Speaker 1: this that the Salem Witch Trials in many ways, um
Speaker 1: changed the course of colonial history and uh, and maybe
Speaker 1: the very nature of American society to this day. I
Speaker 1: read a quote from I don't know if he's late
Speaker 1: late nineteenth century early twenty century history and who said
Speaker 1: that the Sailor witch Trials was the rock that theocracy,
Speaker 1: like the American idea of theocracy was broken upon. Yeah, right,
Speaker 1: I I I you know, I don't think it's not like, uh,
Speaker 1: the the sort of Puritan state ended with the Salem
Speaker 1: witch Trials, um, But I I it's the beginning of
Speaker 1: the end. Right. I think Cotton mather In particularly becomes
Speaker 1: pretty much completely discredited by his attempt to defend the
Speaker 1: Puritan state um, and people begin to think, you know,
Speaker 1: maybe it isn't the best idea for the governor's top
Speaker 1: issers to be the ministers of the colony, right, And
Speaker 1: it it's a it's a gradual split. It's not like
Speaker 1: the light switch went off, right. But I think in
Speaker 1: many ways it's it's the Puritan witch trials. The Salem
Speaker 1: witch Trials are the beginning of the end of of
Speaker 1: kind of Puritan Massachusetts, and in some ways really kind
Speaker 1: of that that beginning of the end of of of
Speaker 1: the New England experiment. And and in particular I think
Speaker 1: the the the complete collapse of that ideal of John
Speaker 1: Winthrop's of the city upon a hill, right, And if
Speaker 1: you realize that Salem, of course was the first settlement
Speaker 1: of Massachusetts Bay, and that Winthrop really may have physically
Speaker 1: had Salem in mind as the city upon the hill.
Speaker 1: To have those high expectations completely dashed, there were people
Speaker 1: still living in Salem who would have heard that sermon, right,
Speaker 1: they would have been quite old. But to think within
Speaker 1: a couple of generations that that that that experiment just
Speaker 1: just lay in in shambles. And I think, to me,
Speaker 1: that's why that's why we remember Salem is because um
Speaker 1: it's it's too horrible a fall from grace for us
Speaker 1: to ever forget. And that people in Salem and other
Speaker 1: Americans um constantly reminds Salem and ourselves of of what
Speaker 1: can happen when you you get complacent about those dreams.
Speaker 1: For sure. Obviously witchcraft, accusals, trials, executions, all that. We're
Speaker 1: talking about the New World, Europe, England, um. And there's
Speaker 1: a lot of different sects of the Christian faith represented
Speaker 1: their Catholicism and Anglicanism specifically in Purits in New England
Speaker 1: and in Salem in what was a witch? Wow? Well,
Speaker 1: I mean it's it's it really goes back to to
Speaker 1: the Old Testament really, um, you know as to to
Speaker 1: what a witch is, um, it's someone who is in
Speaker 1: league with with Satan and draws power powers from Satan
Speaker 1: to to harm people or to to harm their possessions. Right,
Speaker 1: simply simply put um it And it can be it
Speaker 1: can be down in a variety of different ways. It
Speaker 1: doesn't have to be what we sort of think of
Speaker 1: even in Salem of sort of affliction and and spectral affliction.
Speaker 1: It can be um causing uh, storms to wreck crops.
Speaker 1: It can be causing uh two cows to dry up
Speaker 1: and no longer produce milk. Or yes, it can be
Speaker 1: direct harm to people. Right. Obviously, the Massachusetts Bay Colony
Speaker 1: was part of the greater British Empire. Um, how connected
Speaker 1: was the colony specifically Salem, as you said it was
Speaker 1: the first settlement, not Boston, but Salem was so how
Speaker 1: connected was it to the global network that made up
Speaker 1: that British Empire. So what's really interesting to me is
Speaker 1: is actually, UH, Massachusetts joins the British Empire in many
Speaker 1: ways only with the new Charter of six with the
Speaker 1: arrival of Governor Phipps in Boston in May of sixteen
Speaker 1: ninety two amid the witch trials. He's the first royal
Speaker 1: governor and Uh, I think in many ways, before his
Speaker 1: arrival and before the loss of the of the massa
Speaker 1: Chusets Bay Charter in the sixteen eighties, UM, Massachusetts, I
Speaker 1: think it considered himself in many ways a law a
Speaker 1: part um. They tended to flaunt and ignore as many
Speaker 1: of the English laws as possible. And I think part
Speaker 1: of the crisis over the Salem witch trials is UH,
Speaker 1: this process of being coming a part of the British
Speaker 1: imperial system. Now, I don't mean to say that they're
Speaker 1: completely isolated, because they're not. And I think the thing
Speaker 1: that we tend to we really uh don't realize just
Speaker 1: how well connected they were with Europe uh and in
Speaker 1: fact throughout the Atlantic world, that there's a vibrant Atlantic
Speaker 1: economy that uh it may take as little as four
Speaker 1: or five weeks for a ship to arrive from London
Speaker 1: if all goes well, and that people are reading the
Speaker 1: London newspapers and and things over here, so as they're
Speaker 1: they're pretty much in tune what's going on over here.
Speaker 1: But that doesn't mean that they're in that sense. Um.
Speaker 1: Massachusetts folks, I think, believe themselves as a part of
Speaker 1: this Puritan state that was in some ways, yes, we
Speaker 1: are Englishmen, we are all Englishmen, um, but we're really
Speaker 1: here for other per poses than those other folks. And
Speaker 1: this this sort of growing idea of empire, I think
Speaker 1: is something that troubles them in some ways. Interesting. Yeah,
Speaker 1: they seem to be driven across the Atlantic to do
Speaker 1: things their way right, and it's I didn't understand, but
Speaker 1: I'm learning that they had free reign to pretty much
Speaker 1: do it their way for a very long time, right,
Speaker 1: And in fact, actually um realized too that in some
Speaker 1: ways Massachusetts becomes its own imperial power in the mid
Speaker 1: seventeenth century UM with the problems of course in England
Speaker 1: at the time. It's the English Civil Wars are taking
Speaker 1: place throughout the sixteen thirties and into the sixteen um
Speaker 1: sixteen forties, and what that means is, uh, you have
Speaker 1: no one over in England and authority to really sort
Speaker 1: of stop the Puritans from in Massachusetts from expanding authority.
Speaker 1: They in the sixteen forties they extended their authority to
Speaker 1: New Hampshire. In the sixteen fifties they largely take over Maine.
Speaker 1: These are Anglican Royalist colonies. But in Massachusetts you have
Speaker 1: the Puritan government which is closely allied with Oliver Cromwell
Speaker 1: and the the victorious Puritan forces in England, and so
Speaker 1: they're they're given pretty much free reign to to dominate
Speaker 1: New England. And it's only after the restoration of the
Speaker 1: monarchy in sixteen sixty that the Stewards begin to say,
Speaker 1: wait a second, we have to reel you back in
Speaker 1: here a little bit here. And so it's all it's
Speaker 1: a you know what this to me is like Salem
Speaker 1: is It's all part of a much larger, more complicated story.
Speaker 1: And to me why I find it so fascinating because
Speaker 1: I think this time period in the late seventeenth century,
Speaker 1: there are so many interesting things going on, and they
Speaker 1: all in some ways, uh some of that so many
Speaker 1: of them come to a head in the form of
Speaker 1: the Salem witch trials. So many people say, well, let's
Speaker 1: talk about Salem, but they don't talk about King Philip's
Speaker 1: War or the English Civil War, um, and all of
Speaker 1: the different factors that are there are all these different
Speaker 1: wires that are tripping, that are causing this one thing
Speaker 1: that happened. Well, and it's why you call your book
Speaker 1: a storm, right, because it is a perfect storm exactly.
Speaker 1: I really try to equate it to that other great
Speaker 1: Essex County tragedy, the perfect storm right where it takes
Speaker 1: a confluence of a number of horrible things come to
Speaker 1: together to create which was, you know, um off the chart,
Speaker 1: the largest uh witchcraft prosecution in in American history of
Speaker 1: you know where you have nineteen people executed, one press
Speaker 1: to death, five more die in prison, over a hundred
Speaker 1: and sixty people accused, uh and and maybe a lot
Speaker 1: more than that. And I think you know, if you
Speaker 1: look most other cases, aside from the Hartford outbreak, which
Speaker 1: it's leon or in the order of like nine or
Speaker 1: ten kind of folks, um, most cases is only one
Speaker 1: or two three people that are accused of witchcraft. So
Speaker 1: clearly there's something we're going out. But the other hand,
Speaker 1: too is in defense of of of of of Salem. Um.
Speaker 1: I'm also fasted with the reason I wrote the book
Speaker 1: was why are we so fascinated with this? Why Salem?
Speaker 1: Because by European standards, Salem, unfortunately is a fly speck.
Speaker 1: You know, in the Great Age of witch hunts over
Speaker 1: several hundred years in Europe, we know that about a
Speaker 1: hundred thousand people were prosecuted and about half of them
Speaker 1: were executed for witchcraft. You know, in in in in Cologne, Germany,
Speaker 1: there was a tenure witchcraft outbreak from the sixt to
Speaker 1: the sixteen thirties where hundreds and hundreds of people lost
Speaker 1: their lives. And I've been I don't know if you've
Speaker 1: been a clone. It's a beautiful city, but no one
Speaker 1: calls it the witch city. So and you know why
Speaker 1: is it that that's that Salem, right is the witch city?
Speaker 1: So and again to me, I think it's alive. It
Speaker 1: has to do with this confluence of of things coming
Speaker 1: together in this supposedly utopian Puritan place and um that
Speaker 1: we're we're sort of living still living in many ways
Speaker 1: in the aftermath of that. Right, absolutely, right. Well, let's
Speaker 1: step back just a little bit more for the witchcraft
Speaker 1: starts and back to the idea of the of the
Speaker 1: British Empire and this global network. Um. Slavery was obviously
Speaker 1: part of this. Can you talk about slavery and what
Speaker 1: it was like in sixteen nineties New England? Sure? Um,
Speaker 1: And slavery is New England's dirty little secret first off, right, Um,
Speaker 1: And we know that as early as the as the
Speaker 1: sixteen thirties that we have the first sort of documented
Speaker 1: evidence of slaves coming into Massachusetts. So not longer after
Speaker 1: after the colony starts, slaves come in as well. Um.
Speaker 1: And they tend to be they're they're not a large
Speaker 1: presence in the in the colony. Um. You know, we
Speaker 1: don't have a plantation economy, um, but we do we
Speaker 1: do need people to you know, work the docks in
Speaker 1: places like you know, in the lumber mills and and
Speaker 1: working the working the crops um. They do become sort
Speaker 1: of a in some ways almost like a status symbol
Speaker 1: for um for the wealthier merchants, I think, and sometimes
Speaker 1: even for example um Cotton Mather was given a slave
Speaker 1: by Governor Phipps Uh in this case where they referred
Speaker 1: to as a Spanish Indian. So we do have we
Speaker 1: do have um um African slaves here. There's there are
Speaker 1: also Native Americans who have been enslaved, some coming from
Speaker 1: the Caribbean UM. Others who are New England Indians who
Speaker 1: have been enslaved in King Phillips War, the Peaquald War UM.
Speaker 1: So there certainly is a long tradition in in in
Speaker 1: New England, as it was in Europe. Of course, of
Speaker 1: of us of servitude, of slavery, particularly for people who
Speaker 1: are other UM. England in the seventeenth century did not
Speaker 1: have a well defined sense of of um race um.
