1 00:00:00,720 --> 00:00:04,920 Speaker 1: Today's historian interview is with Professor Emerson Baker. He's the 2 00:00:04,920 --> 00:00:08,440 Speaker 1: Interim Dean of Graduate and Professional Studies as well as 3 00:00:08,440 --> 00:00:13,800 Speaker 1: a professor History over at Salem State University, Yes, that Salem. 4 00:00:13,840 --> 00:00:16,400 Speaker 1: He's an award winning author with many works on the 5 00:00:16,480 --> 00:00:20,320 Speaker 1: history and archaeology of early New England, including A Storm 6 00:00:20,360 --> 00:00:23,880 Speaker 1: of Witchcraft, The Salem Trials and the American Experience, which 7 00:00:24,000 --> 00:00:27,040 Speaker 1: was a source for this series, and the Devil of 8 00:00:27,080 --> 00:00:30,440 Speaker 1: Great Island, Witchcraft and Conflict in Early New England, a 9 00:00:30,480 --> 00:00:33,960 Speaker 1: great book about a stone throwing devil in early colonial 10 00:00:34,000 --> 00:00:37,320 Speaker 1: New Hampshire, something I covered on episode ninety four of 11 00:00:37,479 --> 00:00:41,239 Speaker 1: my other podcast Lore. He served as an advisor for 12 00:00:41,280 --> 00:00:46,080 Speaker 1: PBS TVs American Experience and Colonial House, and has consulted 13 00:00:46,120 --> 00:00:49,559 Speaker 1: and appeared in many documentaries on the Salem Witch Trials. 14 00:00:49,880 --> 00:00:52,560 Speaker 1: He is a member of the Gallows Hill team who 15 00:00:52,600 --> 00:00:56,200 Speaker 1: in two thousand sixteen confirmed the execution site for the 16 00:00:56,280 --> 00:00:59,120 Speaker 1: victims of the Salem witch Trials, and he's also co 17 00:00:59,280 --> 00:01:02,720 Speaker 1: authored the I Phone iPad app the Salem which Trials. 18 00:01:03,360 --> 00:01:05,640 Speaker 1: I had a chance to sit down with Professor Baker 19 00:01:05,720 --> 00:01:09,200 Speaker 1: this past summer and we had a fantastic conversation. So 20 00:01:09,800 --> 00:01:13,959 Speaker 1: without further delay, Let's get on with the show. This 21 00:01:14,080 --> 00:01:18,880 Speaker 1: is the Unobscured Interview series for season one. I'm Aaron Mankey. 22 00:01:51,960 --> 00:01:56,440 Speaker 1: So I'm Emerson Baker. I'm interim dean and professor of 23 00:01:56,520 --> 00:02:00,720 Speaker 1: History at Salem State University in Salem, Massachusetts. I'm going 24 00:02:00,760 --> 00:02:03,400 Speaker 1: to start us off with sort of u uh like 25 00:02:03,520 --> 00:02:05,560 Speaker 1: setting the stage kind of question. Sure, Um, can you 26 00:02:05,600 --> 00:02:08,799 Speaker 1: give us a brief placement of the Salem Trials in 27 00:02:09,280 --> 00:02:12,239 Speaker 1: the context of colonial history? You know, we're we're about 28 00:02:12,280 --> 00:02:16,000 Speaker 1: halfway between English settlement and the independence that will come later. Um, 29 00:02:16,120 --> 00:02:20,480 Speaker 1: how do the events in this particular era shape the 30 00:02:20,520 --> 00:02:24,919 Speaker 1: mindset's attitudes, that practices that we might consider pro to Americans. Sure? Well, 31 00:02:24,960 --> 00:02:26,560 Speaker 1: I mean it seems to me that Salem is is 32 00:02:26,639 --> 00:02:29,120 Speaker 1: kind of a great colonial American tragedy, right, or one 33 00:02:29,120 --> 00:02:32,840 Speaker 1: of several great tragedies, maybe King Phillips were Being being 34 00:02:32,880 --> 00:02:35,440 Speaker 1: another one, which which in some ways I believe they're 35 00:02:35,480 --> 00:02:38,400 Speaker 1: kind of closely related, and that many of the There's 36 00:02:38,400 --> 00:02:41,240 Speaker 1: been many tensions emerging in New England in the seventeenth century, 37 00:02:41,680 --> 00:02:47,640 Speaker 1: um the perceived decline of Puritanism, UM, declining church membership, UM, 38 00:02:47,800 --> 00:02:50,600 Speaker 1: issues over governance, and the fall of the Charter of 39 00:02:50,639 --> 00:02:54,360 Speaker 1: mass Chusetts Bay Colony, where people begin to to doubt 40 00:02:54,440 --> 00:02:57,600 Speaker 1: that that the the Puritan experiment is going to survive, right, 41 00:02:57,639 --> 00:03:00,480 Speaker 1: that it is under threat, and who could be under 42 00:03:00,480 --> 00:03:02,840 Speaker 1: threat from more than anything else, of course, but but 43 00:03:02,919 --> 00:03:05,679 Speaker 1: satan right, and and to me, in many ways, it 44 00:03:06,040 --> 00:03:09,040 Speaker 1: is a critical turning point in American history. And I'm 45 00:03:09,040 --> 00:03:10,320 Speaker 1: not just saying that because my book is in a 46 00:03:10,360 --> 00:03:13,639 Speaker 1: series called Pivotal Moments in American History. I genuinely believe 47 00:03:13,720 --> 00:03:16,480 Speaker 1: this that the Salem Witch Trials in many ways, um 48 00:03:17,040 --> 00:03:20,240 Speaker 1: changed the course of colonial history and uh, and maybe 49 00:03:20,280 --> 00:03:23,200 Speaker 1: the very nature of American society to this day. I 50 00:03:23,240 --> 00:03:25,359 Speaker 1: read a quote from I don't know if he's late 51 00:03:25,560 --> 00:03:28,440 Speaker 1: late nineteenth century early twenty century history and who said 52 00:03:28,480 --> 00:03:32,760 Speaker 1: that the Sailor witch Trials was the rock that theocracy, 53 00:03:34,000 --> 00:03:37,720 Speaker 1: like the American idea of theocracy was broken upon. Yeah, right, 54 00:03:37,760 --> 00:03:40,480 Speaker 1: I I I you know, I don't think it's not like, uh, 55 00:03:41,080 --> 00:03:45,160 Speaker 1: the the sort of Puritan state ended with the Salem 56 00:03:45,160 --> 00:03:47,640 Speaker 1: witch Trials, um, But I I it's the beginning of 57 00:03:47,640 --> 00:03:50,080 Speaker 1: the end. Right. I think Cotton mather In particularly becomes 58 00:03:50,120 --> 00:03:53,640 Speaker 1: pretty much completely discredited by his attempt to defend the 59 00:03:53,680 --> 00:03:56,680 Speaker 1: Puritan state um, and people begin to think, you know, 60 00:03:56,720 --> 00:03:59,560 Speaker 1: maybe it isn't the best idea for the governor's top 61 00:04:00,040 --> 00:04:03,080 Speaker 1: issers to be the ministers of the colony, right, And 62 00:04:03,200 --> 00:04:05,600 Speaker 1: it it's a it's a gradual split. It's not like 63 00:04:05,640 --> 00:04:08,280 Speaker 1: the light switch went off, right. But I think in 64 00:04:08,320 --> 00:04:11,040 Speaker 1: many ways it's it's the Puritan witch trials. The Salem 65 00:04:11,040 --> 00:04:14,760 Speaker 1: witch Trials are the beginning of the end of of 66 00:04:15,040 --> 00:04:18,520 Speaker 1: kind of Puritan Massachusetts, and in some ways really kind 67 00:04:18,560 --> 00:04:21,240 Speaker 1: of that that beginning of the end of of of 68 00:04:21,279 --> 00:04:23,960 Speaker 1: the New England experiment. And and in particular I think 69 00:04:24,360 --> 00:04:27,479 Speaker 1: the the the complete collapse of that ideal of John 70 00:04:27,480 --> 00:04:29,880 Speaker 1: Winthrop's of the city upon a hill, right, And if 71 00:04:29,880 --> 00:04:32,160 Speaker 1: you realize that Salem, of course was the first settlement 72 00:04:32,160 --> 00:04:36,000 Speaker 1: of Massachusetts Bay, and that Winthrop really may have physically 73 00:04:36,000 --> 00:04:38,800 Speaker 1: had Salem in mind as the city upon the hill. 74 00:04:39,240 --> 00:04:44,600 Speaker 1: To have those high expectations completely dashed, there were people 75 00:04:44,640 --> 00:04:48,080 Speaker 1: still living in Salem who would have heard that sermon, right, 76 00:04:48,240 --> 00:04:50,680 Speaker 1: they would have been quite old. But to think within 77 00:04:50,720 --> 00:04:53,800 Speaker 1: a couple of generations that that that that experiment just 78 00:04:53,800 --> 00:04:56,480 Speaker 1: just lay in in shambles. And I think, to me, 79 00:04:56,960 --> 00:05:01,120 Speaker 1: that's why that's why we remember Salem is because um 80 00:05:01,440 --> 00:05:03,880 Speaker 1: it's it's too horrible a fall from grace for us 81 00:05:03,920 --> 00:05:06,760 Speaker 1: to ever forget. And that people in Salem and other 82 00:05:06,800 --> 00:05:11,680 Speaker 1: Americans um constantly reminds Salem and ourselves of of what 83 00:05:11,720 --> 00:05:14,280 Speaker 1: can happen when you you get complacent about those dreams. 84 00:05:14,800 --> 00:05:21,520 Speaker 1: For sure. Obviously witchcraft, accusals, trials, executions, all that. We're 85 00:05:21,520 --> 00:05:24,880 Speaker 1: talking about the New World, Europe, England, um. And there's 86 00:05:24,880 --> 00:05:28,560 Speaker 1: a lot of different sects of the Christian faith represented 87 00:05:28,600 --> 00:05:32,520 Speaker 1: their Catholicism and Anglicanism specifically in Purits in New England 88 00:05:32,520 --> 00:05:38,560 Speaker 1: and in Salem in what was a witch? Wow? Well, 89 00:05:38,600 --> 00:05:41,800 Speaker 1: I mean it's it's it really goes back to to 90 00:05:41,839 --> 00:05:44,320 Speaker 1: the Old Testament really, um, you know as to to 91 00:05:44,400 --> 00:05:47,839 Speaker 1: what a witch is, um, it's someone who is in 92 00:05:47,920 --> 00:05:51,440 Speaker 1: league with with Satan and draws power powers from Satan 93 00:05:51,520 --> 00:05:55,360 Speaker 1: to to harm people or to to harm their possessions. Right, 94 00:05:55,480 --> 00:05:58,400 Speaker 1: simply simply put um it And it can be it 95 00:05:58,400 --> 00:06:00,560 Speaker 1: can be down in a variety of different ways. It 96 00:06:00,600 --> 00:06:02,039 Speaker 1: doesn't have to be what we sort of think of 97 00:06:02,080 --> 00:06:06,799 Speaker 1: even in Salem of sort of affliction and and spectral affliction. 98 00:06:07,400 --> 00:06:12,679 Speaker 1: It can be um causing uh, storms to wreck crops. 99 00:06:13,040 --> 00:06:16,640 Speaker 1: It can be causing uh two cows to dry up 100 00:06:16,640 --> 00:06:19,080 Speaker 1: and no longer produce milk. Or yes, it can be 101 00:06:19,160 --> 00:06:22,560 Speaker 1: direct harm to people. Right. Obviously, the Massachusetts Bay Colony 102 00:06:22,600 --> 00:06:26,560 Speaker 1: was part of the greater British Empire. Um, how connected 103 00:06:26,800 --> 00:06:29,599 Speaker 1: was the colony specifically Salem, as you said it was 104 00:06:29,640 --> 00:06:32,160 Speaker 1: the first settlement, not Boston, but Salem was so how 105 00:06:32,200 --> 00:06:34,440 Speaker 1: connected was it to the global network that made up 106 00:06:34,440 --> 00:06:37,160 Speaker 1: that British Empire. So what's really interesting to me is 107 00:06:37,160 --> 00:06:41,120 Speaker 1: is actually, UH, Massachusetts joins the British Empire in many 108 00:06:41,160 --> 00:06:44,760 Speaker 1: ways only with the new Charter of six with the 109 00:06:44,839 --> 00:06:47,799 Speaker 1: arrival of Governor Phipps in Boston in May of sixteen 110 00:06:47,839 --> 00:06:50,719 Speaker 1: ninety two amid the witch trials. He's the first royal 111 00:06:50,760 --> 00:06:54,479 Speaker 1: governor and Uh, I think in many ways, before his 112 00:06:54,640 --> 00:06:58,440 Speaker 1: arrival and before the loss of the of the massa 113 00:06:58,480 --> 00:07:02,520 Speaker 1: Chusets Bay Charter in the sixteen eighties, UM, Massachusetts, I 114 00:07:02,560 --> 00:07:04,800 Speaker 1: think it considered himself in many ways a law a 115 00:07:04,839 --> 00:07:07,960 Speaker 1: part um. They tended to flaunt and ignore as many 116 00:07:08,000 --> 00:07:11,200 Speaker 1: of the English laws as possible. And I think part 117 00:07:11,240 --> 00:07:14,120 Speaker 1: of the crisis over the Salem witch trials is UH, 118 00:07:14,280 --> 00:07:16,320 Speaker 1: this process of being coming a part of the British 119 00:07:16,320 --> 00:07:18,960 Speaker 1: imperial system. Now, I don't mean to say that they're 120 00:07:19,160 --> 00:07:21,760 Speaker 1: completely isolated, because they're not. And I think the thing 121 00:07:21,840 --> 00:07:24,840 Speaker 1: that we tend to we really uh don't realize just 122 00:07:24,920 --> 00:07:28,800 Speaker 1: how well connected they were with Europe uh and in 123 00:07:28,840 --> 00:07:31,480 Speaker 1: fact throughout the Atlantic world, that there's a vibrant Atlantic 124 00:07:31,520 --> 00:07:34,560 Speaker 1: economy that uh it may take as little as four 125 00:07:34,640 --> 00:07:36,680 Speaker 1: or five weeks for a ship to arrive from London 126 00:07:37,040 --> 00:07:39,880 Speaker 1: if all goes well, and that people are reading the 127 00:07:40,080 --> 00:07:44,720 Speaker 1: London newspapers and and things over here, so as they're 128 00:07:44,760 --> 00:07:46,720 Speaker 1: they're pretty much in tune what's going on over here. 129 00:07:46,760 --> 00:07:49,200 Speaker 1: But that doesn't mean that they're in that sense. Um. 130 00:07:49,360 --> 00:07:51,960 Speaker 1: Massachusetts folks, I think, believe themselves as a part of 131 00:07:51,960 --> 00:07:54,920 Speaker 1: this Puritan state that was in some ways, yes, we 132 00:07:54,960 --> 00:07:59,240 Speaker 1: are Englishmen, we are all Englishmen, um, but we're really 133 00:07:59,280 --> 00:08:01,960 Speaker 1: here for other per poses than those other folks. And 134 00:08:02,000 --> 00:08:04,120 Speaker 1: this this sort of growing idea of empire, I think 135 00:08:04,200 --> 00:08:07,360 Speaker 1: is something that troubles them in some ways. Interesting. Yeah, 136 00:08:07,560 --> 00:08:10,520 Speaker 1: they seem to be driven across the Atlantic to do 137 00:08:10,640 --> 00:08:14,200 Speaker 1: things their way right, and it's I didn't understand, but 138 00:08:14,840 --> 00:08:17,520 Speaker 1: I'm learning that they had free reign to pretty much 139 00:08:17,560 --> 00:08:18,960 Speaker 1: do it their way for a very long time, right, 140 00:08:19,000 --> 00:08:23,160 Speaker 1: And in fact, actually um realized too that in some 141 00:08:23,200 --> 00:08:26,040 Speaker 1: ways Massachusetts becomes its own imperial power in the mid 142 00:08:26,080 --> 00:08:29,880 Speaker 1: seventeenth century UM with the problems of course in England 143 00:08:29,880 --> 00:08:31,640 Speaker 1: at the time. It's the English Civil Wars are taking 144 00:08:31,640 --> 00:08:35,040 Speaker 1: place throughout the sixteen thirties and into the sixteen um 145 00:08:35,360 --> 00:08:39,960 Speaker 1: sixteen forties, and what that means is, uh, you have 146 00:08:40,120 --> 00:08:42,400 Speaker 1: no one over in England and authority to really sort 147 00:08:42,400 --> 00:08:45,320 Speaker 1: of stop the Puritans from in Massachusetts from expanding authority. 148 00:08:45,520 --> 00:08:48,040 Speaker 1: They in the sixteen forties they extended their authority to 149 00:08:48,360 --> 00:08:51,480 Speaker 1: New Hampshire. In the sixteen fifties they largely take over Maine. 150 00:08:51,720 --> 00:08:56,120 Speaker 1: These are Anglican Royalist colonies. But in Massachusetts you have 151 00:08:56,520 --> 00:08:59,439 Speaker 1: the Puritan government which is closely allied with Oliver Cromwell 152 00:08:59,800 --> 00:09:03,559 Speaker 1: and the the victorious Puritan forces in England, and so 153 00:09:03,960 --> 00:09:07,080 Speaker 1: they're they're given pretty much free reign to to dominate 154 00:09:07,120 --> 00:09:09,120 Speaker 1: New England. And it's only after the restoration of the 155 00:09:09,160 --> 00:09:13,680 Speaker 1: monarchy in sixteen sixty that the Stewards begin to say, 156 00:09:13,720 --> 00:09:16,160 Speaker 1: wait a second, we have to reel you back in 157 00:09:16,160 --> 00:09:18,760 Speaker 1: here a little bit here. And so it's all it's 158 00:09:18,760 --> 00:09:20,000 Speaker 1: a you know what this to me is like Salem 159 00:09:20,080 --> 00:09:22,480 Speaker 1: is It's all part of a much larger, more complicated story. 160 00:09:22,520 --> 00:09:25,040 Speaker 1: And to me why I find it so fascinating because 161 00:09:25,040 --> 00:09:27,120 Speaker 1: I think this time period in the late seventeenth century, 162 00:09:27,440 --> 00:09:29,560 Speaker 1: there are so many interesting things going on, and they 163 00:09:29,600 --> 00:09:31,880 Speaker 1: all in some ways, uh some of that so many 164 00:09:31,880 --> 00:09:33,360 Speaker 1: of them come to a head in the form of 165 00:09:33,400 --> 00:09:35,800 Speaker 1: the Salem witch trials. So many people say, well, let's 166 00:09:35,800 --> 00:09:38,720 Speaker 1: talk about Salem, but they don't talk about King Philip's 167 00:09:38,760 --> 00:09:41,920 Speaker 1: War or the English Civil War, um, and all of 168 00:09:41,920 --> 00:09:44,000 Speaker 1: the different factors that are there are all these different 169 00:09:44,000 --> 00:09:46,000 Speaker 1: wires that are tripping, that are causing this one thing 170 00:09:46,040 --> 00:09:47,680 Speaker 1: that happened. Well, and it's why you call your book 171 00:09:47,679 --> 00:09:50,680 Speaker 1: a storm, right, because it is a perfect storm exactly. 172 00:09:50,679 --> 00:09:52,360 Speaker 1: I really try to equate it to that other great 173 00:09:52,440 --> 00:09:56,520 Speaker 1: Essex County tragedy, the perfect storm right where it takes 174 00:09:57,240 --> 00:09:59,840 Speaker 1: a confluence of a number of horrible things come to 175 00:10:00,160 --> 00:10:04,000 Speaker 1: together to create which was, you know, um off the chart, 176 00:10:04,080 --> 00:10:08,520 Speaker 1: the largest uh witchcraft prosecution in in American history of 177 00:10:08,640 --> 00:10:12,319 Speaker 1: you know where you have nineteen people executed, one press 178 00:10:12,360 --> 00:10:15,240 Speaker 1: to death, five more die in prison, over a hundred 179 00:10:15,240 --> 00:10:18,920 Speaker 1: and sixty people accused, uh and and maybe a lot 180 00:10:19,000 --> 00:10:21,640 Speaker 1: more than that. And I think you know, if you 181 00:10:21,679 --> 00:10:24,080 Speaker 1: look most other cases, aside from the Hartford outbreak, which 182 00:10:24,400 --> 00:10:26,599 Speaker 1: it's leon or in the order of like nine or 183 00:10:26,640 --> 00:10:29,200 Speaker 1: ten kind of folks, um, most cases is only one 184 00:10:29,280 --> 00:10:31,160 Speaker 1: or two three people that are accused of witchcraft. So 185 00:10:31,400 --> 00:10:33,240 Speaker 1: clearly there's something we're going out. But the other hand, 186 00:10:33,280 --> 00:10:37,199 Speaker 1: too is in defense of of of of of Salem. Um. 187 00:10:37,400 --> 00:10:39,160 Speaker 1: I'm also fasted with the reason I wrote the book 188 00:10:39,200 --> 00:10:42,840 Speaker 1: was why are we so fascinated with this? Why Salem? 189 00:10:42,880 --> 00:10:46,640 Speaker 1: Because by European standards, Salem, unfortunately is a fly speck. 