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Speaker 1: Fellow conspiracy realists. Thank you for joining us this evening.

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Speaker 1: We sure hope you liked our classic episode on mk

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Speaker 1: Ultra one oh one, because guess what, we're back with

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Speaker 1: MK Ultra two oh one.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and the big question here is, Okay, we know

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Speaker 2: what was happening or release allegedly was happening during MK Ultra,

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Speaker 2: what was allowed to be released?

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Speaker 3: Did it stop?

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Speaker 1: And what about all the other stuff that remains unknown

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Speaker 1: about MK Ultra today because there's a lot. There's so much.

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Speaker 2: There's so much, and we're about to talk about it. Here.

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Speaker 2: We go.

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Speaker 4: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is

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Speaker 4: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or

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Speaker 4: learn this stuff they don't want you to know. A

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Speaker 4: production of iHeart Radios How Stuff Works.

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Speaker 3: Welcome back to the show.

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Speaker 2: My name is Matt, my name is Noman.

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Speaker 1: They call me Ben. We are joined with our super

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Speaker 1: producer Paul. Mission control decands. Most importantly, you are you,

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Speaker 1: You are here, and that makes this stuff they don't

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Speaker 1: want you to know. This is in some ways a

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Speaker 1: sequel episode. It's a follow up to our previous episode

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Speaker 1: MK Ultra one oh one, in which we described exactly

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Speaker 1: what mk ultra is equally is important. We describe what

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Speaker 1: it is not and how the public learned about it today. However,

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Speaker 1: we are looking beyond that twisted origin story. We're going

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Speaker 1: off the charted proven paths. We're going across the edges

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Speaker 1: of the map. We're exploring the conspiracies and allegations related

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Speaker 1: to mk Ultra in the modern day. Listeners, this episode

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Speaker 1: contains content that may be disturbing to some of us

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Speaker 1: in the audience, and that means you can turn back

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Speaker 1: now or walk with us just a bit further away

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Speaker 1: from the lights.

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Speaker 3: Oh. I like that.

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Speaker 2: That's a twist on it, and I really like that.

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Speaker 1: It's true. As you know, Matt, this is very much

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Speaker 1: true in this episode. Well, let's I mean, let's let's

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Speaker 1: start off with something easy, something simple. What what is

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Speaker 1: m k Ultra For anyone who said, I see M

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Speaker 1: k Eltra one oh one in that podcast feed, but

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Speaker 1: forget that, I want two oh one?

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Speaker 2: Yes?

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Speaker 3: Well one two?

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Speaker 2: Okay, Well, I think two one is the right way

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Speaker 2: to go.

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Speaker 3: That's right.

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Speaker 2: I think that's the way Georgia State would would do it.

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Speaker 3: So then that's my that's my favorite Alma Mo. Yeah, So.

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Speaker 2: The first thing you have to do is not think

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Speaker 2: about mk Ultra as one thing. It is not one thing.

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Speaker 2: It is a series of things, of projects, of experimentations,

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Speaker 2: of different experiments, of different groups of people who are

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Speaker 2: who were not necessarily working together. A lot of times

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Speaker 2: the aims were very similar, but you know, you have

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Speaker 2: different stuffy groups essentially, and it was all about, really,

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Speaker 2: at the heart of it, trying to find ways to

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Speaker 2: influence human beings, influence their perception, their behavior, or even

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Speaker 2: get them to do some or take some action that

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Speaker 2: you want them to take. And from all the official

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Speaker 2: accounts of the program really didn't work out that great.

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Speaker 2: They found some interesting things that could occur with drugs,

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Speaker 2: with especially how drugs interact with each other. Sometimes if

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Speaker 2: you get a really psychedelic trip and then influence somebody's

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Speaker 2: mind down the road, or if you can keep someone

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Speaker 2: within a psychedelic trip for long enough. Interesting things there.

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Speaker 2: But here's the deal, most everything didn't work the way

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Speaker 2: they wanted it.

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Speaker 3: To, right.

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Speaker 1: It turns out that the human brain was too complex

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Speaker 1: for the sort of technology and tactics that Uncle Sam

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Speaker 1: was applying in this case. They were famously inspired to

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Speaker 1: pursue this line of research due to fears that the

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Speaker 1: Soviet Union and the government of China were pursuing things

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Speaker 1: and already had a jump in this sort of behavioral modification,

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Speaker 1: primarily when they saw a cardinal confess to cavalcadive crimes

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Speaker 1: that he clearly did not do back in the fifties,

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Speaker 1: I believe, and what they thought was happening was not

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Speaker 1: the case in that scenario. What they thought was happening

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Speaker 1: was that this guy had been brainwashed completely and totally

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Speaker 1: and believed these demonstrably false things. But it turns out

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Speaker 1: that the only thing that really happened was Communist forces

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Speaker 1: and security services just beat the ever loving snot out

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Speaker 1: of this guy repeatedly and then, you know, psychologically abused him.

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Speaker 1: And he later in life said that he said there

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Speaker 1: was no spooky, spooky psychotronic stuff going on. But we

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Speaker 1: do know that, as you said, Matt, some of these

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Speaker 1: programs had limited success. They learned new things that would

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Speaker 1: be useful later. From all official accounts, there are no

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Speaker 1: Manchurian candidates, despite what Sir Hans Sirhan has claimed, and

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Speaker 1: he is alive and he is in jail. He maintains

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Speaker 1: that he was brainwashed.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, he keeps trying. He kept trying. I think it's

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Speaker 2: over right, think, I don't know if he can go

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Speaker 2: for parole over parole again, it might be he might

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Speaker 2: be done. Maybe that's not true. That's what I feel like.

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Speaker 2: I remember hearing let's put it in there anyway, and

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Speaker 2: somebody correct me.

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Speaker 3: I love that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So now it seems like if we if that's the

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Speaker 1: only information you have about m k Ultra, now you're

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Speaker 1: in a state where it seems as if this is

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Speaker 1: an open and shut horrific historical events. But we're gonna

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Speaker 1: shymel on it just a little bit because the problem

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Speaker 1: with MK Ultra is this. The CIA purged everything they

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Speaker 1: could internally find related to MK Ultra back in nineteen

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Speaker 1: seventy three under Director Helms.

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Speaker 3: When you say purged, and what are you talking about here, and.

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Speaker 1: We're talking about physically burning paperwork? This this only compounded

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Speaker 1: the original problem, which was that they were not keeping

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Speaker 1: much paperwork to begin with. They didn't want the trail.

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Speaker 1: They wanted the minimum amount of stuff they needed to

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Speaker 1: have in order to keep their ducks in a row,

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Speaker 1: so they purged everything in seventy three. The public only

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Speaker 1: found hard proof of the operation when a Freedom of

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Speaker 1: Information Act request turned up two thousand documents that had

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Speaker 1: been misfiled, two thousand documents that were supposed to have

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Speaker 1: also been absolutely utterly destroyed. So this means that in

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Speaker 1: twenty nineteen, and probably in twenty twenty, and probably in

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Speaker 1: thirty nineteen, if people still care about it, we will

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Speaker 1: not know the full extent of what the CIA was

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Speaker 1: up to. We don't know all the experiments they conducted.

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Speaker 1: We have some hints, but it's possible that we never

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Speaker 1: will learn. As we noted previously, we have officially entered

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Speaker 1: the realm of deathbed confessions. What do we mean by this?

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Speaker 1: We mean that the only way the public will learn

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Speaker 1: more about this program will be if someone who was

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Speaker 1: working with it firsthand has a change of heart and

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Speaker 1: confesses or provides new information because they're you know, that's

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Speaker 1: how deathbed confession works. You're about to go out. You

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Speaker 1: want to meet the afterlife if such exists with a

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Speaker 1: clean conscience.

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Speaker 2: And that is if that person even really truly understands

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Speaker 2: what they were doing or experimenting on, if they were

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Speaker 2: not just a tiny piece of a larger puzzle that

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Speaker 2: was the experiment right, which is highly possible. That kind

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Speaker 2: of plausible deniability is built into a lot of these experiments.

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Speaker 5: The thing about a deathbed confession too, is like, it's

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Speaker 5: what better moment is there to be able to drop

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Speaker 5: a truth bomb where you don't have to be around

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Speaker 5: to deal with the aftermath or the fallout the consequences

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Speaker 5: directed at you, you know.

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Speaker 2: Unless you have kids. Wow, that's true and grandkids, that's

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Speaker 2: fair true.

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Speaker 1: It's also it's also strangely common for people to make

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Speaker 1: fake deathbed confessions. Sometimes that can be due to a

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Speaker 1: deteriorating mental state and someone really believes that they're Jack

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Speaker 1: the Ripper and you're like, oh, man, uncle Bill, you

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Speaker 1: were born in nineteen seventy three. The math doesn't check out,

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Speaker 1: and they're like, no, it was me. It's my dying

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Speaker 1: wish that you tell the world the truth and you

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Speaker 1: just have to hold their hand.

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Speaker 3: That's it.

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Speaker 1: That went dark. So at this point, as twenty nineteen,

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Speaker 1: as we record this, there has not been any large

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Speaker 1: scale revelation related to m k Ultra since those investigations

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Speaker 1: back in the nineteen seventies when the senators famously held

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Speaker 1: up a heart attack gun in the halls of Congress

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Speaker 1: and you can see this clip online. Folks. It's it's

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Speaker 1: somewhat distressing the gun itself. I don't know if we

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Speaker 1: talked about this in a pre Did we talk about

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Speaker 1: this in a previous episode?

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Speaker 3: We did?

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Speaker 2: I believe we've brought I think we brought this up

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Speaker 2: when we went over the control group where we Brentwood

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Speaker 2: and we talked about some of this stuff. Yeah, and

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Speaker 2: then before that too with a DARPA yes.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and assassination attempts. So it's a pretty neat idea.