Speaker 1: They understand other um. They understand other being for example,
Speaker 1: the Irish are other. And frankly there's a debate as
Speaker 1: to Native Americans and the Irish. The English and some
Speaker 1: way sort of similar to consider them very similar because
Speaker 1: they consider them both to be pagan and I apologize,
Speaker 1: but I mean this this was the English, particularly the
Speaker 1: purit view of Irish Catholics, right, is that these people
Speaker 1: are unchurched, the wild Irish um. You know, the Scots
Speaker 1: maybe a little bit better because we share the same king,
Speaker 1: but there's still a little different from us, um. And
Speaker 1: so there's a sort of these orders of magnitude of difference.
Speaker 1: And while you would never enslave an Englishman, um boy,
Speaker 1: people who are different from us, you know, we will
Speaker 1: will have an indentured servant in englishman will serve a
Speaker 1: term of service. But people have to be radically different
Speaker 1: to be to be enslaved. So we certainly do have
Speaker 1: a small percentage of folk here we know in Salem,
Speaker 1: particularly in larger ports Salem in Boston um owned by
Speaker 1: the leading families who are are slaves by and of
Speaker 1: course um a few of these these folks um end
Speaker 1: up being involved in the witch trials. So it must
Speaker 1: be significant then that when Samuel Parris arrives in town,
Speaker 1: well not town, the village, that he has at least
Speaker 1: two slaves that we know of inte with him. That
Speaker 1: he's he's he seems to be a little bit of
Speaker 1: a of a not a pretender, but he has tried
Speaker 1: to make a wealthy name for himself. The selling of
Speaker 1: the plantation, the buying of businesses in Boston, and then
Speaker 1: coming up north to sale him with slaves almost feels
Speaker 1: like driving into town in your you know, black five
Speaker 1: series BMW. And I don't know if well, okay, I
Speaker 1: I have maybe a little different. I think you're right.
Speaker 1: I think he's sort of his pretensions. Um, he was raised,
Speaker 1: but I was he was raised in the plantation in
Speaker 1: Barbados where his uh, he inherits a fortune from his
Speaker 1: father and seems to manage to to wipe it out.
Speaker 1: We're not sure how if it's through mismanagement or some
Speaker 1: people suggests the plantation was destroyed in tornadoes hurricanes. Um,
Speaker 1: but I can honestly I consider Samuel Pearis to be
Speaker 1: a professional failure. I think he failed that everything he
Speaker 1: did at life. Right he he Um, he goes he's
Speaker 1: the son of a sugar plant who inherits a plantation
Speaker 1: that should have guaranteed him to be wealthy forever. Right.
Speaker 1: He goes to Harvard, but after a year or two
Speaker 1: he leaves as soon as he hears he's inherited this fortune.
Speaker 1: And again you know who are the leaders of Colonia
Speaker 1: in New England, those wealthy, respected people, but the Harvard
Speaker 1: trained ministers. Right. And then he then he comes leaves
Speaker 1: the Barbados and come back, comes back to Boston and
Speaker 1: tries to be a merchant. And again the wealthy ruling
Speaker 1: elite of Massachusetts, who are the Salem witchcraft judges, They're
Speaker 1: all wealthy Boston merchants. Um, he fails at that. He
Speaker 1: can't make a living doing that. So I think in
Speaker 1: some ways, this guy who never graduated from Harvard, as
Speaker 1: far as we can tell, Um, Salem Village is his
Speaker 1: last chance of success. And you're right. He comes in
Speaker 1: with with slaves, he comes in with pretensions. Um. He
Speaker 1: he is in search for that that stable, comfortable life
Speaker 1: and that position in society, which I think is really
Speaker 1: critical to him. And I think one of the reasons
Speaker 1: Salem becomes a tragedy is because Paris realizes this is
Speaker 1: his last chance to succeed, and he's not going to
Speaker 1: go quietly. He's absolutely it's he's holding on as long
Speaker 1: as he can. And of course he lasts in the
Speaker 1: town a number of years, even after the witch trials,
Speaker 1: when most people are telling him, you know, no, go,
Speaker 1: we don't want you here. I think I think he's
Speaker 1: obviously as a fellow who's very very much understress, he
Speaker 1: clearly feels that he's been attacked by Satan, and he
Speaker 1: this is how his political enemies, I think in the
Speaker 1: village um become more than political enemies, because clearly anybody
Speaker 1: who tries to oppose me in what I'm trying to
Speaker 1: do here into establishing the Godly Kingdom in Salem Village
Speaker 1: must be in some ways influenced by by Satan, and
Speaker 1: that is again part of the part of the tragedy. Right, definitely,
Speaker 1: let's switch to law. Sure, how is Massachusetts colone E
Speaker 1: law different from English law? Yeah, okay, well we're trying
Speaker 1: to We'll try to explain this without boring too many
Speaker 1: people getting too in much detail because it's complicated. Um,
Speaker 1: Massachusetts law is based largely on English common law. But again,
Speaker 1: this whole idea of massa chuse is not being part
Speaker 1: of the British Empire. Up until Massachusetts receives its second
Speaker 1: Charter in s they are allowed to develop whatever laws
Speaker 1: they want with anyone paying too much attention. But when
Speaker 1: they get the new charter and Phipps arrives with it
Speaker 1: in May of six. It very specifically says that Massachusetts,
Speaker 1: all of massa Chusetts laws are now invalid and um
Speaker 1: they have to immediately write a new set of laws
Speaker 1: which shall shall be in alignment with really and shall
Speaker 1: not be repugnant with the laws of England, that they'll
Speaker 1: conform with English common law. And so again this is
Speaker 1: part of that confluence of this. Uh, there's only really
Speaker 1: one year in Massachusetts history where in many ways it
Speaker 1: doesn't have a full set of of legal books, it
Speaker 1: doesn't have a working system of courts, because they have
Speaker 1: to recreate a whole justice system as well too. Instead,
Speaker 1: they're kind of relying on English common law and in
Speaker 1: some degrees I think making it up as they go.
Speaker 1: And here in lies part of the tragedy. Right, So
Speaker 1: is this why when um, on that first day either
Speaker 1: the first marcher end of February, when those when those
Speaker 1: four men walk to sale in town and they stand
Speaker 1: before Hawthorne and Corwyn and they accused for the first time,
Speaker 1: they don't pay that accusational fee like that the deposit
Speaker 1: that you're supposed to make, is that sort of because
Speaker 1: we're in a no rule zone at this point. It's well,
Speaker 1: I think that's part of it. I think there is,
Speaker 1: um there are a number of legal irregularities that take
Speaker 1: place in Salem in six two, and I think and
Speaker 1: part of them, uh, for example, that it's the only
Speaker 1: time in I think in American history where it is
Speaker 1: actually legal to two sees the assets of of someone
Speaker 1: who's been accused of felony. Right. Some of it is,
Speaker 1: I think is the is the lack of an establed
Speaker 1: set of law, and things are kind of murky. I
Speaker 1: also think too, though, what part of it is is
Speaker 1: that there is such an assumption of guilt in unlike
Speaker 1: anything else, and that that makes people take shortcuts. Um. Right. Normally,
Speaker 1: you if you you would have to postpond if you
Speaker 1: were charging someone with with a felony like that um
Speaker 1: to create you know, basically what today would call a
Speaker 1: nuisance suit, right, or to essentially maybe charge persons for
Speaker 1: political purposes or a way to get back at them. Um.
Speaker 1: But that that that uh and then if if the
Speaker 1: case wasn't proven, you'd forfeit your bond. Um. That was
Speaker 1: that was would have been a substantial inducement to not
Speaker 1: accuse someone flippantly of a of a high crime, right, Um,
Speaker 1: But I honestly think too if you, um, I think
Speaker 1: the answer in some degrees comes that if if you again,
Speaker 1: if you look at this sort of building storm cloud. Um,
Speaker 1: whereby six nine two, um, the judges in Massachusetts the
Speaker 1: leaders of the colony, because these also not only the
Speaker 1: your your judges, they're also your wealthiest merchant. They're also
Speaker 1: the members of the Governor's council. They have been appointed
Speaker 1: to their offices in the charter by the king. Um.
Speaker 1: They they know that Satan is in their presence, and
Speaker 1: they've seen that by what's been going on for the
Speaker 1: past few years, this confluence of horrible things, of of
Speaker 1: the worst what we now recognize the worst weather of
Speaker 1: the Little Ice Age, a terrible war that's gone badly
Speaker 1: with the French against the French, and the Native Americans,
Speaker 1: the the the the downfall of puritanism, with that perceived
Speaker 1: downfall of puritanism. Um, I think in two they know
Speaker 1: they know the witchcraft is here, and really the judges
Speaker 1: realized that their job is to round up the witches
Speaker 1: and and take care of them. You know, I think
Speaker 1: that the judges are an interesting group because um, over
Speaker 1: half of them had attended Harvard, and Harvard is supposed
Speaker 1: to be where you go to become a minister. So
Speaker 1: as young men, they believe that their fate, that God's
Speaker 1: plan for them, was to make them Puritan ministers. Yet
Speaker 1: somehow along the way they'd straight from that path and
Speaker 1: instead found themselves to be the wealthiest, most privileged members
Speaker 1: of the call any And I'm I don't mean that
Speaker 1: with too much chest because I think it probably seriously
Speaker 1: nod at them because they were all very developed Puritans,
Speaker 1: and they wondered, I think they wondered what that failing was.
Speaker 1: Why God had changed this path to a path that admittedly,
Speaker 1: you know, it was pretty comfortably most of us would enjoy, right,
Speaker 1: But why? And I think in sixt ninety two they
Speaker 1: found their answer, uh, and that was that in SEO,
Speaker 1: the ministers could not save the colony, but the judges could,
Speaker 1: and this was God's ordained plan, was to put them
Speaker 1: in a position where they could save the colony. And
Speaker 1: I think it goes back if you look at those
Speaker 1: the next day after those first charges, when they're when
Speaker 1: they're when they're bringing uh, the three the three accused
Speaker 1: Titeba and and Sarah Osborne and and Goody good to account.
Speaker 1: The first questions they ask by these guys who have
Speaker 1: been most of them had been judges in court cases
Speaker 1: for many years where in English justice it's a pretty
Speaker 1: fair system was and still is now. Right. The first
Speaker 1: question these judges, experienced judges face is how long have
Speaker 1: you been in league with Satan? Why do you hurt
Speaker 1: these children? Um? And and they might as well ask
Speaker 1: and when did you stop beating your husband? Right? Um,
Speaker 1: there's a presumption of guilt there. And if you realize
Speaker 1: that many of these judges on the witchcraft panel had
Speaker 1: actually been involved in witchcraft cases before, um that had
Speaker 1: not convicted people. Um. As recently as four years earlier
Speaker 1: in sight, some of these fellows had been involved in
Speaker 1: a witchcraft case in Boston where when the woman pled
Speaker 1: guilty of witchcraft, the judges would not accept the verdict
Speaker 1: until a panel of doctors and physicians had interviewed her
Speaker 1: to make sure that she was of sane mind. So
Speaker 1: you had that kind of rejection of the notion of
Speaker 1: people being guilty of witchcraft in sixteen nine two. They
Speaker 1: don't have that compunction at all. They're trying to force
Speaker 1: testimony out and uh and and conviction out because essentially
Speaker 1: they realized, look at we know Satan's here. Our job
Speaker 1: is to find out who the witches are and to
Speaker 1: deal with them. Right. One of those men is John Hawthorne. Yes,
Speaker 1: but we in writing the first episode, I wanted to
Speaker 1: start with William Hawthorne, his father. And this is a man,
Speaker 1: William Hawthorne, who contributed to the forming of a lot
Speaker 1: of those Massachusetts Bay laws. Right. Yeah, he was and
Speaker 1: at the time was living in Salem Village. Think about that. Oh,
Speaker 1: he didn't live in the town. He came into that.
Speaker 1: But I'm saying originally his family lived out on Hawthorne Hill.
