Speaker 1: In August of Dorak kasro Shaw, he became the CEO
Speaker 1: of Uber, succeeding founder Travis Kalenik kasros Shaw. He manages
Speaker 1: a company's fast growing business in sixty three countries around
Speaker 1: the world and leads a global team of more than
Speaker 1: twenty two thousand employees. He was previously the CEO of Expedia,
Speaker 1: which he grew into one of the world's largest online
Speaker 1: travel companies. Kasro Shaw he spoke with David Rubinstein, co
Speaker 1: founder of the Carlisle Group and host of the Bloomberg
Speaker 1: television show Peter Peer Conversations. They discussed the company, the
Speaker 1: future of transportation and self driving vehicles. You've been the
Speaker 1: CEO of Uber for how long now y years? And
Speaker 1: you enjoy it. I love it, Okay. So when you
Speaker 1: came in, the company was not public company. You've taken
Speaker 1: the public and you've received a lot of publicity about
Speaker 1: the I p O. Obviously, you know that the company
Speaker 1: now I was a higher market capitalization roughly seventy two
Speaker 1: billion dollars something like that, higher market capitalization than any
Speaker 1: company in American capitalism history except for Facebook. This short
Speaker 1: time after um it's I P O. Why are you
Speaker 1: are so many people criticizing you for having a seventy
Speaker 1: two billion dollar market cap. Well, I think that there
Speaker 1: are many critics out there, especially for the for large companies,
Speaker 1: that that that's a fact of life. I do think
Speaker 1: that what's different about UH some of the technology companies
Speaker 1: of our generation that are coming public, the so called unicorns,
Speaker 1: is that we've actually stayed private for longer UH and
Speaker 1: we have raised more money over a long our perd
Speaker 1: of time, and as a result, when we come public,
Speaker 1: we generally have bigger scale than companies who went public,
Speaker 1: let's say the last generation of companies that that went
Speaker 1: public as well. But my view on this is we
Speaker 1: wanted to go public. We needed to make sure that
Speaker 1: we are well capitalized for the next five years for
Speaker 1: the company, and we achieve that, and now the time
Speaker 1: is to put your head down and get the real
Speaker 1: work done. After the company did go public, while I
Speaker 1: kind of pointed out that it is a very high
Speaker 1: market capitalization, UH so soon after UH It's I p O,
Speaker 1: it did go down by about eleven which is a
Speaker 1: record decline after an I p O. So did you
Speaker 1: think the investment bankers didn't price it correctly or what
Speaker 1: do you think the problem was on the I p O.
Speaker 1: You know, I love how this interview is starting. I
Speaker 1: really appreciate that. Um. I think that's actually the the
Speaker 1: timing of our I p O was very much aligned
Speaker 1: with our president's tariff wars the same day. So I
Speaker 1: think we got caught up in a bit of a
Speaker 1: market swirl and there's nothing you can do about that.
Speaker 1: And what I tell the team is it's a short
Speaker 1: term the market can be a voting machine, but long
Speaker 1: term it's a weighing machine, and we are focused on
Speaker 1: the waging and I'm very confident that if we as
Speaker 1: a team execute, the market will appreciate it. By the way,
Speaker 1: how did you get here? You didn't take an Uber?
Speaker 1: Did you? Unfortunately, when I come here, I need some
Speaker 1: professional secure Do you take Uber time of time? Yeah?
Speaker 1: This weekend with the family, we're taking Ubers all over
Speaker 1: the place. Absolutely. So when you take an uber um,
Speaker 1: that's just that's let's talk about the ride sharing part.
Speaker 1: You take an uber um? Do they know who you are?
Speaker 1: It's about fifty fifty and the ones that don't know you,
Speaker 1: you just give them comments on how good they are
Speaker 1: or not. How do you make sure They're are very
Speaker 1: polite and make sure that I don't slam the door,
Speaker 1: ask them how they're doing. If I get on the
Speaker 1: phone call, I asked them, you know, is it okay
Speaker 1: to make a phone call, etcetera. So I try to
Speaker 1: be as nice as I can because I'm trying to
Speaker 1: improve my Uber ratings. Actually not as good as I've noticed.
Speaker 1: You have said before that people shouldn't slam the doors.
