1 00:00:00,480 --> 00:00:03,040 Speaker 1: On this episode of News World, we hope Russia's leaders 2 00:00:03,080 --> 00:00:05,600 Speaker 1: will recognize that a future of cooperation and peace will 3 00:00:05,640 --> 00:00:09,360 Speaker 1: benefit all parties. The Cold War is over. This week 4 00:00:09,440 --> 00:00:12,160 Speaker 1: on sixty Minutes, we reported on the Russian hack of 5 00:00:12,240 --> 00:00:16,400 Speaker 1: solar Winds. Thousands of businesses and government agencies were caught 6 00:00:16,440 --> 00:00:21,079 Speaker 1: off guard by an unprecedented attack in a routine software update. 7 00:00:21,760 --> 00:00:25,400 Speaker 1: Russia had access for nine months before the hack was revealed. 8 00:00:25,840 --> 00:00:29,600 Speaker 1: The extent of the hack is still unknown. We spoke 9 00:00:29,640 --> 00:00:32,800 Speaker 1: to three cyber security experts who told us that US 10 00:00:32,880 --> 00:00:37,240 Speaker 1: strategy for cyber warfare is inattam and if it doesn't change, 11 00:00:37,479 --> 00:00:41,720 Speaker 1: the hacks will keep coming. Indictment charges thirteen Russian nationalists 12 00:00:42,159 --> 00:00:47,080 Speaker 1: and three Russian companies for committing federal crimes while seeking 13 00:00:47,120 --> 00:00:55,520 Speaker 1: to interfere in the United States political system. As a 14 00:00:55,600 --> 00:00:59,160 Speaker 1: thirty two year veteran of the Central Intelligence Agency, Jack 15 00:00:59,200 --> 00:01:01,360 Speaker 1: Divine knows a thing or two about the spy game. 16 00:01:02,000 --> 00:01:06,200 Speaker 1: His international experience with the US government included postings in 17 00:01:06,280 --> 00:01:09,640 Speaker 1: Latin America and Europe. During his more than thirty years 18 00:01:09,680 --> 00:01:13,319 Speaker 1: with the CIA, he was involved in organizing, planning, and 19 00:01:13,480 --> 00:01:18,000 Speaker 1: executing countless sensitive projects in virtually all areas of intelligence, 20 00:01:18,360 --> 00:01:24,080 Speaker 1: including analysis, operations, technology, and management. He is the recipient 21 00:01:24,360 --> 00:01:29,000 Speaker 1: of the CIA's Distinguished Intelligence Medal and several meritorious awards. 22 00:01:29,800 --> 00:01:33,040 Speaker 1: Jack currently serves as founding partner and president of the 23 00:01:33,160 --> 00:01:38,560 Speaker 1: Arkhan Group, which specializes in international crisis management, strategic intelligence, 24 00:01:39,240 --> 00:01:44,959 Speaker 1: investigative research, and business problem solving. His new book, Spymaster's Prison, 25 00:01:45,360 --> 00:02:02,720 Speaker 1: The Fight Against Russian Aggression, is out now, Jack Divine, Welcome. 26 00:02:03,480 --> 00:02:06,000 Speaker 1: You spend a good bit of time describing the covert 27 00:02:06,040 --> 00:02:08,519 Speaker 1: action activities of Russia, not only in the Cold War, 28 00:02:09,040 --> 00:02:11,480 Speaker 1: but up to and including it's an interference during the 29 00:02:11,520 --> 00:02:14,680 Speaker 1: Trump years. It's fascinating. Why did you decide you wanted 30 00:02:14,720 --> 00:02:17,160 Speaker 1: to write this book. Well, I think it's a story 31 00:02:17,639 --> 00:02:21,520 Speaker 1: that's not well appreciated. I started writing around the twenty 32 00:02:21,560 --> 00:02:26,519 Speaker 1: sixteen election, and I was struck by the Russians intervention 33 00:02:26,760 --> 00:02:30,640 Speaker 1: in the political process. Now, as you stated, I'm a 34 00:02:30,639 --> 00:02:33,120 Speaker 1: Cold warrior, and I mean I was around in the 35 00:02:33,160 --> 00:02:37,399 Speaker 1: Agency for a decade afterwards. But we had rules back then, 36 00:02:37,600 --> 00:02:40,880 Speaker 1: and one of the rules was not intervening in the 37 00:02:40,960 --> 00:02:44,360 Speaker 1: United States political process, and we did not intervene in 38 00:02:44,400 --> 00:02:48,200 Speaker 1: their political process from Stalin forward, and a lot of 39 00:02:48,240 --> 00:02:50,880 Speaker 1: people in the movies and so on. You see a 40 00:02:50,880 --> 00:02:54,000 Speaker 1: lot of different operations, but we had an understanding which 41 00:02:54,040 --> 00:02:57,000 Speaker 1: the old timers referred to as Moscow's rules. You can't 42 00:02:57,000 --> 00:02:59,480 Speaker 1: find it in writing. So I think there was too 43 00:02:59,560 --> 00:03:02,840 Speaker 1: much focus on