190 00:10:47,000 --> 00:10:49,000 Speaker 1: You know, in the Great Age of witch hunts over 191 00:10:49,040 --> 00:10:51,360 Speaker 1: several hundred years in Europe, we know that about a 192 00:10:51,400 --> 00:10:53,840 Speaker 1: hundred thousand people were prosecuted and about half of them 193 00:10:53,840 --> 00:10:57,280 Speaker 1: were executed for witchcraft. You know, in in in in Cologne, Germany, 194 00:10:57,280 --> 00:11:00,240 Speaker 1: there was a tenure witchcraft outbreak from the sixt to 195 00:11:00,280 --> 00:11:03,440 Speaker 1: the sixteen thirties where hundreds and hundreds of people lost 196 00:11:03,480 --> 00:11:05,240 Speaker 1: their lives. And I've been I don't know if you've 197 00:11:05,280 --> 00:11:07,559 Speaker 1: been a clone. It's a beautiful city, but no one 198 00:11:07,600 --> 00:11:10,760 Speaker 1: calls it the witch city. So and you know why 199 00:11:10,840 --> 00:11:13,480 Speaker 1: is it that that's that Salem, right is the witch city? 200 00:11:13,559 --> 00:11:15,160 Speaker 1: So and again to me, I think it's alive. It 201 00:11:15,160 --> 00:11:18,080 Speaker 1: has to do with this confluence of of things coming 202 00:11:18,080 --> 00:11:23,240 Speaker 1: together in this supposedly utopian Puritan place and um that 203 00:11:23,360 --> 00:11:25,280 Speaker 1: we're we're sort of living still living in many ways 204 00:11:25,320 --> 00:11:28,080 Speaker 1: in the aftermath of that. Right, absolutely, right. Well, let's 205 00:11:28,080 --> 00:11:30,559 Speaker 1: step back just a little bit more for the witchcraft 206 00:11:30,600 --> 00:11:32,360 Speaker 1: starts and back to the idea of the of the 207 00:11:32,360 --> 00:11:37,120 Speaker 1: British Empire and this global network. Um. Slavery was obviously 208 00:11:37,160 --> 00:11:40,120 Speaker 1: part of this. Can you talk about slavery and what 209 00:11:40,160 --> 00:11:42,760 Speaker 1: it was like in sixteen nineties New England? Sure? Um, 210 00:11:42,760 --> 00:11:46,480 Speaker 1: And slavery is New England's dirty little secret first off, right, Um, 211 00:11:46,559 --> 00:11:48,840 Speaker 1: And we know that as early as the as the 212 00:11:48,840 --> 00:11:51,800 Speaker 1: sixteen thirties that we have the first sort of documented 213 00:11:51,840 --> 00:11:56,160 Speaker 1: evidence of slaves coming into Massachusetts. So not longer after 214 00:11:56,240 --> 00:11:59,720 Speaker 1: after the colony starts, slaves come in as well. Um. 215 00:11:59,760 --> 00:12:02,680 Speaker 1: And they tend to be they're they're not a large 216 00:12:02,760 --> 00:12:05,200 Speaker 1: presence in the in the colony. Um. You know, we 217 00:12:05,200 --> 00:12:07,800 Speaker 1: don't have a plantation economy, um, but we do we 218 00:12:07,840 --> 00:12:10,840 Speaker 1: do need people to you know, work the docks in 219 00:12:10,880 --> 00:12:14,360 Speaker 1: places like you know, in the lumber mills and and 220 00:12:14,520 --> 00:12:18,160 Speaker 1: working the working the crops um. They do become sort 221 00:12:18,200 --> 00:12:20,760 Speaker 1: of a in some ways almost like a status symbol 222 00:12:21,280 --> 00:12:25,160 Speaker 1: for um for the wealthier merchants, I think, and sometimes 223 00:12:25,200 --> 00:12:28,000 Speaker 1: even for example um Cotton Mather was given a slave 224 00:12:28,360 --> 00:12:31,199 Speaker 1: by Governor Phipps Uh in this case where they referred 225 00:12:31,200 --> 00:12:33,240 Speaker 1: to as a Spanish Indian. So we do have we 226 00:12:33,280 --> 00:12:36,400 Speaker 1: do have um um African slaves here. There's there are 227 00:12:36,440 --> 00:12:40,200 Speaker 1: also Native Americans who have been enslaved, some coming from 228 00:12:40,240 --> 00:12:43,880 Speaker 1: the Caribbean UM. Others who are New England Indians who 229 00:12:43,880 --> 00:12:47,679 Speaker 1: have been enslaved in King Phillips War, the Peaquald War UM. 230 00:12:47,720 --> 00:12:49,960 Speaker 1: So there certainly is a long tradition in in in 231 00:12:50,000 --> 00:12:52,400 Speaker 1: New England, as it was in Europe. Of course, of 232 00:12:52,400 --> 00:12:56,400 Speaker 1: of us of servitude, of slavery, particularly for people who 233 00:12:56,400 --> 00:12:59,920 Speaker 1: are other UM. England in the seventeenth century did not 234 00:13:00,040 --> 00:13:04,360 Speaker 1: have a well defined sense of of um race um. 235 00:13:04,440 --> 00:13:08,040 Speaker 1: They understand other um. They understand other being for example, 236 00:13:08,240 --> 00:13:11,120 Speaker 1: the Irish are other. And frankly there's a debate as 237 00:13:11,160 --> 00:13:14,160 Speaker 1: to Native Americans and the Irish. The English and some 238 00:13:14,200 --> 00:13:16,760 Speaker 1: way sort of similar to consider them very similar because 239 00:13:16,760 --> 00:13:20,280 Speaker 1: they consider them both to be pagan and I apologize, 240 00:13:20,280 --> 00:13:22,440 Speaker 1: but I mean this this was the English, particularly the 241 00:13:22,440 --> 00:13:26,079 Speaker 1: purit view of Irish Catholics, right, is that these people 242 00:13:26,080 --> 00:13:29,840 Speaker 1: are unchurched, the wild Irish um. You know, the Scots 243 00:13:29,840 --> 00:13:31,679 Speaker 1: maybe a little bit better because we share the same king, 244 00:13:31,720 --> 00:13:34,320 Speaker 1: but there's still a little different from us, um. And 245 00:13:34,360 --> 00:13:36,760 Speaker 1: so there's a sort of these orders of magnitude of difference. 246 00:13:36,800 --> 00:13:41,880 Speaker 1: And while you would never enslave an Englishman, um boy, 247 00:13:42,240 --> 00:13:44,480 Speaker 1: people who are different from us, you know, we will 248 00:13:44,520 --> 00:13:47,920 Speaker 1: will have an indentured servant in englishman will serve a 249 00:13:48,040 --> 00:13:51,440 Speaker 1: term of service. But people have to be radically different 250 00:13:51,480 --> 00:13:54,040 Speaker 1: to be to be enslaved. So we certainly do have 251 00:13:54,080 --> 00:13:56,760 Speaker 1: a small percentage of folk here we know in Salem, 252 00:13:56,800 --> 00:14:00,800 Speaker 1: particularly in larger ports Salem in Boston um owned by 253 00:14:01,040 --> 00:14:05,920 Speaker 1: the leading families who are are slaves by and of 254 00:14:05,920 --> 00:14:09,600 Speaker 1: course um a few of these these folks um end 255 00:14:09,720 --> 00:14:12,640 Speaker 1: up being involved in the witch trials. So it must 256 00:14:12,679 --> 00:14:16,480 Speaker 1: be significant then that when Samuel Parris arrives in town, 257 00:14:16,960 --> 00:14:19,960 Speaker 1: well not town, the village, that he has at least 258 00:14:19,960 --> 00:14:22,080 Speaker 1: two slaves that we know of inte with him. That 259 00:14:22,120 --> 00:14:24,760 Speaker 1: he's he's he seems to be a little bit of 260 00:14:24,600 --> 00:14:27,440 Speaker 1: a of a not a pretender, but he has tried 261 00:14:27,560 --> 00:14:30,440 Speaker 1: to make a wealthy name for himself. The selling of 262 00:14:30,480 --> 00:14:32,800 Speaker 1: the plantation, the buying of businesses in Boston, and then 263 00:14:32,800 --> 00:14:35,640 Speaker 1: coming up north to sale him with slaves almost feels 264 00:14:35,680 --> 00:14:39,120 Speaker 1: like driving into town in your you know, black five 265 00:14:39,200 --> 00:14:42,320 Speaker 1: series BMW. And I don't know if well, okay, I 266 00:14:42,440 --> 00:14:44,600 Speaker 1: I have maybe a little different. I think you're right. 267 00:14:44,680 --> 00:14:47,960 Speaker 1: I think he's sort of his pretensions. Um, he was raised, 268 00:14:48,520 --> 00:14:51,280 Speaker 1: but I was he was raised in the plantation in 269 00:14:51,320 --> 00:14:54,560 Speaker 1: Barbados where his uh, he inherits a fortune from his 270 00:14:54,600 --> 00:14:56,400 Speaker 1: father and seems to manage to to wipe it out. 271 00:14:56,400 --> 00:15:00,120 Speaker 1: We're not sure how if it's through mismanagement or some 272 00:15:00,120 --> 00:15:05,120 Speaker 1: people suggests the plantation was destroyed in tornadoes hurricanes. Um, 273 00:15:05,160 --> 00:15:07,400 Speaker 1: but I can honestly I consider Samuel Pearis to be 274 00:15:07,440 --> 00:15:09,920 Speaker 1: a professional failure. I think he failed that everything he 275 00:15:10,240 --> 00:15:14,480 Speaker 1: did at life. Right he he Um, he goes he's 276 00:15:14,480 --> 00:15:17,280 Speaker 1: the son of a sugar plant who inherits a plantation 277 00:15:17,640 --> 00:15:20,320 Speaker 1: that should have guaranteed him to be wealthy forever. Right. 278 00:15:20,680 --> 00:15:23,040 Speaker 1: He goes to Harvard, but after a year or two 279 00:15:23,120 --> 00:15:26,040 Speaker 1: he leaves as soon as he hears he's inherited this fortune. 280 00:15:26,320 --> 00:15:28,520 Speaker 1: And again you know who are the leaders of Colonia 281 00:15:28,520 --> 00:15:31,280 Speaker 1: in New England, those wealthy, respected people, but the Harvard 282 00:15:31,280 --> 00:15:34,240 Speaker 1: trained ministers. Right. And then he then he comes leaves 283 00:15:34,240 --> 00:15:36,160 Speaker 1: the Barbados and come back, comes back to Boston and 284 00:15:36,200 --> 00:15:39,320 Speaker 1: tries to be a merchant. And again the wealthy ruling 285 00:15:39,360 --> 00:15:42,160 Speaker 1: elite of Massachusetts, who are the Salem witchcraft judges, They're 286 00:15:42,160 --> 00:15:45,400 Speaker 1: all wealthy Boston merchants. Um, he fails at that. He 287 00:15:45,880 --> 00:15:47,840 Speaker 1: can't make a living doing that. So I think in 288 00:15:47,920 --> 00:15:50,640 Speaker 1: some ways, this guy who never graduated from Harvard, as 289 00:15:50,640 --> 00:15:54,000 Speaker 1: far as we can tell, Um, Salem Village is his 290 00:15:54,120 --> 00:15:56,720 Speaker 1: last chance of success. And you're right. He comes in 291 00:15:56,760 --> 00:16:00,520 Speaker 1: with with slaves, he comes in with pretensions. Um. He 292 00:16:00,520 --> 00:16:04,120 Speaker 1: he is in search for that that stable, comfortable life 293 00:16:04,520 --> 00:16:07,200 Speaker 1: and that position in society, which I think is really 294 00:16:07,240 --> 00:16:09,280 Speaker 1: critical to him. And I think one of the reasons 295 00:16:09,320 --> 00:16:12,720 Speaker 1: Salem becomes a tragedy is because Paris realizes this is 296 00:16:12,760 --> 00:16:16,680 Speaker 1: his last chance to succeed, and he's not going to 297 00:16:16,720 --> 00:16:20,280 Speaker 1: go quietly. He's absolutely it's he's holding on as long 298 00:16:20,320 --> 00:16:22,200 Speaker 1: as he can. And of course he lasts in the 299 00:16:22,240 --> 00:16:24,960 Speaker 1: town a number of years, even after the witch trials, 300 00:16:25,160 --> 00:16:27,440 Speaker 1: when most people are telling him, you know, no, go, 301 00:16:27,720 --> 00:16:29,960 Speaker 1: we don't want you here. I think I think he's 302 00:16:29,960 --> 00:16:32,480 Speaker 1: obviously as a fellow who's very very much understress, he 303 00:16:32,480 --> 00:16:35,680 Speaker 1: clearly feels that he's been attacked by Satan, and he 304 00:16:36,160 --> 00:16:37,920 Speaker 1: this is how his political enemies, I think in the 305 00:16:38,000 --> 00:16:42,280 Speaker 1: village um become more than political enemies, because clearly anybody 306 00:16:42,320 --> 00:16:44,520 Speaker 1: who tries to oppose me in what I'm trying to 307 00:16:44,560 --> 00:16:47,360 Speaker 1: do here into establishing the Godly Kingdom in Salem Village 308 00:16:47,760 --> 00:16:51,440 Speaker 1: must be in some ways influenced by by Satan, and 309 00:16:51,440 --> 00:16:55,160 Speaker 1: that is again part of the part of the tragedy. Right, definitely, 310 00:16:56,600 --> 00:17:00,080 Speaker 1: let's switch to law. Sure, how is Massachusetts colone E 311 00:17:00,240 --> 00:17:04,840 Speaker 1: law different from English law? Yeah, okay, well we're trying 312 00:17:04,840 --> 00:17:06,399 Speaker 1: to We'll try to explain this without boring too many 313 00:17:06,440 --> 00:17:09,280 Speaker 1: people getting too in much detail because it's complicated. Um, 314 00:17:09,400 --> 00:17:14,080 Speaker 1: Massachusetts law is based largely on English common law. But again, 315 00:17:14,119 --> 00:17:16,480 Speaker 1: this whole idea of massa chuse is not being part 316 00:17:16,520 --> 00:17:20,920 Speaker 1: of the British Empire. Up until Massachusetts receives its second 317 00:17:20,960 --> 00:17:25,840 Speaker 1: Charter in s they are allowed to develop whatever laws 318 00:17:25,840 --> 00:17:28,160 Speaker 1: they want with anyone paying too much attention. But when 319 00:17:28,160 --> 00:17:30,719 Speaker 1: they get the new charter and Phipps arrives with it 320 00:17:30,760 --> 00:17:34,800 Speaker 1: in May of six. It very specifically says that Massachusetts, 321 00:17:34,800 --> 00:17:38,719 Speaker 1: all of massa Chusetts laws are now invalid and um 322 00:17:39,240 --> 00:17:41,919 Speaker 1: they have to immediately write a new set of laws 323 00:17:42,280 --> 00:17:44,840 Speaker 1: which shall shall be in alignment with really and shall 324 00:17:44,960 --> 00:17:47,760 Speaker 1: not be repugnant with the laws of England, that they'll 325 00:17:47,800 --> 00:17:51,600 Speaker 1: conform with English common law. And so again this is 326 00:17:51,640 --> 00:17:54,160 Speaker 1: part of that confluence of this. Uh, there's only really 327 00:17:54,200 --> 00:17:58,119 Speaker 1: one year in Massachusetts history where in many ways it 328 00:17:58,160 --> 00:18:01,320 Speaker 1: doesn't have a full set of of legal books, it 329 00:18:01,400 --> 00:18:04,600 Speaker 1: doesn't have a working system of courts, because they have 330 00:18:04,680 --> 00:18:07,560 Speaker 1: to recreate a whole justice system as well too. Instead, 331 00:18:07,600 --> 00:18:10,239 Speaker 1: they're kind of relying on English common law and in 332 00:18:10,280 --> 00:18:12,800 Speaker 1: some degrees I think making it up as they go. 333 00:18:13,359 --> 00:18:15,439 Speaker 1: And here in lies part of the tragedy. Right, So 334 00:18:15,600 --> 00:18:20,240 Speaker 1: is this why when um, on that first day either 335 00:18:20,520 --> 00:18:22,640 Speaker 1: the first marcher end of February, when those when those 336 00:18:22,680 --> 00:18:24,960 Speaker 1: four men walk to sale in town and they stand 337 00:18:24,960 --> 00:18:27,960 Speaker 1: before Hawthorne and Corwyn and they accused for the first time, 338 00:18:28,400 --> 00:18:32,200 Speaker 1: they don't pay that accusational fee like that the deposit 339 00:18:32,200 --> 00:18:34,159 Speaker 1: that you're supposed to make, is that sort of because 340 00:18:34,200 --> 00:18:37,600 Speaker 1: we're in a no rule zone at this point. It's well, 341 00:18:37,640 --> 00:18:39,280 Speaker 1: I think that's part of it. I think there is, 342 00:18:39,440 --> 00:18:42,560 Speaker 1: um there are a number of legal irregularities that take 343 00:18:42,600 --> 00:18:45,720 Speaker 1: place in Salem in six two, and I think and 344 00:18:45,760 --> 00:18:48,160 Speaker 1: part of them, uh, for example, that it's the only 345 00:18:48,200 --> 00:18:51,159 Speaker 1: time in I think in American history where it is 346 00:18:51,160 --> 00:18:55,920 Speaker 1: actually legal to two sees the assets of of someone 347 00:18:55,960 --> 00:18:58,480 Speaker 1: who's been accused of felony. Right. Some of it is, 348 00:18:58,520 --> 00:19:00,000 Speaker 1: I think is the is the lack of an establed 349 00:19:00,119 --> 00:19:03,119 Speaker 1: set of law, and things are kind of murky. I 350 00:19:03,160 --> 00:19:05,439 Speaker 1: also think too, though, what part of it is is 351 00:19:05,480 --> 00:19:09,760 Speaker 1: that there is such an assumption of guilt in unlike 352 00:19:09,760 --> 00:19:15,440 Speaker 1: anything else, and that that makes people take shortcuts. Um. Right. Normally, 353 00:19:15,640 --> 00:19:18,320 Speaker 1: you if you you would have to postpond if you 354 00:19:18,320 --> 00:19:21,240 Speaker 1: were charging someone with with a felony like that um 355 00:19:21,280 --> 00:19:23,280 Speaker 1: to create you know, basically what today would call a 356 00:19:23,359 --> 00:19:27,000 Speaker 1: nuisance suit, right, or to essentially maybe charge persons for 357 00:19:27,080 --> 00:19:29,760 Speaker 1: political purposes or a way to get back at them. Um. 358 00:19:29,840 --> 00:19:32,280 Speaker 1: But that that that uh and then if if the 359 00:19:32,280 --> 00:19:35,119 Speaker 1: case wasn't proven, you'd forfeit your bond. Um. That was 360 00:19:35,600 --> 00:19:38,439 Speaker 1: that was would have been a substantial inducement to not 361 00:19:38,560 --> 00:19:41,840 Speaker 1: accuse someone flippantly of a of a high crime, right, Um, 362 00:19:42,000 --> 00:19:44,680 Speaker 1: But I honestly think too if you, um, I think 363 00:19:44,680 --> 00:19:47,480 Speaker 1: the answer in some degrees comes that if if you again, 364 00:19:47,480 --> 00:19:50,440 Speaker 1: if you look at this sort of building storm cloud. Um, 365 00:19:50,440 --> 00:19:54,440 Speaker 1: whereby six nine two, um, the judges in Massachusetts the 366 00:19:54,520 --> 00:19:56,320 Speaker 1: leaders of the colony, because these also not only the 367 00:19:56,680 --> 00:20:00,960 Speaker 1: your your judges, they're also your wealthiest merchant. They're also 368 00:20:01,000 --> 00:20:03,280 Speaker 1: the members of the Governor's council. They have been appointed 369 00:20:03,320 --> 00:20:06,840 Speaker 1: to their offices in the charter by the king. Um. 370 00:20:07,040 --> 00:20:10,159 Speaker 1: They they know that Satan is in their presence, and 371 00:20:10,160 --> 00:20:11,760 Speaker 1: they've seen that by what's been going on for the 372 00:20:11,800 --> 00:20:15,080 Speaker 1: past few years, this confluence of horrible things, of of 373 00:20:15,240 --> 00:20:17,480 Speaker 1: the worst what we now recognize the worst weather of 374 00:20:17,480 --> 00:20:20,320 Speaker 1: the Little Ice Age, a terrible war that's gone badly 375 00:20:20,359 --> 00:20:22,560 Speaker 1: with the French against the French, and the Native Americans, 376 00:20:22,840 --> 00:20:25,840 Speaker 1: the the the the downfall of puritanism, with that perceived 377 00:20:25,840 --> 00:20:28,840 Speaker 1: downfall of puritanism. Um, I think in two they know 378 00:20:29,520 --> 00:20:31,639 Speaker 1: they know the witchcraft is here, and really the judges 379 00:20:31,680 --> 00:20:36,320 Speaker 1: realized that their job is to round up the witches 380 00:20:36,520 --> 00:20:37,920 Speaker 1: and and take care of them. You know, I think 381 00:20:38,000 --> 00:20:42,440 Speaker 1: that the judges are an interesting group because um, over 382 00:20:42,480 --> 00:20:45,359 Speaker 1: half of them had attended Harvard, and Harvard is supposed 383 00:20:45,400 --> 00:20:47,879 Speaker 1: to be where you go to become a minister. So 384 00:20:48,000 --> 00:20:50,320 Speaker 1: as young men, they believe that their fate, that God's 385 00:20:50,320 --> 00:20:52,880 Speaker 1: plan for them, was to make them Puritan ministers. Yet 386 00:20:52,960 --> 00:20:55,119 Speaker 1: somehow along the way they'd straight from that path and 387 00:20:55,160 --> 00:20:59,639 Speaker 1: instead found themselves to be the wealthiest, most privileged members 388 00:20:59,640 --> 00:21:03,359 Speaker 1: of the call any And I'm I don't mean that 389 00:21:03,359 --> 00:21:06,000 Speaker 1: with too much chest because I think it probably seriously 390 00:21:06,040 --> 00:21:08,560 Speaker 1: nod at them because they were all very developed Puritans, 391 00:21:08,600 --> 00:21:11,919 Speaker 1: and they wondered, I think they wondered what that failing was. 392 00:21:11,960 --> 00:21:15,280 Speaker 1: Why God had changed this path to a path that admittedly, 393 00:21:15,359 --> 00:21:18,000 Speaker 1: you know, it was pretty comfortably most of us would enjoy, right, 394 00:21:18,280 --> 00:21:20,800 Speaker 1: But why? And I think in sixt ninety two they 395 00:21:20,840 --> 00:21:24,160 Speaker 1: found their answer, uh, and that was that in SEO, 396 00:21:24,200 --> 00:21:27,320 Speaker 1: the ministers could not save the colony, but the judges could, 397 00:21:27,359 --> 00:21:29,959 Speaker 1: and this was God's ordained plan, was to put them 398 00:21:29,960 --> 00:21:32,600 Speaker 1: in a position where they could save the colony. And 399 00:21:32,640 --> 00:21:34,879 Speaker 1: I think it goes back if you look at those 400 00:21:35,760 --> 00:21:39,320 Speaker 1: the next day after those first charges, when they're when 401 00:21:39,359 --> 00:21:44,000 Speaker 1: they're when they're bringing uh, the three the three accused 402 00:21:44,440 --> 00:21:49,800 Speaker 1: Titeba and and Sarah Osborne and and Goody good to account. 