Speaker 1: Is that a big problem. Uh, it's if you're driving
Speaker 1: a car and you've got tens twenty passengers coming in
Speaker 1: the car is really an asset of yours, your cup
Speaker 1: and he has roughly employees. Yes, all right, but you
Speaker 1: have three million more show drivers, almost four million drivers
Speaker 1: and couriers now on a global basis, you're in sixty
Speaker 1: three countries or and five cities or something like that.
Speaker 1: You have been briefed very effectively. Okay, impressive, all right?
Speaker 1: Today in the United States? Is it is it increasing
Speaker 1: in terms of users or is it going to study
Speaker 1: or is it going down? No, it's increasing in every
Speaker 1: single market. So the growth rates are we as a
Speaker 1: company of the last quarter that we announced as a
Speaker 1: newly public company, we announced that on a foreign exchange
Speaker 1: neutral basis. We grew our bookings forty year on the year,
Speaker 1: and this is off of a pretty considerable base of
Speaker 1: bookings almost fifteen billion kind of run rate on a
Speaker 1: quarterly basis. So the business is growing at very big scale,
Speaker 1: at pretty impressive rates. But last quarter when you had
Speaker 1: your earnings announcement, you did lose a billion dollars during
Speaker 1: the previous quarter. Yes, I'm sure you know this by
Speaker 1: those are details that are important, but you know so, um,
Speaker 1: how much longer can you lose a billion dollars a
Speaker 1: quarter and keep going? We have a very significant amount
Speaker 1: of cash in the bank. You've got eight billion dollars
Speaker 1: from the I p O. And you already had some money. Yeah,
Speaker 1: we we already had some money. So the company at
Speaker 1: this point is incredibly well capitalized, uh to keep investing.
Speaker 1: And the markets that were going after the transportation of people,
Speaker 1: food trade, these are these markets represent sixteen trillion dollar
Speaker 1: markets that were going after all, right, and if you
Speaker 1: look at even Uber, the ride share business itself, when
Speaker 1: you look at our audience of the countries in which
Speaker 1: we operate, typically we are addressing no more than two
Speaker 1: of the population of these countries. So we think it's
Speaker 1: time to lean forward. The business itself can be quite profitable.
Speaker 1: We're confident of that. But the next two three four
Speaker 1: years are going to be about growth, and then we'll
Speaker 1: flip it over as the market demands. So if I
Speaker 1: to the have a ride share, let's say, ready after
Speaker 1: this interview and go somewhere, why should I pick Uber
Speaker 1: versus your competitors, let's say Lift or V. I think
Speaker 1: we have lots of competitors who are very good at
Speaker 1: what at what they do. I think we typically in
Speaker 1: most markets and pretty much every market that we operate,
Speaker 1: we have the greatest number of drivers out of the market,
Speaker 1: so we've got the best liquidity, so you're probably going
Speaker 1: to get the best e t A so you'll get
Speaker 1: the quickest driver to to pick you up. The choices
Speaker 1: that we have are pretty impressive. So for example, in
Speaker 1: in d C, now we have transit schedules right on
Speaker 1: the app, So we really want to move from a
Speaker 1: ride hailing app to essentially your transportation partner, so that
Speaker 1: if you're trying to get from A to B, we're
Speaker 1: gonna give you all the information that you have, which
Speaker 1: many of our competitors don't do. To be able to
Speaker 1: get from A to B with a tradeoff of time, convenience,
Speaker 1: and price as well. So right now you have many
Speaker 1: different businesses. Ride sharing is the one that you're most
Speaker 1: famous for, but actually it's more profitable I think for
Speaker 1: you is Uber eats? Is that right? Uber Eats is
Speaker 1: more profitable now. Ride sharing is is more profitable in
Speaker 1: most markets. It's it's the more mature part of the business.
Speaker 1: The Uber eats business is now about twenty percent of
Speaker 1: our business. It's growing over a hundred percent on a year.
Speaker 1: On your basis, the run rate is is enormous. We're
Speaker 1: now the largest UH food delivery player ex China, and
Speaker 1: we entered this business three years ago as a revenue percentage.
Speaker 1: Right now it's what percentage of you it's about of
Speaker 1: our booking. How many cities that in eats is now
Speaker 1: in over five hundred cities. What's the most popular food
Speaker 1: that on your Uber eats? Fried chicken is magic fried chicken?
