WEBVTT - The Tudor Villainess 0:00:00.640 --> 0:00:04.040 One quick bit of housekeeping before we begin. I am 0:00:04.280 --> 0:00:08.360 so so excited that in twenty twenty seven I will 0:00:08.360 --> 0:00:12.560 be partnering with Common Ground Pilgrimages again to lead a 0:00:12.840 --> 0:00:17.639 Pride and Prejudice pilgrimage in England. If you've been a 0:00:17.680 --> 0:00:20.079 longtime listener of the show, you're probably used to be 0:00:20.200 --> 0:00:23.000 talking about these, but they are honestly my favorite thing 0:00:23.040 --> 0:00:25.680 in the world. We pick a book and for a 0:00:25.720 --> 0:00:28.800 week just gather a group of like, smart, wonderful people 0:00:28.840 --> 0:00:31.840 together to talk about the book and go on long 0:00:31.880 --> 0:00:35.040 walks in the English countryside. And I could not be 0:00:35.120 --> 0:00:37.559 more thrilled that the next book I'm doing is Pride 0:00:37.640 --> 0:00:41.559 and Prejudice. So if you're at all interested in joining 0:00:41.600 --> 0:00:44.120 with us, I think we still have Depending on when 0:00:44.159 --> 0:00:48.159 this episode comes out, a few slots available google Common 0:00:48.200 --> 0:00:52.280 Ground Pilgrimages, Danish worts Pride and Prejudice. It'll come up. 0:00:52.760 --> 0:00:54.880 I have so much fun doing it, and it also 0:00:54.960 --> 0:00:58.920 makes the trip so special if podcast listeners and members 0:00:58.920 --> 0:01:02.120 of the Noble family are also coming along, So take 0:01:02.160 --> 0:01:07.120 a look at that. Let's get into the episode. Welcome 0:01:07.240 --> 0:01:11.120 to Noble Blood, a production of iHeartRadio and Grimm and 0:01:11.160 --> 0:01:18.320 Mild from Aaron Manky Listener discretion advised. In fifteen forty two, 0:01:18.760 --> 0:01:22.480 Lady Rochford, lady in waiting to multiple queens and sister 0:01:22.520 --> 0:01:26.480 in law to one, was awaiting a trial during which 0:01:26.600 --> 0:01:31.560 she would almost certainly be convicted of high treason. Certainly, 0:01:31.720 --> 0:01:34.720 King Henry the Eighth was determined for her to be 0:01:34.800 --> 0:01:40.520 found guilty and executed. But there was one problem. During 0:01:40.720 --> 0:01:45.760 Lady Rochford's interrogation, she suffered a nervous breakdown and, for 0:01:45.959 --> 0:01:50.400 lack of a better phrase, went insane. She had quote 0:01:50.520 --> 0:01:55.520 fits of frenzy and lost her connection with reality. Now this, 0:01:55.640 --> 0:01:58.920 of course was a problem for Lady Rochford. No one 0:01:58.960 --> 0:02:02.520 wants to go mad, But it was also a problem 0:02:02.720 --> 0:02:06.280 for Henry the Eighth because it wouldn't be legal for 0:02:06.400 --> 0:02:10.640 him to try and execute someone who was not mentally fit. 0:02:11.440 --> 0:02:15.240 And so Lady Rochford was brought from her imprisonment at 0:02:15.240 --> 0:02:18.680 the Tower of London to the home of Lady Russell, 0:02:19.000 --> 0:02:21.919 the wife of the Lord Admiral, in order to try 0:02:22.000 --> 0:02:25.400 to nurse her back to health and sanity, for the 0:02:25.480 --> 0:02:31.640 goal of expediting her execution. But Henry wasn't content to wait. 0:02:32.280 --> 0:02:36.200 A bill was passed allowing the execution of the insane, 0:02:36.680 --> 0:02:40.680 and Jane was duly convicted by an act of attainder. 0:02:41.880 --> 0:02:46.080 When Jane, Lady Rochford was told of her impending death, 0:02:46.600 --> 0:02:50.640 it seems her sanity returned to her. Maybe the lady 0:02:50.720 --> 0:02:53.840 had been faking it, trying to get a reprieve or 0:02:53.960 --> 0:02:58.040 postpone her death sentence, or maybe the shock of the 0:02:58.240 --> 0:03:03.000 end arriving jolted her back into her right mind. But 0:03:03.280 --> 0:03:08.040 it didn't matter, mad Or saying Lady Rochford was going 0:03:08.160 --> 0:03:13.560 to the scaffold. Lady Rochford was born Jane Parker, but 0:03:13.720 --> 0:03:17.600 most people are probably more familiar with her married name, 0:03:18.200 --> 0:03:23.120 Jane Bolin. She was married to George Bolin, the brother 0:03:23.320 --> 0:03:28.000 of Anne, the brother who incidentally was convicted of incest 0:03:28.120 --> 0:03:32.360 with his sister before they were both beheaded. If you 0:03:32.520 --> 0:03:37.360 are a frequent reader of Tudor