WEBVTT - S1 – INTERVIEW 1: Emerson Baker 0:00:00.720 --> 0:00:04.920 Today's historian interview is with Professor Emerson Baker. He's the 0:00:04.920 --> 0:00:08.440 Interim Dean of Graduate and Professional Studies as well as 0:00:08.440 --> 0:00:13.800 a professor History over at Salem State University, Yes, that Salem. 0:00:13.840 --> 0:00:16.400 He's an award winning author with many works on the 0:00:16.480 --> 0:00:20.320 history and archaeology of early New England, including A Storm 0:00:20.360 --> 0:00:23.880 of Witchcraft, The Salem Trials and the American Experience, which 0:00:24.000 --> 0:00:27.040 was a source for this series, and the Devil of 0:00:27.080 --> 0:00:30.440 Great Island, Witchcraft and Conflict in Early New England, a 0:00:30.480 --> 0:00:33.960 great book about a stone throwing devil in early colonial 0:00:34.000 --> 0:00:37.320 New Hampshire, something I covered on episode ninety four of 0:00:37.479 --> 0:00:41.239 my other podcast Lore. He served as an advisor for 0:00:41.280 --> 0:00:46.080 PBS TVs American Experience and Colonial House, and has consulted 0:00:46.120 --> 0:00:49.559 and appeared in many documentaries on the Salem Witch Trials. 0:00:49.880 --> 0:00:52.560 He is a member of the Gallows Hill team who 0:00:52.600 --> 0:00:56.200 in two thousand sixteen confirmed the execution site for the 0:00:56.280 --> 0:00:59.120 victims of the Salem witch Trials, and he's also co 0:00:59.280 --> 0:01:02.720 authored the I Phone iPad app the Salem which Trials. 0:01:03.360 --> 0:01:05.640 I had a chance to sit down with Professor Baker 0:01:05.720 --> 0:01:09.200 this past summer and we had a fantastic conversation. So 0:01:09.800 --> 0:01:13.959 without further delay, Let's get on with the show. This 0:01:14.080 --> 0:01:18.880 is the Unobscured Interview series for season one. I'm Aaron Mankey. 0:01:51.960 --> 0:01:56.440 So I'm Emerson Baker. I'm interim dean and professor of 0:01:56.520 --> 0:02:00.720 History at Salem State University in Salem, Massachusetts. I'm going 0:02:00.760 --> 0:02:03.400 to start us off with sort of u uh like 0:02:03.520 --> 0:02:05.560 setting the stage kind of question. Sure, Um, can you 0:02:05.600 --> 0:02:08.799 give us a brief placement of the Salem Trials in 0:02:09.280 --> 0:02:12.239 the context of colonial history? You know, we're we're about 0:02:12.280 --> 0:02:16.000 halfway between English settlement and the independence that will come later. Um, 0:02:16.120 --> 0:02:20.480 how do the events in this particular era shape the 0:02:20.520 --> 0:02:24.919 mindset's attitudes, that practices that we might consider pro to Americans. Sure? Well, 0:02:24.960 --> 0:02:26.560 I mean it seems to me that Salem is is 0:02:26.639 --> 0:02:29.120 kind of a great colonial American tragedy, right, or one 0:02:29.120 --> 0:02:32.840 of several great tragedies, maybe King Phillips were Being being 0:02:32.880 --> 0:02:35.440 another one, which which in some ways I believe they're 0:02:35.480 --> 0:02:38.400 kind of closely related, and that many of the There's 0:02:38.400 --> 0:02:41.240 been many tensions emerging in New England in the seventeenth century, 0:02:41.680 --> 0:02:47.640 um the perceived decline of Puritanism, UM, declining church membership, UM, 0:02:47.800 --> 0:02:50.600 issues over governance, and the fall of the Charter of 0:02:50.639 --> 0:02:54.360 mass Chusetts Bay Colony, where people begin to to doubt 0:02:54.440 --> 0:02:57.600 that that the the Puritan experiment is going to survive, right, 0:02:57.639 --> 0:03:00.480 that it is under threat, and who could be under 0:03:00.480 --> 0:03:02.840 threat from more than anything else, of course, but but 0:03:02.919 --> 0:03:05.679 satan right, and and to me, in many ways, it 0:03:06.040 --> 0:03:09.040 is a critical turning point in American history. And I'm 0:03:09.040 --> 0:03:10.320 not just saying that because my book is in a 0:03:10.360 --> 0:03:13.639 series called Pivotal Moments in American History. I genuinely believe 0:03:13.720 --> 0:03:16.480 this that the Salem Witch Trials in many ways, um 0:03:17.040 --> 0:03:20.240 changed the