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Speaker 1: Whether you're streaming, gaming, video chatting, or doing it all

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Speaker 1: at once. Gig speed internet from Actinity makes you a

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Speaker 1: multitasking champion. That's simple, easy, awesome, Go online Calley or

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Speaker 1: visit today restrict and supply. Why is the White House

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Speaker 1: reading Greek history? That's the question that was asked earlier

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Speaker 1: in the week in Politico. The real question is why

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Speaker 1: are the top advisors of the Trump administration UH sitting

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Speaker 1: around thinking about and discussing an ancient Greek historian named

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Speaker 1: Thucydites who wrote a seminal work about the Peloponnesian War.

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Speaker 1: Now this is not new that this historical work, which

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Speaker 1: is one of the most important tracts of military history

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Speaker 1: ever written. UH. It is taught frequently in international relations programs.

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Speaker 1: UH it is a sign and reading at the US

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Speaker 1: Army War College. Thucydides is one of those voices from

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Speaker 1: the past that has often brought forward to elucidate the

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Speaker 1: challenges of the present. And as you know, I am

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Speaker 1: fond of ancient Greek history and wish I could even

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Speaker 1: spend much more time both reading and studying it and

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Speaker 1: then sharing with you on the show. Then I'm able

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Speaker 1: to at this point. But maybe one day in the

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Speaker 1: future there will be more fulsome deep dives on the subject.

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Speaker 1: But the White House right now is concerned with the

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Speaker 1: Peloponnesian War, and I wanted to give you some background

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Speaker 1: on it and then talk about what the lessons are

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Speaker 1: that they may be trying to draw from it, or

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Speaker 1: at least looking at the challenges and understanding UH the

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Speaker 1: historical impulses that pushed the leadership in UH fifth century

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Speaker 1: BC Greece, ancient Greece to make decisions that I think

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Speaker 1: a lot of people today would see and draw parallels

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Speaker 1: to any number of US conflicts in the recent past,

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Speaker 1: and just the realities of warfare. So the Peloponnesian War

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Speaker 1: is not as well known as say the War against

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Speaker 1: and outside of academic and military circles, as say the

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Speaker 1: War against Persian invaders. Because of movies like three hundred

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Speaker 1: and King Leonidas and the three hundred Spartans at the

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Speaker 1: Hot Gates the Pass of Thermopoli, there are some pop

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Speaker 1: culture references to other ancient Greek conflicts. The movie with

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Speaker 1: Alexander the Great, which, as I understand it, and Colin

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Speaker 1: Farrell starring as Alexander, was not particularly good um, but

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Speaker 1: you haven't seen a major theatrical production of the Peloponnesian War,

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Speaker 1: and I think that it would actually be a phenomenal

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Speaker 1: subject for such for such a Hollywood treatment, because if

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Speaker 1: you made this into a mini series, people would see

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Speaker 1: the very clear parallels to many of the problems we

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Speaker 1: face today and their problems that are timeless. Really you've

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Speaker 1: faced them all throughout history in matters of war and

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Speaker 1: politics and the realities there in. So the Peloponnese In

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Speaker 1: War is as I said, fifth century Athens, and it

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Speaker 1: stretches on for twenty seven years, from four thirty one

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Speaker 1: to four oh four BC, So this is cross generational.

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Speaker 1: It goes on for decades, and it pitted two mighty states,

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Speaker 1: the mightiest states of ancient Greece, the most famous ones,

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Speaker 1: Athens and Sparta, against each other in what became a

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Speaker 1: death struggle, and it ended with Sparta besieging Athens, the

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Speaker 1: city state of Athens, and breaking it off from its

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Speaker 1: sea root as well destroying the long walls which were

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Speaker 1: barriers created between the city state of Athens and its

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Speaker 1: port of Paraeus, which was a couple of miles away,

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Speaker 1: and Athens was never the same really after this, So

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Speaker 1: it started out as a conflict that would have been

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Speaker 1: similar to many others in ancient Greece hoplight warfare, which

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Speaker 1: was only engaged in by citizens of the city state

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Speaker 1: who could afford the armor, the breastplate, the shield. In fact,

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Speaker 1: the shield known as a hop lawn is where we

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Speaker 1: get the term hoplight from hop lights were heavy armored infantry,

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Speaker 1: and that's what we generally think of shields locked interconnected

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Speaker 1: and hop lights holding a spear uh and also having

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Speaker 1: a a short sword for thrust ng um. But this

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Speaker 1: conflict between Sparta and Athens had been building for some

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Speaker 1: time and it quickly viral out of control. And to

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Speaker 1: really understand why people draw parallels between Athens and modern America,

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Speaker 1: for example, and it's fight with Sparta, which has been

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Speaker 1: viewed in the context of a Cold War paradigm, where

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Speaker 1: Sparta it's a land It was a landlocked power of

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Speaker 1: militarism and oppression. In fact, the Spartans relied on a

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Speaker 1: vast army of slaves of Hellots to do the the

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Speaker 1: farm work and and to support this professional standing army

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Speaker 1: UH in Sparta. And to become a member of that

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Speaker 1: army you had to go through an incredibly rigorous school

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Speaker 1: that started in adolescence called the Agoge. So it's almost

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Speaker 1: like basic underwater demolition school for the Navy seals. You know, buds,

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Speaker 1: but it's buds that you would start when you were

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Speaker 1: a teenager and you never really got out of it.