era literature or watcher 0:03:37.440 --> 0:03:42.960 of historical dramas, you probably know Lady Rochford as a villainous, 0:03:43.520 --> 0:03:48.320 a jealous social climbing shrew who testified against her own 0:03:48.480 --> 0:03:52.680 husband in a vindictive attempt to take down her hated 0:03:52.840 --> 0:03:57.600 sister in law. Tracy Borman, chief historian at Historic Royal 0:03:57.680 --> 0:04:02.760 Palaces has characterized her as quote the most hated woman 0:04:03.000 --> 0:04:08.320 in Tudor, England, but the truth about Jane Boleyn, Lady 0:04:08.400 --> 0:04:15.800 Rochford is unsurprisingly more complicated, and modern scholarship has shed 0:04:16.040 --> 0:04:21.280 new light on Jane's terrible reputation and whether or not 0:04:21.560 --> 0:04:26.359 she was responsible for the downfall of Anne Boleyn. She 0:04:26.720 --> 0:04:31.480 was certainly more involved in the downfall of another queen 0:04:32.080 --> 0:04:38.120 and cousin, Katherine Howard. Jane Boln would eventually lose her 0:04:38.200 --> 0:04:42.120 own head, and two of the five queens she served 0:04:42.200 --> 0:04:47.400 under suffered the same fate. The question, then, is how 0:04:47.480 --> 0:04:53.000 much was really Jane's fault. I'm Danish Schwartz and this 0:04:53.320 --> 0:05:00.240 is noble blood. Jane Bolin was born Jane Parker, a 0:05:00.240 --> 0:05:03.880 well connected girl from a good family. Her father was 0:05:03.920 --> 0:05:07.080 a baron and her mother was the great granddaughter of 0:05:07.200 --> 0:05:11.920 Margaret Beauchamp, the maternal grandmother of Henry the Seventh. Though 0:05:12.040 --> 0:05:16.440 unfortunately a paucity of records means we don't know exactly 0:05:16.600 --> 0:05:20.520 when Jane was born, her early life reads as though 0:05:20.560 --> 0:05:24.360 she's a bit of the forest gump of Tudor England, 0:05:24.880 --> 0:05:29.279 appearing at the most famous events in Henry the eighth's reign. 0:05:29.880 --> 0:05:33.200 When Jane was a young woman, she joined the household 0:05:33.240 --> 0:05:36.400 of Catherine of Aragon, and she was with the court 0:05:36.600 --> 0:05:40.719 in fifteen twenty when they journeyed to France for the 0:05:40.760 --> 0:05:44.480 field of the Cloth of Gold, when Henry had a 0:05:44.520 --> 0:05:49.080 famous meeting with the King of France. Two years later, 0:05:49.360 --> 0:05:53.400 Jane appeared again at a pivotal moment in history at 0:05:53.440 --> 0:05:58.440 the famous Mask performance at York Palace, a performance of 0:05:58.880 --> 0:06:03.679 the Chateau Verre, which consisted of a giant imitation castle 0:06:03.800 --> 0:06:07.560 covered in green foil and some of the most beautiful 0:06:07.600 --> 0:06:12.360 women in court playing virtues that needed to be rescued 0:06:12.440 --> 0:06:18.400 by crusading knights. Jane, one of the performers, portrayed Constancy, 0:06:18.960 --> 0:06:24.479 alongside her future sisters in law Mary Bolin Kindness and 0:06:24.680 --> 0:06:30.039 Anne Bolin fittingly perseverance. A few years later, as the 0:06:30.120 --> 0:06:37.640 Bolins continued to rise at court, Jane married the Bolan brother, George. 0:06:37.680 --> 0:06:42.159 It was a fitting match, with George's sister favored by 0:06:42.200 --> 0:06:45.919 the king, obviously not yet queen, but certainly being paid 0:06:46.080 --> 0:06:50.800 special attention to the Bolan family star was on the rise. 0:06:51.520 --> 0:06:56.320 George was given the sinisterly named Grimstone Manor as a 0:06:56.360 --> 0:06:59.560 wedding gift, and a few years after they were married, 0:07:00.120 --> 0:07:05.400 Jane became not just Jane Bolin but also the Viscountess Rochford. 0:07:06.320 --> 0:07:10.000 Why was the Bolin star on the rise? Well, I 0:07:10.400 --> 0:07:15.080 assume you probably know this story. First, Henry had had 0:07:15.160 --> 0:07:20.320 an affair with Mary Bolin, actually the married Mary carry 0:07:20.880 --> 0:07:26.240 but when given what he wanted, he lost interest fairly quickly, 0:07:26.960 --> 0:07:31.200 and then King Henry the Eighth became enchanted by dark, 0:07:31.440 --> 0:07:36.160 quick witted, charming Anne. As he fell deeper in love, 0:07:36.640 --> 0:07:41.120 he became more frustrated that his decades long marriage with 0:07:41.280 --> 0:07:46.120 Catherine of Arragon hadn't produced any male heirs, and he 0:07:46.200 --> 0:07:50.160 became more convinced that that was God's way of showing 0:07:50.240 --> 0:07:54.520 him that the marriage had actually been invalid the entire time. 0:07:55.360 --> 0:07:59.240 Henry began his maneuvers to do whatever he could to 0:07:59.280 --> 0:08:03.080 get thee to annul his first marriage so that he 0:08:03.120 --> 0:08:07.440 could marry Anne. In the meantime, the king showed the 0:08:07.480 --> 0:08:13.080 Bolens whatever favor he could. They were given the luxurious 0:08:13.280 --> 0:08:17.760 palace of Bullieu, which had hot and cold running water. 