WEBVTT - Episode 9: Safa 0:00:00.290 --> 0:00:03.890 I have a confession to make. I've been withholding evidence 0:00:03.930 --> 0:00:07.470 from you. There was a survivor in the back bedroom 0:00:07.770 --> 0:00:08.389 of house two. 0:00:09.610 --> 0:00:11.270 Would you please state your full name? 0:00:12.610 --> 0:00:15.270 The reason I didn't tell you about. 0:00:16.350 --> 0:00:21.910 Safa Yunus Salim Rasif, the 13-year-old. 0:00:20.910 --> 0:00:33.650 Girl and sole survivor in the back bedroom of house two, 0:00:34.110 --> 0:00:36.089 was that I didn't want to confuse you. 0:00:36.909 --> 0:00:38.010 And where do you live? 0:00:38.870 --> 0:00:39.810 One second. 0:00:39.830 --> 0:00:41.360 One second, one ice. 0:00:41.860 --> 0:00:42.180 Hadith. 0:00:42.460 --> 0:00:42.840 Hadith. 0:00:44.979 --> 0:00:49.300 This story is so convoluted, with so many players and 0:00:49.479 --> 0:00:52.860 so many twists and turns, that I've tried to tell 0:00:52.900 --> 0:00:56.470 it methodically. Brick, by Storytelling Brick. 0:00:57.110 --> 0:00:59.510 How old are you? Come over, Hadith. 0:01:03.330 --> 0:01:05.750 I was afraid that if I gave you all the 0:01:05.810 --> 0:01:11.569 information all at once, Mike Maloney's blood spatter analysis, Mendoza's testimony, 0:01:12.140 --> 0:01:17.440 Tatum's testimony, Frank's failing memory, the 9mm shell casings, the 0:01:17.500 --> 0:01:21.740 aborted stippling test, the dismissal of charges, the immunity deals, 0:01:22.280 --> 0:01:25.710 and Safa, it would all be too much. 0:01:29.640 --> 0:01:36.280 I'm going to ask you some questions about November 19th, 2005. 0:01:36.280 --> 0:01:47.650 Do you remember where you were that morning? What would 0:01:47.690 --> 0:01:48.310 happen that day? 0:01:49.470 --> 0:01:53.010 But there's another reason I didn't tell you about Safa's testimony. 0:01:53.530 --> 0:01:56.210 And it has nothing to do with marshalling all the 0:01:56.310 --> 0:02:01.810 evidence into a coherent story. It was about emotion. You see, 0:02:02.470 --> 0:02:05.980 I wanted you to feel exactly what Mike Maloney felt 0:02:06.240 --> 0:02:10.079 when he learned that Safa's testimony had been withheld from him. 0:02:10.760 --> 0:02:11.520 What was your. 0:02:11.380 --> 0:02:17.169 Take on Safa's testimony as you were determining your forensic analysis? 0:02:18.150 --> 0:02:22.269 It had no play in my determining and forensic analysis. 0:02:23.169 --> 0:02:23.769 How could that be? 0:02:24.430 --> 0:02:27.460 I requested it several times through trial counsel. I think 0:02:27.540 --> 0:02:30.400 once or twice in writing, once or twice verbally. But 0:02:30.419 --> 0:02:33.040 it wasn't provided, so I assumed that it didn't exist. 0:02:34.540 --> 0:02:37.800 I'm Michael Epstein, and you're listening to Fault Line Haditha. 0:02:38.760 --> 0:02:39.520 Episode 9. Safa. 0:02:40.400 --> 0:02:45.980 Safa Yunus Salim Rasif. 0:02:56.830 --> 0:02:58.840 Was the sole survivor in House 2. 0:02:58.830 --> 0:03:05.650 An IED was exploded on the way that leads. 0:03:05.380 --> 0:03:09.360 To our home, around near the corner. 0:03:10.900 --> 0:03:11.859 That lead to our house. 0:03:12.980 --> 0:03:14.600 Do you remember what time of day that happened? 0:03:16.120 --> 0:03:20.639 In January 2007, just a few weeks after Frank Widerich 0:03:20.780 --> 0:03:24.940 was charged with murdering her entire family, Safa gave a 0:03:25.040 --> 0:03:29.140 sworn videotape deposition to Marine Corps prosecutors. 0:03:30.960 --> 0:03:33.220 Who was at the house besides you and your father? 0:03:34.800 --> 0:03:40.780 Safa's statement is a revelation. There's no other way to 0:03:41.520 --> 0:03:43.440 describe it. 0:03:53.930 --> 0:03:58.110 In a clear, calm voice, Safa retold the horror of 0:03:58.170 --> 0:04:02.950 what happened to her and her family in House 2. 