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Speaker 1: On this episode of news World. There is an amazing

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Speaker 1: amount of change going on at the state level with

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Speaker 1: real reforms that are increasing parental opportunities to know what's

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Speaker 1: going on with their children in school, increasing opportunities for

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Speaker 1: people to take the money and take it to a

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Speaker 1: different school if the one their child is in right

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Speaker 1: now is failing, and really deep thought about the nature

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Speaker 1: of what we have to do as a country in

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Speaker 1: order for our young people to grow up and be

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Speaker 1: both educated as citizens and educated in the workforce. I

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Speaker 1: think it's really important, and these changes in many ways

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Speaker 1: are being accelerated by the work of the American Legislative

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Speaker 1: Exchange Council, which is an organization of state legislators in

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Speaker 1: all fifty states. So I'm really delighted to have a

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Speaker 1: chance to talk with Andrew Handel, who's the director of

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Speaker 1: the Education and Workforce Development Task Force at ALEC or

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Speaker 1: the American Legislative Exchange Council. He is an expert on

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Speaker 1: education weed in the United States, and he is really

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Speaker 1: doing a great job knitting together people who in favor

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Speaker 1: of reform in all fifty states. Andrew, welcome and thank

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Speaker 1: you for joining me on Newtsworld.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely thanks for having me on, mister speaker.

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Speaker 1: Tell us a little bit about the Education Workforce Development

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Speaker 1: task Force and what it is you're trying to accomplish.

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Speaker 2: Our Education Workforce Development task Force here at the American

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Speaker 2: Legislative Exchange Council is made up of both public sector

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Speaker 2: state lawmakers who have an interest in education policy, as

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Speaker 2: well as some private sector members. Our goal at ALEC

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Speaker 2: is to be a convener. We want to bring together

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Speaker 2: those public and private sector thought leaders and make sure

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Speaker 2: that the best ideas are being exchanged and even the

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Speaker 2: worst ideas are being discussed, so that lawmakers around the

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Speaker 2: country can learn from those experiences as well. Our goal

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Speaker 2: on the education policy side is to promote education freedom

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Speaker 2: for every single student across America. We strongly believe that

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Speaker 2: public dollars should follow students, not systems, and parents should

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Speaker 2: ultimately be the ones empowered and in charge when it

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Speaker 2: comes to their kids' education, not bureaucracies and unions.

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Speaker 1: Could you just talk a little bit about alecaself and

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Speaker 1: it's a mission and the scale of its membership.

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Speaker 2: We're actually going to be celebrating our fiftieth anniversary this year.

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Speaker 2: We've been around for quite some time, but we are

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Speaker 2: the nation's largest non partisan organization that has a membership

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Speaker 2: component of state lawmakers. We want to be a convener.

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Speaker 2: We bring together those thought leaders from across the country,

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Speaker 2: state lawmakers, private business, nonprofits, and our goal is to

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Speaker 2: just discuss best practices, share experiences so that we can

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Speaker 2: learn from one another and learn what different states are doing.

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Speaker 1: Do you have state legislators from all fifty states? We

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Speaker 1: do yes, so literally you sort of connect the country

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Speaker 1: in an idea sense, we do absolutely. And about how

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Speaker 1: many members do you have right now state legislative.

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Speaker 2: Members twenty five percent of all the country's state lawmakers.

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Speaker 2: From across the policy spectrum.

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Speaker 1: Every fourth state legislator in the whole country has some

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Speaker 1: tie back to ALEC and they work on a series

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Speaker 1: of policy areas. And the one you work on is

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Speaker 1: on education freedom. Could you talk for learn about this

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Speaker 1: whole concept of education freedom.

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Speaker 2: For years, America has followed the system of public education

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Speaker 2: where students are assigned to a school based on nothing

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Speaker 2: more than a street address or a zip code. The

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Speaker 2: idea behind education freedom is to break away from that.

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Speaker 2: Instead of making that determination based on an address, we

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Speaker 2: want to be putting parents in charge. We want them

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Speaker 2: to be empowered to say, you know what, I think

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Speaker 2: my student is going to do better at a nearby

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Speaker 2: private school or a charter school, or maybe I want

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Speaker 2: a homeschool my kids. We believe that all those options

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Speaker 2: should be on the table for parents to choose from,

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Speaker 2: and they should never find themselves in a situation where

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Speaker 2: their only choice is their local public school, whether because

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Speaker 2: of lack of other options or lack of finances, if

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Speaker 2: they can't afford some of those other choices.

