1 00:00:15,356 --> 00:00:15,796 Speaker 1: Pushkin. 2 00:00:20,396 --> 00:00:23,556 Speaker 2: It isn't often that a writer or any man is 3 00:00:23,596 --> 00:00:26,676 Speaker 2: given an opportunity to destroy a figure he's always hated, 4 00:00:27,476 --> 00:00:30,196 Speaker 2: a character that all his life has cluttered his landscape 5 00:00:30,476 --> 00:00:34,436 Speaker 2: like a slum. And to be able to do so and 6 00:00:34,516 --> 00:00:37,676 Speaker 2: get paid for it to boot is to be doubly blessed. 7 00:00:38,476 --> 00:00:41,396 Speaker 1: The co creator of the greatest television western of all 8 00:00:41,436 --> 00:00:43,916 Speaker 1: time was a man named John Meston. 9 00:00:45,116 --> 00:00:48,916 Speaker 2: My needed figure is the Western hero who rides along 10 00:00:49,276 --> 00:00:53,676 Speaker 2: plomping his guitar, nasily singing a synthetic ballad and looking 11 00:00:53,716 --> 00:00:56,436 Speaker 2: for all the world like a fugitive from a cheap circus. 12 00:00:57,636 --> 00:01:00,516 Speaker 2: I spit in his milk and he llleft to go 13 00:01:00,556 --> 00:01:02,716 Speaker 2: elsewhere to find somebody to pour the lead for his 14 00:01:02,876 --> 00:01:07,636 Speaker 2: golden bullets. Now, the best way to destroy something bad 15 00:01:08,356 --> 00:01:11,516 Speaker 2: is to write it down. Was something better, And I've 16 00:01:11,556 --> 00:01:14,076 Speaker 2: got a guy I think out classes any of these 17 00:01:14,196 --> 00:01:15,156 Speaker 2: phony big heads. 18 00:01:16,596 --> 00:01:20,676 Speaker 1: Meston gave the world gun Smoke, which ran on CBS 19 00:01:20,916 --> 00:01:25,036 Speaker 1: for an astounding twenty seasons from nineteen fifty five to 20 00:01:25,116 --> 00:01:28,436 Speaker 1: nineteen seventy five, one of the most widely watched TV 21 00:01:28,516 --> 00:01:32,276 Speaker 1: shows ever. When it's run finally ended, the La Times 22 00:01:32,316 --> 00:01:36,396 Speaker 1: film critic referred to it as our own Iliad and Odyssey, 23 00:01:36,916 --> 00:01:40,396 Speaker 1: only in the place of Odysseus and Achilles, Meston gave 24 00:01:40,476 --> 00:01:46,476 Speaker 1: us Matt Dillon, lanky, laconic, impossibly brave, one of the 25 00:01:46,516 --> 00:01:49,996 Speaker 1: great reluctant heroes in television history. 26 00:01:52,156 --> 00:01:54,956 Speaker 2: This hair is probably red. If he's got any left. 27 00:01:56,596 --> 00:02:00,276 Speaker 2: He'd be handsomer than he is if he had better manners. 28 00:02:00,396 --> 00:02:03,316 Speaker 2: But life and his enemies have left him looking a 29 00:02:03,356 --> 00:02:07,756 Speaker 2: little beat up. And I suppose having seen his mother 30 00:02:07,956 --> 00:02:11,156 Speaker 2: back about eighteen four body struggling to take a bath 31 00:02:11,196 --> 00:02:14,996 Speaker 2: in a wooden washtub with a fully undressing left his 32 00:02:15,076 --> 00:02:19,476 Speaker 2: soul a little warped. Anyway, they'd have to be something 33 00:02:19,516 --> 00:02:21,876 Speaker 2: wrong with him, or he wouldn't have hired on as 34 00:02:21,876 --> 00:02:24,396 Speaker 2: a United States Marshal and the heyday of Dives City, 35 00:02:24,516 --> 00:02:29,116 Speaker 2: Kansas Dodge at that time was the wildest town in America, 36 00:02:29,996 --> 00:02:32,996 Speaker 2: and it was populated by men just as warped and 37 00:02:33,116 --> 00:02:34,596 Speaker 2: more so than Matt Dillon. 38 00:02:36,996 --> 00:02:40,316 Speaker 1: My name is Malcolm Gladwell. You're listening to Revisionist History, 39 00:02:40,516 --> 00:02:45,956 Speaker 1: my podcast about things overlooked and misunderstood. This episode is 40 00:02:45,956 --> 00:02:50,356 Speaker 1: about Westerns and the long shadow they've cast across American life. 41 00:02:51,236 --> 00:02:54,836 Speaker 1: It's possible you've never thought about westerns, maybe you've never 42 00:02:54,916 --> 00:02:59,636 Speaker 1: even seen one, but your parents and particularly your grandparents 43 00:02:59,916 --> 00:03:04,236 Speaker 1: most certainly did. In the mid nineteen fifties, westerns took 44 00:03:04,356 --> 00:03:07,916 Speaker 1: up a third of all evening television viewing time. If 45 00:03:07,956 --> 00:03:10,156 Speaker 1: you lived in a major city, lake New York, you 46 00:03:10,196 --> 00:03:13,356 Speaker 1: had your choice of fifty one different westerns in a 47 00:03:13,396 --> 00:03:17,196 Speaker 1: given week. And what were westerns? Well, they were stories 48 00:03:17,196 --> 00:03:20,036 Speaker 1: about big strong men. The heroes of the top six 49 00:03:20,076 --> 00:03:23,476 Speaker 1: westerns of nineteen sixty two averaged six foot four and 50 00:03:23,516 --> 00:03:27,276 Speaker 1: two hundred and ten pounds, white, big strong men. There 51 00:03:27,316 --> 00:03:30,316 Speaker 1: wasn't a lot of ethnic variation in the TV Western. 52 00:03:30,596 --> 00:03:33,476 Speaker 1: There weren't a lot of women or families, even though 53 00:03:33,596 --> 00:03:36,156 Speaker 1: the reason all those pioneers moved to the Wild West 54 00:03:36,396 --> 00:03:39,636 Speaker 1: was of course to provide a better life for their families. 55 00:03:40,276 --> 00:03:44,756 Speaker 1: There wasn't a lot of moral ambiguity or introspection or 56 00:03:44,836 --> 00:03:49,196 Speaker 1: shades of gray. These were action shows. But what was 57 00:03:49,236 --> 00:03:52,396 Speaker 1: there a lot of There were a lot of guns. 58 00:03:54,796 --> 00:03:57,556 Speaker 1: And in this installment of our series on gun violence, 59 00:03:57,876 --> 00:04:00,356 Speaker 1: I want to figure out what it means that an 60 00:04:00,636 --> 00:04:04,516 Speaker 1: entire generation of Americans grew up watching a world in 61 00:04:04,556 --> 00:04:08,116 Speaker 1: which big strong men shot at each other. With guns 62 00:04:08,716 --> 00:04:11,356 Speaker 1: in the act absence of any kind of cultural or 63 00:04:11,436 --> 00:04:17,516 Speaker 1: moral or psychological ambiguity. Our case study gun Smoke, the 64 00:04:17,556 --> 00:04:21,556 Speaker 1: greatest of all the TV westerns, and one episode in particular, 65 00:04:22,356 --> 00:04:30,316 Speaker 1: Season one, episode eight Kites Reward. Picture a long, dusty 66 00:04:30,356 --> 00:04:34,036 Speaker 1: street straight out of the Old West, downtown Dodge City, 67 00:04:34,396 --> 00:04:37,516 Speaker 1: the most infamous of the cattle towns of the eighteen seventies. 68 00:04:38,116 --> 00:04:43,276 Speaker 1: Long row of ramshackle wooden buildings, bars, stables, a general store, 69 00:04:43,556 --> 00:04:47,716 Speaker 1: cowboys sauntering to and fro. Our hero Matt Dillon is 70 00:04:47,756 --> 00:04:51,116 Speaker 1: sitting on a porch talking to his friend Chester. They 71 00:04:51,156 --> 00:04:55,316 Speaker 1: spot a man, a stranger, lurking around the long Branch saloon. 72 00:04:55,676 --> 00:05:00,396 Speaker 1: Then a second stranger, much younger, handsome, blonde, approaches on 73 00:05:00,556 --> 00:05:03,076 Speaker 1: horseback and dismounts. 74 00:05:03,596 --> 00:05:03,996 Speaker 3: Who's that. 75 00:05:13,236 --> 00:05:15,356 Speaker 2: Some betrayal hand come to lose his wages? 76 00:05:16,236 --> 00:05:22,116 Speaker 1: Probably The blonde man walks into a bar orders a beer. 77 00:05:22,436 --> 00:05:25,156 Speaker 1: The older man, the one who had been lurking, follows 78 00:05:25,236 --> 00:05:28,476 Speaker 1: him in, pulls out a sick shooter and says, in 79 00:05:28,476 --> 00:05:33,116 Speaker 1: that biting tone peculiar to this era of TV villain, turn. 80 00:05:32,956 --> 00:05:42,636 Speaker 2: Around, keep your hand away from that gun. I'm gonna 81 00:05:42,676 --> 00:05:43,396 Speaker 2: take your gun. 82 00:05:44,436 --> 00:05:45,116 Speaker 4: No, you're not. 83 00:05:47,476 --> 00:05:49,436 Speaker 5: You want to die, don't matter none to me. 84 00:05:51,396 --> 00:05:53,796 Speaker 6: Go ahead, all right, But. 85 00:05:53,796 --> 00:05:55,956 Speaker 1: The young man is much too quick for his foe. 86 00:05:56,196 --> 00:05:59,156 Speaker 1: He pulls out his revolver in what seems like a heartbeat. 