1 00:00:05,880 --> 00:00:14,920 Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Greece. What a morning in the courtroom. 2 00:00:14,960 --> 00:00:17,960 Speaker 1: I hope you have been listening to it live. I'm 3 00:00:18,000 --> 00:00:21,840 Speaker 1: telling you, you know, it's one thing to say, wow, 4 00:00:22,040 --> 00:00:26,480 Speaker 1: Alex Murdag got disbarred, or Alex Murdag stole from his clients, 5 00:00:26,840 --> 00:00:29,920 Speaker 1: But when you hear that witness on the stand. I 6 00:00:30,320 --> 00:00:34,040 Speaker 1: took down so many notes about how much money he stole, 7 00:00:34,200 --> 00:00:37,560 Speaker 1: and it was a very elaborate process where he would 8 00:00:37,600 --> 00:00:41,760 Speaker 1: create a fake Forge account. Forge is the name of 9 00:00:41,760 --> 00:00:45,559 Speaker 1: an actual business, but he created a fake Forge account 10 00:00:45,720 --> 00:00:48,960 Speaker 1: and he would funnel two hundred and seventy nine thousand 11 00:00:49,000 --> 00:00:52,520 Speaker 1: dollars settlement, two hundred and forty seven thousand dollars, seven 12 00:00:52,640 --> 00:00:55,600 Speaker 1: hundred and fifty thousand dollars one hundred and eighty three 13 00:00:55,640 --> 00:01:00,320 Speaker 1: and goes on. I've got twenty settlements that he may 14 00:01:00,480 --> 00:01:04,839 Speaker 1: twenty awards for clients at least that all went into 15 00:01:04,920 --> 00:01:08,360 Speaker 1: his fake Forge account. And let me tell you something else. 16 00:01:08,680 --> 00:01:11,880 Speaker 1: That lady witness on the stand there was no love 17 00:01:12,040 --> 00:01:15,920 Speaker 1: lost between her and Alex Murdog. She was ready to 18 00:01:16,000 --> 00:01:19,320 Speaker 1: drop the hammer on him. And I only wonder if 19 00:01:19,319 --> 00:01:25,120 Speaker 1: the witness knew Maggie Murdoch because remember Maggie worked there 20 00:01:25,200 --> 00:01:28,880 Speaker 1: in the office as a bookkeeper. A lot more, a 21 00:01:28,880 --> 00:01:33,200 Speaker 1: lot of arguing between the lawyers. But boy, talk about 22 00:01:33,760 --> 00:01:37,280 Speaker 1: motive for murder. I mean, as he Grace, this is 23 00:01:37,319 --> 00:01:39,840 Speaker 1: Crime Stories. Thanks for being with us here at Fox 24 00:01:39,920 --> 00:01:43,280 Speaker 1: Nation and Series one eleven with me and All Star 25 00:01:43,400 --> 00:01:45,639 Speaker 1: panel to make sense of what we know right now. 26 00:01:45,959 --> 00:01:51,240 Speaker 1: But the big thing, the big bombshell, in addition to 27 00:01:51,320 --> 00:01:56,480 Speaker 1: all of this financial misdoing leading up to the murders 28 00:01:56,520 --> 00:02:01,200 Speaker 1: of Maggie and Paul. In addition to that, guys, I 29 00:02:01,240 --> 00:02:05,080 Speaker 1: consider this the single most important moment of the trial. 30 00:02:06,520 --> 00:02:14,400 Speaker 1: Finally somebody stands up and says it was Alex Murdog. Now, 31 00:02:14,919 --> 00:02:18,520 Speaker 1: I looked online last night and I saw all these 32 00:02:18,800 --> 00:02:22,720 Speaker 1: entries on Twitter and Facebook and Insta saying we're not 33 00:02:22,840 --> 00:02:26,520 Speaker 1: afraid here in Carleton County, We're not afraid of Alex Murdog. 34 00:02:27,360 --> 00:02:31,240 Speaker 1: But when I was sitting outside the courthouse and in 35 00:02:31,360 --> 00:02:35,040 Speaker 1: the courtroom and break, people would come up to me 36 00:02:35,240 --> 00:02:40,800 Speaker 1: and say, my best friend was in the jury pool 37 00:02:41,480 --> 00:02:45,000 Speaker 1: and she was afraid. She was afraid to be on 38 00:02:45,040 --> 00:02:47,840 Speaker 1: the jury. She was afraid that somehow Murdog would get 39 00:02:47,840 --> 00:02:52,240 Speaker 1: off and come after everybody on the jury. Then I 40 00:02:52,320 --> 00:02:56,600 Speaker 1: was at a restaurant eating dinner right one blot from 41 00:02:56,600 --> 00:03:01,280 Speaker 1: the courthouse, and another woman, a different woman came up 42 00:03:01,400 --> 00:03:06,000 Speaker 1: and told me, Yeah, the Murdog relatives, they're not talking. 43 00:03:06,280 --> 00:03:09,520 Speaker 1: We were with them two weekends ago. They don't even 44 00:03:09,600 --> 00:03:12,400 Speaker 1: bring it up because they're all scared they might have 45 00:03:12,440 --> 00:03:17,920 Speaker 1: to testify to something. But finally somebody did stand up 46 00:03:18,560 --> 00:03:23,640 Speaker 1: and say, I recognize that that's the voice of Alex 47 00:03:23,760 --> 00:03:29,799 Speaker 1: Murdog placing him at the crime scene. Somebody that wasn't 48 00:03:29,840 --> 00:03:33,839 Speaker 1: afraid to stand up and tell the truth. I want 49 00:03:33,840 --> 00:03:38,440 Speaker 1: you to listen to our cut two in November of 50 00:03:38,520 --> 00:03:42,160 Speaker 1: twenty twenty two. Did law Enforce asked you to come 51 00:03:42,160 --> 00:03:46,080 Speaker 1: in and look at a video? They didn't. And did 52 00:03:46,080 --> 00:03:50,640 Speaker 1: you watch that video? I didn't? And what was on 53 00:03:50,640 --> 00:03:54,080 Speaker 1: that video? It was the video Paul was supposed to 54 00:03:54,080 --> 00:03:58,960 Speaker 1: take as cash was on the video? And did you 55 00:03:59,040 --> 00:04:02,240 Speaker 1: hear her recognize the voices on there? I didn't. Did 56 00:04:02,240 --> 00:04:06,040 Speaker 1: you recognize the voices of your second family? I didn't. 57 00:04:06,280 --> 00:04:09,920 Speaker 1: And what voices did you hear? Paul's Miss Maggie, miss Teller? 58 00:04:10,720 --> 00:04:16,680 Speaker 1: And how sure are you now positive that's one hundred 59 00:04:16,720 --> 00:04:23,120 Speaker 1: percent positive? And more? Take listen hour cut three voices. 60 00:04:23,160 --> 00:04:28,240 Speaker 1: Did you recognize on that video? Paul Murdle, Maggie Murdal, 61 00:04:28,320 --> 00:04:33,920 Speaker 1: and Alice Murdal. And how sure are you the person 62 00:04:34,080 --> 00:04:37,520 Speaker 1: whose voice you recognize on there that you identified as 63 00:04:37,520 --> 00:04:39,120 Speaker 1: Alec Murdole. Do you see him in the court room 64 00:04:39,200 --> 00:04:42,280 Speaker 1: here today? Tom, yes, sir? Can you point him out 65 00:04:42,360 --> 00:04:46,760 Speaker 1: for the jury? He's sitting right there, Gronor please let 66 00:04:46,800 --> 00:04:54,080 Speaker 1: the record reflect he's identified the defendant. What video are 67 00:04:54,120 --> 00:04:58,599 Speaker 1: they talking about? Well, if you are illegal legal, then 68 00:04:58,640 --> 00:05:02,479 Speaker 1: you know what video we're talking talking about. The murdered 69 00:05:02,560 --> 00:05:09,480 Speaker 1: son Paul murdog had a friend's dog. It was Rogan Gibson, 70 00:05:09,600 --> 00:05:12,839 Speaker 1: Rogie Gibson's dog, and there was something wrong with the 71 00:05:12,839 --> 00:05:14,920 Speaker 1: dog's tail. I've looked at the video. I don't see 72 00:05:14,960 --> 00:05:17,760 Speaker 1: anything wrong with the dog's tail, but they apparently do. 73 00:05:18,640 --> 00:05:24,560 Speaker 1: And in that moment, Rogie asks Paul, we'll look, take 74 00:05:24,600 --> 00:05:27,200 Speaker 1: a picture, take a video, and we're gonna give it 75 00:05:27,240 --> 00:05:29,520 Speaker 1: to this lady VT that we know, see if she 76 00:05:29,560 --> 00:05:32,560 Speaker 1: can figure out what it is by the video. That's 77 00:05:32,600 --> 00:05:36,080 Speaker 1: what we're talking about. And in the background you hear 78 00:05:36,440 --> 00:05:40,720 Speaker 1: a third voice, Paul Maggie his mother, and we believe 79 00:05:40,839 --> 00:05:44,880 Speaker 1: Alex Murdog. Okay, you take a listen and you hear 80 00:05:44,960 --> 00:05:49,080 Speaker 1: a distant third voice that, according to two witness witnesses, 81 00:05:49,440 --> 00:05:54,159 Speaker 1: is Alex Murdock. Significance, this is about a minute before 82 00:05:54,520 --> 00:06:00,640 Speaker 1: Paul and Maggie are murdered. Take a listen, get it 83 00:06:00,839 --> 00:06:21,960 Speaker 1: get back quick, cash quick comes ships Okay, hey your 84 00:06:22,120 --> 00:06:30,240 Speaker 1: burns now blah blah, Hey, buba, it's a guinea. There's 85 00:06:30,279 --> 00:06:48,840 Speaker 1: a chicken. Come I cash cash quick. And according to 86 00:06:48,880 --> 00:06:56,359 Speaker 1: not one but two witnesses, Rogi, Rogan Gibson and Will 87 00:06:56,720 --> 00:07:03,760 Speaker 1: Loving both say that is Alex Murdog, the accused killer. 88 00:07:03,960 --> 00:07:06,520 Speaker 1: With me an all star Pamela. But first I'm gonna 89 00:07:06,600 --> 00:07:10,080 Speaker 1: go to Kelly Skihan, who's been in the courtroom from 90 00:07:10,080 --> 00:07:13,560 Speaker 1: the get go with Fox Nation. Kelly, that was a 91 00:07:13,640 --> 00:07:18,520 Speaker 1: moment I will never forget. Describe to me what happened, because, 92 00:07:18,520 --> 00:07:21,559 Speaker 1: like so many moments where you and I are sitting 93 00:07:21,600 --> 00:07:25,080 Speaker 1: there literally on the edge of her seat, like those 94 00:07:25,120 --> 00:07:28,440 Speaker 1: two inches are going to make a difference listening, you 95 00:07:28,480 --> 00:07:31,920 Speaker 1: could have heard a pin drop in the courtroom. Tell 96 00:07:32,000 --> 00:07:34,320 Speaker 1: me about it, Kelly. Yeah, Nancy, you and I have 97 00:07:34,360 --> 00:07:36,280 Speaker 1: been in the courtroom for the last couple of days, 98 00:07:36,280 --> 00:07:38,760 Speaker 1: and this truly is out of a Hollywood movie. When 99 00:07:38,800 --> 00:07:41,720 Speaker 1: that video was played, everyone in the court was on 100 00:07:41,760 --> 00:07:44,080 Speaker 1: the edge of their seats. And something that I noticed 101 00:07:44,200 --> 00:07:47,119 Speaker 1: is Alex's family almost when they were taken it back. 102 00:07:47,360 --> 00:07:50,400 Speaker 1: Local reporting says that they actually confirmed that that was 103 00:07:50,480 --> 00:07:53,560 Speaker 1: Alec Murdock's voice on the tape before we even heard 104 00:07:53,600 --> 00:07:56,080 Speaker 1: it in court. His sister you can see her in 105 00:07:56,080 --> 00:07:59,360 Speaker 1: the feet almost grimacing. She knows that that is her 106 00:07:59,360 --> 00:08:02,280 Speaker 1: brother out. Kelly, I'm gonna push on the spot right 107 00:08:02,480 --> 00:08:06,440 Speaker 1: right now. You were with me at the restaurant the 108 00:08:06,440 --> 00:08:10,840 Speaker 1: other night and we were talking to friends of the 109 00:08:10,920 --> 00:08:16,360 Speaker 1: murdog family, and the person we were speaking with had 110 00:08:16,440 --> 00:08:21,480 Speaker 1: been with the Murdog's a few weeks before, and these 111 00:08:21,520 --> 00:08:26,520 Speaker 1: are second, second, third cousins, and they were afraid. They 112 00:08:26,560 --> 00:08:29,440 Speaker 1: didn't want to talk about it. They wouldn't speak about it. 113 00:08:30,160 --> 00:08:33,640 Speaker 1: They acted like nothing was happening because they're afraid. They 114 00:08:33,679 --> 00:08:36,880 Speaker 1: do not want to get involved. They're afraid, Nancy. And 115 00:08:36,920 --> 00:08:39,160 Speaker 1: we've even been speaking to sources on the ground here 116 00:08:39,320 --> 00:08:42,400 Speaker 1: where when one person starts talking, the other person literally 117 00:08:42,480 --> 00:08:44,920 Speaker 1: covers the other one's mouth. They don't want to be 118 00:08:44,920 --> 00:08:47,760 Speaker 1: connected to this case. They're still scared of the Murdoch's here, 119 00:08:48,040 --> 00:08:50,800 Speaker 1: whether it's the extended family or they're scared of if 120 00:08:50,800 --> 00:08:53,320 Speaker 1: Alec gets out, what's going to happen to them. No 121 00:08:53,360 --> 00:08:56,000 Speaker 1: one wants to talk, but even people. I was hearing 122 00:08:56,040 --> 00:08:59,240 Speaker 1: in court today that Alec Murdoch during jury selection, when 123 00:08:59,600 --> 00:09:03,640 Speaker 1: the were asking if they could form, you know, opinions 124 00:09:03,679 --> 00:09:06,200 Speaker 1: of this not form opinions of this case, and they 125 00:09:06,200 --> 00:09:08,600 Speaker 1: would say no, and they were dismissed. Alec would look 126 00:09:08,600 --> 00:09:11,160 Speaker 1: at them with this stare. So he definitely still has 127 00:09:11,160 --> 00:09:14,040 Speaker 1: his talents in this town. Well, Kelly, you just reminded 128 00:09:14,080 --> 00:09:17,840 Speaker 1: me of that. I saw that too. We were talking 129 00:09:18,440 --> 00:09:21,760 Speaker 1: to a witness, a person not on the witness list, 130 00:09:22,120 --> 00:09:25,040 Speaker 1: not that kind of witness. We were talking to someone 131 00:09:25,160 --> 00:09:30,800 Speaker 1: affiliated friends of the Murdogs, and the other person started 132 00:09:31,320 --> 00:09:34,440 Speaker 1: talking to us and telling us things we had never 133 00:09:34,480 --> 00:09:38,000 Speaker 1: heard before. And the other one, literally, as Kelly Skin 134 00:09:38,160 --> 00:09:43,680 Speaker 1: just told you, reached over and went and that was it, 135 00:09:44,360 --> 00:10:01,360 Speaker 1: no more talking, That was it. Time stories with Nancy Grace. 136 00:10:03,040 --> 00:10:07,559 Speaker 1: Guys today, we've heard a lot about financial miss deeds, 137 00:10:08,320 --> 00:10:14,160 Speaker 1: but I wanted you to hear that video and that sound. Um. Also, 138 00:10:14,320 --> 00:10:17,720 Speaker 1: I want you to take a listen now to a 139 00:10:17,800 --> 00:10:27,800 Speaker 1: Snapchat video take a listen video. So that was on 140 00:10:27,880 --> 00:10:31,160 Speaker 1: the afternoon or the evening of June seventh, twenty twenty one. 141 00:10:31,840 --> 00:10:35,520 Speaker 1: That's correct. Clothes that he was wearing at least in 142 00:10:35,559 --> 00:10:38,920 Speaker 1: that video you saw on the evening of June seventh, 143 00:10:38,920 --> 00:10:41,600 Speaker 1: twenty twenty one. Yeah, those are I mean, those are 144 00:10:41,600 --> 00:10:43,880 Speaker 1: the clothes I saw in the video. Long pants on 145 00:10:43,880 --> 00:10:49,079 Speaker 1: a shirt, yeah, yes, sir, and those particular shoes, yes, sir. 146 00:10:53,200 --> 00:10:55,000 Speaker 1: And you watched that video in real time when he 147 00:10:55,080 --> 00:10:57,280 Speaker 1: came in from Paul's phone that evening. Is that correct? 148 00:10:57,679 --> 00:11:03,400 Speaker 1: That is correct, guys. I'm very taken aback. We heard 149 00:11:03,600 --> 00:11:06,959 Speaker 1: rumors of this at the get go, but Kelley's skin 150 00:11:07,640 --> 00:11:14,160 Speaker 1: isn't true. That reportedly Alex Murdog had a wardrobe change, 151 00:11:14,400 --> 00:11:17,640 Speaker 1: that he was wearing one thing before the shootings and 152 00:11:17,800 --> 00:11:22,400 Speaker 1: something entirely different when police arrived after his nine one 153 00:11:22,480 --> 00:11:25,400 Speaker 1: one call. That is true. So in this snapchat video 154 00:11:25,440 --> 00:11:28,080 Speaker 1: you see Alec Murdock pushing over a tree and you 155 00:11:28,160 --> 00:11:31,200 Speaker 1: hear Pal Murdock in the background laughing. Alci Murdock is 156 00:11:31,200 --> 00:11:34,199 Speaker 1: wearing a blue short sleeves shirt and long pants. Then 157 00:11:34,240 --> 00:11:36,880 Speaker 1: when you see this video from inside of a police car, 158 00:11:37,000 --> 00:11:40,199 Speaker 1: later that night, when Alca's Meek interviewed by police about 159 00:11:40,240 --> 00:11:43,760 Speaker 1: what happened, he's in a short sleeve white under shirt 160 00:11:43,800 --> 00:11:47,320 Speaker 1: and shorts. We don't know where his clothes went from 161 00:11:47,320 --> 00:11:49,200 Speaker 1: earlier that night, and we don't know if we will 162 00:11:49,200 --> 00:11:51,440 Speaker 1: ever find them. Well, you know, Kelly, I'm glad you 163 00:11:51,480 --> 00:11:53,640 Speaker 1: put it like that, because we were just showing a 164 00:11:53,880 --> 00:11:57,000 Speaker 1: split screen of what he's wearing in the video that 165 00:11:57,080 --> 00:12:00,520 Speaker 1: afternoon is identified by Will Loving and what he was 166 00:12:00,559 --> 00:12:04,120 Speaker 1: wearing just a few hours later when police arrived, so 167 00:12:04,360 --> 00:12:09,400 Speaker 1: did Alex Murdog discard bloody clothes. In addition to my 168 00:12:09,520 --> 00:12:12,400 Speaker 1: Fox Nations senior producer who's been with me through thick 169 00:12:12,400 --> 00:12:17,000 Speaker 1: and thin, Kelly Skin also with us is a renowned attorney. 170 00:12:17,280 --> 00:12:20,920 Speaker 1: I know you've heard her name before, Amy Zimmerchek. Why 171 00:12:20,920 --> 00:12:23,960 Speaker 1: have you heard her name because she is the lawyer 172 00:12:24,120 --> 00:12:29,920 Speaker 1: for Curtis aka cousin Eddie Smith. As you will recall, 173 00:12:30,120 --> 00:12:34,320 Speaker 1: you first heard the name Curtis Eddie Smith when Alex 174 00:12:34,480 --> 00:12:39,280 Speaker 1: Murdog somehow mysteriously ended up on a rural road way 175 00:12:39,360 --> 00:12:42,720 Speaker 1: out of his way, and then an unknown stranger came 176 00:12:42,720 --> 00:12:46,840 Speaker 1: and shot him in the head, and miraculously he lived listen. 177 00:12:47,120 --> 00:12:51,880 Speaker 1: I got a flat tire stopped and somebody stopped to 178 00:12:51,920 --> 00:12:55,520 Speaker 1: help me, and when I turned my back, they tried 179 00:12:55,520 --> 00:13:00,400 Speaker 1: to shoot me. Oh okay, will you shot? Yes? But 180 00:13:00,520 --> 00:13:07,320 Speaker 1: oh man, I'm okay you shot where? Where? Will you shot? At? Hush? 181 00:13:08,080 --> 00:13:10,440 Speaker 1: Did they actually shoot you? They're tied to shoot you. 182 00:13:10,880 --> 00:13:15,520 Speaker 1: They shot me. Cousin Eddie is charged with assistant suicide, 183 00:13:15,559 --> 00:13:20,760 Speaker 1: assault and battery, on and on and on. Amy Zimmerchet, 184 00:13:20,880 --> 00:13:23,600 Speaker 1: You've got your work cut out for you. What is 185 00:13:23,600 --> 00:13:26,640 Speaker 1: the status of mister Smith's case right now? It is 186 00:13:26,679 --> 00:13:30,240 Speaker 1: still pending. All of his cases are still pending. The 187 00:13:30,520 --> 00:13:33,160 Speaker 1: he has take gran jury cases as well as local 188 00:13:33,840 --> 00:13:40,360 Speaker 1: Hampton County. The roadside shooting occurred in Hampton County and 189 00:13:40,480 --> 00:13:43,920 Speaker 1: so he's got a pending speedy trial motion there and 190 00:13:43,960 --> 00:13:46,480 Speaker 1: that has not been heard. Okay, that was really smart. 191 00:13:46,559 --> 00:13:51,200 Speaker 1: Tell you something that. Okay, jump in this morning in court, 192 00:13:51,240 --> 00:13:54,400 Speaker 1: I saw Alec Murdock's defense team walk in with a big, big, 193 00:13:54,440 --> 00:13:56,880 Speaker 1: big file and the label Eddie Smith on it. So 194 00:13:56,920 --> 00:13:59,920 Speaker 1: I think that he will be called to testify pretty soon. Here. 195 00:14:00,080 --> 00:14:01,600 Speaker 1: It's a witness and it is one that we are 196 00:14:01,640 --> 00:14:04,600 Speaker 1: definitely watching. Well, you know what, I don't know about that, 197 00:14:04,720 --> 00:14:07,840 Speaker 1: Kelly skin I think you're right, But I would always 198 00:14:07,880 --> 00:14:12,920 Speaker 1: walk into court with a big file what said defendens 199 00:14:13,520 --> 00:14:17,520 Speaker 1: rap sheet on it, just so they would know that's 200 00:14:17,520 --> 00:14:19,840 Speaker 1: what they were looking at. If he took the stand, 201 00:14:19,880 --> 00:14:22,760 Speaker 1: of course, they already knew that, that said. Back to 202 00:14:23,080 --> 00:14:26,200 Speaker 1: thank you, Kelly. Back to Amy Zimmerchek, the lawyer for 203 00:14:26,400 --> 00:14:33,200 Speaker 1: mister Curtis Smith. Amy, do you believe your client will 204 00:14:33,200 --> 00:14:36,640 Speaker 1: take some sort of a plea negotiation in exchange for 205 00:14:36,680 --> 00:14:40,640 Speaker 1: truthful testimony that has not been discussed? If my clients called, 206 00:14:40,680 --> 00:14:43,600 Speaker 1: he will testify truthfully? Well, of course, miss zimmercheck that 207 00:14:43,640 --> 00:14:46,520 Speaker 1: goes without saying that he will testify truthfully. Is he 208 00:14:46,720 --> 00:14:50,520 Speaker 1: actually a blood relative of Alex A. Murdog or is 209 00:14:50,560 --> 00:14:55,440 Speaker 1: this a nickname? Are they actually related? So his mother's 210 00:14:55,520 --> 00:14:59,560 Speaker 1: last name was Murdoch, so he's got but not a 211 00:14:59,640 --> 00:15:02,960 Speaker 1: direct relation. He's got a distant relation to the family. 212 00:15:03,040 --> 00:15:05,760 Speaker 1: Do you anticipate him taking the stand today or in 213 00:15:05,800 --> 00:15:08,120 Speaker 1: the near future. I know he has been subpoenaed as 214 00:15:08,120 --> 00:15:10,440 Speaker 1: a witness. He is definitely not taking the stand today. 215 00:15:11,440 --> 00:15:17,200 Speaker 1: I think that his testimony will likely depend on what 216 00:15:17,240 --> 00:15:21,080 Speaker 1: this judge rules. What Judge Newman rules, upon as far 217 00:15:21,120 --> 00:15:25,800 Speaker 1: as what is allowed either rest jes DA or with 218 00:15:25,960 --> 00:15:31,160 Speaker 1: potential four four B evidence, he mean he has been subpoena. 219 00:15:31,240 --> 00:15:34,200 Speaker 1: He is under subpoena, but I think that a lot 220 00:15:34,280 --> 00:15:38,360 Speaker 1: of what he could testify to will depend on the 221 00:15:38,440 --> 00:15:41,720 Speaker 1: judge's ruling. And from what I understood just as I 222 00:15:41,760 --> 00:15:44,920 Speaker 1: was watching right before the lunch break, it sounds like 223 00:15:45,440 --> 00:15:49,440 Speaker 1: the judge rightfully so to protect the record, is going 224 00:15:49,480 --> 00:15:53,360 Speaker 1: to have almost a mini trial where he listens to 225 00:15:53,400 --> 00:15:56,680 Speaker 1: this potential either rest jes DA or four four B 226 00:15:57,040 --> 00:16:00,640 Speaker 1: or a combination of both evidence before he decides to 227 00:16:01,040 --> 00:16:03,560 Speaker 1: present it to the jury, which I think does two things. 