Speaker 1: That's where John Hay Hawthorne or Haythorne would have been born. Actually,
Speaker 1: And it's only what like in the sixties sixties or
Speaker 1: so when they do move in, because what happens is
Speaker 1: Salem becomes this the mercantile center, and were at the
Speaker 1: beginning of that division of Salem Town in Salem Village
Speaker 1: that then many ways, boy or and this bomb made
Speaker 1: made kind of famous, right um. And and William and
Speaker 1: his son John going to business together at a young age.
Speaker 1: For John you have William Hawthorne as sort of this
Speaker 1: local respected figure and the laws go away. You're in
Speaker 1: this this window of time where it's it's sort of
Speaker 1: let's just protect the Puritan ideal here. And John is
Speaker 1: a judge, so I get that he feels this desire
Speaker 1: to protect the Puritan mission that there are. But do
Speaker 1: you feel like from the other side that the community
Speaker 1: looks to him in these moments and says, you're John
Speaker 1: Hawthorne can help us through this. I think that's equally
Speaker 1: true of of the other judges as well, because they
Speaker 1: are the interesting group, right. I mean, if you, um,
Speaker 1: if you look at the nine, um, most of them
Speaker 1: again are very experienced and long standing, most of the
Speaker 1: members of the second generation. UM you in that you
Speaker 1: also have UM Bartholo mc gudney. Again, he's the colonel,
Speaker 1: he's the second generation merchant. He's a physician. He's the
Speaker 1: colonel in charge and command of the Essex County Militia. UM.
Speaker 1: You know you you you have UM Jonathan Corwin, who
Speaker 1: again UM Haythorns and Corwin's for for two generations. The
Speaker 1: fathers had been you know, served in the legislature. Together
Speaker 1: they had helped make Salem what it was as this
Speaker 1: as this this bustling, shiny seaport, and and they had
Speaker 1: been the family traditions of militia officers. By the way,
Speaker 1: William Haythorn owned through the Peaquot War, actually owned own
Speaker 1: Native American slaves. But just so you know, so there's
Speaker 1: a history there because all these people who are military
Speaker 1: leaders at the time and government leaders during the time
Speaker 1: of the Peaquot War were given We're given Peaquats as slaves.
Speaker 1: So you mentioned slaves earlier. I just well, I think
Speaker 1: that falls into the that falls into the idea of
Speaker 1: the other as well that you mentioned before. I mean, um,
Speaker 1: Haythorn was was known to abuse and persecute Quakers, anybody
Speaker 1: who wasn't Puritan. Yeah, and you see that that that
Speaker 1: long history of Salem, of this that tortured quite literally
Speaker 1: tortured relationship with Quakers. Because again, if you're if you're
Speaker 1: not one of us, if you're not a Puritan, then
Speaker 1: then you're against us. And one of the point is
Speaker 1: what that means is is that you are are are
Speaker 1: stopping really the the creation of this godly community of
Speaker 1: the city upon the hill, right, and that the goal
Speaker 1: of course this, I mean, it sounds wonderful. The parance
Speaker 1: want to come to create this religious experiment. And if
Speaker 1: you read the Salem Charter, the original Salem Charter of six,
Speaker 1: it's only a couple of sentences long and basically says
Speaker 1: we want to come here and walk hand in hand
Speaker 1: with each other and with God and fellowship and and
Speaker 1: this is supposed to be their whole legal code. Right. Um.
Speaker 1: After Roger Williams is banished from Salem as minister because
Speaker 1: where he was the minister here. Everyone seems to think
Speaker 1: he was in Boston, but he was here, and and
Speaker 1: all the troubles with the government here. After that they
Speaker 1: rewrite the Salem Covenant, and they go on for pages
Speaker 1: about thou shalt not and thou shalt right. Um. I
Speaker 1: think um, they were very much concerned of trying to
Speaker 1: maintain that orthodoxy right, and people good Puritan leaders like
Speaker 1: Haythorn and Corwin and Getney and and and and the
Speaker 1: Stounton of course as the leader of the court, Uh
Speaker 1: and and and Samuel Sewul, all of them are this
Speaker 1: is their goal is to be um, the leaders of
Speaker 1: creating this Puritan state. And in fact is Uh two
Speaker 1: years before the witch trials in many of these men,
Speaker 1: as members of the Governor's Council had passed emotion to
Speaker 1: to create UH had a day of fasting and and
Speaker 1: and public reformation and a call for public reformation UM,
Speaker 1: which basically means UH. They're very specifically say that you
Speaker 1: know there's going to be in short hand, there's gonna
Speaker 1: be less less less singing and dancing and drinking and
Speaker 1: more back in the meeting house. And kids will be
Speaker 1: in schools and they'll be reading the Bible, because that's
Speaker 1: why we created schools. UM. And it's again you can
Speaker 1: imagine talking about division of shure to state. Imagine how
Speaker 1: that would go over in Massachusetts of the legislature tried
Speaker 1: to do that today. But these people were all afraid
Speaker 1: that that that that that order that they've been seeking,
Speaker 1: that Puritan state that they've been trying to create, was
Speaker 1: was was was just in danger of collapse, and that
Speaker 1: they had to do something. UM. And they actually wrote
Speaker 1: this order that was proclaimed and read from every pulpit
Speaker 1: in the colony UM in sixteen ninety. Context is key, right,
Speaker 1: So you can't answer a question in isolation, and you
Speaker 1: have to reference this well, I mean Honestly, I'm not
Speaker 1: trying to put plugs in for my book, but that's
Speaker 1: what the reason one of the I wrote the book
Speaker 1: for a couple of reasons, and one was because everything
Speaker 1: I'm having taught in Salem for over twenty years, the
Speaker 1: things I was reading about in the books and what
Speaker 1: I was actually learning didn't They didn't fit one thing.
Speaker 1: But also too, I realized that so many you can't
Speaker 1: look at Salem as an isolated incident into you have
Speaker 1: to look at in the broader history of Salem's history,
Speaker 1: from the Native American village to the fishing village of
Speaker 1: nam Ki, to its growth as a as a as
Speaker 1: a great port, and it's subsequent history to really understand
Speaker 1: and put the witch trials in context, and to just
Speaker 1: look at Salem village as boy Nisse and Bomb do. Brilliant, brilliant,
Speaker 1: maybe still the best book on the Salem witch Trials,
Speaker 1: But you can't understand what happened, is Sixto. If you're
Speaker 1: only looking at factional as a in Salem village, um,
Speaker 1: you you you can't. You can't do it. If you're
Speaker 1: only looking at the issues of which is as women
Speaker 1: as witches in gender, um you have to pull back
Speaker 1: right and get that that view because all these pieces
Speaker 1: they all connect, don't they well? And there are pieces
Speaker 1: that you wouldn't expect to connect. I can expect well.
Speaker 1: I mean, I think the English Civil War in the
Speaker 1: decades leading up to the witch trials in Salem, that's
Speaker 1: an obvious connection to look at, because it's it's English,
Speaker 1: it's it's it's adjacent. But but I think what people
Speaker 1: forget about our things like King Philip's War or King
Speaker 1: William's War, and what was going on on the frontiers
Speaker 1: of New England with the Native Americans with the settlers. Um,
Speaker 1: How did things like Kings will King Philip's War um
Speaker 1: set the stage for what was happening in Salem. You
Speaker 1: have to realize that, Um, the Native Americans were considered
Speaker 1: again by the Puritans as being kind of um heathen
Speaker 1: pardon me, pagan um. And of course there was an
Speaker 1: effort underway by some Puritans like John Elliott to create
Speaker 1: sort of English Native American Puritans, right, the praying Indians
Speaker 1: um and their their towns established that. But for the
Speaker 1: most part, the Purans interesting because they try to convert
Speaker 1: people by example. You know, they're not active proselytizers like
Speaker 1: the Jesuit missions are up in up in Canada. Um.
Speaker 1: So it's never gonna work all that great. Um. But
Speaker 1: the bigger problem is um, Native Americans from the beginning
Speaker 1: are considered because they're not Christian. Um, they are considered
Speaker 1: in some ways to be in league with Satan from
Speaker 1: the get go. And and for the most part, where
Speaker 1: do they live. They live out in what the Puritans
Speaker 1: considered to be the howling wilderness, the frontier um, what
Speaker 1: what you could consider a dark corner of Puritan piety.
Speaker 1: You know, woods are filled filled with with imps and
Speaker 1: evil spirits and demons, and so it's very easy to
Speaker 1: equate um. You know, King Phillips War with and with
Speaker 1: these frontier warfare, and even more so King Williams War,
Speaker 1: which comes really, you know, just like a dozen years
Speaker 1: later and takes place mostly on the frontier of Maine
Speaker 1: in New Hampshire, in northern Essex County. These these wild
Speaker 1: areas filled by Native Americans and to the north their
Speaker 1: French Catholic non Puritan folks who are allies of the Pope,
Speaker 1: the minions of the Pope. So King Williams were in
Speaker 1: particular when it when it breaks out in in Maine
Speaker 1: and begins to be seen as this, this this unholy
Speaker 1: alliance of the Puritans, horrible enemies right the the the
Speaker 1: the non non Catholic UH Native Americans in league with
Speaker 1: the French Catholics who are the minions of the Pope.
Speaker 1: And you have these forces who are clearly agents of Satan,
Speaker 1: who are going to destroy the New England experiment. UM.
Speaker 1: So when they lose that when when they lose that war, uh,
Speaker 1: it's seen not just as a military defeat, one that
Speaker 1: creates tremendous burdens on Salem. Uh. The tax rates go
Speaker 1: through the ceiling. Um. Many refugees, people who would come
Speaker 1: from Essex County UH and migrated into Maine in the
Speaker 1: sixteen eighties are now come back to Salem with nothing
Speaker 1: but the clothes on their backs. UM. So you have
Speaker 1: this horrible political situation, economic situation. UM. And imagine this
Speaker 1: if you're in Salem village or Salem, and all of
Speaker 1: a sudden who shows up on your doorstep but your
Speaker 1: sister in law and her five hungry kids and all
Speaker 1: they have their other clothes on the back and they're
Speaker 1: barely escaped from the burning rubble of a town in
Speaker 1: Maine and Native American attack, and that oldest kid is
Speaker 1: an oath and he eats like a horse, and I
Speaker 1: got to find him a job, but he's lazy, and
Speaker 1: my taxes are going through the roof. People are terrified
Speaker 1: by what's going on. They're upset, and they don't see
Speaker 1: an end to it. There's no effort by the English
Speaker 1: to really turn the war around. So um it is.
Speaker 1: It is a very It's just it's just chaos. And
Speaker 1: people really think in many ways that that that the
Speaker 1: that there the experiment is coming to an end. Um.
Speaker 1: A few years later, Um, the Earl of bellamont In
Speaker 1: se who's governor actually after Sir William Phipps, and I
Speaker 1: think it's about um. When there's sort of a recess
Speaker 1: between King Williams war in Queen Ann's War, which won't
Speaker 1: start for a couple more years, he writes a letter
Speaker 1: home to his wife and he says, essentially, I may
Speaker 1: be home soon because if the Native Americans get their
Speaker 1: acts together, they will drive us into the ocean. And
Speaker 1: it's funny because you know we we think today of
Speaker 1: American exceptionalism and and you know from c Too Shining
Speaker 1: Sea and westward progress and manifest destiny. In the six nineties,
Speaker 1: people didn't feel that way by the by the time
Speaker 1: this war is over. At the end of this a
Speaker 1: couple of years after the Salem which trials no one
Speaker 1: is no No Europeans are living anywhere in New England UM,
Speaker 1: really north of UH, really much north of like Portsmouth,
Speaker 1: New Hampshire, UM, and any way to the westward of
Speaker 1: current interstate. The rest of it is no man Land.