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Speaker 1: It's a gun that fires frozen darts of poison and

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Speaker 1: they're so small that they can go through your clothing

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Speaker 1: without leaving a mark. And if it works, if they

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Speaker 1: successfully get the shot off, the corpse will look as

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Speaker 1: if it died from a heart attack. Clever stuff, camp

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Speaker 1: mall piercing. Yeah. I can't buy it in Walmart.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and don't even if it was available, Do not

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Speaker 2: buy that.

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Speaker 1: Don't. For anyone who is listening and not in the

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Speaker 1: United States, one thing that would probably baffle you, or

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Speaker 1: maybe not, is that Walmart sells guns, which is, you know,

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Speaker 1: that's what we all accept as normal here. But if

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Speaker 1: you're from Sweden or something and you walk into a supermarket,

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Speaker 1: wouldn't you be surprised?

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Speaker 3: Yeah? Probably?

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Speaker 5: You know, Dick's Sporting Goods is actually phasing out the

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Speaker 5: sale of guns.

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Speaker 3: I think largely.

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Speaker 5: Because I mean, I'm sure there was some political reasons

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Speaker 5: for doing it, but I think from what I heard,

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Speaker 5: it was becoming less and less profitable.

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Speaker 1: That makes sense.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and for a big box store like that, you

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Speaker 3: know what I mean.

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Speaker 5: Usually you would go to a specialty store to buy

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Speaker 5: guns or a gun show, righteah.

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Speaker 2: And they're also most of them long rifles of some sort,

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Speaker 2: that's right, like a shotgun or a hunting rising. Not

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Speaker 2: quite as effective unless you're sniping.

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Speaker 1: And no one sells the heart attack gun that we

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Speaker 1: know of. So all this secrecy has led to an

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Speaker 1: interesting situation. The strange and strangely incomplete story of m.

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Speaker 1: K Oultra has become enshrined in conspiracy folklore. It has

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Speaker 1: been associated with multitudes of other theories, and typically the

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Speaker 1: gist of those theories will go the US public learned

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Speaker 1: about mk Ultra. That is the tip of the proverbial iceberg.

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Speaker 1: There's much much more beneath the surface, and if you

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Speaker 1: buy my book you will learn it, which sounds a

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Speaker 1: little bit cynical, but that is honestly the way it goes.

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Speaker 1: And it's all based on a very valid and troubling question.

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Speaker 1: What else went on from the nineteen fifties through the

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Speaker 1: nineteen seventies. Furthermore, what if anything happened afterward?

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Speaker 2: And we're going to delve into that right after a

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Speaker 2: quick word from our sponsor.

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Speaker 1: Here's where it gets crazy, more or less. Immediately after

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Speaker 1: the reveal of mk Ultra, people in the United States

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Speaker 1: and abroad began raising allegations of continuing related programs, and

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Speaker 1: this quickly, quickly, quickly got very out there in terms

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Speaker 1: of the claims. The most infamous alleged project related to

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Speaker 1: mk Ultra is something called Project Monarch.

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Speaker 2: Yes, and this is this is one of the one

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Speaker 2: of the more out there things I would say that

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Speaker 2: we're going to discuss today. There are some weird things

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Speaker 2: we're going to discuss today, but this is one of

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Speaker 2: the feels like it's out there because, oh, here's a

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Speaker 2: little spoiler alert. It involves demons, it involves rituals, the

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Speaker 2: Kabbala and mysticisms, some of our favorite things, multiple personalities

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Speaker 2: and or demonic possession. So let's get into it.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, all of that though within what's described as a

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Speaker 5: systematic framework. So this is like some serious like X

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Speaker 5: files type stuff, and it involved some things, some rituals

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Speaker 5: that could be described as satanic in nature, usually involving

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Speaker 5: some form of cannibalism, and performed with the intent of

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Speaker 5: attaching a demon or you know, a pantheon, like a

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Speaker 5: group of demons, and in order to kind of create

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Speaker 5: alternate versions of individuals in the same way that you

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Speaker 5: might through therapy create an alternate version of a self

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Speaker 5: that didn't experience the trauma that caused you to have

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Speaker 5: you know, psychological problems.

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Speaker 1: Right, this, this idea of intentionally creating alters or alternate

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Speaker 1: personalities isn't unique to Project Monarch. You've seen it in

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Speaker 1: works of fiction. It's in hereditary. Yes, arguably, it.

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Speaker 2: Feels a lot like a fictionalized version of a secret

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Speaker 2: military thing or a secret project like this.

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Speaker 1: And a lot of a lot of cults also practice

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Speaker 1: this kind of disassociation.

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Speaker 2: It's just yeah, it's just in a different form.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 2: You don't have to use you don't need to get

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Speaker 2: demons involved, you don't need to get the cabala involved.

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Speaker 2: You just start disassociating somebody through manipulation.

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Speaker 1: Crowley also practiced some stuff like this, and the Illuminatus trilogy,

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Speaker 1: which is a fantastic work, also depicts this. Nor your

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Speaker 1: description might sound weird to some of us listening, but

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Speaker 1: that is that is the case. The idea is that

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Speaker 1: this this occult stuff was either a theatrical trapping or

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Speaker 1: they were practicing magic to summon some sort of extra

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Speaker 1: dimensional entity and make people, typically children, minors, into vessels

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Speaker 1: for these creatures. That's a lot to take in. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you know, to to phrase it simply, we'll get back

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Speaker 1: to some of this stuff, but to phrase it simply.

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Speaker 1: The people who believe in Project Monarch see it as

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Speaker 1: a subset of the earlier program Project Artichoke and its

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Speaker 1: successor mk Ultra. One of the most well known authors

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Speaker 1: on the subject of Project Monarch is a person named

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Speaker 1: Kathy O'Brien. You can find multiple people who claim that

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Speaker 1: they were somehow involved in this Monarch program, but Kathy

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Speaker 1: O'Brien is one of the most prominent. She wrote a

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Speaker 1: book called The Transformation of America. Since this is an

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Speaker 1: audio show, I just want to make sure you get

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Speaker 1: the pun there. Trance as in hypnotic trance and in

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Speaker 1: formation as in an organization or group. So in Transformation

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Speaker 1: of America, she claims she was a victim of Monarch.

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Speaker 1: She relates it in the following way. She says she

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Speaker 1: was sexually abused as a child on multiple occasions by

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Speaker 1: various people, starting with her father and then expanding to

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Speaker 1: a network of individuals who were connected with the underground

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Speaker 1: world of underage pornography yikes.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, and then according to the story, that's when she

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Speaker 5: became a victim of Project Monarch. She describes Monarch as

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Speaker 5: a project that used trauma based mind control that's in

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Speaker 5: quotes there to create separate, distinct personalities within a single individual.

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Speaker 5: This kind of makes you think of almost the Manchurian

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Speaker 5: candidate effect, where you've got like a buried personality that

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Speaker 5: can be summoned at will, or not your will, but

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Speaker 5: the will of your controller.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 5: So, according to O'Brien, this is accomplished with the help

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Speaker 5: of some of these occult trappings and of course a

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Speaker 5: lot of theater of the mind. She claims, for example,

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Speaker 5: that George W. Bush used holograms for intimidation, and this

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Speaker 5: is a quote from Harry He said She said Bush

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Speaker 5: apparently activated a hologram of the lizard like alien, which

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Speaker 5: provided the illusion of Bush transforming like a chameleon before

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Speaker 5: my eyes. In retrospect, I understand that Bush had been

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Speaker 5: painstakingly careful in positioning our seats in order that the

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Speaker 5: hologram's effectiveness be maximized.

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Speaker 2: So on the surface, it sounds like somebody who's making

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Speaker 2: up a story. When you're listening to it with a

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Speaker 2: skeptical mind, it's difficult to not do that, I think,

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Speaker 2: because it sounds so out there, it sounds so fantastical.

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Speaker 1: Sit right there and watch me lizard real quick.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, wait, well I need to position your seat for war.

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Speaker 2: But you know, I think that's what with these kinds

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Speaker 2: of things. It's difficult, even listening to it, to put

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Speaker 2: your mind in a place where you can think, well,

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Speaker 2: is that in any way possible or is there like,

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Speaker 2: what are the what are the possible explanations for this?

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Speaker 2: To have that belief that George W. Bush somehow is

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Speaker 2: using hologram technology to trick you or show you something

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Speaker 2: of an extraterrestrial.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it may be. Socratic method is the one of

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Speaker 1: the best ways to approach this, you know, start with

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Speaker 1: a question. Let's say, if that were true, what set

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Speaker 1: of circumstances would compel one of the most powerful people

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Speaker 1: in the world to do this. It sounds a bit tall.

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Speaker 3: Order Dick Cheney didn't do anything.

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Speaker 1: Oh, you know, I imagine that he was involved. He

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Speaker 1: seems like a guy would be excited by holograms. Who

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Speaker 1: wouldn't They're neat.

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Speaker 3: I think you wouldn't.

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Speaker 5: Did you guys hear that Roy Orbison and Buddy Holly

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Speaker 5: are doing a hologram tour.

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Speaker 3: This is now a thing, like it's really becoming a thing.

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Speaker 1: Started with Tupac.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, it did start with Tupac, but now it's like

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Speaker 5: whole package hologram. I only bring it out because it

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Speaker 5: used to be something that was used by the military. Uh,

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Speaker 5: and now it's, you know, just for funzies.

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Speaker 2: Churches are using that across the globe right now. The

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Speaker 2: megachurches that have a single person like Andy Stanley or

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Speaker 2: somebody who's giving a talk.

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Speaker 1: Or Kreflow Dollar.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and he's being he and they are being like

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Speaker 2: turned into holograms essentially. And other churches.

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Speaker 5: I would have thought they would have made one of

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Speaker 5: Jesus Christ. That'd be a cool effect.

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Speaker 1: It's touchy. That's a touchy one. It's tough. I mean,

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Speaker 1: imagine making a hologram of any religious figure, a hologram

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Speaker 1: of Buddha, a hologram of Mohammed.

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Speaker 3: Well, that would be problematic, right, you know?

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Speaker 2: That would be Project Bluebeam.