0:08:18.520 --> 0:08:22.560 As if the symbolism couldn't be more obvious with regards 0:08:22.600 --> 0:08:27.520 to the changing of fortunes, The palace had formerly belonged 0:08:27.560 --> 0:08:33.040 to Mary, Henry's daughter by Catherine of Aragon. She Mary 0:08:33.240 --> 0:08:38.400 was banished to less luxurious digs, and the Bolins swept 0:08:38.480 --> 0:08:43.080 into place. A lot of our information with what was 0:08:43.120 --> 0:08:47.680 happening with Jane at this point is filling in whatever 0:08:47.760 --> 0:08:52.959 gaps we can with our best educated guesses. The conventional 0:08:53.080 --> 0:08:59.320 wisdom is that Jane and George had a poisonous, unhappy marriage, 0:08:59.800 --> 0:09:05.040 that Jane was jealous and bitter toward Anne Boleyn. It's 0:09:05.120 --> 0:09:08.840 certainly possible to read the story that way, but the 0:09:08.960 --> 0:09:15.000 evidence isn't exactly air tight, and in recent years, historians, 0:09:15.080 --> 0:09:20.599 particularly Julia Fox, have begun a bit of a reclamation project. 0:09:21.440 --> 0:09:26.120 People historically have pointed out that George and Jane didn't 0:09:26.160 --> 0:09:29.559 have any children as evidence for the fact that their 0:09:29.600 --> 0:09:33.680 marriage was unhappy, but there are plenty of reasons why 0:09:33.760 --> 0:09:36.920 people might not have been able to have children, and 0:09:37.160 --> 0:09:42.079 all contemporary writing seems to indicate that Jane really cared 0:09:42.120 --> 0:09:46.560 for George, even when, as you'll soon see, trouble came 0:09:46.600 --> 0:09:50.439 for them. It certainly wasn't a love match, but that 0:09:50.480 --> 0:09:54.640 doesn't mean by Tudor standards, it was an unsuccessful marriage. 0:09:55.280 --> 0:09:59.280 Another central piece of evidence in favor of Jane's resentment 0:09:59.400 --> 0:10:04.400 for the boletin is apparent writing that indicates Jane allegedly 0:10:04.520 --> 0:10:09.560 participated in a group of ladies protesting against Anne after 0:10:09.679 --> 0:10:13.840 she became queen, a public show of support for Henry's 0:10:13.920 --> 0:10:19.800 daughter Mary from his first marriage, Except did Jane actually 0:10:19.840 --> 0:10:26.040 attend that protest? The evidence comes from handwritten Marginalia, a 0:10:26.120 --> 0:10:32.160 contemporary source documenting the protest, who wrote Downmu Lord Rochfort 0:10:32.240 --> 0:10:37.360 and Meu Lord Guillaume, indicating George boln Lord Rochfort, and 0:10:37.559 --> 0:10:42.840 William Howard. In the nineteenth century, a biographer interpreted that 0:10:43.280 --> 0:10:47.360 as meaning their wives had been among the women protesting, 0:10:48.120 --> 0:10:53.040 but modern scholarship indicates that that almost certainly was not 0:10:53.200 --> 0:10:58.640 the case. As Sylvia Barbara Sorberton points out, William Howard's 0:10:58.679 --> 0:11:02.880 wife actually he died a few months before the protest, 0:11:03.320 --> 0:11:07.200 and he wouldn't marry again until the next year, so 0:11:07.520 --> 0:11:10.400 he didn't even have a wife at the time who 0:11:10.440 --> 0:11:15.520 could have attended the protest. And for Jane, in Sorberton's 0:11:15.600 --> 0:11:19.760 words quote, to break the habit of a lifetime and 0:11:20.040 --> 0:11:25.280 speak out, particularly against her husband's family, would be most 0:11:25.520 --> 0:11:31.839 uncharacteristic her fortunes had risen with the Bolins, it would 0:11:31.880 --> 0:11:37.080 have been outright foolish and probably far more notable than 0:11:37.160 --> 0:11:40.080 just a scribble in a margin if she had taken 0:11:40.360 --> 0:11:44.240 such a public stance against her very powerful sister in law. 0:11:44.880 --> 0:11:49.360 It is more likely. Saburton posits that George Bolin and 0:11:49.520 --> 0:11:54.520 William Howard had been the men tasked with disciplining those involved. 