course of colonial history and uh, and maybe 0:03:20.280 --> 0:03:23.200 the very nature of American society to this day. I 0:03:23.240 --> 0:03:25.359 read a quote from I don't know if he's late 0:03:25.560 --> 0:03:28.440 late nineteenth century early twenty century history and who said 0:03:28.480 --> 0:03:32.760 that the Sailor witch Trials was the rock that theocracy, 0:03:34.000 --> 0:03:37.720 like the American idea of theocracy was broken upon. Yeah, right, 0:03:37.760 --> 0:03:40.480 I I I you know, I don't think it's not like, uh, 0:03:41.080 --> 0:03:45.160 the the sort of Puritan state ended with the Salem 0:03:45.160 --> 0:03:47.640 witch Trials, um, But I I it's the beginning of 0:03:47.640 --> 0:03:50.080 the end. Right. I think Cotton mather In particularly becomes 0:03:50.120 --> 0:03:53.640 pretty much completely discredited by his attempt to defend the 0:03:53.680 --> 0:03:56.680 Puritan state um, and people begin to think, you know, 0:03:56.720 --> 0:03:59.560 maybe it isn't the best idea for the governor's top 0:04:00.040 --> 0:04:03.080 issers to be the ministers of the colony, right, And 0:04:03.200 --> 0:04:05.600 it it's a it's a gradual split. It's not like 0:04:05.640 --> 0:04:08.280 the light switch went off, right. But I think in 0:04:08.320 --> 0:04:11.040 many ways it's it's the Puritan witch trials. The Salem 0:04:11.040 --> 0:04:14.760 witch Trials are the beginning of the end of of 0:04:15.040 --> 0:04:18.520 kind of Puritan Massachusetts, and in some ways really kind 0:04:18.560 --> 0:04:21.240 of that that beginning of the end of of of 0:04:21.279 --> 0:04:23.960 the New England experiment. And and in particular I think 0:04:24.360 --> 0:04:27.479 the the the complete collapse of that ideal of John 0:04:27.480 --> 0:04:29.880 Winthrop's of the city upon a hill, right, And if 0:04:29.880 --> 0:04:32.160 you realize that Salem, of course was the first settlement 0:04:32.160 --> 0:04:36.000 of Massachusetts Bay, and that Winthrop really may have physically 0:04:36.000 --> 0:04:38.800 had Salem in mind as the city upon the hill. 0:04:39.240 --> 0:04:44.600 To have those high expectations completely dashed, there were people 0:04:44.640 --> 0:04:48.080 still living in Salem who would have heard that sermon, right, 0:04:48.240 --> 0:04:50.680 they would have been quite old. But to think within 0:04:50.720 --> 0:04:53.800 a couple of generations that that that that experiment just 0:04:53.800 --> 0:04:56.480 just lay in in shambles. And I think, to me, 0:04:56.960 --> 0:05:01.120 that's why that's why we remember Salem is because um 0:05:01.440 --> 0:05:03.880 it's it's too horrible a fall from grace for us 0:05:03.920 --> 0:05:06.760 to ever forget. And that people in Salem and other 0:05:06.800 --> 0:05:11.680 Americans um constantly reminds Salem and ourselves of of what 0:05:11.720 --> 0:05:14.280 can happen when you you get complacent about those dreams. 0:05:14.800 --> 0:05:21.520 For sure. Obviously witchcraft, accusals, trials, executions, all that. We're 0:05:21.520 --> 0:05:24.880 talking about the New World, Europe, England, um. And there's 0:05:24.880 --> 0:05:28.560 a lot of different sects of the Christian faith represented 0:05:28.600 --> 0:05:32.520 their Catholicism and Anglicanism specifically in Purits in New England 0:05:32.520 --> 0:05:38.560 and in Salem in what was a witch? Wow? Well, 0:05:38.600 --> 0:05:41.800 I mean it's it's it really goes back to to 0:05:41.839 --> 0:05:44.320 the Old Testament really, um, you know as to to 0:05:44.400 --> 0:05:47.839 what a witch is, um, it's someone who is in 0:05:47.920 --> 0:05:51.440 league with with Satan and draws power powers from Satan 0:05:51.520 --> 0:05:55.360 to to harm people or to to harm their possessions. Right, 0:05:55.480 --> 0:05:58.400 simply simply put um it And it can be it 0:05:58.400 --> 0:06:00.560 can be down in a variety of different ways. It 0:06:00.600 --> 0:06:02.039 doesn't have to be what we sort of think of 0:06:02.080 --> 0:06:06.799 even in Salem of sort of affliction and and spectral affliction. 0:06:07.400 --> 0:06:12.679 It can be um causing uh, storms to wreck crops. 