0:04:03.310 --> 0:04:08.790 When we heard the. 0:04:07.570 --> 0:04:15.590 Tapping of the door, my dad wanted to open the door. 0:04:16.300 --> 0:04:21.440 We heard lots of fire, bullets were. 0:04:21.339 --> 0:04:23.000 Fired, you know, gunshots. 0:04:24.880 --> 0:04:29.520 Amazingly, all the details she laid out align perfectly with 0:04:29.540 --> 0:04:33.540 the physical evidence. The timing of the fragmentary grenade in 0:04:33.580 --> 0:04:37.380 the empty washroom, the position of her aunt just inside 0:04:37.420 --> 0:04:40.620 the bedroom doorway, and that of her brother and sisters 0:04:40.940 --> 0:04:45.730 on her parents' bed. Even Mendoza's incriminating statement that he 0:04:45.910 --> 0:04:49.410 opened the door and saw women and children alive, all 0:04:49.450 --> 0:04:55.210 of it is accounted for in Safa's testimony. And yet... Somehow, 0:04:55.850 --> 0:05:00.510 Safa's statement was entirely missing from Special Agent Mike Maloney's 0:05:00.830 --> 0:05:04.740 forensic reconstruction of House 2. 0:05:04.740 --> 0:05:15.799 Was everyone besides her father in that room? 0:05:17.080 --> 0:05:20.659 How could that be? How could Mike Maloney, the government's 0:05:20.880 --> 0:05:26.570 own forensic expert, miss something so significant. The truth is, 0:05:27.089 --> 0:05:29.450 he didn't miss it. It was kept from him. 0:05:30.690 --> 0:05:32.550 I had heard that there was a survivor. I heard 0:05:32.589 --> 0:05:35.150 there was a statement that she had been interviewed and 0:05:35.170 --> 0:05:39.480 she provided something. I requested it several times through trial counsel. 0:05:40.010 --> 0:05:42.400 I think once or twice in writing, once or twice verbally. 0:05:43.360 --> 0:05:46.120 But it wasn't provided, so I assumed that it didn't exist. 0:05:47.140 --> 0:05:49.400 The first time I became aware of it was during 0:05:49.440 --> 0:05:52.290 Article 32 when I was on the stand. And I 0:05:52.330 --> 0:05:54.550 was asked, did you take into account the statement of 0:05:54.610 --> 0:05:56.029 the survivor from that room? 0:05:57.610 --> 0:05:59.050 I stated, I'm. 0:05:59.330 --> 0:06:02.590 Peripherally aware that such a statement exists, but I've never 0:06:02.690 --> 0:06:05.790 seen it. And they said, well, what does peripherally aware mean? 0:06:06.370 --> 0:06:07.990 And I said, well, I'd heard that there was a 0:06:08.029 --> 0:06:11.630 survivor and that there was a statement, but I requested 0:06:11.690 --> 0:06:13.190 it and I wasn't provided it. 0:06:13.270 --> 0:06:15.030 Well, who did you request it? And I pointed to 0:06:15.070 --> 0:06:19.130 the prosecutor at that time. How many times? Several times. 0:06:19.940 --> 0:06:21.820 Would you like to see it now? Well, of course 0:06:21.900 --> 0:06:22.219 I would. 0:06:24.230 --> 0:06:28.410 When the Marine came into the room, he started firing. 0:06:28.450 --> 0:06:32.870 What he did, because I threw myself between the bed 0:06:33.190 --> 0:06:36.930 and the wall, he put his rifle muzzle under the bed. 0:07:01.900 --> 0:07:04.539 I know where she was. I had a void area 0:07:04.580 --> 0:07:06.740 in the room. I couldn't explain. A void area is 0:07:06.800 --> 0:07:09.400 where you expect blood spatter to be, but it's not 0:07:10.100 --> 0:07:11.820 because it hits something that's been moved. 0:07:12.520 --> 0:07:14.740 And it was a game changer for me. 0:07:14.780 --> 0:07:17.310 It was a You know, I don't want to ever 0:07:17.390 --> 0:07:19.630 overuse the phrase, but it was almost an epiphany of, 0:07:19.810 --> 0:07:21.050 I know what happened there now. 0:07:21.070 --> 0:07:27.440 Okay, we were all gathered in my mom's room. 0:07:27.540 --> 0:07:28.620 And when the. 0:07:28.560 --> 0:07:30.060 Marine came, he tossed a grenade. 