403 00:21:50,119 --> 00:21:53,240 Speaker 1: The first questions they ask by these guys who have 404 00:21:53,320 --> 00:21:55,960 Speaker 1: been most of them had been judges in court cases 405 00:21:56,000 --> 00:21:58,879 Speaker 1: for many years where in English justice it's a pretty 406 00:21:58,880 --> 00:22:02,240 Speaker 1: fair system was and still is now. Right. The first 407 00:22:02,320 --> 00:22:06,159 Speaker 1: question these judges, experienced judges face is how long have 408 00:22:06,240 --> 00:22:08,880 Speaker 1: you been in league with Satan? Why do you hurt 409 00:22:08,920 --> 00:22:11,600 Speaker 1: these children? Um? And and they might as well ask 410 00:22:11,640 --> 00:22:14,200 Speaker 1: and when did you stop beating your husband? Right? Um, 411 00:22:14,359 --> 00:22:17,200 Speaker 1: there's a presumption of guilt there. And if you realize 412 00:22:17,200 --> 00:22:19,560 Speaker 1: that many of these judges on the witchcraft panel had 413 00:22:19,560 --> 00:22:22,840 Speaker 1: actually been involved in witchcraft cases before, um that had 414 00:22:22,880 --> 00:22:27,040 Speaker 1: not convicted people. Um. As recently as four years earlier 415 00:22:27,040 --> 00:22:30,040 Speaker 1: in sight, some of these fellows had been involved in 416 00:22:30,040 --> 00:22:33,680 Speaker 1: a witchcraft case in Boston where when the woman pled 417 00:22:33,680 --> 00:22:36,920 Speaker 1: guilty of witchcraft, the judges would not accept the verdict 418 00:22:37,640 --> 00:22:42,560 Speaker 1: until a panel of doctors and physicians had interviewed her 419 00:22:42,800 --> 00:22:45,840 Speaker 1: to make sure that she was of sane mind. So 420 00:22:45,880 --> 00:22:48,480 Speaker 1: you had that kind of rejection of the notion of 421 00:22:48,920 --> 00:22:52,880 Speaker 1: people being guilty of witchcraft in sixteen nine two. They 422 00:22:52,880 --> 00:22:55,000 Speaker 1: don't have that compunction at all. They're trying to force 423 00:22:55,040 --> 00:22:58,840 Speaker 1: testimony out and uh and and conviction out because essentially 424 00:22:58,840 --> 00:23:01,920 Speaker 1: they realized, look at we know Satan's here. Our job 425 00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:05,159 Speaker 1: is to find out who the witches are and to 426 00:23:05,320 --> 00:23:10,080 Speaker 1: deal with them. Right. One of those men is John Hawthorne. Yes, 427 00:23:11,240 --> 00:23:14,919 Speaker 1: but we in writing the first episode, I wanted to 428 00:23:14,960 --> 00:23:18,160 Speaker 1: start with William Hawthorne, his father. And this is a man, 429 00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:21,480 Speaker 1: William Hawthorne, who contributed to the forming of a lot 430 00:23:21,520 --> 00:23:24,480 Speaker 1: of those Massachusetts Bay laws. Right. Yeah, he was and 431 00:23:24,480 --> 00:23:28,040 Speaker 1: at the time was living in Salem Village. Think about that. Oh, 432 00:23:28,040 --> 00:23:29,679 Speaker 1: he didn't live in the town. He came into that. 433 00:23:29,720 --> 00:23:33,359 Speaker 1: But I'm saying originally his family lived out on Hawthorne Hill. 434 00:23:33,400 --> 00:23:36,840 Speaker 1: That's where John Hay Hawthorne or Haythorne would have been born. Actually, 435 00:23:37,080 --> 00:23:40,359 Speaker 1: And it's only what like in the sixties sixties or 436 00:23:40,440 --> 00:23:43,000 Speaker 1: so when they do move in, because what happens is 437 00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:45,280 Speaker 1: Salem becomes this the mercantile center, and were at the 438 00:23:45,280 --> 00:23:48,119 Speaker 1: beginning of that division of Salem Town in Salem Village 439 00:23:48,160 --> 00:23:50,080 Speaker 1: that then many ways, boy or and this bomb made 440 00:23:50,119 --> 00:23:53,280 Speaker 1: made kind of famous, right um. And and William and 441 00:23:53,320 --> 00:23:56,320 Speaker 1: his son John going to business together at a young age. 442 00:23:56,320 --> 00:23:59,080 Speaker 1: For John you have William Hawthorne as sort of this 443 00:23:59,720 --> 00:24:04,439 Speaker 1: local respected figure and the laws go away. You're in 444 00:24:04,480 --> 00:24:07,560 Speaker 1: this this window of time where it's it's sort of 445 00:24:07,960 --> 00:24:10,960 Speaker 1: let's just protect the Puritan ideal here. And John is 446 00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:14,920 Speaker 1: a judge, so I get that he feels this desire 447 00:24:15,040 --> 00:24:19,159 Speaker 1: to protect the Puritan mission that there are. But do 448 00:24:19,200 --> 00:24:21,760 Speaker 1: you feel like from the other side that the community 449 00:24:22,040 --> 00:24:24,760 Speaker 1: looks to him in these moments and says, you're John 450 00:24:24,760 --> 00:24:28,160 Speaker 1: Hawthorne can help us through this. I think that's equally 451 00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:31,760 Speaker 1: true of of the other judges as well, because they 452 00:24:32,080 --> 00:24:35,480 Speaker 1: are the interesting group, right. I mean, if you, um, 453 00:24:35,560 --> 00:24:37,800 Speaker 1: if you look at the nine, um, most of them 454 00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:40,800 Speaker 1: again are very experienced and long standing, most of the 455 00:24:40,920 --> 00:24:45,240 Speaker 1: members of the second generation. UM you in that you 456 00:24:45,280 --> 00:24:49,879 Speaker 1: also have UM Bartholo mc gudney. Again, he's the colonel, 457 00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:53,199 Speaker 1: he's the second generation merchant. He's a physician. He's the 458 00:24:53,240 --> 00:24:57,080 Speaker 1: colonel in charge and command of the Essex County Militia. UM. 459 00:24:57,119 --> 00:25:00,520 Speaker 1: You know you you you have UM Jonathan Corwin, who 460 00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:04,480 Speaker 1: again UM Haythorns and Corwin's for for two generations. The 461 00:25:04,480 --> 00:25:06,879 Speaker 1: fathers had been you know, served in the legislature. Together 462 00:25:07,119 --> 00:25:09,720 Speaker 1: they had helped make Salem what it was as this 463 00:25:09,800 --> 00:25:14,520 Speaker 1: as this this bustling, shiny seaport, and and they had 464 00:25:14,560 --> 00:25:18,160 Speaker 1: been the family traditions of militia officers. By the way, 465 00:25:18,440 --> 00:25:22,280 Speaker 1: William Haythorn owned through the Peaquot War, actually owned own 466 00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:25,480 Speaker 1: Native American slaves. But just so you know, so there's 467 00:25:25,480 --> 00:25:27,679 Speaker 1: a history there because all these people who are military 468 00:25:27,800 --> 00:25:29,880 Speaker 1: leaders at the time and government leaders during the time 469 00:25:29,880 --> 00:25:33,520 Speaker 1: of the Peaquot War were given We're given Peaquats as slaves. 470 00:25:33,600 --> 00:25:36,399 Speaker 1: So you mentioned slaves earlier. I just well, I think 471 00:25:36,440 --> 00:25:38,119 Speaker 1: that falls into the that falls into the idea of 472 00:25:38,160 --> 00:25:40,600 Speaker 1: the other as well that you mentioned before. I mean, um, 473 00:25:40,960 --> 00:25:45,679 Speaker 1: Haythorn was was known to abuse and persecute Quakers, anybody 474 00:25:45,680 --> 00:25:49,560 Speaker 1: who wasn't Puritan. Yeah, and you see that that that 475 00:25:49,720 --> 00:25:52,320 Speaker 1: long history of Salem, of this that tortured quite literally 476 00:25:52,359 --> 00:25:57,200 Speaker 1: tortured relationship with Quakers. Because again, if you're if you're 477 00:25:57,200 --> 00:25:59,320 Speaker 1: not one of us, if you're not a Puritan, then 478 00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:01,439 Speaker 1: then you're against us. And one of the point is 479 00:26:01,840 --> 00:26:04,840 Speaker 1: what that means is is that you are are are 480 00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:08,760 Speaker 1: stopping really the the creation of this godly community of 481 00:26:08,760 --> 00:26:11,240 Speaker 1: the city upon the hill, right, and that the goal 482 00:26:11,280 --> 00:26:13,680 Speaker 1: of course this, I mean, it sounds wonderful. The parance 483 00:26:13,720 --> 00:26:15,719 Speaker 1: want to come to create this religious experiment. And if 484 00:26:15,760 --> 00:26:18,560 Speaker 1: you read the Salem Charter, the original Salem Charter of six, 485 00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:22,359 Speaker 1: it's only a couple of sentences long and basically says 486 00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:24,520 Speaker 1: we want to come here and walk hand in hand 487 00:26:24,560 --> 00:26:26,960 Speaker 1: with each other and with God and fellowship and and 488 00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:29,679 Speaker 1: this is supposed to be their whole legal code. Right. Um. 489 00:26:29,760 --> 00:26:32,520 Speaker 1: After Roger Williams is banished from Salem as minister because 490 00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:35,320 Speaker 1: where he was the minister here. Everyone seems to think 491 00:26:35,320 --> 00:26:37,280 Speaker 1: he was in Boston, but he was here, and and 492 00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:39,560 Speaker 1: all the troubles with the government here. After that they 493 00:26:39,600 --> 00:26:41,480 Speaker 1: rewrite the Salem Covenant, and they go on for pages 494 00:26:41,480 --> 00:26:44,560 Speaker 1: about thou shalt not and thou shalt right. Um. I 495 00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:47,399 Speaker 1: think um, they were very much concerned of trying to 496 00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:51,479 Speaker 1: maintain that orthodoxy right, and people good Puritan leaders like 497 00:26:51,640 --> 00:26:56,120 Speaker 1: Haythorn and Corwin and Getney and and and and the 498 00:26:56,160 --> 00:26:59,400 Speaker 1: Stounton of course as the leader of the court, Uh 499 00:26:59,440 --> 00:27:02,560 Speaker 1: and and and Samuel Sewul, all of them are this 500 00:27:02,640 --> 00:27:05,920 Speaker 1: is their goal is to be um, the leaders of 501 00:27:05,960 --> 00:27:09,399 Speaker 1: creating this Puritan state. And in fact is Uh two 502 00:27:09,480 --> 00:27:12,000 Speaker 1: years before the witch trials in many of these men, 503 00:27:12,040 --> 00:27:16,000 Speaker 1: as members of the Governor's Council had passed emotion to 504 00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:19,840 Speaker 1: to create UH had a day of fasting and and 505 00:27:19,840 --> 00:27:24,280 Speaker 1: and public reformation and a call for public reformation UM, 506 00:27:24,320 --> 00:27:27,679 Speaker 1: which basically means UH. They're very specifically say that you 507 00:27:27,680 --> 00:27:30,440 Speaker 1: know there's going to be in short hand, there's gonna 508 00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:33,520 Speaker 1: be less less less singing and dancing and drinking and 509 00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:36,679 Speaker 1: more back in the meeting house. And kids will be 510 00:27:36,720 --> 00:27:39,440 Speaker 1: in schools and they'll be reading the Bible, because that's 511 00:27:39,480 --> 00:27:42,679 Speaker 1: why we created schools. UM. And it's again you can 512 00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:45,000 Speaker 1: imagine talking about division of shure to state. Imagine how 513 00:27:45,040 --> 00:27:47,120 Speaker 1: that would go over in Massachusetts of the legislature tried 514 00:27:47,160 --> 00:27:49,480 Speaker 1: to do that today. But these people were all afraid 515 00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:52,480 Speaker 1: that that that that that order that they've been seeking, 516 00:27:52,520 --> 00:27:55,080 Speaker 1: that Puritan state that they've been trying to create, was 517 00:27:55,080 --> 00:27:57,520 Speaker 1: was was was just in danger of collapse, and that 518 00:27:57,520 --> 00:28:00,000 Speaker 1: they had to do something. UM. And they actually wrote 519 00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:02,560 Speaker 1: this order that was proclaimed and read from every pulpit 520 00:28:02,520 --> 00:28:06,959 Speaker 1: in the colony UM in sixteen ninety. Context is key, right, 521 00:28:07,119 --> 00:28:09,520 Speaker 1: So you can't answer a question in isolation, and you 522 00:28:09,520 --> 00:28:12,359 Speaker 1: have to reference this well, I mean Honestly, I'm not 523 00:28:12,400 --> 00:28:13,840 Speaker 1: trying to put plugs in for my book, but that's 524 00:28:13,880 --> 00:28:16,360 Speaker 1: what the reason one of the I wrote the book 525 00:28:16,359 --> 00:28:19,560 Speaker 1: for a couple of reasons, and one was because everything 526 00:28:19,600 --> 00:28:22,480 Speaker 1: I'm having taught in Salem for over twenty years, the 527 00:28:22,560 --> 00:28:24,440 Speaker 1: things I was reading about in the books and what 528 00:28:24,560 --> 00:28:28,040 Speaker 1: I was actually learning didn't They didn't fit one thing. 529 00:28:28,240 --> 00:28:31,200 Speaker 1: But also too, I realized that so many you can't 530 00:28:31,280 --> 00:28:34,320 Speaker 1: look at Salem as an isolated incident into you have 531 00:28:34,359 --> 00:28:36,919 Speaker 1: to look at in the broader history of Salem's history, 532 00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:39,960 Speaker 1: from the Native American village to the fishing village of 533 00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:42,640 Speaker 1: nam Ki, to its growth as a as a as 534 00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:46,240 Speaker 1: a great port, and it's subsequent history to really understand 535 00:28:46,640 --> 00:28:48,520 Speaker 1: and put the witch trials in context, and to just 536 00:28:48,680 --> 00:28:53,440 Speaker 1: look at Salem village as boy Nisse and Bomb do. Brilliant, brilliant, 537 00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:56,480 Speaker 1: maybe still the best book on the Salem witch Trials, 538 00:28:56,560 --> 00:28:58,959 Speaker 1: But you can't understand what happened, is Sixto. If you're 539 00:28:58,960 --> 00:29:01,360 Speaker 1: only looking at factional as a in Salem village, um, 540 00:29:01,600 --> 00:29:03,440 Speaker 1: you you you can't. You can't do it. If you're 541 00:29:03,440 --> 00:29:05,720 Speaker 1: only looking at the issues of which is as women 542 00:29:05,720 --> 00:29:08,760 Speaker 1: as witches in gender, um you have to pull back 543 00:29:08,880 --> 00:29:11,040 Speaker 1: right and get that that view because all these pieces 544 00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:13,480 Speaker 1: they all connect, don't they well? And there are pieces 545 00:29:13,520 --> 00:29:16,600 Speaker 1: that you wouldn't expect to connect. I can expect well. 546 00:29:16,640 --> 00:29:19,480 Speaker 1: I mean, I think the English Civil War in the 547 00:29:19,520 --> 00:29:22,360 Speaker 1: decades leading up to the witch trials in Salem, that's 548 00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:25,680 Speaker 1: an obvious connection to look at, because it's it's English, 549 00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:29,160 Speaker 1: it's it's it's adjacent. But but I think what people 550 00:29:29,200 --> 00:29:31,880 Speaker 1: forget about our things like King Philip's War or King 551 00:29:31,880 --> 00:29:35,000 Speaker 1: William's War, and what was going on on the frontiers 552 00:29:35,040 --> 00:29:38,920 Speaker 1: of New England with the Native Americans with the settlers. Um, 553 00:29:39,400 --> 00:29:43,760 Speaker 1: How did things like Kings will King Philip's War um 554 00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:46,440 Speaker 1: set the stage for what was happening in Salem. You 555 00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:51,160 Speaker 1: have to realize that, Um, the Native Americans were considered 556 00:29:51,160 --> 00:29:54,400 Speaker 1: again by the Puritans as being kind of um heathen 557 00:29:54,680 --> 00:29:57,960 Speaker 1: pardon me, pagan um. And of course there was an 558 00:29:57,960 --> 00:30:01,760 Speaker 1: effort underway by some Puritans like John Elliott to create 559 00:30:01,920 --> 00:30:05,520 Speaker 1: sort of English Native American Puritans, right, the praying Indians 560 00:30:06,040 --> 00:30:08,400 Speaker 1: um and their their towns established that. But for the 561 00:30:08,400 --> 00:30:10,360 Speaker 1: most part, the Purans interesting because they try to convert 562 00:30:10,400 --> 00:30:13,400 Speaker 1: people by example. You know, they're not active proselytizers like 563 00:30:13,440 --> 00:30:16,920 Speaker 1: the Jesuit missions are up in up in Canada. Um. 564 00:30:16,960 --> 00:30:20,240 Speaker 1: So it's never gonna work all that great. Um. But 565 00:30:20,280 --> 00:30:23,440 Speaker 1: the bigger problem is um, Native Americans from the beginning 566 00:30:23,440 --> 00:30:26,520 Speaker 1: are considered because they're not Christian. Um, they are considered 567 00:30:26,560 --> 00:30:28,200 Speaker 1: in some ways to be in league with Satan from 568 00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:30,720 Speaker 1: the get go. And and for the most part, where 569 00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:33,320 Speaker 1: do they live. They live out in what the Puritans 570 00:30:33,320 --> 00:30:37,480 Speaker 1: considered to be the howling wilderness, the frontier um, what 571 00:30:37,480 --> 00:30:40,960 Speaker 1: what you could consider a dark corner of Puritan piety. 