0:06:13.040 --> 0:06:16.640 It can be causing uh two cows to dry up 0:06:16.640 --> 0:06:19.080 and no longer produce milk. Or yes, it can be 0:06:19.160 --> 0:06:22.560 direct harm to people. Right. Obviously, the Massachusetts Bay Colony 0:06:22.600 --> 0:06:26.560 was part of the greater British Empire. Um, how connected 0:06:26.800 --> 0:06:29.599 was the colony specifically Salem, as you said it was 0:06:29.640 --> 0:06:32.160 the first settlement, not Boston, but Salem was so how 0:06:32.200 --> 0:06:34.440 connected was it to the global network that made up 0:06:34.440 --> 0:06:37.160 that British Empire. So what's really interesting to me is 0:06:37.160 --> 0:06:41.120 is actually, UH, Massachusetts joins the British Empire in many 0:06:41.160 --> 0:06:44.760 ways only with the new Charter of six with the 0:06:44.839 --> 0:06:47.799 arrival of Governor Phipps in Boston in May of sixteen 0:06:47.839 --> 0:06:50.719 ninety two amid the witch trials. He's the first royal 0:06:50.760 --> 0:06:54.479 governor and Uh, I think in many ways, before his 0:06:54.640 --> 0:06:58.440 arrival and before the loss of the of the massa 0:06:58.480 --> 0:07:02.520 Chusets Bay Charter in the sixteen eighties, UM, Massachusetts, I 0:07:02.560 --> 0:07:04.800 think it considered himself in many ways a law a 0:07:04.839 --> 0:07:07.960 part um. They tended to flaunt and ignore as many 0:07:08.000 --> 0:07:11.200 of the English laws as possible. And I think part 0:07:11.240 --> 0:07:14.120 of the crisis over the Salem witch trials is UH, 0:07:14.280 --> 0:07:16.320 this process of being coming a part of the British 0:07:16.320 --> 0:07:18.960 imperial system. Now, I don't mean to say that they're 0:07:19.160 --> 0:07:21.760 completely isolated, because they're not. And I think the thing 0:07:21.840 --> 0:07:24.840 that we tend to we really uh don't realize just 0:07:24.920 --> 0:07:28.800 how well connected they were with Europe uh and in 0:07:28.840 --> 0:07:31.480 fact throughout the Atlantic world, that there's a vibrant Atlantic 0:07:31.520 --> 0:07:34.560 economy that uh it may take as little as four 0:07:34.640 --> 0:07:36.680 or five weeks for a ship to arrive from London 0:07:37.040 --> 0:07:39.880 if all goes well, and that people are reading the 0:07:40.080 --> 0:07:44.720 London newspapers and and things over here, so as they're 0:07:44.760 --> 0:07:46.720 they're pretty much in tune what's going on over here. 0:07:46.760 --> 0:07:49.200 But that doesn't mean that they're in that sense. Um. 0:07:49.360 --> 0:07:51.960 Massachusetts folks, I think, believe themselves as a part of 0:07:51.960 --> 0:07:54.920 this Puritan state that was in some ways, yes, we 0:07:54.960 --> 0:07:59.240 are Englishmen, we are all Englishmen, um, but we're really 0:07:59.280 --> 0:08:01.960 here for other per poses than those other folks. And 0:08:02.000 --> 0:08:04.120 this this sort of growing idea of empire, I think 0:08:04.200 --> 0:08:07.360 is something that troubles them in some ways. Interesting. Yeah, 0:08:07.560 --> 0:08:10.520 they seem to be driven across the Atlantic to do 0:08:10.640 --> 0:08:14.200 things their way right, and it's I didn't understand, but 0:08:14.840 --> 0:08:17.520 I'm learning that they had free reign to pretty much 0:08:17.560 --> 0:08:18.960 do it their way for a very long time, right, 0:08:19.000 --> 0:08:23.160 And in fact, actually um realized too that in some 0:08:23.200 --> 0:08:26.040 ways Massachusetts becomes its own imperial power in the mid 0:08:26.080 --> 0:08:29.880 seventeenth century UM with the problems of course in England 0:08:29.880 --> 0:08:31.640 at the time. It's the English Civil Wars are taking 0:08:31.640 --> 0:08:35.040 place throughout the sixteen thirties and into the sixteen um 0:08:35.360 --> 0:08:39.960 sixteen forties, and what that means is, uh, you have 0:08:40.120 --> 0:08:42.400 no one over in England and authority to really sort 0:08:42.400 --> 0:08:45.320 of stop the Puritans from in Massachusetts from expanding authority. 