1 00:00:00,720 --> 00:00:04,840 Speaker 1: Family Secrets is a production of I Heart Radio. This 2 00:00:04,880 --> 00:00:09,600 Speaker 1: episode contains descriptions of sexual assault. Listener discretion as advised. 3 00:00:13,920 --> 00:00:16,600 Speaker 1: The morning after I confronted my grandfather, I was home 4 00:00:16,640 --> 00:00:20,800 Speaker 1: alone at my parents house, standing in the kitchen. Early 5 00:00:20,840 --> 00:00:23,360 Speaker 1: summer light streamed in through the window over the sink. 6 00:00:24,520 --> 00:00:27,080 Speaker 1: I could see the old tire swing, its rope now free, 7 00:00:27,080 --> 00:00:32,199 Speaker 1: and then starting to rap. The phone rang. There were 8 00:00:32,200 --> 00:00:34,640 Speaker 1: no words when I picked up, only his labor breathing. 9 00:00:35,600 --> 00:00:38,479 Speaker 1: He'd done this before, calling the house and just breathing 10 00:00:38,479 --> 00:00:43,520 Speaker 1: when he heard me pick up. Hello, I said hello. 11 00:00:44,920 --> 00:00:48,280 Speaker 1: I was ready to hang up, but this time he spoke. 12 00:00:49,880 --> 00:00:53,400 Speaker 1: I'm an old man, he said, I'm going to be 13 00:00:53,440 --> 00:00:56,600 Speaker 1: dead soon. I need your forgiveness to go to heaven. 14 00:00:57,920 --> 00:01:02,360 Speaker 1: Do you forgive me? I remember the phone ringing. I 15 00:01:02,360 --> 00:01:04,960 Speaker 1: remember the light through the window and the black plastic 16 00:01:05,000 --> 00:01:08,640 Speaker 1: receiver smooth in my palm. I remember the sound of 17 00:01:08,680 --> 00:01:12,440 Speaker 1: his voice wavery and grap and old, and the way 18 00:01:12,480 --> 00:01:14,800 Speaker 1: my skin pricked and my heart started to hear it. 19 00:01:15,720 --> 00:01:19,680 Speaker 1: I remember his question, I have no memory of how 20 00:01:19,760 --> 00:01:27,160 Speaker 1: I answered him. That's Alex Marzano Lesnovitch. They are a memorist, 21 00:01:27,480 --> 00:01:30,280 Speaker 1: author of the lambeda award winning the Fact of a 22 00:01:30,360 --> 00:01:36,080 Speaker 1: Body and assistant professor at Bowdon College. Alex's story is 23 00:01:36,080 --> 00:01:39,720 Speaker 1: a braided one, each strand weaving around the other to 24 00:01:39,840 --> 00:01:43,560 Speaker 1: make something stronger than its parts, a strength that comes 25 00:01:43,600 --> 00:01:48,600 Speaker 1: from looking closely, even when looking is scary, especially when 26 00:01:48,640 --> 00:01:52,000 Speaker 1: looking is scary. I'd call this a story that is 27 00:01:52,000 --> 00:01:56,160 Speaker 1: the triumph of spirit and intellect over silence and secrets. 28 00:02:07,920 --> 00:02:11,800 Speaker 1: I'm Danny Shapiro, and this is family secrets, the secrets 29 00:02:11,800 --> 00:02:14,239 Speaker 1: that are kept from us, the secrets we keep from others, 30 00:02:14,800 --> 00:02:21,400 Speaker 1: and the secrets we keep from ourselves. I grew up 31 00:02:21,400 --> 00:02:23,679 Speaker 1: in New Jersey. It was a bedroom community for New York. 32 00:02:25,480 --> 00:02:28,120 Speaker 1: All around us there were these these markers of people 33 00:02:28,160 --> 00:02:30,080 Speaker 1: trying to make a new story over the one that 34 00:02:30,120 --> 00:02:31,720 Speaker 1: they had grown up in, over the one they had 35 00:02:31,800 --> 00:02:35,600 Speaker 1: left behind. So I remember when my parents brought home 36 00:02:36,360 --> 00:02:39,240 Speaker 1: matching cadillacs. We had this house that was kind of 37 00:02:39,280 --> 00:02:43,000 Speaker 1: falling down around us that they forever rebuilding. They had 38 00:02:43,000 --> 00:02:45,400 Speaker 1: bought it really cheaply when the family who had lived 39 00:02:45,400 --> 00:02:48,000 Speaker 1: in it prior had moved out, and they had moved 40 00:02:48,000 --> 00:02:51,360 Speaker 1: out because the rumor had it of an accompted murder. 41 00:02:52,200 --> 00:02:55,639 Speaker 1: We moved in and they sat about trying to remake it, 42 00:02:56,000 --> 00:02:59,240 Speaker 1: and interestingly, I think trying to remake it in ways 43 00:02:59,280 --> 00:03:03,240 Speaker 1: that sometimes looked older. So my father, for example, had 44 00:03:03,280 --> 00:03:06,399 Speaker 1: these Victorian flourishes added to the house, to the woodwork, 45 00:03:07,320 --> 00:03:10,680 Speaker 1: even though they weren't part of it originally. And so 46 00:03:10,720 --> 00:03:14,520 Speaker 1: it was this landscape of remaking, a reinvention of the 47 00:03:14,560 --> 00:03:18,160 Speaker 1: idea that it was possible to reinvent oneself and get 48 00:03:18,200 --> 00:03:20,959 Speaker 1: away from the past. And that was a really heavy 49 00:03:21,040 --> 00:03:24,600 Speaker 1: and beautiful idea as a kid, right like you're living 50 00:03:24,600 --> 00:03:27,360 Speaker 1: in some ways in a grand story. There were always 51 00:03:27,919 --> 00:03:30,400 Speaker 1: living in a mythology of like the big house and 52 00:03:30,440 --> 00:03:34,160 Speaker 1: the big family and the big parties, and there was 53 00:03:34,200 --> 00:03:37,160 Speaker 1: real beauty to that, and there was real complexity. Mm hmm. 54 00:03:38,000 --> 00:03:42,080 Speaker 1: I love the idea of these Victorian flourishes and the 55 00:03:42,160 --> 00:03:45,640 Speaker 1: idea of remaking a house but remaking it to look 56 00:03:45,680 --> 00:03:50,520 Speaker 1: older rather than classically remaking a house to modernize it. 57 00:03:50,520 --> 00:03:55,000 Speaker 1: It's almost like somehow that feels very metaphorical in terms 58 00:03:55,000 --> 00:03:57,560 Speaker 1: of your story itself, because it's like, I don't know, 59 00:03:57,640 --> 00:04:00,720 Speaker 1: somehow attaching pieces of history or I'm just sort of 60 00:04:00,720 --> 00:04:03,480 Speaker 1: picturing it like a Wes Anderson movie. I mean, I 61 00:04:03,520 --> 00:04:05,520 Speaker 1: gotta say it felt very left Anderson. And when I 62 00:04:05,560 --> 00:04:08,440 Speaker 1: look at it now and then remember when they were 63 00:04:08,440 --> 00:04:12,520 Speaker 1: redoing the hallway, for example, they had all us kids 64 00:04:13,040 --> 00:04:15,800 Speaker 1: pick out things that were important to us and place 65 00:04:15,880 --> 00:04:19,640 Speaker 1: them in the framework of the house, and then we 66 00:04:19,720 --> 00:04:22,440 Speaker 1: would work with boarded back up. So it was all 67 00:04:22,440 --> 00:04:24,480 Speaker 1: with this idea of we will live, and we will 68 00:04:24,520 --> 00:04:27,680 Speaker 1: live through history. We will be a story in the future. 69 00:04:28,080 --> 00:04:31,360 Speaker 1: There will be some family down the line that uncovers 70 00:04:31,440 --> 00:04:34,440 Speaker 1: us and wonders about who we are. If there is, 71 00:04:34,760 --> 00:04:36,719 Speaker 1: they may be a bit sad to discover my goofy 72 00:04:36,800 --> 00:04:43,120 Speaker 1: ring that was my prized possession of. Could there possibly 73 00:04:43,160 --> 00:04:46,640 Speaker 1: be a more apt and beautiful metaphor than a child's 74 00:04:46,760 --> 00:04:50,960 Speaker 1: goofy ring? A prized possession buried into the framework of 75 00:04:51,000 --> 00:04:57,200 Speaker 1: the house. Alex's family's home contains many secrets that are 76 00:04:57,279 --> 00:05:02,359 Speaker 1: quite the opposite of childhood innocence. Many years later, Alex 77 00:05:02,360 --> 00:05:04,840 Speaker 1: and their mother have a conversation when there's a good 78 00:05:04,920 --> 00:05:07,719 Speaker 1: chance the house is going to be raised torn down 79 00:05:07,800 --> 00:05:11,240 Speaker 1: to make way for a new development. Alex says they'd 80 00:05:11,240 --> 00:05:14,640 Speaker 1: like to drive the bulldozer, and their mother says, no, 81 00:05:15,320 --> 00:05:19,600 Speaker 1: I get to do that. Tell me about your mother, 82 00:05:20,200 --> 00:05:23,159 Speaker 1: the mother that you grew up with, not your mother today. 83 00:05:23,640 --> 00:05:26,320 Speaker 1: I mean, I have so much respect for everything she 84 00:05:26,400 --> 00:05:29,159 Speaker 1: pulls off. Her parents didn't want her to go to college. 85 00:05:29,680 --> 00:05:31,640 Speaker 1: They didn't feel a woman had to go to college, 86 00:05:32,279 --> 00:05:34,760 Speaker 1: so she would sneak out to go to college, even 87 00:05:34,800 --> 00:05:36,840 Speaker 1: though she was living with them. She went to college secretly. 