572 00:30:41,320 --> 00:30:44,640 Speaker 1: You know, woods are filled filled with with imps and 573 00:30:44,760 --> 00:30:49,000 Speaker 1: evil spirits and demons, and so it's very easy to 574 00:30:49,040 --> 00:30:52,200 Speaker 1: equate um. You know, King Phillips War with and with 575 00:30:52,240 --> 00:30:55,160 Speaker 1: these frontier warfare, and even more so King Williams War, 576 00:30:55,240 --> 00:30:57,680 Speaker 1: which comes really, you know, just like a dozen years 577 00:30:57,760 --> 00:31:00,320 Speaker 1: later and takes place mostly on the frontier of Maine 578 00:31:00,360 --> 00:31:04,840 Speaker 1: in New Hampshire, in northern Essex County. These these wild 579 00:31:05,040 --> 00:31:08,040 Speaker 1: areas filled by Native Americans and to the north their 580 00:31:08,120 --> 00:31:14,320 Speaker 1: French Catholic non Puritan folks who are allies of the Pope, 581 00:31:14,360 --> 00:31:16,840 Speaker 1: the minions of the Pope. So King Williams were in 582 00:31:16,920 --> 00:31:19,800 Speaker 1: particular when it when it breaks out in in Maine 583 00:31:19,840 --> 00:31:23,800 Speaker 1: and begins to be seen as this, this this unholy 584 00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:28,800 Speaker 1: alliance of the Puritans, horrible enemies right the the the 585 00:31:28,800 --> 00:31:33,360 Speaker 1: the non non Catholic UH Native Americans in league with 586 00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:36,040 Speaker 1: the French Catholics who are the minions of the Pope. 587 00:31:36,400 --> 00:31:39,360 Speaker 1: And you have these forces who are clearly agents of Satan, 588 00:31:39,360 --> 00:31:42,440 Speaker 1: who are going to destroy the New England experiment. UM. 589 00:31:42,480 --> 00:31:47,480 Speaker 1: So when they lose that when when they lose that war, uh, 590 00:31:47,920 --> 00:31:51,200 Speaker 1: it's seen not just as a military defeat, one that 591 00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:55,000 Speaker 1: creates tremendous burdens on Salem. Uh. The tax rates go 592 00:31:55,120 --> 00:31:59,040 Speaker 1: through the ceiling. Um. Many refugees, people who would come 593 00:31:59,080 --> 00:32:02,440 Speaker 1: from Essex County UH and migrated into Maine in the 594 00:32:02,480 --> 00:32:06,200 Speaker 1: sixteen eighties are now come back to Salem with nothing 595 00:32:06,200 --> 00:32:08,640 Speaker 1: but the clothes on their backs. UM. So you have 596 00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:14,520 Speaker 1: this horrible political situation, economic situation. UM. And imagine this 597 00:32:14,560 --> 00:32:18,000 Speaker 1: if you're in Salem village or Salem, and all of 598 00:32:18,040 --> 00:32:21,080 Speaker 1: a sudden who shows up on your doorstep but your 599 00:32:21,080 --> 00:32:23,560 Speaker 1: sister in law and her five hungry kids and all 600 00:32:23,600 --> 00:32:25,400 Speaker 1: they have their other clothes on the back and they're 601 00:32:25,440 --> 00:32:28,360 Speaker 1: barely escaped from the burning rubble of a town in 602 00:32:28,400 --> 00:32:31,400 Speaker 1: Maine and Native American attack, and that oldest kid is 603 00:32:31,440 --> 00:32:34,000 Speaker 1: an oath and he eats like a horse, and I 604 00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:36,560 Speaker 1: got to find him a job, but he's lazy, and 605 00:32:36,640 --> 00:32:41,000 Speaker 1: my taxes are going through the roof. People are terrified 606 00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:44,600 Speaker 1: by what's going on. They're upset, and they don't see 607 00:32:44,720 --> 00:32:47,240 Speaker 1: an end to it. There's no effort by the English 608 00:32:47,240 --> 00:32:50,600 Speaker 1: to really turn the war around. So um it is. 609 00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:53,000 Speaker 1: It is a very It's just it's just chaos. And 610 00:32:53,040 --> 00:32:55,680 Speaker 1: people really think in many ways that that that the 611 00:32:55,880 --> 00:32:58,680 Speaker 1: that there the experiment is coming to an end. Um. 612 00:32:58,720 --> 00:33:01,840 Speaker 1: A few years later, Um, the Earl of bellamont In 613 00:33:01,840 --> 00:33:05,760 Speaker 1: se who's governor actually after Sir William Phipps, and I 614 00:33:05,760 --> 00:33:09,320 Speaker 1: think it's about um. When there's sort of a recess 615 00:33:09,360 --> 00:33:12,440 Speaker 1: between King Williams war in Queen Ann's War, which won't 616 00:33:12,480 --> 00:33:15,280 Speaker 1: start for a couple more years, he writes a letter 617 00:33:15,280 --> 00:33:18,720 Speaker 1: home to his wife and he says, essentially, I may 618 00:33:18,760 --> 00:33:23,800 Speaker 1: be home soon because if the Native Americans get their 619 00:33:23,840 --> 00:33:27,360 Speaker 1: acts together, they will drive us into the ocean. And 620 00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:29,640 Speaker 1: it's funny because you know we we think today of 621 00:33:29,640 --> 00:33:33,080 Speaker 1: American exceptionalism and and you know from c Too Shining 622 00:33:33,200 --> 00:33:37,320 Speaker 1: Sea and westward progress and manifest destiny. In the six nineties, 623 00:33:37,360 --> 00:33:39,960 Speaker 1: people didn't feel that way by the by the time 624 00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:41,600 Speaker 1: this war is over. At the end of this a 625 00:33:41,640 --> 00:33:44,240 Speaker 1: couple of years after the Salem which trials no one 626 00:33:44,360 --> 00:33:48,520 Speaker 1: is no No Europeans are living anywhere in New England UM, 627 00:33:48,560 --> 00:33:52,080 Speaker 1: really north of UH, really much north of like Portsmouth, 628 00:33:52,120 --> 00:33:55,800 Speaker 1: New Hampshire, UM, and any way to the westward of 629 00:33:55,840 --> 00:34:00,320 Speaker 1: current interstate. The rest of it is no man Land. 630 00:34:00,360 --> 00:34:03,560 Speaker 1: And they're they're clinging on for dear life. And they've 631 00:34:04,680 --> 00:34:07,000 Speaker 1: people who have been living throughout much of the interior 632 00:34:07,040 --> 00:34:10,320 Speaker 1: of southern New England. And there are dozens of settlements 633 00:34:10,320 --> 00:34:15,080 Speaker 1: in Maine burnt, destroyed, abandoned, and are we going to 634 00:34:15,160 --> 00:34:18,080 Speaker 1: be next? And this is the punishment that God is 635 00:34:18,120 --> 00:34:22,120 Speaker 1: giving us for not being devout enough and not fulfilling 636 00:34:22,120 --> 00:34:24,960 Speaker 1: our mission and our promise to Him. So even this 637 00:34:25,000 --> 00:34:30,800 Speaker 1: military disaster against this powerful other right who in previous 638 00:34:30,880 --> 00:34:34,360 Speaker 1: times you may have enslaved UH is coming back to 639 00:34:34,440 --> 00:34:39,240 Speaker 1: haunt you well. And it's in some ways the news 640 00:34:39,360 --> 00:34:42,400 Speaker 1: of that conflict is coming into Salem. But like you said, 641 00:34:43,360 --> 00:34:46,520 Speaker 1: the people from that conflict are walking back into Salem. 642 00:34:46,560 --> 00:34:52,320 Speaker 1: You know, defeated, broken, with nothing to their name. It's easy. 643 00:34:52,760 --> 00:34:55,920 Speaker 1: When I was first reading about Sarah Good, for example, 644 00:34:56,080 --> 00:34:59,240 Speaker 1: do you have a typical other, Right, she's the outsider, 645 00:34:59,280 --> 00:35:02,240 Speaker 1: she's poor, it's but again it comes from a really wealthy, 646 00:35:02,280 --> 00:35:07,440 Speaker 1: respected family. But through life circumstances maybe uh uh, you know, 647 00:35:07,440 --> 00:35:10,239 Speaker 1: a husband dying young, right, she and maybe becomes a 648 00:35:10,239 --> 00:35:14,520 Speaker 1: little adult distempered exactly, not the local beggar woman. But 649 00:35:14,800 --> 00:35:16,200 Speaker 1: I look at the way that they treat her, and 650 00:35:16,239 --> 00:35:19,640 Speaker 1: I think to myself, how how un Christian or uncharitable 651 00:35:19,640 --> 00:35:21,799 Speaker 1: they were toward her. But when you put it in 652 00:35:21,840 --> 00:35:25,239 Speaker 1: the perspective of there are other people coming into town 653 00:35:25,280 --> 00:35:27,640 Speaker 1: with nothing left because they're coming from the frontier, because 654 00:35:27,640 --> 00:35:30,719 Speaker 1: they're running from these attacks, Um, it's just a constant 655 00:35:30,760 --> 00:35:33,160 Speaker 1: hammering away at the people of sale and village exactly. 656 00:35:33,200 --> 00:35:34,320 Speaker 1: And but I think I will say, in this and 657 00:35:34,400 --> 00:35:36,200 Speaker 1: Sarah Good's case, I think the I think in part 658 00:35:36,239 --> 00:35:37,880 Speaker 1: of maybe because I think there's a chance she was 659 00:35:37,920 --> 00:35:41,280 Speaker 1: a Quaker. She certainly may have a Quaker sympathies. Um. 660 00:35:41,320 --> 00:35:44,760 Speaker 1: Her famous last words, God will give you blood to drink, 661 00:35:45,000 --> 00:35:47,560 Speaker 1: Minister Noise says to her on the right on when 662 00:35:47,640 --> 00:35:50,759 Speaker 1: when she's facing the noose, she said, you know, basically, come, come, women, 663 00:35:50,840 --> 00:35:52,680 Speaker 1: you know you're gonna die, but you might as well 664 00:35:52,680 --> 00:35:56,799 Speaker 1: clear your conscience. Um. And and she said, you know, 665 00:35:56,880 --> 00:36:00,319 Speaker 1: I I'm no more which than you are. And if 666 00:36:00,360 --> 00:36:02,040 Speaker 1: you kill me, God will give you blood to drink. 667 00:36:02,120 --> 00:36:05,400 Speaker 1: So take that. And of course, decades later, supposedly Noise 668 00:36:05,560 --> 00:36:09,799 Speaker 1: actually died of like a brain aneurysm, where supposedly his 669 00:36:09,840 --> 00:36:11,480 Speaker 1: mouth might have filled with blood. We don't know. But 670 00:36:11,560 --> 00:36:14,000 Speaker 1: the point is, um on the one hand, and you know, 671 00:36:14,080 --> 00:36:17,160 Speaker 1: that's actually a quote out of Revelation UM, where one 672 00:36:17,160 --> 00:36:18,399 Speaker 1: of the one of the sort of plagues that will 673 00:36:18,440 --> 00:36:20,680 Speaker 1: come to the earth is is the waters will turn 674 00:36:20,760 --> 00:36:23,040 Speaker 1: to blood and you'll have to drink it. And um. 675 00:36:23,400 --> 00:36:25,319 Speaker 1: So on the one hand, one initially saw that, I thought, wow, 676 00:36:25,320 --> 00:36:28,760 Speaker 1: Sarah good, that's pretty good. She's showing she was showing Noise. 677 00:36:28,960 --> 00:36:31,080 Speaker 1: You know what, I'm a perfectly good purit and here 678 00:36:31,120 --> 00:36:33,120 Speaker 1: I am facing death and I'm going to quote scripture 679 00:36:33,160 --> 00:36:35,600 Speaker 1: to you. But it's more complicated than that, because, as 680 00:36:35,600 --> 00:36:39,120 Speaker 1: it turns out, back in this early sixteen sixties, when 681 00:36:39,200 --> 00:36:43,960 Speaker 1: the Massachusetts government is executing Quakers in Boston for simply 682 00:36:44,000 --> 00:36:47,600 Speaker 1: trying to proselytize the faith. Um uh. An englishman writes 683 00:36:47,640 --> 00:36:51,640 Speaker 1: a book about your behaviors and tells the magistrates that 684 00:36:51,680 --> 00:36:53,560 Speaker 1: they have to stop with your doing or God will 685 00:36:53,560 --> 00:36:56,759 Speaker 1: give them blood to drink. So Sarah Good in that 686 00:36:56,800 --> 00:36:59,680 Speaker 1: famous quote was actually not just wasn't a biblical quote. 687 00:36:59,800 --> 00:37:03,319 Speaker 1: She was actually quoting from a Quaker complaint against the 688 00:37:03,320 --> 00:37:07,160 Speaker 1: magistrates of Massachusetts. So there may be a lot of 689 00:37:07,200 --> 00:37:09,160 Speaker 1: reasons why Sarah I'm not even I'm not sure she 690 00:37:09,239 --> 00:37:11,640 Speaker 1: was a Quaker necessarily, but she certainly lived in that 691 00:37:11,680 --> 00:37:15,839 Speaker 1: part of Salem that was susceptible to where the Quakers lived. Um, 692 00:37:15,840 --> 00:37:18,160 Speaker 1: so she certainly would have known about them and may 693 00:37:18,160 --> 00:37:20,960 Speaker 1: have been uh might well have even a Quaker sympathies. 694 00:37:21,480 --> 00:37:25,080 Speaker 1: That's amazing. Well, you know, you think about her first 695 00:37:25,120 --> 00:37:30,280 Speaker 1: examination on March one. Where were they asked? They say, um, 696 00:37:30,320 --> 00:37:32,440 Speaker 1: you were at you know, Reverend Paris's house and you 697 00:37:32,440 --> 00:37:35,080 Speaker 1: were muttering something. Were you muttering? You know? And she says, well, 698 00:37:35,080 --> 00:37:38,080 Speaker 1: it was I was reciting the commandment? You know, Well, 699 00:37:38,080 --> 00:37:40,880 Speaker 1: what which one? Well, I think it was the Psalms. 700 00:37:41,239 --> 00:37:43,000 Speaker 1: Well recite it for us, you know. And she has 701 00:37:43,040 --> 00:37:45,560 Speaker 1: trouble with this. It's it's a battle, and it paints 702 00:37:45,560 --> 00:37:51,760 Speaker 1: this picture that she's this ungodly, um disinterested, non Puritan 703 00:37:51,800 --> 00:37:53,719 Speaker 1: woman in a Puritan village, but at the end of 704 00:37:53,760 --> 00:37:56,040 Speaker 1: the day, at the end of her life, right there 705 00:37:56,040 --> 00:37:57,520 Speaker 1: at the news. And and again I think it makes 706 00:37:57,560 --> 00:37:58,879 Speaker 1: too is the fact that I mean they're there their 707 00:37:59,040 --> 00:38:01,120 Speaker 1: reference to her being maybe being adult. And I think 708 00:38:01,160 --> 00:38:04,360 Speaker 1: you know, today she may have been a person who 709 00:38:04,400 --> 00:38:07,399 Speaker 1: you know, had said some some mental challenges, right, Uh. 710 00:38:07,400 --> 00:38:09,680 Speaker 1: And particularly God knows if you're into those certain circumstances, 711 00:38:09,719 --> 00:38:15,759 Speaker 1: because she's from a prosperous, wealthy family. And um, I'm 712 00:38:15,800 --> 00:38:17,879 Speaker 1: sure it was a very it was very tough life 713 00:38:17,880 --> 00:38:19,520 Speaker 1: that she found herself in too, not even own a 714 00:38:19,680 --> 00:38:22,480 Speaker 1: own a home. Uh. And to be sort of living 715 00:38:22,480 --> 00:38:25,760 Speaker 1: in people's barns, and and and having to go uh, 716 00:38:25,800 --> 00:38:27,480 Speaker 1: to be from a proud family, to have to go 717 00:38:27,600 --> 00:38:30,920 Speaker 1: to the minister and basically begging for for for a 718 00:38:30,960 --> 00:38:35,000 Speaker 1: scrap of food for for you and your your children. Um, 719 00:38:35,080 --> 00:38:37,719 Speaker 1: that's that takes a lot out of you, right and 720 00:38:37,719 --> 00:38:39,200 Speaker 1: and and and the thing is too, is I mean, 721 00:38:39,400 --> 00:38:41,600 Speaker 1: this wasn't that the Puritans were an uncharitable people, because 722 00:38:41,640 --> 00:38:44,279 Speaker 1: they because they were, but I think they also this 723 00:38:44,360 --> 00:38:46,759 Speaker 1: is the time, you know, um, when there begins to 724 00:38:46,760 --> 00:38:49,080 Speaker 1: be more sort of individual responsibility, right, and that's one 725 00:38:49,120 --> 00:38:51,640 Speaker 1: of the major thrust of the seventies century, the kind 726 00:38:51,640 --> 00:38:55,960 Speaker 1: of the rise of capitalism. And uh, I think that's 727 00:38:55,960 --> 00:38:57,840 Speaker 1: one of the general tensions that witchcraft is a part of. 728 00:38:57,840 --> 00:39:00,000 Speaker 1: Many scholars are pointed to write that those sorts of 729 00:39:00,080 --> 00:39:04,080 Speaker 1: tensions with with an event as big as the Sailorwich stress, 730 00:39:04,160 --> 00:39:06,280 Speaker 1: is a lot of different issues that you can become 731 00:39:06,360 --> 00:39:09,640 Speaker 1: focused on or you know, build your career on. You 732 00:39:09,680 --> 00:39:11,960 Speaker 1: just seem to know a lot about Governor Phipps. Yes, yeah, 733 00:39:12,080 --> 00:39:14,319 Speaker 1: I co authored the biography of William Phips, so I 734 00:39:14,360 --> 00:39:17,200 Speaker 1: probably no more minut show than just about anybody except 735 00:39:17,239 --> 00:39:19,600 Speaker 1: maybe my co author at the wonderful John Reid. Somebody 736 00:39:19,640 --> 00:39:21,880 Speaker 1: has to though, right, yes, exactly, can you give us 737 00:39:21,880 --> 00:39:24,680 Speaker 1: a short account of the Phipps led raid in six 738 00:39:25,040 --> 00:39:28,560 Speaker 1: nine and then how that set the station? So um, 739 00:39:28,719 --> 00:39:33,120 Speaker 1: Phipps leads these two failed military expeditions in six Um 740 00:39:33,160 --> 00:39:36,320 Speaker 1: he comes back, uh, comes back to the colony, the 741 00:39:36,320 --> 00:39:38,280 Speaker 1: first American to be united by the King of England. 742 00:39:38,880 --> 00:39:42,880 Speaker 1: No political experience whatsoever. He's a sort of a ship's captain, 743 00:39:43,000 --> 00:39:46,080 Speaker 1: sort of uh, you know, Tar Paul and kind of 744 00:39:46,200 --> 00:39:49,520 Speaker 1: fellow sea dog. But somehow he gets the authority to 745 00:39:49,600 --> 00:39:53,360 Speaker 1: lead to expeditions against to try to turn the tables 746 00:39:53,360 --> 00:39:55,920 Speaker 1: in this war. The first one against a Katie works 747 00:39:55,960 --> 00:39:59,640 Speaker 1: reasonably well, so much so unfortunately that they say that 748 00:39:59,680 --> 00:40:01,840 Speaker 1: works so well. Rather than like four or five ships, 749 00:40:02,040 --> 00:40:04,080 Speaker 1: Let's give you a couple of thousand men and like 750 00:40:04,160 --> 00:40:06,759 Speaker 1: thirty ships, and you're gonna go invade Canada and make it, 751 00:40:06,920 --> 00:40:11,520 Speaker 1: make it an English colony. Um, sounds good in theory. Uh. 752 00:40:11,560 --> 00:40:13,719 Speaker 1: And this takes place, and they lead in the fall 753 00:40:13,800 --> 00:40:17,719 Speaker 1: of s but for for numerous reasons, a bad weather, 754 00:40:17,840 --> 00:40:23,200 Speaker 1: poor planning, um. Frankly, the fortifications of Quebec. It fails disastrously, 755 00:40:23,719 --> 00:40:27,359 Speaker 1: and um they lose hundreds of men. They bring back 756 00:40:27,400 --> 00:40:30,760 Speaker 1: smallpox with them into the harbor. When they arrive, they 757 00:40:30,840 --> 00:40:33,640 Speaker 1: talk about the dead being stacked frozen dead being stacked 758 00:40:33,680 --> 00:40:36,680 Speaker 1: on the ships like cordwood, and they lose hundreds of people. 759 00:40:37,120 --> 00:40:40,600 Speaker 1: It almost cost Phips his subsequent military career, but again 760 00:40:40,640 --> 00:40:43,560 Speaker 1: it was it was. It was as major sort of 761 00:40:44,120 --> 00:40:47,440 Speaker 1: blow against the colony. It created financial disaster. It's the 762 00:40:47,480 --> 00:40:50,480 Speaker 1: first time that any colony ever had to create paper money. 763 00:40:50,880 --> 00:40:54,400 Speaker 1: It pretty much destroyed the Massachusetts economy. And and and 764 00:40:54,520 --> 00:40:58,000 Speaker 1: it was one of those preconditions again that created uh 765 00:40:58,080 --> 00:41:01,680 Speaker 1: that sort of that that that that called political economic 766 00:41:01,680 --> 00:41:05,920 Speaker 1: military disaster that only got worse his time progressed. So 767 00:41:05,960 --> 00:41:08,600 Speaker 1: when he arrives in mass Chewst's as the governor, what 768 00:41:08,640 --> 00:41:10,880 Speaker 1: would his priorities have been. I mean it sounds I 769 00:41:10,920 --> 00:41:12,520 Speaker 1: get a lot of clean up to do. Well, you know, 770 00:41:12,560 --> 00:41:14,600 Speaker 1: my my personal my that's that's true. I think my 771 00:41:14,600 --> 00:41:16,920 Speaker 1: personal feeling is as I said about William Pipps is 772 00:41:16,920 --> 00:41:19,560 Speaker 1: is this is a guy that has he's he's has 773 00:41:19,560 --> 00:41:22,520 Speaker 1: no political experience whatsoever. He's pretty good at commanding a ship. 774 00:41:22,960 --> 00:41:25,800 Speaker 1: But he's one of these like fortune seekers. And frankly 775 00:41:26,120 --> 00:41:27,880 Speaker 1: one if one of his big personal goals would have 776 00:41:27,920 --> 00:41:31,520 Speaker 1: been to make as much money off the office as possible. Um. 777 00:41:31,000 --> 00:41:36,280 Speaker 1: And he's he's all about personal uh personal profit and 778 00:41:36,520 --> 00:41:39,440 Speaker 1: uh an advancement and uh if you can cut a 779 00:41:39,480 --> 00:41:41,400 Speaker 1: side deal, he can. When he goes to make a 780 00:41:41,440 --> 00:41:44,040 Speaker 1: treaty with the Native Americans up at Pemaquid the end 781 00:41:44,040 --> 00:41:46,560 Speaker 1: of the war, UM, he also manages to get the 782 00:41:46,680 --> 00:41:49,800 Speaker 1: leading stage him of the of the of Maine Madakawando 783 00:41:50,080 --> 00:41:52,920 Speaker 1: to deed him several thousand acres of mainland as a 784 00:41:52,920 --> 00:41:55,640 Speaker 1: part of the treaty. So so when you asked me 785 00:41:55,719 --> 00:41:57,960 Speaker 1: what his priorities were, I'm sorry if I'm a little 786 00:41:58,440 --> 00:42:01,960 Speaker 1: um skeptical. I mean, clearly, here's a guy who's dropped 787 00:42:01,960 --> 00:42:05,040 Speaker 1: into a situation. When he arrives, the jails are already 788 00:42:05,120 --> 00:42:08,960 Speaker 1: overflowing with with people accused of witchcraft. Now back up 789 00:42:08,960 --> 00:42:12,879 Speaker 1: a bit and realize that the afflictions in Salem really 790 00:42:12,920 --> 00:42:18,320 Speaker 1: start to take off back in January about the time 791 00:42:18,560 --> 00:42:20,960 Speaker 1: that Salem village here's on the same day of two 792 00:42:21,200 --> 00:42:25,040 Speaker 1: horrible things, and one is the destruction of York, Maine 793 00:42:25,040 --> 00:42:27,759 Speaker 1: in array and the death of the Puritan minister