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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Bloomberg P and L Podcast. I'm Pim Fox.

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Speaker 1: Along with my co host Lisa Abramowitz. Each day we

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Speaker 1: bring you the most important, noteworthy, and useful interviews for

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Speaker 1: you and your money, whether you're at the grocery store

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Speaker 1: or the trading floor. Find the Bloomberg P M L

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Speaker 1: Podcast on Apple Podcasts, SoundCloud, and Bloomberg dot Com. Tesla

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Speaker 1: Automobiles they do not burn fossil fuel. Tesla, the company

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Speaker 1: burns a lot of cash. Here to tell us more

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Speaker 1: about the company is Gordon Johnson, Managing Director, Alternative Energy, Metals,

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Speaker 1: Mining and Equipment Analyst for Vertical Group. Gordon Johnson, always

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Speaker 1: a pleasure. You were listening into the call yesterday. Why

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Speaker 1: don't you share with our listeners what you heard and

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Speaker 1: what you took away from it? Yeah, I mean, so

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Speaker 1: what we heard on the call um UM, Surprisingly, I

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Speaker 1: think not just to us, but many was a very

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Speaker 1: defensive um management team from Tesla, specifically Elon Musk. And

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Speaker 1: you know, historically they've been very open to taking questions,

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Speaker 1: and it seems like very important questions with respect to

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Speaker 1: surprisingly low April Model three deliveries. UM, what's going on

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Speaker 1: with the deposits on the Model three given U the

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Speaker 1: cars have been delayed significantly. UM. Questions around these items

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Speaker 1: were essentially deemed boring UM, and they turned it over

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Speaker 1: to a YouTube blogger UM who says he owns fifty

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Speaker 1: four shares UM. So when you're shutting UH analysts from

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Speaker 1: the institutions that you are heavily relying on and heavily

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Speaker 1: rely on to do your business, it's it's very concerning.

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Speaker 1: You know, it's reminiscent to us of you know, in

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Speaker 1: the second quarter of two thousand one when Jeff skilling

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Speaker 1: Um called an analyst on our areas call Um, when

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Speaker 1: the stock was at fifty five and by the end

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Speaker 1: of the year was at nine. Not we're not saying

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Speaker 1: Tesla is in ron, but we are saying that this

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Speaker 1: is a definite shift in tone from from management at

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Speaker 1: at Tesla. So Gordon, given given that shift, why aren't

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Speaker 1: the shares of Tesla down more? They're down more than six, yes,

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Speaker 1: but still somewhat elevated. If you really think that that

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Speaker 1: this is about to collapse, yeah, I mean it's because

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Speaker 1: you have literally this is this is not a you know,

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Speaker 1: an analysis type of stock or fundamentals based stock. It's

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Speaker 1: literally a faith based stock. It's almost a religion um.

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Speaker 1: And I think that a lot of the holders know.

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Speaker 1: If you look at the proxy statement of Tesla, you'll

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Speaker 1: see that Elon Musk is predds thirteen million shares of

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Speaker 1: stock for different debts that the company has. So we

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Speaker 1: don't know exactly what the key levers are to call that.

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Speaker 1: You know the essentially when that stock will be called.

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Speaker 1: But you know if this stock drops to a certain level,

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Speaker 1: it's going to accelerate down. As you know, the death

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Speaker 1: holders um essentially forced Elon Musk to sell stock to

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Speaker 1: to cover those debts. Okay, so let's talk about the

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Speaker 1: death holders and the capital raise that Elon Musk says

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Speaker 1: that he doesn't need to do. He said that they're

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Speaker 1: going to stop burning cash later this year and start

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Speaker 1: turning a profit. Um. How much credibility is there at

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Speaker 1: this point with those pledges And is it true that

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Speaker 1: you think that he won't need to raise capital again

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Speaker 1: in the next time? I don't know nine months. Let's

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Speaker 1: raise the facts, right, they burnt over a billion dollars

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Speaker 1: of free cash. The cash balance dropped by nearly a

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Speaker 1: billion dollars in a quarter. This is the third largest

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Speaker 1: cash burn free cash flow cash burn in any single quarter.

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Speaker 1: I want to be clear here, Elon Musk is saying

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Speaker 1: that he is not and will not raise equity. He

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Speaker 1: has said that before you go back to fifteen, he

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Speaker 1: said the company will never need to raise equity again.