0:11:55.440 --> 0:12:00.240 Being married to George Bolin had only made Jane more 0:12:00.280 --> 0:12:04.680 prominent and important at court. George was at the heart 0:12:04.880 --> 0:12:09.640 of courtly culture, with a flourishing career and an expanding 0:12:09.679 --> 0:12:14.760 portfolio of properties. It stands to reason that Jane would 0:12:14.800 --> 0:12:19.680 have been perfectly content to rise with him and his sister, 0:12:20.480 --> 0:12:27.000 But unfortunately for Jane, history would have other ideas. It 0:12:27.120 --> 0:12:30.000 didn't take long after King Henry the Eighth and Anne 0:12:30.040 --> 0:12:33.840 Boleyn were married for trouble to begin to brew for 0:12:33.960 --> 0:12:38.280 the new queen. AND's greatest problem was that she did 0:12:38.320 --> 0:12:43.040 not deliver Henry the son she had promised. She gave birth, 0:12:43.600 --> 0:12:47.240 but the prince everyone was expecting turned out to be 0:12:47.480 --> 0:12:52.240 a princess, and then, though Anne became pregnant again, she 0:12:52.320 --> 0:12:57.240 suffered a miscarriage. Henry began to get anxious and impatient, 0:12:57.880 --> 0:13:02.640 and Anne felt the tenuousness of her position. When Henry 0:13:02.720 --> 0:13:06.880 began to flirt with someone else at court, Anne asked 0:13:06.920 --> 0:13:09.840 her sister in law Jane, to scheme with her to 0:13:10.000 --> 0:13:15.160 find a way to get that woman sent away from court. Apparently, 0:13:15.440 --> 0:13:19.320 Jane picked a fight with that woman, hoping that Henry 0:13:19.360 --> 0:13:23.320 would dismiss her from court to avoid any public drama, 0:13:23.960 --> 0:13:30.000 but the plan backfired and Jane herself alone was temporarily exiled. 0:13:30.720 --> 0:13:35.040 It became more urgent than ever that Anne Boleyn become pregnant, 0:13:35.640 --> 0:13:40.680 but as she confided to Jane, there were some challenges 0:13:40.800 --> 0:13:45.600 with that, or rather one main challenge being that the 0:13:45.760 --> 0:13:52.120 king had performance issues in bed. Jane shared the gossip 0:13:52.200 --> 0:13:56.840 with her husband. Though again you can characterize Jane as 0:13:56.920 --> 0:14:02.240 a machiavellian and double faced schemer here, it seems equally 0:14:02.640 --> 0:14:06.640 or more likely that she was just an involved family 0:14:06.679 --> 0:14:11.199 member who shared her families concerned with their precarious position. 0:14:12.080 --> 0:14:14.880 The writing was on the wall with regards to the 0:14:14.920 --> 0:14:18.920 Bolins when a position opened up for a new Knight 0:14:19.080 --> 0:14:22.640 of the Garter, and instead of the honor being awarded 0:14:22.720 --> 0:14:26.520 to George Bolin. The King had the position go to 0:14:26.840 --> 0:14:32.920 Sir Nicholas Carew, a relative of Jane Seymour, the lady 0:14:32.960 --> 0:14:38.440 in waiting. Henry had recently turned his attention to the Queen. 0:14:38.720 --> 0:14:43.800 Anne Bolen couldn't get her own brother elected, it seemed 0:14:43.840 --> 0:14:50.200 obvious her days in power were numbered. In fifteen thirty six, 0:14:50.480 --> 0:14:53.760 Anne Bolin and her brother George were suddenly arrested and 0:14:54.000 --> 0:14:57.920 taken to the Tower of London along with four other men, 0:14:58.400 --> 0:15:03.720 accused of adultery and and therefore treason and in George's case, incest. 0:15:04.600 --> 0:15:08.200 This is where the climax comes in the legend of 0:15:08.320 --> 0:15:13.160 Jane Boln's villainy. The popular story is that Jane Bolin 0:15:13.400 --> 0:15:17.360 finally had an opportunity to turn on her hated husband 0:15:17.400 --> 0:15:19.880 and sister in law, and that she took it to 0:15:19.960 --> 0:15:23.120 give testimony against both of them that sent them to 0:15:23.200 --> 0:15:27.640 their deaths. But the reality is a lot more nuanced, 0:15:27.640 --> 0:15:32.120 and by actually looking directly at the primary sources, it's 0:15:32.360 --> 0:15:35.880 much harder to make the case for Jane as a villain. 