1 00:00:03,120 --> 00:00:06,000 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind from How Stuff 2 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:14,160 Speaker 1: Works dot com. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. 3 00:00:14,200 --> 00:00:17,720 Speaker 1: My name is Robert Lamb. My name is Julie Douglas. Julie, 4 00:00:17,720 --> 00:00:19,920 Speaker 1: you have an announcement you want to make for everybody. 5 00:00:20,120 --> 00:00:24,080 Speaker 1: It is so hot in Atlanta. It really, oh my gosh, 6 00:00:24,239 --> 00:00:28,520 Speaker 1: nine degrees today. It's brutal. It is brutal. That's yeah, 7 00:00:28,560 --> 00:00:31,360 Speaker 1: that's not really what I was gonna say, though, Well, 8 00:00:31,400 --> 00:00:33,320 Speaker 1: I mean everyone needs to be up on the weather 9 00:00:33,440 --> 00:00:36,640 Speaker 1: that we are experiencing. I know it's a diversionary tactic 10 00:00:36,680 --> 00:00:39,640 Speaker 1: for really, because this is my last episode on Stuff 11 00:00:39,640 --> 00:00:42,519 Speaker 1: to Blow Your Mind, and I am leaving the podcast 12 00:00:42,600 --> 00:00:45,479 Speaker 1: work on a couple of projects for How Stuff Works. 13 00:00:45,560 --> 00:00:48,400 Speaker 1: So I just wanted to let you guys know, not 14 00:00:48,440 --> 00:00:51,840 Speaker 1: going very far, but in the meantime, I am leaving 15 00:00:51,880 --> 00:00:55,120 Speaker 1: you guys in the very capable hands of Christian Seger 16 00:00:55,720 --> 00:00:58,280 Speaker 1: and Joe McCormick, who have been filling in for me 17 00:00:58,360 --> 00:01:00,720 Speaker 1: over the last month, and they have been turning in 18 00:01:00,880 --> 00:01:03,960 Speaker 1: some really fine work. And I'm sure you guys have 19 00:01:04,000 --> 00:01:05,440 Speaker 1: all had a chance to meet them by now. They 20 00:01:05,480 --> 00:01:09,080 Speaker 1: are great guys. So yeah, indeed, for those who have 21 00:01:09,280 --> 00:01:12,080 Speaker 1: been asking, you know, what's what's going on there? You 22 00:01:12,120 --> 00:01:15,200 Speaker 1: have it and again, Julie's uh still very much part 23 00:01:15,240 --> 00:01:17,320 Speaker 1: of the house stuff works team is gonna You're gonna 24 00:01:17,319 --> 00:01:19,840 Speaker 1: see a lot of exciting stuff coming out. And uh 25 00:01:19,840 --> 00:01:22,520 Speaker 1: and indeed, thank you for sharing the journey with me 26 00:01:22,560 --> 00:01:26,039 Speaker 1: thus far and helping to to develop stuff to blow 27 00:01:26,040 --> 00:01:29,119 Speaker 1: your mind as we know it today. Yeah. Thanks thanks 28 00:01:29,120 --> 00:01:31,520 Speaker 1: for making it so much fun. I can't believe that 29 00:01:31,600 --> 00:01:34,840 Speaker 1: it's been three years I think now three and a 30 00:01:34,880 --> 00:01:37,039 Speaker 1: half years or so that we first sat down with 31 00:01:37,080 --> 00:01:39,160 Speaker 1: a spreadsheet and we tried to figure out all these 32 00:01:39,160 --> 00:01:41,840 Speaker 1: different topics that we wanted to cover. Um, so it's 33 00:01:41,880 --> 00:01:45,760 Speaker 1: been an absolute pleasure. And um uh you know, I 34 00:01:45,800 --> 00:01:47,920 Speaker 1: can't say we'll always have Paris, but we will always 35 00:01:47,960 --> 00:01:50,800 Speaker 1: have Cloeca. I mean, if you want. I mean that 36 00:01:50,840 --> 00:01:54,720 Speaker 1: sounds weird, We will always have Cloeka. You will, all right, Uh, 37 00:01:54,880 --> 00:01:57,720 Speaker 1: enough of this stuff here, let's get to the topic 38 00:01:57,800 --> 00:02:03,880 Speaker 1: at hand today. Yes, we're telling talking about Utopia. But 39 00:02:04,240 --> 00:02:08,160 Speaker 1: as as as with any discussion of Utopia, we're gonna 40 00:02:08,160 --> 00:02:11,320 Speaker 1: get into some pretty dark territory, right, I mean, because 41 00:02:11,919 --> 00:02:14,280 Speaker 1: this is just the beauty of this You cannot have 42 00:02:14,440 --> 00:02:17,320 Speaker 1: utopia without dystopia, right, you wouldn't even know what it 43 00:02:17,480 --> 00:02:22,359 Speaker 1: was without the negative side of that coin. And we're 44 00:02:22,400 --> 00:02:25,120 Speaker 1: just gonna take you bits into a time capsule here. 45 00:02:25,160 --> 00:02:28,960 Speaker 1: So just imagine that it's the sixties. You're scientists with 46 00:02:29,080 --> 00:02:33,799 Speaker 1: just cads, a very fine rodents at your disposal, yes, 47 00:02:33,880 --> 00:02:38,440 Speaker 1: top shelf, the best you can kind of rodents, and 48 00:02:38,520 --> 00:02:42,600 Speaker 1: you have this desire to play out the drama of overpopulation. 49 00:02:43,320 --> 00:02:46,520 Speaker 1: In fact, in the Proceedings of the Royal Society of 50 00:02:46,560 --> 00:02:50,480 Speaker 1: Medicine in nineteen seventy three, you describe the outset of 51 00:02:50,520 --> 00:02:55,320 Speaker 1: your quest thusly quote, I shall largely speak of mice, 52 00:02:55,520 --> 00:02:59,520 Speaker 1: but my thoughts are on man, on healing, on life 53 00:02:59,600 --> 00:03:03,840 Speaker 1: and evolution. And then you go on to name check 54 00:03:03,919 --> 00:03:06,560 Speaker 1: the four horsemen of the apocalypse before you get onto 55 00:03:06,560 --> 00:03:13,320 Speaker 1: the details of your overpopulation experiment. You are John B. Calhoun, Yes, 56 00:03:14,200 --> 00:03:19,000 Speaker 1: who's a very very interesting individual. Um born in nineteen 57 00:03:19,040 --> 00:03:24,239 Speaker 1: seventeen died in the American Animal Behaviorist. And he was 58 00:03:24,280 --> 00:03:28,640 Speaker 1: actually born in Tennessee, specifically Elkton, Tennessee, just the next 59 00:03:28,680 --> 00:03:31,639 Speaker 1: county over uh from Lincoln County where I went to 60 00:03:31,960 --> 00:03:34,400 Speaker 1: high school. Uh. He went to high school and Nashville. 61 00:03:34,440 --> 00:03:36,240 Speaker 1: He went on to earn his undergraduate degree at the 62 00:03:36,320 --> 00:03:39,480 Speaker 1: University of Virginia and earned a doctorate in zoology from 63 00:03:39,560 --> 00:03:44,000 Speaker 1: Northwestern University in nineteen forty three, and from there he 64 00:03:44,040 --> 00:03:47,440 Speaker 1: embarked on a forty year career mostly at the National 65 00:03:47,480 --> 00:03:51,200 Speaker 1: Institute of Mental Health or NIM, where he organized the 66 00:03:51,320 --> 00:03:54,960 Speaker 1: Unit for Research on Behavioral Systems at the Laboratory of Brain, 67 00:03:55,000 --> 00:03:59,520 Speaker 1: Evolution and Behavior. Now he's best remembered for work that 68 00:03:59,560 --> 00:04:03,800 Speaker 1: focused on the troubling effects of overpopulation on rats and mice, 69 00:04:03,880 --> 00:04:07,280 Speaker 1: effects that miss might just paint a very bleak picture 70 00:04:07,680 --> 00:04:11,080 Speaker 1: of humanity's future in an overcrowded world, right, and he 71 00:04:11,160 --> 00:04:13,400 Speaker 1: goes on to create something called Universe twenty five, which 72 00:04:13,400 --> 00:04:16,880 Speaker 1: we'll talk about, but at about the same time that 73 00:04:17,120 --> 00:04:20,400 Speaker 1: his paper is published as a paper is called death squared, 74 00:04:20,560 --> 00:04:24,120 Speaker 1: the explosive growth into mind of a mouse population. There's 75 00:04:24,160 --> 00:04:26,880 Speaker 1: a bunch of stuff going on in society. In fact, 76 00:04:26,920 --> 00:04:31,479 Speaker 1: there's a kind of a