Speaker 1: And they're they're clinging on for dear life. And they've
Speaker 1: people who have been living throughout much of the interior
Speaker 1: of southern New England. And there are dozens of settlements
Speaker 1: in Maine burnt, destroyed, abandoned, and are we going to
Speaker 1: be next? And this is the punishment that God is
Speaker 1: giving us for not being devout enough and not fulfilling
Speaker 1: our mission and our promise to Him. So even this
Speaker 1: military disaster against this powerful other right who in previous
Speaker 1: times you may have enslaved UH is coming back to
Speaker 1: haunt you well. And it's in some ways the news
Speaker 1: of that conflict is coming into Salem. But like you said,
Speaker 1: the people from that conflict are walking back into Salem.
Speaker 1: You know, defeated, broken, with nothing to their name. It's easy.
Speaker 1: When I was first reading about Sarah Good, for example,
Speaker 1: do you have a typical other, Right, she's the outsider,
Speaker 1: she's poor, it's but again it comes from a really wealthy,
Speaker 1: respected family. But through life circumstances maybe uh uh, you know,
Speaker 1: a husband dying young, right, she and maybe becomes a
Speaker 1: little adult distempered exactly, not the local beggar woman. But
Speaker 1: I look at the way that they treat her, and
Speaker 1: I think to myself, how how un Christian or uncharitable
Speaker 1: they were toward her. But when you put it in
Speaker 1: the perspective of there are other people coming into town
Speaker 1: with nothing left because they're coming from the frontier, because
Speaker 1: they're running from these attacks, Um, it's just a constant
Speaker 1: hammering away at the people of sale and village exactly.
Speaker 1: And but I think I will say, in this and
Speaker 1: Sarah Good's case, I think the I think in part
Speaker 1: of maybe because I think there's a chance she was
Speaker 1: a Quaker. She certainly may have a Quaker sympathies. Um.
Speaker 1: Her famous last words, God will give you blood to drink,
Speaker 1: Minister Noise says to her on the right on when
Speaker 1: when she's facing the noose, she said, you know, basically, come, come, women,
Speaker 1: you know you're gonna die, but you might as well
Speaker 1: clear your conscience. Um. And and she said, you know,
Speaker 1: I I'm no more which than you are. And if
Speaker 1: you kill me, God will give you blood to drink.
Speaker 1: So take that. And of course, decades later, supposedly Noise
Speaker 1: actually died of like a brain aneurysm, where supposedly his
Speaker 1: mouth might have filled with blood. We don't know. But
Speaker 1: the point is, um on the one hand, and you know,
Speaker 1: that's actually a quote out of Revelation UM, where one
Speaker 1: of the one of the sort of plagues that will
Speaker 1: come to the earth is is the waters will turn
Speaker 1: to blood and you'll have to drink it. And um.
Speaker 1: So on the one hand, one initially saw that, I thought, wow,
Speaker 1: Sarah good, that's pretty good. She's showing she was showing Noise.
Speaker 1: You know what, I'm a perfectly good purit and here
Speaker 1: I am facing death and I'm going to quote scripture
Speaker 1: to you. But it's more complicated than that, because, as
Speaker 1: it turns out, back in this early sixteen sixties, when
Speaker 1: the Massachusetts government is executing Quakers in Boston for simply
Speaker 1: trying to proselytize the faith. Um uh. An englishman writes
Speaker 1: a book about your behaviors and tells the magistrates that
Speaker 1: they have to stop with your doing or God will
Speaker 1: give them blood to drink. So Sarah Good in that
Speaker 1: famous quote was actually not just wasn't a biblical quote.
Speaker 1: She was actually quoting from a Quaker complaint against the
Speaker 1: magistrates of Massachusetts. So there may be a lot of
Speaker 1: reasons why Sarah I'm not even I'm not sure she
Speaker 1: was a Quaker necessarily, but she certainly lived in that
Speaker 1: part of Salem that was susceptible to where the Quakers lived. Um,
Speaker 1: so she certainly would have known about them and may
Speaker 1: have been uh might well have even a Quaker sympathies.
Speaker 1: That's amazing. Well, you know, you think about her first
Speaker 1: examination on March one. Where were they asked? They say, um,
Speaker 1: you were at you know, Reverend Paris's house and you
Speaker 1: were muttering something. Were you muttering? You know? And she says, well,
Speaker 1: it was I was reciting the commandment? You know, Well,
Speaker 1: what which one? Well, I think it was the Psalms.
Speaker 1: Well recite it for us, you know. And she has
Speaker 1: trouble with this. It's it's a battle, and it paints
Speaker 1: this picture that she's this ungodly, um disinterested, non Puritan
Speaker 1: woman in a Puritan village, but at the end of
Speaker 1: the day, at the end of her life, right there
Speaker 1: at the news. And and again I think it makes
Speaker 1: too is the fact that I mean they're there their
Speaker 1: reference to her being maybe being adult. And I think
Speaker 1: you know, today she may have been a person who
Speaker 1: you know, had said some some mental challenges, right, Uh.
Speaker 1: And particularly God knows if you're into those certain circumstances,
Speaker 1: because she's from a prosperous, wealthy family. And um, I'm
Speaker 1: sure it was a very it was very tough life
Speaker 1: that she found herself in too, not even own a
Speaker 1: own a home. Uh. And to be sort of living
Speaker 1: in people's barns, and and and having to go uh,
Speaker 1: to be from a proud family, to have to go
Speaker 1: to the minister and basically begging for for for a
Speaker 1: scrap of food for for you and your your children. Um,
Speaker 1: that's that takes a lot out of you, right and
Speaker 1: and and and the thing is too, is I mean,
Speaker 1: this wasn't that the Puritans were an uncharitable people, because
Speaker 1: they because they were, but I think they also this
Speaker 1: is the time, you know, um, when there begins to
Speaker 1: be more sort of individual responsibility, right, and that's one
Speaker 1: of the major thrust of the seventies century, the kind
Speaker 1: of the rise of capitalism. And uh, I think that's
Speaker 1: one of the general tensions that witchcraft is a part of.
Speaker 1: Many scholars are pointed to write that those sorts of
Speaker 1: tensions with with an event as big as the Sailorwich stress,
Speaker 1: is a lot of different issues that you can become
Speaker 1: focused on or you know, build your career on. You
Speaker 1: just seem to know a lot about Governor Phipps. Yes, yeah,
Speaker 1: I co authored the biography of William Phips, so I
Speaker 1: probably no more minut show than just about anybody except
Speaker 1: maybe my co author at the wonderful John Reid. Somebody
Speaker 1: has to though, right, yes, exactly, can you give us
Speaker 1: a short account of the Phipps led raid in six
Speaker 1: nine and then how that set the station? So um,
Speaker 1: Phipps leads these two failed military expeditions in six Um
Speaker 1: he comes back, uh, comes back to the colony, the
Speaker 1: first American to be united by the King of England.
Speaker 1: No political experience whatsoever. He's a sort of a ship's captain,
Speaker 1: sort of uh, you know, Tar Paul and kind of
Speaker 1: fellow sea dog. But somehow he gets the authority to
Speaker 1: lead to expeditions against to try to turn the tables
Speaker 1: in this war. The first one against a Katie works
Speaker 1: reasonably well, so much so unfortunately that they say that
Speaker 1: works so well. Rather than like four or five ships,
Speaker 1: Let's give you a couple of thousand men and like
Speaker 1: thirty ships, and you're gonna go invade Canada and make it,
Speaker 1: make it an English colony. Um, sounds good in theory. Uh.
Speaker 1: And this takes place, and they lead in the fall
Speaker 1: of s but for for numerous reasons, a bad weather,
Speaker 1: poor planning, um. Frankly, the fortifications of Quebec. It fails disastrously,
Speaker 1: and um they lose hundreds of men. They bring back
Speaker 1: smallpox with them into the harbor. When they arrive, they
Speaker 1: talk about the dead being stacked frozen dead being stacked
Speaker 1: on the ships like cordwood, and they lose hundreds of people.
Speaker 1: It almost cost Phips his subsequent military career, but again
Speaker 1: it was it was. It was as major sort of
Speaker 1: blow against the colony. It created financial disaster. It's the
Speaker 1: first time that any colony ever had to create paper money.
Speaker 1: It pretty much destroyed the Massachusetts economy. And and and
Speaker 1: it was one of those preconditions again that created uh
Speaker 1: that sort of that that that that called political economic
Speaker 1: military disaster that only got worse his time progressed. So
Speaker 1: when he arrives in mass Chewst's as the governor, what
Speaker 1: would his priorities have been. I mean it sounds I
Speaker 1: get a lot of clean up to do. Well, you know,
Speaker 1: my my personal my that's that's true. I think my
Speaker 1: personal feeling is as I said about William Pipps is
Speaker 1: is this is a guy that has he's he's has
Speaker 1: no political experience whatsoever. He's pretty good at commanding a ship.
Speaker 1: But he's one of these like fortune seekers. And frankly
Speaker 1: one if one of his big personal goals would have
Speaker 1: been to make as much money off the office as possible. Um.
Speaker 1: And he's he's all about personal uh personal profit and
Speaker 1: uh an advancement and uh if you can cut a
Speaker 1: side deal, he can. When he goes to make a
Speaker 1: treaty with the Native Americans up at Pemaquid the end
Speaker 1: of the war, UM, he also manages to get the
Speaker 1: leading stage him of the of the of Maine Madakawando
Speaker 1: to deed him several thousand acres of mainland as a
Speaker 1: part of the treaty. So so when you asked me
Speaker 1: what his priorities were, I'm sorry if I'm a little
Speaker 1: um skeptical. I mean, clearly, here's a guy who's dropped
Speaker 1: into a situation. When he arrives, the jails are already
Speaker 1: overflowing with with people accused of witchcraft. Now back up
Speaker 1: a bit and realize that the afflictions in Salem really
Speaker 1: start to take off back in January about the time
Speaker 1: that Salem village here's on the same day of two
Speaker 1: horrible things, and one is the destruction of York, Maine
Speaker 1: in array and the death of the Puritan minister at
Speaker 1: the hands of the Native Americans. And about the same
Speaker 1: time they learned that Governor Phipps is going to be
Speaker 1: arriving with a new charter. This this guy who had
Speaker 1: been a military disaster, who only had recently become a
Speaker 1: Puritan enjoined the Mathers Church. So people are a little
Speaker 1: questioning about, you know. So you know, let's see people
Speaker 1: who are rags to richest kind of guy, high risk,
Speaker 1: high reward um who have only had a late conversion
Speaker 1: to their political cause. Um, who were known for their
Speaker 1: course vulgar language. Um. You know, sometimes those people don't
Speaker 1: do really good as governors, as leaders of our nation,
Speaker 1: of our state. Um. And and Phips I think was
Speaker 1: fairly clearly almost immediately out of his depth, right he Um,
Speaker 1: he didn't have that experience. He had never served as
Speaker 1: a member of the General Court. He was a boy
Speaker 1: from Maine, um, which was a kind of an ultimate
Speaker 1: kind of outsider, and people kind of questioned who he
Speaker 1: was and what he was doing here. And Um, I
Speaker 1: think he also too had UM. I think one of
Speaker 1: the things he wanted. One of his key goals here
Speaker 1: was to make sure that he was wife for an
Speaker 1: accused of witchcraft, because in many ways they fit uh
Speaker 1: to a t what people thought, which is might be
Speaker 1: he had made his fortune as a treasure hunter. Treasures
Speaker 1: are traditionally guarded by demons that you have to charm
Speaker 1: and you also uh and you also also too to
Speaker 1: find a treasure, you you have to use divination to
Speaker 1: try to locate it, which again, you know, things like
Speaker 1: fortune telling. He'd had his fortune told, so that's kind
Speaker 1: of questionable. Meanwhile, his wife is barren. They have no children,
Speaker 1: which is are considered to be barren childless right um
Speaker 1: she had had a relative up in Maine who had
Speaker 1: been accused of witchcraft several decades earlier, and instead of
Speaker 1: having natural children in sixteen nine two. Their household consists
Speaker 1: of Sir William Phipps, Lady Mary Phipps, and their servants
Speaker 1: consisting of yes, a slave probably from from the Caribbean
Speaker 1: um and also a Native American girl who fhips from Maine,
Speaker 1: who Phips had taken captive on his raid in a
Speaker 1: Kadian sixteen ninety who was serving really kind of as
Speaker 1: a prisoner of war slash servant, who was the daughter
Speaker 1: of that by the way, that Indian statium she bought
Speaker 1: he bought the land from um and also a French nobleman.