88 00:05:36,880 --> 00:05:40,279 Speaker 1: They didn't even know until unmost she graduated. She'd almost 89 00:05:40,279 --> 00:05:43,680 Speaker 1: graduated when they found out. And she continued this kind 90 00:05:43,720 --> 00:05:47,000 Speaker 1: of determination. I think my my love of words and 91 00:05:47,120 --> 00:05:50,000 Speaker 1: my love of stories comes from her. She taught me 92 00:05:50,040 --> 00:05:52,680 Speaker 1: to read well before I went to kindergarten, you know, 93 00:05:52,720 --> 00:05:55,760 Speaker 1: well before we were learning to read a bit of 94 00:05:55,760 --> 00:06:00,000 Speaker 1: a I think we're both quite stubborn and so um. 95 00:06:00,040 --> 00:06:02,400 Speaker 1: I apparently didn't speak to her the first day of 96 00:06:02,480 --> 00:06:05,040 Speaker 1: kindergarten because I came home very upset that she had 97 00:06:05,080 --> 00:06:07,680 Speaker 1: never told me that there were capital letters. She only 98 00:06:07,720 --> 00:06:10,120 Speaker 1: taught me the lower case letters, and I was so upset. 99 00:06:10,520 --> 00:06:12,000 Speaker 1: Aar and I said, you never told me there were 100 00:06:12,000 --> 00:06:15,239 Speaker 1: big ones. But I think that way she made it fun, 101 00:06:15,520 --> 00:06:18,880 Speaker 1: you know, she made learning a real adventure for us, 102 00:06:19,120 --> 00:06:23,159 Speaker 1: and UM, I suspect she was quite bored at home 103 00:06:23,200 --> 00:06:25,880 Speaker 1: with us a bit. She loved it. But also when 104 00:06:25,920 --> 00:06:28,000 Speaker 1: I look back now, I sort of sense a mind 105 00:06:28,520 --> 00:06:31,559 Speaker 1: straining for like wanting to be out in the world 106 00:06:31,640 --> 00:06:36,720 Speaker 1: tackling things, because she did teach us so much and 107 00:06:36,839 --> 00:06:40,160 Speaker 1: also had some fun with her power as someone who 108 00:06:40,240 --> 00:06:43,760 Speaker 1: could teach us. So, for example, she taught us the 109 00:06:43,800 --> 00:06:48,839 Speaker 1: word candy meant as a matter of definition, bananas dipped 110 00:06:48,839 --> 00:06:52,480 Speaker 1: and playing yogurt, and so I vividly remember the first 111 00:06:52,480 --> 00:06:54,560 Speaker 1: time I went to like a classmates house and the 112 00:06:55,200 --> 00:06:57,960 Speaker 1: classmates mothers that, would you like some candy? And I 113 00:06:58,040 --> 00:07:01,240 Speaker 1: was like, no, not really, I don't really like candy, 114 00:07:02,520 --> 00:07:05,279 Speaker 1: and the expression on my classmates spaces, you know, and 115 00:07:05,320 --> 00:07:08,440 Speaker 1: then realizing, oh, but that was that was quite a 116 00:07:08,480 --> 00:07:11,080 Speaker 1: powerful moment because I realized, all right, like words or 117 00:07:11,120 --> 00:07:13,800 Speaker 1: what we say they are, this is all a system 118 00:07:13,840 --> 00:07:17,080 Speaker 1: of meaning that we are constantly making um. And then 119 00:07:17,120 --> 00:07:20,920 Speaker 1: when I was I think about twelve, maybe younger, she 120 00:07:20,960 --> 00:07:24,200 Speaker 1: went to law school and by that point there were 121 00:07:24,200 --> 00:07:28,280 Speaker 1: four of us kids at home, and she went full 122 00:07:28,280 --> 00:07:31,720 Speaker 1: time to law school during the day and brought us 123 00:07:31,760 --> 00:07:35,520 Speaker 1: with her sometimes, and so I kind of grew up, 124 00:07:35,680 --> 00:07:37,840 Speaker 1: you know, as a kid, the things that make impressions 125 00:07:37,840 --> 00:07:40,240 Speaker 1: on you are not what would seem right size to 126 00:07:40,280 --> 00:07:43,400 Speaker 1: an adult, but rather you know the things that that 127 00:07:43,600 --> 00:07:45,520 Speaker 1: stand out is like themb text in your world or 128 00:07:45,560 --> 00:07:47,760 Speaker 1: in your landscape, or shift your understanding of the world. 129 00:07:48,480 --> 00:07:50,800 Speaker 1: And for me, it was a couple of things. Being 130 00:07:50,800 --> 00:07:53,400 Speaker 1: at law school with her was the first time I 131 00:07:53,440 --> 00:07:56,160 Speaker 1: ever saw a woman in a suit and understood that 132 00:07:56,200 --> 00:07:58,720 Speaker 1: a woman could be a professor, that a woman could 133 00:07:58,720 --> 00:08:01,360 Speaker 1: teach her, the woman could have this session of authority. 134 00:08:02,000 --> 00:08:05,000 Speaker 1: It was also the first time I encountered macaroni and 135 00:08:05,040 --> 00:08:07,120 Speaker 1: cheese the way the rest of the world, as the 136 00:08:07,120 --> 00:08:08,840 Speaker 1: rest of the country makes it, and not the way 137 00:08:08,880 --> 00:08:11,080 Speaker 1: my family makes it, which is a very distinctive way. 138 00:08:11,800 --> 00:08:15,040 Speaker 1: And how's that after the banana dipped in yogurt? I 139 00:08:15,040 --> 00:08:17,000 Speaker 1: need to know? You know, the way we grew up 140 00:08:17,000 --> 00:08:19,000 Speaker 1: with mac and cheese was just like you make it 141 00:08:19,080 --> 00:08:21,360 Speaker 1: so that the pasta is like fresh off the stove, 142 00:08:21,440 --> 00:08:24,360 Speaker 1: and you dump it into a metal bowl, and my 143 00:08:24,440 --> 00:08:28,400 Speaker 1: mom would yell, stir, and all as kids would like 144 00:08:28,480 --> 00:08:32,400 Speaker 1: be positioned around the bowl, and one of us would 145 00:08:32,440 --> 00:08:34,640 Speaker 1: dump in a load of shredded cheese, and another world 146 00:08:34,640 --> 00:08:37,840 Speaker 1: would dump in some milk, and another would would would 147 00:08:37,880 --> 00:08:39,520 Speaker 1: dump in a little bit of I can't believe it's 148 00:08:39,559 --> 00:08:42,240 Speaker 1: not butter, and all you would do was just stir madly. 149 00:08:43,360 --> 00:08:45,680 Speaker 1: And then mostly it was cheese. It was like almost 150 00:08:45,679 --> 00:08:47,959 Speaker 1: equal parts macaroni and cheese. So it's just like a 151 00:08:48,160 --> 00:08:51,760 Speaker 1: melted cheese extravagant that it was like goodlier than pizza. 152 00:08:52,040 --> 00:08:55,040 Speaker 1: But it definitely wasn't that like creamy mac and cheese 153 00:08:55,080 --> 00:08:57,840 Speaker 1: sauce the people make. So we got to the cafeteria 154 00:08:57,880 --> 00:09:02,000 Speaker 1: and I just remember being stunned, just utterly done by 155 00:09:02,000 --> 00:09:07,720 Speaker 1: whatever the substance was. So those two and then sitting 156 00:09:07,920 --> 00:09:11,000 Speaker 1: in one of her law school classes and having a 157 00:09:11,080 --> 00:09:15,320 Speaker 1: professor talk about a hypothetical and call it that a hypothetical, 158 00:09:16,120 --> 00:09:18,800 Speaker 1: which is how law is taught, which is how you 159 00:09:18,840 --> 00:09:20,840 Speaker 1: know I was taught, well, eventually when I went to 160 00:09:20,880 --> 00:09:24,240 Speaker 1: law school, where you spin out a second alternate facts 161 00:09:24,240 --> 00:09:26,480 Speaker 1: and you talk about the way president in case law 162 00:09:26,520 --> 00:09:29,320 Speaker 1: could apply to those tacts. But I remember sitting in 163 00:09:29,320 --> 00:09:32,960 Speaker 1: that classroom and feeling like, you know, they just said 164 00:09:32,960 --> 00:09:35,480 Speaker 1: this fancy word, but I know what that is. That's 165 00:09:35,480 --> 00:09:39,640 Speaker 1: a story hypothetical as a story, And so it was 166 00:09:39,640 --> 00:09:43,280 Speaker 1: really the space of storytelling. And she would read to us, 167 00:09:43,320 --> 00:09:46,000 Speaker 1: She read to us every every night, so many stories, 168 00:09:46,800 --> 00:09:50,600 Speaker 1: and you know, gave me adult books the minute I 169 00:09:50,640 --> 00:09:55,800 Speaker 1: expressed interest in something with chapters. You know, I think she, uh, 170 00:09:56,120 --> 00:10:00,160 Speaker 1: she worked really hard to we make the word all 171 00:10:00,280 --> 00:10:04,320 Speaker 1: that she wanted to be in a world of ideas 172 00:10:04,360 --> 00:10:08,080 Speaker 1: and a world of words that she had been very 173 00:10:08,120 --> 00:10:11,080 Speaker 1: forcefully told was not to be hers when she was 174 00:10:11,120 --> 00:10:14,000 Speaker 1: a child and when she was a young adult. And 175 00:10:14,080 --> 00:10:17,480 Speaker 1: so I think she really made the world she wanted 176 00:10:17,520 --> 00:10:20,120 Speaker 1: to be in and made a world for herself to enter. 