0:15:36.480 --> 0:15:39.840 As I mentioned, the historian Julia Fox has been among 0:15:39.920 --> 0:15:44.880 the most prominent voices in redeeming Jane's character as she 0:15:45.000 --> 0:15:48.720 writes in Jane boln The True Story of the Infamous 0:15:48.800 --> 0:15:53.600 Lady Rochford, Jane quote had reaped nothing but benefits from 0:15:53.600 --> 0:15:56.880 her marriage, which had allowed her to live in quote 0:15:57.320 --> 0:16:04.840 unbridled luxury side of purely speculative motives. There's no actual 0:16:05.120 --> 0:16:09.200 textual reason she would have to drag down her own 0:16:09.280 --> 0:16:14.920 stature at court by disgracing her husband and sister in law. Instead, 0:16:15.200 --> 0:16:20.040 Fox paints a picture of what actually happened after her 0:16:20.160 --> 0:16:25.200 husband was suddenly arrested. Jane was, like everyone in their circle, 0:16:25.680 --> 0:16:31.760 interrogated in an incredibly high pressure environment, an interrogation during 0:16:31.800 --> 0:16:36.920 which she was almost certainly terrified and confused as to 0:16:37.040 --> 0:16:42.120 what was going on. As Fox writes, quote, the arrests 0:16:42.200 --> 0:16:46.120 had been so sudden and unexpected that there was no 0:16:46.320 --> 0:16:51.120 time to separate out what testimony might be damaging, what 0:16:51.280 --> 0:16:55.280 could be twisted to become so, or what could only 0:16:55.320 --> 0:17:00.800 be innocuous, no matter what the interpretation end quote. And 0:17:00.920 --> 0:17:04.119 while her husband of eleven years was in the tower, 0:17:04.680 --> 0:17:08.639 Jane was actually the only person to attempt to send 0:17:08.720 --> 0:17:12.399 him a letter in support. She promised in the letter 0:17:12.680 --> 0:17:17.199 to quote humbly make suit unto the King's Highness on 0:17:17.440 --> 0:17:23.400 his behalf. Jane's testimony came up only once during her 0:17:23.480 --> 0:17:27.880 husband's trial, the only evidence we actually have of Jane's 0:17:28.040 --> 0:17:33.240 so called betrayal. During the trial, Cromwell handed George a 0:17:33.359 --> 0:17:36.720 piece of paper while he was on the stand, paper 0:17:36.840 --> 0:17:40.760 with a question on it. Cromwell instructed him to answer 0:17:40.840 --> 0:17:45.320 the question with a simple yes or no. George instead 0:17:45.560 --> 0:17:49.800 read the note aloud, a question which had been about 0:17:49.840 --> 0:17:55.679 whether Anne had mentioned to Jane the King's indelicate troubles 0:17:55.760 --> 0:17:59.960 in the bedroom. It is damning, but it's also information 0:18:00.320 --> 0:18:05.520 that had been pulled from Jane by experts and determined interrogators. 0:18:06.320 --> 0:18:12.800 Hardly mustache twirling sabotage. Fox writes of Jane's inquisition. Quote, 0:18:13.119 --> 0:18:18.399 faced with such relentless, incessant questions which she had no 0:18:18.600 --> 0:18:22.680 choice but to answer, Jane would have searched her memory 0:18:22.800 --> 0:18:27.120 for every tiny incident that occurred to her. Jane had 0:18:27.160 --> 0:18:30.880 not been quick to tell tales, but she had buckled 0:18:30.960 --> 0:18:36.560 under the pressure of relentless questioning end quote. Perhaps even 0:18:36.840 --> 0:18:43.919 more tellingly, Sorburton points out no contemporary sources named Jane 0:18:44.320 --> 0:18:49.120 in their list of Bolin accusers. If Jane Boln had 0:18:49.200 --> 0:18:54.320 willingly turned on her husband and sister in law. Sorburton writes, quote, 0:18:54.600 --> 0:18:59.479 such explosive information would have been shared at court end quote, 0:19:00.480 --> 0:19:04.520 So if it was betrayal on Jane Boln's part, it 0:19:04.640 --> 0:19:10.360 was very subtle betrayal. It's only decades later that Jane's 0:19:10.520 --> 0:19:17.080 character assassination begins in earnest. The historian George Wyatt, writing 0:19:17.200 --> 0:19:23.080 in the seventeenth century, called Jane quote wicked wife, accuser 0:19:23.200 --> 0:19:26.360 of her own husband, even to the seeking of her 0:19:26.440 --> 0:19:33.280 own blood, and Jane became an especially useful scapegoat when 0:19:33.359 --> 0:19:39.640 Anne Boleyn's daughter Elizabeth eventually became Queen Elizabeth the First 0:19:40.440 --> 0:19:44.879 Elizabeth couldn't say that her father was a murderer, and 0:19:45.000 --> 0:19:49.760 she couldn't say that her mother was a treasonous adulteress, 0:19:49.800 --> 0:19:55.000 and so who was there to blame? As Julia Fox writes, quote, 0:19:55.400 --> 0:20:00.960 it was Jane's weakness under interrogation that gave her future detractors, 0:20:01.440 --> 0:20:05.160 happy to find a scapegoat to exonerate the king from 0:20:05.240 --> 0:20:09.840 the heinous charge of callously killing his innocent wife, the 0:20:09.960 --> 0:20:15.280 ammunition to maintain that it was her Jane's evidence that 0:20:15.359 --> 0:20:23.040 had fooled Henry and destroyed Anne and George end quote. Anne, George, 0:20:23.119 --> 0:20:27.320 and the four other men accused were all found guilty. 