0:07:30.100 --> 0:07:47.890 We backed up from the grenade. and he shut the door. 0:07:48.730 --> 0:07:50.070 The grenade did not go off. 0:07:51.110 --> 0:07:53.970 She talks about a Marine that crouched down, opens the door, 0:07:53.990 --> 0:07:56.210 and throws a grenade in. And all I can think 0:07:56.270 --> 0:07:58.560 of is Mendoza's statement where he says, I went down 0:07:58.600 --> 0:08:00.210 the hall, I crouched down, I opened the door, and 0:08:00.270 --> 0:08:00.810 I looked in. 0:08:00.830 --> 0:08:06.220 This area was exactly the area. 0:08:06.720 --> 0:08:09.000 The only thing I see is just women and kids. 0:08:10.180 --> 0:08:12.440 Just right now, it's clear. 0:08:12.460 --> 0:08:15.160 It's really clear, so you can see exactly what's in there. 0:08:15.570 --> 0:08:17.330 He didn't like it. Okay, I'll get to that in 0:08:17.350 --> 0:08:18.750 a minute. Just go ahead and do what you did, 0:08:19.190 --> 0:08:20.330 wait about the time that you did. 0:08:20.350 --> 0:08:22.150 And then do what you did when you left. 0:08:22.410 --> 0:08:23.510 Okay, just take me through that. 0:08:23.930 --> 0:08:26.430 Okay, sir, I'll wait just there, open the door, look 0:08:26.470 --> 0:08:33.410 exactly what's in there, and get outside. 0:08:34.090 --> 0:08:38.450 About 10 minutes after he tossed the grenade, he closed. 0:08:38.230 --> 0:08:40.990 The door, then we heard the sound of water running 0:08:41.010 --> 0:08:45.940 in the bathroom, pipes breaking, Ten. 0:08:45.660 --> 0:08:49.240 Minutes span that she went out the door to look. 0:08:51.120 --> 0:08:54.860 She says after a period of time, nothing happened. And 0:08:54.900 --> 0:08:57.559 then the same Marine that threw the grenade came through 0:08:57.580 --> 0:08:58.470 the door shooting. 0:08:59.520 --> 0:09:01.989 Could she see the Marine shooting or did she just 0:09:02.050 --> 0:09:03.290 hear the shots going off? 0:09:03.650 --> 0:09:06.510 There may have been a gun in my hand. There 0:09:06.530 --> 0:09:10.150 may have been a gun in my hand also. 0:09:19.610 --> 0:09:22.070 We had placed Wuderich in that room because of Tatum's 0:09:22.130 --> 0:09:25.430 statement against self-interest. So that's why Wuderich was the shooter 0:09:25.490 --> 0:09:30.110 in that room before Tatum. But here she's describing someone different. 0:09:30.790 --> 0:09:33.910 She's describing the man that threw the grenade in. And 0:09:33.929 --> 0:09:36.230 we have Mendoza stating that he opens the door and 0:09:36.250 --> 0:09:40.470 looks into the room. Same position, but without the action. I, 0:09:40.510 --> 0:09:44.880 for the first time, had serious doubt that Woodridge was 0:09:44.910 --> 0:09:45.960 the shooter in that room. 0:09:49.500 --> 0:09:52.900 Hi, this is Michael. Over the years, I have been 0:09:53.000 --> 0:09:56.250 asked where people can see the documentary film that this 0:09:56.330 --> 0:10:00.240 podcast is based on. Unfortunately, the answer is you can't. 0:10:00.860 --> 0:10:03.220 I was never able to find a home for that film. 0:10:03.960 --> 0:10:06.520 But with the release of Faultline Haditha, we're going to 0:10:06.580 --> 0:10:10.839 do something special. Every episode of this podcast is going 0:10:10.860 --> 0:10:13.979 to have a companion set of videos available on YouTube. 0:10:14.360 --> 0:10:17.199 So what you're listening to here All the footage that 0:10:17.260 --> 0:10:20.820 I shot over the years, more than 150 hours, you'll 0:10:20.860 --> 0:10:23.910 be able to see over there. There are links in 0:10:23.920 --> 0:10:27.170 the description to our YouTube channel, or you can just 0:10:27.290 --> 0:10:31.290 search for Faultline Haditha in YouTube and start watching. Make 0:10:31.470 --> 0:10:35.010 sure you like and subscribe here and in YouTube so 0:10:35.030 --> 0:10:37.270 you never miss an episode or a video. 