228 00:16:03,600 --> 00:16:07,200 Speaker 1: It probably changes the timeline on when or if my 229 00:16:07,320 --> 00:16:10,160 Speaker 1: client is called, and I think that it extends this 230 00:16:10,320 --> 00:16:14,520 Speaker 1: trial quite a few weeks. Well, we're all settled in. 231 00:16:14,560 --> 00:16:17,880 Speaker 1: I want to hear the whole truth, nothing but the truth. 232 00:16:17,920 --> 00:16:21,160 Speaker 1: I don't want a reader's digest version of what happened. Now. 233 00:16:21,640 --> 00:16:24,680 Speaker 1: Missus Zimmerchet with me is a well known lawyer, and 234 00:16:24,720 --> 00:16:27,600 Speaker 1: I mean that in a good way. Amy Zimmerchet representing 235 00:16:27,680 --> 00:16:33,200 Speaker 1: Curtis Edward Smith, who is accused of shooting murdog and 236 00:16:33,320 --> 00:16:37,200 Speaker 1: the head pre arranged in order to either take the 237 00:16:37,240 --> 00:16:42,720 Speaker 1: focus off the murders of Maggie and Paul, or to 238 00:16:43,120 --> 00:16:46,560 Speaker 1: make it appear as if his assailant had been the 239 00:16:46,560 --> 00:16:50,520 Speaker 1: shooters of Maggie and Paul, A different an alternative theory 240 00:16:50,880 --> 00:16:55,840 Speaker 1: going on amy question, of course, your client at this 241 00:16:56,040 --> 00:16:59,760 Speaker 1: juncture will not be able to testify about any of 242 00:17:00,160 --> 00:17:06,159 Speaker 1: is alleged involvement in the shooting of Alex Murdog. But 243 00:17:06,720 --> 00:17:09,960 Speaker 1: could it be called to the stand to recount under 244 00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:14,919 Speaker 1: oath what Alex Murdog may have told him about the 245 00:17:14,920 --> 00:17:18,880 Speaker 1: shootings of Maggie and Paul. I do believe that that 246 00:17:19,080 --> 00:17:27,199 Speaker 1: is probably a proper testimony, depending on even regardless of 247 00:17:27,240 --> 00:17:33,080 Speaker 1: what Judge Newman rules about the additional evidence or potential 248 00:17:33,119 --> 00:17:36,920 Speaker 1: bad acts or other bad acts. But I do believe 249 00:17:38,880 --> 00:17:43,680 Speaker 1: that the subject of anything that was said in relation 250 00:17:43,760 --> 00:17:46,720 Speaker 1: to that could be the subject of this trial. Let 251 00:17:46,720 --> 00:17:50,119 Speaker 1: me break it down in regular people talk. Curtis Eddie 252 00:17:50,560 --> 00:17:54,520 Speaker 1: Smith is accused of shooting Murdog and a staged event 253 00:17:55,200 --> 00:17:59,880 Speaker 1: they say to give life insurance benefits to the remaining 254 00:18:00,080 --> 00:18:02,520 Speaker 1: living son buster Murdog. I think it's a whole another 255 00:18:02,600 --> 00:18:04,639 Speaker 1: can of worms. Now, if he's called to the stand, 256 00:18:04,720 --> 00:18:07,439 Speaker 1: he can't talk about any of that under the Fifth 257 00:18:07,480 --> 00:18:11,679 Speaker 1: Amendment right to remain silent and not incriminate yourself. And 258 00:18:11,720 --> 00:18:14,520 Speaker 1: if he doesn't say it, I guarantee you Zimmerschek will 259 00:18:14,600 --> 00:18:18,560 Speaker 1: jump in and stop him from incriminating himself. But that 260 00:18:18,600 --> 00:18:22,320 Speaker 1: does not preclude him from testifying under oath in front 261 00:18:22,320 --> 00:18:27,119 Speaker 1: of the jury about any communications by Alec Murdog to 262 00:18:27,359 --> 00:18:33,000 Speaker 1: him about the murders of Maggie and Paul or anything 263 00:18:33,040 --> 00:18:37,600 Speaker 1: else touching on this court case. He can testify about that, 264 00:18:38,000 --> 00:18:41,600 Speaker 1: and he cannot get out from testifying about that by 265 00:18:41,640 --> 00:18:45,200 Speaker 1: the Fifth Amendment or any other protection. Guys, we're talking 266 00:18:45,200 --> 00:18:48,960 Speaker 1: about what is happening in court right now, and I 267 00:18:49,000 --> 00:18:51,120 Speaker 1: want you to take a listen. I'm telling you this 268 00:18:51,160 --> 00:18:56,480 Speaker 1: woman there's no love loss between this woman and Alex Murdog. 269 00:18:56,760 --> 00:18:59,960 Speaker 1: To my other guests whole type, I see you way, 270 00:19:00,480 --> 00:19:03,760 Speaker 1: but you've got to hear this our cut twelve. We 271 00:19:04,040 --> 00:19:09,000 Speaker 1: just heard it. Understand the epiphany that, oh my stars, 272 00:19:09,480 --> 00:19:13,960 Speaker 1: Alex Murdog is stealing. Can you believe that? Listen, you 273 00:19:14,040 --> 00:19:19,680 Speaker 1: were sitting in your office and you had a epiphany 274 00:19:19,960 --> 00:19:23,160 Speaker 1: or you know, just a thought. Let's just see what 275 00:19:23,320 --> 00:19:28,160 Speaker 1: these how many times Alex been his cases have check 276 00:19:28,240 --> 00:19:30,679 Speaker 1: going to Forge, Well, when you're speaking of Epiphany, I 277 00:19:30,720 --> 00:19:33,879 Speaker 1: had started digging through his client list for everything that 278 00:19:33,960 --> 00:19:36,640 Speaker 1: he'd brought in, and rather than going one by one, 279 00:19:37,280 --> 00:19:41,320 Speaker 1: Epiphany was, let me just run a payment ledger on Forge, 280 00:19:41,359 --> 00:19:44,320 Speaker 1: and he was, what that turns out rather than digging 281 00:19:44,359 --> 00:19:49,320 Speaker 1: one by one, okay? And what prompted you to do that? 282 00:19:49,800 --> 00:19:51,760 Speaker 1: Because I was trying to look to see if there 283 00:19:51,760 --> 00:19:54,720 Speaker 1: had been any more subtlements that had been written to 284 00:19:54,800 --> 00:19:58,720 Speaker 1: foolish like this other one with Hirshberger, so that we 285 00:19:58,760 --> 00:20:00,800 Speaker 1: could account for him and discuss how we were going 286 00:20:00,840 --> 00:20:03,800 Speaker 1: to handle them. And the look she gave Alex Lar like, 287 00:20:03,920 --> 00:20:07,040 Speaker 1: I'm telling you, I looks could kill. Now listen to 288 00:20:07,119 --> 00:20:11,399 Speaker 1: more of this witness and our cut eight. So on 289 00:20:11,600 --> 00:20:14,199 Speaker 1: June seventh, I was going to make another run at 290 00:20:14,320 --> 00:20:17,600 Speaker 1: finding out from Elik if we had the information. I 291 00:20:17,680 --> 00:20:21,080 Speaker 1: went upstairs to his offices on the second floor and 292 00:20:21,119 --> 00:20:23,600 Speaker 1: he was on a leaning on a file cabinet outside 293 00:20:23,600 --> 00:20:26,800 Speaker 1: of his office. He turned a look to me when 294 00:20:26,800 --> 00:20:29,359 Speaker 1: I came up and said, what do you need now 295 00:20:30,080 --> 00:20:34,600 Speaker 1: and gave me a very dirty look, not a look 296 00:20:34,640 --> 00:20:37,000 Speaker 1: that I'd ever received from Elik from just kind of 297 00:20:37,040 --> 00:20:41,159 Speaker 1: frustrated with me, look, which made me go, oh, you 298 00:20:41,200 --> 00:20:43,399 Speaker 1: want to know, let's go in your office. I told 299 00:20:43,480 --> 00:20:45,520 Speaker 1: him that I had reason to believe that he had 300 00:20:45,560 --> 00:20:48,720 Speaker 1: received the funds himself, and that I needed proof that 301 00:20:48,880 --> 00:20:52,199 Speaker 1: he had not received those fees himself. Yes, and I 302 00:20:52,240 --> 00:20:55,280 Speaker 1: needed proof that they're not. Yes. What did he tell you? 303 00:20:55,640 --> 00:20:58,359 Speaker 1: He told me again, he assured me that the money 304 00:20:58,520 --> 00:21:02,240 Speaker 1: was there and that he could get it. And at 305 00:21:02,280 --> 00:21:05,440 Speaker 1: that point I said, I know that. I said, I'm 306 00:21:05,480 --> 00:21:07,359 Speaker 1: just trying to do my job, and if I don't 307 00:21:07,359 --> 00:21:10,120 Speaker 1: get this paperwork and verify that with these questions, I'm 308 00:21:10,160 --> 00:21:13,520 Speaker 1: not doing my job. You actually acted like he respected 309 00:21:13,520 --> 00:21:16,680 Speaker 1: that and again said that that money was there and 310 00:21:16,720 --> 00:21:19,399 Speaker 1: that he again was trying to decide what he was 311 00:21:19,440 --> 00:21:23,200 Speaker 1: going to be doing with it. So he assured her 312 00:21:23,720 --> 00:21:29,040 Speaker 1: the money was there, but guess what, it wasn't there. 313 00:21:29,640 --> 00:21:35,080 Speaker 1: We're about to play our cut eleven. What happened to 314 00:21:35,119 --> 00:21:39,440 Speaker 1: all the money? I'm talking about big money settlements, one 315 00:21:39,480 --> 00:21:41,760 Speaker 1: of them off the top of my head, Kelly, jump 316 00:21:41,840 --> 00:21:43,960 Speaker 1: in if I've got the numbers wrong. There is one 317 00:21:44,040 --> 00:21:47,480 Speaker 1: for one point two million dollars one hundred and twenty 318 00:21:47,480 --> 00:21:51,040 Speaker 1: five thousand, one hundred and eighty three thousand, three hundred 319 00:21:51,040 --> 00:21:54,000 Speaker 1: and thirty eight thousand. I've got so many numbers here, 320 00:21:54,080 --> 00:21:57,360 Speaker 1: seven hundred and fifty thousand. It goes on and on 321 00:21:57,400 --> 00:22:00,440 Speaker 1: and on. Kelly, did you add all that up while 322 00:22:00,520 --> 00:22:02,440 Speaker 1: she was talking? I did not add it up while 323 00:22:02,480 --> 00:22:04,439 Speaker 1: she was talking. But we have heard that that number 324 00:22:04,600 --> 00:22:06,960 Speaker 1: is up to ten million dollars. And I have to 325 00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:09,080 Speaker 1: tell you something that happened during a break. As we 326 00:22:09,119 --> 00:22:12,080 Speaker 1: are going through these financial crimes line by line by 327 00:22:12,119 --> 00:22:16,600 Speaker 1: line by line, Alec Murdock's defense attorney, Dick Harputlian stands 328 00:22:16,720 --> 00:22:19,199 Speaker 1: up and looks at Eric Bland, who is representing Eric 329 00:22:19,840 --> 00:22:25,199 Speaker 1: representing the family of Gloria Saderfield, the Murdoch family nanny 330 00:22:25,280 --> 00:22:28,879 Speaker 1: who died in a trip and fall. He looks at 331 00:22:29,000 --> 00:22:33,360 Speaker 1: Eric Bland and says, quote, none of this shi t matters. 332 00:22:33,720 --> 00:22:37,359 Speaker 1: So as the prosecution is laying out this case against 333 00:22:37,359 --> 00:22:41,880 Speaker 1: Alec Murdock for all of these white collar crimes, allegedly, 334 00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:44,520 Speaker 1: his defense is saying, Oh, it doesn't matter, it's fine, 335 00:22:45,160 --> 00:22:49,000 Speaker 1: it's fine. He's stealing from what Kley skid you just said, 336 00:22:49,040 --> 00:22:53,120 Speaker 1: a white collar crime. And you know what Alex Murdog 337 00:22:53,800 --> 00:22:56,360 Speaker 1: Mattie's will have just gotten a gun and hailed into 338 00:22:56,400 --> 00:22:59,119 Speaker 1: the hand of his clients. Just think about it, Kelly. 