0:20:27.960 --> 0:20:32.560 Most historians today are in agreement that the charges were 0:20:32.720 --> 0:20:36.560 trumped up against Anne in order to dispose of her 0:20:37.000 --> 0:20:40.239 and to allow Henry to marry the new woman he 0:20:40.280 --> 0:20:44.280 had set his sights on. But Anne Boleyn would not 0:20:44.520 --> 0:20:48.119 be the last Queen Jane served who would go on 0:20:48.200 --> 0:20:53.040 to lose her head. After a temporary retreat from court, 0:20:53.160 --> 0:20:58.720 Jane Boleyn would eventually return, only to find herself embroiled 0:20:58.800 --> 0:21:04.320 in another skin. This time, however, she would certainly have 0:21:04.440 --> 0:21:11.000 her fair share of blame. Jane Boleyn was only away 0:21:11.000 --> 0:21:14.719 from court for a few months after her husband was killed, 0:21:15.200 --> 0:21:18.439 during which time she was in tense negotiations with her 0:21:18.480 --> 0:21:22.159 former father in law and with Thomas Cromwell about what 0:21:22.400 --> 0:21:25.760 she was owed as a widow. Her income would be 0:21:25.840 --> 0:21:30.560 significantly decreased, but she was eventually allocated one hundred pounds 0:21:30.560 --> 0:21:33.639 a year, enough to return to court as a lady 0:21:34.000 --> 0:21:37.760 in time to serve the brand new Queen Jane Seymour. 0:21:38.600 --> 0:21:42.280 As you're probably aware, turnover in the King Henry the 0:21:42.320 --> 0:21:48.680 Eighth Wife business was astonishingly high. Jane Lady Rochfort served 0:21:48.840 --> 0:21:54.240 Queen Jane Seymour until the queen died after complications following 0:21:54.280 --> 0:21:58.320 the birth of Henry's much sought after son. The next 0:21:58.400 --> 0:22:02.520 queen was a princess in ported from Germany for political reasons, 0:22:03.000 --> 0:22:07.119 Anne of Cleaves, whom Henry disliked almost as soon as 0:22:07.160 --> 0:22:10.840 he laid eyes on her. It's during this period that 0:22:10.960 --> 0:22:16.200 Jane's character as a sort of impulsive gossip comes into 0:22:16.320 --> 0:22:21.359 clear focus. At risk of being anachronistic, reading about her 0:22:21.440 --> 0:22:24.840 during this period, particularly in the books of Julia Fox 0:22:24.920 --> 0:22:28.680 and Gareth Russell, put to mind a sort of Tudor era, 0:22:28.960 --> 0:22:34.359 real housewife having whispered conversations that absolutely would be made 0:22:34.480 --> 0:22:40.280 public and apologies living for the drama. Anne of Cleaves, 0:22:40.400 --> 0:22:44.520 whether innocent or obtuse, told her ladies in waiting, that 0:22:44.640 --> 0:22:48.720 Henry did do his husbandly duty, you know, by kissing 0:22:48.800 --> 0:22:52.359 her good night and then letting her fall asleep. It 0:22:52.520 --> 0:22:56.640 was Jane among the women, remarking that Anne wasn't going 0:22:56.680 --> 0:23:00.399 to get pregnant with a little print that way. After, 0:23:00.680 --> 0:23:04.680 Henry found a way to dispatch with Anne of Cleaves, 0:23:05.160 --> 0:23:10.200 just legally this time, thankfully, not mortally. His next queen 0:23:10.600 --> 0:23:16.639 was the charming teenage Katherine Howard. Once again, Jane Bolen, 0:23:16.840 --> 0:23:22.080 Lady Rochford, was put into the queen's intimate service. In fact, 0:23:22.280 --> 0:23:26.040 with Catherine Howard, despite the fact that the two ladies 0:23:26.080 --> 0:23:30.520 were decades apart, the two became the closest of friends. 