0:08:45.520 --> 0:08:48.040 They in the sixteen forties they extended their authority to 0:08:48.360 --> 0:08:51.480 New Hampshire. In the sixteen fifties they largely take over Maine. 0:08:51.720 --> 0:08:56.120 These are Anglican Royalist colonies. But in Massachusetts you have 0:08:56.520 --> 0:08:59.439 the Puritan government which is closely allied with Oliver Cromwell 0:08:59.800 --> 0:09:03.559 and the the victorious Puritan forces in England, and so 0:09:03.960 --> 0:09:07.080 they're they're given pretty much free reign to to dominate 0:09:07.120 --> 0:09:09.120 New England. And it's only after the restoration of the 0:09:09.160 --> 0:09:13.680 monarchy in sixteen sixty that the Stewards begin to say, 0:09:13.720 --> 0:09:16.160 wait a second, we have to reel you back in 0:09:16.160 --> 0:09:18.760 here a little bit here. And so it's all it's 0:09:18.760 --> 0:09:20.000 a you know what this to me is like Salem 0:09:20.080 --> 0:09:22.480 is It's all part of a much larger, more complicated story. 0:09:22.520 --> 0:09:25.040 And to me why I find it so fascinating because 0:09:25.040 --> 0:09:27.120 I think this time period in the late seventeenth century, 0:09:27.440 --> 0:09:29.560 there are so many interesting things going on, and they 0:09:29.600 --> 0:09:31.880 all in some ways, uh some of that so many 0:09:31.880 --> 0:09:33.360 of them come to a head in the form of 0:09:33.400 --> 0:09:35.800 the Salem witch trials. So many people say, well, let's 0:09:35.800 --> 0:09:38.720 talk about Salem, but they don't talk about King Philip's 0:09:38.760 --> 0:09:41.920 War or the English Civil War, um, and all of 0:09:41.920 --> 0:09:44.000 the different factors that are there are all these different 0:09:44.000 --> 0:09:46.000 wires that are tripping, that are causing this one thing 0:09:46.040 --> 0:09:47.680 that happened. Well, and it's why you call your book 0:09:47.679 --> 0:09:50.680 a storm, right, because it is a perfect storm exactly. 0:09:50.679 --> 0:09:52.360 I really try to equate it to that other great 0:09:52.440 --> 0:09:56.520 Essex County tragedy, the perfect storm right where it takes 0:09:57.240 --> 0:09:59.840 a confluence of a number of horrible things come to 0:10:00.160 --> 0:10:04.000 together to create which was, you know, um off the chart, 0:10:04.080 --> 0:10:08.520 the largest uh witchcraft prosecution in in American history of 0:10:08.640 --> 0:10:12.319 you know where you have nineteen people executed, one press 0:10:12.360 --> 0:10:15.240 to death, five more die in prison, over a hundred 0:10:15.240 --> 0:10:18.920 and sixty people accused, uh and and maybe a lot 0:10:19.000 --> 0:10:21.640 more than that. And I think you know, if you 0:10:21.679 --> 0:10:24.080 look most other cases, aside from the Hartford outbreak, which 0:10:24.400 --> 0:10:26.599 it's leon or in the order of like nine or 0:10:26.640 --> 0:10:29.200 ten kind of folks, um, most cases is only one 0:10:29.280 --> 0:10:31.160 or two three people that are accused of witchcraft. So 0:10:31.400 --> 0:10:33.240 clearly there's something we're going out. But the other hand, 0:10:33.280 --> 0:10:37.199 too is in defense of of of of of Salem. Um. 0:10:37.400 --> 0:10:39.160 I'm also fasted with the reason I wrote the book 0:10:39.200 --> 0:10:42.840 was why are we so fascinated with this? Why Salem? 0:10:42.880 --> 0:10:46.640 Because by European standards, Salem, unfortunately is a fly speck. 0:10:47.000 --> 0:10:49.000 You know, in the Great Age of witch hunts over 0:10:49.040 --> 0:10:51.360 several hundred years in Europe, we know that about a 0:10:51.400 --> 0:10:53.840 hundred thousand people were prosecuted and about half of them 0:10:53.840 --> 0:10:57.280 were executed for witchcraft. You know, in in in in Cologne, Germany, 0:10:57.280 --> 0:11:00.240 there was a tenure witchcraft outbreak from the sixt to 0:11:00.280 --> 0:11:03.440 the sixteen thirties where hundreds and hundreds of people lost 0:11:03.480 --> 0:11:05.240 their lives. And I've been I don't know if you've 0:11:05.280 --> 0:11:07.559 been a clone. It's a beautiful city, but no one 0:11:07.600 --> 0:11:10.760 calls it the witch city. So and you know why 0:11:10.840 --> 