177 00:10:20,920 --> 00:10:24,079 Speaker 1: And what about your father. My dad was a man 178 00:10:24,160 --> 00:10:27,080 Speaker 1: of dreams. He wears his dreams on his sleeve. My 179 00:10:27,160 --> 00:10:30,760 Speaker 1: mother wears her dreams more privately. I didn't talk about them, 180 00:10:30,760 --> 00:10:33,040 Speaker 1: but my dad wears his dreams and his stories on 181 00:10:33,120 --> 00:10:36,400 Speaker 1: his sleeve. He is a very enthusiastic man. He's always 182 00:10:36,400 --> 00:10:39,600 Speaker 1: the life of the party, and um wants to be 183 00:10:39,600 --> 00:10:43,320 Speaker 1: the center of attention. And he's very much a story teller. 184 00:10:44,200 --> 00:10:47,840 Speaker 1: And um, he too was a lawyer, and he would 185 00:10:48,000 --> 00:10:51,640 Speaker 1: often tell us stories about his childhood, whereas my mother 186 00:10:51,720 --> 00:10:54,520 Speaker 1: never did. But he would always tell stories about his childhood, 187 00:10:54,840 --> 00:10:57,480 Speaker 1: and he was always falling in love with something new, 188 00:10:57,840 --> 00:11:03,240 Speaker 1: and very enthusiastic. I'm a very enthusiastic person. I would 189 00:11:03,280 --> 00:11:07,080 Speaker 1: probably trace that back to him. So when I was 190 00:11:07,320 --> 00:11:10,199 Speaker 1: a kid, you know, when he fell in love with opera, 191 00:11:10,320 --> 00:11:12,240 Speaker 1: it wasn't just that he fell in love with opera, 192 00:11:12,400 --> 00:11:14,960 Speaker 1: it was at suddenly he was periodically wearing a tux 193 00:11:15,160 --> 00:11:17,720 Speaker 1: and there was opera always playing through the house, and 194 00:11:18,200 --> 00:11:21,640 Speaker 1: there were posters about opera and whatnot. Then when he 195 00:11:21,679 --> 00:11:24,320 Speaker 1: fell in love with country music, there was Garth Brooks 196 00:11:24,320 --> 00:11:26,079 Speaker 1: all the time through the house, and he bought the 197 00:11:26,160 --> 00:11:29,040 Speaker 1: tractor for the backyard, and all of a sudden he 198 00:11:29,080 --> 00:11:32,760 Speaker 1: had big belt buckles and um, cowboy boots, even though 199 00:11:32,800 --> 00:11:36,480 Speaker 1: we lived in New Jersey. Then Cole Porter and so 200 00:11:37,080 --> 00:11:40,440 Speaker 1: literally a white dinner jacket, Cole Porter playing through the 201 00:11:40,440 --> 00:11:42,720 Speaker 1: house at all times. And of course the cuisine would shift, 202 00:11:43,960 --> 00:11:46,120 Speaker 1: the cuisine of the house would shift. Um. So I 203 00:11:46,160 --> 00:11:51,600 Speaker 1: think it's like ideay invention and of chasing maybe multiple 204 00:11:51,640 --> 00:12:05,040 Speaker 1: lives within a lifetime. We'll be right back within this 205 00:12:05,160 --> 00:12:08,680 Speaker 1: family life filled with books and words and music and magic. 206 00:12:09,440 --> 00:12:12,959 Speaker 1: Alex and their three siblings, the four of them form 207 00:12:13,040 --> 00:12:18,160 Speaker 1: a neat and tidy family. Everything fits together snugly, exactly right. 208 00:12:18,880 --> 00:12:21,920 Speaker 1: They sit around the dining room table, the six of them, 209 00:12:21,920 --> 00:12:25,680 Speaker 1: a table built for a family exactly this size, no more, 210 00:12:26,160 --> 00:12:31,960 Speaker 1: no fewer. But something shimmers in the air, something not 211 00:12:32,240 --> 00:12:36,280 Speaker 1: quite right. Alex can't put their finger on it. It's 212 00:12:36,360 --> 00:12:40,040 Speaker 1: just a feeling. But then one day, while they and 213 00:12:40,080 --> 00:12:43,760 Speaker 1: their twin brother Andy are outside playing, Alex is witnessed 214 00:12:43,760 --> 00:12:47,280 Speaker 1: to one of those indelible moments that shifts their understanding 215 00:12:47,280 --> 00:12:51,080 Speaker 1: of their family. I think in child could be often 216 00:12:51,120 --> 00:12:53,960 Speaker 1: remember those moments that shift our understanding of the world, 217 00:12:54,800 --> 00:12:58,400 Speaker 1: that opened up a new layer. And for me, one 218 00:12:58,440 --> 00:13:02,160 Speaker 1: of these moments was the house was built in such 219 00:13:02,160 --> 00:13:05,320 Speaker 1: a way that there was a window in my parents 220 00:13:05,520 --> 00:13:08,880 Speaker 1: bedroom that you could look out in their bedrooms in 221 00:13:08,880 --> 00:13:11,000 Speaker 1: the second floor, and you could look at that window 222 00:13:11,040 --> 00:13:13,199 Speaker 1: and you would see the whole landscape of the backyard. 223 00:13:13,880 --> 00:13:16,600 Speaker 1: And there was a tire swing back in the yard 224 00:13:17,080 --> 00:13:21,040 Speaker 1: hanging from this the old tree, and we would plan 225 00:13:21,120 --> 00:13:24,080 Speaker 1: on it all the time. But there was this day 226 00:13:24,080 --> 00:13:27,920 Speaker 1: when my brother flung himself through that tire swing and 227 00:13:28,120 --> 00:13:31,480 Speaker 1: his body went limp because he was playing. I mean 228 00:13:31,480 --> 00:13:34,040 Speaker 1: I was standing not far from him. I knew he 229 00:13:34,080 --> 00:13:35,960 Speaker 1: was playing. That's what we were doing. He was just 230 00:13:36,440 --> 00:13:41,360 Speaker 1: going to limp and play. But my mother came running 231 00:13:41,400 --> 00:13:45,080 Speaker 1: from the house barefoot, her bathroom trailing behind, you know, 232 00:13:45,280 --> 00:13:49,000 Speaker 1: the ties of her bathroom trailing behind her, just wailing, 233 00:13:50,559 --> 00:13:55,680 Speaker 1: and my dad caught her. He caught her and then 234 00:13:55,720 --> 00:14:00,240 Speaker 1: steadied her, and she kind of flung herself into his arms. 235 00:14:00,320 --> 00:14:03,880 Speaker 1: And it made such an impression for so many reasons. One, 236 00:14:05,559 --> 00:14:07,600 Speaker 1: I had really never seen my mother cry. My mother 237 00:14:07,679 --> 00:14:14,320 Speaker 1: was always very composed, very controlled, very polished. And my 238 00:14:14,400 --> 00:14:17,600 Speaker 1: father was the emotional one. I think now we would 239 00:14:17,600 --> 00:14:21,080 Speaker 1: say that he was suffering from a pretty profound depression 240 00:14:21,120 --> 00:14:24,160 Speaker 1: at the time, but he was the one who I 241 00:14:24,200 --> 00:14:26,200 Speaker 1: was used to seeing pride. I had never seen her 242 00:14:27,000 --> 00:14:30,000 Speaker 1: break apart that way. And of course there were things 243 00:14:30,040 --> 00:14:33,040 Speaker 1: that I barely remembered but must have retained sort of 244 00:14:33,040 --> 00:14:35,280 Speaker 1: an imprint on my memory of the fact that my 245 00:14:35,320 --> 00:14:37,600 Speaker 1: brother had been very sick when we were growing up. 246 00:14:38,280 --> 00:14:43,720 Speaker 1: He and I were born three months premature, and we 247 00:14:43,720 --> 00:14:47,280 Speaker 1: were triplets, and my sister had died when we were 248 00:14:47,360 --> 00:14:51,520 Speaker 1: several months old. And it was one of those things 249 00:14:51,520 --> 00:14:53,600 Speaker 1: that exists in the shadow of your mind as a child, 250 00:14:53,680 --> 00:14:55,400 Speaker 1: where sort of you know, but you don't know, but 251 00:14:55,480 --> 00:14:57,400 Speaker 1: you know, but you don't know. But certainly no one 252 00:14:57,520 --> 00:15:01,480 Speaker 1: ever ever ever spoke of it, nor did they speak 253 00:15:01,600 --> 00:15:04,680 Speaker 1: of how sick my brother had been as a kid. 254 00:15:04,720 --> 00:15:07,800 Speaker 1: He was in three commas before we were seven, And 255 00:15:07,880 --> 00:15:10,400 Speaker 1: I do because I look back and think about it. 256 00:15:11,000 --> 00:15:14,040 Speaker 1: There are all these moments where we would be sent 257 00:15:14,080 --> 00:15:16,480 Speaker 1: off to relatives or someone would appear at the house 258 00:15:16,480 --> 00:15:18,320 Speaker 1: to take care of us, and he would be off 259 00:15:18,320 --> 00:15:20,360 Speaker 1: in the hospital. Again. They kept a bad pack for 260 00:15:20,400 --> 00:15:24,920 Speaker 1: the hospital at all times, and there were just many 261 00:15:24,960 --> 00:15:29,640 Speaker 1: moments when he was near death. But in that way 262 00:15:29,680 --> 00:15:34,000 Speaker 1: that my family sort of approached anything difficult