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Speaker 1: Since then, I think they've done in six to seven times.

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Speaker 1: We think they will need to raise and let me

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Speaker 1: be more specific, we think they're gonna do it this quarter,

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Speaker 1: which means over the next two months. Is it gonna

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Speaker 1: be equity? I'm sorry, we think they need to raise capital.

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Speaker 1: Is it gonna be equity? Is gonna be dead? We

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Speaker 1: don't know, but we do think they need to raise

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Speaker 1: capital if they're going to hit their uh, you know,

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Speaker 1: production plans um And that's where we stand, and that's

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Speaker 1: what our analysis suggests, and we stand by that. This

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Speaker 1: quarter affirms that not not not not pushing us further

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Speaker 1: away from that. Gordon, what are some of the specific

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Speaker 1: issues that the Tesla has to deal with in order

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Speaker 1: to let's say, get this model three out the door

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Speaker 1: and onto onto the road. Yeah, so if you look

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Speaker 1: at the electric which is very well respected, they're saying

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Speaker 1: the giga factor is only complete UM. If you look

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Speaker 1: at some of the care downs that respected UM auto

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Speaker 1: analysts have done, and these these on sell side analysts,

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Speaker 1: you know, financialists, these are these are engineers. Uh. They

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Speaker 1: said that the Model three has been built very um UH.

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Speaker 1: I don't want to use their word poorly, but certain

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Speaker 1: items and certain key steps have and skipped. So think

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Speaker 1: about this, Kim, right you have Tessa said that you

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Speaker 1: hate Model three Model threes that have been produced in

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Speaker 1: the first half of April UM and they said there

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Speaker 1: were two thousand Model threes in transit, so that's roughly

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Speaker 1: six thousand Model threes. Yet inside EVS is saying they

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Speaker 1: only delivered fifty. So and then if you use the

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Speaker 1: Brewer numbers the which they tracked the VIN numbers for

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Speaker 1: the Model threes, there was ten thousand produced in April.

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Speaker 1: So it looks like there's thousands of Model threes sitting

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Speaker 1: out there that either are in transit to be the Lute,

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Speaker 1: which it doesn't take long to deliver these cars, that's

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Speaker 1: one option, or you know they have issues. I either

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Speaker 1: have been poorly constructed and they're still waiting to be

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Speaker 1: finalized so they're not really produced UM, or they're just

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Speaker 1: sitting in inventory. Um either three of those scenarios is scary.

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Speaker 1: So to your question, what needs to be done, Uh,

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Speaker 1: it seems like quite a bit needs to be done.

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Speaker 1: And we need to get more color on these production

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Speaker 1: numbers that they're pitting out there, because the deliveries numbers

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Speaker 1: from inside EVS And keep in mind this this is

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Speaker 1: a third party um U analytical company, but you know,

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Speaker 1: very well respected, a very spot on so far over

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Speaker 1: the years with the sector Tesla deliveries on a monthly basis. Uh,

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Speaker 1: they don't match up with Tesla's production numbers. So what

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Speaker 1: do they need to do? Probably spend a lot more

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Speaker 1: CAPEX to get their production facilities up to snuff UM

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Speaker 1: And that's clearly not what the company is indicating. They

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Speaker 1: actually cut their cap X numbers. Well if they don't

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Speaker 1: have the capital to expand. Gordon Johnson, thank you so

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Speaker 1: much for joining us today. Gordon Johnson is Managing director,

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Speaker 1: Alternative Energy, Metals, Mining and Equipment Analyst at Vertical Group

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Speaker 1: in New York. Uh some strong words that the call

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Speaker 1: yesterday that Ellen Musk held with investors reminded him after

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Speaker 1: the two thousand and one n RON call, and that

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Speaker 1: Tesla would have to raise capital within the next few

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Speaker 1: months in order to keep going. We will keep an

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Speaker 1: eye on the shares which are down about six and

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Speaker 1: a half percent right now. Bermuda is an economy that

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Speaker 1: depends heavily on tourism from the United States as well

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Speaker 1: as its desk as it's a it's a well known

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Speaker 1: profile of being a destination for businesses. Here to talk

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Speaker 1: about the nation is the Honorable David Burt, Premier of

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Speaker 1: the Government of Bermuda. He is the youngest ever he

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Speaker 1: joins us now he is thirty eight years old. You

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Speaker 1: went to George Washington University UH and graduated with a

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Speaker 1: business degree, and so I want to talk with you.