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Speaker 1: So from that standpoint, you've been really gaining ground at

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Speaker 1: the state level, as I understand that you're both expanding

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Speaker 1: the concept of sort of universal education savings accounts, and

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Speaker 1: you're taking on some of the more controversial questions about

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Speaker 1: the way the curriculum has evolved in public schools. Let's

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Speaker 1: talk first about this concept of a universal education saving account.

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Speaker 1: How does that work?

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Speaker 2: Education savings accounts are accounts that parents control where the

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Speaker 2: money goes. So the state government will take whatever amount

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Speaker 2: of money they were going to spend to teach that

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Speaker 2: student in their public school, instead of sending it to

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Speaker 2: that public school, they'll put it into an account that

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Speaker 2: the parent gets too direct, So there's a wide variety

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Speaker 2: of pre approved educational expense. Is that the money can

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Speaker 2: be used for not just private school tuition, but standardized

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Speaker 2: testing fees, special therapies for students with a disability. There's

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Speaker 2: a laundry list of things that parents can use it for.

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Speaker 2: And most importantly, parents are in charge. They're the ones

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Speaker 2: that get to direct that money in a way that

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Speaker 2: maximizes their child's education.

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Speaker 1: What's the primary pushback against having universal savings accounts?

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Speaker 2: The main opposition that we hear is that these policies

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Speaker 2: will dismantle public education or defund public education. And of

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Speaker 2: course nothing could be further from the truth. If a

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Speaker 2: parent likes their public school, they can keep their student there.

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Speaker 2: There's not a requirement that they have to go elsewhere.

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Speaker 2: The purpose of an education savings account program is simply

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Speaker 2: to make sure that those other options are available to them.

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Speaker 2: That's the main opposition that we hear. It's often very hyperbolic.

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Speaker 2: These policies aren't going to destroy public schools. The reality is,

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Speaker 2: if you are zoned to a good public school, you

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Speaker 2: can still keep going to that public school.

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Speaker 1: It seems to be almost everywhere that the teachers' unions

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Speaker 1: are deeply opposed to it that they do not want

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Speaker 1: parents to have access to money, and they don't want

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Speaker 1: parents to have access frankly to the curriculum.

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Speaker 2: We do see a lot of opposition from teachers unions

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Speaker 2: from across the country, and as I mentioned, we hear

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Speaker 2: the funding argument a lot. But if you really look

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Speaker 2: at it, if the money follows the student to a

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Speaker 2: different school, it's true that the total amount of funding

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Speaker 2: going to that public school will decline, but that's also

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Speaker 2: one less student that that school now has to teach,

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Speaker 2: so they shouldn't need that money anyways. And it's also

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Speaker 2: important to note that the local money stays with the

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Speaker 2: public school, and in a lot of cases, the federal

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Speaker 2: money stays with the public school. Even though the state

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Speaker 2: portion of funding is going to follow that student to

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Speaker 2: whatever school is best for them, public schools still benefit

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Speaker 2: because now they've gotten more money to spend on the

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Speaker 2: students that are there, and they can better use those

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Speaker 2: resources and a much more efficient.

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Speaker 1: It's really in some ways the crisis in terms of

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Speaker 1: some of our cities. There was a study in twenty

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Speaker 1: twenty two the Maryland Comprehensive Assessment Program that found that

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Speaker 1: there were twenty three schools in Baltimore City in which

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Speaker 1: no one could do math, zero could do math, and

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Speaker 1: other twenty schools had just one or two students testing proficient.

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Speaker 1: So I think it was something like seven percent of

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Speaker 1: the third three eighth graders were professional math. Ninety three

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Speaker 1: percent could not do math at the grade level. And

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Speaker 1: it's not just a Baltimore problem. In Illinois, there were

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Speaker 1: fifty three schools where not a single student could do

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Speaker 1: math at grade level. In Los Angeles Unified School District,

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Speaker 1: which is an enormous district, there were students who lost

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Speaker 1: five years of academic ground during remote learning due to COVID.