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Speaker 1: Yep, which is which is a different show. The important

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Speaker 1: part here before we get to sidetracked holograms. The important

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Speaker 1: part here is the timing of this, because the allegation

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Speaker 1: then is not just that prominent world leaders are resorting

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Speaker 1: to this technology to to traumatize children. It's that this

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Speaker 1: technology existed in their circle before it existed anywhere else.

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Speaker 2: But the big question is why would someone do that?

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Speaker 1: And it doesn't stay in the US. O'Brien paints a

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Speaker 1: global portrait of abuse. She claims that forces in Mexico,

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Speaker 1: the US, Europe, Saudi Arabia more are all actively involved

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Speaker 1: in Monarch and its successors, its successor programs for the

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Speaker 1: express purpose of creating sex slaves and maintaining child abuse rings.

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Speaker 1: Several years ago, that would have sounded impossible. Several years ago,

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Speaker 1: it would have ohbrien claims to have phenomenal photographic rec

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Speaker 1: of these events, despite previously suppressing them. Or having them

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Speaker 1: suppressed by shadowy government agents. Her recollections in her book

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Speaker 1: come overwhelmingly, almost entirely from what's called hypnotic regression. Hypnotic

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Speaker 1: regression is a is a process in which a hypnotist

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Speaker 1: sits with a person and takes them into a trance

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Speaker 1: state and guides them through reliving past experiences. The big

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Speaker 1: problem with hypnotic regression.

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Speaker 3: Is the G word. You just said. They're being guided.

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Speaker 1: Guided, there we go, yeah.

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Speaker 2: Right, because the ideas can be slightly influenced with this

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Speaker 2: tiny keyword or a tiny word that is thrown in

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Speaker 2: during the guidance process that then leads the You know,

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Speaker 2: how do you know if the person your subject, if

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Speaker 2: it's their imagination that's taking you down that path, or

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Speaker 2: or if they're actually recalling an event that's taking them

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Speaker 2: down that path of recollection? Is it recollection or fiction?

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Speaker 2: And there's no real way to tell right right there.

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Speaker 1: The problem is that if you're putting an individual in

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Speaker 1: a state of enhanced suggestibility, then they're very open to guiding.

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Speaker 1: And this is not to say that the hypnotists in

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Speaker 1: question are purposely doing this. No, it's just very easy

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Speaker 1: to accidentally take someone in a weird in a weird direction.

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Speaker 1: And you know, we know that memory betrays us and

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Speaker 1: most of our memories are increasingly works of fiction as

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Speaker 1: we age. But that's let's leave let's leave O'Brien and

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Speaker 1: Monarch there right now in a second, yes.

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Speaker 2: And let's just go ahead in and put forth right here.

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Speaker 2: That you may see online accusations of a lot of

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Speaker 2: pop stars, and generally younger female pop stars, there are

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Speaker 2: a lot of accusations that they have been into visually

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Speaker 2: involved in Monarch in some way. A lot of times

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Speaker 2: you'll see allegations of a music video like a Katy

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Speaker 2: Perry music video or a Britney Spears was a big

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Speaker 2: one back in the day of look at the symbology,

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Speaker 2: look at the symbols happening in these videos. This is

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Speaker 2: Project Monarch, like them showing us without telling us in

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Speaker 2: a way like almost flaunting it. You'll see that a lot.

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Speaker 2: You'll see when when a young pop star has a breakdown,

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Speaker 2: like a public breakdown, that Project Monarch gets brought up

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Speaker 2: a lot. Especially especially what I'm recalling is when Britney

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Speaker 2: Spears like shaved her head and ago, yes exactly, he

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Speaker 2: leave Brittany, Well, that was a part of it. But genuinely,

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Speaker 2: that's when you will see a lot of that stuff

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Speaker 2: cropping up as part of the trauma that was supposedly

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Speaker 2: given to her or that she experienced through Project Monarch.

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Speaker 2: Just putting that out.

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Speaker 1: There and other people's that the world of the world

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Speaker 1: of entertainment music especially is already crooked and horrific and

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Speaker 1: just sad empathetic enough without needing to add in that

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Speaker 1: other the other problems. But it's true, and that's a

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Speaker 1: very good point. You can find numerous lists of people

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Speaker 1: like Amanda Bynes, Britney Spears, who else, tell us tell

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Speaker 1: us your favorites, right, Oh, Katie Perry, as you said, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: Margo Kidder, Margot Kidders.

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Speaker 2: I don't know who that is.

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Speaker 3: She played Lois Lane in the Christopher Reeve Superman movies.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, and she was found like wandering naked, I believe

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Speaker 5: in other people's yards in Beverly Hills.

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Speaker 3: Who. Yeah, she had like a an episode. She was not.

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Speaker 1: Well and she was not gang stalked, but other people

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Speaker 1: have been. This is this is something related to m

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Speaker 1: k Ultra that you will hear a lot. Some of

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Speaker 1: us listening now have asked us in the past to

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Speaker 1: cover gang stalking, and we can do an entire episode

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Speaker 1: on it, so we'll just give you the broad strokes here.

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Speaker 1: Gang Stalking is the idea that a person, for one

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Speaker 1: reason or another, will be surreptitiously monitored and followed in

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Speaker 1: person by a group of unidentified people. So imagine you

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Speaker 1: wherever you're at. Now, imagine that you get up and

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Speaker 1: you walk outside and there's someone in the distance in

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Speaker 1: the corner. They have a green hat on, and you

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Speaker 1: see them, but you don't know. You might not be

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Speaker 1: in a town where people wave at strangers, so you

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Speaker 1: just keep walking. You go to a store and while

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Speaker 1: you're in the store, let's say you're feeling healthy, so

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Speaker 1: you buy some juice and some almonds, and then the

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Speaker 1: person who rings you up is looking at you weird.

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Speaker 1: Look behind you. There's someone in a green hat at

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Speaker 1: the end of Aisle three, pretending to shop, but just

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Speaker 1: sort of standing there.

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Speaker 3: And you know they're pretending to shop.

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Speaker 1: And you know they're pretending to shop, and you leave,

438
00:26:15,160 --> 00:26:18,560
Speaker 1: walking back, and as you're walking back, you see three

439
00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:22,920
Speaker 1: other people, possibly in green hats, possibly not, and they're

440
00:26:22,960 --> 00:26:25,280
Speaker 1: all just sort of standing around as if they're waiting

441
00:26:25,320 --> 00:26:28,399
Speaker 1: for you. One person is on a phone talking. You

442
00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:31,200
Speaker 1: can't hear what they're saying, but they are staring directly

443
00:26:31,240 --> 00:26:33,680
Speaker 1: at you. That's Gang's talking.

444
00:26:34,240 --> 00:26:35,720
Speaker 2: It's essentially the Truman Show.

445
00:26:36,280 --> 00:26:36,480
Speaker 1: Right.

446
00:26:36,520 --> 00:26:39,680
Speaker 2: If you are Truman, it feels as though for the

447
00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:43,080
Speaker 2: person experiencing it, or believing they're experiencing it, it feels like

448
00:26:43,119 --> 00:26:44,080
Speaker 2: you are Truman.

449
00:26:43,960 --> 00:26:47,280
Speaker 1: And it's a more malicious Truman Show.

450
00:26:47,359 --> 00:26:47,520
Speaker 3: Right.

451
00:26:47,760 --> 00:26:52,639
Speaker 1: Yes, So is this harassment? Is a paranoia? Is it

452
00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:57,399
Speaker 1: good old fashioned spycraft? All three of those answers, in

453
00:26:57,480 --> 00:27:00,600
Speaker 1: at least a few cases are correct. Yeah, you know

454
00:27:00,600 --> 00:27:01,080
Speaker 1: what I mean.

455
00:27:01,560 --> 00:27:09,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean for someone experiencing perhaps a short term

456
00:27:09,200 --> 00:27:13,679
Speaker 2: high paranoia situation or feeling like I can imagine this.

457
00:27:14,240 --> 00:27:18,080
Speaker 2: I think I've probably experienced like short term gang stocking

458
00:27:18,119 --> 00:27:20,160
Speaker 2: at the height of a time in my life when

459
00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:23,040
Speaker 2: I'm feeling unsure, or something where I just feel as

460
00:27:23,080 --> 00:27:24,720
Speaker 2: though everyone around me is out.

461
00:27:24,600 --> 00:27:26,399
Speaker 3: To get me, just for a moment, you know what

462
00:27:26,440 --> 00:27:26,680
Speaker 3: I mean.

463
00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:28,640
Speaker 2: I think we've all maybe experienced something like that where

464
00:27:28,640 --> 00:27:32,399
Speaker 2: everything just feels off, And there are a lot of

465
00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:35,040
Speaker 2: people out there who have experienced that before and for

466
00:27:35,800 --> 00:27:39,439
Speaker 2: perhaps more deep seated problems. They've experienced that, But we

467
00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:43,000
Speaker 2: do know that that kind of surveillance on somebody, like

468
00:27:43,119 --> 00:27:47,760
Speaker 2: actual on the ground surveillance occurs, and it does, and

469
00:27:47,800 --> 00:27:49,160
Speaker 2: it's not that uncommon.

470
00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:55,080
Speaker 1: It's not that uncommon. It's sloppy spycraft, yes, because typically

471
00:27:55,320 --> 00:27:58,960
Speaker 1: you would want your observer to be unnoticed.

472
00:27:59,200 --> 00:27:59,360
Speaker 3: Yea.

473
00:27:59,720 --> 00:28:04,160
Speaker 1: But it also happens in other countries, especially authoritarian countries

474
00:28:04,440 --> 00:28:08,000
Speaker 1: or dictatorships. It'll probably it'll probably phase out a little

475
00:28:08,080 --> 00:28:13,640
Speaker 1: bit as digital surveillance becomes overwhelmingly efficient.

476
00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:17,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, at this point, you could just get into somebody's

477
00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:19,960
Speaker 2: cell phone and then it could be on a table

478
00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:23,760
Speaker 2: and you got everything you need right right.