with always 263 00:15:34,080 --> 00:15:36,440 Speaker 1: we would just never again speak avail. We would pretend 264 00:15:36,440 --> 00:15:39,680 Speaker 1: that it never happened, so it would sort of all 265 00:15:39,680 --> 00:15:43,400 Speaker 1: those incidents would kind of get It's not that they disappeared, 266 00:15:43,960 --> 00:15:46,480 Speaker 1: but they sort of disappeared in the landscape of my memory, 267 00:15:46,560 --> 00:15:49,880 Speaker 1: like they retained like this shadowy presence. And that moment 268 00:15:50,960 --> 00:15:54,320 Speaker 1: when she came running, I think it's certainly looking back, 269 00:15:54,360 --> 00:15:57,720 Speaker 1: the first time that I can recall realizing that they 270 00:15:57,720 --> 00:16:00,640 Speaker 1: were grappling with grief. But on it was something that 271 00:16:00,680 --> 00:16:04,080 Speaker 1: we never spoke about again. We never acknowledged, you know, 272 00:16:04,120 --> 00:16:07,480 Speaker 1: what had just happened was weird, but you certainly couldn't 273 00:16:07,480 --> 00:16:10,200 Speaker 1: say anything about it. But I think when I look 274 00:16:10,240 --> 00:16:12,600 Speaker 1: back and I try to look for the traces of 275 00:16:13,320 --> 00:16:16,560 Speaker 1: what made us right the way that I think often 276 00:16:16,600 --> 00:16:18,800 Speaker 1: with memory are often telling a story about what made 277 00:16:18,880 --> 00:16:21,640 Speaker 1: us what promis here. That's one of the places I 278 00:16:21,800 --> 00:16:24,760 Speaker 1: see that trace of grief showing up. I see the 279 00:16:24,800 --> 00:16:29,080 Speaker 1: residue of grief channel. Yeah, I'm so. I'm so interested 280 00:16:29,200 --> 00:16:37,160 Speaker 1: in that liminal, shadowy place where the things that we 281 00:16:37,920 --> 00:16:44,240 Speaker 1: know but can't allow ourselves to think live. And it's 282 00:16:44,320 --> 00:16:48,800 Speaker 1: shortly after the moment where your mother comes running out 283 00:16:48,840 --> 00:16:53,360 Speaker 1: of the house wailing that she actually tells you this 284 00:16:53,600 --> 00:16:59,720 Speaker 1: one time about the third triplet, Jacqueline. It seems like 285 00:16:59,720 --> 00:17:02,920 Speaker 1: it's the first time that you're given a name. And 286 00:17:03,240 --> 00:17:05,159 Speaker 1: one of the things that really struck me is that 287 00:17:05,200 --> 00:17:08,840 Speaker 1: you're right. I already knew you know that there was 288 00:17:08,880 --> 00:17:14,120 Speaker 1: this strange chore feeling that someone was missing. And that 289 00:17:14,200 --> 00:17:18,840 Speaker 1: speaks so much too, the ways that your family and 290 00:17:18,960 --> 00:17:23,000 Speaker 1: so many families, in an attempt to just move on 291 00:17:23,560 --> 00:17:30,359 Speaker 1: or have things be fine or better, will just push 292 00:17:30,480 --> 00:17:33,320 Speaker 1: something into a corner or under the rug where it 293 00:17:33,359 --> 00:17:36,800 Speaker 1: inevitably does not remain. I mean, eventually it does not remain, 294 00:17:37,359 --> 00:17:41,240 Speaker 1: but that that moment really struck me that way, thank you. Yeah, 295 00:17:41,400 --> 00:17:45,000 Speaker 1: I think absolutely, it inevitably does not remain And I 296 00:17:45,000 --> 00:17:49,160 Speaker 1: I think about that so often in teaching. I constantly 297 00:17:49,160 --> 00:17:52,560 Speaker 1: tell my students to pay attention to what's emerging, to 298 00:17:52,680 --> 00:17:55,800 Speaker 1: what's showing up, to what's poking through, to what's trying 299 00:17:55,840 --> 00:17:58,760 Speaker 1: to materialize, trying to make it self known and bring 300 00:17:58,800 --> 00:18:02,399 Speaker 1: itself into language. And I think we live in a 301 00:18:02,520 --> 00:18:06,439 Speaker 1: society where that's also such a major aspect. You know, 302 00:18:06,640 --> 00:18:08,560 Speaker 1: what is showing up that we don't talk about, what 303 00:18:08,640 --> 00:18:10,760 Speaker 1: is showing up that we're trying to pretend isn't there, 304 00:18:11,640 --> 00:18:14,800 Speaker 1: what wants to make itself known, And so much of 305 00:18:14,840 --> 00:18:17,919 Speaker 1: life is negotiating what we're willing to acknowledge versus what 306 00:18:18,040 --> 00:18:21,199 Speaker 1: lies beneath the surface. Yeah, I mean the tagline for 307 00:18:21,240 --> 00:18:23,720 Speaker 1: this show is the secrets that are kept from us, 308 00:18:23,720 --> 00:18:25,720 Speaker 1: the secrets we keep from others, and the secrets we 309 00:18:25,840 --> 00:18:32,640 Speaker 1: keep from ourselves. Yes, well said, but there's another very 310 00:18:32,680 --> 00:18:36,080 Speaker 1: different kind of massive secret also buried within the walls 311 00:18:36,080 --> 00:18:41,879 Speaker 1: of the house. Alex's grandfather, their mother's father sexually molested 312 00:18:41,920 --> 00:18:44,879 Speaker 1: both of them and their sister from the time they 313 00:18:44,920 --> 00:18:49,200 Speaker 1: were three years old. You know, like so many families. 314 00:18:49,960 --> 00:18:53,040 Speaker 1: Mine had a lot of hidden abuse in it. My 315 00:18:53,160 --> 00:18:57,480 Speaker 1: earliest memory of my grandfather of using me, I think 316 00:18:57,640 --> 00:19:00,440 Speaker 1: explace at age three. That's about what we can figure 317 00:19:00,480 --> 00:19:04,359 Speaker 1: out from where I remember the objects in his house being. 318 00:19:05,080 --> 00:19:09,000 Speaker 1: And it continued on until I was age eight, when 319 00:19:09,040 --> 00:19:12,920 Speaker 1: my parents found out about it because my sister had something. 320 00:19:13,080 --> 00:19:16,280 Speaker 1: She had money that they asked her work came from, 321 00:19:16,359 --> 00:19:19,040 Speaker 1: and she said, oh, my grandpa gave it to me 322 00:19:19,080 --> 00:19:21,360 Speaker 1: for sitting on his lap. And they started asking questions 323 00:19:21,400 --> 00:19:25,879 Speaker 1: and realized that we were all being abused by him, 324 00:19:26,240 --> 00:19:29,120 Speaker 1: All the assigned female births people in my family were 325 00:19:29,119 --> 00:19:32,479 Speaker 1: being abused by him, public kids, but at every stage 326 00:19:32,520 --> 00:19:35,840 Speaker 1: it was hidden, you know, the kids who were being abused. 327 00:19:35,880 --> 00:19:39,000 Speaker 1: We didn't talk about it with each other. My sister 328 00:19:39,080 --> 00:19:44,320 Speaker 1: and I we shared a room, and we certainly we're 329 00:19:44,320 --> 00:19:46,200 Speaker 1: in the room when the other one was being abused, 330 00:19:46,280 --> 00:19:48,520 Speaker 1: and so we certainly knew about it, but we never 331 00:19:48,600 --> 00:19:50,960 Speaker 1: spoke about it, at least not that I recall. I 332 00:19:51,000 --> 00:19:54,720 Speaker 1: have pretty strong memories from that whole time period, and 333 00:19:54,960 --> 00:19:59,000 Speaker 1: I don't recall us ever speaking of it. And when 334 00:19:59,000 --> 00:20:03,159 Speaker 1: they found out about it, what they said was, you 335 00:20:03,160 --> 00:20:07,040 Speaker 1: can never talk about this, And I think they believed 336 00:20:07,040 --> 00:20:09,720 Speaker 1: that they were protecting us. I think they believed, you 337 00:20:09,760 --> 00:20:11,520 Speaker 1: know what they what they tell me now is that 338 00:20:11,600 --> 00:20:16,680 Speaker 1: they were told by a psychologist they consulted that maybe 339 00:20:16,720 --> 00:20:19,359 Speaker 1: if they pretended that it had happened, it would go 340 00:20:19,400 --> 00:20:23,520 Speaker 1: away for us. There's so much of that kind of 341 00:20:24,560 --> 00:20:33,040 Speaker 1: well meaning but unbelievably poor, psychologically damaging advice that parents 342 00:20:33,080 --> 00:20:36,960 Speaker 1: got from medical professionals at a certain time, and you know, 343 00:20:37,040 --> 00:20:40,639 Speaker 1: in history that's not really that long ago. Yeah, I 344 00:20:41,080 --> 00:20:45,080 Speaker 1: hear constantly how common that was. Um. I will say, 345 00:20:45,520 --> 00:20:48,040 Speaker 1: the first five months of my book without in the world, 346 00:20:48,359 --> 00:20:51,560 Speaker 1: I got at least three emails a day from people 347 00:20:51,560 --> 00:20:53,840 Speaker 1: who have been abused. And I have never done a 348 00:20:53,880 --> 00:20:58,359 Speaker 