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Speaker 1: Uh That Sparta has been viewed in the context of

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Speaker 1: trying to find a historical analogy today as a Cold

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Speaker 1: War enemy of Athens, or rather as a Cold War

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Speaker 1: parallel between Athens and Sparta, with Athens as the United

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Speaker 1: States and Sparta as the Soviet Union, major land power,

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Speaker 1: oppression totalitarian. Athens, of course, with a population a city

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Speaker 1: state population that was only really in the same hundreds

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Speaker 1: of thousands, you'd say, and and the entirety of the

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Speaker 1: Greek Peninsula should be noted, is the size of a

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Speaker 1: midsized US state. So this conflict was playing out predominantly

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Speaker 1: on what is a pretty small land mass. Although Athens

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Speaker 1: was also overseeing a vast empire at the time, it

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Speaker 1: had city states that paid tribute to it. It was

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Speaker 1: a naval power again brings us back to the Cold

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Speaker 1: War US versus Soviet at paradigm, and it had really

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Speaker 1: vassal states that it could call upon UH from all

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Speaker 1: across the Mediterranean. So what we're to city states that

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Speaker 1: weren't really that large squaring off against each other also

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Speaker 1: brought in much of the ancient world through a battle

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Speaker 1: that went on for decades. The Peloponnesian War, of course,

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Speaker 1: is named for the Peloponnese, which is a peninsula separated

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Speaker 1: from the rest of mainland Greece by the Gulf of Corinth.

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Speaker 1: Those of you who are longtime members of Team buck, No,

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Speaker 1: the Gulf of Corinth is the scene of the Great

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Speaker 1: Battle of Lepanto between the Allied Ottoman forces and those

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Speaker 1: of Christian Europe in fifteen seventy one, an enormous naval

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Speaker 1: battle that we will have to revisit this fall on

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Speaker 1: its anniversary. UM. But I digress. So the Peloponnese was

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Speaker 1: the peninsula where you could find the ancient cities of Sparta, Argos,

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Speaker 1: and Corinth, among others. And that's part of what we

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Speaker 1: don't get in most of our reading about ancient Greece

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Speaker 1: is that there were other major city states Karnth, Thebes

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Speaker 1: that played a role in UH, not just the battle

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Speaker 1: or the Peloponnesian War. UM, but in ancient Greece's growth

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Speaker 1: and in the major the major battles, including against the

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Speaker 1: invading Persian hordes. UM. But without without question that two

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Speaker 1: major city states at the time were Sparta and Athens.

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Speaker 1: So you had two great powers of the period, including

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Speaker 1: Athens in all of its splendor, with its art. It's UH,

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Speaker 1: it's culture, it's democracy, which of course didn't mean everybody

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Speaker 1: got to vote. It just meant citizens, which was a

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Speaker 1: very a small percentage of the overall population were allowed

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Speaker 1: to vote. But ancient Athens, which is the cradle of

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Speaker 1: Western civilization, was squaring off against Sparta, a militaristic, totalitarian

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Speaker 1: really society, certainly authoritarian UH in what didn't seem like

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Speaker 1: it would be all that different from previous fights. There

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Speaker 1: would be UH city states would fight in and it

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Speaker 1: would be over the allegiance of another city state or

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Speaker 1: a relatively short term and UH minor in the historical scope, grievance.

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Speaker 1: But the Peloponnesian War, and by the way, it's thought

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Speaker 1: of as the Athenian War by others in it and

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Speaker 1: thucidities who's not just a great historian but was a

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Speaker 1: general in this war, was in Athens during one of

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Speaker 1: the plagues. So you're when you talk about the thucidities.

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Speaker 1: And I think one of the reasons why he has

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Speaker 1: so much respect as a historian among military men of

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Speaker 1: today and and and honestly for many centuries, uh, is

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Speaker 1: that and he was read by he's read by all

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Speaker 1: the great military theorists and historians, is because he was

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Speaker 1: a practitioner as well as a great writer and historian.

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Speaker 1: He was a general who squared all against the Spartans. Uh.