personalities and other things, and we were 44 00:03:02,840 --> 00:03:06,640 Speaker 1: missing the big picture, and that is the Russians have 45 00:03:07,000 --> 00:03:10,840 Speaker 1: continue to operate very aggressively but on our home turf 46 00:03:10,840 --> 00:03:12,680 Speaker 1: in the United States, and I just wanted to bring 47 00:03:13,480 --> 00:03:16,360 Speaker 1: attention to that, and the book seemed to be the 48 00:03:16,400 --> 00:03:19,400 Speaker 1: best pathway for that. I'm curious, because you deal with 49 00:03:19,400 --> 00:03:21,560 Speaker 1: a lot of different cultures and a lot of different countries, 50 00:03:22,080 --> 00:03:25,519 Speaker 1: what makes the Russians different from the other people and 51 00:03:25,639 --> 00:03:29,320 Speaker 1: cultures you encountered without the CIA. That's a really good question, 52 00:03:29,320 --> 00:03:32,000 Speaker 1: and no one's ever asked me that. But you know, 53 00:03:32,040 --> 00:03:35,040 Speaker 1: I think when we get to talking about Putin and 54 00:03:35,120 --> 00:03:38,240 Speaker 1: what makes him tick, I mean, he's part of the culture. 55 00:03:38,400 --> 00:03:44,120 Speaker 1: I mean for most of their history. And you're a historian, 56 00:03:44,640 --> 00:03:49,320 Speaker 1: you know you had the Czars, oppressive authoritarian government, repression 57 00:03:49,320 --> 00:03:52,400 Speaker 1: of the people, you know, being afraid of your shadow, 58 00:03:52,960 --> 00:03:55,760 Speaker 1: and then you had World War Two, in which they 59 00:03:55,800 --> 00:03:59,320 Speaker 1: took a tremendous speeding. They were allies at least temporarily 60 00:04:00,080 --> 00:04:03,120 Speaker 1: US eleven million people. So they're going through great sacrifice, 61 00:04:03,680 --> 00:04:06,840 Speaker 1: and there's a deep seated love of Russia, which you know, 62 00:04:07,080 --> 00:04:10,240 Speaker 1: I applaud, there's nothing wrong with that. But they are 63 00:04:10,320 --> 00:04:15,400 Speaker 1: real nationalists, but they're used to living under difficult circumstances 64 00:04:15,440 --> 00:04:20,440 Speaker 1: and different regimes. And the Communists came along in nineteen 65 00:04:20,520 --> 00:04:24,480 Speaker 1: seventeen and replaced the Bolsheviks, but put at least unequally 66 00:04:24,520 --> 00:04:28,320 Speaker 1: if not more oppressive regime in. So the Russians I 67 00:04:28,400 --> 00:04:32,840 Speaker 1: dealt with you came from that background. But the thing 68 00:04:32,960 --> 00:04:35,640 Speaker 1: that's interesting about them the ones that we dealt with 69 00:04:35,680 --> 00:04:39,800 Speaker 1: in the Western world, in Paris and Mexico City and 70 00:04:40,160 --> 00:04:46,039 Speaker 1: Hong Kong and Tokyo, they were more cosmopolitan, right, And 71 00:04:46,120 --> 00:04:48,960 Speaker 1: when you look at Putin, his upbringing was not at that. 72 00:04:49,360 --> 00:04:52,880 Speaker 1: It was more internal or in East Germany. So when 73 00:04:52,880 --> 00:04:56,880 Speaker 1: you look at the Russian culture, it's one that sees 74 00:04:56,920 --> 00:04:59,960 Speaker 1: itself threatened, it attacked, and has a very strong national 75 00:05:00,040 --> 00:05:04,720 Speaker 1: wilbane and Putin plays to that. To what's there's Putin's 76 00:05:04,839 --> 00:05:08,880 Speaker 1: background in the KGB in your judgment, what excent is 77 00:05:08,920 --> 00:05:11,600 Speaker 1: that shape how he thinks? I think it's the key 78 00:05:11,680 --> 00:05:15,560 Speaker 1: I have a chapter called The Spymaster's President, and there's 79 00:05:15,600 --> 00:05:18,760 Speaker 1: a quote right under the title, and it says, there 80 00:05:18,880 --> 00:05:24,520 Speaker 1: is no such thing as a former KGB officer Vladimir Putin. 81 00:05:24,920 --> 00:05:27,680 Speaker 1: I would say there's no such thing as a former 82 00:05:27,880 --> 00:05:31,800 Speaker 1: CIA officer Jack Divine. But I know what he's talking about. 83 00:05:31,839 --> 00:05:34,480 Speaker 1: And how do you look at the world, what's your makeup? 84 00:05:35,040 --> 00:05:37,640 Speaker 1: And when you look at Putin's important to realize that 85 00:05:37,880 --> 00:05:40,359 Speaker 1: when he was seventeen he trying to join the KGB. 86 00:05:40,560 --> 00:05:43,599 Speaker 1: He saw it career aspiration, and he was turned down 87 00:05:43,600 --> 00:05:46,240 Speaker 1: for his age. But eventually he joined and was quite 88 00:05:46,279 --> 00:05:49,800 Speaker 1: successful in his early career, but he drew the short straw. 