1: reading without having someone tell me their story afterwards. It's 349 00:20:58,520 --> 00:21:03,720 Speaker 1: so common. It's just so incredibly common for queer people 350 00:21:04,440 --> 00:21:08,440 Speaker 1: who had sometimes thought are targeted more, perhaps because they 351 00:21:08,760 --> 00:21:11,159 Speaker 1: maybe perceived a difference of children or what have you. 352 00:21:11,680 --> 00:21:16,160 Speaker 1: So it's just very very very common and very very 353 00:21:16,160 --> 00:21:18,760 Speaker 1: common to have it be covered up. And I think 354 00:21:18,800 --> 00:21:20,400 Speaker 1: that was one of the things that broke my heart 355 00:21:20,440 --> 00:21:23,639 Speaker 1: most working on the book, but then also in the 356 00:21:23,680 --> 00:21:28,800 Speaker 1: aftermath of its publication, was just how alone everyone feels 357 00:21:28,880 --> 00:21:33,399 Speaker 1: with their secret, and yet how incredibly not alone everyone is, 358 00:21:34,200 --> 00:21:37,639 Speaker 1: and that it's something that I deeply believe if we 359 00:21:37,720 --> 00:21:41,800 Speaker 1: spoke about it more, the prevalence might decrease, right. I 360 00:21:41,840 --> 00:21:45,040 Speaker 1: thinkfully believe that the only way to stop this inciety 361 00:21:45,119 --> 00:21:47,480 Speaker 1: is to actually start talking about it. And so the 362 00:21:47,560 --> 00:21:50,480 Speaker 1: secrecy hurts the people who've been through it, but also 363 00:21:50,520 --> 00:21:53,080 Speaker 1: sort of keeps it going. That's been one of the 364 00:21:53,080 --> 00:21:58,359 Speaker 1: big things I hold heavily in my heart. Alex is 365 00:21:58,359 --> 00:22:02,200 Speaker 1: an adult attending a big family party when they overhear 366 00:22:02,280 --> 00:22:06,800 Speaker 1: their father saying regarding their grandfather's abuse. Oh, Alex is 367 00:22:06,840 --> 00:22:11,520 Speaker 1: the only one who remembers that. It's essentially a kind 368 00:22:11,600 --> 00:22:14,400 Speaker 1: of gas lighting. Like if they're the only one who 369 00:22:14,400 --> 00:22:18,159 Speaker 1: remembers it, then did it really happen? When there is 370 00:22:18,200 --> 00:22:21,720 Speaker 1: no doubt that it happened. In fact, Alex has a 371 00:22:21,760 --> 00:22:25,360 Speaker 1: memory of their grandfather saying to them on Halloween, I'm 372 00:22:25,400 --> 00:22:32,400 Speaker 1: a witch and someday I'm gonna get you. There's so 373 00:22:32,480 --> 00:22:38,600 Speaker 1: much in your story about the negation of the abuse 374 00:22:39,000 --> 00:22:44,640 Speaker 1: and what it does to the memory. Part of why 375 00:22:44,760 --> 00:22:46,920 Speaker 1: that scene with my father at the party was so 376 00:22:46,960 --> 00:22:50,560 Speaker 1: striking was that no one had previously denied that the 377 00:22:50,600 --> 00:22:54,119 Speaker 1: abuse happened, and it was a shock to hear him 378 00:22:54,160 --> 00:22:58,040 Speaker 1: denying him. What was the timeline on that? How old 379 00:22:58,040 --> 00:23:00,239 Speaker 1: were you when when I was in my twenties when 380 00:23:00,280 --> 00:23:03,159 Speaker 1: that happened. So it went from silence and we're not 381 00:23:03,160 --> 00:23:05,679 Speaker 1: going to talk about this, and grandfather is still going 382 00:23:05,720 --> 00:23:07,640 Speaker 1: to be in our lives and we're going to kind 383 00:23:07,640 --> 00:23:13,480 Speaker 1: of pave it over two then a kind of hunting. Yes, yeah, 384 00:23:13,640 --> 00:23:16,280 Speaker 1: I mean, my family didn't deny that it happened. They 385 00:23:16,400 --> 00:23:19,280 Speaker 1: just denied that it should hurt that it happened. They 386 00:23:19,320 --> 00:23:22,639 Speaker 1: just denied that it should have any effect. Or it 387 00:23:22,800 --> 00:23:25,840 Speaker 1: was very much if this bothers you, that is your problem, 388 00:23:25,880 --> 00:23:31,040 Speaker 1: your fault. And so my father saying that the party 389 00:23:31,200 --> 00:23:35,120 Speaker 1: was such an escalation of the denial where it was like, wait, 390 00:23:35,200 --> 00:23:39,280 Speaker 1: now yours and either to even happened, how because he 391 00:23:39,320 --> 00:23:42,480 Speaker 1: had abused my sisters as well as myself and also 392 00:23:42,560 --> 00:23:44,560 Speaker 1: another cousin or I didn't know that at the time, 393 00:23:45,440 --> 00:23:48,120 Speaker 1: there was enough of a chorus of voices that none 394 00:23:48,119 --> 00:23:51,760 Speaker 1: of us had to doubt ourselves that it happened. And 395 00:23:52,080 --> 00:23:55,119 Speaker 1: when I finally did confront him, my grandfather, when I 396 00:23:55,160 --> 00:23:59,240 Speaker 1: was eighteen, he immediately acknowledged that he had abused me, 397 00:24:00,680 --> 00:24:04,000 Speaker 1: he just denied that it was a problem. Well, any 398 00:24:04,080 --> 00:24:07,080 Speaker 1: any quite a matter of factly says it happened to 399 00:24:07,119 --> 00:24:10,760 Speaker 1: me too. Yes, he did say that, yeah, And I 400 00:24:10,800 --> 00:24:15,520 Speaker 1: think that was my family style was more to say, yes, 401 00:24:15,560 --> 00:24:18,359 Speaker 1: it happened, but we don't need to talk about it, 402 00:24:18,359 --> 00:24:22,119 Speaker 1: because it shouldn't affect you. If it affects you, It's 403 00:24:22,160 --> 00:24:25,000 Speaker 1: essentially like this idea that to be affected by the 404 00:24:25,040 --> 00:24:29,000 Speaker 1: past is a kind of weakness, that one should just 405 00:24:29,040 --> 00:24:32,879 Speaker 1: be able to turn away from it and not be affected. 406 00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:37,280 Speaker 1: I think the belief that if we don't think about 407 00:24:37,320 --> 00:24:40,520 Speaker 1: the past, it will research itself, it will, it will 408 00:24:40,560 --> 00:24:43,439 Speaker 1: resurf it um is one that is important to me. 409 00:24:43,480 --> 00:24:46,520 Speaker 1: It's one that I grew up in trans and not 410 00:24:46,640 --> 00:24:50,920 Speaker 1: transplan binary and a message constantly given to me by 411 00:24:50,960 --> 00:24:53,200 Speaker 1: society is, oh my god, that's so new. How could 412 00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:55,560 Speaker 1: you how could you demand to be recognized that way? 413 00:24:55,600 --> 00:24:57,160 Speaker 1: How could you ask to be seen that way? That's 414 00:24:57,160 --> 00:25:00,679 Speaker 1: so incredibly new? And I am so and who finds 415 00:25:01,800 --> 00:25:04,560 Speaker 1: great solace in looking at history and being able to 416 00:25:04,600 --> 00:25:10,520 Speaker 1: say super not new? Isn't actually way more true and 417 00:25:10,720 --> 00:25:13,240 Speaker 1: way more real to have people have lived throughout time 418 00:25:13,760 --> 00:25:17,000 Speaker 1: than any pretense of a very strict binary and similarly, 419 00:25:17,560 --> 00:25:20,280 Speaker 1: the idea that if we turn away from whatever happened 420 00:25:20,280 --> 00:25:23,640 Speaker 1: in the past just shows up again. I think all 421 00:25:23,680 --> 00:25:27,200 Speaker 1: of my work is like this argument for complexity and 422 00:25:27,680 --> 00:25:31,960 Speaker 1: acknowledging complexity and living in complexity, and also sort of 423 00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:36,240 Speaker 1: continuity across time, that there really isn't a way to 424 00:25:36,359 --> 00:25:38,360 Speaker 1: just put a firm break on the past and never 425 00:25:38,440 --> 00:25:46,440 Speaker 1: talk about it. That our lives are continual stories. We'll 426 00:25:46,480 --> 00:25:58,840 Speaker 1: be back in a moment with more family secrets. When 427 00:25:58,880 --> 00:26:02,159 Speaker 1: Alex is a law student studying at Harvard, during a 428 00:26:02,160 --> 00:26:05,040 Speaker 1: summer internship at a law firm, they first come across 429 00:26:05,080 --> 00:26:08,600 Speaker 1: the case of a man named Ricky Langley, a murderer 430 00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:12,040 Speaker 1: and pedophile who is facing the death penalty for killing 431 00:26:12,359 --> 00:26:17,639 Speaker 1: a six year old boy named Jeremy Gilroy m So 432 00:26:17,800 --> 00:26:21,560 Speaker 1: Alex never works on Ricky's case, They've become consumed by 433 00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:24,639 Speaker 1: it because when they watched the video and read the reports, 434 00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:28,520 Speaker 1: they are shocked to realize that they, who are firmly 435 00:26:28,560 --> 00:26:33,639 Speaker 1: opposed to capital punishment, want Ricky dead. What this about? 