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Speaker 1: He knew this warfare firsthand. He was there, he lived it,

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Speaker 1: he was a part of it. So you get a

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Speaker 1: very particular view from Thucydites. And I highly recommend if

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Speaker 1: you are looking for gripping reading that you know is

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Speaker 1: written in historical narrative form, but is is true and

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Speaker 1: is accurate, just pick up the Peloponnesian War. But I

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Speaker 1: think when you look at the the historians and why

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Speaker 1: they try to draw from this for today and back

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Speaker 1: to our article about why the Trump White House is

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Speaker 1: having meetings according to this political piece where they discussed

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Speaker 1: just the history of ancient Greece, think about this, and

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Speaker 1: they have the top military and national security minds in

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Speaker 1: this administration are readers of foucidities are history buffs when

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Speaker 1: it comes to ancient Greece is because they they see

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Speaker 1: the uh this this great power conflict of the time.

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Speaker 1: There are similar dynamics, and in this case it may

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Speaker 1: be that the dynamic is between the US and China.

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Speaker 1: In the past people said it was between the US

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Speaker 1: and the Soviet Union, and looking for similarities and points

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Speaker 1: of comparison. One part of the Peloponnesian War that is

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Speaker 1: so compelling, both as reading and as a means of

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Speaker 1: understanding how war and the politics around it really functions

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Speaker 1: and operates, is that it became quickly a total war.

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Speaker 1: It became a war of annihilation, of extermination of cities

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Speaker 1: of sieges that ended with the massacre of all inhabitants.

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Speaker 1: This had not been the standard operating procedure on the

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Speaker 1: Greek peninsula in the fifth century BC. But this war

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Speaker 1: quickly accelerated and it became not just a limited conflict

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Speaker 1: between a spartan military that besieged Athens for a period

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Speaker 1: of time. Because remember they were these soldiers were on

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Speaker 1: a season that had to do with the harvest. There

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Speaker 1: was a limited campaigning season, and so usually conflicts were

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Speaker 1: limited in scope. This became a total war on the

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Speaker 1: peninsula and across the Mediterranean. It even involved an expedition

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Speaker 1: to Syracuse in Sicily that was disastrous for the Athenians.

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Speaker 1: It stretched on for years and years. You had during

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Speaker 1: this period Pericles, the most famous of all ancient Greek

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Speaker 1: Athenian leaders, give his funeral oration one of the most

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Speaker 1: famous speeches in all history. And when you see how

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Speaker 1: the decisions were made at the time, Uh, there was passion,

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Speaker 1: there was patriotism. There were fears about the annihilation not

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Speaker 1: just of a military force, but of the people back

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Speaker 1: home if the military was unsuccessful. Uh. There was treachery,

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Speaker 1: there was backstabbing, there was betrayaled by different allies. All

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Speaker 1: of these different factors were brought together in a conflict

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Speaker 1: that was entire among people who spoke the same language,

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Speaker 1: roughly speaking, had the same culture. Uh. And you'd think

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Speaker 1: would be able to settle their differences in a way

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Speaker 1: that would have been much more amenable and much more

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Speaker 1: positive for both sides. But the Peloponnesian War is really

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Speaker 1: in the fifth century BC again, twenty seven years from

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Speaker 1: four thirty one to four or four BC, would be

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Speaker 1: better described as the Great Greek Civil War and it was,

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Speaker 1: as I said, a war that turned into total war,

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Speaker 1: war of annihilation and extermination. And uh, that's why people

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Speaker 1: also look at how did this happen, how did we

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Speaker 1: get how did they get to that point, and then

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Speaker 1: look for lessons for today in the context of the U. S.

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Speaker 1: China relationship. It's uh, I think a stretch to find

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Speaker 1: all that much of of a comparison right now, because

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Speaker 1: of many of the at economic ties that we have

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Speaker 1: between the US and China, the distance between the two countries.

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Speaker 1: But people would say, in the Peloponnesian War, you had

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Speaker 1: battles waged far afield from Spartan and from Sparta and

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Speaker 1: Athens that were proxy battles, proxy wars. Well, they're certainly

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Speaker 1: could be similar situations between the US and China going

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Speaker 1: into the future. But the Peloponnesian War is a if

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Speaker 1: you're interested in ancient Greece at all, it is essential,

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Speaker 1: it is must reading, uh, and that the White House

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Speaker 1: is thinking about this, is talking to historians about it

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Speaker 1: and looking at it as a place for wisdom and

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Speaker 1: perhaps even some answers as to long term U. S.

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Speaker 1: Foreign policy trajectory. I think they're looking for wisdom in

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Speaker 1: a in a smart place. I think that this is

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Speaker 1: a worthwhile endeavor for them. Uh. And I'm glad that

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Speaker 1: I was able to give you a little bit of

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Speaker 1: why the Peloponnesian War is of such interest and why

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Speaker 1: through Cyddes, the ancient Greek historian makes for such compelling reading.

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Speaker 1: By the way, if you want a more recent version

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Speaker 1: of this, A War Like no Other by Victor Davis

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Speaker 1: Hansen is a fantastic book and I highly recommend it.

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Speaker 1: We will hit a quick break here, team will be

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