89 00:05:49,960 --> 00:05:52,200 Speaker 1: He went to Dresden. I mean, if you could imagine 90 00:05:52,200 --> 00:05:56,000 Speaker 1: in the Cold War Marcus will the famous spy who 91 00:05:56,279 --> 00:05:59,960 Speaker 1: had one hundred thousand spies. He lived in the Dresden 92 00:06:00,600 --> 00:06:03,440 Speaker 1: environment and I think it shaped him. Wolfe was the 93 00:06:03,640 --> 00:06:07,560 Speaker 1: la Carey model for many of his books. So when 94 00:06:07,600 --> 00:06:09,800 Speaker 1: the world came to an end for him, it was 95 00:06:09,839 --> 00:06:13,919 Speaker 1: when the Soviet Union collapsed, and I think he was 96 00:06:14,000 --> 00:06:16,520 Speaker 1: determined that point forward that he would do everything he 97 00:06:16,520 --> 00:06:21,120 Speaker 1: could to reinstate Russia's power. And I think the big 98 00:06:21,760 --> 00:06:24,200 Speaker 1: point that I would make him out. Putin is he 99 00:06:24,279 --> 00:06:28,840 Speaker 1: has a truly genuine Cold War strategy, and I think 100 00:06:28,839 --> 00:06:31,760 Speaker 1: it's outdated, but we better recognize it for what it is. 101 00:06:32,680 --> 00:06:35,479 Speaker 1: What do you mean by that, Well, when you look 102 00:06:35,560 --> 00:06:37,960 Speaker 1: at you what was the Cold War strategy? It was 103 00:06:38,000 --> 00:06:42,760 Speaker 1: the weekend, the neighbors around Russia Central. It was to 104 00:06:42,920 --> 00:06:45,640 Speaker 1: make sure that the Ukraine was part of Russia. Russia 105 00:06:45,720 --> 00:06:48,080 Speaker 1: is a small, small potatoes when you look at the 106 00:06:48,160 --> 00:06:52,159 Speaker 1: GDP when it stands alone, it's probably less than Spain 107 00:06:52,279 --> 00:06:54,640 Speaker 1: or about the same as Spain and itadies, but with 108 00:06:54,839 --> 00:06:59,440 Speaker 1: Ukraine it's a much more powerful entity historically. So the 109 00:06:59,520 --> 00:07:01,960 Speaker 1: fact that Putin went in and basically took over the 110 00:07:02,000 --> 00:07:05,880 Speaker 1: Eastern partner crime is a good example of his ambitions. 111 00:07:05,920 --> 00:07:08,719 Speaker 1: He sees the United States and the Cold War mentality 112 00:07:08,760 --> 00:07:11,320 Speaker 1: that we're out to get him and his country. And 113 00:07:11,400 --> 00:07:13,640 Speaker 1: I think the other thing I would point to is 114 00:07:13,800 --> 00:07:16,320 Speaker 1: in the Cold War, we sort of challenged each other 115 00:07:16,440 --> 00:07:19,560 Speaker 1: in various territories where we rubbed up against each other. 116 00:07:19,640 --> 00:07:24,120 Speaker 1: So he's meddling in Venezuela, warm water ports. You know, 117 00:07:24,160 --> 00:07:27,920 Speaker 1: he's got a foothold in Syria. So I think he's 118 00:07:27,960 --> 00:07:30,520 Speaker 1: punching very much above his weight. But it's a very 119 00:07:30,600 --> 00:07:33,920 Speaker 1: tactical execution of a Cold War strategy. And I think 120 00:07:33,960 --> 00:07:35,840 Speaker 1: for the good of Russian for the good of the 121 00:07:35,880 --> 00:07:38,120 Speaker 1: Western world, he'd be better off of he was part 122 00:07:38,160 --> 00:07:40,880 Speaker 1: of the Western Alliance. And there's no reason now that 123 00:07:40,920 --> 00:07:44,840 Speaker 1: they're no longer Communist with any ideological orientation, that they 124 00:07:44,840 --> 00:08:06,280 Speaker 1: shouldn't be a new judgment. What's the danger of Putin 125 00:08:07,280 --> 00:08:11,120 Speaker 1: or his successor ultimately deciding that their future is more 126 00:08:11,160 --> 00:08:15,600 Speaker 1: with China than with us. When I ran the Afghan Program, 127 00:08:15,800 --> 00:08:18,720 Speaker 1: the US government's program to drive the Russians out of 128 00:08:18,920 --> 00:08:23,200 Speaker 1: Afghanistan Stinger misslewin in during that time frame, I used 129 00:08:23,200 --> 00:08:26,040 Speaker 1: to have to negotiate with the Chinese to get weapons. 130 00:08:26,080 --> 00:08:28,760 Speaker 1: And what was interesting. I went out there and I 131 00:08:28,760 --> 00:08:32,240 Speaker 1: had to buy one hundred and twenty five Ak forty sevens, 132 00:08:32,679 --> 00:08:35,560 Speaker 1: and the Chinese you go through this ritual, and at 133 00:08:35,600 --> 00:08:37,199 Speaker 1: the end of it, they said, Jack will give you 134 00:08:37,440 --> 00:08:40,480 Speaker 1: the AK forty sevens one sixty five, which was lower 135 00:08:40,520 --> 00:08:43,079 Speaker 1: than the market prices. And I said, this is very great. 