Speaker 1: Was was the granddaughter of a French nobleman. So she
Speaker 1: would have been half Native American, half French, all Catholic.
Speaker 1: And so you have these these sort of people as
Speaker 1: as and think of this as your phone children in
Speaker 1: this ungodly household. So to me, you know, it's it's
Speaker 1: it's me. It's it's really remarkable that that Lady Mary
Speaker 1: Phipps isn't accused of witchcraft until the fall, until October
Speaker 1: six and as soon as that happens, Sir William brings
Speaker 1: it to an end. And I think that's one of
Speaker 1: his key factors throughout the trials is I think he
Speaker 1: wanted to be very hard on you know, it's like,
Speaker 1: you don't have to be soft on crime if you're
Speaker 1: a politician. Right in sixteen in Nies, you don't want
Speaker 1: to be soft on witches as a politician. It's bad
Speaker 1: for politics. But it's particularly bad because if Phipps had
Speaker 1: done the right, thoughtful thing, as many of the ministers,
Speaker 1: including Cotton Mother, originally arguing for, you know, be careful
Speaker 1: with this spectral evidence and be careful who you appointed judge,
Speaker 1: Phipps wasn't in a political position to do that. If
Speaker 1: he wasn't fully behind the witch trials, I think he
Speaker 1: knew that sooner or later people were gonna start saying, so,
Speaker 1: Sir William, why are you being so soft on witches?
Speaker 1: Could it have anything to do with though maybe some
Speaker 1: members of your family, how out the fact that both
Speaker 1: you and your wife's family are we're in the parish
Speaker 1: parishioners are Reverend George Burrows up in Falmouth Maine. You know,
Speaker 1: George Burrows, the ringleader the the of of of of
Speaker 1: Satan on earth here in Massachusetts. I mean that it's
Speaker 1: just goes on and on the potential connections, and I
Speaker 1: think I think Phipps had to be um Phipps could
Speaker 1: not come out against the witch trials until it became
Speaker 1: clear when his wife and the wife of Increased Mather
Speaker 1: were accused that uh, that it was clearly not all
Speaker 1: these people could be witches? Right? How could we have
Speaker 1: the best people of the colony. How could we have
Speaker 1: all of these ministers, How could we all have all
Speaker 1: the all the relatives of ministers, How could we have
Speaker 1: members of the General Court. These people all can't be whiches?
Speaker 1: Can they? Are we all witches? Well? You know that's
Speaker 1: that's one of the things that that is so intriguing
Speaker 1: about the Salem case specifically, is that you know, you
Speaker 1: go to England and Europe and accused, which is fit
Speaker 1: a very particular profile. Most of the time. You know,
Speaker 1: they are again the outsiders that we talked about some ways,
Speaker 1: the irreligious or the poor, the outspoken. There typically women,
Speaker 1: you know, they're the they're they're not they're the non
Speaker 1: ruling class um, and of them seems to start that
Speaker 1: way exactly, yes, you know you yeah, Sarah Good, Sarah Osburne,
Speaker 1: and Tituba fit the bill right right, But that that
Speaker 1: lens begins to whiten rather quickly. Why does it whiten?
Speaker 1: And som yeah, I mean it's typical, right, Titeba as
Speaker 1: the as the slave, and Sarah Osborne kind of as
Speaker 1: the the woman of ill fame, perhaps because she married
Speaker 1: her in denshured servant, and Sarah Good that adult, distempered,
Speaker 1: poor woman. Traditionally, witchcraft is a working class crime, right yes,
Speaker 1: on the other side of the tracks, and it involves
Speaker 1: things like cursing and begging and right and right. So
Speaker 1: what happens in Salem is again to me, it's the storm.
Speaker 1: It's all these forces that make people realize, especially when Titeba.
Speaker 1: Here's the thing, the same thing about Saling. There are
Speaker 1: there are times throughout the spring and summer could have
Speaker 1: come to an end, right right, and one of them
Speaker 1: was even when Titeba confesses it could have come to
Speaker 1: an end. But when she says, I saw nine names
Speaker 1: in Satan's book that he wanted where he wanted me
Speaker 1: to sign, that's telling you that there's there's more witches
Speaker 1: out there, and and and it expands, right. And I
Speaker 1: think what happens is, again, initially most of those early
Speaker 1: people are your typical types, right, but it does start
Speaker 1: to escalate. And I think that's evidence of the state
Speaker 1: of Massachusetts at the time. Um. I think it's evidence
Speaker 1: also to people being really scared and really angry, right witchcraft.
Speaker 1: Interesting thing about witchcraft. Historically, we know from the work
Speaker 1: of Wolfgang Barranger that two of the major factors as
Speaker 1: to when witchcraft accusations take place anywhere is when there's
Speaker 1: horrifically bad weather, um, catastrophically bad weather destroying crops. Right.
Speaker 1: And in the pre industrial agrarian society, you don't have crops,
Speaker 1: you don't eat, people die, um, and you're looking for
Speaker 1: someone to hold responsible. Right, So what do you do.
Speaker 1: You look to your government to help you out, to
Speaker 1: provide assurances to take care of the problem. Well, if
Speaker 1: you have really horribly bad weather, the worst weather the
Speaker 1: little ice age in sixteen nineties, right, and combine that
Speaker 1: with with weak central government, Uh, this this guy as
Speaker 1: governor who has never been in politics before. Um, that's
Speaker 1: when you have witchcraft outbreaks, and so I think people
Speaker 1: began to be they didn't know who to turn to.
Speaker 1: They were they were concerned that had an interim government
Speaker 1: for several years. Now they have Governor Phipps. We're losing
Speaker 1: the war. Who even the judges who are also the
Speaker 1: leading militiamen of the colony. One of the witchcraft judges,
Speaker 1: Wait Winthrop, is the commander in chief of the Massachusetts
Speaker 1: Army that's leading the war. Judge Bartholomey Agadney is the
Speaker 1: colonel of the Essex County Regiment. Um. You know, Judge
Speaker 1: Saltonstall is another colonel in the Essex Regiment. Most of
Speaker 1: these guys are captains or majors, are higher in the militia,
Speaker 1: and so um, it's it's it looks like there's a
Speaker 1: complete inability for the government to do this, which I
Speaker 1: think in some ways why is why people begin accusing
Speaker 1: their ministers, including their minister's wives, including the wives of
Speaker 1: Governor um saying like, you know, you folks, maybe the
Speaker 1: problem here, right, and so what you have is again
Speaker 1: maybe it's that wealthy merchant Philip English, who's an outside right,
Speaker 1: He's from the Channel Islands. His first language is French.
Speaker 1: He comes over here as Philip langlais not Philip English. Right.
Speaker 1: So again it's those people who have let us down,
Speaker 1: the leaders of our community. And increasingly, unlike very very
Speaker 1: few outbreaks everywhere of anywhere of witchcraft, it goes, it
Speaker 1: climbs that social ladder because people are seeking answers and
Speaker 1: they're not They're not getting them powerful stuff. Huh it
Speaker 1: really is. Yeah? Well so, um in one of the
Speaker 1: ways that it spreads is um, at least two covenant
Speaker 1: members of the church in Salem Village become accused. Um.
Speaker 1: Was there something about those people, in particular Rebecca Rebecca Nurse. Um?
Speaker 1: I think as again as another her case is another
Speaker 1: key turning point. Right, and why would this wonder this,
Speaker 1: this elderly sainted grandmother who's a member of the Salem
Speaker 1: Town Church up here in Saint why would she be
Speaker 1: accused of witchcraft? Well again, notice she's a member of
Speaker 1: the Salem Town Church, not the Salem Village Church. Right.
Speaker 1: And Um, in many ways, particularly Ben Rey has has
Speaker 1: looked at this very carefully and talks about the fact
Speaker 1: that what you see in six nine two is members
Speaker 1: of the Salem Village that's the church, members of Salem
Speaker 1: Village sort of um attacking outward against anyone who's not
Speaker 1: one of their own. And if you think about it,
Speaker 1: one of the first people they might attack would be UM,
Speaker 1: a woman um like Rebecca Nurse who attends Salem Village
Speaker 1: But as a member of Salem Town Church, aren't we
Speaker 1: good enough for you? Why not? Could it be the
Speaker 1: fact that you and your husband a few years ago
Speaker 1: took in quite a Quaker orphan Um when when? When?
Speaker 1: When his parents died and they were neighbors and friends
Speaker 1: of the Nurses. Um, Well, you know, we know your charitable,
Speaker 1: good puritan, godly folk. But but why why? Why had
Speaker 1: a Quaker child? Why not join Salem Village Church? Why
Speaker 1: does your husband Francis Nurse? Why is he one of
Speaker 1: the leads of the faction that is trying to get
Speaker 1: Samuel Paris thrown out as minister in Salem Village. So
Speaker 1: there with the Becca Nurse there there even though she's
Speaker 1: a god fearing Puritan, there there are there there are
Speaker 1: some questions about her orthodoxies and and and Martha Corey
Speaker 1: is another example, interesting example, right, she's a member of
Speaker 1: the Salem Village Church. Why would you go after one
Speaker 1: of your own. Well, let's look at Mrs Corey a
Speaker 1: bit um. She's like the trophy wife of Giles Corey.
Speaker 1: She's she's maybe ten years younger than them, but you know,
Speaker 1: she's she's uh, she she's like the the younger wife
Speaker 1: who's all interested in joining the church and um at
Speaker 1: the same time too. You know, her husband is not
Speaker 1: the nicest guy. I mean, he had been accused of
Speaker 1: setting for arson on his on the on the house
Speaker 1: of his neighbor John Proctor. Uh and uh. And he
Speaker 1: had also been convicted really of manslaughter back in the
Speaker 1: sixteen seventies, of beating his simple minded teenage servant um
Speaker 1: to within an inch of his life. And then the fellow,
Speaker 1: poor fellow dies several days later, and they say, well,
Speaker 1: it isn't exactly murder, but you know, okay, pay a fine,
Speaker 1: pay a fine, isn't it Isn't it interesting that people
Speaker 1: remembered this in sixteen two? Is a matter of fact,
Speaker 1: no lesser a man than um. Thomas Putnam wrote a
Speaker 1: letter to Judge Sewell the night before childs Corey is
Speaker 1: pressed to death, and he says, so, just in case
Speaker 1: you've forgotten, here's what Corey did back in the sixteen seventies,
Speaker 1: So you shouldn't feel too guilty if you're really trying
Speaker 1: to press an answer out of him. So but even
Speaker 1: worse about that too. To me, it all comes back
Speaker 1: to religion ultimately. You know, here's the thing. I think
Speaker 1: so many of us who studied the witch trials, myself included,
Speaker 1: are really kind of like social historians are cultural historians,
Speaker 1: and we see witchcraft as a social cultural phenomena, neighborly conflict.