87 00:06:00,436 --> 00:06:03,956 Speaker 1: His pursuer lies dead on the floor just as the 88 00:06:04,036 --> 00:06:07,316 Speaker 1: man of the law, Marshall Matt Dillon, comes rushing in 89 00:06:08,156 --> 00:06:08,756 Speaker 1: self defense. 90 00:06:08,796 --> 00:06:14,556 Speaker 4: Marshall, I want your gun. I ain't right of a 91 00:06:14,636 --> 00:06:18,676 Speaker 4: self defense, pure and simple. I said, I want your gun, 92 00:06:24,556 --> 00:06:25,556 Speaker 4: all right, take it. 93 00:06:26,476 --> 00:06:31,876 Speaker 1: And Matt Dylan takes his gun away. Now let's pause 94 00:06:31,956 --> 00:06:36,836 Speaker 1: here because this is a hugely significant moment. First thing, 95 00:06:37,156 --> 00:06:40,076 Speaker 1: maybe an obvious thing, this whole scene is very American. 96 00:06:40,716 --> 00:06:43,036 Speaker 1: CBS made a Western sett in Canada at around the 97 00:06:43,036 --> 00:06:45,756 Speaker 1: same time. It was about a mountain named Sergeant Preston 98 00:06:46,156 --> 00:06:49,196 Speaker 1: who went around saving damsels in distress with the aid 99 00:06:49,276 --> 00:06:54,196 Speaker 1: of an adorable dog named King. Sergeant Preston never resorted 100 00:06:54,236 --> 00:06:57,716 Speaker 1: to violence. He relied on his wit, his courage, and 101 00:06:57,756 --> 00:07:01,796 Speaker 1: the assistance of his adorable dog King. How did every 102 00:07:01,916 --> 00:07:06,716 Speaker 1: episode end? Sergeant Preston turns to King and says, well, King, 103 00:07:07,156 --> 00:07:10,716 Speaker 1: this case is closed. I mean, how Canadian is that? 104 00:07:11,076 --> 00:07:14,476 Speaker 1: It's one of my greatest regrets that during my Canadian childhood. 105 00:07:14,596 --> 00:07:16,956 Speaker 1: We didn't have a television in our house, and so 106 00:07:16,996 --> 00:07:18,716 Speaker 1: I never got a chance to learn of the role 107 00:07:19,356 --> 00:07:25,276 Speaker 1: large fluffy dogs played in Taming the Canadian North. Oh, 108 00:07:25,996 --> 00:07:30,236 Speaker 1: but gun smoke, that's a different story. Episodes of gun 109 00:07:30,276 --> 00:07:33,996 Speaker 1: Smoke did not end with Matt Dillon saying good Doggie, 110 00:07:34,596 --> 00:07:38,876 Speaker 1: Good dogie. Second thing, why do we care so much 111 00:07:39,076 --> 00:07:43,836 Speaker 1: about gun smoke? Because, and this is important, I'm trying 112 00:07:43,836 --> 00:07:46,636 Speaker 1: to solve a puzzle having to do with the twenty 113 00:07:46,756 --> 00:07:49,996 Speaker 1: twenty two case of New York State Pistol and Rifle 114 00:07:50,036 --> 00:07:54,676 Speaker 1: Association the Bruin the Landmark decision, where the Supreme Court 115 00:07:54,756 --> 00:07:58,436 Speaker 1: ruled that a New York state law restricting handgun licenses 116 00:07:58,876 --> 00:08:02,956 Speaker 1: was unconstitutional. If you listen to the first episode of 117 00:08:02,996 --> 00:08:05,836 Speaker 1: this mini series, which I dearly hope you do before 118 00:08:05,876 --> 00:08:08,876 Speaker 1: you listen to this one, you'll know I have strong 119 00:08:08,956 --> 00:08:12,876 Speaker 1: feeling about the Court's infatuation in that case with a 120 00:08:12,916 --> 00:08:17,556 Speaker 1: certain disputatious seventeenth century slave trader named Sir John Knight. 121 00:08:18,196 --> 00:08:22,556 Speaker 1: But here we are concerned with a broader puzzle. It 122 00:08:22,636 --> 00:08:27,396 Speaker 1: came during oral arguments. Oral arguments are a big deal. 123 00:08:28,036 --> 00:08:31,716 Speaker 1: Lawyers of both sides gathered to present their arguments publicly 124 00:08:32,156 --> 00:08:36,956 Speaker 1: before all the assembled justices. Arguments are tested, questions are asked, 125 00:08:37,196 --> 00:08:39,836 Speaker 1: the whole thing goes on for hours. It's Daniel in 126 00:08:39,916 --> 00:08:43,236 Speaker 1: the Lions, then one lawyer versus nine of the keenest 127 00:08:43,316 --> 00:08:49,516 Speaker 1: legal minds in the country. So November third, twenty twenty one, 128 00:08:49,596 --> 00:08:52,076 Speaker 1: the Solicitor General of the State of New York is 129 00:08:52,156 --> 00:08:56,036 Speaker 1: up at the front of the palatial hearing room. Barbara Underwood, 130 00:08:56,596 --> 00:09:00,556 Speaker 1: serious glasses, kindly smile, kind of looks like your grandmother, 131 00:09:00,796 --> 00:09:03,876 Speaker 1: that is, if your grandmother had argued twenty two cases 132 00:09:03,916 --> 00:09:05,196 Speaker 1: before the Supreme Court. 133 00:09:05,796 --> 00:09:10,036 Speaker 7: Mister Chief Justice, and may have please the Court. For centuries, 134 00:09:10,156 --> 00:09:13,636 Speaker 7: English and American law have imposed limits on carrying firearms 135 00:09:13,636 --> 00:09:15,996 Speaker 7: in public and the interest of public safety. 136 00:09:16,636 --> 00:09:19,956 Speaker 1: She begins with a detailed explanation of how New York 137 00:09:19,956 --> 00:09:23,436 Speaker 1: State is justified in not letting anyone carry a handgun 138 00:09:23,516 --> 00:09:27,196 Speaker 1: who wants to carry a handgun. But then she's interrupted 139 00:09:27,476 --> 00:09:31,076 Speaker 1: by Samuel Alito, one of the most conservative members of 140 00:09:31,116 --> 00:09:34,396 Speaker 1: the Court and almost certainly the grumpiest. 141 00:09:35,996 --> 00:09:40,916 Speaker 8: Could I explore what that means for ordinary law biding 142 00:09:41,476 --> 00:09:46,156 Speaker 8: citizens who feel they need to carry a firearm for 143 00:09:46,196 --> 00:09:49,156 Speaker 8: self defense. So I want you to think about people 144 00:09:49,316 --> 00:09:53,436 Speaker 8: like this, people who work late at night in Manhattan. 145 00:09:53,596 --> 00:09:56,276 Speaker 8: It might be somebody who cleans offices, might be a 146 00:09:56,356 --> 00:09:59,636 Speaker 8: doorman at an apartment, might be a nurse or an 147 00:09:59,756 --> 00:10:03,276 Speaker 8: orderly might be somebody who washes dishes. None of these 148 00:10:03,316 --> 00:10:06,916 Speaker 8: people has a criminal record. They're all law biding citizens. 149 00:10:06,996 --> 00:10:11,196 Speaker 8: They get off work around me, maybe even after midnight. 150 00:10:11,236 --> 00:10:15,036 Speaker 8: They have to commute home by subway, maybe by bus. 151 00:10:15,516 --> 00:10:19,556 Speaker 8: When they arrive at the subway station or the bus stop, 152 00:10:20,116 --> 00:10:23,836 Speaker 8: they have to walk some distance through a high crime area. 153 00:10:24,436 --> 00:10:27,276 Speaker 1: They're scared to death, Alito said, So why shouldn't they 154 00:10:27,276 --> 00:10:31,556 Speaker 1: be allowed to carry a handgun on their subway ride home? Now, 155 00:10:32,036 --> 00:10:34,996 Speaker 1: it should be pointed out that Barbara Underwood has spent 156 00:10:35,156 --> 00:10:39,196 Speaker 1: years working in the DA's office in Brooklyn, Manhattan, and Queens. 157 00:10:39,836 --> 00:10:45,156 Speaker 1: She's a New Yorker. She's familiar with the subway. Alito, meanwhile, 158 00:10:45,396 --> 00:10:48,076 Speaker 1: is a kid from New Jersey, went to school at Princeton, 159 00:10:48,236 --> 00:10:50,756 Speaker 1: worked most of his life in the New Jersey suburbs 160 00:10:50,916 --> 00:10:54,956 Speaker 1: before moving to the Washington, DC suburbs. I'm going to 161 00:10:55,036 --> 00:10:56,916 Speaker 1: guess that most of what he knows about the New 162 00:10:56,996 --> 00:11:00,036 Speaker 1: York subway is from old beastie boys. Videos that he 163 00:11:00,116 --> 00:11:05,956 Speaker 1: was trying to stop his kids from watching. So Underwood says, 164 00:11:06,276 --> 00:11:08,676 Speaker 1: as any long time subway rider would say. 165 00:11:09,236 --> 00:11:13,316 Speaker 7: I think the extra problem in Manhattan is that you're 166 00:11:13,396 --> 00:11:19,316 Speaker 7: hypothetical quite appropriately entailed the subways, entailed public transit, and 167 00:11:19,396 --> 00:11:22,796 Speaker 7: there are lots of people on the subways even at midnight. 