0:11:13.480 is it that that's that Salem, right is the witch city? 0:11:13.559 --> 0:11:15.160 So and again to me, I think it's alive. It 0:11:15.160 --> 0:11:18.080 has to do with this confluence of of things coming 0:11:18.080 --> 0:11:23.240 together in this supposedly utopian Puritan place and um that 0:11:23.360 --> 0:11:25.280 we're we're sort of living still living in many ways 0:11:25.320 --> 0:11:28.080 in the aftermath of that. Right, absolutely, right. Well, let's 0:11:28.080 --> 0:11:30.559 step back just a little bit more for the witchcraft 0:11:30.600 --> 0:11:32.360 starts and back to the idea of the of the 0:11:32.360 --> 0:11:37.120 British Empire and this global network. Um. Slavery was obviously 0:11:37.160 --> 0:11:40.120 part of this. Can you talk about slavery and what 0:11:40.160 --> 0:11:42.760 it was like in sixteen nineties New England? Sure? Um, 0:11:42.760 --> 0:11:46.480 And slavery is New England's dirty little secret first off, right, Um, 0:11:46.559 --> 0:11:48.840 And we know that as early as the as the 0:11:48.840 --> 0:11:51.800 sixteen thirties that we have the first sort of documented 0:11:51.840 --> 0:11:56.160 evidence of slaves coming into Massachusetts. So not longer after 0:11:56.240 --> 0:11:59.720 after the colony starts, slaves come in as well. Um. 0:11:59.760 --> 0:12:02.680 And they tend to be they're they're not a large 0:12:02.760 --> 0:12:05.200 presence in the in the colony. Um. You know, we 0:12:05.200 --> 0:12:07.800 don't have a plantation economy, um, but we do we 0:12:07.840 --> 0:12:10.840 do need people to you know, work the docks in 0:12:10.880 --> 0:12:14.360 places like you know, in the lumber mills and and 0:12:14.520 --> 0:12:18.160 working the working the crops um. They do become sort 0:12:18.200 --> 0:12:20.760 of a in some ways almost like a status symbol 0:12:21.280 --> 0:12:25.160 for um for the wealthier merchants, I think, and sometimes 0:12:25.200 --> 0:12:28.000 even for example um Cotton Mather was given a slave 0:12:28.360 --> 0:12:31.199 by Governor Phipps Uh in this case where they referred 0:12:31.200 --> 0:12:33.240 to as a Spanish Indian. So we do have we 0:12:33.280 --> 0:12:36.400 do have um um African slaves here. There's there are 0:12:36.440 --> 0:12:40.200 also Native Americans who have been enslaved, some coming from 0:12:40.240 --> 0:12:43.880 the Caribbean UM. Others who are New England Indians who 0:12:43.880 --> 0:12:47.679 have been enslaved in King Phillips War, the Peaquald War UM. 0:12:47.720 --> 0:12:49.960 So there certainly is a long tradition in in in 0:12:50.000 --> 0:12:52.400 New England, as it was in Europe. Of course, of 0:12:52.400 --> 0:12:56.400 of us of servitude, of slavery, particularly for people who 0:12:56.400 --> 0:12:59.920 are other UM. England in the seventeenth century did not 0:13:00.040 --> 0:13:04.360 have a well defined sense of of um race um. 0:13:04.440 --> 0:13:08.040 They understand other um. They understand other being for example, 0:13:08.240 --> 0:13:11.120 the Irish are other. And frankly there's a debate as 0:13:11.160 --> 0:13:14.160 to Native Americans and the Irish. The English and some 0:13:14.200 --> 0:13:16.760 way sort of similar to consider them very similar because 0:13:16.760 --> 0:13:20.280 they consider them both to be pagan and I apologize, 0:13:20.280 --> 0:13:22.440 but I mean this this was the English, particularly the 0:13:22.440 --> 0:13:26.079 purit view of Irish Catholics, right, is that these people 0:13:26.080 --> 0:13:29.840 are unchurched, the wild Irish um. You know, the Scots 0:13:29.840 --> 0:13:31.679 maybe a little bit better because we share the same king, 0:13:31.720 --> 0:13:34.320 but there's still a little different from us, um. And 0:13:34.360 --> 0:13:36.760 so there's a sort of these orders of magnitude of difference. 