Speaker 1: You know, my my previous book, The Devil a Great Islands,
Speaker 1: Witchcraft and conflict in early New England, and it's all
Speaker 1: about neighborliness or lack thereof, and property disputes and stuff
Speaker 1: like that. But you know what it's not. It's really
Speaker 1: about religion. Witchcraft is a religious crime and you have
Speaker 1: to realize that that is, that is what was behind
Speaker 1: most of it. So what did the Quarries do to
Speaker 1: upset people in Salem Village in the church? Okay, here's
Speaker 1: what they did. Clearly, Martha wants Chiles to become a
Speaker 1: church member too and be able to receive communion. Clearly,
Speaker 1: Martha wants Chiles to be able to join her as
Speaker 1: a member of the sale and village church, but his frankly,
Speaker 1: his reprobate past precludes that because particularly Salem Village has
Speaker 1: not accepted the Halfway Covenant, they still insist on full
Speaker 1: personal confession in front of the congregation if you want
Speaker 1: to be not just someone attending meeting, which everyone has
Speaker 1: to do, but a member of the church, a saint,
Speaker 1: a congregant um, because in seventeenth century church is not
Speaker 1: a building. It's it's the it's the it's those those
Speaker 1: holy true believers, right, the saints. You must stand up
Speaker 1: in front of the church membership up and recite all
Speaker 1: your sins and beg forgiveness and say that God has
Speaker 1: spoken to you and you know now that you were
Speaker 1: going to be saved, and you ask them to let
Speaker 1: you join them in fellowship. Right. This is a this
Speaker 1: is a really tough act, and it's one reason why
Speaker 1: many churches, including in Salem Town, why they were losing
Speaker 1: members and why the minister had said, now we're scrapping
Speaker 1: that you just come in and talk to me. And
Speaker 1: if I decide that you're a good person and you're
Speaker 1: you have a good record, here will make you a minister.
Speaker 1: I may make you a member of the congregation. And
Speaker 1: that's the Halfway Covenant, right, the Halfway Covenant, Well, Halfway
Speaker 1: Covenant is related to that. Halfway is another one of
Speaker 1: the loose things. The Halfway Covenant, uh is goes in.
Speaker 1: What happens is is members of the second generation forties
Speaker 1: and fifties, they lacked their religious fervor of their parents.
Speaker 1: Here's the thing, you know, in many ways, we all
Speaker 1: want to be like our parents. We want we want
Speaker 1: to to honor them, but with different people than our parents.
Speaker 1: And you know, if you came over, took your your
Speaker 1: your family across the ocean for this to worship as
Speaker 1: you see fit and it's everything all important to you.
Speaker 1: Your kids they may not quite believe that. They may
Speaker 1: want to they want to be like you, but they
Speaker 1: God hasn't spoken to them. What do you do. Well,
Speaker 1: unless God speaks to you and you want to confess that,
Speaker 1: you can't become a member of the church. So the
Speaker 1: Halfway Covenant allows the children of that second generation who
Speaker 1: have not become church members, allows their children to be
Speaker 1: baptized because you know what if they're not baptized and
Speaker 1: they die, they can't go to heaven. Right, um, they're
Speaker 1: going to go to hell, little babies in Hell. This
Speaker 1: is not good. So we'll pass the Halfway Covenant. And
Speaker 1: you know what we're also going to do is many
Speaker 1: of these churches are going to loosen up church membership.
Speaker 1: We're going to allow people we don't are going to
Speaker 1: put them through that ordeal again. Talk to the minister
Speaker 1: if you're good. Yes, Reverend Higginson and Salem nearly, Salem
Speaker 1: Town nearly left. He was willing to leave Salem if
Speaker 1: they didn't loosen up those rules and adopt the Halfway Covenant,
Speaker 1: because otherwise they were going to lose all their members,
Speaker 1: all right, not Salem Village, no, very strict. So interesting
Speaker 1: the Corries used that loophole. Giles Corey becomes a member
Speaker 1: of a Salem Town church and even though they say,
Speaker 1: basically despite his his reprobate past, he's acknowledged his past
Speaker 1: as a center and we accept him into into our fellowship,
Speaker 1: into our covenant. Right. So then imagine, here's this fellow
Speaker 1: who people know to be who he is, and he's
Speaker 1: sitting right there and and and and and um taking
Speaker 1: partaking of the Lord's Supper with the other members of
Speaker 1: the Salem Village church. Because as a member of the
Speaker 1: Salem Town Church. You know, like Rebecca nurs you can
Speaker 1: attend and you have full rights really you know, to
Speaker 1: to receive communion. And so really isn't that interesting? This
Speaker 1: this this this trophy hunting, social climbing wife who claims
Speaker 1: she's a gospel woman. And look how she managed to
Speaker 1: get her her husband, Giles Corey arsonists beater of servants.
Speaker 1: We've managed to get him into the church. Something's wrong here,
Speaker 1: so I think you know and also too, but here's
Speaker 1: the thing to me, what's wrong with Salem Village Church.
Speaker 1: When Samuel Parris arrives, we have the beginnings of the
Speaker 1: the the the first he's the first ordained minister in
Speaker 1: Salem Village, which means that he's allowed to give the sacraments,
Speaker 1: including the Lord's Supper, to baptize children and the first year.
Speaker 1: So he does a great job of using what we
Speaker 1: would call kind of like fire and brimstone servants. You know,
Speaker 1: God is coming, He's terribly angry. Time to join the church. Now,
Speaker 1: it's not too late. Repent your sins right or else.
Speaker 1: And that works for a year or so. But also too,
Speaker 1: I think people a lot of people who didn't accept this,
Speaker 1: and they look at the pure hypocrisy of this, because
Speaker 1: here's the point. Before Salem Village, the original members of
Speaker 1: the Salem Village Church that signed the the the the
Speaker 1: creation of the church with Paris in nine had previously
Speaker 1: been members of the Church Saints in other towns, other
Speaker 1: towns that had accepted the Halfway Covenant, that accepted these
Speaker 1: looser membership rules. So, UM, think about this. All of
Speaker 1: the all of these people had come in under these
Speaker 1: easier rules, by the way, as had people like Bartholemew
Speaker 1: Gutney and John Haythorn were two of the first member
Speaker 1: is to commend under Higginson's loosened rules in Salem Town.
Speaker 1: So I think about this. You have all of these
Speaker 1: people that Paris is convinced. Nope, we're not going to
Speaker 1: accept the Halfway Covenant. We're not going to water down
Speaker 1: our rules for membership. We're gonna we have to be
Speaker 1: true believers here, right. Imagine someone like Giles Corey saying, yeah,
Speaker 1: but none of you people got in that way. You
Speaker 1: just talk to the minister and got in. You're gonna
Speaker 1: make me stand up and and blurt out all my
Speaker 1: sins by Jay hypocrites right, interesting that a number of
Speaker 1: ministers and members of their family accused of witchcraft in
Speaker 1: guess what. All of them are members of congregations that
Speaker 1: have accepted the Halfway Covenant and these looser, looser membership rules. Again,
Speaker 1: it's it's not the economy stupid, it's religion stupid. Right,
Speaker 1: That's what this is. That, this is what this is
Speaker 1: all about. The sensation is always it takes something so
Speaker 1: complex like what happened in Sixto and boil it down
Speaker 1: into a modern day and say, well, it's it's like
Speaker 1: conservatives were us liberals, you know, or whatever. It is
Speaker 1: just they just say some moldy bread that that's what
Speaker 1: did it, right, exactly, that's moldy bread. But the nuances
Speaker 1: are where the the flavor is in the texture. I mean,
Speaker 1: this is well and to me, see this is the thing. Honestly,
Speaker 1: this is why historians love studying things like the Salem
Speaker 1: witch Trials and witchcraft in general, because witchcraft Salem and
Speaker 1: elsewhere is indicative of strains in society, you know, economic, political, religious,
Speaker 1: and historians are always really interested in change. And clearly
Speaker 1: there's so many different pieces to this puzzle, and it
Speaker 1: explains why there's a book written pretty much every year
Speaker 1: on it and why most of them are really really good,
Speaker 1: and they all say in some ways very different different things, right, Right,
Speaker 1: And then each one of them is sort of a
Speaker 1: reflection of the society that the writers live in. Sure,
Speaker 1: you know that's that's what happens with correct this is
Speaker 1: and you know this is the thing when this is
Speaker 1: what we call historiography, right, is the idea that the
Speaker 1: history you reflect maybe talk tells you more about your
Speaker 1: life and times than than anything else. Right. And so
Speaker 1: for ex ample, if you look at you know, Carol Carlson,
Speaker 1: The Devil in the Shape of a Woman, that couldn't
Speaker 1: have been written before the Women's Moving in America, couldn't.
Speaker 1: And a hundred years from now historians will look back
Speaker 1: and then know exactly when that book was written, just
Speaker 1: by the title. Right. And And to me, so I'm
Speaker 1: I'm clearly more of a child of Watergate. Why are
Speaker 1: they saying all those bad things about good President Nixon?
Speaker 1: I can't believe that, right, he's such a good guy
Speaker 1: who But clearly to me, I think the Salem witch
Speaker 1: Trials in many ways is symptomatic of it's are the
Speaker 1: first mass cover up in American history, the first complete
Speaker 1: failure of the government to protect the innocent. And I
Speaker 1: honestly think that libertarian strain that we have in our
Speaker 1: politics today on both the left and the right, this
Speaker 1: distrust of government in some ways, you know, you might
Speaker 1: be able to trace it back to that, because long
Speaker 1: before Watergate, people were worried about their government, and certainly
Speaker 1: in the Salem witch trials, they were very worried about
Speaker 1: what's going on. In the election immediately after the witch trials,
Speaker 1: about half the members of the legislator were turned out
Speaker 1: in a very traditional Puran society where they kept on
Speaker 1: reelecting the elders for year after year. And you know,
Speaker 1: things had changed and clearly um the government had made
Speaker 1: had made serious errors here that they weren't willing to acknowledge.
Speaker 1: And again I think, you know, we went that old joke,
Speaker 1: I'm from the government, I'm here to I'm here to
Speaker 1: help you, right. We think of that stuff as being
Speaker 1: very modern or even if it, oh well, maybe it
Speaker 1: goes back to the Crucible. Nope. The first the first
Speaker 1: book that was written sort of making fun of the
Speaker 1: sale in which Trials was published. What in the late
Speaker 1: sixteen nineties. So it's a it's a it's a it's
Speaker 1: a deep instinct that we have. But you're talking about
Speaker 1: to cover up too, and we have. Right at the
Speaker 1: end of it all, Phipps basically prohibiting the publication things
Speaker 1: that went on. Obviously he had, as he talked about
Speaker 1: before he had his household, you know, issues and his
Speaker 1: reputational issues. Did he have any particular goal in mind
Speaker 1: by stopping the publication? Sure? Absolutely, well. I mean it's
Speaker 1: pretty fascinating because he arrives in May and he's out
Speaker 1: of touch with the British government until October when he
Speaker 1: finally writes to them for the first time. And in
Speaker 1: that letter he said, you know, well we may have
Speaker 1: had a little problem with witchcraft, but not to worry.
Speaker 1: You know, no innocent lives were lost, and I've taken
Speaker 1: care of it. And by the way, if you don't
Speaker 1: believe me, here's a copy which he literally sends one
Speaker 1: of the first copies of Cotton Mather's book with that letter.
Speaker 1: See no innocent no more than the imminent. Cotton Mather
Speaker 1: says here that no innocent lives were lost. So situation normal,
Speaker 1: the government's in good stead. Here you can trust me
Speaker 1: as governor, right, um. And you know people maybe people
Speaker 1: may question things, and if that happens, you know, things
Speaker 1: might unravel a bit here. So we wouldn't want that
Speaker 1: to happen. And since we have the truth here from
Speaker 1: Cotton Mather, well you know, I've just issued this band
Speaker 1: saying that you know, we're not gonna have anything more
Speaker 1: written on it because we have the truth from Cotton Mather.