Speaker 1: And how do you keep the grease from kind of
Speaker 1: going through? I mean they just David, I'm covering that
Speaker 1: in my next next monthly business review. I haven't gone
Speaker 1: to fried chicken grease? Okay, that's the most popular. Yeah,
Speaker 1: let's talk about some of your other businesses over here.
Speaker 1: You have, I guess, your scooter business and your electric
Speaker 1: bike business. So the scooter business um is all over
Speaker 1: the United States and around the world. Are Uh, it's
Speaker 1: in about twenty five cities now and expanding mostly in
Speaker 1: the US, but we're spending into Europe pretty quickly as well.
Speaker 1: You have your scooter that's manufactured just for you, is it?
Speaker 1: There's it different than the scooters and other companies use.
Speaker 1: We are building a scooter that's manufactured just for us.
Speaker 1: The bike is manufactured just by us, and it's designed
Speaker 1: by us, totally proprietary. Now, some people say scooters are dangerous.
Speaker 1: What do you say about that? I think that that
Speaker 1: is It's something that we're watching pretty carefully. Uh, and
Speaker 1: we are working on technologies to modulate those issues. So,
Speaker 1: for example, when scooters get too very busy parts of town,
Speaker 1: we will slow them down. Uh. Some of these scooters
Speaker 1: early on, they went as as high as twenty miles
Speaker 1: an hour. Now we're working with cities to say, hey,
Speaker 1: how asked do you think is a responsible speed. We
Speaker 1: encourage our writers to our helmets. Now you have a
Speaker 1: new product which is helicopters. Yes, yes, Okay, now you've
Speaker 1: launched that in a couple of cities, so from New
Speaker 1: York City so far we have yes, and it's a
Speaker 1: service from downtown New York to JFK. Are great demand
Speaker 1: for that. What we'll see um as as you may know,
Speaker 1: going to JFK during rush hour in New York City
Speaker 1: is a mess. Uh And and really what we are
Speaker 1: trying to what is that to do? If you want
Speaker 1: to go from downtown Manhattan to JFK, what is that
Speaker 1: an ubercopter? Yes, about two ducks, which is actually fairly
Speaker 1: if you take if you're going from downtown New York
Speaker 1: to JFK within uber black, it's going to cost close
Speaker 1: to two dollars anyway. So the magic about being able
Speaker 1: to do it in a helicopter is that we're bringing
Speaker 1: in demand from thousands of users who are going to JFK,
Speaker 1: and we're matching three or for users and we're putting
Speaker 1: them in the same vehicle. So one of the keys
Speaker 1: in terms of traffic is most people drive alone, and
Speaker 1: that's a that's a huge waste of our roads, is
Speaker 1: a huge waste of gas, etcetera. And we have a
Speaker 1: protocol pool while we're matched two or three or four
Speaker 1: different riders into one car. And essentially our ubercopter is
Speaker 1: pool for the air. And what you'll see is that
Speaker 1: these helicopters are going to be replaced by a generation
Speaker 1: of electrically powered vertical takeoff and landing. Now will they
Speaker 1: ever be driverless? They will eventually be driverless, but we
Speaker 1: are absolutely going to start with pilots. I think it's
Speaker 1: a safer way to go, but I think you you
Speaker 1: can expect that in the aviation industry in general, UM
Speaker 1: they are absolutely taking a look at either computers assisting
Speaker 1: pilots more and more. There are some controversies with that
Speaker 1: or over a long long period of time, uh, going
Speaker 1: driverlesss or pilotless. Let's talk about your driverless or autonomous business. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you took a lot of people from Carnegie Mellon. Yes
Speaker 1: we didn't out of the robotics department. And you have
Speaker 1: said recently that you think it's not going to happen
Speaker 1: so quickly as people have previously said. How long will
Speaker 1: it be before your UM ride ride program or your
Speaker 1: driver program is one where there's no drivers, no drivers.