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Speaker 1: You've been in the position for about nine months now.

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Speaker 1: SMP just upgraded UH. The outlook to for Bermuda to

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Speaker 1: UH positive outlook. What do you see as the main

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Speaker 1: challenge going forward in the near term for Bermuda. Oh, well,

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Speaker 1: good morning, it's Elie saying good morning. It's him a

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Speaker 1: good morning to your listening audience. I mean, the challenge

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Speaker 1: for Uda is to translate what we've done well for

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Speaker 1: so long into a new future and what that world

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Speaker 1: will look like. So Bermuda has always been a center

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Speaker 1: of innovation and the reason for our success in the

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Speaker 1: insurance spaces that we were able to bring together regulators,

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Speaker 1: the lawmakers and the business sector to figure out regulation

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Speaker 1: that was smart and that could work and that could

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Speaker 1: allow industries to grow. And so from that perspective, our

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Speaker 1: challenges to translate that into new areas of the economy

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Speaker 1: and our the global economy. So whether or not that's

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Speaker 1: dealing um in the space of digital assets, or whether

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Speaker 1: that's dealing in the space of how we're going to

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Speaker 1: look to play a role in what the global economy

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Speaker 1: will be, that's what Bermuda and that's how Bermuda is

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Speaker 1: trying to position itself. Speak if you can about the

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Speaker 1: actual structure of Bermuda. It is a British overseas territories.

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Speaker 1: What does that mean in terms of its governance, its

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Speaker 1: laws and its relationship with the United Kingdom. Bermuda as

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Speaker 1: a over these territory, we have the most advanced constitution

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Speaker 1: out of all the United Kingdom overseas territories and it's

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Speaker 1: a constitution of which we're actually celebrating our fiftieth and

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Speaker 1: adversary ever, thank you very much this year, actually this

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Speaker 1: month uh to be precise. But what our relation is

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Speaker 1: that we have full internal self government. So we make

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Speaker 1: all of our own laws and we set all of

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Speaker 1: our own procedures, and the United Kingdom is responsible for

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Speaker 1: internal security, UM, external affairs and defense. Okay, I'm wondering

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Speaker 1: you're talking about how insurance companies and other businesses have

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Speaker 1: gravitated to the territory. I want to talk about a

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Speaker 1: new UK law that will go into effect I believe

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Speaker 1: in twenty twenty that will force UH different companies to

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Speaker 1: disclose where they file their taxes. That might butchering this,

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Speaker 1: but basically people are concerned that this will give less

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Speaker 1: of a benefit to certain corporations who file in Bermuda.

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Speaker 1: What's your take on this and can you please, you know,

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Speaker 1: give it more detailed. How I'm then what I just

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Speaker 1: tried to do, No problem, I'll be I'll be happy

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Speaker 1: to do that. Let me start by saying that uh

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Speaker 1: in from the Bermuda perspective, we make our own laws.

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Speaker 1: And so for the first time in the fifty years

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Speaker 1: that we've seen an internal squabble which is taking place

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Speaker 1: the United Kingdom get to a point where there was

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Speaker 1: an amendment that was passed to a bill where the

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Speaker 1: parliament seems to think that it can pass laws for

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Speaker 1: people that don't have representation inside their parliament. So that

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Speaker 1: is a completely separate issue and that's something that UM

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Speaker 1: I think UM is unfortunate. But in from the Bermuda perspective,

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Speaker 1: we do not recognize the right of the United Kingdoms

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Speaker 1: who set um our laws because we have full internal

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Speaker 1: self government and the only thing the United Kingdom actually

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Speaker 1: has responsibility for his external affairs internal security and defense. However,

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Speaker 1: because I don't want to conflate the issues, what they

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Speaker 1: had spoken about was an issue of having a public

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Speaker 1: register of beneficial owners of companies, which is not the

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Speaker 1: global standard of which exists. Bermuda has, unlike many countries,

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Speaker 1: for over seventy years, had a central register of beneficial ownership,

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Speaker 1: so we know all the persons who owned the companies

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Speaker 1: that are registered in Bermuda. And what we also have

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Speaker 1: is that we are we are compliant with the international

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Speaker 1: standards which is set by the o E c D

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Speaker 1: of making sure that we exchange that information UM with

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Speaker 1: authorities UM around the world who are looking to get that.