0:10:37.929 --> 0:10:38.209 Thanks. 0:10:43.480 --> 0:10:45.920 Did she see the Marine shooting or did she just 0:10:45.940 --> 0:10:47.220 hear the shots going off? 0:10:50.980 --> 0:10:55.520 For months, Marine Corps prosecutors withheld videotaped testimony of the 0:10:55.640 --> 0:11:01.520 sole surviving witness in House 2 from their own forensic investigators. Now, 0:11:02.080 --> 0:11:06.330 on the witness stand, NCIS Special Agent Mike Maloney finally 0:11:06.400 --> 0:11:19.720 heard it for the first time. I, for the first time, 0:11:19.860 --> 0:11:24.120 had serious doubt that Wuderich was the shooter in that room. 0:11:24.740 --> 0:11:27.380 Up until then, I had no trouble having him occupy 0:11:27.420 --> 0:11:30.660 that shooting position. But at that point, I had serious 0:11:30.700 --> 0:11:33.120 doubt that he's the one that was in that shooting position. 0:11:33.580 --> 0:11:35.880 It seemed more likely to me that Mendoza was the 0:11:35.980 --> 0:11:39.050 one in that shooting position. And it made sense given 0:11:39.070 --> 0:11:41.489 the rest of his statement that we had analyzed. 0:11:42.090 --> 0:11:44.090 Now what I'd like you to do is do the 0:11:44.130 --> 0:11:45.870 same thing, and I assume you had a rifle. 0:11:46.290 --> 0:11:46.590 Yes, sir. 0:11:46.890 --> 0:11:50.510 Please do it with the rifle. And then back up 0:11:50.620 --> 0:11:51.980 and do the same thing that you did, just like 0:11:52.010 --> 0:11:52.680 you would have walked. 0:11:52.520 --> 0:11:53.080 Down the hallway. 0:11:53.260 --> 0:11:55.140 Okay, in the moment I had a three-point sling. 0:11:56.559 --> 0:11:57.780 His weapon was that sling. 0:11:58.540 --> 0:11:58.819 Why? 0:11:59.340 --> 0:12:01.140 Maybe his hands were busy with the grenade. 0:12:01.860 --> 0:12:06.760 So pretty much the weapon was all the time down. 0:12:08.380 --> 0:12:11.130 I open, and. 0:12:12.510 --> 0:12:15.430 By then, I had the weapon just kind of like hanging, 0:12:15.650 --> 0:12:18.449 just with a three-point sling, and the only thing I 0:12:18.470 --> 0:12:21.750 just see is weapons and kits again, and I closed 0:12:21.770 --> 0:12:22.380 the door, sir. 0:12:22.390 --> 0:12:22.670 Okay. 0:12:22.990 --> 0:12:24.890 When you say the weapon was hanging, that means you 0:12:24.910 --> 0:12:25.690 weren't ready to fire. 0:12:26.130 --> 0:12:26.410 No, sir. 0:12:26.429 --> 0:12:28.140 And that's your testimony? Yes, sir. 0:12:28.320 --> 0:12:28.800 Thank you very much. 0:12:28.860 --> 0:12:29.660 I'll take that right from there. 0:12:31.280 --> 0:12:34.030 I've been doing this a long time. People never make 0:12:34.090 --> 0:12:36.609 an outright lie up about what happened. It's too hard 0:12:36.670 --> 0:12:39.970 to track. It's too hard to keep consistent. They change 0:12:40.010 --> 0:12:42.050 those portions that they don't want you to know about, 0:12:42.070 --> 0:12:44.670 but the rest is the truth. Mendoza is telling the 0:12:44.710 --> 0:12:46.429 truth there. He did go down the hall. He did 0:12:46.510 --> 0:12:48.340 open the door. He did see women and children. He 0:12:48.390 --> 0:12:50.980 did close the door. He did back out of the hall. 0:12:51.520 --> 0:12:54.319 All those things are the truth, but the circumstances he 0:12:54.360 --> 0:12:56.280 gives it to us under doesn't make sense. 0:12:56.840 --> 0:12:58.580 I'm seeing 80% truths. 0:12:59.160 --> 0:13:01.439 He's changing those parts of the story that he doesn't 0:13:01.480 --> 0:13:02.800 want us to know for some reason. 