436 00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:38,280 Speaker 1: Alex's journey to understand Rickie's history is part of the 437 00:26:38,359 --> 00:26:44,280 Speaker 1: braid I mentioned earlier. Buried in Ricky's history are questions 438 00:26:44,320 --> 00:26:48,960 Speaker 1: and answers to Alex's own. So was your decision to 439 00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:52,800 Speaker 1: go to law school born at your mother's feet when 440 00:26:52,840 --> 00:26:56,199 Speaker 1: you were twelve years old, sitting and watching her in 441 00:26:56,280 --> 00:27:00,359 Speaker 1: law school? I wrote my application essay for herr Boss 442 00:27:00,359 --> 00:27:04,320 Speaker 1: thing I didn't want to be a lawyer, and kudos 443 00:27:04,359 --> 00:27:08,080 Speaker 1: to them for letting me in despite that fact, because 444 00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:11,159 Speaker 1: what I wanted to do was understand. I wrote it 445 00:27:11,200 --> 00:27:14,560 Speaker 1: about wanting to understand why the definitalty was constitutional because 446 00:27:14,560 --> 00:27:17,200 Speaker 1: it felt to me, you know, I'd read everything that 447 00:27:17,280 --> 00:27:21,280 Speaker 1: I could at that age, and without more training, I 448 00:27:21,280 --> 00:27:23,240 Speaker 1: had read what I could find, and to me, it 449 00:27:23,280 --> 00:27:28,920 Speaker 1: seemed patently unconstitutional. And I was also didn't quite understand 450 00:27:28,920 --> 00:27:32,760 Speaker 1: why sex offender registration was constitutional. It seems like essentially 451 00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:35,600 Speaker 1: a second punishment, given that shaming as one of the 452 00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:38,720 Speaker 1: oldest punishments, and that might appear to be sort of 453 00:27:38,760 --> 00:27:42,320 Speaker 1: an odd thing for me to care about, given that 454 00:27:43,200 --> 00:27:46,040 Speaker 1: I was abused, and one would think perhaps that I 455 00:27:46,040 --> 00:27:48,920 Speaker 1: would just of course be in favor of sex offender 456 00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:53,840 Speaker 1: registration and whatnot. But I think I was pretty acutely 457 00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:58,280 Speaker 1: aware that so much of sexual abuse happens within families, 458 00:27:58,400 --> 00:28:03,040 Speaker 1: and that offender red stories tend to leave out family 459 00:28:03,480 --> 00:28:05,640 Speaker 1: driven abece, so it's more like an illusion of safety 460 00:28:05,880 --> 00:28:09,119 Speaker 1: than an actual public mechanism for safety. And I was 461 00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:14,400 Speaker 1: really curious why that was okay, why that was as okay? 462 00:28:14,680 --> 00:28:18,119 Speaker 1: And so I went to law school for those reasons, 463 00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:22,000 Speaker 1: but promptly also started taking writing classes at night, so 464 00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:24,239 Speaker 1: I would go to law school during the day, and 465 00:28:24,280 --> 00:28:26,360 Speaker 1: I was I was still closeted then as gay. So 466 00:28:26,840 --> 00:28:29,640 Speaker 1: I've go to law school during the day, and one 467 00:28:29,680 --> 00:28:32,159 Speaker 1: evening a week I would go to fiction classes, and 468 00:28:32,240 --> 00:28:35,840 Speaker 1: one evening a week I would go to a queer 469 00:28:36,400 --> 00:28:38,440 Speaker 1: meet up that was happening in Boston at the time. 470 00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:43,000 Speaker 1: And both of those other lives were totally secret, no 471 00:28:43,080 --> 00:28:46,040 Speaker 1: when I knew at law school knew about them. What 472 00:28:46,120 --> 00:28:48,240 Speaker 1: was that like during that time? I mean, what did 473 00:28:48,320 --> 00:28:51,760 Speaker 1: that feel like? That you were essentially dividing your life 474 00:28:51,760 --> 00:28:56,160 Speaker 1: into pieces on a pie chart and and keeping secrets. 475 00:28:57,360 --> 00:28:59,880 Speaker 1: That was the only way I knew, all right, I 476 00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:03,760 Speaker 1: had grown up in secrets. I'd kept secrets. I've known 477 00:29:03,800 --> 00:29:06,880 Speaker 1: I was trans since I was eight. You have a 478 00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:09,600 Speaker 1: very cute memory of when I realized that, and I 479 00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:13,000 Speaker 1: kept that secret hard back in law school. It actually 480 00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:15,760 Speaker 1: felt very natural because it was what I was used 481 00:29:15,760 --> 00:29:19,000 Speaker 1: to ill ta get a step. Further, I was really 482 00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:23,280 Speaker 1: politically liberal, wasn't I am really politically liberal? And yet 483 00:29:23,400 --> 00:29:26,680 Speaker 1: my first year I joined all the conservative organizations because 484 00:29:26,680 --> 00:29:29,280 Speaker 1: I was like, I don't understand any of this, and 485 00:29:29,360 --> 00:29:32,080 Speaker 1: so let me try to learn. So I was so closeted. 486 00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:35,120 Speaker 1: I was just very, very very closet. I had this 487 00:29:35,520 --> 00:29:38,080 Speaker 1: daytime life that was had nothing to do with who 488 00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:41,040 Speaker 1: I really was, and then I would have this evening 489 00:29:41,040 --> 00:29:44,239 Speaker 1: life that was where my heart laved and where I 490 00:29:44,280 --> 00:29:48,239 Speaker 1: was trying on the idea of living with myself. So 491 00:29:48,280 --> 00:29:51,320 Speaker 1: at what point when you're in law school do you 492 00:29:52,280 --> 00:29:57,000 Speaker 1: come across the case of Ricky Langley. My first summer 493 00:29:57,040 --> 00:30:01,720 Speaker 1: of law school, I took a internship helping to defend 494 00:30:02,480 --> 00:30:05,239 Speaker 1: men accused of murder, mostly meant all the clients from them, 495 00:30:05,960 --> 00:30:09,880 Speaker 1: and I came across the case on the third day 496 00:30:09,880 --> 00:30:12,720 Speaker 1: of that internship when I was shown his confession with 497 00:30:12,800 --> 00:30:18,200 Speaker 1: you tap in the interview for the job for the internship, 498 00:30:18,640 --> 00:30:22,080 Speaker 1: they had asked me, well could you help defendive head 499 00:30:22,120 --> 00:30:25,760 Speaker 1: of five? And I remember I was sitting in my 500 00:30:25,840 --> 00:30:30,040 Speaker 1: law school dorm room, and you know that quality of 501 00:30:30,560 --> 00:30:33,880 Speaker 1: where the air changes when it's one of those moments 502 00:30:33,960 --> 00:30:38,360 Speaker 1: in your life where things collide and the quality of 503 00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:42,800 Speaker 1: the air shifted. And I remember saying, yes, I can, 504 00:30:43,960 --> 00:30:47,680 Speaker 1: and I truly believed, you know, And I was pretty 505 00:30:47,760 --> 00:30:50,000 Speaker 1: intense person in my twenties, and I would say I 506 00:30:50,040 --> 00:30:53,320 Speaker 1: truly believed that if I really opposed the death penalty, 507 00:30:53,760 --> 00:30:56,280 Speaker 1: I had to be able to do this, that this 508 00:30:56,720 --> 00:31:00,840 Speaker 1: was the ultimate test because of my past. It would 509 00:31:00,920 --> 00:31:03,480 Speaker 1: it would sort of prove that I was so over 510 00:31:03,560 --> 00:31:06,040 Speaker 1: my past that I could remain committed to my ideals. 