0:13:36.800 --> 0:13:41.880 And while you would never enslave an Englishman, um boy, 0:13:42.240 --> 0:13:44.480 people who are different from us, you know, we will 0:13:44.520 --> 0:13:47.920 will have an indentured servant in englishman will serve a 0:13:48.040 --> 0:13:51.440 term of service. But people have to be radically different 0:13:51.480 --> 0:13:54.040 to be to be enslaved. So we certainly do have 0:13:54.080 --> 0:13:56.760 a small percentage of folk here we know in Salem, 0:13:56.800 --> 0:14:00.800 particularly in larger ports Salem in Boston um owned by 0:14:01.040 --> 0:14:05.920 the leading families who are are slaves by and of 0:14:05.920 --> 0:14:09.600 course um a few of these these folks um end 0:14:09.720 --> 0:14:12.640 up being involved in the witch trials. So it must 0:14:12.679 --> 0:14:16.480 be significant then that when Samuel Parris arrives in town, 0:14:16.960 --> 0:14:19.960 well not town, the village, that he has at least 0:14:19.960 --> 0:14:22.080 two slaves that we know of inte with him. That 0:14:22.120 --> 0:14:24.760 he's he's he seems to be a little bit of 0:14:24.600 --> 0:14:27.440 a of a not a pretender, but he has tried 0:14:27.560 --> 0:14:30.440 to make a wealthy name for himself. The selling of 0:14:30.480 --> 0:14:32.800 the plantation, the buying of businesses in Boston, and then 0:14:32.800 --> 0:14:35.640 coming up north to sale him with slaves almost feels 0:14:35.680 --> 0:14:39.120 like driving into town in your you know, black five 0:14:39.200 --> 0:14:42.320 series BMW. And I don't know if well, okay, I 0:14:42.440 --> 0:14:44.600 I have maybe a little different. I think you're right. 0:14:44.680 --> 0:14:47.960 I think he's sort of his pretensions. Um, he was raised, 0:14:48.520 --> 0:14:51.280 but I was he was raised in the plantation in 0:14:51.320 --> 0:14:54.560 Barbados where his uh, he inherits a fortune from his 0:14:54.600 --> 0:14:56.400 father and seems to manage to to wipe it out. 0:14:56.400 --> 0:15:00.120 We're not sure how if it's through mismanagement or some 0:15:00.120 --> 0:15:05.120 people suggests the plantation was destroyed in tornadoes hurricanes. Um, 0:15:05.160 --> 0:15:07.400 but I can honestly I consider Samuel Pearis to be 0:15:07.440 --> 0:15:09.920 a professional failure. I think he failed that everything he 0:15:10.240 --> 0:15:14.480 did at life. Right he he Um, he goes he's 0:15:14.480 --> 0:15:17.280 the son of a sugar plant who inherits a plantation 0:15:17.640 --> 0:15:20.320 that should have guaranteed him to be wealthy forever. Right. 0:15:20.680 --> 0:15:23.040 He goes to Harvard, but after a year or two 0:15:23.120 --> 0:15:26.040 he leaves as soon as he hears he's inherited this fortune. 0:15:26.320 --> 0:15:28.520 And again you know who are the leaders of Colonia 0:15:28.520 --> 0:15:31.280 in New England, those wealthy, respected people, but the Harvard 0:15:31.280 --> 0:15:34.240 trained ministers. Right. And then he then he comes leaves 0:15:34.240 --> 0:15:36.160 the Barbados and come back, comes back to Boston and 0:15:36.200 --> 0:15:39.320 tries to be a merchant. And again the wealthy ruling 0:15:39.360 --> 0:15:42.160 elite of Massachusetts, who are the Salem witchcraft judges, They're 0:15:42.160 --> 0:15:45.400 all wealthy Boston merchants. Um, he fails at that. He 0:15:45.880 --> 0:15:47.840 can't make a living doing that. So I think in 0:15:47.920 --> 0:15:50.640 some ways, this guy who never graduated from Harvard, as 0:15:50.640 --> 0:15:54.000 far as we can tell, Um, Salem Village is his 0:15:54.120 --> 0:15:56.720 last chance of success. And you're right. He comes in 0:15:56.760 --> 0:16:00.520 with with slaves, he comes in with pretensions. Um. He 0:16:00.520 --> 0:16:04.120 he is in search for that that stable, comfortable life 0:16:04.520 --> 0:16:07.200 and that position in society, which I think is really 0:16:07.240 --> 0:16:09.280 critical to him. And I think one of the reasons 0:16:09.320 --> 0:16:12.720 Salem becomes a tragedy is because Paris realizes this is 0:16:12.760 --> 0:16:16.680 his last chance to succeed, and he's not going to 0:16:16.720 --> 0:16:20.280 go quietly. He's absolutely it's he's holding on as long 0:16:20.320 --> 0:16:22.200 as he can. And of course he lasts in the 0:16:22.240 --> 0:16:24.960 town a number of years, even after the witch trials, 0:16:25.160 --> 0:16:27.440 when most people are telling him, you