0:13:06.480 --> 0:13:09.080 So when the one Marine came in and started shooting, 0:13:09.700 --> 0:13:10.240 what did you do? 0:13:10.260 --> 0:13:13.920 I hit myself between the bed and the wall. What 0:13:13.960 --> 0:13:14.800 happened next? 0:13:14.830 --> 0:13:14.900 Yes. 0:13:35.370 --> 0:13:45.309 After what happened, I don't know, after he shot the. 0:13:44.950 --> 0:14:05.780 Marine and that, I passed out. 0:14:05.800 --> 0:14:10.010 I don't know how long ago, but when I woke up, 0:14:11.490 --> 0:14:14.210 you know, I was too scared to get up to 0:14:14.250 --> 0:14:15.080 see what's going on. 0:14:15.130 --> 0:14:18.699 But I could see the bodies. I tried to wake 0:14:18.740 --> 0:14:22.520 up my sister. My hand went through her head. So 0:14:22.540 --> 0:14:25.360 she was shot in the head. So my hand went. 0:14:26.800 --> 0:14:27.280 Into her head. 0:14:34.040 --> 0:14:35.480 Do you remember where you were when you found out 0:14:35.500 --> 0:14:36.780 about Mendoza's immunity? 0:14:37.480 --> 0:14:40.660 I can only describe the feeling as viscerally becoming ill. 0:14:41.480 --> 0:14:44.700 Here was a guy that was most likely responsible or 0:14:44.740 --> 0:14:47.460 involved in that action in that back bedroom. And he's 0:14:47.500 --> 0:14:51.440 granted immunity when we know that his story is not accurate. 0:14:51.940 --> 0:14:54.400 We know his involvement was at a much higher level 0:14:54.420 --> 0:14:58.760 than he states. And he's granted immunity. I just remember 0:14:59.060 --> 0:15:01.900 just being viscerally ill and saying, what's going on here? 0:15:01.940 --> 0:15:05.640 This doesn't make sense. They're putting Mendoza on the stand 0:15:06.800 --> 0:15:08.280 and then they're going to put me on the stand 0:15:08.320 --> 0:15:10.540 and I'm going to show that Mendoza's version of events 0:15:10.600 --> 0:15:13.120 isn't true. I didn't know what the strategy was. It 0:15:13.160 --> 0:15:15.400 wasn't making sense to me. We were being kept in 0:15:15.440 --> 0:15:18.180 the dark and I just kept hoping that they had 0:15:18.260 --> 0:15:20.850 some big super picture they were aware of where all 0:15:20.880 --> 0:15:23.850 of this made sense and that they weren't offering immunity 0:15:23.890 --> 0:15:25.950 to people that may very well have been involved in 0:15:25.970 --> 0:15:26.430 the killing. 0:15:27.070 --> 0:15:29.870 Frustrated. Beyond frustration. 0:15:31.350 --> 0:15:34.130 By this point, They know you're not a team player, 0:15:34.430 --> 0:15:37.050 and you've been identified as a troublemaker. 0:15:38.150 --> 0:15:41.680 Hostile witness, defense expert, yeah, whatever. 0:15:42.200 --> 0:15:45.380 How does that manifest itself in terms of how you're 0:15:45.420 --> 0:15:47.680 treated in the court by the prosecution? 0:15:48.360 --> 0:15:52.530 I remember being pulled aside and being warned by someone 0:15:52.550 --> 0:15:56.130 who I won't mention here that there was actually an 0:15:56.250 --> 0:15:59.630 NCIS agent that was assigned to the courtroom for when 0:15:59.950 --> 0:16:03.520 Tom Brady or myself testified. And they had so many 0:16:03.580 --> 0:16:07.560 hours to report back to headquarters afterwards. I was concerned 0:16:07.620 --> 0:16:10.480 enough that I didn't know that I could testify freely 0:16:10.520 --> 0:16:14.840 and openly if I was being evaluated on whether or 0:16:14.900 --> 0:16:17.920 not I followed, whether or not what I said made 0:16:17.950 --> 0:16:19.370 NIST look bad or anything else. 0:16:19.390 --> 0:16:20.590 That's not how I function. 0:16:21.150 --> 0:16:23.050 But isn't that the role? Isn't that the whole point? 