at 794 00:42:27,760 --> 00:42:29,919 Speaker 1: the hands of the Native Americans. And about the same 795 00:42:29,960 --> 00:42:31,719 Speaker 1: time they learned that Governor Phipps is going to be 796 00:42:31,760 --> 00:42:34,640 Speaker 1: arriving with a new charter. This this guy who had 797 00:42:34,640 --> 00:42:38,200 Speaker 1: been a military disaster, who only had recently become a 798 00:42:38,200 --> 00:42:41,080 Speaker 1: Puritan enjoined the Mathers Church. So people are a little 799 00:42:41,200 --> 00:42:45,040 Speaker 1: questioning about, you know. So you know, let's see people 800 00:42:45,040 --> 00:42:47,399 Speaker 1: who are rags to richest kind of guy, high risk, 801 00:42:47,520 --> 00:42:50,720 Speaker 1: high reward um who have only had a late conversion 802 00:42:50,719 --> 00:42:53,560 Speaker 1: to their political cause. Um, who were known for their 803 00:42:53,560 --> 00:42:57,879 Speaker 1: course vulgar language. Um. You know, sometimes those people don't 804 00:42:57,920 --> 00:43:01,120 Speaker 1: do really good as governors, as leaders of our nation, 805 00:43:01,200 --> 00:43:04,120 Speaker 1: of our state. Um. And and Phips I think was 806 00:43:04,120 --> 00:43:09,000 Speaker 1: fairly clearly almost immediately out of his depth, right he Um, 807 00:43:09,040 --> 00:43:11,600 Speaker 1: he didn't have that experience. He had never served as 808 00:43:11,640 --> 00:43:13,879 Speaker 1: a member of the General Court. He was a boy 809 00:43:13,920 --> 00:43:16,640 Speaker 1: from Maine, um, which was a kind of an ultimate 810 00:43:16,719 --> 00:43:20,000 Speaker 1: kind of outsider, and people kind of questioned who he 811 00:43:20,160 --> 00:43:23,320 Speaker 1: was and what he was doing here. And Um, I 812 00:43:23,680 --> 00:43:26,640 Speaker 1: think he also too had UM. I think one of 813 00:43:26,640 --> 00:43:28,120 Speaker 1: the things he wanted. One of his key goals here 814 00:43:28,160 --> 00:43:29,440 Speaker 1: was to make sure that he was wife for an 815 00:43:29,440 --> 00:43:33,480 Speaker 1: accused of witchcraft, because in many ways they fit uh 816 00:43:33,600 --> 00:43:36,239 Speaker 1: to a t what people thought, which is might be 817 00:43:36,680 --> 00:43:39,440 Speaker 1: he had made his fortune as a treasure hunter. Treasures 818 00:43:39,480 --> 00:43:43,360 Speaker 1: are traditionally guarded by demons that you have to charm 819 00:43:43,400 --> 00:43:47,640 Speaker 1: and you also uh and you also also too to 820 00:43:47,800 --> 00:43:50,279 Speaker 1: find a treasure, you you have to use divination to 821 00:43:50,320 --> 00:43:52,920 Speaker 1: try to locate it, which again, you know, things like 822 00:43:53,080 --> 00:43:56,440 Speaker 1: fortune telling. He'd had his fortune told, so that's kind 823 00:43:56,440 --> 00:44:00,760 Speaker 1: of questionable. Meanwhile, his wife is barren. They have no children, 824 00:44:01,120 --> 00:44:05,160 Speaker 1: which is are considered to be barren childless right um 825 00:44:05,280 --> 00:44:07,600 Speaker 1: she had had a relative up in Maine who had 826 00:44:07,600 --> 00:44:11,560 Speaker 1: been accused of witchcraft several decades earlier, and instead of 827 00:44:11,600 --> 00:44:16,040 Speaker 1: having natural children in sixteen nine two. Their household consists 828 00:44:16,080 --> 00:44:19,800 Speaker 1: of Sir William Phipps, Lady Mary Phipps, and their servants 829 00:44:20,040 --> 00:44:24,560 Speaker 1: consisting of yes, a slave probably from from the Caribbean 830 00:44:25,040 --> 00:44:30,560 Speaker 1: um and also a Native American girl who fhips from Maine, 831 00:44:30,600 --> 00:44:35,680 Speaker 1: who Phips had taken captive on his raid in a 832 00:44:35,760 --> 00:44:39,200 Speaker 1: Kadian sixteen ninety who was serving really kind of as 833 00:44:39,200 --> 00:44:42,200 Speaker 1: a prisoner of war slash servant, who was the daughter 834 00:44:42,600 --> 00:44:44,879 Speaker 1: of that by the way, that Indian statium she bought 835 00:44:44,880 --> 00:44:48,360 Speaker 1: he bought the land from um and also a French nobleman. 836 00:44:48,520 --> 00:44:51,200 Speaker 1: Was was the granddaughter of a French nobleman. So she 837 00:44:51,239 --> 00:44:54,440 Speaker 1: would have been half Native American, half French, all Catholic. 838 00:44:54,840 --> 00:44:57,640 Speaker 1: And so you have these these sort of people as 839 00:44:57,880 --> 00:45:01,080 Speaker 1: as and think of this as your phone children in 840 00:45:01,120 --> 00:45:05,040 Speaker 1: this ungodly household. So to me, you know, it's it's 841 00:45:05,080 --> 00:45:07,839 Speaker 1: it's me. It's it's really remarkable that that Lady Mary 842 00:45:07,840 --> 00:45:11,800 Speaker 1: Phipps isn't accused of witchcraft until the fall, until October 843 00:45:11,880 --> 00:45:14,839 Speaker 1: six and as soon as that happens, Sir William brings 844 00:45:14,840 --> 00:45:16,600 Speaker 1: it to an end. And I think that's one of 845 00:45:16,600 --> 00:45:19,960 Speaker 1: his key factors throughout the trials is I think he 846 00:45:20,040 --> 00:45:23,239 Speaker 1: wanted to be very hard on you know, it's like, 847 00:45:23,360 --> 00:45:24,680 Speaker 1: you don't have to be soft on crime if you're 848 00:45:24,680 --> 00:45:27,520 Speaker 1: a politician. Right in sixteen in Nies, you don't want 849 00:45:27,520 --> 00:45:29,839 Speaker 1: to be soft on witches as a politician. It's bad 850 00:45:29,880 --> 00:45:33,040 Speaker 1: for politics. But it's particularly bad because if Phipps had 851 00:45:33,080 --> 00:45:36,120 Speaker 1: done the right, thoughtful thing, as many of the ministers, 852 00:45:36,480 --> 00:45:39,960 Speaker 1: including Cotton Mother, originally arguing for, you know, be careful 853 00:45:40,000 --> 00:45:42,640 Speaker 1: with this spectral evidence and be careful who you appointed judge, 854 00:45:43,280 --> 00:45:46,080 Speaker 1: Phipps wasn't in a political position to do that. If 855 00:45:46,120 --> 00:45:48,680 Speaker 1: he wasn't fully behind the witch trials, I think he 856 00:45:48,760 --> 00:45:51,719 Speaker 1: knew that sooner or later people were gonna start saying, so, 857 00:45:51,880 --> 00:45:55,400 Speaker 1: Sir William, why are you being so soft on witches? 858 00:45:55,960 --> 00:45:58,080 Speaker 1: Could it have anything to do with though maybe some 859 00:45:58,200 --> 00:46:01,560 Speaker 1: members of your family, how out the fact that both 860 00:46:01,600 --> 00:46:05,200 Speaker 1: you and your wife's family are we're in the parish 861 00:46:05,239 --> 00:46:09,400 Speaker 1: parishioners are Reverend George Burrows up in Falmouth Maine. You know, 862 00:46:09,520 --> 00:46:13,319 Speaker 1: George Burrows, the ringleader the the of of of of 863 00:46:13,320 --> 00:46:16,160 Speaker 1: Satan on earth here in Massachusetts. I mean that it's 864 00:46:16,160 --> 00:46:18,160 Speaker 1: just goes on and on the potential connections, and I 865 00:46:18,160 --> 00:46:22,000 Speaker 1: think I think Phipps had to be um Phipps could 866 00:46:22,000 --> 00:46:24,360 Speaker 1: not come out against the witch trials until it became 867 00:46:24,400 --> 00:46:27,279 Speaker 1: clear when his wife and the wife of Increased Mather 868 00:46:27,320 --> 00:46:31,400 Speaker 1: were accused that uh, that it was clearly not all 869 00:46:31,440 --> 00:46:33,600 Speaker 1: these people could be witches? Right? How could we have 870 00:46:33,600 --> 00:46:35,360 Speaker 1: the best people of the colony. How could we have 871 00:46:35,400 --> 00:46:37,359 Speaker 1: all of these ministers, How could we all have all 872 00:46:37,400 --> 00:46:39,480 Speaker 1: the all the relatives of ministers, How could we have 873 00:46:39,520 --> 00:46:41,880 Speaker 1: members of the General Court. These people all can't be whiches? 874 00:46:41,960 --> 00:46:44,880 Speaker 1: Can they? Are we all witches? Well? You know that's 875 00:46:44,920 --> 00:46:47,600 Speaker 1: that's one of the things that that is so intriguing 876 00:46:47,600 --> 00:46:51,640 Speaker 1: about the Salem case specifically, is that you know, you 877 00:46:51,680 --> 00:46:54,759 Speaker 1: go to England and Europe and accused, which is fit 878 00:46:54,800 --> 00:46:57,520 Speaker 1: a very particular profile. Most of the time. You know, 879 00:46:57,640 --> 00:47:00,439 Speaker 1: they are again the outsiders that we talked about some ways, 880 00:47:00,760 --> 00:47:04,080 Speaker 1: the irreligious or the poor, the outspoken. There typically women, 881 00:47:04,160 --> 00:47:06,520 Speaker 1: you know, they're the they're they're not they're the non 882 00:47:06,600 --> 00:47:10,799 Speaker 1: ruling class um, and of them seems to start that 883 00:47:10,840 --> 00:47:13,840 Speaker 1: way exactly, yes, you know you yeah, Sarah Good, Sarah Osburne, 884 00:47:13,840 --> 00:47:17,239 Speaker 1: and Tituba fit the bill right right, But that that 885 00:47:17,360 --> 00:47:20,240 Speaker 1: lens begins to whiten rather quickly. Why does it whiten? 886 00:47:20,320 --> 00:47:22,560 Speaker 1: And som yeah, I mean it's typical, right, Titeba as 887 00:47:22,560 --> 00:47:25,200 Speaker 1: the as the slave, and Sarah Osborne kind of as 888 00:47:25,239 --> 00:47:28,319 Speaker 1: the the woman of ill fame, perhaps because she married 889 00:47:28,320 --> 00:47:31,880 Speaker 1: her in denshured servant, and Sarah Good that adult, distempered, 890 00:47:31,960 --> 00:47:35,640 Speaker 1: poor woman. Traditionally, witchcraft is a working class crime, right yes, 891 00:47:35,760 --> 00:47:37,440 Speaker 1: on the other side of the tracks, and it involves 892 00:47:37,480 --> 00:47:41,759 Speaker 1: things like cursing and begging and right and right. So 893 00:47:41,800 --> 00:47:44,440 Speaker 1: what happens in Salem is again to me, it's the storm. 894 00:47:44,480 --> 00:47:47,760 Speaker 1: It's all these forces that make people realize, especially when Titeba. 895 00:47:48,280 --> 00:47:49,880 Speaker 1: Here's the thing, the same thing about Saling. There are 896 00:47:49,880 --> 00:47:52,759 Speaker 1: there are times throughout the spring and summer could have 897 00:47:52,800 --> 00:47:54,759 Speaker 1: come to an end, right right, and one of them 898 00:47:54,840 --> 00:47:57,920 Speaker 1: was even when Titeba confesses it could have come to 899 00:47:57,960 --> 00:48:01,880 Speaker 1: an end. But when she says, I saw nine names 900 00:48:02,000 --> 00:48:04,319 Speaker 1: in Satan's book that he wanted where he wanted me 901 00:48:04,360 --> 00:48:07,360 Speaker 1: to sign, that's telling you that there's there's more witches 902 00:48:07,360 --> 00:48:10,000 Speaker 1: out there, and and and it expands, right. And I 903 00:48:10,040 --> 00:48:12,680 Speaker 1: think what happens is, again, initially most of those early 904 00:48:12,760 --> 00:48:17,960 Speaker 1: people are your typical types, right, but it does start 905 00:48:18,000 --> 00:48:21,000 Speaker 1: to escalate. And I think that's evidence of the state 906 00:48:21,040 --> 00:48:23,920 Speaker 1: of Massachusetts at the time. Um. I think it's evidence 907 00:48:24,000 --> 00:48:28,920 Speaker 1: also to people being really scared and really angry, right witchcraft. 908 00:48:28,960 --> 00:48:31,439 Speaker 1: Interesting thing about witchcraft. Historically, we know from the work 909 00:48:31,440 --> 00:48:34,160 Speaker 1: of Wolfgang Barranger that two of the major factors as 910 00:48:34,160 --> 00:48:37,759 Speaker 1: to when witchcraft accusations take place anywhere is when there's 911 00:48:37,800 --> 00:48:42,440 Speaker 1: horrifically bad weather, um, catastrophically bad weather destroying crops. Right. 912 00:48:42,520 --> 00:48:45,520 Speaker 1: And in the pre industrial agrarian society, you don't have crops, 913 00:48:45,520 --> 00:48:48,040 Speaker 1: you don't eat, people die, um, and you're looking for 914 00:48:48,080 --> 00:48:50,440 Speaker 1: someone to hold responsible. Right, So what do you do. 915 00:48:50,480 --> 00:48:52,120 Speaker 1: You look to your government to help you out, to 916 00:48:52,200 --> 00:48:54,839 Speaker 1: provide assurances to take care of the problem. Well, if 917 00:48:54,840 --> 00:48:57,640 Speaker 1: you have really horribly bad weather, the worst weather the 918 00:48:57,680 --> 00:49:00,600 Speaker 1: little ice age in sixteen nineties, right, and combine that 919 00:49:00,640 --> 00:49:03,839 Speaker 1: with with weak central government, Uh, this this guy as 920 00:49:03,880 --> 00:49:06,960 Speaker 1: governor who has never been in politics before. Um, that's 921 00:49:07,000 --> 00:49:09,520 Speaker 1: when you have witchcraft outbreaks, and so I think people 922 00:49:09,600 --> 00:49:11,520 Speaker 1: began to be they didn't know who to turn to. 923 00:49:11,960 --> 00:49:14,720 Speaker 1: They were they were concerned that had an interim government 924 00:49:14,719 --> 00:49:17,360 Speaker 1: for several years. Now they have Governor Phipps. We're losing 925 00:49:17,360 --> 00:49:21,000 Speaker 1: the war. Who even the judges who are also the 926 00:49:21,080 --> 00:49:24,320 Speaker 1: leading militiamen of the colony. One of the witchcraft judges, 927 00:49:24,520 --> 00:49:27,080 Speaker 1: Wait Winthrop, is the commander in chief of the Massachusetts 928 00:49:27,160 --> 00:49:30,000 Speaker 1: Army that's leading the war. Judge Bartholomey Agadney is the 929 00:49:30,000 --> 00:49:33,280 Speaker 1: colonel of the Essex County Regiment. Um. You know, Judge 930 00:49:33,280 --> 00:49:35,719 Speaker 1: Saltonstall is another colonel in the Essex Regiment. Most of 931 00:49:35,719 --> 00:49:38,520 Speaker 1: these guys are captains or majors, are higher in the militia, 932 00:49:38,800 --> 00:49:42,040 Speaker 1: and so um, it's it's it looks like there's a 933 00:49:42,040 --> 00:49:44,440 Speaker 1: complete inability for the government to do this, which I 934 00:49:44,480 --> 00:49:46,840 Speaker 1: think in some ways why is why people begin accusing 935 00:49:47,120 --> 00:49:50,480 Speaker 1: their ministers, including their minister's wives, including the wives of 936 00:49:50,560 --> 00:49:54,160 Speaker 1: Governor um saying like, you know, you folks, maybe the 937 00:49:54,200 --> 00:49:57,400 Speaker 1: problem here, right, and so what you have is again 938 00:49:57,800 --> 00:50:01,160 Speaker 1: maybe it's that wealthy merchant Philip English, who's an outside right, 939 00:50:01,520 --> 00:50:05,000 Speaker 1: He's from the Channel Islands. His first language is French. 940 00:50:05,320 --> 00:50:09,040 Speaker 1: He comes over here as Philip langlais not Philip English. Right. 941 00:50:09,840 --> 00:50:13,120 Speaker 1: So again it's those people who have let us down, 942 00:50:13,320 --> 00:50:18,759 Speaker 1: the leaders of our community. And increasingly, unlike very very 943 00:50:19,040 --> 00:50:22,480 Speaker 1: few outbreaks everywhere of anywhere of witchcraft, it goes, it 944 00:50:22,560 --> 00:50:26,000 Speaker 1: climbs that social ladder because people are seeking answers and 945 00:50:26,040 --> 00:50:28,560 Speaker 1: they're not They're not getting them powerful stuff. Huh it 946 00:50:28,680 --> 00:50:31,880 Speaker 1: really is. Yeah? Well so, um in one of the 947 00:50:31,880 --> 00:50:34,920 Speaker 1: ways that it spreads is um, at least two covenant 948 00:50:34,960 --> 00:50:38,839 Speaker 1: members of the church in Salem Village become accused. Um. 949 00:50:39,280 --> 00:50:44,480 Speaker 1: Was there something about those people, in particular Rebecca Rebecca Nurse. Um? 950 00:50:44,520 --> 00:50:46,440 Speaker 1: I think as again as another her case is another 951 00:50:46,640 --> 00:50:50,120 Speaker 1: key turning point. Right, and why would this wonder this, 952 00:50:50,239 --> 00:50:54,120 Speaker 1: this elderly sainted grandmother who's a member of the Salem 953 00:50:54,120 --> 00:50:56,680 Speaker 1: Town Church up here in Saint why would she be 954 00:50:57,080 --> 00:51:00,600 Speaker 1: accused of witchcraft? Well again, notice she's a member of 955 00:51:00,600 --> 00:51:03,879 Speaker 1: the Salem Town Church, not the Salem Village Church. Right. 956 00:51:04,280 --> 00:51:06,920 Speaker 1: And Um, in many ways, particularly Ben Rey has has 957 00:51:06,920 --> 00:51:08,839 Speaker 1: looked at this very carefully and talks about the fact 958 00:51:08,840 --> 00:51:11,080 Speaker 1: that what you see in six nine two is members 959 00:51:11,080 --> 00:51:13,400 Speaker 1: of the Salem Village that's the church, members of Salem 960 00:51:13,480 --> 00:51:17,080 Speaker 1: Village sort of um attacking outward against anyone who's not 961 00:51:17,120 --> 00:51:19,200 Speaker 1: one of their own. And if you think about it, 962 00:51:19,200 --> 00:51:21,359 Speaker 1: one of the first people they might attack would be UM, 963 00:51:21,520 --> 00:51:26,080 Speaker 1: a woman um like Rebecca Nurse who attends Salem Village 964 00:51:26,360 --> 00:51:29,560 Speaker 1: But as a member of Salem Town Church, aren't we 965 00:51:29,600 --> 00:51:32,799 Speaker 1: good enough for you? Why not? Could it be the 966 00:51:32,840 --> 00:51:34,719 Speaker 1: fact that you and your husband a few years ago 967 00:51:35,040 --> 00:51:39,359 Speaker 1: took in quite a Quaker orphan Um when when? When? 968 00:51:39,400 --> 00:51:41,880 Speaker 1: When his parents died and they were neighbors and friends 969 00:51:41,920 --> 00:51:47,080 Speaker 1: of the Nurses. Um, Well, you know, we know your charitable, 970 00:51:47,280 --> 00:51:51,640 Speaker 1: good puritan, godly folk. But but why why? Why had 971 00:51:51,760 --> 00:51:56,800 Speaker 1: a Quaker child? Why not join Salem Village Church? Why 972 00:51:56,880 --> 00:51:59,759 Speaker 1: does your husband Francis Nurse? Why is he one of 973 00:51:59,760 --> 00:52:02,879 Speaker 1: the leads of the faction that is trying to get 974 00:52:02,960 --> 00:52:06,279 Speaker 1: Samuel Paris thrown out as minister in Salem Village. So 975 00:52:06,320 --> 00:52:08,399 Speaker 1: there with the Becca Nurse there there even though she's 976 00:52:08,520 --> 00:52:11,120 Speaker 1: a god fearing Puritan, there there are there there are 977 00:52:11,160 --> 00:52:16,480 Speaker 1: some questions about her orthodoxies and and and Martha Corey 978 00:52:16,719 --> 00:52:19,359 Speaker 1: is another example, interesting example, right, she's a member of 979 00:52:19,360 --> 00:52:22,839 Speaker 1: the Salem Village Church. Why would you go after one 980 00:52:22,840 --> 00:52:29,080 Speaker 1: of your own. Well, let's look at Mrs Corey a 981 00:52:29,120 --> 00:52:32,600 Speaker 1: bit um. She's like the trophy wife of Giles Corey. 