168 00:11:22,836 --> 00:11:27,276 Speaker 7: As I can say from personal experience and the particular 169 00:11:27,356 --> 00:11:31,116 Speaker 7: specter of a lot of armed people in an enclosed space. 170 00:11:32,116 --> 00:11:35,396 Speaker 8: There are a lot of armed people on the streets 171 00:11:35,396 --> 00:11:37,356 Speaker 8: of New York and in the subways late at night 172 00:11:37,436 --> 00:11:38,236 Speaker 8: right now, aren't there. 173 00:11:40,356 --> 00:11:42,476 Speaker 7: I don't know that there are a lot of armed people. 174 00:11:42,636 --> 00:11:47,036 Speaker 1: No first thing here. Alito clearly thinks New York City 175 00:11:47,356 --> 00:11:50,556 Speaker 1: is some kind of modern day dodge city. It's not, 176 00:11:50,676 --> 00:11:53,116 Speaker 1: of course. It's one of the safest big cities in 177 00:11:53,156 --> 00:11:56,076 Speaker 1: the country. The number of gun crimes per capita in 178 00:11:56,116 --> 00:11:58,556 Speaker 1: New York City is a fraction of what it is 179 00:11:58,596 --> 00:12:04,356 Speaker 1: in say, Jacksonville, Florida, or New Orleans or Birmingham, Alabama, 180 00:12:04,516 --> 00:12:08,196 Speaker 1: or literally dozens and dozens of other American cities. New 181 00:12:08,276 --> 00:12:11,636 Speaker 1: York City is an exception to the general tide of 182 00:12:11,716 --> 00:12:14,396 Speaker 1: violence in the United States, in part because of the 183 00:12:14,476 --> 00:12:17,796 Speaker 1: law that the bruin case seeks to overturn. But whatever, 184 00:12:18,436 --> 00:12:22,436 Speaker 1: something about the idea of New York City makes Justice 185 00:12:22,556 --> 00:12:27,196 Speaker 1: Alito very nervous, and he thinks, as a result, the 186 00:12:27,236 --> 00:12:30,956 Speaker 1: prudent course for any late night commuter is to be 187 00:12:30,996 --> 00:12:35,756 Speaker 1: packing heat. But underward knows different. There are a lot 188 00:12:35,796 --> 00:12:38,396 Speaker 1: of people on the subway even at midnight. As I 189 00:12:38,476 --> 00:12:42,836 Speaker 1: can say from personal experience, lawyers work late, lots and 190 00:12:42,876 --> 00:12:44,996 Speaker 1: lots of times. She's taken the two, or the three 191 00:12:45,116 --> 00:12:47,156 Speaker 1: or the eight train back home at night. She did 192 00:12:47,156 --> 00:12:51,316 Speaker 1: not find the experience as terrifying as Justice Alito apparently 193 00:12:51,556 --> 00:12:55,556 Speaker 1: believes it to be. And as he's talking, she's clearly 194 00:12:55,556 --> 00:13:02,316 Speaker 1: imagining the alternate universe where Alito gets his way. It's 195 00:13:03,036 --> 00:13:06,276 Speaker 1: late at night. There's a confrontation at one end of 196 00:13:06,316 --> 00:13:10,036 Speaker 1: the car. One guy pulls a gun, because per Justice 197 00:13:10,076 --> 00:13:15,836 Speaker 1: Alito's instructions, he's come prepared for anything untoward happening. In response, 198 00:13:16,276 --> 00:13:19,116 Speaker 1: the other guy pulls his gun. The two of them 199 00:13:19,316 --> 00:13:22,356 Speaker 1: starts shooting, but of course they're terrified, and they're spraying 200 00:13:22,396 --> 00:13:26,156 Speaker 1: bullets everywhere because handguns, as even the most devoted gun 201 00:13:26,196 --> 00:13:29,476 Speaker 1: lover will tell you, are really, really hard to shoot accurately. 202 00:13:29,996 --> 00:13:32,916 Speaker 1: Even under the best of circumstances, with people who know 203 00:13:32,956 --> 00:13:36,196 Speaker 1: what they're doing and practice every day. And these are 204 00:13:36,236 --> 00:13:39,036 Speaker 1: not the best of circumstances. And these are not people 205 00:13:39,316 --> 00:13:44,076 Speaker 1: who practice every day. They are in justice Alito's hypothetical doormen, 206 00:13:44,396 --> 00:13:48,356 Speaker 1: nurses and dishwashers, people who have worked long, hard days 207 00:13:48,596 --> 00:13:51,156 Speaker 1: and are exhausted and have kids at home and don't 208 00:13:51,156 --> 00:13:53,436 Speaker 1: exactly have the time to drive to a shooting range 209 00:13:53,436 --> 00:13:56,996 Speaker 1: every weekend and fire through two hundred rounds. So there's 210 00:13:57,036 --> 00:14:00,836 Speaker 1: bullets everywhere, and everyone else on the train is screaming 211 00:14:01,036 --> 00:14:03,436 Speaker 1: and rushing to one end of the car and hammering 212 00:14:03,436 --> 00:14:05,596 Speaker 1: on the doors and climbing over each other to get out, 213 00:14:05,636 --> 00:14:08,396 Speaker 1: but of course they can't. There's glass everywhere because one 214 00:14:08,436 --> 00:14:11,116 Speaker 1: of those errant shots took out a window, blood on 215 00:14:11,196 --> 00:14:13,836 Speaker 1: the floor. A third person and then a fourth pull 216 00:14:13,876 --> 00:14:17,236 Speaker 1: out their handguns because everyone's gotten a handgun fever. And 217 00:14:17,436 --> 00:14:20,156 Speaker 1: just then the chain goes underneath the East River for 218 00:14:20,196 --> 00:14:22,796 Speaker 1: like two minutes and the lights go out, which they 219 00:14:22,836 --> 00:14:27,516 Speaker 1: sometimes do. I mean, I guarantee you, as someone who 220 00:14:27,556 --> 00:14:31,116 Speaker 1: has taken the subways like Barbara Underwood for most of 221 00:14:31,156 --> 00:14:34,996 Speaker 1: my adult life, this is the number one night mercenario 222 00:14:35,476 --> 00:14:40,676 Speaker 1: of every single New Yorker, but not for Samuel Alito 223 00:14:41,196 --> 00:15:02,196 Speaker 1: of Hamilton Township, New Jersey. 224 00:14:52,796 --> 00:14:53,636 Speaker 7: With illegal guns. 225 00:14:53,636 --> 00:14:56,636 Speaker 8: If what I'm talking about, how many illegal guns were 226 00:14:56,636 --> 00:15:02,036 Speaker 8: seized by the New York Police Department last year? Do 227 00:15:02,076 --> 00:15:02,876 Speaker 8: you have any idea? 228 00:15:03,076 --> 00:15:05,596 Speaker 7: I don't have that number, but I'm sure there's it's 229 00:15:05,596 --> 00:15:06,436 Speaker 7: a substantial number. 230 00:15:06,476 --> 00:15:09,116 Speaker 8: But the people are all these people with illegal guns, 231 00:15:09,276 --> 00:15:12,076 Speaker 8: They are on the subway, they're walking around the streets. 232 00:15:12,116 --> 00:15:15,876 Speaker 8: But the ordinary hardworking law bonding people I mentioned, no, 233 00:15:16,276 --> 00:15:17,396 Speaker 8: they can't be armed. 234 00:15:18,716 --> 00:15:21,916 Speaker 1: Samuel Alito is in the grip of a peculiar and 235 00:15:22,076 --> 00:15:25,716 Speaker 1: powerful fantasy. It says that below the surface of one 236 00:15:25,756 --> 00:15:28,516 Speaker 1: of the safest cities in the country, late at night, 237 00:15:29,076 --> 00:15:33,396 Speaker 1: all rules of civilization have been suspended. You're on your own. 238 00:15:34,036 --> 00:15:36,876 Speaker 1: And Barbara Underwood, who no doubt prepared long and hard 239 00:15:36,916 --> 00:15:38,796 Speaker 1: for this day before the highest court in the land, 240 00:15:38,996 --> 00:15:40,996 Speaker 1: does not seem to have prepared for this. I mean, 241 00:15:41,036 --> 00:15:44,476 Speaker 1: who would How would she have guessed that Samuel Alito 242 00:15:44,556 --> 00:15:46,956 Speaker 1: thinks the A train is lord of the flies? 243 00:15:48,196 --> 00:15:50,876 Speaker 7: Well, I think the subways. When there are problems on 244 00:15:50,916 --> 00:15:55,356 Speaker 7: the subways are protected by the transit police. Is what 245 00:15:55,436 --> 00:15:59,076 Speaker 7: happens because the idea of proliferating arms on the subway 246 00:15:59,356 --> 00:16:03,076 Speaker 7: is precisely I think what terrifies a great many people. 