479
00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:26,560
Speaker 1: And by the way, we got a great email from

480
00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:31,680
Speaker 1: our essay intern we did it was moving on. Congratulations

481
00:28:32,440 --> 00:28:35,960
Speaker 1: and we'll go. Let's go to Gang Stocking in its

482
00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:38,440
Speaker 1: own episode. Let's make that an episode in the future, okay.

483
00:28:38,600 --> 00:28:41,360
Speaker 1: And in the meantime, we'd like to hear your stories

484
00:28:41,400 --> 00:28:45,360
Speaker 1: about gang Stocking. We'd like to know what you would

485
00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:48,880
Speaker 1: like to share with your fellow listeners. For now, it

486
00:28:49,120 --> 00:28:54,160
Speaker 1: seems that we have monarch as a as a thing

487
00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:58,160
Speaker 1: that's universally dismissed by a lot of the mainstream. We

488
00:28:58,200 --> 00:29:02,560
Speaker 1: have gang stocking, which is problematic, but we do know

489
00:29:02,840 --> 00:29:06,320
Speaker 1: that mk ultra is moving forward at least in the

490
00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:08,360
Speaker 1: legal system and not here in the US.

491
00:29:09,120 --> 00:29:13,120
Speaker 2: That's right, we have to go to Canada for a

492
00:29:13,200 --> 00:29:15,760
Speaker 2: look into a class action lawsuit. We're going to do

493
00:29:15,800 --> 00:29:18,200
Speaker 2: that right after another word from our sponsor.

494
00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:28,080
Speaker 1: Oh Canada. So we had spoken in mk Ultra one

495
00:29:28,160 --> 00:29:32,000
Speaker 1: oh one about the two unsuccessful lawsuits here in the

496
00:29:32,040 --> 00:29:36,640
Speaker 1: States related to mk ultra. In Canada, there is a

497
00:29:36,760 --> 00:29:43,400
Speaker 1: class action suit in the works now. Survivors and families

498
00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:47,640
Speaker 1: people who are affected by mk ultra and the CIA

499
00:29:47,720 --> 00:29:52,200
Speaker 1: mind control program at a place called McGill University's Allen

500
00:29:52,280 --> 00:29:56,960
Speaker 1: Memorial Institute in Montreal are going to sue Quebec and

501
00:29:57,080 --> 00:30:00,840
Speaker 1: the federal governments both the US and Canada because of

502
00:30:00,880 --> 00:30:04,960
Speaker 1: what they say had been done to them five decades ago. Well,

503
00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:09,800
Speaker 1: you can follow this group on Facebook Survivors Allied against

504
00:30:09,880 --> 00:30:15,240
Speaker 1: Government Abuse. The acronym would be SAGA with two aays

505
00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:19,920
Speaker 1: at the beginning. And this includes victims and family members

506
00:30:19,920 --> 00:30:24,560
Speaker 1: of victims of Canadians who participated in brainwashing experiments under

507
00:30:24,600 --> 00:30:28,080
Speaker 1: the supervision of a man named doctor Ewen Cameron. He

508
00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:31,800
Speaker 1: was director of the Psychiatric hospital from the forties, fifties,

509
00:30:32,040 --> 00:30:34,880
Speaker 1: and sixties, he did something that would be familiar to

510
00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:38,680
Speaker 1: fans of the control group. He conducted these experiments that

511
00:30:38,720 --> 00:30:44,680
Speaker 1: were called deep patterning or psychic driving. What they essentially

512
00:30:44,720 --> 00:30:49,040
Speaker 1: did through a number of a number of techniques. They

513
00:30:49,080 --> 00:30:52,360
Speaker 1: would try to erase the patient's memories, which is not

514
00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:55,680
Speaker 1: an impossible thing to do, and then go a step

515
00:30:55,720 --> 00:31:00,840
Speaker 1: further an attempt to reprogram them with new thoughts. One

516
00:31:00,840 --> 00:31:05,160
Speaker 1: of the examples of this would include forcing someone to

517
00:31:05,320 --> 00:31:10,840
Speaker 1: listen to repetitive audio loop over and over and over again,

518
00:31:10,920 --> 00:31:14,120
Speaker 1: four hours and hours on end, while also drugging them

519
00:31:14,200 --> 00:31:18,240
Speaker 1: to keep them in a comatose or semi comatose unconscious state.

520
00:31:18,920 --> 00:31:23,520
Speaker 1: So this could last for as long as three days.

521
00:31:24,360 --> 00:31:29,800
Speaker 1: Just you're put under, you're administered like the food and

522
00:31:30,080 --> 00:31:33,320
Speaker 1: water you need to survive, and the entire time, there's

523
00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:38,360
Speaker 1: some tape saying, you know, probably in the doctor's voice

524
00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:42,080
Speaker 1: or maybe in your own voice. Yeah, when it's like

525
00:31:42,640 --> 00:31:48,600
Speaker 1: I can only trust doctor Frederick, doctor Frederick wants me.

526
00:31:48,720 --> 00:31:52,200
Speaker 2: Well, certainly most effective in your voice, I think, as

527
00:31:52,200 --> 00:31:55,760
Speaker 2: the patient, air as the subject, because then it becomes

528
00:31:55,800 --> 00:31:58,560
Speaker 2: your own inner dialogue.

529
00:31:57,800 --> 00:32:02,000
Speaker 1: Right, and you're in a state of sensory deprivation when

530
00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:02,640
Speaker 1: you're put under.

531
00:32:03,080 --> 00:32:03,880
Speaker 3: So yikes.

532
00:32:04,000 --> 00:32:07,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, so this is this is really weird, creepy stuff.

533
00:32:08,000 --> 00:32:10,640
Speaker 2: And if you want an example of a fictionalized version

534
00:32:10,640 --> 00:32:13,719
Speaker 2: of it again, check out Control Group. It's available right now,

535
00:32:13,760 --> 00:32:16,680
Speaker 2: all episodes and season two is going to be happening

536
00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:17,160
Speaker 2: at some point.

537
00:32:17,280 --> 00:32:21,040
Speaker 1: That is true. Yeah, it's a creepy story. It's creepy story.

538
00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:26,719
Speaker 1: The Canadian government gave doctor Cameron roughly half a million

539
00:32:26,760 --> 00:32:31,000
Speaker 1: dollars between nineteen fifty and nineteen sixty five and twenty eighteen.

540
00:32:31,280 --> 00:32:34,320
Speaker 1: If we wanted to adjust for inflation, that's four million

541
00:32:34,360 --> 00:32:38,320
Speaker 1: bucks US. They gave him four million bucks. And then

542
00:32:38,520 --> 00:32:42,640
Speaker 1: the CIA also gave him money through one of those

543
00:32:42,720 --> 00:32:46,320
Speaker 1: front organizations that you mentioned our previous episode, Matt, the

544
00:32:46,400 --> 00:32:49,480
Speaker 1: Society for the Investigation of Human Ecology.

545
00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:54,720
Speaker 3: That's great, So are we for it? Or again it.

546
00:32:57,240 --> 00:33:01,800
Speaker 2: Are we for? Are we for mk ultra in general?

547
00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:04,560
Speaker 5: The various projects, the various projects, But let's hear some

548
00:33:04,680 --> 00:33:06,840
Speaker 5: arguments for and against.

549
00:33:07,720 --> 00:33:11,920
Speaker 2: Okay, let's let's start with Monarch.

550
00:33:11,960 --> 00:33:14,360
Speaker 1: That sounds good, yes, yes, So the first thing we

551
00:33:14,440 --> 00:33:16,760
Speaker 1: should be very very clear about. So when you say

552
00:33:16,840 --> 00:33:20,880
Speaker 1: four four or against we're saying for or against them

553
00:33:21,040 --> 00:33:24,600
Speaker 1: actually existing, the veracity of these claims. We're not we're

554
00:33:24,600 --> 00:33:27,040
Speaker 1: not arguing that we support projects.

555
00:33:27,120 --> 00:33:28,520
Speaker 3: Well, I mean that's your position.

556
00:33:28,800 --> 00:33:30,480
Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, that's true, that's true.

557
00:33:31,280 --> 00:33:32,520
Speaker 3: Absolutely, it is a democracy.

558
00:33:32,560 --> 00:33:36,760
Speaker 5: But no, it's exactly I mean, this is it's a cliche,

559
00:33:36,840 --> 00:33:39,520
Speaker 5: but this is utterly shrouded in mystery. There's a lot

560
00:33:39,520 --> 00:33:43,040
Speaker 5: of conjecture that goes into picking this stuff apart. So

561
00:33:43,600 --> 00:33:48,640
Speaker 5: what are the arguments for its existence versus against its existence?

562
00:33:49,000 --> 00:33:51,920
Speaker 2: Okay, well, okay, let's again. We'll start with Project Monarch, right, Okay,

563
00:33:52,440 --> 00:33:56,080
Speaker 2: we're talking about how we got these fy A documents

564
00:33:56,080 --> 00:33:59,760
Speaker 2: for m k Ultra in general. Right, overall, there is

565
00:33:59,840 --> 00:34:04,520
Speaker 2: no in any of those documents that talk about ways

566
00:34:04,600 --> 00:34:10,720
Speaker 2: to implant demons and or use ancient mysticism or anything

567
00:34:10,719 --> 00:34:14,160
Speaker 2: to that effect to have a thing called Project Monarch.

568
00:34:14,520 --> 00:34:17,640
Speaker 2: It doesn't exist. Right through. The primary evidence that you're

569
00:34:17,640 --> 00:34:21,720
Speaker 2: gonna find for Project Monarch is somebody online somewhere generally,

570
00:34:21,960 --> 00:34:26,080
Speaker 2: or speaking in a book or something saying I was

571
00:34:26,120 --> 00:34:30,120
Speaker 2: a part of Project Monarch as a victim slash subject.

572
00:34:30,360 --> 00:34:35,239
Speaker 1: I like this so intellectual exercise counterpoint, the majority of

573
00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:37,360
Speaker 1: mk ultra documents were destroyed.