zite iced about overpopulation playing out. Yeah, 77 00:04:31,520 --> 00:04:33,800 Speaker 1: this is the post war period where everything is just 78 00:04:33,839 --> 00:04:37,839 Speaker 1: getting built up. The populations coming back, people are are 79 00:04:38,000 --> 00:04:42,360 Speaker 1: are booming, technology is booming, the cities are growing, swelling 80 00:04:42,480 --> 00:04:46,400 Speaker 1: even and there are some growing pains associated with that. Yeah, 81 00:04:46,480 --> 00:04:49,320 Speaker 1: And you even have bits of media that are being 82 00:04:49,320 --> 00:04:54,000 Speaker 1: consumed fictional that are reflecting this. For instance, something called 83 00:04:54,080 --> 00:04:57,760 Speaker 1: Soilent Green, which was this movie that depicted a future 84 00:04:57,839 --> 00:05:01,359 Speaker 1: of an overcrowded world where the pulation could only survive 85 00:05:01,440 --> 00:05:05,640 Speaker 1: on soyland Green, a food handout from the government which 86 00:05:05,680 --> 00:05:08,720 Speaker 1: turns out to be made from human corpses. Yes, or 87 00:05:09,480 --> 00:05:12,320 Speaker 1: you know, pretty good supply. That was fueling people's imaginations 88 00:05:12,320 --> 00:05:14,279 Speaker 1: and their fears. Yeah, and a lot of those fears 89 00:05:14,520 --> 00:05:17,680 Speaker 1: were related to resources. Right, there are this many people 90 00:05:17,720 --> 00:05:19,920 Speaker 1: and we keep reading how are we going to feed everybody? 91 00:05:19,960 --> 00:05:21,880 Speaker 1: How are are we going to have enough to maintain? 92 00:05:22,760 --> 00:05:26,000 Speaker 1: So in the meantime, you've got John Calhoun who has 93 00:05:26,120 --> 00:05:30,120 Speaker 1: been working with rodents for a number of years and 94 00:05:30,279 --> 00:05:34,920 Speaker 1: has been preoccupied with this question of overpopulation, and he 95 00:05:34,960 --> 00:05:37,880 Speaker 1: does turn to these rats because they're easy to observe, right, 96 00:05:37,960 --> 00:05:43,240 Speaker 1: They quickly have successive generations, and there are similarities to humans. 97 00:05:43,320 --> 00:05:47,360 Speaker 1: They're they're clever little beings, and they're highly social. Yeah. 98 00:05:47,400 --> 00:05:50,400 Speaker 1: As we discussed in our recent episode on on rats specifically, 99 00:05:50,720 --> 00:05:55,720 Speaker 1: um rodents searches say a very handy reference point for 100 00:05:55,760 --> 00:05:59,280 Speaker 1: any kind of scientific exploration of human psychology or human anatomy. 101 00:06:00,400 --> 00:06:05,120 Speaker 1: So Calhoun, who first becomes obsessed with this idea, creates 102 00:06:05,120 --> 00:06:07,960 Speaker 1: something called rat City on a quarter acre of land 103 00:06:08,279 --> 00:06:13,119 Speaker 1: adjacent to his home in Tows in Maryland in ninety seven, 104 00:06:13,800 --> 00:06:17,800 Speaker 1: and he sees that the population in this pen peaks 105 00:06:17,800 --> 00:06:20,400 Speaker 1: at two hundred and he's kind of confused by it 106 00:06:20,440 --> 00:06:23,159 Speaker 1: because he knows that they could far exceed that, and 107 00:06:23,200 --> 00:06:26,680 Speaker 1: in fact he begins to see the delectarious effects of 108 00:06:26,800 --> 00:06:32,680 Speaker 1: overpopulation at just eighty. So for three decades he at 109 00:06:32,720 --> 00:06:37,760 Speaker 1: the National Institute of Mental Health, he creates iterations of this, 110 00:06:38,160 --> 00:06:41,560 Speaker 1: and in fact, you could say these are twenty four 111 00:06:41,600 --> 00:06:47,200 Speaker 1: iterations of what is now known as universe. Yes, so 112 00:06:47,240 --> 00:06:49,640 Speaker 1: I will I'll describe Universe twenty five for you, and 113 00:06:49,720 --> 00:06:51,880 Speaker 1: this will give you a good idea of the various 114 00:06:51,880 --> 00:06:55,240 Speaker 1: iterations that came before as well. So essentially you're talking 115 00:06:55,240 --> 00:07:00,040 Speaker 1: about a large, industrial looking square tank. Uh, imagine in 116 00:07:00,080 --> 00:07:04,800 Speaker 1: a miniature building designed by hr Gear for some set designs. 117 00:07:04,839 --> 00:07:08,039 Speaker 1: You know, it looks kind of like a medieval fortress too. Yeah, 118 00:07:08,240 --> 00:07:10,400 Speaker 1: it doesn't not Yeah, it doesn't look cozy at all. 119 00:07:10,440 --> 00:07:12,880 Speaker 1: It's it's it's quite intimidating, especially in some of the 120 00:07:12,880 --> 00:07:15,400 Speaker 1: pictures we're looking at that are a little little grainy, 121 00:07:15,440 --> 00:07:18,880 Speaker 1: a little dark, right. Um, the square tank was a 122 00:07:18,960 --> 00:07:21,840 Speaker 1: hundred and one inches square or two point six meter square, 123 00:07:22,200 --> 00:07:25,360 Speaker 1: enclosed by fifty four inch high or one point four 124 00:07:25,360 --> 00:07:28,640 Speaker 1: meter high walls. Now, the first thirty seven inches of 125 00:07:28,720 --> 00:07:31,680 Speaker 1: that that wall, from from bottom towards the top, those 126 00:07:31,720 --> 00:07:34,560 Speaker 1: are designed so that the mice can scale it willy nilly. 127 00:07:34,600 --> 00:07:37,880 Speaker 1: But above this the remaining seventeen inches or bare wall 128 00:07:38,000 --> 00:07:42,000 Speaker 1: that they can't scramble up. Um. So you can think 129 00:07:42,040 --> 00:07:44,520 Speaker 1: of it as a walled city again, but with no 130 00:07:44,720 --> 00:07:47,680 Speaker 1: access to the battlements. I mean, it's essentially more like 131 00:07:47,680 --> 00:07:50,960 Speaker 1: a prison, I guess. Um. In addition, you have sixteen 132 00:07:51,040 --> 00:07:54,239 Speaker 1: vertical mesh tunnels or stairwells that are soldered to each wall. 133 00:07:54,840 --> 00:07:57,880 Speaker 1: Four horizontal corridors lead off of each stairwell, and each 134 00:07:57,920 --> 00:08:01,000 Speaker 1: of these lead to four nesting boxes. And in total, 135 00:08:01,200 --> 00:08:04,119 Speaker 1: we're looking at two hundred and fifty six boxes, each 136 00:08:04,200 --> 00:08:08,040 Speaker 1: sizeable enough for about fifteen rodents to live inside. And 137 00:08:08,080 --> 00:08:10,800 Speaker 1: that's one of the things that Calhoun found out quickly 138 00:08:10,880 --> 00:08:14,720 Speaker 1: when he did this other iterations, is that that the 139 00:08:14,760 --> 00:08:18,400 Speaker 1: mice would typically not go over twelve within each group. 140 00:08:18,520 --> 00:08:21,160 Speaker 1: So he did create an apartment to house up to 141 00:08:21,400 --> 00:08:24,000 Speaker 1: fifteen mice because he knew that was part of their behavior, 142 00:08:24,040 --> 00:08:26,040 Speaker 1: so he did try to mirror some of the things 143 00:08:26,160 --> 00:08:31,920 Speaker 1: that he saw in those uh, those different versions. Now this, uh, 144 00:08:32,200 --> 00:08:36,199 Speaker 1: this universe does uh does have quite a few amenities. 