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Speaker 1: So Bermuda has has led the charge. We are one

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Speaker 1: of the leaders UM in international tax transparency and compliant.

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Speaker 1: So we are the first overseas territory to have an

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Speaker 1: agreement with Her Majesty's Revenue Customs in the UK and

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Speaker 1: the first overseas territory to have an agreement with the

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Speaker 1: U s UM Internal Revenue Service here UM in uh

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Speaker 1: IN in the United States. So we UM have led

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Speaker 1: the space in this charge. But Bermuda is not a

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Speaker 1: tax play. Bermuda is a regulatory play as well, and

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Speaker 1: so what you see for the insurance companies, A lot

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Speaker 1: of the insurance companies that are actually in Bermuda UM

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Speaker 1: have taken a eight to get too technical, a nine

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Speaker 1: fifty three election on their UM tax return. So they

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Speaker 1: actually file taxes as a US taxpayer, but they're in

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Speaker 1: Bermuda because we have a unique regulatory environment that allows

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Speaker 1: us too, that allows them to deal with one regulator

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Speaker 1: to access insurance markets the United States as opposed to

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Speaker 1: the fifty different regulators that are in all of these

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Speaker 1: states here in the US. I wish we had more

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Speaker 1: time because the one question I want to ask you

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Speaker 1: has to do with same sex marriage. I don't like,

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Speaker 1: can you do that in twenty seconds? What's the status

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Speaker 1: UM I'm perfectly happy to discuss that. Bermuda. We uh,

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Speaker 1: we are the first UK Overseas Caribbean UK overseas territory

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Speaker 1: to give full legal recognition to same sex couples. It

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Speaker 1: is something that did not exist in Bermuda before our

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Speaker 1: government passed it and we are welcoming to all persons

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Speaker 1: on our shores. We are proud of the records which

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Speaker 1: we have. Uh. If you want to say five years

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Speaker 1: ago there was nothing, but now we recognize um all

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Speaker 1: same sex couples. Thank you very much for being with us.

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Speaker 1: The Premier Bermuda, David Burt, thank you very much. And

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Speaker 1: the happy birthday and congratulations on the constitution anniversary. Absolutely,

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Speaker 1: thank you Bermuda, much appreciated. Amazon just has to hint

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Speaker 1: that it is thinking of getting into an industry to

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Speaker 1: scare shareholders away from all potential competitors in that sector.

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Speaker 1: Here to talk about the skirmish that happened yesterday in

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Speaker 1: the payments sector is David Ritter, Payments and specialty finance

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Speaker 1: analyst with Bloomberg Intelligence. Dave, thank you so much for

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Speaker 1: being with us. Bloomberg News reported that Amazon said that

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Speaker 1: it was more aggressively getting into payments processing to compete

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Speaker 1: with the likes of PayPal, Visa, MasterCard, Square. There was

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Speaker 1: a fierce reaction tell us, what is Amazon exactly thinking

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Speaker 1: of doing? Well, it's interesting. I mean, this is a

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Speaker 1: topic that I've written about, actually going back many months,

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Speaker 1: the possibility that uh, they might decide to sharply cut

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Speaker 1: their rates to and sent merchants to accept their Amazon

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Speaker 1: Pay service. So, I mean, just think about it. Between

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Speaker 1: what are the two hundred million Prime users now, so

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Speaker 1: that's two hundred million stored payment credentials plus non Prime

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Speaker 1: users have their payment credentials stored there. But the challenge

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Speaker 1: has been you know, Amazon has been trying to crack

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Speaker 1: this market for many years, and the difficulty that they

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Speaker 1: have is number one. Obviously, they sell merchandise themselves, so

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Speaker 1: they're competing against merchants. And you know, ever since paypals

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Speaker 1: split away from eBay, uh, their growth has accelerated because

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Speaker 1: that concern that merchants had by doing business with PayPal

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Speaker 1: has gone away. So, I mean, I think the reaction

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Speaker 1: is overdone. I mean, I feel PayPal has been beating

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Speaker 1: back all competitors and its growth has been accelerating in

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Speaker 1: recent years. Of anything David, can you explain this sort

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Speaker 1: of the finances behind doing this. Let's say that someone

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Speaker 1: listening is a producer of a product and they wish

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Speaker 1: to sell it through Amazon. How much does it cost

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Speaker 1: for Amazon to take care of the transaction? Yeah? Amazon,

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Speaker 1: you know, they don't publish their specific cost, but you

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Speaker 1: can assume just like any other very large merchant like

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Speaker 1: Walmart or Target for example, they are getting favorable rates

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Speaker 1: from the credit card processors to process credit and debit

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Speaker 1: card transactions on their site. So they do have that advantage. Um.