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Speaker 1: That is, whatever they knew before COVID hit, they actually

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Speaker 1: dropped below this not just they didn't learn better about

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Speaker 1: where they should go, They actually drove in the capacity

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Speaker 1: from where they had been when they were started. It

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Speaker 1: seems saying that these require some kind of profound changes,

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Speaker 1: and that part of what you're trying to do. I

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Speaker 1: had alec is develop programs that allow parents to not

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Speaker 1: have their child be trapped in a school where nobody

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Speaker 1: can do math. Would that be a fair summary?

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Speaker 2: Exactly, that's exactly right. One of the more common arguments

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Speaker 2: that we hear in some of those school districts, as

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Speaker 2: you just mentioned in Baltimore, for example, where no students

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Speaker 2: in a number of these schools are able to do math.

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Speaker 2: One of the more common arguments that we hear is

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Speaker 2: what we need to put more money into these schools.

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Speaker 2: And the reality is America on average, spends fifteen to

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Speaker 2: sixteen thousand dollars per student per year. We already spend

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Speaker 2: massive amounts. In a lot of states K through twelve,

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Speaker 2: education is the second largest portion of their budget. What

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Speaker 2: we really try to do in promoting these ESA or

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Speaker 2: education savings account policies, is let's figure out how we

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Speaker 2: can use that money more efficiently. Right, It's not that

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Speaker 2: we need to put more money into these schools, It's

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Speaker 2: that we need to make sure the money is following

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Speaker 2: the student so that parents in those poorly performing districts,

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Speaker 2: for example, are able to find alternatives so that their

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Speaker 2: children can succeed and have an equal chance as everyone else.

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Speaker 1: Back in twenty eleven, Arizona became the first state to

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Speaker 1: create an education Savings Account program, and as I understand it,

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Speaker 1: they initially started just for students with special needs, but

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Speaker 1: it has been so successful that they have steadily expanded.

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Speaker 1: It is that sort of the model from an ALC perspective.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it is, and you're exactly right. Last year, Arizona

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Speaker 2: became the first state in the country to implement a

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Speaker 2: universal ESA program. It started off as being limited for

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Speaker 2: students with special needs, but it was such a successful

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Speaker 2: program and the results were so good that the Arizona

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Speaker 2: legislature last year decided to expand it to every single

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Speaker 2: student in the state, regardless of income, disability status, geography.

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Speaker 2: As long as they're an Arizona student, they get to

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Speaker 2: take advantage of it.

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Speaker 1: They since have elected a liberal governor. Do you have

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Speaker 1: any sense of whether they're going to try to roll

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Speaker 1: that back or whether they could roll that back?

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Speaker 2: Unfortunately, I'm not sure. I know that Governor Hobbs is

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Speaker 2: not a fan of the program. She's talked about potentially

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Speaker 2: pulling some funding from that, but my understanding is that

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Speaker 2: the legislature still gets to have the final say on that,

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Speaker 2: So that being the case, I'd be surprised if it

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Speaker 2: was rolled back.

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Speaker 1: There's been a recent wave, and I think that ALEC

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Speaker 1: has played a role in getting this done. I mean,

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Speaker 1: Florida now has a universal education freedom program. Arkansas has

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Speaker 1: set up what they call the Learning Empowerment, Accountability, Readiness,

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Speaker 1: Networking at School Safety Plan, which turns out to be

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Speaker 1: the word LEARNS. That was I think Sarah Huckaby Sanders

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Speaker 1: first really big initiative. Ioways passed a Student First Act.

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Speaker 1: West Virginia expanded the state's Hope Scholarship program so that

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Speaker 1: one hundred percent of the students in the state will

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Speaker 1: be eligible by twenty twenty six. So you are seeing

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Speaker 1: this kind of wave of change coming across the states,

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Speaker 1: and I think that ALEC, through its programs and its

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Speaker 1: conferences and its meetings, has played a major role in

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Speaker 1: being able to get people involved in education and freedom.

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Speaker 1: In the case of Arkansas, they have a universal Education

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Speaker 1: Scholarship account program. They have unlimited charter schools for the state.

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Speaker 1: A lot of states have a few charter schools, but

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Speaker 1: they limit them very tightly to protect the teachers' union.

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Speaker 1: Arkansas now has authorized unlimited charter schools. They raised the

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Speaker 1: base pay for teachers from thirty six thousand to fifty thousand,

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Speaker 1: which actually moved Arkansas from forty eighth in the country

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Speaker 1: to fourth in the country for the highest minimum teacher pay.