136 00:08:43,160 --> 00:08:45,240 Speaker 1: You know, I really appreciate why you're doing it. Said, well, 137 00:08:45,440 --> 00:08:47,680 Speaker 1: you know, we like the fact that you're punching into Russians. 138 00:08:48,400 --> 00:08:51,760 Speaker 1: I'm just saying that there's a deep seat at unease, 139 00:08:52,040 --> 00:08:54,400 Speaker 1: and this is a marriage of convenience. If you look 140 00:08:54,440 --> 00:08:57,040 Speaker 1: at start, the Russia and China look at each other's 141 00:08:57,480 --> 00:08:59,320 Speaker 1: with join this side. So I think we have to 142 00:08:59,360 --> 00:09:03,959 Speaker 1: be mindful of the tactical relationship, but I don't want 143 00:09:03,960 --> 00:09:06,280 Speaker 1: to make it bigger than I think it is. And 144 00:09:06,440 --> 00:09:10,960 Speaker 1: do you think there are grounds for trying to create 145 00:09:11,000 --> 00:09:14,920 Speaker 1: a positive relationship with Russia? You mentioned that no reason 146 00:09:15,000 --> 00:09:18,160 Speaker 1: they shouldn't be potentially or ally. Do you think that's 147 00:09:18,240 --> 00:09:21,880 Speaker 1: plausible and that Putin could accept that kind of relationship. 148 00:09:22,640 --> 00:09:27,040 Speaker 1: I actually been an advocate for resetting, but I lived 149 00:09:27,040 --> 00:09:29,559 Speaker 1: in Argentina for a while. I was the station chief 150 00:09:29,600 --> 00:09:31,800 Speaker 1: down there, and they hit the tango, and there's the 151 00:09:31,840 --> 00:09:36,760 Speaker 1: old supprection takes to the tango. So President Biden may 152 00:09:36,840 --> 00:09:40,040 Speaker 1: want the reset, but it's like the tango, you need 153 00:09:40,080 --> 00:09:43,920 Speaker 1: another partner. And he has not demonstrated the sincerity about 154 00:09:43,920 --> 00:09:47,360 Speaker 1: a reset. He has a strategy, and there's another dimension, 155 00:09:47,400 --> 00:09:49,920 Speaker 1: which I know you're familiar with, and it's the hybrid strategy. 156 00:09:49,960 --> 00:09:54,520 Speaker 1: They have a military political strategy by their chiefest Staff Charismov, 157 00:09:55,200 --> 00:09:59,360 Speaker 1: in which it says you use political activities to weaken 158 00:09:59,480 --> 00:10:02,760 Speaker 1: your enemy, and he has engaged in this. So I 159 00:10:02,800 --> 00:10:07,560 Speaker 1: don't see any indication that other than smiling and saying 160 00:10:07,679 --> 00:10:09,920 Speaker 1: nice things from time to time, I haven't seen any 161 00:10:09,960 --> 00:10:14,800 Speaker 1: concrete steps that would give me optimism. The Russians are tough. 162 00:10:14,920 --> 00:10:17,320 Speaker 1: The charm offensive is not going to work with Putin. 163 00:10:17,400 --> 00:10:20,880 Speaker 1: It has to be real strength, real power, straight talk, 164 00:10:21,440 --> 00:10:25,080 Speaker 1: and maybe in private, given well we know of President 165 00:10:25,200 --> 00:10:28,760 Speaker 1: Biden's background and the people who surround him, what are 166 00:10:28,760 --> 00:10:32,719 Speaker 1: the odds that they could understand the real politico of 167 00:10:32,800 --> 00:10:36,800 Speaker 1: somebody like Putin. Well, we've got a long slow haul 168 00:10:36,920 --> 00:10:39,760 Speaker 1: here if they don't. I mean, everyone wants to focus 169 00:10:39,760 --> 00:10:44,880 Speaker 1: on China, and I get it, and China is a geopolitical, military, 170 00:10:45,160 --> 00:10:48,600 Speaker 1: economic threat the United States over the longer term. But 171 00:10:48,720 --> 00:10:51,560 Speaker 1: you want to talk, as you started on the intelligence 172 00:10:51,600 --> 00:10:55,040 Speaker 1: side of it, the most aggressive one in terms of 173 00:10:55,120 --> 00:11:00,400 Speaker 1: meddling political states is unquestionably the Russian So we're wild 174 00:11:00,440 --> 00:11:05,240 Speaker 1: to Biden administration come down on taking this threat and 175 00:11:05,320 --> 00:11:08,800 Speaker 1: taking it seriously now. So far, it's too early to 176 00:11:08,840 --> 00:11:11,240 Speaker 1: make a call. But there are no rules of the road, 177 00:11:11,280 --> 00:11:15,280 Speaker 1: as you know right now in cyber so there's no effort. 