339 00:22:59,480 --> 00:23:02,600 Speaker 1: Let's just say your mom or your dad is in 340 00:23:02,680 --> 00:23:11,520 Speaker 1: a crash and they have life changing, life changing damages. 341 00:23:12,720 --> 00:23:16,000 Speaker 1: Maybe they have a problem walking, maybe they can never 342 00:23:16,320 --> 00:23:20,920 Speaker 1: go back to work again, they're on disability forever. And 343 00:23:20,960 --> 00:23:24,120 Speaker 1: then Murdai gets a nice little sentiment from one point 344 00:23:24,520 --> 00:23:28,159 Speaker 1: two million dollars. And then every time you call him 345 00:23:28,200 --> 00:23:31,720 Speaker 1: on the phone, you, Kelly, you're paying your mom and 346 00:23:31,920 --> 00:23:35,320 Speaker 1: your dad's way, you're paying their house payment, you're paying 347 00:23:35,400 --> 00:23:40,240 Speaker 1: their car payment, you're paying for their groceries, everything, And 348 00:23:40,400 --> 00:23:43,359 Speaker 1: he keeps saying, well, it's coming, it's coming, you know what, 349 00:23:43,920 --> 00:23:46,240 Speaker 1: you know what, Just come on and rob me, put 350 00:23:46,359 --> 00:23:50,400 Speaker 1: a gun to my face, don't sneak around and steal 351 00:23:50,560 --> 00:23:54,119 Speaker 1: my money. So when you say white collar crime, he 352 00:23:54,440 --> 00:23:59,120 Speaker 1: stole money from these people, and the law firm found out, 353 00:23:59,240 --> 00:24:03,240 Speaker 1: and the law firm had to cover it. Guys, take 354 00:24:03,280 --> 00:24:06,879 Speaker 1: a listen to our cut eleven. Let's talk about the 355 00:24:06,960 --> 00:24:10,640 Speaker 1: Badger case. What was the total settlement in that particular 356 00:24:10,720 --> 00:24:14,200 Speaker 1: case three point one million. What was the attorney fee 357 00:24:14,320 --> 00:24:17,240 Speaker 1: that he received in that settlement? He received one million, 358 00:24:17,320 --> 00:24:21,320 Speaker 1: two hundred and forty thousand dollars the firm firm that 359 00:24:21,359 --> 00:24:23,240 Speaker 1: would be ultimately on his books at the end of 360 00:24:23,280 --> 00:24:25,479 Speaker 1: the year, it would be credited him. What else did 361 00:24:25,560 --> 00:24:29,679 Speaker 1: Elek take one million, three hundred and twenty five thousand 362 00:24:29,720 --> 00:24:31,879 Speaker 1: dollars and how did he how did he all go 363 00:24:31,920 --> 00:24:36,120 Speaker 1: about doing that? Um checks for Pebble Palmetta State Bank 364 00:24:36,800 --> 00:24:42,359 Speaker 1: that were then converted into personal items. And down here 365 00:24:43,240 --> 00:24:46,119 Speaker 1: we have Palmetta State Bank payment to fund structure for 366 00:24:46,400 --> 00:24:49,119 Speaker 1: client request. Is that right? That's right? And that's the 367 00:24:49,200 --> 00:24:52,160 Speaker 1: one point three to five million, that's correct? And did 368 00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:55,159 Speaker 1: that go to the client? Now? In an email to 369 00:24:55,400 --> 00:24:58,720 Speaker 1: Elk which was forwarded to me and my accounting staff 370 00:24:58,880 --> 00:25:01,600 Speaker 1: asking if we could read cut the one point three 371 00:25:01,800 --> 00:25:05,080 Speaker 1: million dollar check into four different checks and they were 372 00:25:05,119 --> 00:25:08,800 Speaker 1: made out to what entity? Palmeta State Bank? And then 373 00:25:08,840 --> 00:25:11,200 Speaker 1: after they were made out the Palmeta State Bank, what 374 00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:14,240 Speaker 1: happened to them? They got converted to personal usage for 375 00:25:14,320 --> 00:25:21,320 Speaker 1: Alick Murdock's benefit, personal usage for Alex Murdock's benefit for 376 00:25:21,520 --> 00:25:26,040 Speaker 1: what what was he doing with all that money? Was 377 00:25:26,080 --> 00:25:30,920 Speaker 1: it drugs? Was it gambling? Was that other women millions 378 00:25:31,040 --> 00:25:34,240 Speaker 1: and millions of dollars? And why did the other partners 379 00:25:34,320 --> 00:25:38,320 Speaker 1: stand by and let it happen. Did nobody notice what 380 00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:40,920 Speaker 1: was going on? Take a listen. I were cut nine 381 00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:45,080 Speaker 1: on the morning of Friday, September three at Lee Cove's house, 382 00:25:45,240 --> 00:25:48,920 Speaker 1: with the majority of the partners and myself present. We 383 00:25:49,359 --> 00:25:52,600 Speaker 1: discussed what we had found and showed everybody the documentation 384 00:25:52,840 --> 00:25:56,360 Speaker 1: that we had recovered, and then the choice was made. 385 00:25:56,440 --> 00:25:59,000 Speaker 1: We needed to talk to Alec that it looked like 386 00:25:59,080 --> 00:26:02,080 Speaker 1: he had stolen and it is my understanding that Elik 387 00:26:02,160 --> 00:26:05,919 Speaker 1: admitted it and that it was determined he would resign. 388 00:26:06,200 --> 00:26:08,359 Speaker 1: I think he tried to do a few other things 389 00:26:08,440 --> 00:26:12,560 Speaker 1: before resigning, but we made him resign. I wonder what 390 00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:15,080 Speaker 1: she meant by do a few other things. Now, this 391 00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:20,280 Speaker 1: is where Amy Zimmerchek, high profile lawyer for Curtis cousin 392 00:26:20,440 --> 00:26:25,600 Speaker 1: Eddie Smith, comes in. Wait for it, Amy, take a listen. 393 00:26:25,720 --> 00:26:28,800 Speaker 1: Just as they're trying to iron out all of Alex 394 00:26:28,880 --> 00:26:33,440 Speaker 1: and Murdog's stealing and buzzling outright just taking right out 395 00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:36,280 Speaker 1: of the bank accounts of his clients. Take a listen 396 00:26:36,720 --> 00:26:39,640 Speaker 1: to our cut ten. The next thing I heard about 397 00:26:39,680 --> 00:26:42,760 Speaker 1: Elik was Elik had been shot and had it was 398 00:26:42,840 --> 00:26:45,200 Speaker 1: being flown out to Savannam, was that on the side 399 00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:48,440 Speaker 1: of the road at Old Salkahatchie. That's what's the first 400 00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:50,040 Speaker 1: thing you thought when you heard he had been shot. 401 00:26:52,840 --> 00:26:54,960 Speaker 1: You know, nobody knew what to think. A lot of 402 00:26:55,040 --> 00:26:58,720 Speaker 1: thoughts went through, but fear went through. Was this retaliation 403 00:26:59,520 --> 00:27:03,560 Speaker 1: was and something bigger that was going to get more 404 00:27:03,600 --> 00:27:08,280 Speaker 1: of us in trouble and just fear. You know, Robert Crispin, 405 00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:13,520 Speaker 1: former homicide detective Miami Field Division, now at Crispin Investigations 406 00:27:13,640 --> 00:27:17,919 Speaker 1: dot com. You know, Robert, if I heard God forbid 407 00:27:18,080 --> 00:27:19,600 Speaker 1: that you were shot on the side of the road, 408 00:27:20,280 --> 00:27:23,520 Speaker 1: my first thought would not be, Oh, is this part 409 00:27:23,640 --> 00:27:27,800 Speaker 1: of a bigger crime? Is this retaliation for wrongdoing by 410 00:27:27,920 --> 00:27:31,680 Speaker 1: Robert Crispin? But this lady and she's just telling the truth. 411 00:27:32,320 --> 00:27:38,720 Speaker 1: They ow, oh, oh, oh, what's this about? They immediately thought, well, 412 00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:42,480 Speaker 1: you know what, somebody got him back for all the well, 413 00:27:42,840 --> 00:27:45,040 Speaker 1: I promise I quit cursing when the twins were born, 414 00:27:45,840 --> 00:27:49,399 Speaker 1: for all the let me just say Shenanigans that Alex 415 00:27:49,560 --> 00:27:53,320 Speaker 1: Murdogg had pulled. That's their first thought. Crispin. Well, yeah, 416 00:27:53,359 --> 00:27:55,920 Speaker 1: so let's talk about this witness who's testifying today. First, 417 00:27:56,200 --> 00:27:59,639 Speaker 1: what a solid witness and the defense is going to 418 00:27:59,640 --> 00:28:04,359 Speaker 1: have big time problem with her. And she is going 419 00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:08,080 Speaker 1: case by case, client by client and showing the theft. 420 00:28:08,280 --> 00:28:10,600 Speaker 1: And again it goes back to digital evidence. This is 421 00:28:10,760 --> 00:28:14,040 Speaker 1: digital evidence. You're not getting out of this. It comes 422 00:28:14,119 --> 00:28:16,879 Speaker 1: back to him. Now, let's speed things up. Let's go 423 00:28:16,960 --> 00:28:20,199 Speaker 1: to the attempted suicide. You know what really hurts him 424 00:28:20,240 --> 00:28:23,080 Speaker 1: on that and law enforcement. I guarantee you from the 425 00:28:23,160 --> 00:28:25,280 Speaker 1: time they showed up, knew that something was up with this. 426 00:28:26,040 --> 00:28:28,399 Speaker 1: In his nine one one call, what does he do. 427 00:28:29,080 --> 00:28:31,840 Speaker 1: He starts to talk about his alibi. He doesn't talk 428 00:28:31,880 --> 00:28:34,600 Speaker 1: about being shot in the head until several seconds deep 429 00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:38,160 Speaker 1: inside the nine one one operator even asked him, have 430 00:28:38,360 --> 00:28:41,720 Speaker 1: you been shot? And there's a pause and they says, yeah, 431 00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:46,000 Speaker 1: in the head. I'm sorry. I've listened to thousands of 432 00:28:46,200 --> 00:28:49,360 Speaker 1: nine one one calls and I've responded to several shootings. 433 00:28:50,240 --> 00:28:52,480 Speaker 1: Listen to the nine one one call. People are screaming 434 00:28:52,600 --> 00:28:55,720 Speaker 1: I've been shot, I've been shot, or they're trying to 435 00:28:55,800 --> 00:28:58,640 Speaker 1: scream out what their offender looks like. You know, put 436 00:28:58,720 --> 00:29:01,560 Speaker 1: your alibi up front. That's exactly what happened here. This 437 00:29:01,760 --> 00:29:04,480 Speaker 1: is exactly what happened during one of his first two interviews. 