Speaker 1: So do we need to do anything else? And basically
Speaker 1: what Phipps realizes is if he doesn't put the screws
Speaker 1: down on complaint over the witch trials, um, it will
Speaker 1: it will go out of control. You know, he really
Speaker 1: sort of sees it breaking into this this just this
Speaker 1: this wildfire, and what it will do is it will
Speaker 1: bring down his government. Um and and if it does that,
Speaker 1: it really will be the end of his political life.
Speaker 1: And also and frankly others realized this will be the
Speaker 1: end of the Puritan experiment because again, going back, if
Speaker 1: you remember what happened before Phips and before the interim government,
Speaker 1: he had Governor Andrews in the Dominion of New England
Speaker 1: who was really um almost like a military dictator, right,
Speaker 1: and he was he was an Anglican with a Church
Speaker 1: of England, and Puritanism no longer was special. Massachusetts was
Speaker 1: no longer special. It was part of a super colony,
Speaker 1: the stretch from New Jersey to Maine. Um. And so
Speaker 1: they had fought hard and phips and increased. Mather had
Speaker 1: come back with this new charter and it wasn't perfect,
Speaker 1: but it was a restoration of Puritan Massachusetts. And if
Speaker 1: we blow it this time, it is over. We will
Speaker 1: just become my god, we might have Andrew's back and
Speaker 1: here as a military governor where he's picking people for juries,
Speaker 1: and he's picking people for the legislature, and we lose
Speaker 1: the rights of Englishmen. So he had to do everything
Speaker 1: he could from a personal point of view, to end
Speaker 1: the trials, to prevent his wife from being charged to
Speaker 1: to for to not be the end of his political career,
Speaker 1: to to um now him being ironically, here's this guy
Speaker 1: who only a couple of years before become a Puritan,
Speaker 1: and now incredibly he's got to charge in on his
Speaker 1: white stallion and be the great savor of the Puritan movement,
Speaker 1: a guy who many people must have been shaking their
Speaker 1: heads saying, like, why on earth did we allow this
Speaker 1: guy to become governor because he's not one of us.
Speaker 1: And my God, look at the disasters he's creating. The
Speaker 1: worst gotten worse, The weather's gotten worse. Um, there are
Speaker 1: innocent people losing their lives. Why do we still follow
Speaker 1: this guy? We're still talking about two right? Well, what
Speaker 1: else were we talking about? Of course, I shake my
Speaker 1: head as you're talking about this where you have a
Speaker 1: particular group of religious people who feel that they're losing
Speaker 1: they're losing control of the community that they think they built,
Speaker 1: and an unqualified leader swings in and suppresses the press
Speaker 1: to control the message and make sure that it all
Speaker 1: doesn't go away. It's that that's kind of what happened
Speaker 1: in and now. But you know, I mean, I don't,
Speaker 1: I don't, I don't. I don't try to make too
Speaker 1: many modern day parallels because I think you can probably
Speaker 1: read maybe more into that than than is there. But
Speaker 1: what's really clear is that that, uh to me was
Speaker 1: that also too, is that you know, the best way
Speaker 1: to ensure that this sort of infamy and and and
Speaker 1: misstep by the government, the best way to ensure that
Speaker 1: people will never forget it is to try to cover
Speaker 1: it up, right, right. I mean, that's a lesson. We
Speaker 1: did learn the water gates well. And you know, so
Speaker 1: you mentioned cotton mother's father, Increase Mather, who was working
Speaker 1: with Phipps on the new Charter and and bringing all
Speaker 1: of that back. But it seems at the end Increase
Speaker 1: sort of takes a turn away from Phipps and his son.
Speaker 1: So here's the thing. Um, yeah, Increased matter is really
Speaker 1: is the most influential minister are in the colony. And
Speaker 1: of course actually and then and his wife is the
Speaker 1: daughter of John Cotton, the great Puritan minister as well too,
Speaker 1: So it is like the super family of Puritanism. And
Speaker 1: they have Cotton and other sons and nephews and brothers
Speaker 1: and all these people who are at the sort of
Speaker 1: the center of the Puritan movement in Massachusetts. And Increases
Speaker 1: the president of Harvard College. So yeah, um, he is
Speaker 1: Mr Puritan right. Um. And then he's but he also
Speaker 1: too begins to realize in the late summer of sixwo
Speaker 1: that something's gone terribly wrong here. And um, but he
Speaker 1: has to finesse this right because on the one hand,
Speaker 1: uh Stowton and Phipps have asked his son Cotton to
Speaker 1: write this book essentially to defend the colony. And here
Speaker 1: to me, you know, I think Cotton I'm not a
Speaker 1: big Cotton Mather fan, but I think he gets a
Speaker 1: lot of bad press because he's um. He really takes
Speaker 1: a bullet for the team when he writes when he
Speaker 1: writes Wonders of the Invisible invisible world, right, which is
Speaker 1: a is a it's it's so such an obvious sham
Speaker 1: uh is. He would have been a spend doctor today, right, um.
Speaker 1: And and he described it's some long term as ap puritan.
Speaker 1: So but in the meantime here's his father having to
Speaker 1: try to so he can mothers doing duty, trying to
Speaker 1: save the colony, trying to save Puritanism. But his father realizes,
Speaker 1: we need to save lives, and how do I do
Speaker 1: that without without going and get being seen as flitting
Speaker 1: with my son, And he sort of pulls his political
Speaker 1: finesse where he also he actually you know, he writes
Speaker 1: the sort of the preface to his his son's books,
Speaker 1: or of saying, yep, good stuff, your son, keep up
Speaker 1: the good work. But then if you read his book,
Speaker 1: his it's going like better that a hundred witches should
Speaker 1: live than one innocent person die. Right, So it's clear
Speaker 1: that we need to do something about this. And I
Speaker 1: think most of us his historians have a hard time
Speaker 1: reconciling that. But I think it's easy to think of
Speaker 1: increased Mather the politician, but also increased Mather the father, right,
Speaker 1: you know, um, and that he had a very he
Speaker 1: had ad is a is a very thin kneele to
Speaker 1: sort of thread there to sort of say, yeah, I
Speaker 1: agree with your Cotton, but I think we need to
Speaker 1: put the brakes on this right. And in fact, actually
Speaker 1: Cotton Mather had previously done that in the in the
Speaker 1: earlier in the summer, you know, when you wrote the
Speaker 1: return of the Ministers when they said, when the judges
Speaker 1: are going like so the spectral evidence, what do you think?
Speaker 1: And Cotton Mather is the junior partner of the Mather firm,
Speaker 1: you know, very deferential. Oh yes, thank you for asking.
Speaker 1: And here's the reply of the ministers. And we think
Speaker 1: that you need to be really careful when you use
Speaker 1: spectral evidence, right, because you need other evidence. And clearly
Speaker 1: it's it's uh, it's it's dicey stuff. But you know what,
Speaker 1: you guys are doing a great job because you're the
Speaker 1: leaders of our colony and we respect and revere you
Speaker 1: and just keep up the good work. Again, it depends
Speaker 1: on how you want to read that, just like increasing
Speaker 1: Cotton Mathers. So they're they're very political animals and they're
Speaker 1: trying to be deferential, but they're all trying to go like,
Speaker 1: do you really know what you're doing here? And watch
Speaker 1: out right? Yeah? Yeah, So, I mean I think and
Speaker 1: I think Mather, Increased Mather does a good job of
Speaker 1: doing that. And also too, I think really he's the one.
Speaker 1: I don't think Phips splits with him. I think Phipps,
Speaker 1: I think it's increased Mather. Once he turns that clearly,
Speaker 1: Phipps says okay, and then again to yeah again. By
Speaker 1: the way, Phips comes back from trying to defend the
Speaker 1: frontier in Maine and he writes this letter, and of
Speaker 1: course in the letter he openly lies, and he says,
Speaker 1: you know, I came back and I left Stowton in
Speaker 1: charge and things just all these people accused of which
Speaker 1: is and I never you know, why I let him
Speaker 1: do this, and it's all his fault. Phipps had been
Speaker 1: in mass Chuses almost that whole time, right, he could
Speaker 1: have put a stop to it, but again it wasn't
Speaker 1: political expedient. But when he comes back and there're more
Speaker 1: people in jail and he hears an increase, Mather's wife
Speaker 1: and his wife have been accused. Okay, we're putting the
Speaker 1: brakes on this immediately, your right increase. It's coming to
Speaker 1: a halt. The court of Oyer and Terminter must fall. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you mentioned Stoughton. Um, he's one of my least favorite people.
Speaker 1: They're just when he starting there a lot you know,
Speaker 1: in the in the story, he seems to be the
Speaker 1: most absence of it all. But but he's he's the
Speaker 1: leader of these judges, right, He's William. William Stonton is
Speaker 1: a ghost character, a friend of mine. I've had people
Speaker 1: in the past try to do this, and your friends
Speaker 1: trying to do it now, to try to write a
Speaker 1: biography of Stoughton. And I'm not sure if it's possible,
Speaker 1: because I believe me, it was bad enough with Phips,
Speaker 1: who was an illiterate governor who left almost no records.
Speaker 1: But Stoughton, there's no family papers, there's no nothing. So uh,
Speaker 1: he's he. And what's amazing to me about Stoonton is
Speaker 1: again too, I think here's the problem. I really think
Speaker 1: the judges like Stoton were filled with incredible self loathing. Um.
Speaker 1: And Stoton had been a minister, right, he had been
Speaker 1: a minister in England back and he's basically kicked out
Speaker 1: after with the Restoration because he was a Puritan. And
Speaker 1: he comes back to New England and he comes and
Speaker 1: he comes back and he's he's hailed as as this
Speaker 1: wonderful leading figure of the colony. And um, he's asked
Speaker 1: by several towns, please be our minister, please, please please
Speaker 1: be our minister. And he says, no, I'm not worthy.
Speaker 1: I'm not worthy of being a minister. Um, I can't
Speaker 1: do it. And I think again, I I think, Um,
Speaker 1: I think there's these guys are have troubled souls. Uh
Speaker 1: so uh Samuel sewell as well too. You can see
Speaker 1: his struggles. He doesn't want to become a member of
Speaker 1: the church because it doesn't think he's worthy. My god,
Speaker 1: the guy was brilliant student at Harvard. He could recite
Speaker 1: the Bible backwards and forwards, read his his two volume diary,
Speaker 1: and you know he's an incredibly devout Puritan. But he
Speaker 1: thinks he's not worthy. And I think Stowton has some
Speaker 1: of that sort of concerns about his his soul and
Speaker 1: his worthiness. Um, interesting guy, he never marries. This is
Speaker 1: almost unheard of in mass Chuset in the seventeenth century. Um,
Speaker 1: does that mean he is he committing sin? Is he is?
Speaker 1: He is he fornicating with the maids and he's self
Speaker 1: loathing because of that? Or we don't. We don't know
Speaker 1: what it was, but I think uh so. Instead he
Speaker 1: is driven. He has absolutely driven to stamp out which
Speaker 1: is right. He sees that is the big sin. And
Speaker 1: you're right. He is the leader of the course. But
Speaker 1: he doesn't show up much, does he. He doesn't lead
Speaker 1: much of a paper trail at all, even as his
Speaker 1: acting governor. But it's clear that the judges are deferential
Speaker 1: to him. And when he sets the stage and and
Speaker 1: and when he you know, interrogates the jury with the
Speaker 1: Rebecca nurse and says, you didn't did you hear her
Speaker 1: answer to this? Why didn't you ask her to follow
Speaker 1: up on this? Maybe you should think about this verdict again.