178 00:11:15,320 --> 00:11:18,160 Speaker 1: Ether by the last administration the current rue it's too early, 179 00:11:18,240 --> 00:11:22,240 Speaker 1: but to try and establish new rules of the road, 180 00:11:22,679 --> 00:11:25,840 Speaker 1: and if left unchecked, I think we're going to continue 181 00:11:25,840 --> 00:11:29,160 Speaker 1: to see them meddling in our political life. Right now, 182 00:11:29,200 --> 00:11:33,079 Speaker 1: from your perspective, the Russians have been the primary aggressors 183 00:11:33,800 --> 00:11:38,960 Speaker 1: in trying to both manipulate social media communication and to 184 00:11:39,080 --> 00:11:43,559 Speaker 1: some extent manipulate or penetrate our entire cyber system. Would 185 00:11:43,559 --> 00:11:45,760 Speaker 1: that be a fair comment. I think that's a fair comment. 186 00:11:45,800 --> 00:11:48,560 Speaker 1: I think both of them are very aggressive in collecting 187 00:11:48,559 --> 00:11:53,760 Speaker 1: intelligence right and this is not uncommon in any major 188 00:11:53,840 --> 00:11:56,079 Speaker 1: state and even minor states, So I think both sides 189 00:11:56,120 --> 00:11:59,040 Speaker 1: are doing as much as they can to collect The 190 00:11:59,120 --> 00:12:02,720 Speaker 1: Russians have been at it longer, and many technical operations 191 00:12:02,760 --> 00:12:06,200 Speaker 1: begin with human capabilities in human sources, and I'm saying 192 00:12:06,200 --> 00:12:09,199 Speaker 1: the Russians have been in this game longer, and I'm 193 00:12:09,240 --> 00:12:12,920 Speaker 1: prepared to make a modest wager that they're deeper into 194 00:12:12,960 --> 00:12:17,560 Speaker 1: our system combination of old moles and spies that have 195 00:12:17,640 --> 00:12:21,640 Speaker 1: provided bridges, and I think when we look at solar winds, 196 00:12:21,800 --> 00:12:23,680 Speaker 1: I do want to downplay because a really an important, 197 00:12:23,679 --> 00:12:28,480 Speaker 1: an egregious violation, but I think they're deeper into their system, 198 00:12:29,200 --> 00:12:32,320 Speaker 1: and the Chinese are very vigorous themselves and have been 199 00:12:32,400 --> 00:12:35,320 Speaker 1: in collecting. The big difference is it's hard to see 200 00:12:35,360 --> 00:12:39,559 Speaker 1: where the Chinese are actually meddling in our internal political process. 201 00:12:39,640 --> 00:12:42,720 Speaker 1: I think they're in a strategy whether we need cooperation. 202 00:12:42,800 --> 00:12:46,880 Speaker 1: If we started seeing them meddling in our internal affairs politically, 203 00:12:46,920 --> 00:12:50,200 Speaker 1: I think the reactions against China, which are growing every day, 204 00:12:50,200 --> 00:12:53,280 Speaker 1: will spike. So I think they've been more reticent. I 205 00:12:53,280 --> 00:12:57,160 Speaker 1: would say clearly the Russians are more active as part 206 00:12:57,200 --> 00:12:59,240 Speaker 1: of their strategies. I don't see it to find as 207 00:12:59,280 --> 00:13:02,240 Speaker 1: part of the Chinese strategy. It is part of the 208 00:13:02,320 --> 00:13:07,480 Speaker 1: official Russian strategy. You mentioned solar winds. Just for our listeners, 209 00:13:07,720 --> 00:13:10,840 Speaker 1: could you describe what solar winds was well. I think 210 00:13:10,840 --> 00:13:15,600 Speaker 1: this was a sophisticated assault by the Russians. They penetrated 211 00:13:15,760 --> 00:13:20,600 Speaker 1: into DHS, Treasury, State Department. I think they got into 212 00:13:21,400 --> 00:13:24,640 Speaker 1: I want to say, a thousand cables in State department alone, 213 00:13:24,679 --> 00:13:29,200 Speaker 1: and official cables involving the Pacific, not all of the 214 00:13:29,360 --> 00:13:32,559 Speaker 1: state cables, but three of the major areas. So they 215 00:13:32,600 --> 00:13:36,000 Speaker 1: found what I would call a weakness in the system 216 00:13:36,720 --> 00:13:40,400 Speaker 1: that was being used by many many companies and they 217 00:13:40,440 --> 00:13:43,400 Speaker 1: got into that system, and I'm just surprised at this 218 00:13:43,600 --> 00:13:48,880 Speaker 1: point in our cyber life that we don't have these 219 00:13:48,920 --> 00:13:51,600 Speaker 1: things capped off. I mean, we spent billions of dollars, 220 00:13:51,600 --> 00:13:54,960 Speaker 1: but in private sector and public sector, to have something 221 00:13:55,000 --> 00:13:59,839 Speaker 1: like this