247 00:16:06,396 --> 00:16:10,196 Speaker 7: The other point is that proliferating guns in a populated 248 00:16:10,236 --> 00:16:14,516 Speaker 7: area where there is law enforcement jeopardizes law enforcement because 249 00:16:14,556 --> 00:16:18,076 Speaker 7: when they come, they now can't tell who's shooting, and 250 00:16:18,916 --> 00:16:23,636 Speaker 7: the shooting proliferates and accelerates. 251 00:16:24,636 --> 00:16:28,356 Speaker 1: She's trying really, really hard at this point, not just 252 00:16:28,356 --> 00:16:31,436 Speaker 1: to say, are you effing kidding me, Jersey boy? Have 253 00:16:31,596 --> 00:16:35,956 Speaker 1: you ever ridden a subway before? But Barbara Underwood is 254 00:16:35,996 --> 00:16:39,436 Speaker 1: a lawyer of law experience. Her obligation is to her client, 255 00:16:39,796 --> 00:16:44,476 Speaker 1: not her own mounting feelings of incredulity. So she takes 256 00:16:44,476 --> 00:16:46,876 Speaker 1: a deep breath and holds it in. 257 00:16:47,716 --> 00:16:52,876 Speaker 7: And in the end, that's why there's a substantial law 258 00:16:52,956 --> 00:16:58,756 Speaker 7: enforcement interest in not having widespread caring of guns. 259 00:17:00,316 --> 00:17:04,796 Speaker 1: So here's the puzzle. Where did this completely lunatic idea 260 00:17:04,876 --> 00:17:09,676 Speaker 1: come from? How did Samuel Alito legal powerhouse come up 261 00:17:09,676 --> 00:17:12,596 Speaker 1: with this weird, violent fantasy with the best path to 262 00:17:12,676 --> 00:17:15,956 Speaker 1: ensuring the safety of a subway rider is to encourage 263 00:17:15,996 --> 00:17:19,276 Speaker 1: that rider and all of his fellow commuters to stuff 264 00:17:19,316 --> 00:17:22,276 Speaker 1: a handgun in their waistband and face down their assailant 265 00:17:22,556 --> 00:17:25,956 Speaker 1: Mono Amano on the A train as it passes underneath 266 00:17:25,996 --> 00:17:30,996 Speaker 1: the East River. There are countless law review articles devoted 267 00:17:30,996 --> 00:17:33,356 Speaker 1: to the origins of the American love affair with guns, 268 00:17:33,996 --> 00:17:37,076 Speaker 1: histories of the evolution of our thinking about the Second Amendment. 269 00:17:37,676 --> 00:17:41,076 Speaker 1: When confronted with a powerful idea, we assume that it 270 00:17:41,116 --> 00:17:45,796 Speaker 1: has deep and serious roots. But come on, this isn't 271 00:17:45,836 --> 00:17:51,556 Speaker 1: an idea. It's a fantasy. And where do fantasies come 272 00:17:51,596 --> 00:17:55,356 Speaker 1: from from? The stories were told in childhood. When I 273 00:17:55,396 --> 00:17:58,436 Speaker 1: look at grown up Samuel Alito dreaming about bad guys 274 00:17:58,476 --> 00:18:01,596 Speaker 1: on the A train, I think of little Sammy Alito 275 00:18:01,996 --> 00:18:05,836 Speaker 1: growing up in the nineteen fifties in Hamilton Township, New Jersey, 276 00:18:06,556 --> 00:18:09,996 Speaker 1: and I wonder did he watch one to many episodes 277 00:18:10,436 --> 00:18:16,476 Speaker 1: of gun Smoke, in particular episode eight from season one, 278 00:18:16,796 --> 00:18:35,156 Speaker 1: Kites Reward. In the eighteen seventies, cattle would be herded 279 00:18:35,196 --> 00:18:38,876 Speaker 1: to market from Texas to Kansas up to the so 280 00:18:38,996 --> 00:18:42,716 Speaker 1: called cattle towns that were junction points connected to major 281 00:18:42,796 --> 00:18:47,076 Speaker 1: railway lines. The longest lived and most infamous of those 282 00:18:47,116 --> 00:18:52,356 Speaker 1: cattle towns was Dodge City. It sits on the banks 283 00:18:52,356 --> 00:18:55,116 Speaker 1: of the Arkansas River and was connected by rail to 284 00:18:55,196 --> 00:18:59,516 Speaker 1: the east to Kansas City. In its heyday, Dodge City 285 00:18:59,636 --> 00:19:03,476 Speaker 1: was like Fort Lauderdale during spring break, only with a 286 00:19:03,516 --> 00:19:07,076 Speaker 1: fraction of the girls, just lots of young men, alcohol 287 00:19:07,436 --> 00:19:13,756 Speaker 1: and guns. Hundred full time residents, nineteen bars, filled with 288 00:19:14,076 --> 00:19:18,756 Speaker 1: fortune seekers, buffalo hunters, cowboys, gamblers, desperadoes, what they call 289 00:19:18,796 --> 00:19:23,716 Speaker 1: in Western's hard characters. Here's a typical Dodge City story 290 00:19:24,076 --> 00:19:27,516 Speaker 1: that appeared in the Witchtop Beacon in November of eighteen 291 00:19:27,556 --> 00:19:32,556 Speaker 1: seventy two. Three or four Texas men, the paper reported, 292 00:19:33,036 --> 00:19:35,876 Speaker 1: took over the Kelly and Hunt dance hall. One of 293 00:19:35,876 --> 00:19:38,876 Speaker 1: them made whiskey and sugar free to everybody, while the 294 00:19:38,916 --> 00:19:42,796 Speaker 1: others kept up the dance music and condiments until daylight. 295 00:19:43,636 --> 00:19:46,196 Speaker 1: I think you're getting the picture. The article goes on. 296 00:19:46,676 --> 00:19:50,116 Speaker 1: The dance room was also occupied by a gambling outfit. 297 00:19:50,756 --> 00:19:54,596 Speaker 1: Oh okay, One of the Texas men who were giving 298 00:19:54,636 --> 00:19:57,156 Speaker 1: away the free booze and sugar accuses one of the 299 00:19:57,156 --> 00:20:00,836 Speaker 1: gamblers of cheating end quote, grabbed up the entire wealth 300 00:20:00,916 --> 00:20:05,356 Speaker 1: of the concern to appropriate it unquote, whereupon one of 301 00:20:05,356 --> 00:20:09,236 Speaker 1: the gamblers fractured skull of one of the Texans with 302 00:20:09,276 --> 00:20:12,276 Speaker 1: a six shooter. He dies the cowboys come to the 303 00:20:12,316 --> 00:20:14,916 Speaker 1: aid of their fallen comrade. There's a gun battle, two 304 00:20:14,956 --> 00:20:18,076 Speaker 1: more shot dead, a third wounded. The bodies are thrown 305 00:20:18,076 --> 00:20:21,996 Speaker 1: out onto the street, and here's the crucial detail, the 306 00:20:22,036 --> 00:20:28,516 Speaker 1: party goes merrily on. That's Dodge City. As you can imagine, 307 00:20:28,636 --> 00:20:31,476 Speaker 1: the tabloids of the era couldn't get enough of this. 308 00:20:32,276 --> 00:20:34,916 Speaker 1: The expression, which I'm sure you've heard, We've got to 309 00:20:34,956 --> 00:20:39,436 Speaker 1: get out of Dodge is a reference to Dodge City. 310 00:20:40,436 --> 00:20:43,876 Speaker 1: So what is gun Smoke. It's a TV show set 311 00:20:43,916 --> 00:20:46,956 Speaker 1: in Dodge City, where the hero, Matt Dillon, has the 312 00:20:47,076 --> 00:20:50,716 Speaker 1: job of restoring law and order amidst the mayhem. Every 313 00:20:50,756 --> 00:20:53,476 Speaker 1: other episode begins with a shot of Dylan squaring off 314 00:20:53,516 --> 00:20:56,476 Speaker 1: against a bad guy in the main street of Dodge 315 00:20:56,516 --> 00:20:59,836 Speaker 1: He outdraws him, shoots the bad guy dead. Then after 316 00:20:59,836 --> 00:21:03,036 Speaker 1: the credits, we see Dylan walking through a cemetery where 317 00:21:03,076 --> 00:21:06,836 Speaker 1: all the many dead are buried, and in voiceover, delivering 318 00:21:06,996 --> 00:21:10,956 Speaker 1: a little homily about the enormous weight on his shoulders. 319 00:21:11,756 --> 00:21:15,036 Speaker 5: They all drifted here to Dodge City one time or another. 320 00:21:15,636 --> 00:21:20,396 Speaker 5: The buffalo killers, the saddle bums, the spoilers. It's the 321 00:21:20,476 --> 00:21:22,396 Speaker 5: end of the track and the start of the wilderness, 322 00:21:22,476 --> 00:21:25,356 Speaker 5: the dumping ground of odds and ands and beginnings and leftovers. 323 00:21:25,876 --> 00:21:27,716 Speaker 5: It's a place to stop and take the kind of 324 00:21:27,756 --> 00:21:30,716 Speaker 5: pleasure you need. It's a place to pass through, and 325 00:21:30,796 --> 00:21:33,836 Speaker 5: sometimes it's a place to die. 326 00:21:35,276 --> 00:21:39,996 Speaker 1: So episode eight, Season one, Kite's Reward. The young blonde 327 00:21:40,036 --> 00:21:43,076 Speaker 1: man's name is Andy. He's just shot the stranger dead. 328 00:21:43,556 --> 00:21:46,396 Speaker 1: Dylan has taken his gun. They go back to Dylan's 329 00:21:46,436 --> 00:21:48,716 Speaker 1: office where Andy is giving a lecture. 