438 00:29:05,040 --> 00:29:08,600 Speaker 1: Notice he's a former prosecutor. He always puts that alibi 439 00:29:08,920 --> 00:29:11,520 Speaker 1: out front first, because you know, if I had been 440 00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:14,680 Speaker 1: shot and I was afraid I was dying, the first 441 00:29:14,760 --> 00:29:17,040 Speaker 1: thing I've said would not be Hey, I got a 442 00:29:17,120 --> 00:29:20,120 Speaker 1: flat tire. That's not how that would normally go down. 443 00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:23,840 Speaker 1: And remember his then lawyer told everybody that he had 444 00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:30,720 Speaker 1: had horrendous life changing injuries with a brain injury. Then 445 00:29:30,760 --> 00:29:34,520 Speaker 1: he showed up with a band aid, a flesh colored 446 00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:40,320 Speaker 1: band aid. Now this is where Amy Zimmerchek comes in. Amy, again, 447 00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:42,920 Speaker 1: you've got your work cut out for you. I do 448 00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:45,520 Speaker 1: not envy you at all, but that's why you have 449 00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:49,120 Speaker 1: such a good reputation. He managed to somehow turn lemons 450 00:29:49,160 --> 00:29:54,200 Speaker 1: into lemonade every time. Amy, your client, Curtis Edward Smith, 451 00:29:54,760 --> 00:30:04,479 Speaker 1: stands accused of shooting Alex murdog at murdoch request, let 452 00:30:04,560 --> 00:30:09,840 Speaker 1: me ask you this. When your client comes before this jury, 453 00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:12,240 Speaker 1: and we have every reason to think that he is, 454 00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:18,040 Speaker 1: what is his potential testimony. Well, certainly I can't devolde 455 00:30:18,040 --> 00:30:21,440 Speaker 1: any attorney client privilege. I think that that you know, 456 00:30:21,600 --> 00:30:26,040 Speaker 1: will I think that what Depending on what the judge's 457 00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:29,240 Speaker 1: ruling comes in. I think that what you'll see and 458 00:30:29,400 --> 00:30:32,800 Speaker 1: what you'll and hopefully what the jury will begin to understand, 459 00:30:32,920 --> 00:30:35,000 Speaker 1: it's just like you've already picked up is the rest 460 00:30:35,120 --> 00:30:38,280 Speaker 1: jest date. Is the is the background behind what kind 461 00:30:38,320 --> 00:30:42,320 Speaker 1: of person says and does things over and over and 462 00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:45,440 Speaker 1: how they do them, and why they do them, why 463 00:30:45,520 --> 00:30:48,040 Speaker 1: they go into into it self protection mode or an 464 00:30:48,040 --> 00:30:51,200 Speaker 1: alibi mode. And I do believe that if it's argued 465 00:30:51,240 --> 00:30:55,840 Speaker 1: correctly by the prosecution, that that does fall squarely within 466 00:30:55,960 --> 00:30:58,760 Speaker 1: the rest jes da, within the why do we have 467 00:30:58,880 --> 00:31:01,360 Speaker 1: to bring this information in? Because it's not just about 468 00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:03,800 Speaker 1: one incident. It's not just about the financial crime, it's 469 00:31:03,840 --> 00:31:07,760 Speaker 1: not just about you know, the roadside shooting incident. It's 470 00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:11,800 Speaker 1: about all of these things together and what they did 471 00:31:11,960 --> 00:31:16,320 Speaker 1: to in the mind of Alec Murdoch to have a 472 00:31:16,400 --> 00:31:18,640 Speaker 1: fland here in front of those twelve jurors that are 473 00:31:18,640 --> 00:31:21,000 Speaker 1: going to make that DECI rest jes da, of course, 474 00:31:21,680 --> 00:31:25,600 Speaker 1: is a Latin phrase that lawyers throw around, and what 475 00:31:25,760 --> 00:31:29,800 Speaker 1: it means very simply is the facts and circumstances that 476 00:31:29,880 --> 00:31:34,880 Speaker 1: are so intimately connected to the crime itself. It could 477 00:31:34,960 --> 00:31:39,880 Speaker 1: be hearsay, but it's rest jest da. It said basically 478 00:31:40,120 --> 00:31:44,080 Speaker 1: at the time or just before or surrounding the crime. 479 00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:48,720 Speaker 1: That is an exception to the hearsay rule. There are 480 00:31:48,760 --> 00:31:51,920 Speaker 1: many exceptions to the hearsay rule, but it is allowed 481 00:31:52,040 --> 00:31:54,640 Speaker 1: in because it is rest jest da. It kind of 482 00:31:54,720 --> 00:31:59,280 Speaker 1: helps explain the nature of the crime, and it is 483 00:31:59,480 --> 00:32:03,200 Speaker 1: allowed into evidence. So you know, first of all, we 484 00:32:03,320 --> 00:32:07,000 Speaker 1: got to look at the actual injury to Alex Murdog 485 00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:10,600 Speaker 1: that afternoon on that rural road. And two, I mean, 486 00:32:10,760 --> 00:32:15,680 Speaker 1: you gotta wonder if he would arrange that shooting, what 487 00:32:15,880 --> 00:32:18,800 Speaker 1: else would he do. I want to go to you, 488 00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:21,640 Speaker 1: doctor Michelle Duprie. He's joining me there in South Carolina. 489 00:32:21,760 --> 00:32:26,440 Speaker 1: Former forensic pathologists, medical examiner, detective and author of Homicide 490 00:32:26,640 --> 00:32:30,880 Speaker 1: Investigation Field Guide. She said, d Michelle dupremd dot com. 491 00:32:31,360 --> 00:32:33,600 Speaker 1: Doctor Michelle, thank you for being with us. Do you 492 00:32:33,760 --> 00:32:37,480 Speaker 1: remember when you and I looked at Alex and Murdogg's 493 00:32:37,520 --> 00:32:41,120 Speaker 1: so called brain injury It was a band aid, It 494 00:32:41,280 --> 00:32:44,000 Speaker 1: was a joke, Nancy, I do remember that. And whoever 495 00:32:44,280 --> 00:32:48,000 Speaker 1: supposedly tried to shoot you, they need remedio markin. Yeah, 496 00:32:48,120 --> 00:32:50,760 Speaker 1: you know that, Amy Zimmrichet, you might mention that to 497 00:32:50,840 --> 00:32:52,800 Speaker 1: Curtis Eddie Smith, that he needs to go take a 498 00:32:52,840 --> 00:32:56,600 Speaker 1: little time at the target at the arrange because he 499 00:32:56,800 --> 00:33:01,000 Speaker 1: was meaning to kill Murdog. He's a bad shot. But 500 00:33:01,080 --> 00:33:03,760 Speaker 1: you know what, I'm glad he's in a court of 501 00:33:03,880 --> 00:33:06,640 Speaker 1: law right now so we can get some answers. Kelly 502 00:33:06,680 --> 00:33:09,400 Speaker 1: Skein is joining me right now. Fox Nation producer for 503 00:33:09,520 --> 00:33:13,600 Speaker 1: Crime Stories. Kelly. Of course, the jury did not hear 504 00:33:13,720 --> 00:33:16,440 Speaker 1: everything that was happening today. Correct, No, they did not 505 00:33:16,600 --> 00:33:19,400 Speaker 1: hear there was so yesterday. What happened is Jim Griffin, 506 00:33:19,440 --> 00:33:23,760 Speaker 1: Alec Murdock's defense attorney asked Paul Murdoch's friend, could you 507 00:33:23,840 --> 00:33:26,640 Speaker 1: think of any reason why Alec Murdock would kill his 508 00:33:26,880 --> 00:33:30,400 Speaker 1: wife and son? The friend said no. But essentially, Alec 509 00:33:30,480 --> 00:33:33,240 Speaker 1: Murdock's own defense team kicked out door wide open for 510 00:33:33,320 --> 00:33:36,000 Speaker 1: all of this other evidence on other crimes to be 511 00:33:36,080 --> 00:33:40,840 Speaker 1: admitted into court to talk about Alec Murdock's character. So 512 00:33:40,880 --> 00:33:42,840 Speaker 1: you can imagine he's probably not too happy with his 513 00:33:42,960 --> 00:33:47,160 Speaker 1: defense team in this very moment. Okay, Kelly, slow it 514 00:33:47,280 --> 00:33:51,960 Speaker 1: down and repeat one more time. Why this is happening. 515 00:33:52,160 --> 00:33:54,400 Speaker 1: All of the witnesses, the witness that you're just seeing 516 00:33:54,720 --> 00:34:03,120 Speaker 1: talking about financial misdoings. In other words, stealing, siponing, embezzling 517 00:34:03,680 --> 00:34:07,440 Speaker 1: millions of dollars from his law firm. As I heard 518 00:34:07,480 --> 00:34:11,080 Speaker 1: that witness describe it a brotherhood of lawyers from me, 519 00:34:11,160 --> 00:34:14,719 Speaker 1: his brotherhood of lawyers from his clients that trusted him. 520 00:34:15,520 --> 00:34:19,920 Speaker 1: How did this happen? Because typically we wouldn't see this. 521 00:34:20,080 --> 00:34:23,040 Speaker 1: You were talking about opening a door. Tell me again 522 00:34:23,120 --> 00:34:27,319 Speaker 1: and slowly, my what exactly happened? Sure? So, yesterday, when 523 00:34:27,400 --> 00:34:31,320 Speaker 1: Paul Murdoch's friend was on the stand, Alec Murdock's defense 524 00:34:31,360 --> 00:34:33,719 Speaker 1: attorney asked him, can you think of any reason why 525 00:34:33,760 --> 00:34:36,480 Speaker 1: Alec Murdoch would kill his own wife and son? The 526 00:34:36,640 --> 00:34:39,840 Speaker 1: friend said no, But that opened the door for the 527 00:34:39,960 --> 00:34:42,920 Speaker 1: state to ask a question about did you know anything 528 00:34:42,960 --> 00:34:46,480 Speaker 1: about the financial crimes? They said no. The defense team objected. 529 00:34:46,680 --> 00:34:49,400 Speaker 1: The judge called the objection totally inappropriate and said we 530 00:34:49,440 --> 00:34:52,040 Speaker 1: would address it this morning in court. We did, But 531 00:34:52,200 --> 00:34:53,880 Speaker 1: none of these arguments can be heard in front of 532 00:34:53,920 --> 00:34:56,759 Speaker 1: a jury because technically the case that they're hearing right 533 00:34:56,800 --> 00:35:00,280 Speaker 1: now is the murder child. They are not hearing about 534 00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:03,440 Speaker 1: Alec Murdock's financial crime. So the state and the defense 535 00:35:03,480 --> 00:35:05,800 Speaker 1: teams are going back and forth on whether any of 536 00:35:05,880 --> 00:35:08,239 Speaker 1: this will be admitted in front of a jury, and 537 00:35:08,520 --> 00:35:10,600 Speaker 1: we don't know if the jury will hear any of 538 00:35:10,680 --> 00:35:13,200 Speaker 1: this yet, Kelly, where is the jury during all this? 539 00:35:13,560 --> 00:35:15,680 Speaker 1: They're in the break room. They were waiting for lunch. 