happened is profoundly troubling, given that they were 222 00:14:00,200 --> 00:14:02,400 Speaker 1: to do that. What would you say is the state 223 00:14:03,520 --> 00:14:08,480 Speaker 1: of the American defensive capabilities in cyber compared to the 224 00:14:08,520 --> 00:14:12,280 Speaker 1: threats against the problem of cyber from where I say, 225 00:14:12,400 --> 00:14:19,280 Speaker 1: it is a incredibly strong weapon offensively and has great 226 00:14:19,320 --> 00:14:26,680 Speaker 1: capabilities for destroying, undermining, and attacking. The capabilities to defend 227 00:14:26,800 --> 00:14:30,560 Speaker 1: are much more limited, particularly in democratic society where we 228 00:14:30,640 --> 00:14:32,800 Speaker 1: don't want the types of controls on that they have 229 00:14:32,880 --> 00:14:38,080 Speaker 1: in China and elsewhere. So our abilities, I mean, I 230 00:14:38,080 --> 00:14:40,480 Speaker 1: think we've been steadily trying to prove of them, and 231 00:14:40,560 --> 00:14:42,320 Speaker 1: I think we spend, as I said, a lot of money, 232 00:14:42,400 --> 00:14:44,920 Speaker 1: but you can't help but shake your head when you 233 00:14:44,960 --> 00:14:48,880 Speaker 1: see things like solar wind. So I think we're on 234 00:14:48,920 --> 00:14:51,960 Speaker 1: a weak side. I don't think we're going to be 235 00:14:52,000 --> 00:14:55,080 Speaker 1: able to develop a defense that stops. We should be 236 00:14:55,120 --> 00:14:58,240 Speaker 1: doing everything we can within reason, but I don't think 237 00:14:58,240 --> 00:15:01,320 Speaker 1: that's the solution of the problem. I think the solution 238 00:15:01,440 --> 00:15:04,080 Speaker 1: is we really need to find some ground rules and 239 00:15:04,160 --> 00:15:06,640 Speaker 1: what's acceptable and what's not acceptable, And I don't think 240 00:15:06,640 --> 00:15:10,400 Speaker 1: they exist. Don't you have to have some coersive ability 241 00:15:11,040 --> 00:15:13,280 Speaker 1: to enforce the ground rules if you could get an 242 00:15:13,320 --> 00:15:15,800 Speaker 1: agreement on them, well, I think to be more specific, 243 00:15:16,360 --> 00:15:18,080 Speaker 1: I think you really have to sit down with the 244 00:15:18,160 --> 00:15:22,320 Speaker 1: Russian intelligence and have a discussion about Look, let's not 245 00:15:22,360 --> 00:15:26,120 Speaker 1: talk about what we're doing to collect information, but there 246 00:15:26,120 --> 00:15:28,920 Speaker 1: are no rules to the road or the political interference. 247 00:15:29,320 --> 00:15:33,040 Speaker 1: And frankly, for these reasons, it's clear that you're doing this. 248 00:15:33,200 --> 00:15:35,800 Speaker 1: It has to stop, and what are the rules? And 249 00:15:35,880 --> 00:15:38,440 Speaker 1: if they say, you know, help with you, We're going 250 00:15:38,520 --> 00:15:40,800 Speaker 1: to go do whatever we want, then we have to 251 00:15:40,840 --> 00:15:43,960 Speaker 1: respond in kind. And no one wants to blite that bullet. 252 00:15:44,080 --> 00:15:46,720 Speaker 1: We're already in the second Cold War. I mean, people 253 00:15:46,760 --> 00:15:51,240 Speaker 1: don't recognize it because it's less visibly dramatic, but we 254 00:15:51,320 --> 00:15:54,840 Speaker 1: are now in a situation where once you start meddling 255 00:15:54,880 --> 00:15:57,040 Speaker 1: internal fairs United States, you're in a cold war and 256 00:15:57,080 --> 00:15:59,640 Speaker 1: you have to back it. All the policy makers are 257 00:15:59,680 --> 00:16:03,160 Speaker 1: going to have a really difficult time in deciding what 258 00:16:03,200 --> 00:16:05,520 Speaker 1: do you do, when do you do it when, as 259 00:16:05,560 --> 00:16:08,880 Speaker 1: you said, you need to muscle somebody and it has 260 00:16:08,880 --> 00:16:12,320 Speaker 1: to be very measured at springkmanship. I would hope that 261 00:16:12,360 --> 00:16:16,240 Speaker 1: we wouldn't be persuasive enough that we wouldn't get to it. 262 00:16:16,280 --> 00:16:18,200 Speaker 1: But if we don't, you can't let it go on. 263 00:16:34,120 --> 00:16:39,600 Speaker 1: From your perspective, do we have strong enough intelligence assets 264 00:16:39,600 --> 00:16:43,640 Speaker 1: that we could actually an effect enforce a deterrent strategy 265 00:16:44,120 --> 00:16:46,520 Speaker 1: or they asked me, I would reply in kind in 266 00:16:46,640 --> 00:16:52,360 Speaker 1: cyber and I think we have tremendous capabilities in the 267 00:16:52,440 --> 00:16:55,920 Speaker 1: cyber arena. I think our capabilities are great, but as 268 00:16:55,960 --> 00:16:58,600 Speaker 1: you know, we put a lot of weight on restraint. 