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Speaker 1: But right now, the way it works is, you know

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Speaker 1: they're going to charge a merchant, say three rate to

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Speaker 1: process and transaction, just like PayPal does. But then you

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Speaker 1: know they have to turn around. They're they're basically acting

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Speaker 1: as the merchant in that case, so they have to

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Speaker 1: turn around and pay the cost back through the payment

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Speaker 1: card network to take that transaction. So um, so they're

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Speaker 1: not making a full margin on it. And that's where

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Speaker 1: PayPal differs in one key respect is that a lot

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Speaker 1: of folks keep a balance in their PayPal account, so

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Speaker 1: you use that balance to pay, or you use your

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Speaker 1: link to checking account to pay. There's little or no

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Speaker 1: cost in that transaction to PayPal and they're making that

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Speaker 1: full margin from the merchant rate that they're charging. Okay,

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Speaker 1: well that goes that dovetails perfectly into another Amazon initiative

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Speaker 1: people have talked about, speculated frankly, that Amazon will try

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Speaker 1: to get into the customer deposits business, perhaps to compete

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Speaker 1: more directly with the PayPal on this matter. Do you

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Speaker 1: think that they can make inroads into that effect? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean, what's really surprising is how important trust is

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Speaker 1: in this business. Um PayPal consistently ranks right up there

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Speaker 1: with major banks in terms of trust in holding their

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Speaker 1: money and handling their money, which is not something you

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Speaker 1: necessarily think would be the case. But when you've been

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Speaker 1: at it, you know, for twenty years like they have.

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Speaker 1: It sounds silly to say that's an old company, but

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Speaker 1: in the tech world it is. Um you know, they

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Speaker 1: they had that built in advantage. I'm not sure that

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Speaker 1: Amazon people think of it the same way they think

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Speaker 1: of as a neat place to buy stuff. And you know,

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Speaker 1: Amazon's pretty successfully provided a lot of financial services very

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Speaker 1: well through third parties. You know, they have a card

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Speaker 1: with Synchrony and they have a card with Chase that

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Speaker 1: pays a big five percent rebate. That's real popular. Um,

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Speaker 1: you know, I'm not I'm not sure. And there's plenty

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Speaker 1: of ways to add cash into your Amazon account. You know,

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Speaker 1: you just go, you just go buy a prepaid card

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Speaker 1: and moad that money in. And um, you know they

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Speaker 1: have for a debit rewards program now too, So I

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Speaker 1: kind of feel like they're already doing a lot of

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Speaker 1: these things, Dave. What's been the response of Visa and MasterCard?

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Speaker 1: They gonna go the PayPal route? Uh? In terms of well,

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Speaker 1: you know, Visa and master Card have their own, um

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Speaker 1: call them alternative pay buttons that they've been trying to

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Speaker 1: push in recent years, and none of them have really

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Speaker 1: gotten any traction. And you can also throw Apple pay

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Speaker 1: and Samsung Paying, these other alternatives into the mix. Um,

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Speaker 1: at least in the US, they really struggled to gain

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Speaker 1: gain traction. Whereas you know, PayPal's got coming up on

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Speaker 1: twenty million global merchants that excepted as payment. It's really

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Speaker 1: pretty astounding. Amazon, of course, has a hundred million Prime

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Speaker 1: members though, And I want to just home in quickly

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Speaker 1: on the trust issue. Are you implying that consumers don't

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Speaker 1: trust Amazon? No, I'm not employing. They don't trust Amazon,

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Speaker 1: but it's it's one thing. If you're looking to expand

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Speaker 1: further into financial services and holding people's money, I think

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Speaker 1: you're crossing into a little bit different area than Look,

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Speaker 1: I know I'm paying for something and I'm using my

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Speaker 1: my credit card, but that credit card it is from

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Speaker 1: Chase and they're the ones providing the the actual relationship