145 00:08:36,720 --> 00:08:40,120 Speaker 1: There is no infinity pool, um, but there's a lot 146 00:08:40,160 --> 00:08:44,400 Speaker 1: of abundant clean food and water and nesting materials which 147 00:08:44,440 --> 00:08:47,920 Speaker 1: would be really important. The universe was cleaned every four 148 00:08:48,080 --> 00:08:50,880 Speaker 1: to eight weeks, and of course there were no predators, 149 00:08:51,320 --> 00:08:53,920 Speaker 1: and the temperature was kept at a steady sixty eight 150 00:08:53,960 --> 00:08:57,240 Speaker 1: degrees fahrenheit. So all in all, if you had to 151 00:08:57,240 --> 00:09:01,560 Speaker 1: create a utopia for rodents, this might be what it 152 00:09:01,559 --> 00:09:05,480 Speaker 1: looks like without really knowing intimately what rodents want. Yeah, 153 00:09:05,640 --> 00:09:10,360 Speaker 1: seemingly it provides the necessary space, the necessary resources to 154 00:09:10,480 --> 00:09:14,240 Speaker 1: both feed yourself and to carry out your basic genetic mission. Right, yes, 155 00:09:14,320 --> 00:09:19,960 Speaker 1: sounds good, right Alright, So moving day arrives. Uh. He 156 00:09:20,080 --> 00:09:23,920 Speaker 1: kicks off with just four breeding pairs of mice uh, 157 00:09:23,920 --> 00:09:25,520 Speaker 1: and they are moved in on day one, and these 158 00:09:25,559 --> 00:09:30,360 Speaker 1: again are disease free, top shelf just elegant mice. So 159 00:09:30,720 --> 00:09:34,640 Speaker 1: eate mice total, and these are the individuals that are 160 00:09:34,640 --> 00:09:37,600 Speaker 1: going to reproduce and populate this little city, this little 161 00:09:37,679 --> 00:09:40,840 Speaker 1: universe with all their furry offspring. And this is ideal. 162 00:09:41,080 --> 00:09:44,239 Speaker 1: As we mentioned, mice or small short generation time accelerated 163 00:09:44,280 --> 00:09:47,280 Speaker 1: lifespan that we can study. One mouse year equals about 164 00:09:47,280 --> 00:09:50,520 Speaker 1: thirty human years. Each mouse lives about two to five years. 165 00:09:50,720 --> 00:09:53,480 Speaker 1: The gestation period and female mice is less than a month, 166 00:09:53,520 --> 00:09:55,760 Speaker 1: and the female mouse has an average litter size of 167 00:09:55,800 --> 00:10:00,880 Speaker 1: about six baby mice and breeding onset is about fifty days. 168 00:10:01,360 --> 00:10:05,440 Speaker 1: So yeah, now imagine these four breeding pair um the 169 00:10:05,480 --> 00:10:08,840 Speaker 1: top shelf, as you say, entering this enclosure, and what 170 00:10:08,880 --> 00:10:11,280 Speaker 1: do they do. Well, if you've ever moved into a 171 00:10:11,280 --> 00:10:14,160 Speaker 1: new house as a little kid, then you know probably 172 00:10:14,200 --> 00:10:17,000 Speaker 1: what this looks like. They would go into that enclosure 173 00:10:17,000 --> 00:10:18,599 Speaker 1: and go into the apartments and they were trying to 174 00:10:18,600 --> 00:10:21,520 Speaker 1: find every single food source and really just get a 175 00:10:21,559 --> 00:10:24,480 Speaker 1: feel for that environment, right, which would make sense. They 176 00:10:24,480 --> 00:10:27,920 Speaker 1: didn't care about breeding or eating mainly at first because 177 00:10:27,920 --> 00:10:29,120 Speaker 1: they just want to get the lay of the land. 178 00:10:29,600 --> 00:10:32,640 Speaker 1: And individual mice were kept track of with color markings 179 00:10:32,640 --> 00:10:37,040 Speaker 1: and therefore, which was true of successive generations as well. Yeah. 180 00:10:37,040 --> 00:10:40,880 Speaker 1: So this first phase is the strive phase. That's the 181 00:10:41,000 --> 00:10:44,480 Speaker 1: term Calhoun used for it. Um first a hundred and 182 00:10:44,520 --> 00:10:46,640 Speaker 1: four days, where the mice are just getting accustomed to 183 00:10:46,640 --> 00:10:51,600 Speaker 1: the new environment. They're establishing their territories, they're creating their nests, 184 00:10:51,640 --> 00:10:55,800 Speaker 1: just moving in business as usual, nothing out of the ordinary. 185 00:10:55,880 --> 00:10:58,560 Speaker 1: It's it's kind of it's kind of like the utopia 186 00:10:58,640 --> 00:11:01,079 Speaker 1: set up in any film, and like having a Utopia 187 00:11:01,200 --> 00:11:03,560 Speaker 1: in your your fiction. It's kind of like bringing a 188 00:11:03,600 --> 00:11:05,439 Speaker 1: cannon on the stage, Right, you bring a cannon on 189 00:11:05,440 --> 00:11:07,920 Speaker 1: the stage, you have to fire it. You introduce Utopia 190 00:11:07,960 --> 00:11:10,960 Speaker 1: into your fiction. That Utopia has to fall into chaos 191 00:11:11,040 --> 00:11:13,200 Speaker 1: and madness. This is the period in which you just 192 00:11:13,200 --> 00:11:16,440 Speaker 1: have Utopia business as usual, with no concerns about the 193 00:11:16,600 --> 00:11:20,000 Speaker 1: resources or predators. Yeah, I'm just imagining the kind of whimsical, 194 00:11:20,080 --> 00:11:24,160 Speaker 1: flowing music that usually accompanies these scenes of utopia. Really, 195 00:11:24,200 --> 00:11:26,760 Speaker 1: any scene that's being set up is like, oh, this 196 00:11:26,840 --> 00:11:30,080 Speaker 1: is wonderful, life is great. And then you hear the 197 00:11:30,160 --> 00:11:34,040 Speaker 1: minor piano key like bearer, and that would be the 198 00:11:34,120 --> 00:11:37,600 Speaker 1: exploit phase kicking in. Now. This phase lasted about two 199 00:11:37,720 --> 00:11:40,680 Speaker 1: hundred and fifty days in the population of the mice 200 00:11:41,120 --> 00:11:45,240 Speaker 1: doubled every sixty days. And even though there was identical 201 00:11:45,440 --> 00:11:49,360 Speaker 1: allotments of food and space throughout universe, twenty five, food 202 00:11:49,440 --> 00:11:52,600 Speaker 1: was being consumed more in certain areas. That's because the 203 00:11:52,640 --> 00:11:56,959 Speaker 1: mice began to associate eating and drinking with being with others, 204 00:11:57,040 --> 00:12:01,320 Speaker 1: and the population started to gravitate towards certain compartments where 205 00:12:01,320 --> 00:12:03,480 Speaker 1: all of the eating took place. And this made some 206 00:12:03,559 --> 00:12:08,319 Speaker 1: apartments and compartments crowded well beyond their capacity, while other 207 00:12:08,480 --> 00:12:13,120 Speaker 1: apartments remained completely empty. And now you can hear those 208 00:12:13,160 --> 00:12:16,200 Speaker 1: other minor chords coming into play, right, Yeah, things are 209 00:12:16,240 --> 00:12:19,400 Speaker 1: starting to seem a little bit, a little bit weird. 210 00:12:19,600 --> 00:12:23,160 Speaker 1: But but then we enter a phase the Calhoun called 211 00:12:23,280 --> 00:12:26,400 Speaker 1: the equilibrium phase, which sounds great, right, things are going 212 00:12:26,440 --> 00:12:31,080 Speaker 1: to even out. Things are, But the equilibrium in question 213 00:12:31,120 --> 00:12:35,240 Speaker 1: here is that the population number, which means that the 214 00:12:35,240 --> 00:12:38,720 Speaker 1: the population is evening out. Uh. And he also referred 215 00:12:38,720 --> 00:12:43,319 Speaker 1: to this as the stagnation phase. Um, why is population 216 00:12:43,360 --> 00:12:46,360 Speaker 1: evening out? Because there's less reproduction going on. There's less 217 00:12:46,360 --> 00:12:49,560 Speaker 1: successful reproduction going on, and there is a lot of 218 00:12:49,720 --> 00:12:52,480 Speaker 1: violence that flares up. And we're gonna get into the 219 00:12:52,559 --> 00:12:55,160 Speaker 1: details of that violence. Uh. Here in a bit but 220 00:12:55,360 --> 00:13:00,160 Speaker 1: essentially you see a divide between the sexes and you 221 00:13:00,240 --> 00:13:03,959 Speaker 1: see some rather graphic displays of violence on both sides. Yeah, 222 00:13:04,040 --> 00:13:08,240 Speaker 1: pretty spectacular displays of it, particularly when you get into 223 00:13:08,280 --> 00:13:11,440 Speaker 1: the next phase, which is the die phase, and the 224 00:13:11,559 --> 00:13:17,640 Speaker 1: population begins to decline at hundred, even though universe could 225 00:13:17,679 --> 00:13:21,800 Speaker 1: accommodate up to three thousand mice, and Calhoun notices that 226 00:13:21,920 --> 00:13:26,080 Speaker 1: animals become a lot less aware of each other, even 227 00:13:26,160 --> 00:13:28,640 Speaker 1: though they're enclosure contact than before, I mean their side 228 00:13:28,640 --> 00:13:31,320 Speaker 1: by side, stacked in with each other. And by day 229 00:13:31,400 --> 00:13:36,560 Speaker 1: five sixty, the population increase plunges next to nothing, and 230 00:13:36,720 --> 00:13:40,079 Speaker 1: a few mice survived passed winning until day six hundred. 