269 00:16:58,720 --> 00:17:01,480 Speaker 1: We haven't used them. I don't have any problem punching back, 270 00:17:02,080 --> 00:17:04,359 Speaker 1: and I think I wouldn't recommend any full bar and 271 00:17:04,640 --> 00:17:06,800 Speaker 1: bring down the lights in Moscow, but I think he 272 00:17:06,800 --> 00:17:10,680 Speaker 1: would demonstrate. Look, he has internal problems. He really shouldn't 273 00:17:11,000 --> 00:17:14,000 Speaker 1: encourry just to create a situation where we would only 274 00:17:14,080 --> 00:17:16,000 Speaker 1: foster those. In the back of his mind, he may 275 00:17:16,119 --> 00:17:19,560 Speaker 1: think we're already doing that, which I don't believe to 276 00:17:19,560 --> 00:17:22,680 Speaker 1: be the case by any means, and his intelligence should 277 00:17:22,680 --> 00:17:24,919 Speaker 1: be good enough to tell them now the Americans aren't 278 00:17:25,000 --> 00:17:28,879 Speaker 1: doing that. But at this point his interest to start 279 00:17:28,960 --> 00:17:31,600 Speaker 1: this type of dust up, because I do think we 280 00:17:31,680 --> 00:17:34,760 Speaker 1: could do it, and I sure as he could. Hope 281 00:17:34,800 --> 00:17:38,399 Speaker 1: we don't get there, but we have the capability. I'm curious, 282 00:17:38,520 --> 00:17:42,600 Speaker 1: given all of these different factors, what led you to 283 00:17:42,600 --> 00:17:48,320 Speaker 1: decide that now was the time to write Spymaster's Prison. Well, 284 00:17:48,359 --> 00:17:49,879 Speaker 1: I actually started off. I was going to write a 285 00:17:49,920 --> 00:17:52,919 Speaker 1: book on my favorite Coal War heroes. Right. I started 286 00:17:52,920 --> 00:17:55,159 Speaker 1: to write the book, and it was just going to 287 00:17:55,240 --> 00:17:58,439 Speaker 1: be a fun ride with all the folks that preceded 288 00:17:58,480 --> 00:18:01,080 Speaker 1: me and how important they were. They the best generation 289 00:18:01,200 --> 00:18:05,680 Speaker 1: on that. And then, frankly, when the Russians intervened and 290 00:18:05,720 --> 00:18:08,080 Speaker 1: you began to see what they were doing, I decided, 291 00:18:08,440 --> 00:18:11,720 Speaker 1: you know, it's nice to touch on that, but maybe 292 00:18:11,760 --> 00:18:15,120 Speaker 1: you better start writing about people might not understand well 293 00:18:15,240 --> 00:18:18,720 Speaker 1: enough the intelligence history, the struggle that went to the 294 00:18:18,720 --> 00:18:22,240 Speaker 1: Cold War but never ended ended for a matter of months. 295 00:18:22,280 --> 00:18:25,600 Speaker 1: I was in Moscow in June of ninety one and 296 00:18:25,600 --> 00:18:29,359 Speaker 1: it fell in August of ninety one, no correlation my 297 00:18:29,480 --> 00:18:32,080 Speaker 1: presence being there. But at the end of the day, 298 00:18:32,080 --> 00:18:34,480 Speaker 1: you know, a year later, they were pretty well back, 299 00:18:34,480 --> 00:18:37,200 Speaker 1: and they even sent him member to Robert Hansen, who 300 00:18:37,200 --> 00:18:39,399 Speaker 1: your audience may not be familiar with. Robert Hanson was 301 00:18:39,440 --> 00:18:44,240 Speaker 1: the mole inside of the FBI, and when the Soviet 302 00:18:44,320 --> 00:18:47,639 Speaker 1: Union collapsed, KGB sent him a note saying, look, don't worry. 303 00:18:47,680 --> 00:18:50,439 Speaker 1: We've got you boxed in and no one's going to know. 304 00:18:50,560 --> 00:18:52,679 Speaker 1: We're going to keep taking care of you. They were 305 00:18:52,720 --> 00:18:54,480 Speaker 1: even up and running. But if you look at the 306 00:18:54,560 --> 00:18:57,439 Speaker 1: trarectory of Putin, he's getting tougher and tougher in the 307 00:18:57,440 --> 00:19:01,200 Speaker 1: intelligence business, right and more russ even more risk taking. 308 00:19:01,920 --> 00:19:04,800 Speaker 1: And I think that's an important point note, the risk taking. 