0:16:23.810 --> 0:16:26.730 To make you feel uncomfortable? If that was the point, 0:16:26.790 --> 0:16:29.360 it certainly worked. But, uh, We went ahead and we 0:16:29.400 --> 0:16:33.150 testified and just did what was right. It was incredibly 0:16:33.250 --> 0:16:37.450 uncomfortable because it's not going to change my testimony. And 0:16:37.530 --> 0:16:42.530 for me, that was a violation of investigative ethics that 0:16:42.570 --> 0:16:46.020 just we don't work for the prosecution or defense. And 0:16:46.160 --> 0:16:49.840 clearly we had taken sides on this one. And the 0:16:49.900 --> 0:16:51.460 pressure was just unbelievable. 0:16:52.920 --> 0:16:55.110 They were, in effect, telling you your career is on 0:16:55.120 --> 0:16:57.160 the line. We have a target on you. 0:16:57.260 --> 0:17:00.100 That was the message that I felt. That was certainly 0:17:00.140 --> 0:17:02.610 the message that came through to me loud and clear was, 0:17:03.830 --> 0:17:06.109 just as the email I discussed a little bit earlier, 0:17:06.150 --> 0:17:08.550 it was, you're not getting the message. 0:17:08.750 --> 0:17:10.690 We need you to get on board with this thing. 0:17:17.790 --> 0:17:20.830 When I first picked up my camera and started filming 0:17:21.270 --> 0:17:24.470 all the things you've heard in this podcast, the idea 0:17:24.490 --> 0:17:28.920 was that the United States government would deliberately or intentionally 0:17:29.350 --> 0:17:33.290 hide the truth in this case was honestly the furthest 0:17:33.350 --> 0:17:37.229 thing from my mind. Maybe I was being naive, but 0:17:37.270 --> 0:17:41.869 I trusted the process. But early on, it became clear 0:17:42.390 --> 0:17:47.920 something was seriously wrong. Marines were being granted immunity, charges 0:17:48.040 --> 0:17:51.220 were being dismissed, and all of it was in direct 0:17:51.320 --> 0:17:56.590 contradiction with to the government's own forensic evidence. I kept 0:17:56.830 --> 0:18:01.580 asking myself, why is the government prosecuting a case that 0:18:01.630 --> 0:18:07.439 can be disproven by its own forensic experts? Prosecutors seemed 0:18:07.820 --> 0:18:11.620 willing to say or do anything in order to convict 0:18:11.720 --> 0:18:16.230 Frank Wuderich, even if that meant granting immunity to Marines 0:18:16.290 --> 0:18:17.609 they knew were lying. 0:18:19.830 --> 0:18:21.510 I'd like to call Sergeant Delacruz to the witness stand. 0:18:24.050 --> 0:18:25.090 Please raise your right hand. 0:18:25.109 --> 0:18:27.850 Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you're about to 0:18:27.890 --> 0:18:30.030 give during this deposition shall be the truth, the whole truth, 0:18:30.090 --> 0:18:32.359 and nothing but the truth, so I'll be God? 0:18:32.380 --> 0:18:33.560 Please take a seat. 0:18:35.300 --> 0:18:39.080 Sonic Delacruz was the driver of the second Humvee on 0:18:39.100 --> 0:18:44.060 the morning of 19 November 2005, and was initially charged 0:18:44.359 --> 0:18:47.030 with four of the five deaths at roadside. 0:18:47.050 --> 0:18:53.600 All right, now your case was dismissed with prejudice. Is 0:18:53.619 --> 0:18:54.060 that correct? 0:18:55.780 --> 0:18:56.140 Yes, sir. 0:18:57.800 --> 0:19:01.419 This is Delacruz being cross-examined by one of Frank's lawyers, 0:19:01.940 --> 0:19:03.600 Lieutenant Colonel Colby Vokey. 0:19:04.460 --> 0:19:05.060 And what does that. 0:19:04.980 --> 0:19:05.640 Mean to. 0:19:08.190 --> 0:19:09.070 You? 0:19:10.030 --> 0:19:12.990 You can never be charged ever again with the crimes 0:19:13.010 --> 0:19:17.370 that you were charged with. The false statements and those murders, right? 0:19:17.390 --> 0:19:21.070 The five false statements, the five murders. Never again can 0:19:21.090 --> 0:19:22.330 you be charged with those, ever. 0:19:22.970 --> 0:19:23.190 Right? 