982 00:52:33,480 --> 00:52:35,960 Speaker 1: She's she's maybe ten years younger than them, but you know, 983 00:52:36,080 --> 00:52:38,759 Speaker 1: she's she's uh, she she's like the the younger wife 984 00:52:38,800 --> 00:52:43,120 Speaker 1: who's all interested in joining the church and um at 985 00:52:43,120 --> 00:52:46,000 Speaker 1: the same time too. You know, her husband is not 986 00:52:46,040 --> 00:52:49,560 Speaker 1: the nicest guy. I mean, he had been accused of 987 00:52:49,560 --> 00:52:52,040 Speaker 1: setting for arson on his on the on the house 988 00:52:52,080 --> 00:52:56,200 Speaker 1: of his neighbor John Proctor. Uh and uh. And he 989 00:52:56,280 --> 00:53:00,480 Speaker 1: had also been convicted really of manslaughter back in the 990 00:53:00,520 --> 00:53:05,759 Speaker 1: sixteen seventies, of beating his simple minded teenage servant um 991 00:53:05,840 --> 00:53:07,720 Speaker 1: to within an inch of his life. And then the fellow, 992 00:53:07,760 --> 00:53:11,319 Speaker 1: poor fellow dies several days later, and they say, well, 993 00:53:11,360 --> 00:53:14,600 Speaker 1: it isn't exactly murder, but you know, okay, pay a fine, 994 00:53:14,800 --> 00:53:18,040 Speaker 1: pay a fine, isn't it Isn't it interesting that people 995 00:53:18,080 --> 00:53:21,040 Speaker 1: remembered this in sixteen two? Is a matter of fact, 996 00:53:21,560 --> 00:53:26,319 Speaker 1: no lesser a man than um. Thomas Putnam wrote a 997 00:53:26,400 --> 00:53:30,520 Speaker 1: letter to Judge Sewell the night before childs Corey is 998 00:53:30,560 --> 00:53:33,879 Speaker 1: pressed to death, and he says, so, just in case 999 00:53:33,920 --> 00:53:41,000 Speaker 1: you've forgotten, here's what Corey did back in the sixteen seventies, 1000 00:53:41,000 --> 00:53:43,200 Speaker 1: So you shouldn't feel too guilty if you're really trying 1001 00:53:43,200 --> 00:53:46,160 Speaker 1: to press an answer out of him. So but even 1002 00:53:46,200 --> 00:53:47,680 Speaker 1: worse about that too. To me, it all comes back 1003 00:53:47,719 --> 00:53:50,040 Speaker 1: to religion ultimately. You know, here's the thing. I think 1004 00:53:50,360 --> 00:53:52,840 Speaker 1: so many of us who studied the witch trials, myself included, 1005 00:53:52,880 --> 00:53:55,600 Speaker 1: are really kind of like social historians are cultural historians, 1006 00:53:55,600 --> 00:53:59,120 Speaker 1: and we see witchcraft as a social cultural phenomena, neighborly conflict. 1007 00:53:59,120 --> 00:54:01,720 Speaker 1: You know, my my previous book, The Devil a Great Islands, 1008 00:54:01,880 --> 00:54:04,279 Speaker 1: Witchcraft and conflict in early New England, and it's all 1009 00:54:04,280 --> 00:54:07,800 Speaker 1: about neighborliness or lack thereof, and property disputes and stuff 1010 00:54:07,840 --> 00:54:10,480 Speaker 1: like that. But you know what it's not. It's really 1011 00:54:10,520 --> 00:54:13,960 Speaker 1: about religion. Witchcraft is a religious crime and you have 1012 00:54:14,000 --> 00:54:15,959 Speaker 1: to realize that that is, that is what was behind 1013 00:54:16,000 --> 00:54:17,920 Speaker 1: most of it. So what did the Quarries do to 1014 00:54:18,040 --> 00:54:21,160 Speaker 1: upset people in Salem Village in the church? Okay, here's 1015 00:54:21,200 --> 00:54:24,560 Speaker 1: what they did. Clearly, Martha wants Chiles to become a 1016 00:54:24,640 --> 00:54:27,080 Speaker 1: church member too and be able to receive communion. Clearly, 1017 00:54:27,120 --> 00:54:29,279 Speaker 1: Martha wants Chiles to be able to join her as 1018 00:54:29,280 --> 00:54:31,880 Speaker 1: a member of the sale and village church, but his frankly, 1019 00:54:31,920 --> 00:54:36,560 Speaker 1: his reprobate past precludes that because particularly Salem Village has 1020 00:54:36,600 --> 00:54:39,600 Speaker 1: not accepted the Halfway Covenant, they still insist on full 1021 00:54:40,440 --> 00:54:42,839 Speaker 1: personal confession in front of the congregation if you want 1022 00:54:42,880 --> 00:54:45,799 Speaker 1: to be not just someone attending meeting, which everyone has 1023 00:54:45,840 --> 00:54:47,640 Speaker 1: to do, but a member of the church, a saint, 1024 00:54:47,800 --> 00:54:52,080 Speaker 1: a congregant um, because in seventeenth century church is not 1025 00:54:52,120 --> 00:54:54,239 Speaker 1: a building. It's it's the it's the it's those those 1026 00:54:54,239 --> 00:54:57,920 Speaker 1: holy true believers, right, the saints. You must stand up 1027 00:54:57,920 --> 00:55:02,279 Speaker 1: in front of the church membership up and recite all 1028 00:55:02,280 --> 00:55:05,200 Speaker 1: your sins and beg forgiveness and say that God has 1029 00:55:05,239 --> 00:55:07,000 Speaker 1: spoken to you and you know now that you were 1030 00:55:07,000 --> 00:55:09,239 Speaker 1: going to be saved, and you ask them to let 1031 00:55:09,280 --> 00:55:12,160 Speaker 1: you join them in fellowship. Right. This is a this 1032 00:55:12,239 --> 00:55:15,279 Speaker 1: is a really tough act, and it's one reason why 1033 00:55:15,320 --> 00:55:18,640 Speaker 1: many churches, including in Salem Town, why they were losing 1034 00:55:18,680 --> 00:55:22,440 Speaker 1: members and why the minister had said, now we're scrapping 1035 00:55:22,440 --> 00:55:23,880 Speaker 1: that you just come in and talk to me. And 1036 00:55:23,880 --> 00:55:25,480 Speaker 1: if I decide that you're a good person and you're 1037 00:55:25,840 --> 00:55:27,760 Speaker 1: you have a good record, here will make you a minister. 1038 00:55:27,840 --> 00:55:30,799 Speaker 1: I may make you a member of the congregation. And 1039 00:55:30,800 --> 00:55:33,200 Speaker 1: that's the Halfway Covenant, right, the Halfway Covenant, Well, Halfway 1040 00:55:33,239 --> 00:55:35,160 Speaker 1: Covenant is related to that. Halfway is another one of 1041 00:55:35,160 --> 00:55:37,880 Speaker 1: the loose things. The Halfway Covenant, uh is goes in. 1042 00:55:37,960 --> 00:55:42,040 Speaker 1: What happens is is members of the second generation forties 1043 00:55:42,040 --> 00:55:44,720 Speaker 1: and fifties, they lacked their religious fervor of their parents. 1044 00:55:44,719 --> 00:55:46,359 Speaker 1: Here's the thing, you know, in many ways, we all 1045 00:55:46,360 --> 00:55:47,879 Speaker 1: want to be like our parents. We want we want 1046 00:55:47,920 --> 00:55:51,080 Speaker 1: to to honor them, but with different people than our parents. 1047 00:55:51,320 --> 00:55:53,719 Speaker 1: And you know, if you came over, took your your 1048 00:55:53,840 --> 00:55:57,279 Speaker 1: your family across the ocean for this to worship as 1049 00:55:57,320 --> 00:56:00,040 Speaker 1: you see fit and it's everything all important to you. 1050 00:56:00,040 --> 00:56:02,520 Speaker 1: Your kids they may not quite believe that. They may 1051 00:56:02,560 --> 00:56:04,680 Speaker 1: want to they want to be like you, but they 1052 00:56:05,040 --> 00:56:07,239 Speaker 1: God hasn't spoken to them. What do you do. Well, 1053 00:56:07,400 --> 00:56:09,360 Speaker 1: unless God speaks to you and you want to confess that, 1054 00:56:09,400 --> 00:56:11,600 Speaker 1: you can't become a member of the church. So the 1055 00:56:11,600 --> 00:56:15,160 Speaker 1: Halfway Covenant allows the children of that second generation who 1056 00:56:15,160 --> 00:56:17,719 Speaker 1: have not become church members, allows their children to be 1057 00:56:17,760 --> 00:56:20,200 Speaker 1: baptized because you know what if they're not baptized and 1058 00:56:20,239 --> 00:56:24,200 Speaker 1: they die, they can't go to heaven. Right, um, they're 1059 00:56:24,200 --> 00:56:26,359 Speaker 1: going to go to hell, little babies in Hell. This 1060 00:56:26,440 --> 00:56:28,759 Speaker 1: is not good. So we'll pass the Halfway Covenant. And 1061 00:56:28,800 --> 00:56:30,880 Speaker 1: you know what we're also going to do is many 1062 00:56:31,000 --> 00:56:33,640 Speaker 1: of these churches are going to loosen up church membership. 1063 00:56:34,000 --> 00:56:37,239 Speaker 1: We're going to allow people we don't are going to 1064 00:56:37,280 --> 00:56:39,240 Speaker 1: put them through that ordeal again. Talk to the minister 1065 00:56:39,400 --> 00:56:43,240 Speaker 1: if you're good. Yes, Reverend Higginson and Salem nearly, Salem 1066 00:56:43,280 --> 00:56:46,080 Speaker 1: Town nearly left. He was willing to leave Salem if 1067 00:56:46,080 --> 00:56:48,440 Speaker 1: they didn't loosen up those rules and adopt the Halfway Covenant, 1068 00:56:48,719 --> 00:56:50,520 Speaker 1: because otherwise they were going to lose all their members, 1069 00:56:50,520 --> 00:56:54,440 Speaker 1: all right, not Salem Village, no, very strict. So interesting 1070 00:56:55,000 --> 00:56:59,880 Speaker 1: the Corries used that loophole. Giles Corey becomes a member 1071 00:56:59,880 --> 00:57:02,359 Speaker 1: of a Salem Town church and even though they say, 1072 00:57:02,400 --> 00:57:06,279 Speaker 1: basically despite his his reprobate past, he's acknowledged his past 1073 00:57:06,320 --> 00:57:08,720 Speaker 1: as a center and we accept him into into our fellowship, 1074 00:57:08,719 --> 00:57:13,520 Speaker 1: into our covenant. Right. So then imagine, here's this fellow 1075 00:57:13,560 --> 00:57:15,960 Speaker 1: who people know to be who he is, and he's 1076 00:57:16,000 --> 00:57:19,880 Speaker 1: sitting right there and and and and and um taking 1077 00:57:19,880 --> 00:57:22,080 Speaker 1: partaking of the Lord's Supper with the other members of 1078 00:57:22,080 --> 00:57:24,480 Speaker 1: the Salem Village church. Because as a member of the 1079 00:57:24,480 --> 00:57:27,280 Speaker 1: Salem Town Church. You know, like Rebecca nurs you can 1080 00:57:27,320 --> 00:57:30,760 Speaker 1: attend and you have full rights really you know, to 1081 00:57:30,760 --> 00:57:35,479 Speaker 1: to receive communion. And so really isn't that interesting? This 1082 00:57:35,480 --> 00:57:40,320 Speaker 1: this this this trophy hunting, social climbing wife who claims 1083 00:57:40,320 --> 00:57:42,800 Speaker 1: she's a gospel woman. And look how she managed to 1084 00:57:42,800 --> 00:57:50,280 Speaker 1: get her her husband, Giles Corey arsonists beater of servants. 1085 00:57:51,440 --> 00:57:54,040 Speaker 1: We've managed to get him into the church. Something's wrong here, 1086 00:57:54,320 --> 00:57:56,280 Speaker 1: so I think you know and also too, but here's 1087 00:57:56,280 --> 00:57:58,080 Speaker 1: the thing to me, what's wrong with Salem Village Church. 1088 00:57:58,200 --> 00:58:02,160 Speaker 1: When Samuel Parris arrives, we have the beginnings of the 1089 00:58:02,160 --> 00:58:04,680 Speaker 1: the the the first he's the first ordained minister in 1090 00:58:04,720 --> 00:58:07,440 Speaker 1: Salem Village, which means that he's allowed to give the sacraments, 1091 00:58:07,440 --> 00:58:11,280 Speaker 1: including the Lord's Supper, to baptize children and the first year. 1092 00:58:11,320 --> 00:58:13,320 Speaker 1: So he does a great job of using what we 1093 00:58:13,320 --> 00:58:15,520 Speaker 1: would call kind of like fire and brimstone servants. You know, 1094 00:58:15,720 --> 00:58:18,800 Speaker 1: God is coming, He's terribly angry. Time to join the church. Now, 1095 00:58:18,840 --> 00:58:21,960 Speaker 1: it's not too late. Repent your sins right or else. 1096 00:58:22,720 --> 00:58:25,120 Speaker 1: And that works for a year or so. But also too, 1097 00:58:25,200 --> 00:58:27,680 Speaker 1: I think people a lot of people who didn't accept this, 1098 00:58:28,080 --> 00:58:30,680 Speaker 1: and they look at the pure hypocrisy of this, because 1099 00:58:30,720 --> 00:58:34,600 Speaker 1: here's the point. Before Salem Village, the original members of 1100 00:58:34,640 --> 00:58:38,919 Speaker 1: the Salem Village Church that signed the the the the 1101 00:58:39,040 --> 00:58:43,360 Speaker 1: creation of the church with Paris in nine had previously 1102 00:58:43,400 --> 00:58:46,720 Speaker 1: been members of the Church Saints in other towns, other 1103 00:58:46,760 --> 00:58:49,280 Speaker 1: towns that had accepted the Halfway Covenant, that accepted these 1104 00:58:49,280 --> 00:58:52,240 Speaker 1: looser membership rules. So, UM, think about this. All of 1105 00:58:52,280 --> 00:58:53,920 Speaker 1: the all of these people had come in under these 1106 00:58:53,960 --> 00:58:57,640 Speaker 1: easier rules, by the way, as had people like Bartholemew 1107 00:58:57,720 --> 00:59:00,000 Speaker 1: Gutney and John Haythorn were two of the first member 1108 00:59:00,040 --> 00:59:03,880 Speaker 1: is to commend under Higginson's loosened rules in Salem Town. 1109 00:59:04,880 --> 00:59:06,720 Speaker 1: So I think about this. You have all of these 1110 00:59:06,760 --> 00:59:08,960 Speaker 1: people that Paris is convinced. Nope, we're not going to 1111 00:59:09,000 --> 00:59:11,000 Speaker 1: accept the Halfway Covenant. We're not going to water down 1112 00:59:11,040 --> 00:59:13,400 Speaker 1: our rules for membership. We're gonna we have to be 1113 00:59:13,440 --> 00:59:18,520 Speaker 1: true believers here, right. Imagine someone like Giles Corey saying, yeah, 1114 00:59:18,560 --> 00:59:20,760 Speaker 1: but none of you people got in that way. You 1115 00:59:20,880 --> 00:59:22,720 Speaker 1: just talk to the minister and got in. You're gonna 1116 00:59:22,760 --> 00:59:25,280 Speaker 1: make me stand up and and blurt out all my 1117 00:59:25,360 --> 00:59:29,800 Speaker 1: sins by Jay hypocrites right, interesting that a number of 1118 00:59:29,800 --> 00:59:31,880 Speaker 1: ministers and members of their family accused of witchcraft in 1119 00:59:33,200 --> 00:59:37,400 Speaker 1: guess what. All of them are members of congregations that 1120 00:59:37,480 --> 00:59:43,160 Speaker 1: have accepted the Halfway Covenant and these looser, looser membership rules. Again, 1121 00:59:44,280 --> 00:59:47,480 Speaker 1: it's it's not the economy stupid, it's religion stupid. Right, 1122 00:59:47,880 --> 00:59:49,720 Speaker 1: That's what this is. That, this is what this is 1123 00:59:49,720 --> 00:59:52,200 Speaker 1: all about. The sensation is always it takes something so 1124 00:59:52,240 --> 00:59:55,520 Speaker 1: complex like what happened in Sixto and boil it down 1125 00:59:55,520 --> 00:59:59,160 Speaker 1: into a modern day and say, well, it's it's like 1126 00:59:59,200 --> 01:00:01,720 Speaker 1: conservatives were us liberals, you know, or whatever. It is 1127 01:00:01,880 --> 01:00:03,680 Speaker 1: just they just say some moldy bread that that's what 1128 01:00:03,720 --> 01:00:07,400 Speaker 1: did it, right, exactly, that's moldy bread. But the nuances 1129 01:00:07,400 --> 01:00:10,440 Speaker 1: are where the the flavor is in the texture. I mean, 1130 01:00:10,640 --> 01:00:12,800 Speaker 1: this is well and to me, see this is the thing. Honestly, 1131 01:00:12,840 --> 01:00:15,920 Speaker 1: this is why historians love studying things like the Salem 1132 01:00:15,920 --> 01:00:19,440 Speaker 1: witch Trials and witchcraft in general, because witchcraft Salem and 1133 01:00:19,480 --> 01:00:25,640 Speaker 1: elsewhere is indicative of strains in society, you know, economic, political, religious, 1134 01:00:25,680 --> 01:00:29,480 Speaker 1: and historians are always really interested in change. And clearly 1135 01:00:30,560 --> 01:00:33,640 Speaker 1: there's so many different pieces to this puzzle, and it 1136 01:00:33,680 --> 01:00:36,439 Speaker 1: explains why there's a book written pretty much every year 1137 01:00:36,440 --> 01:00:39,000 Speaker 1: on it and why most of them are really really good, 1138 01:00:39,200 --> 01:00:42,600 Speaker 1: and they all say in some ways very different different things, right, Right, 1139 01:00:42,640 --> 01:00:44,320 Speaker 1: And then each one of them is sort of a 1140 01:00:44,320 --> 01:00:47,480 Speaker 1: reflection of the society that the writers live in. Sure, 1141 01:00:47,720 --> 01:00:50,080 Speaker 1: you know that's that's what happens with correct this is 1142 01:00:50,080 --> 01:00:51,320 Speaker 1: and you know this is the thing when this is 1143 01:00:51,360 --> 01:00:53,720 Speaker 1: what we call historiography, right, is the idea that the 1144 01:00:53,880 --> 01:00:56,400 Speaker 1: history you reflect maybe talk tells you more about your 1145 01:00:56,440 --> 01:00:59,600 Speaker 1: life and times than than anything else. Right. And so 1146 01:00:59,680 --> 01:01:02,840 Speaker 1: for ex ample, if you look at you know, Carol Carlson, 1147 01:01:03,000 --> 01:01:04,920 Speaker 1: The Devil in the Shape of a Woman, that couldn't 1148 01:01:04,960 --> 01:01:07,640 Speaker 1: have been written before the Women's Moving in America, couldn't. 1149 01:01:07,720 --> 01:01:10,000 Speaker 1: And a hundred years from now historians will look back 1150 01:01:10,000 --> 01:01:11,680 Speaker 1: and then know exactly when that book was written, just 1151 01:01:11,720 --> 01:01:14,360 Speaker 1: by the title. Right. And And to me, so I'm 1152 01:01:14,400 --> 01:01:17,040 Speaker 1: I'm clearly more of a child of Watergate. Why are 1153 01:01:17,040 --> 01:01:19,440 Speaker 1: they saying all those bad things about good President Nixon? 1154 01:01:19,480 --> 01:01:22,040 Speaker 1: I can't believe that, right, he's such a good guy 1155 01:01:22,320 --> 01:01:24,800 Speaker 1: who But clearly to me, I think the Salem witch 1156 01:01:24,800 --> 01:01:28,160 Speaker 1: Trials in many ways is symptomatic of it's are the 1157 01:01:28,240 --> 01:01:32,240 Speaker 1: first mass cover up in American history, the first complete 1158 01:01:32,240 --> 01:01:34,720 Speaker 1: failure of the government to protect the innocent. And I 1159 01:01:34,800 --> 01:01:38,720 Speaker 1: honestly think that libertarian strain that we have in our 1160 01:01:38,760 --> 01:01:41,520 Speaker 1: politics today on both the left and the right, this 1161 01:01:41,640 --> 01:01:44,520 Speaker 1: distrust of government in some ways, you know, you might 1162 01:01:44,560 --> 01:01:47,640 Speaker 1: be able to trace it back to that, because long 1163 01:01:47,680 --> 01:01:52,320 Speaker 1: before Watergate, people were worried about their government, and certainly 1164 01:01:52,360 --> 01:01:55,040 Speaker 1: in the Salem witch trials, they were very worried about 1165 01:01:55,040 --> 01:01:58,280 Speaker 1: what's going on. In the election immediately after the witch trials, 1166 01:01:58,520 --> 01:02:00,720 Speaker 1: about half the members of the legislator were turned out 1167 01:02:01,000 --> 01:02:03,880 Speaker 1: in a very traditional Puran society where they kept on 1168 01:02:04,280 --> 01:02:06,640 Speaker 1: reelecting the elders for year after year. And you know, 1169 01:02:07,280 --> 01:02:10,760 Speaker 1: things had changed and clearly um the government had made 1170 01:02:10,840 --> 01:02:13,680 Speaker 1: had made serious errors here that they weren't willing to acknowledge. 1171 01:02:14,080 --> 01:02:17,120 Speaker 1: And again I think, you know, we went that old joke, 1172 01:02:17,160 --> 01:02:18,720 Speaker 1: I'm from the government, I'm here to I'm here to 1173 01:02:18,760 --> 01:02:20,880 Speaker 1: help you, right. We think of that stuff as being 1174 01:02:20,960 --> 01:02:22,600 Speaker 1: very modern or even if it, oh well, maybe it 1175 01:02:22,600 --> 01:02:25,120 Speaker 1: goes back to the Crucible. Nope. The first the first 1176 01:02:25,520 --> 01:02:27,120 Speaker 1: book that was written sort of making fun of the 1177 01:02:27,160 --> 01:02:28,840 Speaker 1: sale in which Trials was published. What in the late 1178 01:02:28,840 --> 01:02:31,920 Speaker 1: sixteen nineties. So it's a it's a it's a it's 1179 01:02:31,920 --> 01:02:34,240 Speaker 1: a deep instinct that we have. But you're talking about 1180 01:02:34,240 --> 01:02:36,160 Speaker 1: to cover up too, and we have. Right at the 1181 01:02:36,240 --> 01:02:40,640 Speaker 1: end of it all, Phipps basically prohibiting the publication things 1182 01:02:40,640 --> 01:02:43,560 Speaker 1: that went on. Obviously he had, as he talked about 1183 01:02:43,560 --> 01:02:45,760 Speaker 1: before he had his household, you know, issues and his 1184 01:02:45,800 --> 01:02:49,680 Speaker 1: reputational issues. Did he have any particular goal in mind 1185 01:02:49,720 --> 01:02:52,360 Speaker 1: by stopping the publication? Sure? Absolutely, well. I mean it's 1186 01:02:52,360 --> 01:02:54,920 Speaker 1: pretty fascinating because he arrives in May and he's out 1187 01:02:54,920 --> 01:02:57,040 Speaker 1: of touch with the British government until October when he 1188 01:02:57,040 --> 01:02:59,200 Speaker 1: finally writes to them for the first time. And in 1189 01:02:59,280 --> 01:03:01,840 Speaker 1: that letter he said, you know, well we may have 1190 01:03:01,880 --> 01:03:06,160 Speaker 1: had a little problem with witchcraft, but not to worry. 