231 00:13:40,280 --> 00:13:43,640 Speaker 1: After that, there's a few pregnancies that don't come to 232 00:13:43,679 --> 00:13:48,880 Speaker 1: fruition and there are no surviving young, which seems odd 233 00:13:49,000 --> 00:13:52,400 Speaker 1: because you would think that as the population decreases and 234 00:13:52,640 --> 00:13:56,040 Speaker 1: territories are regained, that there would be some sort of 235 00:13:56,120 --> 00:13:58,640 Speaker 1: stasis enacted, right, Like there would be some sort of 236 00:13:58,640 --> 00:14:01,840 Speaker 1: return to normal activity. He's like mating, Yeah, yeah, I 237 00:14:01,840 --> 00:14:04,880 Speaker 1: mean you'd think that after this equilibrium period where all 238 00:14:04,960 --> 00:14:07,840 Speaker 1: this bad stuff goes on, and you see the birthrate 239 00:14:07,880 --> 00:14:11,640 Speaker 1: plummeting and infant mortality rates reaching in some areas that 240 00:14:12,559 --> 00:14:14,280 Speaker 1: some reason would restore it. So if it's kind of 241 00:14:14,320 --> 00:14:16,160 Speaker 1: like we you know, we see in the various ups 242 00:14:16,160 --> 00:14:18,800 Speaker 1: and downs throughout history, things get bad but then things 243 00:14:18,840 --> 00:14:22,560 Speaker 1: even out, but not so in the universe, right, and 244 00:14:22,640 --> 00:14:26,480 Speaker 1: this becomes something known as the behavioral sink. All Right, 245 00:14:26,480 --> 00:14:28,280 Speaker 1: we're gonna take a quick break, and when we come back, 246 00:14:28,280 --> 00:14:30,800 Speaker 1: we will define behavioral sink. We will talk about the 247 00:14:30,840 --> 00:14:35,040 Speaker 1: details of the violent downfall of universe, and not to 248 00:14:35,040 --> 00:14:48,520 Speaker 1: mention the beautiful ones. All right, we're back. So behavioral 249 00:14:48,560 --> 00:14:52,760 Speaker 1: sink this is Calhoun's name for the point past which 250 00:14:52,800 --> 00:14:57,800 Speaker 1: the slide into breakdown becomes irreversible. Uh referred to it 251 00:14:57,800 --> 00:15:01,200 Speaker 1: as a para pathology of shared business. And I like 252 00:15:01,240 --> 00:15:03,440 Speaker 1: to think of it in terms of of a black hole. Right, 253 00:15:04,000 --> 00:15:08,080 Speaker 1: It's a black hole of pathological behavior. It forms out 254 00:15:08,080 --> 00:15:11,320 Speaker 1: of the collapsing mass of an overpopulated society. It's the 255 00:15:11,640 --> 00:15:14,560 Speaker 1: it's the event horizon. You know that once you you 256 00:15:14,600 --> 00:15:18,480 Speaker 1: pass that event horizon, there's no escaping the mass of 257 00:15:18,520 --> 00:15:20,160 Speaker 1: the black hole. And this is the point of no 258 00:15:20,320 --> 00:15:24,440 Speaker 1: return for civilizational downfall, at least with the rodents, if 259 00:15:24,440 --> 00:15:27,120 Speaker 1: not with humans. Yeah, and John Calhoun called it the 260 00:15:27,160 --> 00:15:30,880 Speaker 1: first death. UM. He said, that's it's sort of akin 261 00:15:30,960 --> 00:15:33,800 Speaker 1: to like the death of the mind in the soul 262 00:15:34,080 --> 00:15:36,920 Speaker 1: of the creature, not really implying that they have a soul, 263 00:15:37,120 --> 00:15:39,360 Speaker 1: but basically saying there are two types of death here. 264 00:15:39,360 --> 00:15:41,960 Speaker 1: There's a body death which eventually happens, but the sort 265 00:15:42,000 --> 00:15:46,520 Speaker 1: of like non striving, not not living for anything, not mating, 266 00:15:46,600 --> 00:15:51,880 Speaker 1: not really caring about your environment. And so you can 267 00:15:51,960 --> 00:15:56,880 Speaker 1: see how this behavioral sank and this um the second 268 00:15:56,960 --> 00:15:59,840 Speaker 1: death and first death, all these terms are being thrown around, 269 00:16:00,000 --> 00:16:01,640 Speaker 1: and you could see how they would have a really 270 00:16:01,680 --> 00:16:07,240 Speaker 1: big impact with people who are cluing in on his paper. Yeah, yeah, 271 00:16:07,280 --> 00:16:11,520 Speaker 1: I mean we're talking about the existential apocalypse u A, 272 00:16:11,640 --> 00:16:16,800 Speaker 1: theeleological apocalypse. So that kind of leads to this whole 273 00:16:16,800 --> 00:16:21,160 Speaker 1: other aspect of Universe twenty five that really came to 274 00:16:21,280 --> 00:16:25,520 Speaker 1: define what happened and why it happened, and that is 275 00:16:26,080 --> 00:16:28,520 Speaker 1: this aggression that came out of it. And this was 276 00:16:28,640 --> 00:16:32,640 Speaker 1: largely because of the overcrowding and certain areas, particularly the 277 00:16:32,720 --> 00:16:37,000 Speaker 1: feeding areas. It meant that the newer generations born into universe, 278 00:16:37,560 --> 00:16:40,680 Speaker 1: the chaotic version, they didn't have the kind of social 279 00:16:40,680 --> 00:16:45,040 Speaker 1: conditioning that would allow them to form bonds. Uh. So, 280 00:16:45,160 --> 00:16:48,840 Speaker 1: in addition, you have the constant stimulation, the screring for 281 00:16:48,880 --> 00:16:52,320 Speaker 1: food and space, and this means that some of the 282 00:16:52,360 --> 00:16:57,760 Speaker 1: rodents became exceedingly aggressive, and this spiraled off into different 283 00:16:57,920 --> 00:17:02,960 Speaker 1: factions of behavior for other rodents. So the reaction to 284 00:17:03,040 --> 00:17:06,159 Speaker 1: that sort of aggression is that you had some rats 285 00:17:06,200 --> 00:17:08,919 Speaker 1: who are excuse me, mice who retreated, and then you 286 00:17:08,960 --> 00:17:11,239 Speaker 1: had those who try to retreat, but then they were 287 00:17:11,280 --> 00:17:13,760 Speaker 1: sought after to actually be attacked over and over again. 