574
00:34:37,800 --> 00:34:38,320
Speaker 3: It's true.

575
00:34:39,080 --> 00:34:42,239
Speaker 2: It's true. So when we say the counterpoint, yeah, it's

576
00:34:42,280 --> 00:34:43,120
Speaker 2: a great counterpoint.

577
00:34:43,160 --> 00:34:44,160
Speaker 3: Most of them were destroyed.

578
00:34:44,719 --> 00:34:47,920
Speaker 2: And you would probably want to destroy something if you

579
00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:52,320
Speaker 2: had anything written down about using demons to manipulate people

580
00:34:52,400 --> 00:34:54,400
Speaker 2: and create sex slaves.

581
00:34:54,280 --> 00:34:58,320
Speaker 1: Right, yeah, agreed, you just toss off sex slaves.

582
00:34:57,920 --> 00:34:58,919
Speaker 3: Just like nothing.

583
00:34:59,320 --> 00:35:03,000
Speaker 2: Well I did, because that's essentially what that is, essentially

584
00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:06,279
Speaker 2: what the monarch is supposed to be about. Right, whether

585
00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:09,080
Speaker 2: it's a lot of times alleged it's a sex slave,

586
00:35:09,719 --> 00:35:12,719
Speaker 2: like an iconic sex slave like a Britney Spears, or

587
00:35:12,719 --> 00:35:15,960
Speaker 2: someone that then projects out to millions of people across

588
00:35:16,000 --> 00:35:20,760
Speaker 2: the planet, what what what it should be to belimates essentially,

589
00:35:21,880 --> 00:35:25,239
Speaker 2: or it's a single human being who is being you know,

590
00:35:25,760 --> 00:35:29,600
Speaker 2: abused and like in the shadows by someone powerful.

591
00:35:30,200 --> 00:35:36,000
Speaker 1: So we know that, unfortunately and tragically, we know that

592
00:35:36,239 --> 00:35:40,440
Speaker 1: the entertainment industry, from film to music and so on,

593
00:35:41,040 --> 00:35:46,319
Speaker 1: is rife with widespread, covered up sexual abuse. We do

594
00:35:46,440 --> 00:35:48,120
Speaker 1: know that, we know that we know a lot of

595
00:35:48,160 --> 00:35:50,239
Speaker 1: the people who've done that are never going to see

596
00:35:50,239 --> 00:35:52,440
Speaker 1: a day in court. They're never going to go to jail.

597
00:35:52,600 --> 00:35:53,879
Speaker 2: But some of them actually are now.

598
00:35:54,280 --> 00:35:57,640
Speaker 1: But some Yeah, a few, sure, but I guess that's

599
00:35:57,680 --> 00:36:03,600
Speaker 1: better than nothing. We also know that intelligence agencies across

600
00:36:03,640 --> 00:36:08,560
Speaker 1: the world use honeypot traps. Right, that's where you get

601
00:36:08,960 --> 00:36:12,040
Speaker 1: you get compromit, as the Russians would call it, on

602
00:36:12,120 --> 00:36:19,480
Speaker 1: someone by filming them in a sexually compromising situation, usually

603
00:36:19,560 --> 00:36:24,240
Speaker 1: with a paid professional sex worker, but occasionally with someone

604
00:36:24,239 --> 00:36:27,120
Speaker 1: who has been coerced into playing that role, like the

605
00:36:27,120 --> 00:36:30,280
Speaker 1: Ppe tape right, like the that may or may not exist,

606
00:36:30,440 --> 00:36:34,160
Speaker 1: right from the Steele dossier right for the current president.

607
00:36:34,560 --> 00:36:37,560
Speaker 1: That's that's one of the hot allegations. There is one

608
00:36:37,640 --> 00:36:41,440
Speaker 1: funny story. Because we're we're exploring some dark and disturbing things,

609
00:36:41,840 --> 00:36:47,320
Speaker 1: I can at least give us one less terrible story.

610
00:36:47,680 --> 00:36:52,360
Speaker 1: You can read this in the War Is Boring The

611
00:36:52,400 --> 00:36:57,120
Speaker 1: War Is Boring section on medium dot com by Darien Kavanaugh.

612
00:36:57,719 --> 00:37:03,920
Speaker 1: The CIA and the KGB both to blackmail Indonesia's first president,

613
00:37:03,960 --> 00:37:07,759
Speaker 1: a man who went by the name Sukarno, because Indonesia

614
00:37:07,760 --> 00:37:09,719
Speaker 1: played an important role in the Cold War between the

615
00:37:09,840 --> 00:37:12,600
Speaker 1: US and the USSR, which is all it all comes

616
00:37:12,640 --> 00:37:19,280
Speaker 1: back to that usually in this time in history, they

617
00:37:19,320 --> 00:37:25,640
Speaker 1: decided to do a honeypot scheme. The KGB operatives dressed

618
00:37:25,680 --> 00:37:31,560
Speaker 1: as flight attendants and had group sexual relations with the dictator.

619
00:37:32,080 --> 00:37:38,680
Speaker 1: And then the CIA produced a essentially a pornographic film,

620
00:37:39,280 --> 00:37:42,120
Speaker 1: and they thought that they would be able to use

621
00:37:42,160 --> 00:37:45,640
Speaker 1: this on the dictator. You know what I mean, get

622
00:37:45,680 --> 00:37:50,080
Speaker 1: in line with our ideas or we will expose you,

623
00:37:50,080 --> 00:37:57,880
Speaker 1: you dirty, dirty dog. And the problem is the problem

624
00:37:57,960 --> 00:38:00,520
Speaker 1: is into it. He was very happy be with it.

625
00:38:00,640 --> 00:38:03,640
Speaker 1: He asked for copies. He liked to show it to people.

626
00:38:04,040 --> 00:38:08,560
Speaker 1: It was like icebreaker for the It's like, look, look, look, look,

627
00:38:08,560 --> 00:38:12,440
Speaker 1: look these are flight attendants. Move yeah. Yeah, it's like,

628
00:38:12,880 --> 00:38:16,880
Speaker 1: you know, let me play that part again. Somebody rewind

629
00:38:16,920 --> 00:38:18,879
Speaker 1: this because this is like, I'm really proud of this one.

630
00:38:19,360 --> 00:38:20,480
Speaker 1: Uh So this is not.

631
00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:26,440
Speaker 2: A bunch of flight attendants get together in film, the

632
00:38:26,600 --> 00:38:27,280
Speaker 2: important people.

633
00:38:27,560 --> 00:38:31,480
Speaker 1: So uh so it did backfire, right, And I think

634
00:38:31,520 --> 00:38:34,760
Speaker 1: that's I think that's a hilarious story. It's a hilarious

635
00:38:34,760 --> 00:38:38,360
Speaker 1: story about evil people. But the reason it's important is

636
00:38:38,440 --> 00:38:44,160
Speaker 1: because it shows us that these sorts of operations do exist. However,

637
00:38:44,400 --> 00:38:47,239
Speaker 1: again to your point, Matt, there is no mention of

638
00:38:47,320 --> 00:38:50,000
Speaker 1: monarch and any MK Ultra documents, there's no mention of

639
00:38:50,080 --> 00:38:55,960
Speaker 1: monarch in anything official. Religious and political scholars criticize Kathy

640
00:38:55,960 --> 00:38:59,800
Speaker 1: O'Brien's claims because they say there is absolutely no supporting evidence,

641
00:38:59,840 --> 00:39:02,840
Speaker 1: and at this point there is absolutely no supporting evidence.

642
00:39:03,680 --> 00:39:08,480
Speaker 1: David G. Robinson characterized them as symptomatic of something called

643
00:39:09,040 --> 00:39:12,680
Speaker 1: moral panic and noted that no one has ever been

644
00:39:12,719 --> 00:39:16,120
Speaker 1: prosecuted of such crimes, nor as any corroborrety material evidence

645
00:39:16,440 --> 00:39:18,040
Speaker 1: ever been produced.

646
00:39:19,080 --> 00:39:22,399
Speaker 2: It just stinks that you can't you can't just take

647
00:39:22,440 --> 00:39:24,120
Speaker 2: that for what it is, because you have to go

648
00:39:24,200 --> 00:39:26,759
Speaker 2: back to the point of if any of this was

649
00:39:26,840 --> 00:39:30,840
Speaker 2: actually happening happening, it would be suppressed so hard that

650
00:39:31,000 --> 00:39:32,920
Speaker 2: maybe just we would never know about it.

651
00:39:33,120 --> 00:39:39,880
Speaker 1: Right. And also also even if someone who is a

652
00:39:39,920 --> 00:39:43,840
Speaker 1: survivor of abuse doesn't have all of the facts or

653
00:39:43,880 --> 00:39:48,399
Speaker 1: the dates at their command, that doesn't mean that they're lying. Yeah,

654
00:39:48,480 --> 00:39:53,680
Speaker 1: you're right, And I've brought with me today an old

655
00:39:53,719 --> 00:39:57,440
Speaker 1: friend of ours, this book Outbreak, The Encyclopedia of Extraordinary

656
00:39:57,480 --> 00:40:01,200
Speaker 1: Social Behavior, which is about moral panics and how they spread.

657
00:40:01,280 --> 00:40:06,400
Speaker 1: I highly recommend this book for anyone who is interested

658
00:40:06,719 --> 00:40:12,640
Speaker 1: in seeing just how quickly moral panics can spread. It's

659
00:40:12,680 --> 00:40:18,480
Speaker 1: always the idea of something either so morally reprehensible and

660
00:40:18,560 --> 00:40:22,240
Speaker 1: against social mores that are universally acknowledged to be good things.

661
00:40:23,080 --> 00:40:26,600
Speaker 1: So that would be stuff like cannibalism, child abuse, etc.