540 00:35:15,760 --> 00:35:18,279 Speaker 1: The judge dismissed them, the bailiffs took them out, and 541 00:35:18,400 --> 00:35:22,960 Speaker 1: they're waiting. Okay, you know, Amy's zimmerchick. This is why 542 00:35:23,080 --> 00:35:25,440 Speaker 1: people hate lawyers, well, one of the many reasons they 543 00:35:25,440 --> 00:35:28,960 Speaker 1: hate lawyers. They have been sitting and that jury room, 544 00:35:29,200 --> 00:35:31,360 Speaker 1: which is a very small about the side of somebody's 545 00:35:31,440 --> 00:35:35,480 Speaker 1: dining room, waiting to come in court while the lawyers 546 00:35:35,600 --> 00:35:37,719 Speaker 1: do this. I swear, Amy, and I don't know if 547 00:35:37,719 --> 00:35:40,240 Speaker 1: you agree with me or not. Whenever that would happen 548 00:35:40,440 --> 00:35:42,600 Speaker 1: to me, I would tell the other side, you know what, 549 00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:44,839 Speaker 1: we need to do this after we let the jury 550 00:35:44,920 --> 00:35:47,600 Speaker 1: go home and not have them sitting in a room 551 00:35:48,080 --> 00:35:50,480 Speaker 1: waiting for us to figure out what to do with 552 00:35:50,600 --> 00:35:54,440 Speaker 1: the evidence, because I think that's a huge miscarriage for 553 00:35:54,560 --> 00:35:57,080 Speaker 1: the jury to have to sit there and twiddle their 554 00:35:57,120 --> 00:35:59,080 Speaker 1: thumbs while the lawyers duke get out in court. They 555 00:35:59,120 --> 00:36:01,799 Speaker 1: should have done that less night. But did you hear 556 00:36:01,880 --> 00:36:05,480 Speaker 1: Amy zimmercheck when Kelly Skin said, I mean I'm not 557 00:36:05,600 --> 00:36:08,160 Speaker 1: sure which defense lawyer it was that asked this question, 558 00:36:08,600 --> 00:36:11,720 Speaker 1: but I mean, really, are you serious that they really 559 00:36:11,920 --> 00:36:17,120 Speaker 1: asked this question to a state's witness. Amy, can you 560 00:36:17,400 --> 00:36:21,160 Speaker 1: think of any reason that Alex Bardo I would shoot 561 00:36:21,160 --> 00:36:24,799 Speaker 1: his wife and son? Well, heck yeah, I could think 562 00:36:24,840 --> 00:36:29,719 Speaker 1: of a lot of reasons. They opened the door, Amy Zimmercheck, 563 00:36:30,920 --> 00:36:33,240 Speaker 1: I believe that they not opened the door. I believe 564 00:36:33,280 --> 00:36:35,880 Speaker 1: that they fully kicked it open, and not just with 565 00:36:36,000 --> 00:36:39,799 Speaker 1: the second witness. I felt like Creton Waters almost missed 566 00:36:39,840 --> 00:36:42,880 Speaker 1: an opportunity. Jim Griffin did the questioning of both of 567 00:36:42,960 --> 00:36:45,600 Speaker 1: these boys, and that's what they are. They're very young 568 00:36:45,680 --> 00:36:47,320 Speaker 1: men and there I know that this is hard for 569 00:36:47,400 --> 00:36:49,520 Speaker 1: them because they are close with the family and this 570 00:36:49,719 --> 00:36:55,279 Speaker 1: is difficult. But when Jim asked Rogan, you know, can 571 00:36:55,360 --> 00:36:57,680 Speaker 1: you think of any reason? And I was yelling at 572 00:36:58,120 --> 00:37:01,759 Speaker 1: Creton through the computer, like, oh my gosh, he just 573 00:37:02,000 --> 00:37:05,360 Speaker 1: gave you all the reasons all to bring him up. 574 00:37:05,400 --> 00:37:07,239 Speaker 1: Ask him about all of them. He said that he 575 00:37:07,400 --> 00:37:10,279 Speaker 1: knew him very well. He asked him that twice. He 576 00:37:10,360 --> 00:37:11,960 Speaker 1: could have gone into that, but what he did was 577 00:37:12,000 --> 00:37:15,440 Speaker 1: waited till the second witness. And I do believe that 578 00:37:15,600 --> 00:37:18,800 Speaker 1: that was a huge, huge mistake on the defense. I was, 579 00:37:18,880 --> 00:37:22,279 Speaker 1: I was in trial earlier this week, and there was 580 00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:24,360 Speaker 1: an opportunity that I had to be very careful with 581 00:37:24,440 --> 00:37:27,880 Speaker 1: the questions that I crafted on cross because I didn't 582 00:37:27,920 --> 00:37:31,000 Speaker 1: want to open that door to these other potential bad 583 00:37:31,040 --> 00:37:33,880 Speaker 1: acts or these other reasons or these other things. And 584 00:37:34,440 --> 00:37:38,759 Speaker 1: the defense absolutely did that. And I believe that that 585 00:37:38,880 --> 00:37:41,759 Speaker 1: was a huge mistake. Oh my goodness, Amy's immertrate. Let 586 00:37:41,800 --> 00:37:44,120 Speaker 1: me tell you something. Whenever that would happened to me, 587 00:37:44,239 --> 00:37:47,120 Speaker 1: I could not even sit at my seat. I would 588 00:37:47,200 --> 00:37:51,000 Speaker 1: jump up immediately and tell my investigator, go get this person, 589 00:37:51,160 --> 00:37:53,239 Speaker 1: that person, this person, this person, bring me this, bring 590 00:37:53,320 --> 00:37:57,000 Speaker 1: me that they've opened the door. Hell has broken loose. 591 00:37:57,360 --> 00:38:01,360 Speaker 1: And I guarantee you that they well, I don't guarantee you, 592 00:38:01,400 --> 00:38:05,000 Speaker 1: but I bet one of the reasons the state didn't 593 00:38:05,080 --> 00:38:07,680 Speaker 1: jump on it right then is they don't want to mistrial. 594 00:38:09,160 --> 00:38:12,400 Speaker 1: I would have set the jury out and said they 595 00:38:12,480 --> 00:38:15,879 Speaker 1: opened the door, judge. And I'm fixing to walk through 596 00:38:16,000 --> 00:38:18,520 Speaker 1: it with all of my witnesses and all of my 597 00:38:18,680 --> 00:38:22,920 Speaker 1: evidence as to motive right now, because let me explain, 598 00:38:23,000 --> 00:38:26,160 Speaker 1: any non lawyers, real easy lawyers want to make it 599 00:38:26,320 --> 00:38:31,439 Speaker 1: sound hard. It's not hard. Under our constitution, a case 600 00:38:31,480 --> 00:38:35,280 Speaker 1: cannot be tried on somebody's bad reputation. No, the jury 601 00:38:35,400 --> 00:38:37,520 Speaker 1: doesn't know that you did this, and you did that, 602 00:38:37,800 --> 00:38:40,400 Speaker 1: and you had a duy and you cheated on your 603 00:38:40,440 --> 00:38:43,840 Speaker 1: wife and blah blah blah. No, they only hear the 604 00:38:43,960 --> 00:38:47,160 Speaker 1: facts regarding the case in chief, what you were charged with. 605 00:38:48,719 --> 00:38:51,120 Speaker 1: They don't want to take the jury with other bad 606 00:38:51,200 --> 00:38:56,000 Speaker 1: acts unless and until the defense brings it up and 607 00:38:56,239 --> 00:39:00,480 Speaker 1: tries to say there was no motive, was there? Oh yeah, 608 00:39:00,680 --> 00:39:02,640 Speaker 1: there's a motive, all right, And then the steak can 609 00:39:02,680 --> 00:39:09,560 Speaker 1: come back guns ablazing, tailing the jury all about motive. 610 00:39:09,760 --> 00:39:14,480 Speaker 1: And that is what has happened here, Kelly, Which defense 611 00:39:14,719 --> 00:39:19,239 Speaker 1: lawyer did that? Who opened the door? It's interesting you 612 00:39:19,320 --> 00:39:21,960 Speaker 1: asked that it was defense attorney to Jim Griffin. And 613 00:39:22,160 --> 00:39:25,560 Speaker 1: up until this point, we've really seen Dick Harpultan asking 614 00:39:25,680 --> 00:39:28,000 Speaker 1: many of the questions. But he's been getting a lot 615 00:39:28,040 --> 00:39:30,919 Speaker 1: of criticism for kind of bumbling through this trial. He's 616 00:39:30,920 --> 00:39:34,200 Speaker 1: a very high priced attorney, has a very good reputation, 617 00:39:34,360 --> 00:39:37,319 Speaker 1: but really isn't kind of showing his stuff in court. 618 00:39:37,440 --> 00:39:40,800 Speaker 1: So we've seen him at the table and Jim Griffin 619 00:39:40,920 --> 00:39:43,560 Speaker 1: doing more of this line of questioning, and also Alec 620 00:39:43,640 --> 00:39:46,360 Speaker 1: Murdock has been playing a big role in his own defense. 621 00:39:46,440 --> 00:39:49,319 Speaker 1: We see him conferring with his attorneys before the jury 622 00:39:49,400 --> 00:39:52,200 Speaker 1: comes in during court every day. But the lawyer who 623 00:39:52,239 --> 00:40:13,600 Speaker 1: specifically asked that question was Jim Griffin. Crime Stories with 624 00:40:13,800 --> 00:40:18,400 Speaker 1: Nancy grace Hey. Robert Crispin joining me, former homicide detective 625 00:40:18,480 --> 00:40:23,480 Speaker 1: formerly with d O J. Crispin Investigations dot Com. Robert, 626 00:40:24,040 --> 00:40:27,880 Speaker 1: did you hear the witness talking about the financial missdoing? 627 00:40:28,000 --> 00:40:31,080 Speaker 1: Jane Secondary and she's just come off the stand. I 628 00:40:31,120 --> 00:40:32,879 Speaker 1: don't think they're done with her yet. By the way, 629 00:40:33,280 --> 00:40:37,480 Speaker 1: the CFO of the Murdog Law firm, and she said 630 00:40:38,080 --> 00:40:42,640 Speaker 1: she came upon Alex Murdog and he gave her this 631 00:40:43,000 --> 00:40:49,239 Speaker 1: dirty look. Robert, can I tell you the look, the 632 00:40:49,520 --> 00:40:55,440 Speaker 1: piercing looks he was giving jurars. I think it really 633 00:40:55,600 --> 00:41:00,800 Speaker 1: made an impact on them. Yeah, a pivotal moment for 634 00:41:01,000 --> 00:41:03,520 Speaker 1: him and her. When she said, well, let's just go 635 00:41:03,680 --> 00:41:05,560 Speaker 1: into your office and I'll tell you what's going on. 636 00:41:05,960 --> 00:41:09,160 Speaker 1: I think at that point he probably realized I've got 637 00:41:09,239 --> 00:41:11,399 Speaker 1: problems and this girl knows, and I'm gonna be honest 638 00:41:11,440 --> 00:41:15,200 Speaker 1: with you. Nancy. This witness, if there was a list 639 00:41:15,280 --> 00:41:18,879 Speaker 1: of people to eliminate, potentially could be on that list, 640 00:41:19,280 --> 00:41:21,239 Speaker 1: because it sounds to me like she did her own 641 00:41:21,320 --> 00:41:24,800 Speaker 1: investigation and she found a lot of stuff. And I 642 00:41:24,920 --> 00:41:27,840 Speaker 1: think at that moment that was the pivotal moment that 643 00:41:28,000 --> 00:41:31,360 Speaker 1: he realized I've got problems, and I think the perfect 644 00:41:31,440 --> 00:41:34,120 Speaker 1: storm started to come together and it started to all 645 00:41:34,480 --> 00:41:38,560 Speaker 1: fall apart. Well, another thing, Amy's immerchet with me high 646 00:41:38,600 --> 00:41:44,760 Speaker 1: profile lawyer who is representing Curtis aka Eddie Edward Smith. 647 00:41:45,920 --> 00:41:48,239 Speaker 1: This goes back to Murdoch getting shot in the head 648 00:41:48,280 --> 00:41:51,520 Speaker 1: on a rural road. I don't know how familiar you 649 00:41:51,680 --> 00:41:54,120 Speaker 1: are with the Murdog Law firm, or if you know 650 00:41:54,239 --> 00:41:57,720 Speaker 1: the lawyers within the Murdog Law firm, but I'm wondering 651 00:41:57,880 --> 00:42:04,120 Speaker 1: if this witness, Miss Jane Inger, is very articulate, She's calm, poised, 652 00:42:05,440 --> 00:42:10,760 Speaker 1: and she never breaks. I wonder if she knew Maggie. 653 00:42:10,880 --> 00:42:13,759 Speaker 1: I mean, she had to know Maggie. I know that 654 00:42:13,960 --> 00:42:17,120 Speaker 1: they were a very close knit PMPE, which was the 655 00:42:17,200 --> 00:42:20,959 Speaker 1: old law firm before now it's the Parker Law Group. 656 00:42:21,160 --> 00:42:24,200 Speaker 1: But I believe that they were all very close. I 657 00:42:24,320 --> 00:42:28,239 Speaker 1: think that you know, not only did her husband work there, 658 00:42:28,280 --> 00:42:32,080 Speaker 1: but her brother in law, Randy Murdoch, and for quite 659 00:42:32,160 --> 00:42:36,560 Speaker 1: some time her father in law, Randolph what they call handsome. 