511 00:31:07,160 --> 00:31:10,000 Speaker 1: And so that was the first inkling. But then I 512 00:31:10,040 --> 00:31:15,480 Speaker 1: got to the internship and they showed us his confession 513 00:31:15,560 --> 00:31:22,120 Speaker 1: video tape, and I watched the video and he described 514 00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:25,840 Speaker 1: doing something to children that my grandfather had done to me, 515 00:31:25,920 --> 00:31:29,960 Speaker 1: like a very specific thing, and my body just totally 516 00:31:30,040 --> 00:31:33,120 Speaker 1: launched me back into the past. That was kind of 517 00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:36,440 Speaker 1: the moment where I realized that what I had believed 518 00:31:36,520 --> 00:31:39,080 Speaker 1: about how we could just turn away from the past, 519 00:31:39,080 --> 00:31:42,520 Speaker 1: how we could just deny it, was in fact not 520 00:31:42,560 --> 00:31:44,680 Speaker 1: going to be true, and that I was going to 521 00:31:44,800 --> 00:31:50,240 Speaker 1: have to find a different way through this story. My 522 00:31:50,320 --> 00:31:54,840 Speaker 1: body just totally launched me back into the past. Anyone 523 00:31:54,880 --> 00:31:59,840 Speaker 1: who has experienced trauma knows this feeling, expressed so beautifully 524 00:31:59,840 --> 00:32:03,320 Speaker 1: by a previous guest on this podcast, Dr Bessel vander Kolk, 525 00:32:03,800 --> 00:32:06,560 Speaker 1: author of the seminal book The Body Keeps the Score. 526 00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:11,360 Speaker 1: Trauma lives in the body, and we now use the 527 00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:14,760 Speaker 1: word trigger when we're triggered by something that stirs up 528 00:32:14,800 --> 00:32:18,360 Speaker 1: that trauma. It's like a game of shoots and ladders 529 00:32:18,880 --> 00:32:25,840 Speaker 1: were taken right back there. So you become deeply involved 530 00:32:26,240 --> 00:32:30,120 Speaker 1: in Ricky's story and in the story of Jeremy Gilroy, 531 00:32:30,280 --> 00:32:32,640 Speaker 1: the six year old boy that he that he killed. 532 00:32:33,680 --> 00:32:36,480 Speaker 1: Was that clear to you that the story has become 533 00:32:36,560 --> 00:32:46,000 Speaker 1: so intricately braided together psychologically, your story and Ricky's story 534 00:32:46,240 --> 00:32:50,440 Speaker 1: and Jeremy's story and the other people who are connected 535 00:32:50,480 --> 00:32:53,760 Speaker 1: to them. You know, there are some really breathtaking moments 536 00:32:53,840 --> 00:32:57,080 Speaker 1: where it all feels like it's kind of in a 537 00:32:57,120 --> 00:33:01,479 Speaker 1: concert somehow, that it's the way that you are coming 538 00:33:01,520 --> 00:33:05,960 Speaker 1: to understand everything that you need to know. I really 539 00:33:05,960 --> 00:33:09,040 Speaker 1: appreciate your word to us there, because he said in concert, 540 00:33:09,240 --> 00:33:11,400 Speaker 1: and I know you mean like together, but at the 541 00:33:11,440 --> 00:33:13,920 Speaker 1: same time that's sort of a musical metaphor, No, I 542 00:33:13,960 --> 00:33:17,720 Speaker 1: actually meant. I meant it as a musical metaphor. Okay, fantastic. 543 00:33:18,640 --> 00:33:22,200 Speaker 1: In terms of when I sort of got involved in 544 00:33:22,320 --> 00:33:24,960 Speaker 1: his case, I think it's really important to note that 545 00:33:25,120 --> 00:33:27,200 Speaker 1: I did not work on his case at all and 546 00:33:27,360 --> 00:33:29,680 Speaker 1: was not part of it at all while I was 547 00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:31,920 Speaker 1: doing the internship. Had I been involved in it, I 548 00:33:31,960 --> 00:33:35,239 Speaker 1: never could have written the book. So what happened was 549 00:33:35,320 --> 00:33:39,000 Speaker 1: that I was showing that video, not because I was 550 00:33:39,040 --> 00:33:41,120 Speaker 1: going to be working on his case. The second trial 551 00:33:41,160 --> 00:33:45,520 Speaker 1: had concluded by that point, and so I didn't have 552 00:33:45,680 --> 00:33:48,600 Speaker 1: any interaction with his case for the rest of that 553 00:33:48,640 --> 00:33:51,400 Speaker 1: summer until meeting him at the end of the summer, 554 00:33:51,440 --> 00:33:53,440 Speaker 1: which is a moment that's at the end of the book. 555 00:33:54,080 --> 00:33:56,760 Speaker 1: And this very curious thing happened in those years where 556 00:33:57,800 --> 00:34:01,920 Speaker 1: I actually couldn't remember the King needs met. For many years, 557 00:34:01,960 --> 00:34:04,240 Speaker 1: I could not remember it. In those years. It was 558 00:34:04,280 --> 00:34:07,560 Speaker 1: so intense that if I looked up the case online, 559 00:34:08,480 --> 00:34:11,080 Speaker 1: I could read all about it and I would walk away, 560 00:34:11,160 --> 00:34:13,680 Speaker 1: or I would put a print out or a paper down, 561 00:34:14,600 --> 00:34:17,799 Speaker 1: and I would not be able just a moment later 562 00:34:17,840 --> 00:34:21,080 Speaker 1: to tell you what the murderer's name was. I knew 563 00:34:21,080 --> 00:34:23,640 Speaker 1: everything else about the case. All the details are in 564 00:34:23,680 --> 00:34:27,800 Speaker 1: my mind, but I couldn't remember his name. A big 565 00:34:27,840 --> 00:34:30,840 Speaker 1: part of why Alex can't remember Rickie's name is like 566 00:34:30,960 --> 00:34:34,640 Speaker 1: that staticky reaction to trauma. As they read through eight 567 00:34:34,640 --> 00:34:38,239 Speaker 1: thousand pages of court records, they're haunted by the gruesome 568 00:34:38,239 --> 00:34:42,560 Speaker 1: details as a case, a six year old boy murdered 569 00:34:42,600 --> 00:34:45,640 Speaker 1: and stuck in a closet, wrapped in a blue blanket, 570 00:34:45,960 --> 00:34:50,240 Speaker 1: where he remained for days, a seaman stain on his shirt, 571 00:34:51,040 --> 00:34:55,120 Speaker 1: a single pubic hair on his lip, a sock stuffed 572 00:34:55,120 --> 00:35:01,600 Speaker 1: into his mouth, a videotaped confession. Over the course of 573 00:35:01,640 --> 00:35:05,640 Speaker 1: the years, Alex studies Ricky's history, moving back and forth 574 00:35:05,680 --> 00:35:09,399 Speaker 1: in time in order to understand, if not pinpoint where 575 00:35:09,440 --> 00:35:14,760 Speaker 1: the story begins, both Zair's and Ricky Langley's. It's understanding 576 00:35:14,800 --> 00:35:19,520 Speaker 1: thereafter not forgiveness. There is no place for the simple 577 00:35:19,560 --> 00:35:26,520 Speaker 1: platitude of forgiveness. As they write from the transcripts and 578 00:35:26,560 --> 00:35:29,160 Speaker 1: by visiting the places in Louisiana where events in the 579 00:35:29,200 --> 00:35:33,440 Speaker 1: man's life took place, I have imagined his mother, his sisters, 580 00:35:33,840 --> 00:35:37,040 Speaker 1: the little boy's mother, all the characters from the past, 581 00:35:38,120 --> 00:35:40,440 Speaker 1: and I have driven the long, lonely road from New 582 00:35:40,560 --> 00:35:45,040 Speaker 1: Orleans to the Louisiana State Penitentiary called Angola. I have 583 00:35:45,160 --> 00:35:48,960 Speaker 1: sat across from this man, the murderer, in a visiting booth, 584 00:35:49,440 --> 00:35:51,759 Speaker 1: and have looked into the same eyes that are on 585 00:35:51,840 --> 00:35:56,440 Speaker 1: this tape. This tape brought me to re examine everything 586 00:35:56,440 --> 00:36:00,880 Speaker 1: I believed, not only about the law, but my family 587 00:36:01,160 --> 00:36:07,960 Speaker 1: and my past. In both your family story and your 588 00:36:08,040 --> 00:36:13,400 Speaker 1: story and then Ricky Langley's story, there is this question 589 00:36:13,440 --> 00:36:16,279 Speaker 1: of how far do we have to trace back? Where 590 00:36:16,280 --> 00:36:21,040 Speaker 1: do we begin telling a story if we're really going 591 00:36:21,080 --> 00:36:25,880 Speaker 1: to be telling it from its beginnings, if that's even possible. 