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Speaker 1: behind that. All right, we want to leave it there,

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Speaker 1: but thanks very much for sharing this information. But it's

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Speaker 1: very interesting and Lisa, as you describe it, the Amazon effect,

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Speaker 1: all they have to do is sort of mention that

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Speaker 1: they're going to be getting into some particular industry. In

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Speaker 1: the stocks of the competitors all react. Yeah. Although it's

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Speaker 1: interesting because when I listened to Dave ritt Or, it

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Speaker 1: really I realized that perhaps this offers up some opportunities

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Speaker 1: to people who are still bullish on specific companies if

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Speaker 1: they think that the if the effect is overdone right indeed,

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Speaker 1: and taking a look at the shares of PayPal, for example,

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Speaker 1: they are down about one percent right now after falling

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Speaker 1: up more than four percent and yesterday's trading. Thanks very

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Speaker 1: much to Dave Ritter, our senior analysts for payments, financial

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Speaker 1: Technology and specialty finance or Bloomberg Intelligence. The world of

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Speaker 1: advertising changes as technology and consumers change their taste, but

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Speaker 1: some things don't change, and that's the emphasis on creativity.

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Speaker 1: John Cyford is the worldwide chairman and the chief executive

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Speaker 1: of Ogilvie and Mather. He joins US now Ogilvie and

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Speaker 1: Mather one of the many companies under the overall corporate

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Speaker 1: banner of w PP Group. John, thank you very much

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Speaker 1: for coming into the studio. Much appreciated. Could you just

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Speaker 1: give people a little sort of maybe a thirty second

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Speaker 1: history of Ogilvie and Mather because they may not recall

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Speaker 1: that they came up with the Dove soap commercial that

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Speaker 1: was kind of that was one of the hallmarks of

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Speaker 1: your agency. But the history goes back to eighteen fifty. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's a it's an amazing history. Um. I remember it

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Speaker 1: really in the context of that's when David Ogilvie started

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Speaker 1: Ogilvie and May there in New York. We'll celebrate our

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Speaker 1: seventieth anniversary this coming September, and uh, you know, I'm

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Speaker 1: the ninth chairman and CEO of the company. I'll be

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Speaker 1: the last one to have been mentored by all the

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Speaker 1: previous eight, including David. So it's a founder brand that

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Speaker 1: I have huge passion and heart for. In terms of background,

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Speaker 1: we've David had a list of the clients that he

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Speaker 1: wanted to work for, and uh, he pretty much ticked

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Speaker 1: off everybody on that list. He wanted to work for

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Speaker 1: the Campbell soup company, he wanted to work for Lever Brothers.

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Speaker 1: Dove has been a valued client of ours for right

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Speaker 1: from the beginning. American Expressican Express, which is a client

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Speaker 1: that I've worked with for the last thirty years. You know,

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Speaker 1: David was told that American Express was too small by

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Speaker 1: his president at the time, and David ignored that advice

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Speaker 1: and said, no, I think they're I think these people

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Speaker 1: will do something special, and they certainly did. So. There's

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Speaker 1: been a lot of changes just in the way that

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Speaker 1: people absorbed media in the past two decades. I'm wondering, Uh,

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Speaker 1: just in the past few years, what do you view

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Speaker 1: as the biggest changed for you in your business as

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Speaker 1: far as just reading the message of a brand. Well,

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Speaker 1: we call this the era era of great fragmentation. There

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Speaker 1: have been never been more ways to reach people than

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Speaker 1: ever before. Obviously, the digital revolution has ushered in all

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Speaker 1: sorts of new way ways to engage consumers, and one

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Speaker 1: of the paradoxes of all that choice is that many

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Speaker 1: of our clients are are less confident in what works.

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Speaker 1: And so we're in an era right now where there's

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Speaker 1: lots of experimentation, lots of new ways to build brands

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Speaker 1: through digital engagement, through new new media sources, through personalization,

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Speaker 1: through the big data, and how that can be applied

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Speaker 1: to customizing products just to the particular need of a

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Speaker 1: given customer. But at the same time, many clients are saying,

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Speaker 1: what's how does it all work together? How much should

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Speaker 1: I pay for it? And what's the real value that

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Speaker 1: I'm going to get at the end of the day.