288 00:17:14,240 --> 00:17:17,320 Speaker 1: And then those who were attacked a lot then became attackers, 289 00:17:17,880 --> 00:17:21,680 Speaker 1: and then you had what I call the super bullies. Yes, 290 00:17:21,960 --> 00:17:26,880 Speaker 1: the outcast, Yes, the the outcasts. Uh. This and this 291 00:17:26,920 --> 00:17:29,520 Speaker 1: is very much in line with with any any kind 292 00:17:29,520 --> 00:17:32,359 Speaker 1: of like Mad Max post apocalyptic scenario where you have 293 00:17:32,400 --> 00:17:35,520 Speaker 1: these warlords that rise out of the disorder and they're 294 00:17:35,560 --> 00:17:39,040 Speaker 1: they're just the most awful, heinous people possible that just 295 00:17:39,160 --> 00:17:42,879 Speaker 1: ruled by sheer brutality. And that's what we see popping 296 00:17:42,960 --> 00:17:46,360 Speaker 1: up in the universe five. After about day three fifteen, 297 00:17:46,880 --> 00:17:50,320 Speaker 1: male mice without social roles stop trying to defend territory, 298 00:17:50,480 --> 00:17:53,240 Speaker 1: or they stopped trying to breed. Instead, they just end 299 00:17:53,320 --> 00:17:56,280 Speaker 1: up wandering congregating in the middle of the universe with 300 00:17:56,280 --> 00:17:59,880 Speaker 1: other loaners. And it's here that you see particularly dominant, 301 00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:04,359 Speaker 1: paricularly aggressive males rising to the top through just sheer 302 00:18:04,400 --> 00:18:09,920 Speaker 1: brutality attacking their fellow mice. Uh, just roaming around, assaulting, 303 00:18:10,320 --> 00:18:15,040 Speaker 1: raping other members of the universe and asserting their dominance. Yeah. 304 00:18:15,080 --> 00:18:17,360 Speaker 1: And I love this mad Max analogy that you make 305 00:18:17,400 --> 00:18:22,040 Speaker 1: because it really helps you to understand why the breeding stopped, 306 00:18:22,440 --> 00:18:26,840 Speaker 1: because within this environment, you don't have a couples saying, oh, 307 00:18:26,960 --> 00:18:30,399 Speaker 1: let's mate, let's do this, let's let's um, let's really 308 00:18:30,440 --> 00:18:34,760 Speaker 1: spend an ordent amount of time caring for young. You 309 00:18:34,800 --> 00:18:38,080 Speaker 1: don't have those kind of resources available if you're worried 310 00:18:38,119 --> 00:18:41,040 Speaker 1: that you can't survive. Right. So that's what you're seeing 311 00:18:41,119 --> 00:18:44,879 Speaker 1: in terms of the kind of reaction or fallout from 312 00:18:45,280 --> 00:18:50,240 Speaker 1: from the outcasts as Calhoun talks about them. But you're 313 00:18:50,320 --> 00:18:57,320 Speaker 1: also seeing another subset emerged from this, and the die 314 00:18:57,400 --> 00:19:01,360 Speaker 1: phase sees this new subset at a new generation of 315 00:19:01,400 --> 00:19:04,200 Speaker 1: mice emerge that had never been subjected again to any 316 00:19:04,200 --> 00:19:08,440 Speaker 1: sort of normal conditioning, and they showed absolutely no interest 317 00:19:08,680 --> 00:19:13,240 Speaker 1: in fighting, courtship, mating, raising young, or really anything that 318 00:19:13,280 --> 00:19:15,880 Speaker 1: had to do with one another. Um, they did all 319 00:19:15,960 --> 00:19:19,840 Speaker 1: group together, and one of the things that they did 320 00:19:20,040 --> 00:19:26,280 Speaker 1: the most was groom, So they were constantly preening themselves 321 00:19:26,440 --> 00:19:30,479 Speaker 1: and eating. Just just imagine these sort of you know, 322 00:19:30,960 --> 00:19:35,440 Speaker 1: fat mice with these beautiful coats, and as Kyle Hun describes, 323 00:19:35,480 --> 00:19:40,359 Speaker 1: some alert eyes in their ivory towers, the chaos and 324 00:19:40,800 --> 00:19:45,439 Speaker 1: apocalyptic warfare going on. Yes, that's that's beautifully described. That 325 00:19:45,680 --> 00:19:50,919 Speaker 1: is what he termed the beautiful ones who occupied this 326 00:19:51,000 --> 00:19:55,560 Speaker 1: ivory tower of space. And while they were together, none 327 00:19:55,560 --> 00:19:58,520 Speaker 1: of them would actually interact with one another. And of 328 00:19:58,520 --> 00:20:01,400 Speaker 1: course they had no interest in MA And so Calhoun 329 00:20:01,440 --> 00:20:04,359 Speaker 1: and the researchers thought, well, what if we were removed 330 00:20:04,359 --> 00:20:07,080 Speaker 1: them from universe and we put them in an enclosure 331 00:20:07,119 --> 00:20:09,399 Speaker 1: that has all of the benefits of universe twenty five. 332 00:20:09,440 --> 00:20:11,720 Speaker 1: In other words, um, you know, all the food that 333 00:20:11,760 --> 00:20:15,840 Speaker 1: they wanted, Um, you know, cages that were cleaned, so 334 00:20:15,920 --> 00:20:19,520 Speaker 1: on and so forth. They would probably return to normal, Right, 335 00:20:19,680 --> 00:20:24,120 Speaker 1: that was the idea with these alert eyed mice. They 336 00:20:24,160 --> 00:20:27,679 Speaker 1: did that, and of course the beautiful ones just continued 337 00:20:27,800 --> 00:20:31,080 Speaker 1: to groom themselves and eat and had absolutely no interest. 338 00:20:31,520 --> 00:20:34,399 Speaker 1: And that was very surprising for the researchers, and it 339 00:20:34,480 --> 00:20:37,879 Speaker 1: further underscored that there was a kind of behavioral sink 340 00:20:38,640 --> 00:20:41,679 Speaker 1: that happened. Is that that first death right. So they 341 00:20:41,680 --> 00:20:46,280 Speaker 1: were already just existentially dead inside, right, It didn't matter 342 00:20:46,400 --> 00:20:49,920 Speaker 1: that they had changed geography. They were who they were now. 343 00:20:50,040 --> 00:20:52,800 Speaker 1: And so of course all of this taken together, you 344 00:20:52,840 --> 00:20:56,720 Speaker 1: can see how the public would take the details of 345 00:20:56,800 --> 00:21:00,040 Speaker 1: this is sort of like pan sexualism, this cannibal of 346 00:21:00,119 --> 00:21:04,800 Speaker 1: him that it would occur, um this extreme violence, and 347 00:21:04,840 --> 00:21:07,760 Speaker 1: then began to try to make these apples to apples 348 00:21:07,800 --> 00:21:10,920 Speaker 1: comparisons with human populations. Yeah, I mean, well, we we 349 00:21:10,960 --> 00:21:13,240 Speaker 1: couldn't help. Even as we were going over notes before 350 00:21:13,240 --> 00:21:17,720 Speaker 1: the episode, I've mentioned that I couldn't help, but think 351 00:21:17,760 --> 00:21:21,119 Speaker 1: of wells, the time machine and the more Locks, the 352 00:21:21,240 --> 00:21:24,480 Speaker 1: horrible Morelocks had had lived underground and in the beautiful 353 00:21:24,560 --> 00:21:26,920 Speaker 1: surface dwellers who just kind of wandered around and it 354 00:21:27,040 --> 00:21:29,160 Speaker 1: drugged out haze on the surface. And then of course 355 00:21:29,160 --> 00:21:34,640 Speaker 1: you brought up Kardashians. I did, I said, Unfortunately, when 356 00:21:34,760 --> 00:21:36,720 Speaker 1: when I read about the beautiful ones, I thought, oh, 357 00:21:36,760 --> 00:21:41,639 Speaker 1: there's the Kardashians. I get it, with their beautifully quaffed hair. Um, 358 00:21:41,960 --> 00:21:44,399 Speaker 1: maybe you took them out of their environment and you 359 00:21:44,440 --> 00:21:47,719 Speaker 1: put them on a desert island. What would happen? They 360 00:21:47,760 --> 00:21:50,480 Speaker 1: would continue to groom themselves. I'm pretty sure of it. 361 00:21:50,880 --> 00:21:54,320 Speaker 1: Perhaps that's an unfair assessment however, Um, But one of 362 00:21:54,359 --> 00:21:57,760 Speaker 1: the things that I think is really striking about this experiment, 363 00:21:57,960 --> 00:21:59,960 Speaker 1: and we kind of touched on it at the beginning, 364 00:22:00,320 --> 00:22:03,720 Speaker 1: is the way that Calhoun paints the picture for his 365 00:22:03,840 --> 00:22:08,280 Speaker 1: reading audience. Yeah. So often with scientific papers and studies, 366 00:22:08,600 --> 00:22:11,359 Speaker 1: you uh, and anyone who's ever read through one of 367 00:22:11,359 --> 00:22:14,040 Speaker 1: these can can certainly certainly know what I'm talking about, 368 00:22:14,359 --> 00:22:17,320 Speaker 1: is that, you know, oftentimes everything is very clinical and straightforward, 369 00:22:17,359 --> 00:22:19,600 Speaker 1: and it's not un till the the conclusions at the 370 00:22:19,720 --> 00:22:23,000 Speaker 1: end and the or maybe the suggestions where they start 371 00:22:23,080 --> 00:22:26,879 Speaker 1: making comparisons to humans and start looking into the future 372 00:22:26,960 --> 00:22:30,359 Speaker 1: for for our own development and in our own progress. 