592 00:36:27,120 --> 00:36:29,640 Speaker 1: One of the things I'm really interested in is how 593 00:36:29,719 --> 00:36:32,640 Speaker 1: much where you start a story shapes what it's meaning is. 594 00:36:33,360 --> 00:36:36,040 Speaker 1: And that comes up in my family right like I 595 00:36:36,080 --> 00:36:41,080 Speaker 1: think you you interpret my family's actions and they're turning 596 00:36:41,080 --> 00:36:45,400 Speaker 1: away from the abuse differently. If I begin the story 597 00:36:45,880 --> 00:36:49,160 Speaker 1: shortly before the abuse, then sometimes it might be possible 598 00:36:49,200 --> 00:36:52,080 Speaker 1: to judge my parents quite harshly for that. But if 599 00:36:52,120 --> 00:36:54,719 Speaker 1: you tell a larger story about why they would feel 600 00:36:54,760 --> 00:36:57,360 Speaker 1: so compelled to turn away from the past, and you 601 00:36:57,360 --> 00:37:00,520 Speaker 1: start understanding that for them it was and st ordinary 602 00:37:00,560 --> 00:37:04,440 Speaker 1: and out of grief and fear, among my brother's illnesses 603 00:37:04,640 --> 00:37:07,680 Speaker 1: and the unknown nature of the future and the loss 604 00:37:07,719 --> 00:37:10,839 Speaker 1: of my sister. I think it's possible to have more 605 00:37:10,880 --> 00:37:14,600 Speaker 1: empathy for why it would be so important to them 606 00:37:14,800 --> 00:37:17,480 Speaker 1: to rewrite the story of the past and pretend the 607 00:37:17,520 --> 00:37:19,600 Speaker 1: past hadn't the harms of the past and the hearts 608 00:37:19,680 --> 00:37:23,720 Speaker 1: that past hadn't happened. And similarly in the Langley case, 609 00:37:23,880 --> 00:37:27,160 Speaker 1: I think we understand mack you Langley differently depending on 610 00:37:27,200 --> 00:37:31,080 Speaker 1: where we start his story, and that that power of 611 00:37:31,080 --> 00:37:35,080 Speaker 1: the storyteller to shape the story and what goes in 612 00:37:35,200 --> 00:37:37,880 Speaker 1: and what gets left out is also of course a 613 00:37:37,960 --> 00:37:43,759 Speaker 1: big thing in the the law. There's so much that ultimately 614 00:37:43,920 --> 00:37:48,839 Speaker 1: is threaded through um your story that has to do 615 00:37:49,480 --> 00:37:55,360 Speaker 1: with the question of forgiveness, the question of forgiveness in 616 00:37:55,560 --> 00:37:58,960 Speaker 1: your family, with your parents, you with your grandfather, the 617 00:37:59,080 --> 00:38:04,200 Speaker 1: question of this sort of extraordinary forgiveness that happens in 618 00:38:04,200 --> 00:38:08,319 Speaker 1: in Ricky Langley's case, where Jeremy's mother, the mother of 619 00:38:08,360 --> 00:38:11,719 Speaker 1: the boy that he murdered, is the one who appeals 620 00:38:12,239 --> 00:38:16,239 Speaker 1: to the court to spare him the death penalty. Talk 621 00:38:16,320 --> 00:38:18,920 Speaker 1: to me a little bit about what you learned about 622 00:38:19,120 --> 00:38:23,000 Speaker 1: that there can be actions that may seem like on 623 00:38:23,040 --> 00:38:26,080 Speaker 1: the surface that they would connote forgiveness, but that in 624 00:38:26,160 --> 00:38:30,200 Speaker 1: fact don't require forgiveness. Yeah, I think forgiveness it's such 625 00:38:30,200 --> 00:38:34,400 Speaker 1: a Oh, it's such a tricky idea. I really justlike 626 00:38:34,520 --> 00:38:37,520 Speaker 1: the way to use it culturally. I think we use 627 00:38:37,560 --> 00:38:40,320 Speaker 1: it to simplify. I think we use it to flatten. 628 00:38:40,520 --> 00:38:43,520 Speaker 1: I think we often use it to a race. We 629 00:38:43,640 --> 00:38:46,160 Speaker 1: often use it to shift the burden to the person 630 00:38:46,200 --> 00:38:49,000 Speaker 1: who has been harmed and to say, oh, well, that 631 00:38:49,040 --> 00:38:54,560 Speaker 1: person should just forgive. And I think it's really important 632 00:38:54,560 --> 00:38:56,839 Speaker 1: that we know that Laurel I did not forgive, that 633 00:38:56,840 --> 00:38:59,959 Speaker 1: that that her action she feels is not a matter 634 00:39:00,040 --> 00:39:03,520 Speaker 1: or a forgiveness, that her action really is about not 635 00:39:03,560 --> 00:39:05,480 Speaker 1: wanting him to die, but that that is not the 636 00:39:05,520 --> 00:39:10,160 Speaker 1: same thing. And that is a more complicated position than 637 00:39:10,280 --> 00:39:15,480 Speaker 1: we have cultural language for. And yet I personally believe 638 00:39:15,960 --> 00:39:19,200 Speaker 1: probably a more honest position than we have cultural language for, 639 00:39:20,080 --> 00:39:23,440 Speaker 1: and one that allows for recognition of the humanity of 640 00:39:23,480 --> 00:39:27,560 Speaker 1: the person who did the harm without erasing the harm 641 00:39:27,640 --> 00:39:30,520 Speaker 1: done to the person who was hurting. And we are 642 00:39:30,560 --> 00:39:34,200 Speaker 1: not very good at duality in this society, at holding dualities, 643 00:39:34,719 --> 00:39:37,880 Speaker 1: and that is one that I think is really important. 644 00:39:39,200 --> 00:39:44,320 Speaker 1: I hope someday we as a society learn a better relationship. 645 00:39:45,239 --> 00:39:50,480 Speaker 1: Two the harms of the past, one that makes more 646 00:39:50,560 --> 00:39:54,600 Speaker 1: space for reckoning and more space for accountability and more 647 00:39:54,640 --> 00:39:59,960 Speaker 1: space for complexity, and stops rushing to a simplified idea. 648 00:40:00,120 --> 00:40:03,799 Speaker 1: Forgiveness that could have quite a lot of power, and 649 00:40:03,880 --> 00:40:08,440 Speaker 1: could be quite beautiful, and could make space for everyone's 650 00:40:08,520 --> 00:40:13,040 Speaker 1: humanity and reconciliation and whatnot, is instead now used as 651 00:40:13,040 --> 00:40:17,719 Speaker 1: a weapon or a band aid. And that is kind 652 00:40:17,760 --> 00:40:21,480 Speaker 1: of why I am so resistant to engaging with it. 653 00:40:25,600 --> 00:40:29,000 Speaker 1: Let's close with a few more words from Alex. Here 654 00:40:29,560 --> 00:40:33,040 Speaker 1: they stand at the cemetery where their grandparents are buried. 655 00:40:35,000 --> 00:40:39,359 Speaker 1: My grandmother is buried next to a secret. My grandfather died, 656 00:40:39,400 --> 00:40:43,080 Speaker 1: but the fact of who he was. I can't say 657 00:40:43,120 --> 00:40:47,400 Speaker 1: that I forgive them, only that forgiveness is too simple 658 00:40:47,440 --> 00:40:54,400 Speaker 1: a word. They helped make me. They did such harm. 659 00:40:54,440 --> 00:40:58,640 Speaker 1: I have to go now. My voice sounds strange, tremulous 660 00:40:58,640 --> 00:41:01,880 Speaker 1: in the quiet. I have always found the dead in 661 00:41:01,920 --> 00:41:05,400 Speaker 1: the stories they leave behind, not in the stone cold 662 00:41:05,440 --> 00:41:08,759 Speaker 1: fact of the grave. But I never got to say 663 00:41:08,800 --> 00:41:11,880 Speaker 1: goodbye all my grandparents were alive, because every goodbye I 664 00:41:12,000 --> 00:41:14,560 Speaker 1: ever said it was really just words that stood in 665 00:41:14,600 --> 00:41:18,480 Speaker 1: place of all I couldn't say. I'm going to go 666 00:41:18,600 --> 00:41:26,279 Speaker 1: finished telling the story there Now they know I am 667 00:41:26,320 --> 00:41:31,239 Speaker 1: telling this story. I mean those words to be my 668 00:41:31,360 --> 00:41:35,399 Speaker 1: last to them. But where there was silence, there will 669 00:41:35,440 --> 00:41:39,680 Speaker 1: be speech that where there were secrets, I will make 670 00:41:39,760 --> 00:41:55,280 Speaker 1: way for the complicated truth. Family Secret is a production 671 00:41:55,320 --> 00:41:59,319 Speaker 1: of My Heart Media. Dylan Fagin and Bethman Macaluso are 672 00:41:59,360 --> 00:42:04,120 Speaker 1: the executive producers. Andrew Howard is our audio editor. If 673 00:42:04,160 --> 00:42:06,440 Speaker 1: you have a secret you'd like to share, leave us 674 00:42:06,440 --> 00:42:10,000 Speaker 1: a voicemail and your story could appear on an upcoming 675 00:42:10,040 --> 00:42:17,320 Speaker 1: bonus episode. Our number is one Secret zero. That's secret 676 00:42:17,520 --> 00:42:20,839 Speaker 1: and then the number zero. You can also find us 677 00:42:20,840 --> 00:42:26,160 Speaker 1: on Instagram at Danny Writer, Facebook at facebook dot com 678 00:42:26,160 --> 00:42:30,040 Speaker 1: slash Family Secrets Pod, and Twitter at Fami Secret Spot. 679 00:42:30,800 --> 00:42:32,840 Speaker 1: And if you want to know about my family Secret 680 00:42:33,000 --> 00:42:36,640 Speaker 1: that inspired this podcast, check out my New York Times 681 00:42:36,680 --> 00:43:00,400 Speaker 1: best selling memoir Inheritance. For more podcast asked for my 682 00:43:00,440 --> 00:43:03,400 Speaker 1: Heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast, 683 00:43:03,560 --> 00:43:05,600 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.