0:23:31.200 --> 0:23:36.760 Jane Boleyn, Lady Rochford, was Katherine Howard's confidante and eventually 0:23:37.200 --> 0:23:41.560 her conspirator. Plenty has been written on the life of 0:23:41.640 --> 0:23:45.440 Catherine Howard. In fact, we've done an episode on her 0:23:45.560 --> 0:23:49.240 on this very podcast during our series on the Wives 0:23:49.280 --> 0:23:52.679 of King Henry the Eighth. But the short version of 0:23:52.720 --> 0:23:56.840 her sad story is that months after she arrived at court, 0:23:57.200 --> 0:23:59.960 she caught the eye of the King, who was determined 0:24:00.280 --> 0:24:05.600 to make her his latest queen. Unfortunately, for everyone involved, 0:24:05.960 --> 0:24:09.440 there was a ticking time bomb when it came to Catherine, 0:24:09.960 --> 0:24:15.160 a secret that the King could absolutely not discover about 0:24:15.200 --> 0:24:21.520 his virginal new bride. Katherine had already had two liaisons 0:24:21.600 --> 0:24:25.480 with men in her grandmother's household, where she had grown up. 0:24:26.200 --> 0:24:30.280 The topics of those early relationships with regards to the 0:24:30.440 --> 0:24:34.320 question of consent in the context of the era, require 0:24:34.520 --> 0:24:37.120 far more nuanced than we have space for in an 0:24:37.160 --> 0:24:41.119 episode on Jane boln But if you're interested in the 0:24:41.320 --> 0:24:44.960 details of Catherine's life, I would direct you to the 0:24:45.080 --> 0:24:49.760 excellent biography by Gareth Russell. But suffice it to say 0:24:50.200 --> 0:24:56.920 those former relationships were once Catherine was queen, embarrassing and 0:24:57.359 --> 0:25:03.600 arguably treasonous episodes that she needed to remain secret. All 0:25:03.640 --> 0:25:07.119 of that would have been bad enough, but Catherine soon 0:25:07.240 --> 0:25:13.119 had another secret. The new Queen began a flirtation with 0:25:13.240 --> 0:25:18.600 a courtier named Thomas Culpeper. Whether this relationship was ever 0:25:18.800 --> 0:25:24.679 consummated remains an open question, but Catherine certainly enjoyed his 0:25:24.880 --> 0:25:28.879 company and sent him gifts and food when he was sick, 0:25:29.359 --> 0:25:34.400 made flirtatious comments to him, and, most damning of all, 0:25:35.040 --> 0:25:39.600 when the court was on procession through England, Katherine and 0:25:39.680 --> 0:25:44.879 her trusted lady in waiting, Jane Boleyn, made arrangements for 0:25:45.119 --> 0:25:52.000 secret meetings at every newcastle or manor along the queen's procession. 0:25:52.600 --> 0:25:58.680 Jane found quote back doors and backsteps where Culpeper could 0:25:58.760 --> 0:26:02.760 sneak in to meet the Queen without anyone else from 0:26:02.760 --> 0:26:07.360 the household knowing. Jane sent her own servant to check 0:26:07.440 --> 0:26:11.399 to see if the King's night watchman was nearby, and 0:26:11.520 --> 0:26:16.320 Jane herself would literally hide, keeping a lookout to make 0:26:16.359 --> 0:26:20.960 sure Catherine and Culpeper weren't discovered. Maybe this is the 0:26:21.000 --> 0:26:25.920 most shocking part of all. These secret meetings with Culpeper 0:26:26.320 --> 0:26:33.240 continued all summer, and that wouldn't actually be Catherine's downfall. Instead, 0:26:33.520 --> 0:26:38.080 Catherine's downfall came because a random courtier had told his 0:26:38.160 --> 0:26:41.080 sister that she should try to join the queen's household 0:26:41.119 --> 0:26:44.960 for social advancement. And then the sister scoffed and told 0:26:44.960 --> 0:26:49.360 her brother that she thought Catherine had low morals. After all, 0:26:49.520 --> 0:26:52.920 the sister said she had been there at Catherine's grandmother's 0:26:53.000 --> 0:26:56.640 estate during those early years when she had had those 0:26:57.000 --> 0:27:02.639 pre king relationships. This brother, agast reported what his sister 0:27:02.680 --> 0:27:08.240 had said, and the open secret finally became open. And 0:27:08.440 --> 0:27:14.000 when the investigation began once Culpeper's name was mentioned, the 0:27:14.080 --> 0:27:20.000 queen was already all but headless. In the autumn of 0:27:20.440 --> 0:27:25.000 fifteen forty one, when all of this came to a 0:27:25.000 --> 0:27:31.280 apology's head, Catherine was placed under house arrest at Sion Abbey. 0:27:32.000 --> 0:27:37.440 With regards to Catherine's investigation, the records are actually abundant 0:27:37.960 --> 0:27:42.680 in direct contrast with the shady investigation into Anne Bolin. 