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Speaker 1: They created a onus and sending for good teachers up

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Speaker 1: to ten thousand dollars, and authorized paid maternity for teachers,

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Speaker 1: created one hundred and twenty literacy coaching positions to help

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Speaker 1: students across the state who are behind in their reading skills,

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Speaker 1: and create a five hundred dollars scholarship for kindergarten through

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Speaker 1: third grade students that are not reading a grade level,

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Speaker 1: and that scholarship can be used for a variety of

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Speaker 1: supplemental education services trying to help them learn how to read.

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Speaker 1: Arkansas has really passed a pretty comprehensive program, and I

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Speaker 1: think with a great deal of input from the American

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Speaker 1: Legislative Exchange Council.

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Speaker 2: It's amazing what Governor Sanders was able to get done

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Speaker 2: in that Learns Act. The amount of support for it

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Speaker 2: was staggering. It passed both chambers House hands Senate with

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Speaker 2: a two third super majority. My understanding is that that

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Speaker 2: was done intentionally so that they could stick an emergency

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Speaker 2: clause on that bill because they wanted those teacher pay

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Speaker 2: raises to go into effect immediately. They didn't want any

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Speaker 2: kind of delay there. And I think Arkansas is a

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Speaker 2: great example of how these policies can get across the

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Speaker 2: finish line with the right amount of gubernatorials and right

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Speaker 2: amount of input from all the right stakeholders.

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Speaker 1: Do you see other states being to move in this direction?

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Speaker 1: Where would you look to see the next wave of reform.

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Speaker 2: There's a number of states that we're keeping an eye on.

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Speaker 2: New Hampshire is one. They've currently got an ESA program

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Speaker 2: that's fairly expansive but not universal, and I know there's

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Speaker 2: been some discussions among lawmakers there about expanding that program.

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Speaker 2: Ohio has their Backpack bill that's being discussed amongst the legislators. Texas,

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Speaker 2: the Texas Senate actually just passed Senate Bill eight, which

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Speaker 2: would create a universal ESA as well, and that just

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Speaker 2: had its first hearing in the House yesterday. So definitely

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Speaker 2: a number of states. I forgot to mention Kansas as well.

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Speaker 2: They're debating a universal ESA too, So it really is

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Speaker 2: an amazing wave. States love to compete with one another,

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Speaker 2: and I think Arizona kind of got the ball rolling.

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Speaker 2: In West Virginia and now Florida, Iowa, Arkansas, We're seeing

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Speaker 2: all these other states want to get involved as well.

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Speaker 1: To keep pace. I give ale like a pretty fair

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Speaker 1: amount of credit for providing a convenience place where people

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Speaker 1: do get together from the states and do swap ideas.

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Speaker 1: And we have sort of a legislator to legislator education

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Speaker 1: program going on. One of the things we're noticing is

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Speaker 1: a very significant shift towards people going into technical education,

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Speaker 1: trade education, apprenticeships, mentoring well as mic Row, who did

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Speaker 1: a series called Dirty Jobs on Discovery, has said over

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Speaker 1: and over again not everyone has to have a college degree,

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Speaker 1: and in fact, you can earn a very very good

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Speaker 1: living by having an apprenticeship or going to a traditional

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Speaker 1: trade school in a way that gives you specific occupations.

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Speaker 1: He points out, for example, that plumbers and pipefitters and

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Speaker 1: steam fitters the median pay was fifty nine eight dollars

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Speaker 1: a year in twenty twenty one. If you're an aircraft

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Speaker 1: or avionic technician, your median pay was sixty five thousand

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Speaker 1: dollars a year. Electricians at a median pay of sixty

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Speaker 1: thousand dollars a year. Elevator mechanics I was surprised by this.

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Speaker 1: Their median pay was nine twenty eight hundred and sixty

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Speaker 1: dollars per year. There's a whole zone here for states

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Speaker 1: to look at and giving young people an alternative to

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Speaker 1: going to college or to pile lamp a lot of

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Speaker 1: debt by actually going out and learning a skill and

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Speaker 1: getting a job at a pretty early age and getting

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Speaker 1: a pretty good income an ability to actually go out

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Speaker 1: and buy a house and have a pretty good life.