373 00:22:30,400 --> 00:22:33,000 Speaker 1: But with with Calhoun's work, it's there from from the 374 00:22:33,040 --> 00:22:36,440 Speaker 1: get go. It's in the very fabric of the paper. Uh, 375 00:22:36,440 --> 00:22:38,240 Speaker 1: He's just right off the bat. He's referring to the 376 00:22:38,320 --> 00:22:42,280 Speaker 1: dwelling places as tower blocks and walk up apartments. Easy again, 377 00:22:42,320 --> 00:22:44,480 Speaker 1: he's talking about the beautiful ones, the juvenile to link 378 00:22:44,560 --> 00:22:49,840 Speaker 1: what's the dropout? So everything's very just heavily anthropomorphic. Um 379 00:22:50,520 --> 00:22:53,240 Speaker 1: and uh. And it's in all this language meshes perfectly 380 00:22:53,320 --> 00:22:55,800 Speaker 1: as we discussed with the cultural fears that are out 381 00:22:55,840 --> 00:22:58,080 Speaker 1: there in the six season and the seventies to follow, 382 00:22:58,320 --> 00:23:02,800 Speaker 1: you know, full of fictionalman propolises and degenerate societies, the 383 00:23:02,840 --> 00:23:07,800 Speaker 1: world of solid green, of clockwork, orange, um taxi driver 384 00:23:07,960 --> 00:23:09,960 Speaker 1: air in New York City, you know where we just 385 00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:14,320 Speaker 1: see the modern city is just this. Ah, this is 386 00:23:14,440 --> 00:23:18,720 Speaker 1: uh the sewer of of of the link win activity. Yeah. 387 00:23:18,760 --> 00:23:20,560 Speaker 1: And you have a lot of authors at that time 388 00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:24,320 Speaker 1: who are specifically looking at New York City and looking down, 389 00:23:24,440 --> 00:23:27,439 Speaker 1: you know, from the heights of their building from you know, 390 00:23:27,480 --> 00:23:32,240 Speaker 1: the people below and um, and describing them like rats. 391 00:23:32,840 --> 00:23:37,560 Speaker 1: Right Like there's that's not a coincidence. A lot of um, 392 00:23:37,800 --> 00:23:41,119 Speaker 1: what Calhoun is looking at is starting to really steep 393 00:23:41,160 --> 00:23:46,920 Speaker 1: out into popular culture. Now. Post Calhoun, of course, people 394 00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:48,800 Speaker 1: kind of sort of straighten themselves up a little bit 395 00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:53,040 Speaker 1: and look at it a little bit more dispassionately, and 396 00:23:53,080 --> 00:23:55,480 Speaker 1: they began to say, Okay, this is not an apple 397 00:23:55,520 --> 00:23:58,280 Speaker 1: to apple situation. Um, you can't say that the humans 398 00:23:58,560 --> 00:24:01,919 Speaker 1: in New York City are rats in the enclosure of universe, 399 00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:05,960 Speaker 1: because first of all, humans have agency, meaning that we don't, 400 00:24:06,440 --> 00:24:08,760 Speaker 1: as far as we know, have this giant hand who 401 00:24:08,880 --> 00:24:12,520 Speaker 1: is like picking us up and putting us into places 402 00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:16,119 Speaker 1: and feeding us and giving this us an endless supply 403 00:24:16,280 --> 00:24:19,600 Speaker 1: of resources, which is of course the second problem of 404 00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:23,960 Speaker 1: this experiment. This is um about a utopia with everything 405 00:24:24,000 --> 00:24:27,639 Speaker 1: that you would need, whereas in human life we do 406 00:24:27,680 --> 00:24:31,280 Speaker 1: not have the resources always at our disposal. We have 407 00:24:31,400 --> 00:24:38,080 Speaker 1: to strive for them. Uh. Moreover, you have psychologist Jonathan 408 00:24:38,119 --> 00:24:42,760 Speaker 1: Friedman who tries to create as as well as he 409 00:24:42,800 --> 00:24:46,600 Speaker 1: can universe humans, but within the limits of law, of course, 410 00:24:46,920 --> 00:24:49,800 Speaker 1: and having some sort of integrity. He tries to recreate 411 00:24:49,880 --> 00:24:54,040 Speaker 1: this among high school and university students, and he finds 412 00:24:54,119 --> 00:24:57,920 Speaker 1: that the population density is not creating this sort of 413 00:24:58,080 --> 00:25:01,520 Speaker 1: aggression that you would expect, and he does a series 414 00:25:01,560 --> 00:25:07,560 Speaker 1: of these experiments. He measures their stress, their discomfort, aggression, competitiveness, 415 00:25:07,600 --> 00:25:12,200 Speaker 1: and just their general unpleasantness, and he finds that individuals 416 00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:16,840 Speaker 1: employed to carry out tasks under varying conditions of density, 417 00:25:16,880 --> 00:25:21,000 Speaker 1: they display very few pathologies. So it's not this kind 418 00:25:21,040 --> 00:25:25,280 Speaker 1: of situation that yields a clue that, oh, yes, humans, 419 00:25:25,760 --> 00:25:30,040 Speaker 1: humans could uh. Befall the same sort of tragedies if 420 00:25:30,160 --> 00:25:35,000 Speaker 1: overpopulation happens in earnest. Yeah. Freeman ends up suggesting that 421 00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:38,000 Speaker 1: the moral decay that you see in the universe twenty 422 00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:41,920 Speaker 1: five wasn't the result of population density itself, but more 423 00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:46,920 Speaker 1: about excessive social interaction, because they hadn't all gone crazy, 424 00:25:46,960 --> 00:25:50,680 Speaker 1: they didn't all turn into uh, you know, insane warlords. 425 00:25:50,800 --> 00:25:53,359 Speaker 1: Are the ones who managed to control their own space 426 00:25:53,760 --> 00:25:58,600 Speaker 1: actually led normal rodent lives, uh, you know, amid the madness. 427 00:25:58,640 --> 00:26:01,159 Speaker 1: So it's all about the the balance, right though, the 428 00:26:02,240 --> 00:26:07,320 Speaker 1: appropriate levels of privacy and community, um, but unwanted and 429 00:26:07,480 --> 00:26:12,280 Speaker 1: unavoidable social interaction that's what Friedman believes lead to all 430 00:26:12,520 --> 00:26:17,199 Speaker 1: the horror. Yeah. And there's also something called contra freeloading 431 00:26:17,200 --> 00:26:20,240 Speaker 1: which we should consider within the whole context of this. Now, 432 00:26:20,240 --> 00:26:23,400 Speaker 1: this is from Dan Ariali, who is a behavioral economist, 433 00:26:23,560 --> 00:26:26,479 Speaker 1: and he said that it is a tendency for animals 434 00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:29,600 Speaker 1: to prefer earned food rather than free food. So this 435 00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:33,520 Speaker 1: is again part of that resources question. And for instance, 436 00:26:33,880 --> 00:26:37,879 Speaker 1: a really's parrot was described as having a propensity to 437 00:26:37,960 --> 00:26:41,000 Speaker 1: self mutilate if it was just kept in a cage 438 