330 00:21:49,156 --> 00:21:51,316 Speaker 3: Trouble sure come running after you in a hurry, didn't it. 331 00:21:51,676 --> 00:21:54,476 Speaker 4: What's a man supposed to do in this town? Stand 332 00:21:54,516 --> 00:21:56,236 Speaker 4: there and take a belly full of bullets? 333 00:21:56,996 --> 00:21:59,916 Speaker 1: Then Dylan says, I can give you back your gun, 334 00:22:00,356 --> 00:22:02,836 Speaker 1: but I think you shouldn't wear one anymore. You're too 335 00:22:02,876 --> 00:22:05,756 Speaker 1: good with it. You're going to get a reputation. People 336 00:22:05,756 --> 00:22:07,396 Speaker 1: will come after you to see if they can. 337 00:22:07,356 --> 00:22:17,116 Speaker 3: Best you on Sandy. That's happening to you. Anybody who 338 00:22:17,156 --> 00:22:18,756 Speaker 3: can use a gun the way you can has to 339 00:22:18,756 --> 00:22:23,236 Speaker 3: make a choice. You can go on using it, or 340 00:22:23,316 --> 00:22:24,356 Speaker 3: you can quit before you. 341 00:22:24,276 --> 00:22:25,116 Speaker 2: Get blood all of you. 342 00:22:26,236 --> 00:22:28,876 Speaker 1: They have a heart to heart. Dylan is the wise 343 00:22:28,916 --> 00:22:32,956 Speaker 1: father figure Andy clearly never had. Dylan, why don't you 344 00:22:33,036 --> 00:22:36,876 Speaker 1: quit wearing it? Andy, I don't know, I'd feel kind 345 00:22:36,876 --> 00:22:37,756 Speaker 1: of naked, I guess. 346 00:22:38,516 --> 00:22:41,996 Speaker 3: Dylan persists, that's gonna be one man after the other 347 00:22:42,116 --> 00:22:43,876 Speaker 3: from now on. You're gonna have to kill, whether you 348 00:22:43,956 --> 00:22:46,756 Speaker 3: like it or not. But I'm not gonna watch it. 349 00:22:48,356 --> 00:22:48,516 Speaker 2: Now. 350 00:22:48,556 --> 00:22:49,196 Speaker 4: You leave that. 351 00:22:49,156 --> 00:22:50,876 Speaker 3: Gun off, or you get out of dodge and go 352 00:22:50,956 --> 00:22:52,196 Speaker 3: do your killing somewhere else. 353 00:22:53,276 --> 00:22:57,796 Speaker 1: Finally, Andy agrees, unbuckles his gun belt, hands over his 354 00:22:57,836 --> 00:23:02,116 Speaker 1: six shooter and holster. All right, let's pause once again 355 00:23:02,316 --> 00:23:05,876 Speaker 1: because there are so many things to discuss. First of all, 356 00:23:06,076 --> 00:23:08,996 Speaker 1: let's deal with the non trivial matter of the homicide 357 00:23:08,996 --> 00:23:12,916 Speaker 1: that just occurred inside the Long Branch Saloon. To help 358 00:23:12,916 --> 00:23:16,396 Speaker 1: put this event in some kind of statistical perspective, I 359 00:23:16,476 --> 00:23:20,516 Speaker 1: recruited the services of my very able assistant and producer, 360 00:23:21,116 --> 00:23:27,116 Speaker 1: Tali Emma. Okay, so I a couple of weeks ago, 361 00:23:27,196 --> 00:23:31,236 Speaker 1: I gave you an assignment. Just just describe. Describe First 362 00:23:31,236 --> 00:23:31,836 Speaker 1: the assignment. 363 00:23:32,676 --> 00:23:36,556 Speaker 9: So the assignment was to watch Well, first you said 364 00:23:36,596 --> 00:23:41,676 Speaker 9: to watch all of gun Smoke, which is bitish. Yeah, 365 00:23:41,716 --> 00:23:44,996 Speaker 9: it's like twenty seasons something like that. But then the 366 00:23:45,036 --> 00:23:48,596 Speaker 9: assignment turned into watching the first two seasons of gun Smoke. 367 00:23:49,356 --> 00:23:54,156 Speaker 1: Tally ordered the complete Gun Smoke collection on DVD. Do 368 00:23:54,196 --> 00:23:55,996 Speaker 1: you even know what a DVD is? 369 00:23:56,116 --> 00:23:56,236 Speaker 4: Like? 370 00:23:56,476 --> 00:23:58,796 Speaker 1: This is like so prior generation. 371 00:24:00,036 --> 00:24:02,556 Speaker 9: Oh, I grew up watching DVDs. 372 00:24:02,796 --> 00:24:03,876 Speaker 1: Just check just check it. 373 00:24:05,076 --> 00:24:07,556 Speaker 9: But I don't. I don't have a DVD player. So 374 00:24:07,836 --> 00:24:10,476 Speaker 9: I got the DVDs and and then I wound up 375 00:24:10,476 --> 00:24:14,596 Speaker 9: having to watch on my roommate's PS four, which was 376 00:24:14,676 --> 00:24:15,396 Speaker 9: kind of funny. 377 00:24:15,876 --> 00:24:18,076 Speaker 1: This is the first time in human history someone watched 378 00:24:18,076 --> 00:24:22,836 Speaker 1: gun Smoke on a PS four I think it's that station. 379 00:24:24,076 --> 00:24:27,716 Speaker 1: There are thirty nine episodes per season, so Talie watched 380 00:24:28,036 --> 00:24:33,356 Speaker 1: seventy eight in total, a statistically representative sample. Yeah. 381 00:24:33,396 --> 00:24:38,596 Speaker 9: So the assignment was to watch every episode and make 382 00:24:38,596 --> 00:24:41,556 Speaker 9: a note of anytime there's a gun shot and anytime 383 00:24:41,596 --> 00:24:45,156 Speaker 9: there's a homicide. So I counted anytime somebody was killed 384 00:24:46,236 --> 00:24:52,036 Speaker 9: on purpose. So there's a few instances of someone accidentally 385 00:24:52,076 --> 00:24:55,676 Speaker 9: getting shot, and I didn't count that as homicide and was. 386 00:24:56,956 --> 00:25:01,036 Speaker 1: And then you created a kind of an Excel spreadsheet. Yeah, 387 00:25:01,676 --> 00:25:08,716 Speaker 1: and in which you also described the nature of the shooting. Yes, yes, 388 00:25:09,396 --> 00:25:12,516 Speaker 1: And so give me the give me the bottom line 389 00:25:12,556 --> 00:25:15,956 Speaker 1: on the statistics of number of gunshots and homicides in 390 00:25:15,996 --> 00:25:19,316 Speaker 1: the first two seasons. Of Gun Smoke. 391 00:25:19,996 --> 00:25:23,996 Speaker 9: All right, let me just pull this up really quick, Okay, 392 00:25:24,076 --> 00:25:29,676 Speaker 9: So starting with season one, we had a total of 393 00:25:29,836 --> 00:25:34,436 Speaker 9: two hundred and twelve gun shots in the whole season, 394 00:25:35,356 --> 00:25:40,036 Speaker 9: and this includes gunshots in the air just to scare 395 00:25:40,116 --> 00:25:43,116 Speaker 9: people or something like that. And then of those two 396 00:25:43,196 --> 00:25:47,036 Speaker 9: hundred and twelve, one hundred and thirty two were shots 397 00:25:47,076 --> 00:25:51,876 Speaker 9: specifically pointed at people. There were fifty nine homicides, and 398 00:25:52,036 --> 00:25:55,476 Speaker 9: forty six of those homicides were from gunshots. 399 00:25:56,596 --> 00:25:58,356 Speaker 1: Okay. And then season two. 400 00:25:58,756 --> 00:26:02,116 Speaker 9: So the number of gunshots that I counted for season 401 00:26:02,156 --> 00:26:05,876 Speaker 9: two was one hundred and fifty one. Of those, there 402 00:26:05,916 --> 00:26:12,676 Speaker 9: were fifty two homicides, and of the gunshots in total 403 00:26:12,716 --> 00:26:17,476 Speaker 9: in the season, one hundred and eleven were pointed specifically 404 00:26:17,516 --> 00:26:18,116 Speaker 9: at people. 405 00:26:19,756 --> 00:26:22,076 Speaker 1: As far as I can tell, Tali performed the first 406 00:26:22,076 --> 00:26:27,076 Speaker 1: ever statistically rigorous forensic analysis of the gun Smoke archive, 407 00:26:28,556 --> 00:26:32,116 Speaker 1: you know, telling I went, I used those numbers and 408 00:26:32,196 --> 00:26:36,756 Speaker 1: I calculated independently what the homicide rate per one hundred 409 00:26:36,756 --> 00:26:42,516 Speaker 1: thousand is for the town of Dodge as depicted in 410 00:26:42,556 --> 00:26:47,796 Speaker 1: Gun Smoke, and that works out, given there's twelve hundred 411 00:26:47,876 --> 00:26:51,596 Speaker 1: people in Dodge, a homicide rate of I think forty 412 00:26:51,676 --> 00:26:55,196 Speaker 1: nine hundred and seventeen per hundred thousand, which would be 413 00:26:56,836 --> 00:27:00,036 Speaker 1: like eight times higher than the highest homicide rate in 414 00:27:00,036 --> 00:27:03,716 Speaker 1: any city in the United States. To god, it's like 415 00:27:03,796 --> 00:27:07,316 Speaker 1: the most murderous, it's the most There was one episode 416 00:27:07,316 --> 00:27:08,556 Speaker 1: where eight people were killed. 