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Speaker 1: Do you sense that ALEC is trying to also expand

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Speaker 1: the opportunities for things like apprenticeships and mentoring and what

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Speaker 1: have you, in addition to focusing on traditional in classroom education.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, we absolutely are. We're definitely seeing and it's great.

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Speaker 2: We're seeing more of these young kids being told that

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Speaker 2: these career and technical schools are options available to them.

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Speaker 2: I know, for a number of years, a lot of

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Speaker 2: the problem was that these high schools are being told

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Speaker 2: you have to go to a four year college. You know,

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Speaker 2: you can't succeed unless you've got a four year degree.

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Speaker 2: And as the price of college skyrocketed thanks to government

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Speaker 2: subsidization of this student loan market, I think more of

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Speaker 2: these students are making a conscious choice and saying, the

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Speaker 2: amount of debt that I would have to take on

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Speaker 2: to go get that for your degree just isn't worth it.

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Speaker 2: There are lots of these other great careers. Elevator mechanics.

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Speaker 2: That was a striking one starting pay of close to

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Speaker 2: one hundred thousand dollars a year. Not only that, I imagine

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Speaker 2: you could become an elevator mechanic just by going to

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Speaker 2: a two year trade school. So it's cheaper, it's faster,

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Speaker 2: you're into the workforce much quicker, and the starting pay

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Speaker 2: is much higher.

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Speaker 1: When people want to learn more about ALEC, where can

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Speaker 1: they go? And I think your meetings tend to all

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Speaker 1: be open to the public, aren't they.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's correct. Anyone can attend our meetings. We've got

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Speaker 2: our annual meeting at the end of July, and then

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Speaker 2: we've got our States and Nation Policy Summit which is

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Speaker 2: held the first week of December. But anyone looking for

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Speaker 2: information on those meetings can go do our website www

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Speaker 2: dot ALEC dot org alec dot org. We've got information

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Speaker 2: not just from my task force, which is Education workforce Development,

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Speaker 2: but from all of our other task forces as well,

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Speaker 2: like tax and fiscal policy, Commerce, Insurance and Economic Development, federalism.

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Speaker 2: So we've got all kinds of great ideas. We definitely

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Speaker 2: encourage everyone to jump on that website take a look

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Speaker 2: through our model policies, which state lawmakers can use as

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Speaker 2: templates to promote these ideas. You know, get a lot

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Speaker 2: of good information on our home page at www dot

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Speaker 2: ALEC dot org ALEC dot org. We've got our twenty

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Speaker 2: twenty three Essential Policy Solutions, which is a brand new

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Speaker 2: publication that we put together this year which combines all

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Speaker 2: of the best ideas from our various task forces and

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Speaker 2: policy centers and puts all of those in a single

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Speaker 2: document for your listeners and state lawmakers around the country

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Speaker 2: to consult. And our goal with this Essential Policy Solutions

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Speaker 2: publication was to make sure everyone's aware of the model

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Speaker 2: policies that we have out there, the key publications that

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Speaker 2: we've got, and mostly just to see all of the

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Speaker 2: great movement that's happening across the states. We view this

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Speaker 2: document as a representation of what are the best ideas

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Speaker 2: coming out of these different states, and most importantly, how

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Speaker 2: can other states keep pace?

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Speaker 1: And you really have a very broad range of interest.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it always strikes me when I look at

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Speaker 1: what's going to happen at one of your conferences, how

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Speaker 1: many different topics and how many different experts you bring

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Speaker 1: together so that legislators can sort of pursue the topics

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Speaker 1: that they're most interested in.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, even just within our education policy space, we've had

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Speaker 2: the chance to talk about these education savings accounts, but

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Speaker 2: we also do some work on controversial curriculum. We have

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Speaker 2: a model policy called the Academic Transparency Act, which very

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Speaker 2: simple model. It just requires that all materials being taught

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Speaker 2: to kids in public schools have to be posted online.

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Speaker 2: Parents can jump on and access that, so they're always

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Speaker 2: aware of what's being taught and there aren't any surprises.

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Speaker 2: We've also got model policies in the workforce development space,

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Speaker 2: encouraging career and technical schools, public private partnerships. In that space.

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Speaker 2: We try to address a very broad section of ideas

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Speaker 2: across all the different policy areas.