309 00:19:05,400 --> 00:19:08,160 Speaker 1: And I think he's been successful in life because he's 310 00:19:08,200 --> 00:19:11,440 Speaker 1: taking risk at different points. Although the reason the big 311 00:19:11,480 --> 00:19:15,359 Speaker 1: shots put him in as president back in the post 312 00:19:15,400 --> 00:19:18,239 Speaker 1: y Elson period was they thought they could manipulate him, 313 00:19:18,280 --> 00:19:19,960 Speaker 1: and what they really were dealing with one of the 314 00:19:20,000 --> 00:19:22,399 Speaker 1: great manipulations in Russias. So he ended up with a 315 00:19:22,440 --> 00:19:25,960 Speaker 1: short end the stake. But he's a very cunning, smart 316 00:19:26,040 --> 00:19:29,720 Speaker 1: intelligence officer looking at things as an intelligence offer. Just 317 00:19:29,760 --> 00:19:33,920 Speaker 1: has a bad playbook sense that the guys who thought 318 00:19:33,920 --> 00:19:37,320 Speaker 1: they could control him really underestimated how tough he was 319 00:19:37,880 --> 00:19:41,199 Speaker 1: and how ruthless he was. I think that's right. I 320 00:19:41,320 --> 00:19:43,280 Speaker 1: think he knew what he wanted to do. He had 321 00:19:43,280 --> 00:19:45,200 Speaker 1: a clear vision. I mean, if you're just in there 322 00:19:45,280 --> 00:19:47,919 Speaker 1: to rank in some of the goodies from the power 323 00:19:48,080 --> 00:19:51,280 Speaker 1: and prestige, but he had a he was going to 324 00:19:51,320 --> 00:19:53,439 Speaker 1: convert Russia back to what he thought it should be. 325 00:19:53,760 --> 00:19:56,840 Speaker 1: So you don't normally see him as a visionary and 326 00:19:57,040 --> 00:19:59,680 Speaker 1: it's a narrow focus. Though. He wanted to restore a Russia, 327 00:19:59,680 --> 00:20:02,040 Speaker 1: and I think he should get some credit in that category. 328 00:20:02,160 --> 00:20:05,200 Speaker 1: But you know there are other ways to do it 329 00:20:05,280 --> 00:20:10,199 Speaker 1: than being hostile or comprotational with the West. Well, he 330 00:20:10,240 --> 00:20:13,000 Speaker 1: hasn't found that track yet. I want to thank you. 331 00:20:13,520 --> 00:20:15,760 Speaker 1: I'm delighted that you're staying active and that you are 332 00:20:16,280 --> 00:20:21,000 Speaker 1: continuing to keep your finger on the evolution of the 333 00:20:21,040 --> 00:20:24,399 Speaker 1: American role in the world, because it is changing both 334 00:20:24,400 --> 00:20:28,080 Speaker 1: by technology and the makeup of our adversaries. And I 335 00:20:28,119 --> 00:20:32,000 Speaker 1: think it requires people who come from a background of 336 00:20:32,080 --> 00:20:35,520 Speaker 1: understanding how real this is, who can then help educate 337 00:20:35,560 --> 00:20:38,119 Speaker 1: the rest of the American people. And I'm confident that 338 00:20:38,200 --> 00:20:40,480 Speaker 1: once we learn enough, we will in the end do 339 00:20:40,520 --> 00:20:42,440 Speaker 1: the right thing. But sometimes it takes us a little 340 00:20:42,440 --> 00:20:46,240 Speaker 1: while to learn enough. So I really appreciate your involvement 341 00:20:46,240 --> 00:20:49,000 Speaker 1: in your citizenship and I appreciate your taking the time 342 00:20:49,040 --> 00:20:51,399 Speaker 1: today to talk with us and thank you for an 343 00:20:51,440 --> 00:20:57,159 Speaker 1: including meter. Thank you to my guest, Jack Divine. You 344 00:20:57,200 --> 00:21:00,840 Speaker 1: can read more about his new book, Spymasters Prison The 345 00:21:00,960 --> 00:21:05,400 Speaker 1: Fight against Russian Aggression on our showpage at newtsworld dot com. 346 00:21:05,600 --> 00:21:08,760 Speaker 1: NEWT World is produced by Gingwiche three sixty and iHeartMedia. 347 00:21:09,080 --> 00:21:13,080 Speaker 1: Our executive producer is Debbie Myers, our producer is Garnsey Sloan, 348 00:21:13,440 --> 00:21:16,840 Speaker 1: and our researcher is Rachel Peterson. The artwork for the 349 00:21:16,840 --> 00:21:20,560 Speaker 1: show was created by Steve Pennelly. Special thanks to the 350 00:21:20,560 --> 00:21:24,480 Speaker 1: team at Gingridge three sixty. If you've been enjoying Newtsworld, 351 00:21:24,800 --> 00:21:27,440 Speaker 1: I hope you'll go to Apple Podcast and both rate 352 00:21:27,520 --> 00:21:30,280 Speaker 1: us with five stars and give us a review so 353 00:21:30,400 --> 00:21:33,680 Speaker 1: others can learn what it's all about. Right now, listeners 354 00:21:33,680 --> 00:21:36,679 Speaker 1: of Newtsworld can sign up for my three free weekly 355 00:21:36,720 --> 00:21:41,520 Speaker 1: columns at Gingwish three sixty dot com slash newsletter. I'm 356 00:21:41,600 --> 00:21:43,440 Speaker 1: newt Gingrich. This is Newtworld.