know, no, go, 0:16:27.720 --> 0:16:29.960 we don't want you here. I think I think he's 0:16:29.960 --> 0:16:32.480 obviously as a fellow who's very very much understress, he 0:16:32.480 --> 0:16:35.680 clearly feels that he's been attacked by Satan, and he 0:16:36.160 --> 0:16:37.920 this is how his political enemies, I think in the 0:16:38.000 --> 0:16:42.280 village um become more than political enemies, because clearly anybody 0:16:42.320 --> 0:16:44.520 who tries to oppose me in what I'm trying to 0:16:44.560 --> 0:16:47.360 do here into establishing the Godly Kingdom in Salem Village 0:16:47.760 --> 0:16:51.440 must be in some ways influenced by by Satan, and 0:16:51.440 --> 0:16:55.160 that is again part of the part of the tragedy. Right, definitely, 0:16:56.600 --> 0:17:00.080 let's switch to law. Sure, how is Massachusetts colone E 0:17:00.240 --> 0:17:04.840 law different from English law? Yeah, okay, well we're trying 0:17:04.840 --> 0:17:06.399 to We'll try to explain this without boring too many 0:17:06.440 --> 0:17:09.280 people getting too in much detail because it's complicated. Um, 0:17:09.400 --> 0:17:14.080 Massachusetts law is based largely on English common law. But again, 0:17:14.119 --> 0:17:16.480 this whole idea of massa chuse is not being part 0:17:16.520 --> 0:17:20.920 of the British Empire. Up until Massachusetts receives its second 0:17:20.960 --> 0:17:25.840 Charter in s they are allowed to develop whatever laws 0:17:25.840 --> 0:17:28.160 they want with anyone paying too much attention. But when 0:17:28.160 --> 0:17:30.719 they get the new charter and Phipps arrives with it 0:17:30.760 --> 0:17:34.800 in May of six. It very specifically says that Massachusetts, 0:17:34.800 --> 0:17:38.719 all of massa Chusetts laws are now invalid and um 0:17:39.240 --> 0:17:41.919 they have to immediately write a new set of laws 0:17:42.280 --> 0:17:44.840 which shall shall be in alignment with really and shall 0:17:44.960 --> 0:17:47.760 not be repugnant with the laws of England, that they'll 0:17:47.800 --> 0:17:51.600 conform with English common law. And so again this is 0:17:51.640 --> 0:17:54.160 part of that confluence of this. Uh, there's only really 0:17:54.200 --> 0:17:58.119 one year in Massachusetts history where in many ways it 0:17:58.160 --> 0:18:01.320 doesn't have a full set of of legal books, it 0:18:01.400 --> 0:18:04.600 doesn't have a working system of courts, because they have 0:18:04.680 --> 0:18:07.560 to recreate a whole justice system as well too. Instead, 0:18:07.600 --> 0:18:10.239 they're kind of relying on English common law and in 0:18:10.280 --> 0:18:12.800 some degrees I think making it up as they go. 0:18:13.359 --> 0:18:15.439 And here in lies part of the tragedy. Right, So 0:18:15.600 --> 0:18:20.240 is this why when um, on that first day either 0:18:20.520 --> 0:18:22.640 the first marcher end of February, when those when those 0:18:22.680 --> 0:18:24.960 four men walk to sale in town and they stand 0:18:24.960 --> 0:18:27.960 before Hawthorne and Corwyn and they accused for the first time, 0:18:28.400 --> 0:18:32.200 they don't pay that accusational fee like that the deposit 0:18:32.200 --> 0:18:34.159 that you're supposed to make, is that sort of because 0:18:34.200 --> 0:18:37.600 we're in a no rule zone at this point. It's well, 0:18:37.640 --> 0:18:39.280 I think that's part of it. I think there is, 0:18:39.440 --> 0:18:42.560 um there are a number of legal irregularities that take 0:18:42.600 --> 0:18:45.720 place in Salem in six two, and I think and 0:18:45.760 --> 0:18:48.160 part of them, uh, for example, that it's the only 0:18:48.200 --> 0:18:51.159 time in I think in American history where it is 0:18:51.160 --> 0:18:55.920 actually legal to two sees the assets of of someone 0:18:55.960 --> 0:18:58.480 who's been accused of felony. Right. Some of it is, 0:18:58.520 --> 0:19:00.000 I think is the is the lack of an establed 0:19:00.119 --> 0:19:03.119 set of law, and things are kind of murky. I 0:19:03.160 --> 0:19:05.439 also think too, though, what part of it is is 0:19:05.480 --> 0:19:09.760 that there is such