417 00:27:09,476 --> 00:27:12,276 Speaker 9: Yeah, yeah, that was all it once too. I remember 418 00:27:12,276 --> 00:27:12,956 Speaker 9: that episode. 419 00:27:13,276 --> 00:27:17,716 Speaker 1: That's a mass shooting. Yes, the writers of Gunsmoke were 420 00:27:17,756 --> 00:27:22,716 Speaker 1: committed to portraying Dodge City as a very, very dangerous place. 421 00:27:24,116 --> 00:27:28,396 Speaker 1: Now was dodge in real life that dangerous? Was it 422 00:27:28,596 --> 00:27:31,476 Speaker 1: actually the case that a river of blood flowed through 423 00:27:31,476 --> 00:27:33,836 Speaker 1: the center of Dodge City, Kansas. In the latter half 424 00:27:33,836 --> 00:27:36,996 Speaker 1: of the nineteenth century, there was so much myth making 425 00:27:36,996 --> 00:27:39,756 Speaker 1: that surrounded Dodge City that for the longest time, people 426 00:27:39,756 --> 00:27:43,596 Speaker 1: assumed that the mythical Dodge City and the actual Dodge 427 00:27:43,636 --> 00:27:47,676 Speaker 1: City were the same. This was the wild West. But 428 00:27:47,716 --> 00:27:52,116 Speaker 1: a homicide is a matter of record. Towns, even deeply 429 00:27:52,196 --> 00:27:57,036 Speaker 1: dysfunctional towns, collect death certificates. They have newspapers that report 430 00:27:57,076 --> 00:28:02,116 Speaker 1: on murders, court records that document criminal trials, graveyards where 431 00:28:02,116 --> 00:28:06,316 Speaker 1: people are buried. And in the nineteen sixties, a historian 432 00:28:06,396 --> 00:28:09,036 Speaker 1: named Robert Diykster decided to fact check the claims of 433 00:28:09,356 --> 00:28:14,756 Speaker 1: Dodge City. Here's what he discovered. In eighteen seventy two, 434 00:28:15,196 --> 00:28:18,796 Speaker 1: the year Dodge City was founded, the homicide count was eighteen, 435 00:28:19,596 --> 00:28:22,276 Speaker 1: which in a town of twelve hundred people is nuts, 436 00:28:22,956 --> 00:28:25,116 Speaker 1: but that was before the town had a police force. 437 00:28:25,716 --> 00:28:28,636 Speaker 1: They promptly got themselves a county sheriff, and for the 438 00:28:28,636 --> 00:28:31,676 Speaker 1: next couple of years there are no homicides at all. 439 00:28:32,356 --> 00:28:35,276 Speaker 1: And for the eleven years that follow until the cattle 440 00:28:35,316 --> 00:28:39,916 Speaker 1: trading period ends, Dodge City averages one point six homicides 441 00:28:39,916 --> 00:28:42,596 Speaker 1: a year, which is still a lot for a small town, 442 00:28:42,916 --> 00:28:45,316 Speaker 1: but not that bad for a place that's basically spring 443 00:28:45,356 --> 00:28:50,276 Speaker 1: Break on steroids. The real Dodge City is nothing like 444 00:28:50,316 --> 00:28:53,596 Speaker 1: the mythical Dodge City. The real Dodge City is proof 445 00:28:53,836 --> 00:28:57,356 Speaker 1: that lawn order works. You bring in a lawman and 446 00:28:57,396 --> 00:29:00,516 Speaker 1: the place goes back to normal, which is one hundred 447 00:29:00,516 --> 00:29:04,156 Speaker 1: percent the opposite lesson of television's Dodge City, isn't it 448 00:29:04,836 --> 00:29:07,636 Speaker 1: Gunsmoke says that you can be blessed with a diligent, 449 00:29:07,836 --> 00:29:13,436 Speaker 1: wise rangye, indefatigable, courageous us marshal, the legendary Matt Dillon, 450 00:29:13,676 --> 00:29:16,436 Speaker 1: and he will invariably catch the bad guy and gun 451 00:29:16,516 --> 00:29:18,716 Speaker 1: him down on the street. But at the very thing 452 00:29:18,796 --> 00:29:22,036 Speaker 1: that police are supposed to do and in fact do 453 00:29:22,196 --> 00:29:25,356 Speaker 1: in the real world, that is, stop murders from happening. 454 00:29:25,836 --> 00:29:30,596 Speaker 1: Matt Dillon is helpless. He's the US Marshal for Dodge 455 00:29:30,596 --> 00:29:35,196 Speaker 1: City for twenty seasons, and the bodies just keep piling up. 456 00:29:35,476 --> 00:29:37,676 Speaker 1: He's the head of law enforcement in a town with 457 00:29:37,716 --> 00:29:42,196 Speaker 1: an implied homicide rate eighty times higher than Saint Louis, Missouri, 458 00:29:42,396 --> 00:29:45,756 Speaker 1: the murder capital of the Western world. He's terrible at 459 00:29:45,756 --> 00:29:48,156 Speaker 1: his job. He should have been run out of town, 460 00:29:50,716 --> 00:29:55,196 Speaker 1: and yet he is not, because in the bizarre fantasy 461 00:29:55,276 --> 00:29:58,276 Speaker 1: being peddled by gun Smoke, there are so many bad 462 00:29:58,316 --> 00:30:01,476 Speaker 1: guys and so many guns, and so many shootouts and 463 00:30:01,556 --> 00:30:06,716 Speaker 1: bars that every man must take responsibility for protecting himself. 464 00:30:07,876 --> 00:30:10,316 Speaker 1: If you have a quiet drink at the Long Branch 465 00:30:10,356 --> 00:30:13,316 Speaker 1: saloon and a stranger comes in with an itchy finger, 466 00:30:13,716 --> 00:30:17,076 Speaker 1: you have to be prepared to defend yourself. It's up 467 00:30:17,116 --> 00:30:20,796 Speaker 1: to you, because there's no guarantee that Matt Dillon will 468 00:30:20,876 --> 00:30:24,476 Speaker 1: rush in in time to help you. Now do I 469 00:30:24,556 --> 00:30:29,196 Speaker 1: worry that Lesson reverberated with Little Sammy Alito watching Gun 470 00:30:29,236 --> 00:30:32,316 Speaker 1: Smoke on his parents black and White RCA back in 471 00:30:32,316 --> 00:30:36,996 Speaker 1: Hamilton Downship, New Jersey. Yes, I do. By the way, 472 00:30:37,396 --> 00:30:41,196 Speaker 1: it wasn't just Aledo. Right after Alito goes off on 473 00:30:41,276 --> 00:30:43,476 Speaker 1: his strange rant about the perils of the A train, 474 00:30:43,876 --> 00:30:48,316 Speaker 1: Guess who chimes in justice Brett Cavanaugh. Of course he does. 475 00:30:48,676 --> 00:30:52,636 Speaker 1: Brett Cavanaugh, child of the Washington DC suburbs, whose only 476 00:30:52,716 --> 00:30:56,316 Speaker 1: experience of mass transit was being carpooled to private school 477 00:30:56,596 --> 00:30:58,436 Speaker 1: in the back of his mother's Dodge Mini van. 478 00:30:59,356 --> 00:31:02,076 Speaker 8: What if you're a runner, you say, I run a lot, 479 00:31:03,476 --> 00:31:05,956 Speaker 8: and as you correctly pointed out earlier, there are a 480 00:31:05,996 --> 00:31:07,956 Speaker 8: lot of serious violent crimes on running. 481 00:31:07,996 --> 00:31:08,996 Speaker 7: Pass real problem. 482 00:31:10,396 --> 00:31:14,956 Speaker 1: It's a real problem, just as Kavanaugh now wonders if 483 00:31:14,996 --> 00:31:17,636 Speaker 1: the Runners of New York would be well served stropping 484 00:31:17,676 --> 00:31:20,556 Speaker 1: on a glock in order to defend themselves against the 485 00:31:20,636 --> 00:31:24,516 Speaker 1: murderous grievances of their fellow joggers as they charge their 486 00:31:24,556 --> 00:31:30,036 Speaker 1: way around the Central Park Reservoir. If Barbara Underwood was 487 00:31:30,076 --> 00:31:34,396 Speaker 1: taken aback by sam Aldo, then Kavanagh, I mean, she's like, 488 00:31:34,876 --> 00:31:38,756 Speaker 1: what is happening? She tries to explain. Have you thought 489 00:31:38,756 --> 00:31:41,716 Speaker 1: about what would happen if New York issued a handgun 490 00:31:42,036 --> 00:31:43,516 Speaker 1: to anyone who wanted one. 491 00:31:44,596 --> 00:31:46,876 Speaker 7: The problem with the shall Issho resumes is that they 492 00:31:47,116 --> 00:31:52,796 Speaker 7: multiply the number of firearms that are being carried in 493 00:31:53,076 --> 00:31:57,476 Speaker 7: very densely populated places, and there is a much higher risk. 494 00:31:57,596 --> 00:32:01,236 Speaker 7: Without assuming any ill intent on the part of the 495 00:32:01,356 --> 00:32:07,836 Speaker 7: carriers of weapons, they greatly proliferate the likelihood that mistakes 496 00:32:07,836 --> 00:32:09,716 Speaker 7: will be made, fights will break out. 497 00:32:10,956 --> 00:32:14,636 Speaker 1: Barbara Underwood dearly does not want to find herself in 498 00:32:14,676 --> 00:32:17,156 Speaker 1: the middle of a gun battle when she walks her 499 00:32:17,196 --> 00:32:20,716 Speaker 1: dog around the reservoir on a Sunday morning. But she's 500 00:32:20,756 --> 00:32:24,356 Speaker 1: not up against a rational argument here. She's up against 501 00:32:24,636 --> 00:32:28,196 Speaker 1: a fantasy, a fantasy shared by a whole group of 502 00:32:28,236 --> 00:32:31,516 Speaker 1: middle aged men on the Supreme Court, the fantasies of 503 00:32:31,556 --> 00:32:34,836 Speaker 1: little boys who once spent too many hours in front 504 00:32:34,876 --> 00:32:47,356 Speaker 1: of the television. The heyday of Dodge City, the real 505 00:32:47,476 --> 00:32:50,756 Speaker 1: Dodge City overlaps with the invention of one of the 506 00:32:50,796 --> 00:32:54,196 Speaker 1: most important firearms of that era, maybe one of the 507 00:32:54,196 --> 00:32:59,396 Speaker 1: top five most important weapons ever, the six shooter, patented 508 00:32:59,436 --> 00:33:03,676 Speaker 1: by Samuel Colt, perfected by mister Smith and mister Wesson. 