660 00:42:37,040 --> 00:42:39,680 Speaker 1: They were all, you know, they were all a very 661 00:42:39,760 --> 00:42:44,440 Speaker 1: close knit group. And I think that that's probably a 662 00:42:44,520 --> 00:42:47,080 Speaker 1: little bit of her anger in her hurt, is that 663 00:42:48,840 --> 00:42:50,960 Speaker 1: all of this is happening and she's learning about all 664 00:42:51,040 --> 00:42:54,799 Speaker 1: of these things, and I would be frustrated in an 665 00:42:54,960 --> 00:42:57,880 Speaker 1: upset as well. I wonder if they realized that the 666 00:42:58,719 --> 00:43:04,200 Speaker 1: name PMP sounds like pimpy. That's just me, is that 667 00:43:04,320 --> 00:43:07,320 Speaker 1: you doctor Michelle Duprey jumping in Quartier. She was talking 668 00:43:07,360 --> 00:43:10,080 Speaker 1: about how they would switch on and off from you know, 669 00:43:10,360 --> 00:43:13,080 Speaker 1: being co workers to being more like friends and family. 670 00:43:13,200 --> 00:43:15,680 Speaker 1: And I think Amy said this earlier. It really was 671 00:43:15,840 --> 00:43:18,800 Speaker 1: like a brotherhood. And in the middle of the CFO 672 00:43:18,960 --> 00:43:22,879 Speaker 1: confronting Alec Murdoch about these funds, she still was saying 673 00:43:22,920 --> 00:43:24,680 Speaker 1: that she was giving him the benefit of the doubt 674 00:43:24,760 --> 00:43:27,759 Speaker 1: and thought that these funds existed somewhere else, that he 675 00:43:27,840 --> 00:43:30,319 Speaker 1: had put them in another account. She never thought, oh, 676 00:43:30,400 --> 00:43:32,879 Speaker 1: he blew through all of this money and stole all 677 00:43:32,960 --> 00:43:36,480 Speaker 1: of our clients money. Never, well, we're going to hear 678 00:43:36,600 --> 00:43:39,560 Speaker 1: a total and I believe it's between seven and eight 679 00:43:39,640 --> 00:43:43,080 Speaker 1: million dollars that they know of that was stole, not 680 00:43:43,320 --> 00:43:48,040 Speaker 1: only from the law firm itself, but from the clients. 681 00:43:48,880 --> 00:43:51,960 Speaker 1: And what it's going to boil down to is motive 682 00:43:52,520 --> 00:43:56,000 Speaker 1: for murder. I want to go to doctor Michelle Duprie 683 00:43:56,160 --> 00:44:01,160 Speaker 1: joining me pathologists, medical examiner, and this is important former detective, 684 00:44:01,880 --> 00:44:06,040 Speaker 1: author of Homicide Investigation Field Guide, Doctor dupris, I have 685 00:44:06,160 --> 00:44:12,040 Speaker 1: seen murders over five dollars. I've seen a murder of 686 00:44:12,160 --> 00:44:16,879 Speaker 1: a mother, a woman sitting outside on her porch over 687 00:44:17,600 --> 00:44:22,040 Speaker 1: a drug deal, a neighbor maid. I just thinks you 688 00:44:22,080 --> 00:44:26,480 Speaker 1: would never imagine someone would think worthy of a murder. 689 00:44:27,320 --> 00:44:31,440 Speaker 1: But here we see the law firm has asked him 690 00:44:31,480 --> 00:44:38,200 Speaker 1: to leave. Everything's coming out, his alleged drug problem, just 691 00:44:38,360 --> 00:44:42,759 Speaker 1: so many things are happening, his swimming in debt, and 692 00:44:42,960 --> 00:44:45,920 Speaker 1: now his wife wants a divorce and she's going to 693 00:44:46,000 --> 00:44:49,319 Speaker 1: find out all about his financial misdeeds, and they don't 694 00:44:49,360 --> 00:44:53,919 Speaker 1: have any money left. Motive for a murder. I guess 695 00:44:53,960 --> 00:44:56,160 Speaker 1: you've seen murders for a lot less than that. Doctor 696 00:44:56,200 --> 00:44:58,799 Speaker 1: Michelle dupris absolutely Nancy, and you know we keep hearing 697 00:44:58,880 --> 00:45:01,520 Speaker 1: that this is a distraction, and that the pretty much 698 00:45:01,560 --> 00:45:04,880 Speaker 1: the whole motivation was a distraction from these financial crimes. 699 00:45:05,080 --> 00:45:07,759 Speaker 1: But I don't think that's exactly true when we look 700 00:45:07,800 --> 00:45:10,680 Speaker 1: at this everything that you've just said. You know, there's 701 00:45:10,680 --> 00:45:13,440 Speaker 1: a divorce going on. She may have actually found I mean, 702 00:45:13,480 --> 00:45:15,480 Speaker 1: she was a bookkeeper at some point in time. She 703 00:45:15,600 --> 00:45:17,960 Speaker 1: may have told Alex that if she didn't get a divorce, 704 00:45:18,040 --> 00:45:21,480 Speaker 1: she would expose that. And also his son, Paul, He's 705 00:45:21,520 --> 00:45:24,440 Speaker 1: been a problem for a long time. He's always been 706 00:45:24,480 --> 00:45:27,680 Speaker 1: in trouble. So I think there are multiple reasons here 707 00:45:27,960 --> 00:45:31,440 Speaker 1: for Alex who have possibly snapped and committed these murders, 708 00:45:31,480 --> 00:45:35,080 Speaker 1: allegedly committed these murders. You know. Another issue is the 709 00:45:35,280 --> 00:45:38,839 Speaker 1: hearings and the Mallory Beach death, which you all knows 710 00:45:38,920 --> 00:45:42,000 Speaker 1: the team girl that was on the boat with Paul Murdog. 711 00:45:42,840 --> 00:45:46,960 Speaker 1: He was drunk and speeding. He slammed into cement pilings 712 00:45:47,000 --> 00:45:51,120 Speaker 1: and she goes flying off she died. Hearing is regarding 713 00:45:51,239 --> 00:45:56,400 Speaker 1: that we're gearing up the divorce, the law firm, the money, 714 00:45:56,840 --> 00:46:00,279 Speaker 1: the drugs, it was all imploding. But you know, to me, 715 00:46:00,480 --> 00:46:02,839 Speaker 1: he seems like the kind of person. Let me ask 716 00:46:02,880 --> 00:46:05,719 Speaker 1: you this, Robert Crispin, You've seen so many criminals that 717 00:46:05,880 --> 00:46:10,760 Speaker 1: he was always finding a way to wiggle out of anything. 718 00:46:11,280 --> 00:46:16,000 Speaker 1: And I wonder if that day, don't get mad about this, 719 00:46:16,120 --> 00:46:21,360 Speaker 1: Amy zimmer Check, the day that he allegedly had Curtis 720 00:46:21,520 --> 00:46:25,360 Speaker 1: Edward Smith shoot him, I wonder if it was planned 721 00:46:26,360 --> 00:46:28,480 Speaker 1: for him to be shot on the side of his head, 722 00:46:29,120 --> 00:46:32,120 Speaker 1: maybe cousin Edie was a lot better shot than we know, 723 00:46:32,800 --> 00:46:36,920 Speaker 1: and not actually kill him and then make it appear 724 00:46:37,600 --> 00:46:40,480 Speaker 1: that the assailant who shot him was the same person 725 00:46:40,880 --> 00:46:43,920 Speaker 1: that shot Paul and Maggie. Yeah. Well, as an investigator, 726 00:46:43,960 --> 00:46:47,719 Speaker 1: we call that a diversion. And if they wanted to 727 00:46:47,760 --> 00:46:49,160 Speaker 1: shoot him in the head and kill him on the 728 00:46:49,200 --> 00:46:51,360 Speaker 1: side of the road while he's on his knees changing 729 00:46:51,440 --> 00:46:55,880 Speaker 1: his tire, that would have happened, trust me. So it 730 00:46:56,040 --> 00:46:59,320 Speaker 1: was a diversion. As an investigator, I'm gonna tell you 731 00:46:59,360 --> 00:47:01,279 Speaker 1: they probably all that as soon as they walked up. 732 00:47:01,320 --> 00:47:04,120 Speaker 1: They knew everything that's been kind of going on already. 733 00:47:04,560 --> 00:47:07,000 Speaker 1: Then they listened to that nine one one call. It 734 00:47:07,200 --> 00:47:11,240 Speaker 1: just didn't fit. And this is why this is all started. Crispin. 735 00:47:11,360 --> 00:47:13,560 Speaker 1: Hold on, we're running out of time and we haven't 736 00:47:13,600 --> 00:47:19,359 Speaker 1: even gotten to discuss the change of wardrobe. Guys, can 737 00:47:19,440 --> 00:47:22,000 Speaker 1: I see that two screen you showed early? It was 738 00:47:22,080 --> 00:47:25,160 Speaker 1: so awesome, Thank you for making that. You see Alex 739 00:47:25,320 --> 00:47:30,040 Speaker 1: Murdog outside wearing one outfit and they're obviously looking there 740 00:47:30,120 --> 00:47:32,680 Speaker 1: you go with a tree falling over and I think 741 00:47:32,719 --> 00:47:35,200 Speaker 1: you can hear Paul in the background as well. And 742 00:47:35,360 --> 00:47:38,360 Speaker 1: then just a couple of hours later, whoa, there is 743 00:47:38,560 --> 00:47:41,120 Speaker 1: in a very clean shirt with the blood spatters on it. 744 00:47:41,400 --> 00:47:45,279 Speaker 1: What happened to those other clothes? Where are they? Did 745 00:47:45,440 --> 00:47:49,800 Speaker 1: Murdog discard bloody clothes? Okay? Kelly Ski and Fox Nation 746 00:47:50,160 --> 00:47:53,440 Speaker 1: senior producer joining us at the courthouse. What about it, Kelly? 747 00:47:53,600 --> 00:47:56,200 Speaker 1: We have no idea where these clothes are, Nancy. But 748 00:47:56,320 --> 00:47:58,440 Speaker 1: something that we will definitely hear more about in this 749 00:47:58,640 --> 00:48:02,000 Speaker 1: trial is the infamous rat that had gunshot residue found 750 00:48:02,320 --> 00:48:05,160 Speaker 1: on the inside, and it was found at Alec Murdoch's 751 00:48:05,560 --> 00:48:09,280 Speaker 1: mom's house. So where the clothes are from the snapchat 752 00:48:09,400 --> 00:48:12,080 Speaker 1: video nobody knows. But what we do know and what 753 00:48:12,200 --> 00:48:14,239 Speaker 1: we are expecting to hear a lot more about this 754 00:48:14,440 --> 00:48:17,239 Speaker 1: is an explosive piece of evidence that the State House 755 00:48:17,360 --> 00:48:20,160 Speaker 1: is that there was gunshot residue on the inside of 756 00:48:20,280 --> 00:48:24,640 Speaker 1: a raincoat that Alec Murdoch somehow had placed at his 757 00:48:24,800 --> 00:48:27,360 Speaker 1: mother's house, as well as on the seat belt of 758 00:48:27,440 --> 00:48:29,680 Speaker 1: his car. You know, I like what you just did there, Keilly. 759 00:48:29,760 --> 00:48:35,080 Speaker 1: Skin You may want to consider future in the legal field, 760 00:48:35,080 --> 00:48:37,560 Speaker 1: because I asked you what happened those clothes and you 761 00:48:37,800 --> 00:48:42,120 Speaker 1: immediately went to the raincoat that was found covered in 762 00:48:42,200 --> 00:48:46,920 Speaker 1: gunshot residue that a witness says Alex Murdog bundled up 763 00:48:47,000 --> 00:48:51,879 Speaker 1: its stuffed somewhere at his mother's house. So I'm wondering, Kelly, 764 00:48:51,920 --> 00:48:54,800 Speaker 1: because I did not catch it in opening statements. But 765 00:48:55,120 --> 00:48:59,080 Speaker 1: did the prosecutor mentioned to the jury in openings that 766 00:48:59,239 --> 00:49:02,439 Speaker 1: they were going to hear year about Alex Murdock making 767 00:49:02,760 --> 00:49:07,720 Speaker 1: a wardrobe change, changing clothes from before the bloody murders 768 00:49:08,200 --> 00:49:10,800 Speaker 1: until the cops got there. He's wearing something completely different. 769 00:49:11,000 --> 00:49:13,680 Speaker 1: You know. I don't remember that from the opening statements. 770 00:49:13,800 --> 00:49:16,320 Speaker 1: But what we have heard from witnesses so far is 771 00:49:16,680 --> 00:49:19,800 Speaker 1: that Alec Murdoch said that he wanted to check Paul's 772 00:49:19,840 --> 00:49:22,120 Speaker 1: pulse and he tried to turn his body over. And 773 00:49:22,280 --> 00:49:24,480 Speaker 1: these witnesses have said, well, one could assume if you 774 00:49:24,560 --> 00:49:27,640 Speaker 1: are turning a body over you would be covered in blood. 