662
00:40:27,160 --> 00:40:32,080
Speaker 1: All the terrible, terrible things, or something that is alarming

663
00:40:32,280 --> 00:40:38,239
Speaker 1: and possibly life threatening. People are frightened because a new

664
00:40:38,320 --> 00:40:45,319
Speaker 1: report says that you will get eye cancer in two

665
00:40:45,360 --> 00:40:48,480
Speaker 1: weeks if you don't drink coffee. So the stores all

666
00:40:48,480 --> 00:40:51,960
Speaker 1: sell out at coffee. Yeah, people are fighting over coffee.

667
00:40:52,040 --> 00:40:56,200
Speaker 1: And then later the same paper that published that publishes

668
00:40:56,239 --> 00:41:00,000
Speaker 1: a retraction on page ten and no one reads it.

669
00:41:00,000 --> 00:41:03,520
Speaker 1: Coffee prices go through the roof smart evil.

670
00:41:03,680 --> 00:41:04,480
Speaker 2: Let's do it right now.

671
00:41:04,920 --> 00:41:06,920
Speaker 1: We can't we go that we do it on any guy.

672
00:41:08,680 --> 00:41:11,920
Speaker 1: So it's true though, I mean, it doesn't mean that

673
00:41:12,000 --> 00:41:16,200
Speaker 1: people are stupid. It means that we're easily led to

674
00:41:17,520 --> 00:41:19,560
Speaker 1: We have this idea of what the right thing to

675
00:41:19,640 --> 00:41:22,120
Speaker 1: do is, and we want to be on the right

676
00:41:22,160 --> 00:41:25,359
Speaker 1: side of history, right, so we will do what we can.

677
00:41:25,760 --> 00:41:30,160
Speaker 1: And sometimes we should research, research this stuff before we

678
00:41:30,200 --> 00:41:33,320
Speaker 1: react to it. And then there's another burning question. This

679
00:41:33,400 --> 00:41:37,160
Speaker 1: is a big counterpoint noel for four or against. If

680
00:41:37,400 --> 00:41:39,879
Speaker 1: this is true, if any of this is true, then

681
00:41:39,920 --> 00:41:44,239
Speaker 1: how are these project monarch survivors alive. How are they

682
00:41:44,280 --> 00:41:47,640
Speaker 1: publishing books? How are they writing about this and not

683
00:41:47,920 --> 00:41:51,160
Speaker 1: you know, committing suicide by getting tied into a duffel

684
00:41:51,160 --> 00:41:53,400
Speaker 1: bag or having shot themselves twice in the back of

685
00:41:53,440 --> 00:41:53,880
Speaker 1: the head.

686
00:41:54,040 --> 00:41:56,360
Speaker 3: Because it's not entirely.

687
00:41:56,040 --> 00:41:59,920
Speaker 1: True, I'm asking like, it seems like if there were

688
00:42:00,000 --> 00:42:04,600
Speaker 1: an organization this powerful, this story would never have gotten out. Right.

689
00:42:05,080 --> 00:42:09,000
Speaker 5: It certainly does seem like that, especially considering the purging

690
00:42:09,239 --> 00:42:10,000
Speaker 5: that went down.

691
00:42:10,239 --> 00:42:13,480
Speaker 1: You know, great first place, Yeah, great point.

692
00:42:13,920 --> 00:42:15,160
Speaker 3: So where is this name coming from?

693
00:42:15,239 --> 00:42:17,080
Speaker 5: I mean, there was no the name wasn't in any

694
00:42:17,160 --> 00:42:19,799
Speaker 5: kind of any kind of documentation. Where does this begin

695
00:42:19,840 --> 00:42:22,399
Speaker 5: to circulate? Do we even have an origin for that?

696
00:42:22,480 --> 00:42:24,120
Speaker 5: The way this information got out into.

697
00:42:23,920 --> 00:42:27,879
Speaker 1: The public record primarily from people who say that they

698
00:42:27,920 --> 00:42:30,640
Speaker 1: survived the program, So anecdotes.

699
00:42:31,280 --> 00:42:33,879
Speaker 5: And are they corroborated, Like are they people who knew

700
00:42:33,920 --> 00:42:37,799
Speaker 5: each other or I mean just wondering if there is

701
00:42:38,280 --> 00:42:41,080
Speaker 5: any connection between these people or this is interesting.

702
00:42:41,200 --> 00:42:44,840
Speaker 1: It's tricky because it goes back to the hypnotic regression question.

703
00:42:46,600 --> 00:42:50,759
Speaker 1: There may well be people who say they knew each

704
00:42:50,800 --> 00:42:55,359
Speaker 1: other now but their story changed as their sessions continued.

705
00:42:56,040 --> 00:43:00,000
Speaker 1: There were also stories of people so in the universe

706
00:43:00,200 --> 00:43:04,239
Speaker 1: of this people are not meeting one another under their

707
00:43:04,280 --> 00:43:08,200
Speaker 1: real names. You're nine years old, you meet a ten

708
00:43:08,320 --> 00:43:11,359
Speaker 1: year old who is called different names. These horrific things

709
00:43:11,400 --> 00:43:13,800
Speaker 1: occur to you. You never see a ten year old again,

710
00:43:14,520 --> 00:43:18,200
Speaker 1: but you learned that they have died. So it has

711
00:43:18,360 --> 00:43:24,400
Speaker 1: baked in difficulty when it comes to tracking or corroborating things.

712
00:43:25,800 --> 00:43:30,360
Speaker 1: And it's part of the Satanic panic, honestly, the moral

713
00:43:30,400 --> 00:43:33,640
Speaker 1: panic that swept through the US and really peaked in

714
00:43:33,680 --> 00:43:37,480
Speaker 1: the nineteen eighties. If you were around in the nineteen eighties,

715
00:43:38,200 --> 00:43:42,040
Speaker 1: then you know about this, right D and D was

716
00:43:43,480 --> 00:43:47,840
Speaker 1: a herald of dark Satanic times to come. Everybody with

717
00:43:48,000 --> 00:43:52,760
Speaker 1: any sort of authority that was not religious, any secular power,

718
00:43:53,280 --> 00:43:56,720
Speaker 1: was part of the Illuminati. They were dressing in robes,

719
00:43:56,960 --> 00:44:00,640
Speaker 1: they were circling around. There were killing goats, children, eating people,

720
00:44:00,960 --> 00:44:05,920
Speaker 1: human flesh. They were doing bohemian grove stuff, but not

721
00:44:06,080 --> 00:44:09,919
Speaker 1: with an effigy with people. Those are the ideas. This

722
00:44:10,040 --> 00:44:15,160
Speaker 1: made some big careers in journalism and in the publishing world,

723
00:44:15,920 --> 00:44:20,240
Speaker 1: and at this point still despite all the public attention,

724
00:44:20,440 --> 00:44:25,480
Speaker 1: there's been no evidence of a widespread event of this nature.

725
00:44:25,719 --> 00:44:28,480
Speaker 1: And that's an important point because it's not like it's

726
00:44:28,680 --> 00:44:33,440
Speaker 1: just the five of us, you know, you listening, the

727
00:44:33,480 --> 00:44:35,600
Speaker 1: three of us and the mission control. It's not like

728
00:44:35,600 --> 00:44:39,719
Speaker 1: it's just five people looking into this. This was a nation.

729
00:44:40,480 --> 00:44:43,719
Speaker 1: These were news networks. They were pouring millions into this

730
00:44:43,800 --> 00:44:48,360
Speaker 1: search and they came up with buppkis. There have, however,

731
00:44:48,960 --> 00:44:53,600
Speaker 1: been several cases of child abuse networks functioning in the

732
00:44:53,600 --> 00:44:58,439
Speaker 1: halls of power in Belgium, in the US, in the UK.

733
00:45:00,040 --> 00:45:03,400
Speaker 1: These abuse networks are real, they're just not necessarily satanic,

734
00:45:03,480 --> 00:45:06,319
Speaker 1: and they're not necessarily tied to intelligence agencies, at least

735
00:45:06,320 --> 00:45:07,120
Speaker 1: the ones we found.

736
00:45:07,520 --> 00:45:08,799
Speaker 3: Yeah, and the.

737
00:45:10,719 --> 00:45:15,920
Speaker 2: Satanic angle is almost like an This is one way

738
00:45:15,960 --> 00:45:19,520
Speaker 2: to think about it. If you place Satanism and the

739
00:45:19,560 --> 00:45:22,720
Speaker 2: devil and that kind of evil on top of something

740
00:45:22,840 --> 00:45:26,360
Speaker 2: like this that may even be provable with in some

741
00:45:26,480 --> 00:45:31,759
Speaker 2: way or another or spoken about by enough people, if

742
00:45:31,800 --> 00:45:35,120
Speaker 2: you place those labels on it, it becomes so crazy

743
00:45:35,160 --> 00:45:39,839
Speaker 2: and out there that it almost becomes impossible that these

744
00:45:39,920 --> 00:45:43,360
Speaker 2: kinds of abuse networks could function at that level.

745
00:45:43,400 --> 00:45:43,600
Speaker 1: Right.

746
00:45:44,080 --> 00:45:46,760
Speaker 2: It makes you believe that it's impossible when you bring

747
00:45:47,360 --> 00:45:50,120
Speaker 2: the devil and evil into it like that, rather than

748
00:45:50,160 --> 00:45:52,440
Speaker 2: it just being a group of powerful people that have

749
00:45:53,320 --> 00:45:58,160
Speaker 2: really messed up things that they like to do. Does

750
00:45:58,200 --> 00:45:59,040
Speaker 2: that make any sense?