Speaker 1: I think it'll be it'll be fifteen plus years. I
Speaker 1: think it will take a long time. So I think
Speaker 1: there's this drama around robots replacing humans, and I think
Speaker 1: the reality of life is that the better thing that
Speaker 1: humans alone and robots alone or robots and humans working together, okay,
Speaker 1: And and and so robots are very well designed for
Speaker 1: replacing repetitive um predictable behaviors. Most of driving is not
Speaker 1: either repetitive or predictable, but there's a subset of routes
Speaker 1: that are. So what you'll see with our driverless program
Speaker 1: is at one, we're going to be incredibly careful and
Speaker 1: we're gonna make sure safety absolutely comes first. But we
Speaker 1: are building our driver list program, and by the way,
Speaker 1: we're working with third parties as well, within a context
Speaker 1: of a network where for example, in d C, we
Speaker 1: are data scientists know what are the one percent easiest
Speaker 1: trips in d C UH And an easy trip in
Speaker 1: d C may may be avoid a round about, avoid
Speaker 1: an unprotected left turn, stay away, let's say, from the airports,
Speaker 1: stay on areas that are very very well mapped. There
Speaker 1: are a set of routes that are incredibly easy to drive.
Speaker 1: And what you'll see with us as far as our
Speaker 1: driver list program is we will get the machines to
Speaker 1: do the simple stuff, and then we will have the
Speaker 1: humans do the difficult stuff, and the two are going
Speaker 1: to coexist for ten fifteen years, for long period of time,
Speaker 1: versus kind of the let's say the drama that the
Speaker 1: that the press work. Your fifteen year answer was intended
Speaker 1: to mean no drivers at all, but you expect to
Speaker 1: have some driverless or autonomous vehicles uh in a year
Speaker 1: or two or three or four. Within the next five years,
Speaker 1: you can see some driver list vehicles out in the markets.
Speaker 1: And again I think it's going to be in a
Speaker 1: very very limited way. Now, you spun off your autonomous
Speaker 1: or driver lists part of your company to a separate company.
Speaker 1: Why did you do that? We created a separate company
Speaker 1: that where we were able to bring in some investors
Speaker 1: and some partners, UH Toyota, who is as you know,
Speaker 1: a huge O E. M. And we have a terrific
Speaker 1: partnership with Toyota Denso, which is a Toyota company as
Speaker 1: well that is very strong in manufacturing kits and sensors
Speaker 1: and other parts of the car. Um and really bringing
Speaker 1: in Toyota and Denso was about building these autonomous vehicles
Speaker 1: at scale. And then we also brought in um Masa
Speaker 1: and soft Bank as a financial partner as well. SoftBank
Speaker 1: is your biggest single investor still yes, And they went
Speaker 1: in at evaluation that is above or right where you
Speaker 1: currently are below. SoftBank got a decent and I think
Speaker 1: it will get more decent with time. So when was
Speaker 1: the company actually first started and who actually started the company?
Speaker 1: The company was started about nine years ago and it
Speaker 1: was started by Garrett Camp who is an entrepreneur. He's
Speaker 1: still on a board. He's he's unbelievably smart guy. Uh
Speaker 1: So he brought on Travis Kalenik, who is our former
Speaker 1: CEO and one of the founders as well. And so
Speaker 1: Garrett and Travis and then another one of our founds
Speaker 1: Ryan really teamed up to build this thing. How many
Speaker 1: of the people who were there at the beginning, And um,
Speaker 1: I've on a lot of stock, in fact, a lot
Speaker 1: of people in the company, oh more stock than you do.
Speaker 1: You're the CEO. You think you're underpaid because you know
Speaker 1: you're you've taken a public and you don't own as
Speaker 1: much stock as some people working for you. Is that
Speaker 1: a problem for you? Uh? It is? I would never
Speaker 1: claim that I'm underpaid. You grew up not in the
Speaker 1: United States. Where were you born? I was born in Iran,
Speaker 1: actually okay, And uh, why did you leave Iran? I
Speaker 1: after Iran in I was nine years old and this
Speaker 1: was with when the Iranian Revolution happened. Uh. My family
Speaker 1: was an industrial family while off and when the show
Speaker 1: was overthrown. Uh, folks like my family were no longer
Speaker 1: welcoming Iran. So we left Iran and we went to
Speaker 1: France actually to wait until things calmed down. And things
Speaker 1: never calmed down. Uh. And then we went from France
Speaker 1: to Irvington, New York, where we stayed in my uncle's
Speaker 1: house because we had no no other place to stay.