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Speaker 1: And so it's never been more complicated to help clients

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Speaker 1: navigate this this new era. In navigating this new era,

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Speaker 1: you must also recognize that what appears on the Internet

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Speaker 1: is in no way verifiable anymore. I mean, we we

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Speaker 1: have entered the age in which we really do not

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Speaker 1: know what is behind much of the information and the

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Speaker 1: advertising that we see. We don't know who pays for it,

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Speaker 1: we don't know why we see it. All of these things.

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Speaker 1: Do you then have to reinvigorate the what we believe

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Speaker 1: and how we behave ethos of Ogilvy. In fact, I

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Speaker 1: think it's that is the only antidote we have for

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Speaker 1: what some might call this lack of transparency in terms

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Speaker 1: of of of how things show up. You have to

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Speaker 1: believe from where they come. So brand ownership and brand

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Speaker 1: trust never been more vital. And look at the social

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Speaker 1: platforms now right. You know, these are companies that were

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Speaker 1: deemed the companies of the future, the ones that we

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Speaker 1: could all believe in, because they were ushering in this

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Speaker 1: new level of engagement and openness. And yet it's never

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Speaker 1: been harder to kind of be confident that what they

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Speaker 1: represent you can count on, you can believe in. And

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Speaker 1: so it's it isn't It is an aspect of the

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Speaker 1: paradox we live in. So as you speak, I just

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Speaker 1: keep hearing Facebook, Facebook, Facebook, over and over again in

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Speaker 1: my head. I'm just wondering, have you seen any shift

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Speaker 1: in your clients away from Facebook in the wake of

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Speaker 1: the Cambridge Analytica issues. So one of my clients told

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Speaker 1: me that they were at the University of Alabama and

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Speaker 1: they asked a graduating class. So in a light of

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Speaker 1: all of these issues with Facebook, are you you know,

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Speaker 1: are you coming off Facebook and not using it? Not

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Speaker 1: a single hand went up. And so I think one

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Speaker 1: of the things that we're going to face is it

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Speaker 1: is this fundamentally going to change consumer behavior? And and

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Speaker 1: I think the jury is still out on that. I mean,

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Speaker 1: right now, these platforms are so ingrained in people's lives

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Speaker 1: that even if flawed, it's hard to give them up.

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Speaker 1: So I think we're gonna we're gonna see a much

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Speaker 1: greater emphasis on verify, verifying and and being a accountable

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Speaker 1: for both the content and the advertising of their peers

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Speaker 1: in these platforms before we see massive exodus of of consumers.

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Speaker 1: Do you believe that we're going to see a simplification

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Speaker 1: in the advertising business. I think if we don't, we're

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Speaker 1: going to have real problems. Uh, the word it is

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Speaker 1: far too complicated. And and I think one of the

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Speaker 1: things that you're going to find, whether you're talking at

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Speaker 1: a holding company level or in the marketing departments of

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Speaker 1: clients and so on, is that we have to simplify

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Speaker 1: the way we work together. You know, we just can't

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Speaker 1: keep fragmenting and assuming that this is all going to

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Speaker 1: naturally come together. Uh, it takes real leadership. If you're

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Speaker 1: in a client organization today and you're trying to manage

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Speaker 1: a brand, and in some cases these clients are managing

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Speaker 1: hundreds of brands. Um, you have to have a simplified

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Speaker 1: way of coming together, bringing the right expertise, the right information,

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Speaker 1: and ultimately the right accountability for the investment that you make.

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Speaker 1: And if we're not part of solving that problem, I

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Speaker 1: think we will we will suffer the consequences. I hear

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Speaker 1: consolidation in that. Perhaps we've got lots more to talk about.

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Speaker 1: Unfortunately we'll have to leave it until next time. John Seifert,

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Speaker 1: thank you so much for joining us. He has worldwide

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Speaker 1: chairman and chief executive of Ogilvie and Mather, which is

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Speaker 1: based in New York. Thanks for listening to the Bloomberg

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Speaker 1: P and L podcast. You can subscribe and listen to

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Speaker 1: interviews at Apple Podcasts, SoundCloud, or whatever podcast platform you prefer.

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Speaker 1: I'm pim Fox. I'm on Twitter at pim Fox. I'm

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Speaker 1: on Twitter at Lisa Abramo wits one. Before the podcast,

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Speaker 1: you can always catch us worldwide on Bloomberg Radio