509 00:33:04,476 --> 00:33:07,036 Speaker 10: So revolvers were fairly easy to get by about eighteen 510 00:33:07,116 --> 00:33:11,196 Speaker 10: fifty but by eighteen seven eighteen eighty, you could order 511 00:33:11,236 --> 00:33:13,316 Speaker 10: them for just a few dollars through a catalog. It 512 00:33:13,396 --> 00:33:16,876 Speaker 10: was incredible the number of revolvers that were in that 513 00:33:16,916 --> 00:33:20,796 Speaker 10: were available and circulating in public as compared to decades past. 514 00:33:21,516 --> 00:33:26,076 Speaker 1: That's the historian Brennan reeves the pistols of the early 515 00:33:26,156 --> 00:33:31,436 Speaker 1: nineteenth century were cumbersome, unreliable, inaccurate. People were more worried 516 00:33:31,476 --> 00:33:34,796 Speaker 1: about bowie knives than they were about handguns. The arrival 517 00:33:34,876 --> 00:33:39,116 Speaker 1: of the revolver changed all that. The inventionable weapon with 518 00:33:39,236 --> 00:33:42,596 Speaker 1: a cylinder filled with bullets that rotates every time the 519 00:33:42,636 --> 00:33:46,796 Speaker 1: trigger is pulled, solved every problem that plagued the nineteenth 520 00:33:46,836 --> 00:33:51,156 Speaker 1: century handgun. So you have a proliferation of a gun 521 00:33:51,156 --> 00:33:55,796 Speaker 1: that is a significant innovation. It's cheap, it's effective, it 522 00:33:55,836 --> 00:33:57,916 Speaker 1: does all kinds of other Can you describe a little 523 00:33:57,956 --> 00:34:00,956 Speaker 1: bit the kind of social and political response to the 524 00:34:00,996 --> 00:34:02,436 Speaker 1: proliferation of the revolver. 525 00:34:03,196 --> 00:34:08,476 Speaker 10: Well, a major response from American people was to talk 526 00:34:08,556 --> 00:34:11,996 Speaker 10: about how sad it was that people were being shot 527 00:34:12,116 --> 00:34:17,276 Speaker 10: all the time. You see a tremendous outpouring of sadness 528 00:34:17,276 --> 00:34:20,756 Speaker 10: and frustration that people are being lives are being lost, 529 00:34:20,796 --> 00:34:24,676 Speaker 10: People's lives are being ruined, all as a result of 530 00:34:25,116 --> 00:34:29,036 Speaker 10: someone resorting to using these really deadly weapons. So the 531 00:34:29,116 --> 00:34:33,236 Speaker 10: social response was something that we're not altogether unfamiliar with, 532 00:34:33,596 --> 00:34:38,156 Speaker 10: the primary media of the day talking about and lamenting 533 00:34:38,236 --> 00:34:40,316 Speaker 10: the loss of life as a results of these weapons 534 00:34:41,236 --> 00:34:43,436 Speaker 10: and saying that something should be done. 535 00:34:43,956 --> 00:34:49,116 Speaker 1: Walk walk me through the various strategies that were tried 536 00:34:49,316 --> 00:34:52,156 Speaker 1: in this era in response to the revolver Well. 537 00:34:52,196 --> 00:34:56,156 Speaker 10: The first strategy is what scholars are now calling public 538 00:34:56,196 --> 00:35:01,956 Speaker 10: carry laws, and they started out by prohibiting, in statutory language, 539 00:35:01,996 --> 00:35:05,276 Speaker 10: in clear black and white, you can't carry or conceal 540 00:35:05,556 --> 00:35:08,676 Speaker 10: certain these certain weapons in public spaces, and there would 541 00:35:08,676 --> 00:35:09,836 Speaker 10: be some sort of of a penalty. 542 00:35:10,396 --> 00:35:14,396 Speaker 1: There were laws prohibiting guns from certain sensitive places, taxes 543 00:35:14,436 --> 00:35:18,916 Speaker 1: imposed to make guns more expensive. If we just used 544 00:35:18,916 --> 00:35:23,076 Speaker 1: Texas as our example, So how many of those strategies 545 00:35:23,116 --> 00:35:27,516 Speaker 1: are being deployed in Texas in the latter part of. 546 00:35:27,516 --> 00:35:31,196 Speaker 10: The nineteenth century, I believe all of them, except for 547 00:35:31,276 --> 00:35:35,796 Speaker 10: personal taxation and banning the sale of certain weapons. So 548 00:35:35,876 --> 00:35:39,316 Speaker 10: in Texas there by nineteen hundred, in Texas there was 549 00:35:39,316 --> 00:35:43,436 Speaker 10: a sensitive place's law that was very broad. It covered 550 00:35:43,556 --> 00:35:48,636 Speaker 10: everything from polling places on election days to circuses, any 551 00:35:48,676 --> 00:35:54,116 Speaker 10: public gathering was a disarmed space. There was also a 552 00:35:54,156 --> 00:35:57,436 Speaker 10: public carry law that applied not only to concealed weapons, 553 00:35:57,796 --> 00:36:00,596 Speaker 10: but to openly carried weapons as well, So you could 554 00:36:00,596 --> 00:36:03,716 Speaker 10: not carry a booie knife or a pistol or various 555 00:36:03,796 --> 00:36:08,236 Speaker 10: other concealable deadly weapons in public beyond the confines of 556 00:36:08,276 --> 00:36:11,236 Speaker 10: your own property at all. 557 00:36:11,396 --> 00:36:13,596 Speaker 1: By the turn of the twentieth century, there were also 558 00:36:13,676 --> 00:36:16,596 Speaker 1: taxes on gun dealers and a law against selling arms 559 00:36:16,636 --> 00:36:22,196 Speaker 1: to minors. So Texas gun laws in eighteen ninety are 560 00:36:22,276 --> 00:36:26,636 Speaker 1: way more restricted than they are in twenty twenty three. Yes, 561 00:36:27,316 --> 00:36:30,796 Speaker 1: and is Texas an outlier in those years? There are 562 00:36:30,836 --> 00:36:33,156 Speaker 1: other kind of large states that have similar kind of 563 00:36:33,796 --> 00:36:35,636 Speaker 1: positions on gun violence to that. 564 00:36:36,076 --> 00:36:38,756 Speaker 10: I would not say Texas is an outlier. It was 565 00:36:38,796 --> 00:36:40,276 Speaker 10: a very common approach. 566 00:36:41,476 --> 00:36:43,876 Speaker 1: Huge parts of the country were covered by gun control 567 00:36:43,956 --> 00:36:48,036 Speaker 1: laws in the nineteenth century, laws that would seem unacceptable today. 568 00:36:48,556 --> 00:36:50,716 Speaker 1: That's how much people were spooked by the rise of 569 00:36:50,756 --> 00:36:54,676 Speaker 1: the revolver. There's even a sub specialty of American history 570 00:36:54,876 --> 00:36:57,716 Speaker 1: devoted to digging up all the old gun laws that 571 00:36:57,796 --> 00:37:01,876 Speaker 1: were on the books around this time. Patrick, can you 572 00:37:01,876 --> 00:37:05,676 Speaker 1: do me a favorite? Can you pull up the list 573 00:37:05,876 --> 00:37:10,196 Speaker 1: of cities that you know had discovered had gun control 574 00:37:10,316 --> 00:37:12,636 Speaker 1: ordinances in the late nineteenth century, and just read me, 575 00:37:13,956 --> 00:37:16,076 Speaker 1: read me twenty of the city names. 576 00:37:17,196 --> 00:37:21,156 Speaker 11: I'll go to my appendix. I have these things all 577 00:37:21,156 --> 00:37:21,676 Speaker 11: over the place. 578 00:37:22,876 --> 00:37:26,236 Speaker 1: This is Patrick Charles, one of the leading gun laws sleuths. 