Speaker 1: So you went to high school in in uh, in Terrytown,
Speaker 1: New York. Happy school. And then you went to Brown. Yes,
Speaker 1: I studied bioelectrical engineering and Brown and then threw it
Speaker 1: all the way to be an investment banker in New
Speaker 1: York City. So go figure. So you were at Alan
Speaker 1: and Company for the years, and uh, you didn't want
Speaker 1: to go into private equity. The higher calling of investment
Speaker 1: banking was good enough. You know. It was a question
Speaker 1: of just how evil I wanted to be, and I
Speaker 1: wanted to be. It's a little less either, Okay, all right, Okay,
Speaker 1: you could have gone to hedge funds everywhere, that's the ultimate. Okay, Well,
Speaker 1: well that I would have had horns. Okay. So you're
Speaker 1: minding your own business and alan company, and then all
Speaker 1: of a sudden you've got to work for Barry Barry Diller. Yes,
Speaker 1: how did he know of you? I was a grunt
Speaker 1: analyst on a deal for Barry Dealer. Barry Dealer was
Speaker 1: this was he was bidding against some of their red Stone.
Speaker 1: It was a big battle in in Wall Street. He
Speaker 1: was bidding against some of the rest for Paramount. It
Speaker 1: was a back and forth, it was. It was an
Speaker 1: unfriendly bid he was. He was not wanted, but we
Speaker 1: put up a big fight. And I got to know
Speaker 1: Barry over that period of time, and I thought to myself,
Speaker 1: you know, if I ever had the chance to work
Speaker 1: for that person, I want to work for that person.
Speaker 1: And and I got the chance eventually. All right, So
Speaker 1: you went to work for him? Yes? And then ultimately
Speaker 1: um one of the companies he owned was Expedia, Yes,
Speaker 1: and the own it before you joined or you I was,
Speaker 1: So I went to work for him as the deal person. Uh.
Speaker 1: And so we did a bunch of deals and brought
Speaker 1: in companies in the travel space. We bought both Hotels
Speaker 1: dot Com and Expedia. Uh. And they were part of
Speaker 1: the family, and they were part of the family to
Speaker 1: some sent because of the deals that we did when
Speaker 1: I came in. All right, so you became the CEO
Speaker 1: of Expedia. I did, yes. And did you have any
Speaker 1: experience in being a c O? Why did he think
Speaker 1: you'd be good at being a c O? Um? He
Speaker 1: was desperate? Okay, so h we we were in a
Speaker 1: situation where um, one of the founders of Expedia, who
Speaker 1: was running speedy at the time, decided And this kind
Speaker 1: of stuff happens very naturally, which is founding a company.
Speaker 1: Building a company is different from managing it and moving
Speaker 1: it into a mature state. Uh. And Uh, this person
Speaker 1: decided that, Hey, I'm not up for the CEO gig anymore, Barry,
Speaker 1: can you find a replacement? Um? And you were not
Speaker 1: the first. Uh. You know, I have no idea. I've
Speaker 1: never asked him, but I raised my hand and he
Speaker 1: said yes. All right. And one point, the Expedia board
Speaker 1: gave you, I guess some stock options that were worth
Speaker 1: a hundred eighty million dollars. I guess they did based
Speaker 1: on theoretical values. Okay, And then all of a sudden,
Speaker 1: while you're doing a very good job running it and
Speaker 1: maybe gonna get a hundred eighty million on theoretical value,
Speaker 1: at some point, Um, somebody asked you to interview for
Speaker 1: the job of being the CEO of Ubers. And did
Speaker 1: you say I already have a job or yeah? At first,
Speaker 1: when I got called that, I said no way. But
Speaker 1: then I I talked to a couple of friends, and
Speaker 1: and you know, you don't get too many chances as
Speaker 1: a professional or otherwise too to work at and especially
Speaker 1: lead a company that I think is a part of
Speaker 1: how we live life. And I just saw it in
Speaker 1: that in this case, this is a once in a
Speaker 1: life opportunity. Did you tell Barry Dealer you were interviewing
Speaker 1: for this? I did. I did very early. As you know,
Speaker 1: the press was all over the place. You don't think
Speaker 1: you could have kept a secret? I guess yeah, I couldn't. Barry. Um,
Speaker 1: I have Barry to thank for pretty much everything in
Speaker 1: my professional career. Uh, And I could not bear the
Speaker 1: possibility of his hearing about this from some news report.