1191 01:03:06,360 --> 01:03:08,760 Speaker 1: You know, no innocent lives were lost, and I've taken 1192 01:03:08,800 --> 01:03:10,680 Speaker 1: care of it. And by the way, if you don't 1193 01:03:10,680 --> 01:03:13,160 Speaker 1: believe me, here's a copy which he literally sends one 1194 01:03:13,160 --> 01:03:16,439 Speaker 1: of the first copies of Cotton Mather's book with that letter. 1195 01:03:16,800 --> 01:03:19,480 Speaker 1: See no innocent no more than the imminent. Cotton Mather 1196 01:03:19,560 --> 01:03:22,720 Speaker 1: says here that no innocent lives were lost. So situation normal, 1197 01:03:22,800 --> 01:03:25,320 Speaker 1: the government's in good stead. Here you can trust me 1198 01:03:25,360 --> 01:03:29,880 Speaker 1: as governor, right, um. And you know people maybe people 1199 01:03:29,880 --> 01:03:32,720 Speaker 1: may question things, and if that happens, you know, things 1200 01:03:32,800 --> 01:03:34,640 Speaker 1: might unravel a bit here. So we wouldn't want that 1201 01:03:34,680 --> 01:03:36,720 Speaker 1: to happen. And since we have the truth here from 1202 01:03:36,720 --> 01:03:39,560 Speaker 1: Cotton Mather, well you know, I've just issued this band 1203 01:03:39,600 --> 01:03:41,160 Speaker 1: saying that you know, we're not gonna have anything more 1204 01:03:41,160 --> 01:03:43,520 Speaker 1: written on it because we have the truth from Cotton Mather. 1205 01:03:43,800 --> 01:03:45,720 Speaker 1: So do we need to do anything else? And basically 1206 01:03:45,960 --> 01:03:49,880 Speaker 1: what Phipps realizes is if he doesn't put the screws 1207 01:03:49,920 --> 01:03:53,360 Speaker 1: down on complaint over the witch trials, um, it will 1208 01:03:53,480 --> 01:03:55,640 Speaker 1: it will go out of control. You know, he really 1209 01:03:55,680 --> 01:03:57,360 Speaker 1: sort of sees it breaking into this this just this 1210 01:03:57,640 --> 01:04:00,000 Speaker 1: this wildfire, and what it will do is it will 1211 01:04:00,040 --> 01:04:03,480 Speaker 1: bring down his government. Um and and if it does that, 1212 01:04:03,560 --> 01:04:06,000 Speaker 1: it really will be the end of his political life. 1213 01:04:06,320 --> 01:04:09,520 Speaker 1: And also and frankly others realized this will be the 1214 01:04:09,600 --> 01:04:12,520 Speaker 1: end of the Puritan experiment because again, going back, if 1215 01:04:12,560 --> 01:04:15,640 Speaker 1: you remember what happened before Phips and before the interim government, 1216 01:04:15,880 --> 01:04:18,120 Speaker 1: he had Governor Andrews in the Dominion of New England 1217 01:04:18,400 --> 01:04:21,640 Speaker 1: who was really um almost like a military dictator, right, 1218 01:04:21,840 --> 01:04:24,080 Speaker 1: and he was he was an Anglican with a Church 1219 01:04:24,120 --> 01:04:27,880 Speaker 1: of England, and Puritanism no longer was special. Massachusetts was 1220 01:04:27,880 --> 01:04:30,080 Speaker 1: no longer special. It was part of a super colony, 1221 01:04:30,280 --> 01:04:33,640 Speaker 1: the stretch from New Jersey to Maine. Um. And so 1222 01:04:34,440 --> 01:04:36,960 Speaker 1: they had fought hard and phips and increased. Mather had 1223 01:04:37,000 --> 01:04:39,440 Speaker 1: come back with this new charter and it wasn't perfect, 1224 01:04:39,880 --> 01:04:42,840 Speaker 1: but it was a restoration of Puritan Massachusetts. And if 1225 01:04:42,840 --> 01:04:45,760 Speaker 1: we blow it this time, it is over. We will 1226 01:04:45,800 --> 01:04:48,000 Speaker 1: just become my god, we might have Andrew's back and 1227 01:04:48,000 --> 01:04:51,080 Speaker 1: here as a military governor where he's picking people for juries, 1228 01:04:51,400 --> 01:04:54,120 Speaker 1: and he's picking people for the legislature, and we lose 1229 01:04:54,200 --> 01:04:57,160 Speaker 1: the rights of Englishmen. So he had to do everything 1230 01:04:57,200 --> 01:04:59,880 Speaker 1: he could from a personal point of view, to end 1231 01:04:59,880 --> 01:05:04,120 Speaker 1: the trials, to prevent his wife from being charged to 1232 01:05:04,120 --> 01:05:06,360 Speaker 1: to for to not be the end of his political career, 1233 01:05:06,680 --> 01:05:10,440 Speaker 1: to to um now him being ironically, here's this guy 1234 01:05:10,480 --> 01:05:12,320 Speaker 1: who only a couple of years before become a Puritan, 1235 01:05:12,800 --> 01:05:16,400 Speaker 1: and now incredibly he's got to charge in on his 1236 01:05:16,440 --> 01:05:21,240 Speaker 1: white stallion and be the great savor of the Puritan movement, 1237 01:05:21,720 --> 01:05:24,520 Speaker 1: a guy who many people must have been shaking their 1238 01:05:24,520 --> 01:05:27,680 Speaker 1: heads saying, like, why on earth did we allow this 1239 01:05:27,720 --> 01:05:30,920 Speaker 1: guy to become governor because he's not one of us. 1240 01:05:30,960 --> 01:05:33,960 Speaker 1: And my God, look at the disasters he's creating. The 1241 01:05:34,040 --> 01:05:38,200 Speaker 1: worst gotten worse, The weather's gotten worse. Um, there are 1242 01:05:38,240 --> 01:05:41,760 Speaker 1: innocent people losing their lives. Why do we still follow 1243 01:05:41,960 --> 01:05:45,880 Speaker 1: this guy? We're still talking about two right? Well, what 1244 01:05:45,920 --> 01:05:48,760 Speaker 1: else were we talking about? Of course, I shake my 1245 01:05:48,800 --> 01:05:50,960 Speaker 1: head as you're talking about this where you have a 1246 01:05:51,000 --> 01:05:54,120 Speaker 1: particular group of religious people who feel that they're losing 1247 01:05:54,640 --> 01:05:57,760 Speaker 1: they're losing control of the community that they think they built, 1248 01:05:58,480 --> 01:06:04,200 Speaker 1: and an unqualified leader swings in and suppresses the press 1249 01:06:04,800 --> 01:06:07,440 Speaker 1: to control the message and make sure that it all 1250 01:06:07,480 --> 01:06:10,120 Speaker 1: doesn't go away. It's that that's kind of what happened 1251 01:06:10,120 --> 01:06:14,240 Speaker 1: in and now. But you know, I mean, I don't, 1252 01:06:14,640 --> 01:06:16,320 Speaker 1: I don't, I don't. I don't try to make too 1253 01:06:16,320 --> 01:06:18,600 Speaker 1: many modern day parallels because I think you can probably 1254 01:06:18,640 --> 01:06:20,960 Speaker 1: read maybe more into that than than is there. But 1255 01:06:21,360 --> 01:06:24,480 Speaker 1: what's really clear is that that, uh to me was 1256 01:06:24,520 --> 01:06:27,560 Speaker 1: that also too, is that you know, the best way 1257 01:06:27,560 --> 01:06:31,440 Speaker 1: to ensure that this sort of infamy and and and 1258 01:06:31,480 --> 01:06:33,880 Speaker 1: misstep by the government, the best way to ensure that 1259 01:06:33,880 --> 01:06:36,160 Speaker 1: people will never forget it is to try to cover 1260 01:06:36,200 --> 01:06:37,960 Speaker 1: it up, right, right. I mean, that's a lesson. We 1261 01:06:38,000 --> 01:06:39,640 Speaker 1: did learn the water gates well. And you know, so 1262 01:06:39,800 --> 01:06:43,520 Speaker 1: you mentioned cotton mother's father, Increase Mather, who was working 1263 01:06:43,640 --> 01:06:46,520 Speaker 1: with Phipps on the new Charter and and bringing all 1264 01:06:46,560 --> 01:06:50,160 Speaker 1: of that back. But it seems at the end Increase 1265 01:06:50,520 --> 01:06:54,400 Speaker 1: sort of takes a turn away from Phipps and his son. 1266 01:06:55,120 --> 01:06:58,640 Speaker 1: So here's the thing. Um, yeah, Increased matter is really 1267 01:06:58,680 --> 01:07:01,560 Speaker 1: is the most influential minister are in the colony. And 1268 01:07:01,600 --> 01:07:03,760 Speaker 1: of course actually and then and his wife is the 1269 01:07:03,840 --> 01:07:06,880 Speaker 1: daughter of John Cotton, the great Puritan minister as well too, 1270 01:07:07,040 --> 01:07:09,080 Speaker 1: So it is like the super family of Puritanism. And 1271 01:07:09,080 --> 01:07:13,040 Speaker 1: they have Cotton and other sons and nephews and brothers 1272 01:07:13,040 --> 01:07:14,720 Speaker 1: and all these people who are at the sort of 1273 01:07:14,720 --> 01:07:17,800 Speaker 1: the center of the Puritan movement in Massachusetts. And Increases 1274 01:07:17,840 --> 01:07:20,520 Speaker 1: the president of Harvard College. So yeah, um, he is 1275 01:07:20,720 --> 01:07:23,680 Speaker 1: Mr Puritan right. Um. And then he's but he also 1276 01:07:23,720 --> 01:07:26,440 Speaker 1: too begins to realize in the late summer of sixwo 1277 01:07:26,680 --> 01:07:29,840 Speaker 1: that something's gone terribly wrong here. And um, but he 1278 01:07:29,880 --> 01:07:31,680 Speaker 1: has to finesse this right because on the one hand, 1279 01:07:32,080 --> 01:07:35,240 Speaker 1: uh Stowton and Phipps have asked his son Cotton to 1280 01:07:35,360 --> 01:07:39,320 Speaker 1: write this book essentially to defend the colony. And here 1281 01:07:39,360 --> 01:07:41,280 Speaker 1: to me, you know, I think Cotton I'm not a 1282 01:07:41,280 --> 01:07:43,280 Speaker 1: big Cotton Mather fan, but I think he gets a 1283 01:07:43,320 --> 01:07:47,240 Speaker 1: lot of bad press because he's um. He really takes 1284 01:07:47,240 --> 01:07:48,800 Speaker 1: a bullet for the team when he writes when he 1285 01:07:48,840 --> 01:07:52,880 Speaker 1: writes Wonders of the Invisible invisible world, right, which is 1286 01:07:52,680 --> 01:07:56,240 Speaker 1: a is a it's it's so such an obvious sham 1287 01:07:56,360 --> 01:07:58,840 Speaker 1: uh is. He would have been a spend doctor today, right, um. 1288 01:07:58,880 --> 01:08:01,200 Speaker 1: And and he described it's some long term as ap puritan. 1289 01:08:01,480 --> 01:08:04,000 Speaker 1: So but in the meantime here's his father having to 1290 01:08:04,080 --> 01:08:06,320 Speaker 1: try to so he can mothers doing duty, trying to 1291 01:08:06,320 --> 01:08:09,240 Speaker 1: save the colony, trying to save Puritanism. But his father realizes, 1292 01:08:09,280 --> 01:08:11,720 Speaker 1: we need to save lives, and how do I do 1293 01:08:11,760 --> 01:08:15,440 Speaker 1: that without without going and get being seen as flitting 1294 01:08:15,440 --> 01:08:18,439 Speaker 1: with my son, And he sort of pulls his political 1295 01:08:18,479 --> 01:08:21,400 Speaker 1: finesse where he also he actually you know, he writes 1296 01:08:21,479 --> 01:08:23,679 Speaker 1: the sort of the preface to his his son's books, 1297 01:08:23,720 --> 01:08:25,640 Speaker 1: or of saying, yep, good stuff, your son, keep up 1298 01:08:25,680 --> 01:08:29,719 Speaker 1: the good work. But then if you read his book, 1299 01:08:30,120 --> 01:08:35,040 Speaker 1: his it's going like better that a hundred witches should 1300 01:08:35,120 --> 01:08:40,000 Speaker 1: live than one innocent person die. Right, So it's clear 1301 01:08:40,080 --> 01:08:44,040 Speaker 1: that we need to do something about this. And I 1302 01:08:44,040 --> 01:08:46,719 Speaker 1: think most of us his historians have a hard time 1303 01:08:47,200 --> 01:08:50,880 Speaker 1: reconciling that. But I think it's easy to think of 1304 01:08:50,960 --> 01:08:55,200 Speaker 1: increased Mather the politician, but also increased Mather the father, right, 1305 01:08:55,360 --> 01:08:57,600 Speaker 1: you know, um, and that he had a very he 1306 01:08:57,640 --> 01:09:00,360 Speaker 1: had ad is a is a very thin kneele to 1307 01:09:00,760 --> 01:09:02,880 Speaker 1: sort of thread there to sort of say, yeah, I 1308 01:09:02,960 --> 01:09:06,760 Speaker 1: agree with your Cotton, but I think we need to 1309 01:09:06,760 --> 01:09:09,040 Speaker 1: put the brakes on this right. And in fact, actually 1310 01:09:09,080 --> 01:09:11,920 Speaker 1: Cotton Mather had previously done that in the in the 1311 01:09:12,000 --> 01:09:13,800 Speaker 1: earlier in the summer, you know, when you wrote the 1312 01:09:13,840 --> 01:09:16,080 Speaker 1: return of the Ministers when they said, when the judges 1313 01:09:16,120 --> 01:09:19,000 Speaker 1: are going like so the spectral evidence, what do you think? 1314 01:09:19,600 --> 01:09:23,000 Speaker 1: And Cotton Mather is the junior partner of the Mather firm, 1315 01:09:23,040 --> 01:09:28,800 Speaker 1: you know, very deferential. Oh yes, thank you for asking. 1316 01:09:28,960 --> 01:09:32,040 Speaker 1: And here's the reply of the ministers. And we think 1317 01:09:32,360 --> 01:09:34,559 Speaker 1: that you need to be really careful when you use 1318 01:09:34,640 --> 01:09:39,000 Speaker 1: spectral evidence, right, because you need other evidence. And clearly 1319 01:09:39,439 --> 01:09:43,880 Speaker 1: it's it's uh, it's it's dicey stuff. But you know what, 1320 01:09:44,200 --> 01:09:46,120 Speaker 1: you guys are doing a great job because you're the 1321 01:09:46,200 --> 01:09:48,880 Speaker 1: leaders of our colony and we respect and revere you 1322 01:09:48,920 --> 01:09:52,559 Speaker 1: and just keep up the good work. Again, it depends 1323 01:09:52,600 --> 01:09:55,919 Speaker 1: on how you want to read that, just like increasing 1324 01:09:55,960 --> 01:09:58,720 Speaker 1: Cotton Mathers. So they're they're very political animals and they're 1325 01:09:58,720 --> 01:10:00,720 Speaker 1: trying to be deferential, but they're all trying to go like, 1326 01:10:01,200 --> 01:10:03,320 Speaker 1: do you really know what you're doing here? And watch 1327 01:10:03,320 --> 01:10:05,519 Speaker 1: out right? Yeah? Yeah, So, I mean I think and 1328 01:10:05,560 --> 01:10:07,519 Speaker 1: I think Mather, Increased Mather does a good job of 1329 01:10:07,560 --> 01:10:09,720 Speaker 1: doing that. And also too, I think really he's the one. 1330 01:10:09,760 --> 01:10:12,639 Speaker 1: I don't think Phips splits with him. I think Phipps, 1331 01:10:12,920 --> 01:10:15,839 Speaker 1: I think it's increased Mather. Once he turns that clearly, 1332 01:10:15,840 --> 01:10:18,360 Speaker 1: Phipps says okay, and then again to yeah again. By 1333 01:10:18,360 --> 01:10:20,519 Speaker 1: the way, Phips comes back from trying to defend the 1334 01:10:20,520 --> 01:10:23,840 Speaker 1: frontier in Maine and he writes this letter, and of 1335 01:10:23,840 --> 01:10:25,639 Speaker 1: course in the letter he openly lies, and he says, 1336 01:10:25,920 --> 01:10:27,519 Speaker 1: you know, I came back and I left Stowton in 1337 01:10:27,600 --> 01:10:29,400 Speaker 1: charge and things just all these people accused of which 1338 01:10:29,439 --> 01:10:31,000 Speaker 1: is and I never you know, why I let him 1339 01:10:31,040 --> 01:10:33,120 Speaker 1: do this, and it's all his fault. Phipps had been 1340 01:10:33,120 --> 01:10:34,880 Speaker 1: in mass Chuses almost that whole time, right, he could 1341 01:10:34,880 --> 01:10:36,639 Speaker 1: have put a stop to it, but again it wasn't 1342 01:10:36,680 --> 01:10:39,280 Speaker 1: political expedient. But when he comes back and there're more 1343 01:10:39,280 --> 01:10:41,760 Speaker 1: people in jail and he hears an increase, Mather's wife 1344 01:10:41,760 --> 01:10:44,240 Speaker 1: and his wife have been accused. Okay, we're putting the 1345 01:10:44,240 --> 01:10:47,360 Speaker 1: brakes on this immediately, your right increase. It's coming to 1346 01:10:47,360 --> 01:10:50,519 Speaker 1: a halt. The court of Oyer and Terminter must fall. Yeah, 1347 01:10:50,680 --> 01:10:54,320 Speaker 1: you mentioned Stoughton. Um, he's one of my least favorite people. 1348 01:10:54,760 --> 01:10:56,680 Speaker 1: They're just when he starting there a lot you know, 1349 01:10:56,760 --> 01:10:58,519 Speaker 1: in the in the story, he seems to be the 1350 01:10:58,560 --> 01:11:01,240 Speaker 1: most absence of it all. But but he's he's the 1351 01:11:01,360 --> 01:11:04,320 Speaker 1: leader of these judges, right, He's William. William Stonton is 1352 01:11:04,360 --> 01:11:06,840 Speaker 1: a ghost character, a friend of mine. I've had people 1353 01:11:06,840 --> 01:11:08,000 Speaker 1: in the past try to do this, and your friends 1354 01:11:08,000 --> 01:11:09,600 Speaker 1: trying to do it now, to try to write a 1355 01:11:09,600 --> 01:11:12,280 Speaker 1: biography of Stoughton. And I'm not sure if it's possible, 1356 01:11:12,600 --> 01:11:14,760 Speaker 1: because I believe me, it was bad enough with Phips, 1357 01:11:14,760 --> 01:11:17,000 Speaker 1: who was an illiterate governor who left almost no records. 1358 01:11:17,240 --> 01:11:22,840 Speaker 1: But Stoughton, there's no family papers, there's no nothing. So uh, 1359 01:11:23,080 --> 01:11:25,560 Speaker 1: he's he. And what's amazing to me about Stoonton is 1360 01:11:25,600 --> 01:11:27,800 Speaker 1: again too, I think here's the problem. I really think 1361 01:11:27,800 --> 01:11:31,200 Speaker 1: the judges like Stoton were filled with incredible self loathing. Um. 1362 01:11:31,280 --> 01:11:33,640 Speaker 1: And Stoton had been a minister, right, he had been 1363 01:11:33,680 --> 01:11:36,720 Speaker 1: a minister in England back and he's basically kicked out 1364 01:11:36,960 --> 01:11:39,080 Speaker 1: after with the Restoration because he was a Puritan. And 1365 01:11:39,080 --> 01:11:41,160 Speaker 1: he comes back to New England and he comes and 1366 01:11:41,200 --> 01:11:43,479 Speaker 1: he comes back and he's he's hailed as as this 1367 01:11:43,520 --> 01:11:47,080 Speaker 1: wonderful leading figure of the colony. And um, he's asked 1368 01:11:47,080 --> 01:11:50,000 Speaker 1: by several towns, please be our minister, please, please please 1369 01:11:50,040 --> 01:11:52,360 Speaker 1: be our minister. And he says, no, I'm not worthy. 1370 01:11:52,600 --> 01:11:55,639 Speaker 1: I'm not worthy of being a minister. Um, I can't 1371 01:11:55,680 --> 01:11:59,360 Speaker 1: do it. And I think again, I I think, Um, 1372 01:11:59,400 --> 01:12:03,680 Speaker 1: I think there's these guys are have troubled souls. Uh 1373 01:12:03,880 --> 01:12:06,200 Speaker 1: so uh Samuel sewell as well too. You can see 1374 01:12:06,200 --> 01:12:08,120 Speaker 1: his struggles. He doesn't want to become a member of 1375 01:12:08,120 --> 01:12:10,120 Speaker 1: the church because it doesn't think he's worthy. My god, 1376 01:12:10,360 --> 01:12:13,000 Speaker 1: the guy was brilliant student at Harvard. He could recite 1377 01:12:13,040 --> 01:12:17,839 Speaker 1: the Bible backwards and forwards, read his his two volume diary, 1378 01:12:17,920 --> 01:12:20,080 Speaker 1: and you know he's an incredibly devout Puritan. But he 1379 01:12:20,120 --> 01:12:22,240 Speaker 1: thinks he's not worthy. And I think Stowton has some 1380 01:12:22,320 --> 01:12:25,240 Speaker 1: of that sort of concerns about his his soul and 1381 01:12:25,280 --> 01:12:28,680 Speaker 1: his worthiness. Um, interesting guy, he never marries. This is 1382 01:12:28,680 --> 01:12:31,679 Speaker 1: almost unheard of in mass Chuset in the seventeenth century. Um, 1383 01:12:31,960 --> 01:12:34,400 Speaker 1: does that mean he is he committing sin? Is he is? 1384 01:12:34,640 --> 01:12:36,960 Speaker 1: He is he fornicating with the maids and he's self 1385 01:12:37,000 --> 01:12:40,120 Speaker 1: loathing because of that? Or we don't. We don't know 1386 01:12:41,160 --> 01:12:44,200 Speaker 1: what it was, but I think uh so. Instead he 1387 01:12:44,360 --> 01:12:47,200 Speaker 1: is driven. He has absolutely driven to stamp out which 1388 01:12:47,240 --> 01:12:49,640 Speaker 1: is right. He sees that is the big sin. And 1389 01:12:49,680 --> 01:12:51,479 Speaker 1: you're right. He is the leader of the course. But 1390 01:12:51,560 --> 01:12:54,080 Speaker 1: he doesn't show up much, does he. He doesn't lead 1391 01:12:54,280 --> 01:12:56,360 Speaker 1: much of a paper trail at all, even as his 1392 01:12:56,479 --> 01:13:00,000 Speaker 1: acting governor. But it's clear that the judges are deferential 1393 01:13:00,080 --> 01:13:03,360 Speaker 1: to him. And when he sets the stage and and 1394 01:13:03,520 --> 01:13:07,280 Speaker 1: and when he you know, interrogates the jury with the 1395 01:13:07,320 --> 01:13:10,599 Speaker 1: Rebecca nurse and says, you didn't did you hear her 1396 01:13:10,640 --> 01:13:13,679 Speaker 1: answer to this? Why didn't you ask her to follow 1397 01:13:13,800 --> 01:13:16,840 Speaker 1: up on this? Maybe you should think about this verdict again. 