0:19:23.210 --> 0:19:24.609 Yes, sir. 0:19:24.670 --> 0:19:27.770 I think Dela Cruz was clearly one of the most 0:19:27.869 --> 0:19:31.270 dishonest witnesses that you could ever put on a witness stand. 0:19:31.520 --> 0:19:31.910 Colby. 0:19:32.230 --> 0:19:35.620 It's almost hard to imagine if you were an attorney 0:19:35.720 --> 0:19:38.940 putting him on as a witness because it's like you 0:19:39.000 --> 0:19:41.660 know he's perjuring himself. How could you not know he's 0:19:41.660 --> 0:19:45.320 perjuring himself? He admits to perjuring himself. He admits to 0:19:45.320 --> 0:19:46.440 perjuring himself. 0:19:46.440 --> 0:19:47.139 That's right. 0:19:47.140 --> 0:19:50.020 Now, when you testified at the Article 32 for Lance 0:19:50.040 --> 0:19:54.639 Corporal Tatum last month, you said, no, there was no 0:19:54.660 --> 0:19:57.159 one coming to fire. 0:19:57.260 --> 0:19:57.540 Right? 0:19:58.220 --> 0:20:00.720 So, is this another thing that you lied about? 0:20:00.740 --> 0:20:02.380 Or were you just mistaken? 0:20:03.320 --> 0:20:04.300 I did lie about. 0:20:04.160 --> 0:20:04.500 That, sir. 0:20:07.340 --> 0:20:09.619 Frustrating from your point of view as a defense attorney? 0:20:10.000 --> 0:20:10.460 Absolutely. 0:20:10.480 --> 0:20:12.260 I mean, of course. 0:20:12.940 --> 0:20:13.320 Hathem. 0:20:14.030 --> 0:20:16.050 Frustrating not just as an attorney, but as a human 0:20:16.090 --> 0:20:19.930 being who is interested in understanding the truth of what happened. 0:20:29.710 --> 0:20:33.260 In the immediate aftermath of the IED attack, maybe a 0:20:33.320 --> 0:20:37.530 minute or two after the explosion... The Marines shot and 0:20:37.609 --> 0:20:41.360 killed five Iraqi men who had pulled their car off 0:20:41.560 --> 0:20:45.300 to the side of the road. Frank claimed that after 0:20:45.359 --> 0:20:49.960 the IED blast, he saw Delacruz shouting and running towards 0:20:50.000 --> 0:20:55.050 the five Iraqi men. The Iraqis turned and tried to run, 0:20:55.510 --> 0:20:59.649 so Frank took a knee and fired his weapon. The 0:20:59.690 --> 0:21:05.350 prosecution claimed otherwise. Based on the testimony and sworn statements 0:21:05.510 --> 0:21:09.910 of Sonic Delacruz, the Marine Corps charged Frank Witterich with 0:21:10.010 --> 0:21:13.710 walking up to the Iraqi civilians, demanding they get on 0:21:13.730 --> 0:21:17.280 their knees, put their hands above their heads, and then 0:21:17.450 --> 0:21:22.020 executed all of them at close range. But like so 0:21:22.100 --> 0:21:26.980 much else in this story, Delacruz's sensational allegation was simply 0:21:27.080 --> 0:21:31.400 not supported by the forensic evidence. In fact, Special Agent 0:21:31.420 --> 0:21:36.910 Brady's official reconstruction at Roadside concluded that based on wound dynamics, 0:21:37.450 --> 0:21:41.409 the position of the bodies, blood pooling, and most importantly, 0:21:41.830 --> 0:21:46.409 a large metal container blocking Wuderich's field of view, the 0:21:46.490 --> 0:21:51.400 primary shooter at Roadside was not Frank Wuderich, but Sonic Delacruz. 0:21:51.420 --> 0:21:54.640 I think it was around 5 o'clock in the evening 0:21:54.859 --> 0:21:59.710 in Carlsbad, California, south of Camp Pendleton. I'm there watching 0:21:59.750 --> 0:22:02.770 Dela Cruz play out positioning with a prosecutor. 0:22:03.650 --> 0:22:07.030 Tom was the last interview I conducted for this podcast. 0:22:08.010 --> 0:22:11.110 He was an even more reluctant witness than Mike Maloney. 