an assumption of guilt in unlike 0:19:09.760 --> 0:19:15.440 anything else, and that that makes people take shortcuts. Um. Right. Normally, 0:19:15.640 --> 0:19:18.320 you if you you would have to postpond if you 0:19:18.320 --> 0:19:21.240 were charging someone with with a felony like that um 0:19:21.280 --> 0:19:23.280 to create you know, basically what today would call a 0:19:23.359 --> 0:19:27.000 nuisance suit, right, or to essentially maybe charge persons for 0:19:27.080 --> 0:19:29.760 political purposes or a way to get back at them. Um. 0:19:29.840 --> 0:19:32.280 But that that that uh and then if if the 0:19:32.280 --> 0:19:35.119 case wasn't proven, you'd forfeit your bond. Um. That was 0:19:35.600 --> 0:19:38.439 that was would have been a substantial inducement to not 0:19:38.560 --> 0:19:41.840 accuse someone flippantly of a of a high crime, right, Um, 0:19:42.000 --> 0:19:44.680 But I honestly think too if you, um, I think 0:19:44.680 --> 0:19:47.480 the answer in some degrees comes that if if you again, 0:19:47.480 --> 0:19:50.440 if you look at this sort of building storm cloud. Um, 0:19:50.440 --> 0:19:54.440 whereby six nine two, um, the judges in Massachusetts the 0:19:54.520 --> 0:19:56.320 leaders of the colony, because these also not only the 0:19:56.680 --> 0:20:00.960 your your judges, they're also your wealthiest merchant. They're also 0:20:01.000 --> 0:20:03.280 the members of the Governor's council. They have been appointed 0:20:03.320 --> 0:20:06.840 to their offices in the charter by the king. Um. 0:20:07.040 --> 0:20:10.159 They they know that Satan is in their presence, and 0:20:10.160 --> 0:20:11.760 they've seen that by what's been going on for the 0:20:11.800 --> 0:20:15.080 past few years, this confluence of horrible things, of of 0:20:15.240 --> 0:20:17.480 the worst what we now recognize the worst weather of 0:20:17.480 --> 0:20:20.320 the Little Ice Age, a terrible war that's gone badly 0:20:20.359 --> 0:20:22.560 with the French against the French, and the Native Americans, 0:20:22.840 --> 0:20:25.840 the the the the downfall of puritanism, with that perceived 0:20:25.840 --> 0:20:28.840 downfall of puritanism. Um, I think in two they know 0:20:29.520 --> 0:20:31.639 they know the witchcraft is here, and really the judges 0:20:31.680 --> 0:20:36.320 realized that their job is to round up the witches 0:20:36.520 --> 0:20:37.920 and and take care of them. You know, I think 0:20:38.000 --> 0:20:42.440 that the judges are an interesting group because um, over 0:20:42.480 --> 0:20:45.359 half of them had attended Harvard, and Harvard is supposed 0:20:45.400 --> 0:20:47.879 to be where you go to become a minister. So 0:20:48.000 --> 0:20:50.320 as young men, they believe that their fate, that God's 0:20:50.320 --> 0:20:52.880 plan for them, was to make them Puritan ministers. Yet 0:20:52.960 --> 0:20:55.119 somehow along the way they'd straight from that path and 0:20:55.160 --> 0:20:59.639 instead found themselves to be the wealthiest, most privileged members 0:20:59.640 --> 0:21:03.359 of the call any And I'm I don't mean that 0:21:03.359 --> 0:21:06.000 with too much chest because I think it probably seriously 0:21:06.040 --> 0:21:08.560 nod at them because they were all very developed Puritans, 0:21:08.600 --> 0:21:11.919 and they wondered, I think they wondered what that failing was. 0:21:11.960 --> 0:21:15.280 Why God had changed this path to a path that admittedly, 0:21:15.359 --> 0:21:18.000 you know, it was pretty comfortably most of us would enjoy, right, 0:21:18.280 --> 0:21:20.800 But why? And I think in sixt ninety two they 0:21:20.840 --> 0:21:24.160 found their answer, uh, and that was that in SEO, 0:21:24.200 --> 0:21:27.320 the ministers could not save the colony, but the judges could, 0:21:27.359 --> 0:21:29.959 and this was God's ordained plan, was to put them 0:21:29.960 --> 0:21:32.600 in a position where they could save the colony. And 0:21:32.640 --> 0:21:34.879 I think it goes back if you look at those 0:21:35.760 --> 0:21:39.320 the next day after those first charges, when they're when 0:21:39.359 --> 0:21:44.000