775 00:49:27,880 --> 00:49:30,520 Speaker 1: Another witness also said she found it very strange. Alec 776 00:49:30,640 --> 00:49:33,240 Speaker 1: Murdoch was sweating profusely on the night of the murders, 777 00:49:33,440 --> 00:49:36,520 Speaker 1: yet his clothes were dry. So this is definitely not 778 00:49:36,960 --> 00:49:40,399 Speaker 1: the end of the clothes saga in this trial. Doctor 779 00:49:40,480 --> 00:49:44,560 Speaker 1: Michelle Dupree, forensic fathol just medical examiner. You've had to 780 00:49:44,640 --> 00:49:48,319 Speaker 1: turn over plenty of bloody bodies. How come Murdoch had 781 00:49:48,400 --> 00:49:53,120 Speaker 1: no blood on his hands, his arms, his clothes white 782 00:49:53,200 --> 00:49:56,640 Speaker 1: T shirt for Pete's say, yes, nothing exactly, Nancy. I 783 00:49:56,760 --> 00:49:59,040 Speaker 1: cannot explain it. And if that is the case, if 784 00:49:59,080 --> 00:50:01,440 Speaker 1: you really tried to do that, there would be blood 785 00:50:01,600 --> 00:50:04,680 Speaker 1: somewhere on him. That is a real telfhelf hid. I 786 00:50:04,719 --> 00:50:08,640 Speaker 1: mean it least his hands, And I don't like repeating this. 787 00:50:09,200 --> 00:50:12,480 Speaker 1: These are not my words. This was already said in 788 00:50:12,640 --> 00:50:18,640 Speaker 1: court that Paul's brains, his son, Paul's brains were down 789 00:50:19,000 --> 00:50:23,480 Speaker 1: by Paul's seat. Now, how in the world could you 790 00:50:24,239 --> 00:50:28,640 Speaker 1: turn over a body that has been shot that many times, 791 00:50:29,040 --> 00:50:32,439 Speaker 1: both him and Maggie covered in blood, and you don't 792 00:50:32,480 --> 00:50:36,680 Speaker 1: have any blood even on your hands, nothing exactly. I 793 00:50:36,800 --> 00:50:39,120 Speaker 1: cannot explain it, And obviously I think that that is 794 00:50:40,120 --> 00:50:42,160 Speaker 1: not what happened. He would have to have blood on 795 00:50:42,280 --> 00:50:44,840 Speaker 1: him somewhere, and we don't have those clothes that he 796 00:50:44,960 --> 00:50:47,360 Speaker 1: was wearing. There was a video of him standing in 797 00:50:47,400 --> 00:50:50,120 Speaker 1: a field showing him in long fans and a different shirt, 798 00:50:50,600 --> 00:50:54,239 Speaker 1: just a few hours earlier from when the police interrogated 799 00:50:54,360 --> 00:50:57,320 Speaker 1: him or interviewed him. Well, another thing about that amor 800 00:50:57,440 --> 00:51:01,840 Speaker 1: chet guy's high profile lawyer representing Curtis Edward Smith. That 801 00:51:02,120 --> 00:51:05,800 Speaker 1: really will go toward intent that this was not just 802 00:51:06,000 --> 00:51:10,319 Speaker 1: some fleeting moment of anger when he shot his wife 803 00:51:10,400 --> 00:51:13,800 Speaker 1: and son, but intent. He had a change of clothes 804 00:51:14,160 --> 00:51:17,200 Speaker 1: if this is to be believed. Amy zimmerchecked. Well, Nancy, 805 00:51:17,280 --> 00:51:20,920 Speaker 1: I think the bigger problem is that the U and 806 00:51:21,000 --> 00:51:22,960 Speaker 1: I know you haven't seen the picture because that it's 807 00:51:23,080 --> 00:51:26,840 Speaker 1: under protection, but the fact that his phone, his Paul's 808 00:51:26,880 --> 00:51:30,360 Speaker 1: phone that had these two videos on it, these terrible 809 00:51:30,520 --> 00:51:33,879 Speaker 1: videos for the defense, was laying on top of Paul 810 00:51:34,320 --> 00:51:37,520 Speaker 1: because it had fallen out of his pocket somehow, and 811 00:51:38,320 --> 00:51:42,080 Speaker 1: Alec had placed it back on his on his son's 812 00:51:42,400 --> 00:51:45,799 Speaker 1: deceased body. And I think that that's very problematic. Well, 813 00:51:45,840 --> 00:51:50,440 Speaker 1: at that they showed block him hide of the pocket, 814 00:51:50,520 --> 00:51:53,800 Speaker 1: and you're so right, doctor Dupree, I'm hearing in my 815 00:51:53,880 --> 00:51:57,360 Speaker 1: air Kelly's skin. I'm hearing in my air. They're about 816 00:51:57,440 --> 00:52:01,280 Speaker 1: to start court again, with or without a jury Killie 817 00:52:01,320 --> 00:52:04,000 Speaker 1: Ski and I want to hear more of Jane secondary 818 00:52:04,040 --> 00:52:06,080 Speaker 1: on the stand because she's also did you would say 819 00:52:06,160 --> 00:52:08,759 Speaker 1: the way she would cut her eyes over and look 820 00:52:08,800 --> 00:52:11,360 Speaker 1: at Murdoch when she was talking about all that money 821 00:52:11,360 --> 00:52:14,319 Speaker 1: he stole. She did, and she even gave it back 822 00:52:14,360 --> 00:52:16,360 Speaker 1: to the defense attorney a little bit when he was 823 00:52:16,400 --> 00:52:19,120 Speaker 1: asking her questions. She said, this is money that your 824 00:52:19,239 --> 00:52:21,719 Speaker 1: client stole, and Alec Murdoch is sitting in court with 825 00:52:21,760 --> 00:52:24,719 Speaker 1: the glasses on the tip of his nose staring at her. 826 00:52:24,760 --> 00:52:27,680 Speaker 1: So you can only imagine how that meeting went when 827 00:52:27,760 --> 00:52:30,120 Speaker 1: she confronted him about the funds to begin with. But 828 00:52:30,280 --> 00:52:33,200 Speaker 1: she is she is spot on, she is articulate, She 829 00:52:33,280 --> 00:52:35,480 Speaker 1: does not miss a beat, and even when his defense 830 00:52:35,560 --> 00:52:37,799 Speaker 1: attorney questioned her about, oh, so you did your own 831 00:52:37,840 --> 00:52:40,440 Speaker 1: investigation on this, she said, well, yes I did, but 832 00:52:40,560 --> 00:52:43,640 Speaker 1: so did the FBI. We had a forensic accountant and 833 00:52:44,760 --> 00:52:46,960 Speaker 1: law enforcement has all of this as well. So she 834 00:52:47,719 --> 00:52:52,040 Speaker 1: was not budging. She firmly believes and does the state 835 00:52:52,160 --> 00:52:54,719 Speaker 1: that Alec Murdoch. I could tell you this, all of 836 00:52:54,760 --> 00:52:56,920 Speaker 1: this money mad him not trying to bully this lady 837 00:52:56,960 --> 00:52:59,560 Speaker 1: on the stand, because they will put out an arm 838 00:52:59,640 --> 00:53:04,400 Speaker 1: and put back a nub. I'm just telling you. And also, 839 00:53:04,719 --> 00:53:08,880 Speaker 1: juries do not like it when a lawyer bullies and 840 00:53:09,040 --> 00:53:14,600 Speaker 1: otherwise seemingly nice and straightforward witness on the stand. But 841 00:53:15,000 --> 00:53:17,400 Speaker 1: I'm thinking about the way she would look at him 842 00:53:17,480 --> 00:53:20,640 Speaker 1: in court. Am I wrong? Or did he start crying 843 00:53:20,840 --> 00:53:23,480 Speaker 1: in court again today? You know, I am looking at 844 00:53:23,480 --> 00:53:25,239 Speaker 1: the fact of this head, so I didn't see if 845 00:53:25,280 --> 00:53:27,520 Speaker 1: he was crying in court today. What I did see 846 00:53:27,719 --> 00:53:30,319 Speaker 1: was the death stare in the glasses on the tip 847 00:53:30,400 --> 00:53:33,520 Speaker 1: of his nose. As this witness was speaking. Well, I 848 00:53:33,680 --> 00:53:36,560 Speaker 1: think when they were talking about when she was talking 849 00:53:36,640 --> 00:53:39,200 Speaker 1: about all the money he stole millions and millions of 850 00:53:39,280 --> 00:53:42,680 Speaker 1: dollars from not only the clients, but the so called 851 00:53:42,760 --> 00:53:46,960 Speaker 1: brotherhood of lawyers that built that firm, that made that firm, 852 00:53:47,880 --> 00:53:53,239 Speaker 1: other lawyers who were upstanding lawyers, respected lawyers that look 853 00:53:53,280 --> 00:53:55,320 Speaker 1: out for their clients, And here he was with his 854 00:53:55,520 --> 00:53:58,840 Speaker 1: hands in their pockets. I think he started crying. But 855 00:53:58,960 --> 00:54:01,400 Speaker 1: you know what, HED plenty of time to think about that. 856 00:54:01,600 --> 00:54:06,279 Speaker 1: Every single time he stole another settlement, Kelly, he did, 857 00:54:06,560 --> 00:54:08,560 Speaker 1: he did. He could have thought about the clients that 858 00:54:08,680 --> 00:54:10,680 Speaker 1: this money should have gone to. And we even heard 859 00:54:10,680 --> 00:54:13,960 Speaker 1: today that he allegedly stole a check from his own brother. 860 00:54:14,320 --> 00:54:17,440 Speaker 1: He cashed a check and then a year later cashed 861 00:54:17,480 --> 00:54:19,960 Speaker 1: another check for that same amount of money after asking 862 00:54:20,080 --> 00:54:23,879 Speaker 1: the CFO of his law firm to cut the check 863 00:54:23,960 --> 00:54:26,160 Speaker 1: again because he lost it. So he's not only stealing 864 00:54:26,200 --> 00:54:29,239 Speaker 1: from this brotherhood of lawyers, he's stealing from his allegedly 865 00:54:29,480 --> 00:54:32,000 Speaker 1: from his real brother. And I was watching his brothers 866 00:54:32,040 --> 00:54:33,960 Speaker 1: in court today to see if they had any reaction, 867 00:54:34,040 --> 00:54:37,640 Speaker 1: But they've been pretty stoic today and didn't have much 868 00:54:37,880 --> 00:54:40,759 Speaker 1: reaction as they're talking about these funds being funneled from 869 00:54:40,800 --> 00:54:43,520 Speaker 1: their law firm. Well, they're sitting there right beside Buster 870 00:54:43,560 --> 00:54:46,799 Speaker 1: or who's in court every day with I think his girlfriend, 871 00:54:47,520 --> 00:54:50,160 Speaker 1: So I'm sure they don't want to have any outburst 872 00:54:50,280 --> 00:54:53,640 Speaker 1: in front of Buster or Robert Crispin. When you see 873 00:54:53,760 --> 00:54:56,920 Speaker 1: a guy like murnog, I do, I wonder what in 874 00:54:57,080 --> 00:54:59,640 Speaker 1: the hey were you thinking? Man? You had it all 875 00:55:00,200 --> 00:55:03,800 Speaker 1: and you did this over and over and over. But 876 00:55:04,560 --> 00:55:07,560 Speaker 1: I learned about five years into it. Why asked why, 877 00:55:08,040 --> 00:55:11,200 Speaker 1: why does it matter. What matters is proving the case 878 00:55:12,080 --> 00:55:16,840 Speaker 1: goes to greed, completely goes to greed. Yeah, agreed turning 879 00:55:16,920 --> 00:55:21,120 Speaker 1: into homicide, and god only knows what else. So we 880 00:55:21,239 --> 00:55:23,719 Speaker 1: have no idea of Jane's secondary is going to be 881 00:55:23,800 --> 00:55:26,520 Speaker 1: back on the stand, but we know where the state 882 00:55:26,680 --> 00:55:30,959 Speaker 1: is headed. I'm just waiting for them to somehow show 883 00:55:31,040 --> 00:55:35,400 Speaker 1: the jury that Alex Murdog actually had a change of 884 00:55:35,560 --> 00:55:39,319 Speaker 1: clothing before the murder and after. I wonder if they've 885 00:55:39,360 --> 00:55:42,440 Speaker 1: put that together yet. Okay, I'm hearing in my ear 886 00:55:42,520 --> 00:55:44,799 Speaker 1: the judge is about to take the bench. We are 887 00:55:44,880 --> 00:55:48,719 Speaker 1: going back into the courtroom. Everybody, we are alive at 888 00:55:48,760 --> 00:55:52,479 Speaker 1: the Carlton County Courthouse with the latest goodbye friend,