00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:43,560 Speaker 1: and fed without keeping its mind engaged. So that's why 439 00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:44,960 Speaker 1: when you go to a zoo and you see a 440 00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:49,080 Speaker 1: polar bear eating fish, that polar bear actually had to 441 00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:52,120 Speaker 1: make its way through a block of ice in order 442 00:26:52,160 --> 00:26:54,000 Speaker 1: to get to the fish. There was some sort of 443 00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:57,679 Speaker 1: challenge for obstacle there. Yeah. I mean the organism has 444 00:26:57,760 --> 00:27:00,800 Speaker 1: evolved with a purpose and a design line, and if 445 00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:04,479 Speaker 1: you just give it the resources that its whole system 446 00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:08,040 Speaker 1: is game to achieve naturally and with a struggle, Uh, 447 00:27:08,240 --> 00:27:10,800 Speaker 1: there's going to be a disconnect. Yeah, And now to 448 00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:14,439 Speaker 1: go back to your point though about how um within 449 00:27:14,560 --> 00:27:18,120 Speaker 1: the Universe twenty community there were some mice there were 450 00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:23,879 Speaker 1: actually fearing. Okay, this is something that is underplayed, right 451 00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:25,800 Speaker 1: because you hear about all the terrible things going on, 452 00:27:25,880 --> 00:27:27,840 Speaker 1: but you don't hear a lot about the actual I 453 00:27:27,880 --> 00:27:30,680 Speaker 1: guess you could call it creativity and innovation that was happening, 454 00:27:30,920 --> 00:27:33,520 Speaker 1: which is kind of kind of crazy because you know, 455 00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:37,600 Speaker 1: we love the idea of an apocalypse and clearly everyone 456 00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:40,600 Speaker 1: absorbing this study like it's easy to just focus on 457 00:27:40,720 --> 00:27:43,000 Speaker 1: the doom aspect of it. But you look at any 458 00:27:43,119 --> 00:27:46,480 Speaker 1: bit of post apocalyptic media, be the you know, the 459 00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:49,359 Speaker 1: Walking Dead or Mad Max, like the heroes are the 460 00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:53,679 Speaker 1: individuals that more or less are able to thrive in 461 00:27:53,720 --> 00:27:57,640 Speaker 1: this environment, you know. Yeah, and I think that speaks 462 00:27:57,680 --> 00:27:59,719 Speaker 1: to us because we want to learn how to do 463 00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:02,120 Speaker 1: this thing right, right, Like that's why it's so compelling, 464 00:28:02,119 --> 00:28:04,679 Speaker 1: because like, how are you surviving? What sort of grit 465 00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:08,600 Speaker 1: do you have? What sort of creativity? Yeah? So, of 466 00:28:08,640 --> 00:28:12,400 Speaker 1: Calhoun found that animals that were better able to handle 467 00:28:12,840 --> 00:28:15,439 Speaker 1: high numbers of social interactions, which is key because we 468 00:28:15,480 --> 00:28:18,680 Speaker 1: just discussed like that it's about all that unwanted social interaction. 469 00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:21,639 Speaker 1: He found that the rodents who could handle all of 470 00:28:21,680 --> 00:28:25,720 Speaker 1: that unwanted social interaction UM, actually did pretty well. And 471 00:28:25,760 --> 00:28:29,439 Speaker 1: he dubbed them high social velocity mice, which I like 472 00:28:29,520 --> 00:28:32,440 Speaker 1: to think of as the you know, the real extroverts 473 00:28:32,440 --> 00:28:34,760 Speaker 1: of the of the mouse population, you know, the kind 474 00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:36,960 Speaker 1: of the kind of mouse who goes home in the 475 00:28:37,040 --> 00:28:39,360 Speaker 1: evening and then really has to get back out there 476 00:28:39,360 --> 00:28:42,800 Speaker 1: and socialize at the like the nearest pub or or 477 00:28:42,880 --> 00:28:47,480 Speaker 1: hang out right in conversation. UM. And I think about 478 00:28:47,520 --> 00:28:50,000 Speaker 1: this in the context of how stuff works, like, if 479 00:28:50,040 --> 00:28:53,840 Speaker 1: we were all mice high velocity mice, UM, Holly Fry 480 00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:56,600 Speaker 1: would be our leader. Yes, she is definitely a high 481 00:28:56,680 --> 00:28:59,840 Speaker 1: velocity mouse that. Yeah, she would survive, right, Um, and 482 00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:02,400 Speaker 1: and she would still manage to sew something or have 483 00:29:02,520 --> 00:29:05,040 Speaker 1: some sort of project that she's working on the side. Yeah, 484 00:29:05,120 --> 00:29:07,160 Speaker 1: I mean, as long as she can stay away from 485 00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:10,720 Speaker 1: the warlord Ben Bolan and his roving band. Well that 486 00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:13,640 Speaker 1: is true today, Like, that's not hypothetical when you say that, 487 00:29:14,360 --> 00:29:16,840 Speaker 1: we're actually talking about that right now. Yeah, he needs 488 00:29:16,840 --> 00:29:20,640 Speaker 1: to stop wearing those skull shoulder pads around. Those are intimidating. Well. 489 00:29:20,680 --> 00:29:23,800 Speaker 1: And also I think that eventually they're going to lose 490 00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:26,840 Speaker 1: some of their impact, right, especially when he keeps putting 491 00:29:26,840 --> 00:29:30,560 Speaker 1: his googly eyes on them. Um. Here's the thing about 492 00:29:30,600 --> 00:29:35,840 Speaker 1: Calhoun and his paper Death Squared. He was really dismayed 493 00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:38,840 Speaker 1: at the direction that all of this took, that his 494 00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:43,320 Speaker 1: findings took, because he might have been a little bit 495 00:29:43,360 --> 00:29:46,680 Speaker 1: immune to all of his findings and that three decades 496 00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:48,680 Speaker 1: he'd been doing this right like that, the violence and 497 00:29:48,680 --> 00:29:51,240 Speaker 1: this so one and so forth. He was more concerned 498 00:29:51,280 --> 00:29:55,040 Speaker 1: with the actual creativity and innovation, and he thought he 499 00:29:55,080 --> 00:29:59,480 Speaker 1: thought Universe was like this really good model or could 500 00:29:59,520 --> 00:30:02,760 Speaker 1: potentially be a good model of how cities could actually 501 00:30:02,800 --> 00:30:07,840 Speaker 1: become competent and creative and avoid this kind of violence 502 00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:10,480 Speaker 1: and aggression, and he actually went on to make one 503 00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:14,800 Speaker 1: hundred more versions of Universe twenty five to try to 504 00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:18,120 Speaker 