579 00:37:27,276 --> 00:37:32,196 Speaker 11: All right, let's go. So, I think great examples are 580 00:37:32,356 --> 00:37:34,036 Speaker 11: you know? So if we go to California, right, We've 581 00:37:34,036 --> 00:37:38,956 Speaker 11: got Sacramento, We've got San Francisco, Santa Barbara, s Angeles, Amida. 582 00:37:39,156 --> 00:37:45,116 Speaker 11: If you go to Kansas, these are cities that probably 583 00:37:45,276 --> 00:37:51,476 Speaker 11: unless you're from Kansas, you don't even know Argentine, Concordian, Coffeeville. 584 00:37:52,436 --> 00:37:54,476 Speaker 11: Then if you go beyond that, I mean we've got 585 00:37:54,516 --> 00:37:58,476 Speaker 11: places such as and Brooklyn was not always part of 586 00:37:58,476 --> 00:38:03,036 Speaker 11: New York City. You've got Brooklyn, You've got Nashville, Tennessee, 587 00:38:03,156 --> 00:38:08,116 Speaker 11: West Missouri, Wheeling, West Virgin Paul, Minnesotaly in Wisconsin's in Illinois. 588 00:38:08,156 --> 00:38:09,756 Speaker 11: There's also Chicago. Oh had it? 589 00:38:11,796 --> 00:38:17,756 Speaker 1: So wait? So sut there guess who else had a 590 00:38:17,796 --> 00:38:22,836 Speaker 1: gun law in place? Dodge City, Kansas. After that first 591 00:38:22,916 --> 00:38:26,876 Speaker 1: murderous season in eighteen seventy two, the town cracked down 592 00:38:27,516 --> 00:38:30,476 Speaker 1: At the bridge over the Arkansas River, which every cowboy 593 00:38:30,596 --> 00:38:32,916 Speaker 1: crossed on his way into Dodge City, there was a 594 00:38:32,916 --> 00:38:38,956 Speaker 1: big sign the carrying of firearms strictly prohibited. The law 595 00:38:38,996 --> 00:38:40,836 Speaker 1: said that you had to check your gun at the 596 00:38:40,836 --> 00:38:44,516 Speaker 1: sheriff's office or town hall or some other designated building. 597 00:38:45,076 --> 00:38:48,436 Speaker 1: One spot was the local brick factory. The owner said 598 00:38:48,556 --> 00:38:51,716 Speaker 1: that at one point he had hundreds of revolvers stacked 599 00:38:51,796 --> 00:38:54,556 Speaker 1: up in his storeroom. You got a chit like a 600 00:38:54,636 --> 00:38:57,436 Speaker 1: coach checked token, which you turned in for your gun 601 00:38:57,556 --> 00:39:01,036 Speaker 1: when you left town. In Dodge City, the penalty for 602 00:39:01,076 --> 00:39:04,396 Speaker 1: breaking that law was one hundred dollars or three months 603 00:39:04,436 --> 00:39:07,756 Speaker 1: in jail, or both. When the murder rate ticked back 604 00:39:07,836 --> 00:39:10,156 Speaker 1: up to one or two a year, the local paper 605 00:39:10,196 --> 00:39:12,836 Speaker 1: got all upset and accused the police of going easy 606 00:39:12,836 --> 00:39:15,636 Speaker 1: on gun owners, like the time when the marshal took 607 00:39:15,636 --> 00:39:17,516 Speaker 1: a gun off a drunken trouble maker in a bar 608 00:39:17,716 --> 00:39:20,676 Speaker 1: and foolishly gave the gun to the man's boss, who 609 00:39:20,676 --> 00:39:23,796 Speaker 1: promptly gave it back to his employee, who then killed somebody. 610 00:39:24,316 --> 00:39:29,356 Speaker 1: Not smart. So gun Smoke comes along in the mid 611 00:39:29,476 --> 00:39:33,356 Speaker 1: nineteen fifties, and in its first season with half the 612 00:39:33,396 --> 00:39:38,156 Speaker 1: country's television audience watching it introduces us to their version 613 00:39:38,356 --> 00:39:42,716 Speaker 1: of Dodge City, the world's most dangerous place, and in 614 00:39:42,796 --> 00:39:45,516 Speaker 1: those first few episodes, it has to deal with the 615 00:39:45,596 --> 00:39:49,396 Speaker 1: question of what Matt Dillon, the symbol of law and authority, 616 00:39:49,676 --> 00:39:53,796 Speaker 1: should do about this extraordinary violence. He can't turn a 617 00:39:53,836 --> 00:39:56,876 Speaker 1: blind eye to it, Kenny, Oh, No, he has to 618 00:39:56,916 --> 00:40:00,836 Speaker 1: take action. They decide to have him try what his 619 00:40:00,956 --> 00:40:06,476 Speaker 1: real life counterparts tried, gun control. So Matt Dillon takes 620 00:40:06,516 --> 00:40:12,316 Speaker 1: away Andy's gun, and Andy is transformed. Our blonde haired 621 00:40:12,316 --> 00:40:15,396 Speaker 1: gunman gets a job of the local stables. The owner 622 00:40:15,516 --> 00:40:18,756 Speaker 1: loves him, says, I wish he was my son. We 623 00:40:18,876 --> 00:40:22,516 Speaker 1: see Andy at the local saloon, having a single chased beer, 624 00:40:22,996 --> 00:40:27,356 Speaker 1: chatting politely with the beautiful proprietress. A bully challenges him 625 00:40:27,396 --> 00:40:30,516 Speaker 1: to a fistfight. Andy drops him with a punch. Matt 626 00:40:30,596 --> 00:40:34,796 Speaker 1: Dillon looks on admiringly because he has liberated Andy from 627 00:40:34,796 --> 00:40:39,396 Speaker 1: his gun. Dylan has been given moral purpose, Andy has 628 00:40:39,436 --> 00:40:43,796 Speaker 1: been given redemption. Both men see a way forward out 629 00:40:43,796 --> 00:40:46,876 Speaker 1: of the unrelenting bleakness that is Dodge City. 630 00:40:48,636 --> 00:40:51,916 Speaker 4: You know something, Marshall, boy, he was right about me 631 00:40:51,956 --> 00:40:52,716 Speaker 4: not wearing a gun. 632 00:40:53,636 --> 00:40:54,836 Speaker 6: I'm glad I took it off. 633 00:40:55,916 --> 00:40:59,356 Speaker 1: You was right about me not wearing a gun. But 634 00:40:59,476 --> 00:41:04,076 Speaker 1: then commercial break and when we come back, a stranger 635 00:41:04,156 --> 00:41:08,876 Speaker 1: shows up in Dodge City asking after Andy. Says, Andy's 636 00:41:08,876 --> 00:41:11,916 Speaker 1: in outlaw. Says Andy used to be part of the 637 00:41:11,956 --> 00:41:15,396 Speaker 1: Fisher gang down in Laramie, Wyoming. There's a bounty on 638 00:41:15,436 --> 00:41:18,316 Speaker 1: his head one thousand dollars to get or alive. The 639 00:41:18,316 --> 00:41:21,996 Speaker 1: stranger finds Andy in the stables, says you're coming with me. 640 00:41:22,476 --> 00:41:25,756 Speaker 1: Andy says no way. Andy goes for his gun, but 641 00:41:26,676 --> 00:41:30,196 Speaker 1: he's got no gun. Matt Dylon took it. He grabs 642 00:41:30,236 --> 00:41:33,156 Speaker 1: it air and the bounty hunter shoots him in the chest. 643 00:41:33,876 --> 00:41:37,596 Speaker 1: Matt Dylan rushes in too late. He goes to the 644 00:41:37,596 --> 00:41:39,596 Speaker 1: stricken Andy lying on the ground. 645 00:41:40,876 --> 00:41:46,756 Speaker 6: I forgot I forgot about my gun. I went for 646 00:41:47,356 --> 00:41:57,956 Speaker 6: remembered didn't work out so good, just because I've forgotten fad. 647 00:42:03,516 --> 00:42:06,956 Speaker 1: He dies and the bounty hunter turns to Matt Dylan. 648 00:42:07,836 --> 00:42:08,796 Speaker 7: They went for his gun. 649 00:42:10,156 --> 00:42:11,236 Speaker 2: I had a Killain. 650 00:42:12,116 --> 00:42:16,436 Speaker 1: Dylan is gazing, grief stricken into the endless prairie horizon. 651 00:42:17,916 --> 00:42:24,236 Speaker 2: Now you didn't kill him? What I killed him? 652 00:42:25,076 --> 00:42:29,956 Speaker 1: And somewhere in the suburbs of Hamilton Township. Little Sammy Alito, 653 00:42:30,476 --> 00:42:33,236 Speaker 1: already dreaming of one day wearing the long black robes 654 00:42:33,276 --> 00:42:37,516 Speaker 1: of the High Court, learns a lesson he will never forget. 655 00:42:38,676 --> 00:42:52,636 Speaker 1: Guns don't kill people. Gun controlled US, our revisionist history 656 00:42:52,636 --> 00:42:56,956 Speaker 1: Gun series was produced by Jacob Smith, Bend Adaph Haffrey, 657 00:42:57,476 --> 00:43:01,956 Speaker 1: Piara Powell, Tally, Emlyn and Leeman Gistoo. We were edited 658 00:43:01,956 --> 00:43:05,516 Speaker 1: by Peter Clowney and Julia Barton. Fact checking by Arthur 659 00:43:05,556 --> 00:43:10,796 Speaker 1: Gombert's and Cashel Williams. Original scoring by the Risquerra, mastering 660 00:43:11,236 --> 00:43:16,476 Speaker 1: by FLONN Williams. Engineering by Nina Lawrence. I'm Malcolm Gladwell.