0:22:12.250 --> 0:22:14.950 If Mike is something of a lovable bull in a 0:22:14.990 --> 0:22:20.320 proverbial China shop, Tom is the ultimate team player. even-tempered, 0:22:20.720 --> 0:22:25.040 unfailingly loyal. The idea that Tom would publicly speak out 0:22:25.240 --> 0:22:29.290 against the NCIS or the United States Marine Corps, two 0:22:29.430 --> 0:22:33.550 institutions he had dedicated his life to, was something he 0:22:33.590 --> 0:22:38.690 was profoundly reluctant to do. But Tom, like Mike, was 0:22:38.750 --> 0:22:43.199 upset by the way Haditha had been prosecuted. Upset by 0:22:43.240 --> 0:22:48.200 the lack of accountability in this case. So, After years 0:22:48.500 --> 0:22:51.659 and years of being badgered by me, Tom flew up 0:22:51.720 --> 0:22:55.990 from his home in Jacksonville, Florida, to Washington, D.C., which 0:22:56.050 --> 0:22:59.189 is where he finally told me the truth about the 0:22:59.250 --> 0:23:04.050 government's decision to dismiss Sonic Dela Cruz's charges and grant 0:23:04.090 --> 0:23:04.690 him immunity. 0:23:05.410 --> 0:23:08.470 So it's being narrated for me as Dela Cruz is 0:23:08.580 --> 0:23:11.180 out in a parking lot of this hotel, and he says, 0:23:11.859 --> 0:23:15.179 talked with a prosecution team. There was dialogue, you know, 0:23:15.500 --> 0:23:17.980 not so much shouting, but he was at a distance. 0:23:18.460 --> 0:23:22.340 So he was trying to show us distance, perspective and 0:23:22.380 --> 0:23:26.740 distance of where the players were. I recall just quickly 0:23:26.859 --> 0:23:29.950 into this, quickly into this narrative, it just wasn't supported 0:23:30.010 --> 0:23:33.230 for me. It just didn't make sense to me. He 0:23:33.250 --> 0:23:37.770 was changing his position and he was prescribing the majority 0:23:37.790 --> 0:23:41.980 of the shots, the fatal shots, to Staff Sergeant Wouterich, 0:23:42.040 --> 0:23:44.500 that Staff Sergeant Wouterich was not taking a knee, that 0:23:44.520 --> 0:23:47.680 he actually approached and came and walked in and around 0:23:47.700 --> 0:23:51.359 the deceased at roadside and then shot him all, I believe, 0:23:51.400 --> 0:23:57.310 in the head. So there was obviously a suggestion of execution. Again, 0:23:57.510 --> 0:24:00.669 very intimately involved with this case, knew my case facts. 0:24:01.050 --> 0:24:03.609 I mean, I lived and breathed this. So as he 0:24:03.650 --> 0:24:08.850 was explaining his his narrative, his new statement, and we're 0:24:08.869 --> 0:24:13.960 going through the distances, his distances weren't necessarily off. His 0:24:14.000 --> 0:24:17.760 positioning didn't make sense based on the wounds and the 0:24:17.820 --> 0:24:22.380 topography of the site and previous statements. So I, it just, 0:24:22.740 --> 0:24:24.660 there's no other way to say it. It just was 0:24:24.720 --> 0:24:29.270 not supported. And I quickly was able to recognize that 0:24:29.290 --> 0:24:33.900 it was not supported. So The prosecutor was with me 0:24:33.960 --> 0:24:35.899 at the time. We were side by side. I was 0:24:35.940 --> 0:24:40.240 outside in the parking lot pretty much. I just advised 0:24:40.619 --> 0:24:43.700 the prosecutorial team, whom was ever there at the time, 0:24:43.760 --> 0:24:47.909 that I just didn't, this data, I don't need to 0:24:47.970 --> 0:24:52.270 change anything. I'm not using this data. It's not, I 0:24:52.310 --> 0:24:55.090 don't believe that this is supported. This is not what 0:24:55.130 --> 0:24:58.209 my analysis shows. I was just, I was in opposition 0:24:58.280 --> 0:25:00.919 to his statements. So I don't know how else to 0:25:00.980 --> 0:25:03.730 put it other than He's lying. It didn't fit for me, 0:25:03.750 --> 0:25:07.649 and it doesn't, yeah. Lying is probably the most accurate 0:25:07.670 --> 0:25:08.490 way to state it. 0:25:09.830 --> 0:25:11.450