1398 01:13:17,040 --> 01:13:19,120 Speaker 1: They're all taking their cues from Stowton, and to me, 1399 01:13:19,200 --> 01:13:21,240 Speaker 1: that's part of the tragedy. Two. Here's all of these judges, 1400 01:13:21,240 --> 01:13:24,839 Speaker 1: for the most part aside from really from from from Stoughton, 1401 01:13:25,080 --> 01:13:27,519 Speaker 1: and from Seoul. These guys are all related by marriage. 1402 01:13:27,520 --> 01:13:29,960 Speaker 1: They're all in laws of each other, They're all part 1403 01:13:29,960 --> 01:13:32,160 Speaker 1: of this wealthy merchant class. They all think like each other, 1404 01:13:32,560 --> 01:13:34,800 Speaker 1: and once Stowton takes the lead, they all fall into place. 1405 01:13:35,200 --> 01:13:36,679 Speaker 1: And then and the only one I really always wondered 1406 01:13:36,680 --> 01:13:39,439 Speaker 1: about is Samuel Seul, right, because here's this really thinking 1407 01:13:39,439 --> 01:13:42,000 Speaker 1: guy who's the youngest, who spends much of his his 1408 01:13:42,080 --> 01:13:44,679 Speaker 1: remaining years later on in life of trying to atone 1409 01:13:44,680 --> 01:13:47,080 Speaker 1: for the sin of the Salem witch trials and passing 1410 01:13:47,120 --> 01:13:49,880 Speaker 1: that that duty onto his sons after he dies. And 1411 01:13:49,920 --> 01:13:51,400 Speaker 1: then I the answer to that though is two again. 1412 01:13:51,400 --> 01:13:55,040 Speaker 1: It's family because his wife is Samuel Parris's first cousin. 1413 01:13:57,280 --> 01:13:59,320 Speaker 1: So imagine that so and they known each They would 1414 01:13:59,320 --> 01:14:00,840 Speaker 1: have known each other in Boston. One of the few 1415 01:14:00,880 --> 01:14:03,439 Speaker 1: people that when when Paris moves in from Barbados, that 1416 01:14:03,439 --> 01:14:05,680 Speaker 1: he would have known would have been the Seuel family, right, 1417 01:14:06,200 --> 01:14:09,120 Speaker 1: And so imagine when when when Samuel shows up as 1418 01:14:09,160 --> 01:14:11,639 Speaker 1: one of the witchcraft judges, and smart guy, he's probably saying, 1419 01:14:11,800 --> 01:14:13,920 Speaker 1: I don't know about this, right, what's going on here? 1420 01:14:14,479 --> 01:14:17,000 Speaker 1: But imagine when he when he meets Samuel Paris, and 1421 01:14:17,040 --> 01:14:20,760 Speaker 1: he's saying, you know, cousin, cousin, thank god you're here, right, 1422 01:14:20,800 --> 01:14:22,720 Speaker 1: I mean, we don't I'm imagining this. We don't know, 1423 01:14:22,800 --> 01:14:25,519 Speaker 1: but thank god you're here. Look look at my daughter, 1424 01:14:25,720 --> 01:14:28,040 Speaker 1: Look at look at our daughter, look at our niece. 1425 01:14:29,000 --> 01:14:31,799 Speaker 1: Thank god you were here. Help them find the witches 1426 01:14:32,040 --> 01:14:35,280 Speaker 1: into the torments. And you know, Samuel sewel this this 1427 01:14:36,080 --> 01:14:40,960 Speaker 1: very thoughtful, deliberative guy. I'm looking after my family. That 1428 01:14:41,080 --> 01:14:45,160 Speaker 1: comes first. I believe. I believe my cousin, right, I mean, 1429 01:14:45,160 --> 01:14:48,080 Speaker 1: it was his wife's cousin. It's cousin, it's family. I 1430 01:14:48,160 --> 01:14:51,120 Speaker 1: must help the Paris family. And it's only I think, 1431 01:14:51,800 --> 01:14:54,800 Speaker 1: too late that that Seuel realizes that they've all been 1432 01:14:54,840 --> 01:14:57,960 Speaker 1: just just been been taken in by by this, by 1433 01:14:57,960 --> 01:14:59,800 Speaker 1: this incredible storm. You know, I don't. I don't see 1434 01:15:00,040 --> 01:15:02,360 Speaker 1: us as being evil either. I think he was. He was. 1435 01:15:02,439 --> 01:15:05,240 Speaker 1: He was a genuinely troubled guy. Um who was was 1436 01:15:05,479 --> 01:15:08,200 Speaker 1: head demons of his own right. Um. I don't think 1437 01:15:08,200 --> 01:15:10,600 Speaker 1: he's trying to, you know, point the finger of accusation 1438 01:15:10,600 --> 01:15:13,519 Speaker 1: of certain people, even as political opponents. But I do 1439 01:15:13,600 --> 01:15:16,720 Speaker 1: think he's a guy who sees his political opponents as 1440 01:15:16,720 --> 01:15:19,639 Speaker 1: being inspired by Satan. Right well, and at the same time, 1441 01:15:20,720 --> 01:15:23,360 Speaker 1: this all begins in his house, correct, you know, and 1442 01:15:23,439 --> 01:15:26,559 Speaker 1: so that he must have felt this, this overwhelming sense 1443 01:15:26,600 --> 01:15:28,880 Speaker 1: of I mean, as a minister, he would have had 1444 01:15:28,880 --> 01:15:31,439 Speaker 1: a j as a minister. But then but then now 1445 01:15:31,520 --> 01:15:34,680 Speaker 1: it's my house, that duty is is now paramount. I 1446 01:15:34,720 --> 01:15:36,680 Speaker 1: have to correct and and it's but even too, they 1447 01:15:36,760 --> 01:15:40,320 Speaker 1: think about this. The devil only attacks people to afflix them, 1448 01:15:40,400 --> 01:15:42,439 Speaker 1: or makes or tries to get them as witches because 1449 01:15:42,479 --> 01:15:45,919 Speaker 1: of it was believed, because of some imperfection in their soul. Frankly, 1450 01:15:46,040 --> 01:15:47,800 Speaker 1: this would get to the generaho. This is why women 1451 01:15:47,800 --> 01:15:51,320 Speaker 1: were more susceptible, because they were considered the weaker vessel. 1452 01:15:52,040 --> 01:15:54,840 Speaker 1: My my, my wonderful wife and two very strong daughters 1453 01:15:54,880 --> 01:15:58,720 Speaker 1: would disagree, and so would I. But right, this is 1454 01:15:58,760 --> 01:16:03,200 Speaker 1: the time, um, and so so clearly that's you know. Um. 1455 01:16:03,200 --> 01:16:06,559 Speaker 1: When Paris's daughter and niece are the first to be afflicted, 1456 01:16:07,400 --> 01:16:10,920 Speaker 1: Paris must have been riddled with self doubt and shame. 1457 01:16:11,280 --> 01:16:14,680 Speaker 1: How could this happen to my my family? What? What 1458 01:16:14,840 --> 01:16:17,240 Speaker 1: what have I done? What have my wife and I 1459 01:16:17,360 --> 01:16:20,479 Speaker 1: done to to to to to do this? Clearly we 1460 01:16:20,560 --> 01:16:22,920 Speaker 1: must have done something wrong, right, how have we invited 1461 01:16:22,920 --> 01:16:25,960 Speaker 1: Satan into our household? And of course very quickly realized, well, 1462 01:16:26,080 --> 01:16:28,160 Speaker 1: all we didn't do it. It was it was our neighbor, 1463 01:16:28,240 --> 01:16:31,360 Speaker 1: Mrs Sibley, and uh, and she got Titaba and John 1464 01:16:31,400 --> 01:16:34,280 Speaker 1: Indian to do the counter magic and the witch's cake. 1465 01:16:34,479 --> 01:16:37,240 Speaker 1: And it's her fault. Right. The devil hath been raised, 1466 01:16:37,560 --> 01:16:40,760 Speaker 1: as Richard Trask surely showed you in that in that book. Right, 1467 01:16:40,800 --> 01:16:44,040 Speaker 1: it was very Sibley, It wasn't It wasn't my daughter, right, 1468 01:16:44,520 --> 01:16:48,240 Speaker 1: we deflect tell me about the devil in the world 1469 01:16:48,240 --> 01:16:49,840 Speaker 1: of well, I mean we have how many how many 1470 01:16:49,920 --> 01:16:52,040 Speaker 1: years do we have we have? I mean we have 1471 01:16:52,080 --> 01:16:54,240 Speaker 1: our own modern day views, you know, indpendent on what 1472 01:16:54,280 --> 01:16:56,719 Speaker 1: your religious backgrounds are as well. But but it seems 1473 01:16:56,720 --> 01:16:59,959 Speaker 1: that in Salem in six they had a very particular 1474 01:17:00,120 --> 01:17:02,360 Speaker 1: vision of the devil. Yeah. What's amazing is in the 1475 01:17:02,439 --> 01:17:04,920 Speaker 1: late seventeenth century there in Salem and elsewhere, the devil 1476 01:17:04,960 --> 01:17:08,439 Speaker 1: has this very corporeal form. I mean, you know, he he, 1477 01:17:08,439 --> 01:17:11,439 Speaker 1: he takes physical appearance. It can be a bird, it 1478 01:17:11,560 --> 01:17:14,680 Speaker 1: can be a dog, it can be the guy with 1479 01:17:14,720 --> 01:17:17,840 Speaker 1: the pointy tail right in the horns um and and 1480 01:17:17,880 --> 01:17:20,720 Speaker 1: he walks the earth. Right, He's not just he's not 1481 01:17:20,800 --> 01:17:24,080 Speaker 1: just in hell or um. He's here and he is 1482 01:17:24,160 --> 01:17:27,120 Speaker 1: he is a physical presence and that's something that is 1483 01:17:27,160 --> 01:17:29,599 Speaker 1: that is and also he wants you to sign his book. 1484 01:17:29,600 --> 01:17:31,920 Speaker 1: This thing that is very puritan, very Massachuset is a 1485 01:17:31,960 --> 01:17:34,360 Speaker 1: highly literate society. This is something you don't see in 1486 01:17:34,439 --> 01:17:36,840 Speaker 1: other places where. And also, by the way, very legally, 1487 01:17:36,840 --> 01:17:39,160 Speaker 1: it's very contractual. So I've got this contract here for 1488 01:17:39,200 --> 01:17:40,439 Speaker 1: you to sign. If you could take a look in 1489 01:17:40,479 --> 01:17:42,080 Speaker 1: my book here and if you could just sign in 1490 01:17:42,120 --> 01:17:44,720 Speaker 1: blood here, will will be we'll have a deal. Right. 1491 01:17:45,000 --> 01:17:47,439 Speaker 1: It's a it's a very pure and form of Satan. 1492 01:17:47,600 --> 01:17:50,160 Speaker 1: But he's a very real presence. And again if you 1493 01:17:50,200 --> 01:17:53,440 Speaker 1: think about two sort of coverting amongst the Native Americans 1494 01:17:53,479 --> 01:17:57,080 Speaker 1: and the French, the French Catholics on the frontier, and 1495 01:17:57,120 --> 01:17:59,800 Speaker 1: that's of course, um where where we have one of 1496 01:17:59,800 --> 01:18:02,560 Speaker 1: the early sightings of of of of Satan in the 1497 01:18:02,600 --> 01:18:05,040 Speaker 1: Salem Witch trials is you know, he's up in he's up. 1498 01:18:05,200 --> 01:18:07,760 Speaker 1: He was at Casco Bay and that's where I first 1499 01:18:07,840 --> 01:18:09,760 Speaker 1: met him, right, because that's where you'd expect to run 1500 01:18:09,760 --> 01:18:13,160 Speaker 1: into him. But again, physically meeting Satan, something that by 1501 01:18:13,160 --> 01:18:15,760 Speaker 1: the early eighteenth century, you know, Satan becomes this very 1502 01:18:15,800 --> 01:18:18,559 Speaker 1: sort of distant force like by the second by the 1503 01:18:18,560 --> 01:18:21,360 Speaker 1: first grade Awakening in the seventeen twenties, Satan no longer 1504 01:18:21,400 --> 01:18:24,240 Speaker 1: walks the earth, but in but in Salem six two, 1505 01:18:24,240 --> 01:18:26,760 Speaker 1: he can knock on your door. He's very absolutely he 1506 01:18:26,800 --> 01:18:29,640 Speaker 1: can be. He can he can be tormenting Titaba in 1507 01:18:29,680 --> 01:18:31,800 Speaker 1: the in the lean to of the Paris parsonage, telling 1508 01:18:31,800 --> 01:18:33,599 Speaker 1: her I'm gonna I'm gonna hurt you if you don't 1509 01:18:33,680 --> 01:18:36,519 Speaker 1: hurt the Paris kids, right, and so that it's a 1510 01:18:36,720 --> 01:18:38,320 Speaker 1: and again, if you think about this, this is a 1511 01:18:38,439 --> 01:18:44,639 Speaker 1: very real, imminent, scary, horny beast, who is who? Who 1512 01:18:44,720 --> 01:18:47,559 Speaker 1: is here to get you? And uh again, I think 1513 01:18:47,600 --> 01:18:49,200 Speaker 1: it's it's it's a you know, it's it's a very 1514 01:18:49,280 --> 01:18:53,040 Speaker 1: terrifying kind of kind of image as opposed to even 1515 01:18:53,200 --> 01:18:57,240 Speaker 1: by the eighteenth century, you know where you know, yeah, Satan, Yeah, 1516 01:18:57,280 --> 01:19:01,200 Speaker 1: that Satan is this force, right, but he's not He's 1517 01:19:01,200 --> 01:19:05,200 Speaker 1: not going to torture you and pinch you and in person. Yeah, 1518 01:19:05,400 --> 01:19:08,760 Speaker 1: obviously you've written a book on this, You've spoken prolifically 1519 01:19:08,800 --> 01:19:10,559 Speaker 1: about it and studied it for years. But if if 1520 01:19:10,560 --> 01:19:13,080 Speaker 1: there is one thing that you hoped people walked away 1521 01:19:13,120 --> 01:19:16,200 Speaker 1: with out of the plethora of things they could walk 1522 01:19:16,240 --> 01:19:19,000 Speaker 1: away with. Um, if if there's one thing that or 1523 01:19:19,040 --> 01:19:20,920 Speaker 1: maybe maybe we can stream it as if there's one 1524 01:19:20,960 --> 01:19:25,040 Speaker 1: thing that it means to you. So I mean, to 1525 01:19:25,040 --> 01:19:28,639 Speaker 1: me it is the ultimate sort of cautionary tail. Um. 1526 01:19:28,800 --> 01:19:31,400 Speaker 1: And and then I you know, unfortunately it's a sad 1527 01:19:31,439 --> 01:19:33,320 Speaker 1: story and it doesn't have a happy ending because I 1528 01:19:33,360 --> 01:19:35,880 Speaker 1: think in some ways, as long as we have prejudice 1529 01:19:36,479 --> 01:19:41,040 Speaker 1: and hatred, um, we're going to have some form of witchcraft, right, 1530 01:19:41,040 --> 01:19:43,840 Speaker 1: We're gonna have. We're gonna it's a question of of 1531 01:19:43,880 --> 01:19:47,120 Speaker 1: treating others differently and scapegoating. And you know, the way 1532 01:19:47,160 --> 01:19:48,320 Speaker 1: I look at it too, as you know, I think, 1533 01:19:48,560 --> 01:19:50,559 Speaker 1: here's the thing to me is what what bothers me? 1534 01:19:50,600 --> 01:19:53,120 Speaker 1: So much as so many people say how ignorant people 1535 01:19:53,160 --> 01:19:57,479 Speaker 1: were back then, how could they possibly believe in which 1536 01:19:57,600 --> 01:19:59,240 Speaker 1: is and that they were well? First off, remember in 1537 01:19:59,320 --> 01:20:02,880 Speaker 1: sixte two, which is where real everybody believed in them. 1538 01:20:03,160 --> 01:20:08,200 Speaker 1: University ministers, doctors of theology, governors, popes, which is are real. 1539 01:20:08,680 --> 01:20:12,000 Speaker 1: The only kind of serious question is is who are they? 1540 01:20:12,120 --> 01:20:13,840 Speaker 1: How do we figure out who they are and how 1541 01:20:13,840 --> 01:20:16,360 Speaker 1: do we stop them? Because they could be anybody could 1542 01:20:16,400 --> 01:20:19,080 Speaker 1: be you, It could be me, It could be it 1543 01:20:19,080 --> 01:20:21,559 Speaker 1: could be one of our children, could be could be 1544 01:20:21,600 --> 01:20:25,120 Speaker 1: a witch. They look just like us. Right. Well, but 1545 01:20:25,120 --> 01:20:29,560 Speaker 1: but here's the thing. These people want to destroy your society, 1546 01:20:29,680 --> 01:20:33,439 Speaker 1: uproot your faith, wipe out your family, kill you and 1547 01:20:33,479 --> 01:20:36,000 Speaker 1: everyone in your hometown and in your in your nation 1548 01:20:36,040 --> 01:20:38,439 Speaker 1: wherever that is. We have to stop them. Well, how 1549 01:20:38,479 --> 01:20:40,040 Speaker 1: the heck do we do this if we don't know 1550 01:20:40,200 --> 01:20:42,280 Speaker 1: who they are and what they look like. Well, we 1551 01:20:42,320 --> 01:20:44,240 Speaker 1: start looking at people are a little bit different. How 1552 01:20:44,280 --> 01:20:46,160 Speaker 1: about that person that may worship God a little bit 1553 01:20:46,160 --> 01:20:48,800 Speaker 1: differently than me, or that person sitting next to church 1554 01:20:48,800 --> 01:20:52,920 Speaker 1: and me who had this odd accent right, or maybe 1555 01:20:53,040 --> 01:20:55,719 Speaker 1: was wearing a different sort of hat than I wear? 1556 01:20:56,280 --> 01:20:59,000 Speaker 1: Um or uh, you know, we have to start looking 1557 01:20:59,000 --> 01:21:01,840 Speaker 1: and look somewhere because if we don't start profiling and 1558 01:21:01,840 --> 01:21:04,080 Speaker 1: looking for people who are different than us, they're going 1559 01:21:04,120 --> 01:21:07,280 Speaker 1: to do us in um. So here's the thing to me. 1560 01:21:07,360 --> 01:21:11,360 Speaker 1: If you switch the word witch and terrorists, you will 1561 01:21:11,439 --> 01:21:17,719 Speaker 1: understand just how difficult the task was in six because 1562 01:21:17,760 --> 01:21:21,360 Speaker 1: it's the kind of task and trouble we face today. Uh, 1563 01:21:21,360 --> 01:21:23,639 Speaker 1: you know where we know, um that we have enemies 1564 01:21:23,640 --> 01:21:25,880 Speaker 1: in our midst and if they would, they would destroy 1565 01:21:25,920 --> 01:21:30,559 Speaker 1: everything we believe in. They would destroy us. How much 1566 01:21:30,640 --> 01:21:35,439 Speaker 1: of our liberties, of our faith, of our of our 1567 01:21:35,479 --> 01:21:39,200 Speaker 1: good nature, of our trust of others, of our desire 1568 01:21:39,280 --> 01:21:42,240 Speaker 1: to help strangers, no matter how different from us, how 1569 01:21:42,320 --> 01:21:46,719 Speaker 1: much of that are we willing to sacrifice to try 1570 01:21:46,720 --> 01:21:49,680 Speaker 1: to save everything that we believe in. We are very 1571 01:21:49,680 --> 01:21:53,720 Speaker 1: hard in the people of I think if you look 1572 01:21:53,760 --> 01:21:57,000 Speaker 1: back on on our on our perspective, in three years, 1573 01:21:57,080 --> 01:22:00,920 Speaker 1: people may be hard on us, um and again, despite 1574 01:22:00,920 --> 01:22:04,280 Speaker 1: the best intentions of people to create a good, orderly, 1575 01:22:04,400 --> 01:22:08,559 Speaker 1: godly society, bad things happen. And I think the thing is, 1576 01:22:08,600 --> 01:22:10,360 Speaker 1: you know it to me, the you know, the lesson 1577 01:22:10,400 --> 01:22:11,760 Speaker 1: is if we can just if we can just try 1578 01:22:11,760 --> 01:22:14,720 Speaker 1: to be understanding your kind of people, you know, and 1579 01:22:14,760 --> 01:22:16,680 Speaker 1: try to get through it as best we can, but 1580 01:22:17,200 --> 01:22:19,439 Speaker 1: and try to look towards the good and human nature 1581 01:22:19,479 --> 01:22:22,680 Speaker 1: and try to avoid those sort of base reflexes as 1582 01:22:22,720 --> 01:22:27,439 Speaker 1: much as possible. But you know, it's it's it's it's 1583 01:22:27,479 --> 01:22:30,240 Speaker 1: not a happy ending, and we just we just we 1584 01:22:30,320 --> 01:22:40,920 Speaker 1: just hope people learn from it. This episode of Unobscured 1585 01:22:41,040 --> 01:22:44,760 Speaker 1: was executive produced by me, Matt Rederick, and Alex Williams, 1586 01:22:44,760 --> 01:22:48,880 Speaker 1: with music by Chad Lawson and audio engineering by Alex Williams. 1587 01:22:49,280 --> 01:22:52,400 Speaker 1: The Unobscured website has everything you need to get the 1588 01:22:52,439 --> 01:22:56,599 Speaker 1: most out of the podcast. There's a resource library of maps, charts, 1589 01:22:56,680 --> 01:23:00,320 Speaker 1: and links to Salem document archives online as all as 1590 01:23:00,360 --> 01:23:03,200 Speaker 1: a suggested reading list and a page with all of 1591 01:23:03,240 --> 01:23:07,920 Speaker 1: our historian biographies. And as always, thanks for supporting this show. 1592 01:23:08,360 --> 01:23:11,360 Speaker 1: If you love it, head over to Apple podcasts dot 1593 01:23:11,400 --> 01:23:14,960 Speaker 1: com slash Unobscured and leave a written review and a 1594 01:23:15,000 --> 01:23:18,280 Speaker 1: star rating. It makes a huge difference for the show's growth, 1595 01:23:19,439 --> 01:23:22,080 Speaker 1: and as always, thanks for listening.