0:27:43.359 --> 0:27:47.200 It's as if the court wanted to prove that if 0:27:47.240 --> 0:27:50.960 Henry was going to execute another wife, he was going 0:27:51.000 --> 0:27:55.560 to do this one completely above board, with all of 0:27:55.600 --> 0:28:00.000 the proper paperwork. Intact, we do not have the action 0:28:00.040 --> 0:28:04.639 uctual record for Jane's testimony during the trial of Anne Boleyn, 0:28:05.200 --> 0:28:08.800 but we do have it for Catherine Howard. Jane was 0:28:08.880 --> 0:28:14.160 questioned and well interrogated. She admitted that quote she thinketh 0:28:14.359 --> 0:28:19.600 that Culpeper hath known the Queen Carnalie end quote, but 0:28:19.760 --> 0:28:23.400 she maintained that she never saw or heard any actual 0:28:23.520 --> 0:28:28.680 proof of consummation. Culpeper said that he had not slept 0:28:28.680 --> 0:28:32.639 with the queen, but that he had planned to, which, 0:28:32.960 --> 0:28:38.080 unfortunately for Culpeper, was more than enough to condemn him. 0:28:38.440 --> 0:28:43.400 Planning on committing treason was still a death sentence. It 0:28:43.600 --> 0:28:49.440 is pretty undeniable that Jane had been involved. Five years 0:28:49.560 --> 0:28:53.360 after the death of Anne Bolen, Jane was once again 0:28:53.480 --> 0:28:56.400 at the heart of a scandal that would lead to 0:28:56.480 --> 0:29:02.280 a headless queen. The French ambassador rod that Jane quote 0:29:02.480 --> 0:29:05.640 all her life had the name to esteem her honor 0:29:05.720 --> 0:29:10.000 little and has thus in her old age shown little 0:29:10.080 --> 0:29:17.520 amendment during Jane's interrogation, she lost touch with reality. Under 0:29:17.560 --> 0:29:21.239 the pressure of knowing what was about to happen and 0:29:21.400 --> 0:29:24.720 realizing that there was no way out of it. Jane 0:29:24.960 --> 0:29:29.800 went mad after a nervous breakdown, which manifested in quote 0:29:30.160 --> 0:29:34.960 fits of fancy. Though legally she couldn't stand trial for 0:29:35.000 --> 0:29:37.840 what she had done if she was insane, the King 0:29:38.080 --> 0:29:42.440 and his court was determined that this whole sordid Catherine 0:29:42.440 --> 0:29:46.440 Howard affair be dealt with completely and once and for all. 0:29:47.200 --> 0:29:50.880 A law was passed permitting the execution of the insane 0:29:50.920 --> 0:29:55.560 for high treason, and Jane was committed by parliamentary act 0:29:55.720 --> 0:30:00.640 of attainder. According to an ambassador, when Jane was told 0:30:00.680 --> 0:30:04.200 that she would finally be put to death, her symptoms 0:30:04.280 --> 0:30:09.040 of madness left her. We don't have a direct account 0:30:09.160 --> 0:30:13.360 of what exactly Jane and Katherine Howard might have said 0:30:13.400 --> 0:30:17.479 on the scaffold before their deaths, but one merchant who 0:30:17.560 --> 0:30:20.920 has an eye witnessed to the executions wrote in a 0:30:21.000 --> 0:30:25.920 letter that quote, they made the most godly and Christian ends. 0:30:26.600 --> 0:30:32.520 Because no one comments explicitly on Jane saying anything particularly notable, 0:30:33.080 --> 0:30:36.600 we have to assume that she just made her proper prayers, 0:30:37.120 --> 0:30:42.040 apologized for her sins, and begged for forgiveness from the king. 0:30:44.000 --> 0:30:47.400 As Nikola Clark writes in her book The Waiting Game, 0:30:48.040 --> 0:30:52.480 it's impossible to know why exactly Jane would have involved 0:30:52.520 --> 0:30:57.680 herself in such a deeply misguided scheme with Katherine Howard. 0:30:58.360 --> 0:31:02.200 Was she really just a real housewife type trying to 0:31:02.320 --> 0:31:07.240 stir up drama wherever she could. Clark writes, perhaps she 0:31:07.360 --> 0:31:10.600 really was as guilty as her colleagues made her out 0:31:10.680 --> 0:31:14.680 to be, encouraging the affair for nefarious reasons of her 0:31:14.680 --> 0:31:18.720 own revenge on her family or on the king, who 0:31:18.800 --> 0:31:22.680 had taken and twisted her words to kill her husband 0:31:23.120 --> 0:31:27.120 and to annul his own previous marriage, ruining her life 0:31:27.160 --> 0:31:32.000 and condemning her immortal soul. Perhaps she simply misjudged the 0:31:32.080 --> 0:31:39.720 situation and made some bad decisions. Perhaps perhaps perhaps end quote. 0:31:40.280 --> 0:31:44.120 Whatever the reason, at the time, Jane was decried as 0:31:44.280 --> 0:31:48.600