1: take all those negatives and turn them into positives and 505 00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:21,720 Speaker 1: have the rodents work in a way that was creative 506 00:30:21,760 --> 00:30:24,080 Speaker 1: and innovative. Yeah. I mean, he wasn't just saying, Hey, 507 00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:26,520 Speaker 1: the apocalypse is coming, let's market on our calendars. He 508 00:30:26,720 --> 00:30:29,440 Speaker 1: was he was ultimately all about, let's let's figure out 509 00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:32,320 Speaker 1: how to reschedule the apocalypse or just postponent and definitely 510 00:30:32,360 --> 00:30:37,680 Speaker 1: find ways to correct course and actually live effectively in 511 00:30:37,720 --> 00:30:43,320 Speaker 1: these large, high population, high population density environments. Um. One 512 00:30:43,400 --> 00:30:48,280 Speaker 1: of the other positive things that came out of Universe inadvertently, 513 00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:51,800 Speaker 1: I guess you could say, is Mrs Frisbee in The 514 00:30:51,880 --> 00:30:54,800 Speaker 1: Rats of NIM. Oh Yes, yeah, children's book that later 515 00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:59,720 Speaker 1: became the Secret of NIM the nine two film, and NIM, 516 00:30:59,760 --> 00:31:02,800 Speaker 1: of course, is the acronym for National Institute of Mental Health, 517 00:31:03,440 --> 00:31:05,440 Speaker 1: and the plotline of the story, at least one of 518 00:31:05,440 --> 00:31:09,440 Speaker 1: the plotlines, is that they're see super intelligent rats that 519 00:31:09,720 --> 00:31:14,960 Speaker 1: escape from NIM. Yeah. I never read the book, but 520 00:31:15,040 --> 00:31:18,080 Speaker 1: I fondly remember the film. Seen the film many times 521 00:31:18,120 --> 00:31:21,560 Speaker 1: as a child. It's a beautifully darkly animated Don Blue 522 00:31:21,680 --> 00:31:25,400 Speaker 1: film with a whole host of various voice actors that 523 00:31:25,560 --> 00:31:27,520 Speaker 1: really bring it to life. I will say to you, 524 00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:30,520 Speaker 1: the scariest and most intense part is, of course in 525 00:31:30,560 --> 00:31:35,160 Speaker 1: the lab when you see the rodents being preyed upon. 526 00:31:35,960 --> 00:31:38,720 Speaker 1: I say preyed upon because you know it's depicted in 527 00:31:38,720 --> 00:31:40,640 Speaker 1: that way, and of course you've got these syringes that 528 00:31:40,640 --> 00:31:43,800 Speaker 1: they're being injected with. Uh. And it is kind of dark, 529 00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:47,240 Speaker 1: but it's a it's a lovely film, yeah, And in 530 00:31:47,280 --> 00:31:49,920 Speaker 1: a way it really harkens back to the source study, right. 531 00:31:49,960 --> 00:31:51,920 Speaker 1: I mean, there's a lot of darkness in it, but 532 00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:55,120 Speaker 1: ultimately his aim was to say, hey, how can we 533 00:31:55,240 --> 00:31:57,680 Speaker 1: how can we grow around this? How can we how 534 00:31:57,800 --> 00:32:03,480 Speaker 1: can we achieve where the where the rodents of universe failed? Right? 535 00:32:03,560 --> 00:32:06,440 Speaker 1: Maybe we don't have to be super intelligent rats that 536 00:32:06,480 --> 00:32:10,320 Speaker 1: have to escape them, but maybe we could approach the 537 00:32:10,360 --> 00:32:13,120 Speaker 1: way that we design our environments in a way that 538 00:32:13,320 --> 00:32:17,720 Speaker 1: actually helps us to interact better and to deal with 539 00:32:18,720 --> 00:32:21,880 Speaker 1: what are actually some real consequences of overpopulation. Now we're 540 00:32:21,880 --> 00:32:24,400 Speaker 1: not trying to discount out at all. Um. I did 541 00:32:24,480 --> 00:32:27,560 Speaker 1: have to say, though, I think that this topic, like 542 00:32:27,640 --> 00:32:32,600 Speaker 1: all others, all roads lead to singularity, to the singularity. 543 00:32:32,720 --> 00:32:36,400 Speaker 1: Because we've talked about this before, there's this idea that 544 00:32:36,480 --> 00:32:42,160 Speaker 1: the future will be so automated that well will maybe 545 00:32:42,240 --> 00:32:44,800 Speaker 1: create our own sort of universe twenty five where it's 546 00:32:44,840 --> 00:32:48,880 Speaker 1: always sixty eight degrees fahrenheit and there's always food available 547 00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:52,640 Speaker 1: and you know, everything is being done for us well. 548 00:32:52,680 --> 00:32:54,920 Speaker 1: And in that I think the hope is that our 549 00:32:55,600 --> 00:32:58,760 Speaker 1: AI masters will will have to figure out ways to 550 00:32:58,880 --> 00:33:01,720 Speaker 1: make sure everything remains arresting for us. And hey, maybe 551 00:33:01,760 --> 00:33:04,840 Speaker 1: they already have. Maybe we're already living in a simulation right, 552 00:33:05,160 --> 00:33:07,200 Speaker 1: all of the matrix. Yeah, and this is all just 553 00:33:07,280 --> 00:33:09,640 Speaker 1: all the struggles in our life are just there because 554 00:33:09,680 --> 00:33:13,200 Speaker 1: our computer overlord said they're not really handling this utopia 555 00:33:13,280 --> 00:33:15,840 Speaker 1: thing all that. Well, make them think that this is 556 00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:18,880 Speaker 1: uh five hundred a thousand years ago, and then they 557 00:33:19,040 --> 00:33:21,000 Speaker 1: they they'll have a decent struggle. You know, the next 558 00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:22,880 Speaker 1: time I miss a deadline, I'm going to use that. 559 00:33:23,200 --> 00:33:25,560 Speaker 1: I'm gonna say, you know, we're inside of the matrix 560 00:33:25,640 --> 00:33:28,040 Speaker 1: right now, it's just one of the obstacles to keep 561 00:33:28,040 --> 00:33:31,360 Speaker 1: it interesting. I think it should be a vout excuse, right, 562 00:33:31,360 --> 00:33:33,920 Speaker 1: this is my ice block guys, thanks for let me 563 00:33:34,000 --> 00:33:36,480 Speaker 1: hang out in your ear holes for the last couple 564 00:33:36,480 --> 00:33:38,800 Speaker 1: of years. I've really enjoyed it and I've loved hearing 565 00:33:38,840 --> 00:33:42,640 Speaker 1: from you. Guys. We've said this before, but your feedback 566 00:33:43,040 --> 00:33:46,360 Speaker 1: and just your thoughts on you know, an array of 567 00:33:46,440 --> 00:33:48,840 Speaker 1: topics have really helped to define what Stuff to Plow 568 00:33:48,880 --> 00:33:52,960 Speaker 1: your Mind is, so we appreciate it. Uh. I'll see 569 00:33:53,000 --> 00:33:55,040 Speaker 1: you on the flip side. In the meantime, you can 570 00:33:55,120 --> 00:33:58,320 Speaker 1: visit us a couple different places, right Stuff to Blow 571 00:33:58,360 --> 00:34:01,160 Speaker 1: your Mind dot com. We're on Facebook, We're on Twitter, 572 00:34:01,760 --> 00:34:04,400 Speaker 1: We're on Tumbler. Check out all those places and you 573 00:34:04,440 --> 00:34:07,760 Speaker 1: will find our content, our blogs, our videos or podcasts. UH, 574 00:34:07,800 --> 00:34:10,920 Speaker 1: and you know, our thoughts on all sorts of breaking 575 00:34:11,000 --> 00:34:14,279 Speaker 1: science news, et cetera. 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