751
00:45:59,200 --> 00:46:02,440
Speaker 5: Does not mentioned that the whole idea of like secret

752
00:46:02,520 --> 00:46:06,600
Speaker 5: Satanic organizations has been time and time again disproven, Like

753
00:46:06,640 --> 00:46:09,200
Speaker 5: the idea of like the whole Satanic panic thing. It's

754
00:46:09,239 --> 00:46:12,239
Speaker 5: a panic because no one's really doing in the way

755
00:46:12,239 --> 00:46:13,640
Speaker 5: that you might think, you know what I'm saying, like

756
00:46:13,640 --> 00:46:16,680
Speaker 5: even like the child murders at robin Hood Hill or whatever,

757
00:46:16,880 --> 00:46:20,480
Speaker 5: Like the idea that there are groups of quote unquote

758
00:46:20,520 --> 00:46:24,040
Speaker 5: Satan worshippers that are doing human sacrifices and stuff. I

759
00:46:24,080 --> 00:46:27,319
Speaker 5: mean always to me, what's been proven out is that

760
00:46:27,360 --> 00:46:29,640
Speaker 5: it's much more of a form of protest and kind

761
00:46:29,640 --> 00:46:32,400
Speaker 5: of like a middle finger to the man and like

762
00:46:32,480 --> 00:46:34,759
Speaker 5: you know, organized religion than it is some kind of

763
00:46:34,800 --> 00:46:39,640
Speaker 5: shadowy cabal doing rituals in like a dungeon somewhere right.

764
00:46:40,120 --> 00:46:43,520
Speaker 1: And the thing is that these two things are these

765
00:46:43,560 --> 00:46:48,720
Speaker 1: two practices are often conflated. There are criminals like Jeffrey

766
00:46:48,719 --> 00:46:53,319
Speaker 1: Epstein who repeatedly abuse children, and they can have cover

767
00:46:53,440 --> 00:46:57,760
Speaker 1: ups occur, like Jeffrey Epstein who again repeatedly abused children

768
00:46:57,800 --> 00:47:01,240
Speaker 1: and as of now totally got away with it. Then

769
00:47:01,400 --> 00:47:07,480
Speaker 1: there are groups who are pursuing a religious or ceremonial thing,

770
00:47:07,880 --> 00:47:09,880
Speaker 1: you know what I mean. Like they get to like

771
00:47:10,040 --> 00:47:14,120
Speaker 1: Anton Leavey is not a deistic Satanist. It's not someone

772
00:47:14,120 --> 00:47:19,080
Speaker 1: who acknowledges the existence of a Judeo Christian Islamic God.

773
00:47:19,480 --> 00:47:24,000
Speaker 1: And then some adversary incided with the bad guy. And

774
00:47:24,040 --> 00:47:27,880
Speaker 1: they're very much against any kind of abuse. You know,

775
00:47:28,200 --> 00:47:31,719
Speaker 1: they get a bad rap, but absolutely, but we do

776
00:47:31,840 --> 00:47:37,360
Speaker 1: know that there are times when this sort of child

777
00:47:37,400 --> 00:47:42,839
Speaker 1: abuse draped in Satanic ritual has occurred. True Detective Season one,

778
00:47:43,440 --> 00:47:47,560
Speaker 1: which is fantastic, seems at least partially inspired by a

779
00:47:47,719 --> 00:47:50,640
Speaker 1: genuine child abuse network that operated out of a church

780
00:47:50,920 --> 00:47:55,359
Speaker 1: in Ponchatoula, Louisiana. For the record, the creator of the show,

781
00:47:55,520 --> 00:47:59,200
Speaker 1: Nick Pizolado, initially said I had no idea this was

782
00:47:59,239 --> 00:48:02,160
Speaker 1: a thing. I don't know what you're talking about, but also.

783
00:48:02,160 --> 00:48:04,440
Speaker 5: Said that about a couple other aspects we sort of

784
00:48:04,480 --> 00:48:07,280
Speaker 5: lifted for that first season too, right right, right exactly

785
00:48:07,400 --> 00:48:11,120
Speaker 5: some of the philosophical writings that Rust Cole's character spouted.

786
00:48:11,360 --> 00:48:12,759
Speaker 5: I don't remember who it was, but it was sort

787
00:48:12,760 --> 00:48:15,400
Speaker 5: of a modern day philosophy guy who he kind of

788
00:48:15,440 --> 00:48:16,920
Speaker 5: lifted some of those lines.

789
00:48:16,600 --> 00:48:20,919
Speaker 1: From absolutely and maybe he should have just come clean

790
00:48:20,960 --> 00:48:24,200
Speaker 1: and been transparent about it. But we also know there's

791
00:48:24,200 --> 00:48:27,440
Speaker 1: an elephant in the room. Several of us listening are saying,

792
00:48:28,480 --> 00:48:30,279
Speaker 1: how are you guys going to talk about this kind

793
00:48:30,280 --> 00:48:34,239
Speaker 1: of stuff and not mention the Catholic Church. Members of

794
00:48:34,280 --> 00:48:37,640
Speaker 1: the Catholic Church actively covered up numerous cases of child

795
00:48:37,719 --> 00:48:41,640
Speaker 1: abuse for at the very very least decades. And if

796
00:48:41,680 --> 00:48:46,319
Speaker 1: current behavior or recent behavior was any indication that we're

797
00:48:46,360 --> 00:48:50,920
Speaker 1: looking at a phenomenon that goes back centuries and.

798
00:48:50,960 --> 00:48:53,560
Speaker 2: It's so widespread that it's at the very top of

799
00:48:53,600 --> 00:48:55,120
Speaker 2: the organizational structure.

800
00:48:55,760 --> 00:48:59,280
Speaker 1: Right, So the more cynical among us will often regard

801
00:48:59,360 --> 00:49:02,799
Speaker 1: monarch claim as either a delusion, an indication of being

802
00:49:02,840 --> 00:49:06,120
Speaker 1: mentally unwell, or blatant cash grab. But there's no denying

803
00:49:06,160 --> 00:49:08,839
Speaker 1: child abuse is real. There's no indication that the US

804
00:49:08,920 --> 00:49:11,920
Speaker 1: government actively poured money into a program designed to brainwash

805
00:49:12,000 --> 00:49:15,319
Speaker 1: people through the abuse of minors. And this brings up

806
00:49:15,320 --> 00:49:19,040
Speaker 1: the phenomenon that we're we've explored before, but it's key

807
00:49:19,080 --> 00:49:21,600
Speaker 1: to this, and we've been we've been getting closer and

808
00:49:21,640 --> 00:49:24,600
Speaker 1: closer to that in this episode. The problem of individual

809
00:49:24,719 --> 00:49:29,480
Speaker 1: actors versus institutional actors make up a name for a.

810
00:49:29,440 --> 00:49:33,600
Speaker 2: Politician, Kringle Rickenbuck.

811
00:49:33,920 --> 00:49:41,920
Speaker 1: Okay, So Kringle Rickenback, representative in uh Idaho is found

812
00:49:41,960 --> 00:49:46,680
Speaker 1: to be committing flagrant, repeated acts of abuse of some

813
00:49:46,800 --> 00:49:50,960
Speaker 1: kind of abuse. Okay, and Kringle Rickenbach turns out it

814
00:49:50,960 --> 00:49:53,760
Speaker 1: has been getting really weird with it too. He wears

815
00:49:53,760 --> 00:49:57,000
Speaker 1: some kind of ritual mask. He's got a robe and

816
00:49:56,800 --> 00:49:59,959
Speaker 1: a apron, a little dance he does before he eats

817
00:50:00,080 --> 00:50:04,839
Speaker 1: people whatever. He's really messed up guy. But even even

818
00:50:04,840 --> 00:50:07,920
Speaker 1: though he's proven to have committed these, he goes to jail.

819
00:50:08,080 --> 00:50:13,000
Speaker 1: He's insane. And this doesn't mean that the government or

820
00:50:13,080 --> 00:50:16,239
Speaker 1: the constituency he represented co signed this in any way.

821
00:50:16,840 --> 00:50:20,279
Speaker 1: They were voting for him because of his stance on

822
00:50:20,560 --> 00:50:23,799
Speaker 1: taxes and they did not know he was accountable. So

823
00:50:23,840 --> 00:50:27,080
Speaker 1: he's an individual actor. However, let's take a real world case,

824
00:50:27,640 --> 00:50:30,680
Speaker 1: in the case of Jimmy Saville or several Catholic priests,

825
00:50:31,520 --> 00:50:36,319
Speaker 1: there's an institution that actively aids and abets the criminals involved.

826
00:50:36,520 --> 00:50:40,959
Speaker 1: The Catholic Church covered up for sexual abusers, and high

827
00:50:41,000 --> 00:50:47,760
Speaker 1: society in England, including law enforcement and including the government,

828
00:50:47,920 --> 00:50:53,160
Speaker 1: right parliament, media, corporations of UBC. They covered up this,

829
00:50:53,360 --> 00:50:57,680
Speaker 1: these crimes, and that means it's a matter of institutional actors.

830
00:50:59,080 --> 00:51:01,919
Speaker 1: So the big question and is people in the US

831
00:51:02,000 --> 00:51:06,120
Speaker 1: government were doing horrific, dirty things. Were they doing it

832
00:51:06,600 --> 00:51:09,880
Speaker 1: as individuals or were they doing it as representatives of

833
00:51:09,920 --> 00:51:12,840
Speaker 1: an institution. That's the big question, and it's tough to answer.

834
00:51:13,560 --> 00:51:15,600
Speaker 1: But we do have some good news, at least for

835
00:51:15,840 --> 00:51:17,680
Speaker 1: people seeking justice in Canada.

836
00:51:18,160 --> 00:51:21,919
Speaker 2: Remember that lawsuit we mentioned at the top of this section, Well,

837
00:51:22,000 --> 00:51:27,399
Speaker 2: let's get into that a little bit. So the court

838
00:51:27,400 --> 00:51:30,279
Speaker 2: still has to certify certain things about this, right, but

839
00:51:31,360 --> 00:51:34,680
Speaker 2: here's some quotations some things we know about it thus far.

840
00:51:35,360 --> 00:51:40,480
Speaker 2: So there's this doctor and doctor Cameron, and the lawsuit

841
00:51:40,520 --> 00:51:46,359
Speaker 2: states that his tactics were nothing more than an electronic lobotomy,

842
00:51:47,160 --> 00:51:49,080
Speaker 2: and it also claims that he damaged a lot of

843
00:51:49,080 --> 00:51:53,600
Speaker 2: his other patients' brains and shattered their psychees and left

844
00:51:53,640 --> 00:51:58,200
Speaker 2: them unable to function in a society and within their families.