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Speaker 1: I was really surprised that the parents' right to know

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Speaker 1: what's being taught their students is like an eighty four

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Speaker 1: percent issue. And I think this came out of COVID

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Speaker 1: and people suddenly for the first time seeing by zoom

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Speaker 1: what their child is being taught, and sort of a

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Speaker 1: sense of shock about some of the things. But that's

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Speaker 1: now become kind of a nationwide movement to ensure that

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Speaker 1: parents have the right to know what is being taught

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Speaker 1: to their children, and what advice their children are being given.

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Speaker 2: We've actually got another ALEC model policy. It's called the

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Speaker 2: Fundamental Parental Rights Statute. We've seen over a dozen states

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Speaker 2: implement this into their state laws that says parental rights

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Speaker 2: are recognized as fundamental, and we're going to require the

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Speaker 2: courts to use the highest level of scrutiny when it

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Speaker 2: comes to court cases involving a government violation of those

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Speaker 2: parental rights. Congress under Speaker McCarthy's leadership just got this

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Speaker 2: Parental Bill of Rights done, which contains some of that

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Speaker 2: same language. So it's an incredibly popular issue. It shouldn't

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Speaker 2: ever be the case that parents feel like they're playing

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Speaker 2: second fiddle to a government bureaucrat who runs a public school.

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Speaker 2: Parents should not only always be aware of what their

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Speaker 2: kids are being taught, but they should also have access

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Speaker 2: to other schooling options if they feel that that's what's

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Speaker 2: best for them.

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Speaker 1: And I think that's the heart of the al approach

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Speaker 1: to education, that it puts the parents in charge and

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Speaker 1: allows the parents to actually decide what they want to

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Speaker 1: accomplish and whether or not they're comfortable with what's happening

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Speaker 1: with their child. I can't speak highly enough about the

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Speaker 1: work you all are doing in this area and how

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Speaker 1: important it is to the country.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we really appreciate it. It's great work. We all

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Speaker 2: love doing it here at ALEC. There's so much momentum

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Speaker 2: across all these policy areas, especially in education, and we're

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Speaker 2: just excited for parents to be put back in charge

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Speaker 2: and for lawmakers around the country to be quickly pursuing

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Speaker 2: these policies as fast as they can to keep up

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Speaker 2: with one another.

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Speaker 1: I try to encourage people when they get frustrated about Washington,

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Speaker 1: they get worried about the future of the country. Take

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Speaker 1: a look at the states, take a look at the innovation,

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Speaker 1: take a look at the reform, and recognize that organizations

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Speaker 1: like ALEC are literally knitting together across the whole country

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Speaker 1: a better future with dramatic levels of reform and government.

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Speaker 1: And the work you're doing, Andrew is a very important

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Speaker 1: part of moving America forward on education and moving America

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Speaker 1: forward in terms of our ability to both have educated

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Speaker 1: citizens and to have an educated workforce capable of competing

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Speaker 1: with China and with our other competitors around the world.

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Speaker 1: So I want to thank you, Andrew for your personal

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Speaker 1: commitment to helping ALEC work. And again, everybody who is

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Speaker 1: part of ALEC, including their legislative members around the country,

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Speaker 1: I think are really helping create a better future. So

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Speaker 1: I want to thank you for joining me. I really

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Speaker 1: appreciate you taking this kind of time to tell us

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Speaker 1: about what's going on around the country.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, it was great to be on. Thanks Persius Speaker.

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Speaker 1: Thank you to my guest Andrew Handel. You can learn

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Speaker 1: more about ALEC on our show page at newtsworld dot com.

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Speaker 1: NEWT World is produced by Gengish three sixty and iHeartMedia.

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Speaker 1: Our executive producer is Guarnsey Sloan and our researcher is

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Speaker 1: Rachel Peterson. The artwork for the show was created by

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Speaker 1: Steve Penley. Special thanks to the team at Ginglish three sixty.

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Speaker 1: If you've been enjoying Newtsworld, I hope you'll go to

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Speaker 1: Apple Podcast and both rate us with five stars and

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00:22:48,680 --> 00:22:51,040
Speaker 1: give us a review so others can learn what it's

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Speaker 1: all about. Right now, listeners of newt World can sign

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Speaker 1: up from my three free weekly columns at gingisthree sixty

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Speaker 1: dot com slash newsletter. I'm new Gnglish. This is neut Walk,