Speaker 1: They're all taking their cues from Stowton, and to me,
Speaker 1: that's part of the tragedy. Two. Here's all of these judges,
Speaker 1: for the most part aside from really from from from Stoughton,
Speaker 1: and from Seoul. These guys are all related by marriage.
Speaker 1: They're all in laws of each other, They're all part
Speaker 1: of this wealthy merchant class. They all think like each other,
Speaker 1: and once Stowton takes the lead, they all fall into place.
Speaker 1: And then and the only one I really always wondered
Speaker 1: about is Samuel Seul, right, because here's this really thinking
Speaker 1: guy who's the youngest, who spends much of his his
Speaker 1: remaining years later on in life of trying to atone
Speaker 1: for the sin of the Salem witch trials and passing
Speaker 1: that that duty onto his sons after he dies. And
Speaker 1: then I the answer to that though is two again.
Speaker 1: It's family because his wife is Samuel Parris's first cousin.
Speaker 1: So imagine that so and they known each They would
Speaker 1: have known each other in Boston. One of the few
Speaker 1: people that when when Paris moves in from Barbados, that
Speaker 1: he would have known would have been the Seuel family, right,
Speaker 1: And so imagine when when when Samuel shows up as
Speaker 1: one of the witchcraft judges, and smart guy, he's probably saying,
Speaker 1: I don't know about this, right, what's going on here?
Speaker 1: But imagine when he when he meets Samuel Paris, and
Speaker 1: he's saying, you know, cousin, cousin, thank god you're here, right,
Speaker 1: I mean, we don't I'm imagining this. We don't know,
Speaker 1: but thank god you're here. Look look at my daughter,
Speaker 1: Look at look at our daughter, look at our niece.
Speaker 1: Thank god you were here. Help them find the witches
Speaker 1: into the torments. And you know, Samuel sewel this this
Speaker 1: very thoughtful, deliberative guy. I'm looking after my family. That
Speaker 1: comes first. I believe. I believe my cousin, right, I mean,
Speaker 1: it was his wife's cousin. It's cousin, it's family. I
Speaker 1: must help the Paris family. And it's only I think,
Speaker 1: too late that that Seuel realizes that they've all been
Speaker 1: just just been been taken in by by this, by
Speaker 1: this incredible storm. You know, I don't. I don't see
Speaker 1: us as being evil either. I think he was. He was.
Speaker 1: He was a genuinely troubled guy. Um who was was
Speaker 1: head demons of his own right. Um. I don't think
Speaker 1: he's trying to, you know, point the finger of accusation
Speaker 1: of certain people, even as political opponents. But I do
Speaker 1: think he's a guy who sees his political opponents as
Speaker 1: being inspired by Satan. Right well, and at the same time,
Speaker 1: this all begins in his house, correct, you know, and
Speaker 1: so that he must have felt this, this overwhelming sense
Speaker 1: of I mean, as a minister, he would have had
Speaker 1: a j as a minister. But then but then now
Speaker 1: it's my house, that duty is is now paramount. I
Speaker 1: have to correct and and it's but even too, they
Speaker 1: think about this. The devil only attacks people to afflix them,
Speaker 1: or makes or tries to get them as witches because
Speaker 1: of it was believed, because of some imperfection in their soul. Frankly,
Speaker 1: this would get to the generaho. This is why women
Speaker 1: were more susceptible, because they were considered the weaker vessel.
Speaker 1: My my, my wonderful wife and two very strong daughters
Speaker 1: would disagree, and so would I. But right, this is
Speaker 1: the time, um, and so so clearly that's you know. Um.
Speaker 1: When Paris's daughter and niece are the first to be afflicted,
Speaker 1: Paris must have been riddled with self doubt and shame.
Speaker 1: How could this happen to my my family? What? What
Speaker 1: what have I done? What have my wife and I
Speaker 1: done to to to to to do this? Clearly we
Speaker 1: must have done something wrong, right, how have we invited
Speaker 1: Satan into our household? And of course very quickly realized, well,
Speaker 1: all we didn't do it. It was it was our neighbor,
Speaker 1: Mrs Sibley, and uh, and she got Titaba and John
Speaker 1: Indian to do the counter magic and the witch's cake.
Speaker 1: And it's her fault. Right. The devil hath been raised,
Speaker 1: as Richard Trask surely showed you in that in that book. Right,
Speaker 1: it was very Sibley, It wasn't It wasn't my daughter, right,
Speaker 1: we deflect tell me about the devil in the world
Speaker 1: of well, I mean we have how many how many
Speaker 1: years do we have we have? I mean we have
Speaker 1: our own modern day views, you know, indpendent on what
Speaker 1: your religious backgrounds are as well. But but it seems
Speaker 1: that in Salem in six they had a very particular
Speaker 1: vision of the devil. Yeah. What's amazing is in the
Speaker 1: late seventeenth century there in Salem and elsewhere, the devil
Speaker 1: has this very corporeal form. I mean, you know, he he,
Speaker 1: he takes physical appearance. It can be a bird, it
Speaker 1: can be a dog, it can be the guy with
Speaker 1: the pointy tail right in the horns um and and
Speaker 1: he walks the earth. Right, He's not just he's not
Speaker 1: just in hell or um. He's here and he is
Speaker 1: he is a physical presence and that's something that is
Speaker 1: that is and also he wants you to sign his book.
Speaker 1: This thing that is very puritan, very Massachuset is a
Speaker 1: highly literate society. This is something you don't see in
Speaker 1: other places where. And also, by the way, very legally,
Speaker 1: it's very contractual. So I've got this contract here for
Speaker 1: you to sign. If you could take a look in
Speaker 1: my book here and if you could just sign in
Speaker 1: blood here, will will be we'll have a deal. Right.
Speaker 1: It's a it's a very pure and form of Satan.
Speaker 1: But he's a very real presence. And again if you
Speaker 1: think about two sort of coverting amongst the Native Americans
Speaker 1: and the French, the French Catholics on the frontier, and
Speaker 1: that's of course, um where where we have one of
Speaker 1: the early sightings of of of of Satan in the
Speaker 1: Salem Witch trials is you know, he's up in he's up.
Speaker 1: He was at Casco Bay and that's where I first
Speaker 1: met him, right, because that's where you'd expect to run
Speaker 1: into him. But again, physically meeting Satan, something that by
Speaker 1: the early eighteenth century, you know, Satan becomes this very
Speaker 1: sort of distant force like by the second by the
Speaker 1: first grade Awakening in the seventeen twenties, Satan no longer
Speaker 1: walks the earth, but in but in Salem six two,
Speaker 1: he can knock on your door. He's very absolutely he
Speaker 1: can be. He can he can be tormenting Titaba in
Speaker 1: the in the lean to of the Paris parsonage, telling
Speaker 1: her I'm gonna I'm gonna hurt you if you don't
Speaker 1: hurt the Paris kids, right, and so that it's a
Speaker 1: and again, if you think about this, this is a
Speaker 1: very real, imminent, scary, horny beast, who is who? Who
Speaker 1: is here to get you? And uh again, I think
Speaker 1: it's it's it's a you know, it's it's a very
Speaker 1: terrifying kind of kind of image as opposed to even
Speaker 1: by the eighteenth century, you know where you know, yeah, Satan, Yeah,
Speaker 1: that Satan is this force, right, but he's not He's
Speaker 1: not going to torture you and pinch you and in person. Yeah,
Speaker 1: obviously you've written a book on this, You've spoken prolifically
Speaker 1: about it and studied it for years. But if if
Speaker 1: there is one thing that you hoped people walked away
Speaker 1: with out of the plethora of things they could walk
Speaker 1: away with. Um, if if there's one thing that or
Speaker 1: maybe maybe we can stream it as if there's one
Speaker 1: thing that it means to you. So I mean, to
Speaker 1: me it is the ultimate sort of cautionary tail. Um.
Speaker 1: And and then I you know, unfortunately it's a sad
Speaker 1: story and it doesn't have a happy ending because I
Speaker 1: think in some ways, as long as we have prejudice
Speaker 1: and hatred, um, we're going to have some form of witchcraft, right,
Speaker 1: We're gonna have. We're gonna it's a question of of
Speaker 1: treating others differently and scapegoating. And you know, the way
Speaker 1: I look at it too, as you know, I think,
Speaker 1: here's the thing to me is what what bothers me?
Speaker 1: So much as so many people say how ignorant people
Speaker 1: were back then, how could they possibly believe in which
Speaker 1: is and that they were well? First off, remember in
Speaker 1: sixte two, which is where real everybody believed in them.
Speaker 1: University ministers, doctors of theology, governors, popes, which is are real.
Speaker 1: The only kind of serious question is is who are they?
Speaker 1: How do we figure out who they are and how
Speaker 1: do we stop them? Because they could be anybody could
Speaker 1: be you, It could be me, It could be it
Speaker 1: could be one of our children, could be could be
Speaker 1: a witch. They look just like us. Right. Well, but
Speaker 1: but here's the thing. These people want to destroy your society,
Speaker 1: uproot your faith, wipe out your family, kill you and
Speaker 1: everyone in your hometown and in your in your nation
Speaker 1: wherever that is. We have to stop them. Well, how
Speaker 1: the heck do we do this if we don't know
Speaker 1: who they are and what they look like. Well, we
Speaker 1: start looking at people are a little bit different. How
Speaker 1: about that person that may worship God a little bit
Speaker 1: differently than me, or that person sitting next to church
Speaker 1: and me who had this odd accent right, or maybe
Speaker 1: was wearing a different sort of hat than I wear?
Speaker 1: Um or uh, you know, we have to start looking
Speaker 1: and look somewhere because if we don't start profiling and
Speaker 1: looking for people who are different than us, they're going
Speaker 1: to do us in um. So here's the thing to me.
Speaker 1: If you switch the word witch and terrorists, you will
Speaker 1: understand just how difficult the task was in six because
Speaker 1: it's the kind of task and trouble we face today. Uh,
Speaker 1: you know where we know, um that we have enemies
Speaker 1: in our midst and if they would, they would destroy
Speaker 1: everything we believe in. They would destroy us. How much
Speaker 1: of our liberties, of our faith, of our of our
Speaker 1: good nature, of our trust of others, of our desire
Speaker 1: to help strangers, no matter how different from us, how
Speaker 1: much of that are we willing to sacrifice to try
Speaker 1: to save everything that we believe in. We are very
Speaker 1: hard in the people of I think if you look
Speaker 1: back on on our on our perspective, in three years,
Speaker 1: people may be hard on us, um and again, despite
Speaker 1: the best intentions of people to create a good, orderly,
Speaker 1: godly society, bad things happen. And I think the thing is,
Speaker 1: you know it to me, the you know, the lesson
Speaker 1: is if we can just if we can just try
Speaker 1: to be understanding your kind of people, you know, and
Speaker 1: try to get through it as best we can, but
Speaker 1: and try to look towards the good and human nature
Speaker 1: and try to avoid those sort of base reflexes as
Speaker 1: much as possible. But you know, it's it's it's it's
Speaker 1: not a happy ending, and we just we just we
Speaker 1: just hope people learn from it. This episode of Unobscured
Speaker 1: was executive produced by me, Matt Rederick, and Alex Williams,
Speaker 1: with music by Chad Lawson and audio engineering by Alex Williams.
Speaker 1: The Unobscured website has everything you need to get the
Speaker 1: most out of the podcast. There's a resource library of maps, charts,
Speaker 1: and links to Salem document archives online as all as
Speaker 1: a suggested reading list and a page with all of
Speaker 1: our historian biographies. And as always, thanks for supporting this show.
Speaker 1: If you love it, head over to Apple podcasts dot
Speaker 1: com slash Unobscured and leave a written review and a
Speaker 1: star rating. It makes a huge difference for the show's growth,
Speaker 1: and as always, thanks for listening.