Speaker 1: Uh so he was the first person that called UM.
Speaker 1: He was pretty unhappy at the beginning, but then he
Speaker 1: called me back. We had a series of conversation. He
Speaker 1: called me back and he said, listen, I understand why
Speaker 1: you're doing this. Let me know how I can be helpful.
Speaker 1: And he was genuinely helpful as we went along this journey,
Speaker 1: and and uh, you know, we are where we are now.
Speaker 1: And he didn't remind you of the hundred eighty million
Speaker 1: dollars in stockhoferce. He didn't PERMANI of that or um.
Speaker 1: He understood that the reason why I would do this
Speaker 1: was not necessarily monetary. So when you came in, you
Speaker 1: were replacing Travis Kalenik, who was one of the founders
Speaker 1: and a big careholder, one of the biggest shareholders, but
Speaker 1: he still was on your board. Yes, So was that
Speaker 1: awkward to be the CEO replacing somebody who's still on
Speaker 1: the board a big shareholder. Was that easy to do
Speaker 1: or not? Yeah, listen, I'm I'm the I feel the
Speaker 1: same way. I'm on the board of Expedia and I'm
Speaker 1: the former CEO and there's a new CEO who actually
Speaker 1: I picked Marco Christram, Who's Who's who's the board CEO?
Speaker 1: And I'll tell you being a former CEO, it's a
Speaker 1: little weird sitting there and having someone else do something
Speaker 1: differently with your baby, because I think Uber feels like
Speaker 1: Travis's baby and Expedia felt like mine, And it's a
Speaker 1: little weird. But you know what. You you're respectful, you
Speaker 1: get out of the way, you give the CEO support,
Speaker 1: and I think Travis has done the same for me.
Speaker 1: So it's is it weird, yes? But are we in
Speaker 1: a situation where we're respectful and comfortable and is he
Speaker 1: there for me when I need his advice? Yes? And
Speaker 1: what's the biggest challenge you currently see the company facing?
Speaker 1: Maybe the biggest challenge that that we have is a
Speaker 1: is a common challenge that you see with some of
Speaker 1: the large technology companies out there, which is there is
Speaker 1: an increasing regulatory burden uh that is coming on some
Speaker 1: of the tech company some of it deserved. Let's suppose
Speaker 1: I have some extra money and I wanted to buy
Speaker 1: into a company like yours. Why should I buy you?
Speaker 1: I think you have some extra money, don't you never
Speaker 1: have enough? But well, why should I buy your stock?
Speaker 1: Is it likely to go up from where it is,
Speaker 1: and why is it likely to outperform some of your competitors.
Speaker 1: I have no idea where it's going next week or
Speaker 1: next month, but over a long period of time, we
Speaker 1: are at the cusp of a transportation revolution. We are
Speaker 1: we We are the player that's global. We're the player
Speaker 1: that is multiproduct in terms of moving people, food, things
Speaker 1: with our freight business as well. We have a much
Speaker 1: larger scope than any of the other players out there.
Speaker 1: And I tell you that ourselves and many of our
Speaker 1: competitors are going to do great because this is about
Speaker 1: replacing car ownership. This is about redefining how cities are shaped.
Speaker 1: This is about shaping how people move in urban centers.
Speaker 1: The summarize, what would you like the average person who's
Speaker 1: listening to know about Uber and his future? I think
Speaker 1: what what I want you to know is that we
Speaker 1: essentially want to be your partner in terms of your
Speaker 1: everyday life in a city. When you want to go
Speaker 1: to work, we want to be there when you're coming
Speaker 1: back to work, we want to be there. Uh. We
Speaker 1: want to be there to feed you uh. And we
Speaker 1: want to be your everyday utility uh in your use
Speaker 1: and we will do so in a responsible way. Uh.
Speaker 1: This is a company that wants to be great, but
Speaker 1: wants to do good for the world as well. Uh,
Speaker 1: and we know we had a lot of work ahead
Speaker 1: of us. That was Uber CEO dar kasro Shah. He
Speaker 1: speaking to Carlisle Group co founder David Rubenstein.