845
00:51:58,719 --> 00:52:02,480
Speaker 2: So this one doctor came Cameron, really did some seemingly

846
00:52:02,520 --> 00:52:05,360
Speaker 2: horrific things, at least according to the lawsuit, right.

847
00:52:05,520 --> 00:52:09,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, And he died. He has since passed

848
00:52:09,760 --> 00:52:13,560
Speaker 1: away of a heart attack in nineteen ninety two. The

849
00:52:13,600 --> 00:52:16,880
Speaker 1: government of Canada paid seventy seven of his victims a

850
00:52:16,920 --> 00:52:20,320
Speaker 1: settlement of one hundred thousand dollars and rejected the claims

851
00:52:20,360 --> 00:52:23,160
Speaker 1: of more than two hundred and fifty others.

852
00:52:23,520 --> 00:52:23,800
Speaker 3: Wow.

853
00:52:23,840 --> 00:52:29,239
Speaker 2: So maybe just the most egregious offending moments, I guess.

854
00:52:29,160 --> 00:52:32,200
Speaker 1: And probably the way that large governments were people who

855
00:52:32,200 --> 00:52:35,200
Speaker 1: could provide a paper trail proving where they were and win.

856
00:52:36,640 --> 00:52:41,759
Speaker 1: The case may go to court, hopefully it will, but

857
00:52:42,040 --> 00:52:45,319
Speaker 1: according to the National Post, the Government of Canada is

858
00:52:45,400 --> 00:52:49,480
Speaker 1: going to be in an antagonistic position for the course

859
00:52:49,520 --> 00:52:52,560
Speaker 1: of this legal proceeding. The Government of Canada asked a

860
00:52:52,600 --> 00:52:55,000
Speaker 1: third party, a guy named George T. H. Cooper, to

861
00:52:55,120 --> 00:52:58,720
Speaker 1: conduct an inquiry into doctor Cameron's depatterning work between nineteen

862
00:52:58,760 --> 00:53:01,960
Speaker 1: fifty and sixty five, and this Cooper report, which was

863
00:53:02,160 --> 00:53:05,360
Speaker 1: concluded in nineteen eighty six, said that Canada did not

864
00:53:05,440 --> 00:53:09,920
Speaker 1: hold any legal liability or moral responsibility in respect to

865
00:53:09,960 --> 00:53:14,600
Speaker 1: these treatments. So Canada said, uh.

866
00:53:14,840 --> 00:53:15,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, hands up.

867
00:53:15,719 --> 00:53:18,120
Speaker 1: We're both throwing our hands up like that. Canada says

868
00:53:17,880 --> 00:53:22,840
Speaker 1: not us, not us, and McGill University Health Center also

869
00:53:22,960 --> 00:53:25,640
Speaker 1: said Cameron carried out these experiments, but they were not

870
00:53:25,760 --> 00:53:29,880
Speaker 1: responsible for his actions. So they're also saying not us.

871
00:53:29,400 --> 00:53:31,840
Speaker 2: Not us bad Apple, not us bad.

872
00:53:31,680 --> 00:53:35,560
Speaker 1: Apple, not an institution an individual. And this leads to

873
00:53:36,520 --> 00:53:39,640
Speaker 1: some conclusions, or as close as we can get at

874
00:53:39,640 --> 00:53:42,719
Speaker 1: this point. Missing information about mk Ultra will continue to

875
00:53:42,760 --> 00:53:49,080
Speaker 1: feed conspiratorial theories, claims, anecdotes and so on, and we

876
00:53:49,560 --> 00:53:54,600
Speaker 1: probably won't be We can disprove some stuff, but we

877
00:53:54,640 --> 00:53:57,880
Speaker 1: will never be able to fully understand what mk ultra

878
00:53:58,040 --> 00:53:59,880
Speaker 1: actually did exactly.

879
00:54:01,000 --> 00:54:06,520
Speaker 2: And there, you know, it's so funny. The lack of

880
00:54:06,560 --> 00:54:09,279
Speaker 2: transparency here is the big issue, at least from the

881
00:54:09,320 --> 00:54:14,400
Speaker 2: government side. If these documents were available at some point

882
00:54:14,520 --> 00:54:17,920
Speaker 2: for everybody to see them, it would be more of

883
00:54:17,960 --> 00:54:21,319
Speaker 2: a oh wow, look at what we did back then.

884
00:54:21,520 --> 00:54:22,600
Speaker 2: That's pretty brutal.

885
00:54:22,880 --> 00:54:23,439
Speaker 3: Oh man.

886
00:54:23,800 --> 00:54:26,400
Speaker 2: I hope we at least gained some knowledge from that,

887
00:54:26,520 --> 00:54:29,520
Speaker 2: from putting all these people through this terrible trauma. Hopefully

888
00:54:29,520 --> 00:54:32,719
Speaker 2: we can get some justice for those people. But now

889
00:54:32,760 --> 00:54:39,800
Speaker 2: it's just it's just a breeding ground for much worse

890
00:54:40,080 --> 00:54:42,920
Speaker 2: ideas because of that lack of transparency.

891
00:54:43,000 --> 00:54:46,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. We can keep an eye on the Canadian lawsuit.

892
00:54:47,080 --> 00:54:51,799
Speaker 1: Legally speaking, that's the only thing continuing right now and

893
00:54:51,920 --> 00:54:56,080
Speaker 1: maybe maybe we'll learn some more information about a specific

894
00:54:57,040 --> 00:54:59,840
Speaker 1: project of MK Ultra. Right, and maybe that's how we

895
00:54:59,840 --> 00:55:03,319
Speaker 1: get things. Maybe we collect breadcrumbs. But that means it

896
00:55:03,360 --> 00:55:05,280
Speaker 1: takes a long time to build the whole loaf.

897
00:55:05,400 --> 00:55:07,840
Speaker 2: You know, it sounds like a whole podcast.

898
00:55:08,920 --> 00:55:11,120
Speaker 1: It just a podcast on figuring out.

899
00:55:11,120 --> 00:55:15,000
Speaker 5: Figuring out Well, we had talked about having Russell tark

900
00:55:15,120 --> 00:55:15,480
Speaker 5: back on.

901
00:55:15,800 --> 00:55:16,360
Speaker 1: That's true.

902
00:55:16,600 --> 00:55:18,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, it could be just a thing.

903
00:55:18,400 --> 00:55:20,719
Speaker 2: Let's just get him to host a show where he

904
00:55:20,880 --> 00:55:24,360
Speaker 2: remote views to track down the scientists who are involved

905
00:55:24,400 --> 00:55:28,920
Speaker 2: in MK Ultra programs and then does hypnotic regression on

906
00:55:28,960 --> 00:55:33,000
Speaker 2: them and or remote viewing with them and teaches them

907
00:55:33,239 --> 00:55:34,320
Speaker 2: to go back and remember.

908
00:55:35,360 --> 00:55:38,560
Speaker 1: I like the pitch. Let's do it so also, I mean, also,

909
00:55:38,600 --> 00:55:42,680
Speaker 1: we are reaching the point where, just due to the

910
00:55:42,680 --> 00:55:46,359
Speaker 1: limitations of human life span, a lot of people who

911
00:55:46,400 --> 00:55:49,600
Speaker 1: could make a deathbed confession have already died. You know

912
00:55:49,640 --> 00:55:50,080
Speaker 1: what I mean?

913
00:55:50,160 --> 00:55:50,680
Speaker 3: There we go.

914
00:55:51,239 --> 00:55:55,200
Speaker 1: We do want to include on a on a last note,

915
00:55:55,800 --> 00:55:59,320
Speaker 1: one of the most important things in any episode dealing

916
00:55:59,360 --> 00:56:03,400
Speaker 1: with this sort of subject matter is this, If you

917
00:56:03,520 --> 00:56:06,400
Speaker 1: are a survivor of abuse, or if you know someone

918
00:56:06,680 --> 00:56:11,919
Speaker 1: who has survived abuse, please be aware that you are

919
00:56:12,280 --> 00:56:17,960
Speaker 1: not alone. There are numerous organizations, both government funded and private,

920
00:56:18,520 --> 00:56:21,440
Speaker 1: that are there for you to provide free counseling, to

921
00:56:21,520 --> 00:56:25,520
Speaker 1: provide resources, to provide therapy. We do hope that you

922
00:56:26,320 --> 00:56:29,000
Speaker 1: reach out to these sources. They are there for you.

923
00:56:29,480 --> 00:56:31,440
Speaker 1: There is someone waiting to.

924
00:56:31,520 --> 00:56:35,080
Speaker 2: Help you, absolutely and if you want to.

925
00:56:35,440 --> 00:56:38,640
Speaker 1: And that's our classic episode for this evening. We can't

926
00:56:38,640 --> 00:56:40,319
Speaker 1: wait to hear your thoughts. We try to be easy

927
00:56:40,360 --> 00:56:41,080
Speaker 1: to find online.

928
00:56:41,120 --> 00:56:43,400
Speaker 5: Find it in the handle conspiracy Stuff, where we exist

929
00:56:43,440 --> 00:56:46,760
Speaker 5: on Facebook X and YouTube, on Instagram and TikTok.

930
00:56:46,760 --> 00:56:49,160
Speaker 3: We're conspiracy Stuff. Show call our number.

931
00:56:49,200 --> 00:56:54,920
Speaker 2: It's one eight three three std WYTK, leave a voicemail.

932
00:56:54,440 --> 00:56:56,480
Speaker 1: And if you have more to say, we can't wait

933
00:56:56,520 --> 00:56:58,600
Speaker 1: to hear from you at our good old fashioned email

934
00:56:58,640 --> 00:57:02,640
Speaker 1: address where we are conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com.

935
00:57:02,800 --> 00:57:04,840
Speaker 2: Stuff they Don't Want You to Know is a production

936
00:57:04,960 --> 00:57:09,479
Speaker 2: of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

937
00:57:09,560 --> 00:57:12,440
Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.