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Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised.

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Speaker 2: This book is about loyalty to one's country and one's community.

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Speaker 2: It's also about the American dream, but it's about like

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Speaker 2: a failed American dream. The individual at the center of

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Speaker 2: the story wants all of these things for himself and

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Speaker 2: his family, but he's willing to sell out the United

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Speaker 2: States in order to achieve those ends.

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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor

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Speaker 1: in Austin, Texas. I'm also the host of the historical

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Speaker 1: true crime podcast tenfold More Wicked, as well as the

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Speaker 1: co host of the new show Buried Bones, both on

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Speaker 1: Exactly Right. I've traveled around the world interviewing people for

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Speaker 1: the show. I've interviewed some people in person and some

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Speaker 1: from my home studio over zoom, and they are all

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Speaker 1: excellent writers. I've had so many great true crime stories,

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Speaker 1: and now we want to tell you those stories with

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Speaker 1: details that have never been published. Tenfold More Wicked presents

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Speaker 1: Wicked Words is about the choices that writers make, good

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Speaker 1: and bad. It's a deep dive into the stories behind

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Speaker 1: the stories.

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Speaker 2: My name is you digit, but a chargee I'm a

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Speaker 2: magazine writer and a book author.

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Speaker 1: Tell me the title of your first book, because I

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Speaker 1: love the title.

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Speaker 2: It's called a spy who couldn't spell author?

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Speaker 1: You digit but a chargy loves a good spy story,

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Speaker 1: and this one could have ended in disaster for the

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Speaker 1: United States. Instead, it chronicles how one man could have

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Speaker 1: caused so much damage to his country and why he

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Speaker 1: did it. What is this book about to you?

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Speaker 2: It's about a person's sort of struggle for dignity and

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Speaker 2: their desire to be seen as someone who's to be respected.

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Speaker 2: So it's really it's a narrative of a person's quest

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Speaker 2: for respect, but layered on top of that is the

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Speaker 2: quest for money for comfortable living and the twisted, sort

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Speaker 2: of perverse ways in which that person then goes about

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Speaker 2: trying to get that well being and respect.

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Speaker 1: And all of that is wrapped around some incredibly high

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Speaker 1: stakes for the United States. So let's start with the

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Speaker 1: time period. Where are we in the world and in

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Speaker 1: the United States.

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Speaker 2: So we're in the late nineties, you know, starting sometime

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Speaker 2: nineteen ninety seven ninety eight is when the story begins

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Speaker 2: to unfold, and it sort of goes on through two

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Speaker 2: thousand and three when the US has gone into Iraq

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Speaker 2: for the second time to depose Saddam Hussein. So the

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Speaker 2: story sort of unfolds between the late nineties and the

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Speaker 2: early two thousands, And of course there were lots of

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Speaker 2: changes in the world between those two dates. You know,

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Speaker 2: we had nine to one one, which occurred in two

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Speaker 2: thousand and one, and then there was the invasion of

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Speaker 2: Iraq after that.

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Speaker 1: And what is the sentiment of Americans during this time

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Speaker 1: period regarding the Middle East.

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Speaker 2: Well, the United States population at that point is pretty

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Speaker 2: much agreed on their outlook toward the Middle East and

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Speaker 2: Afghanistan because of the events of nine to one one.

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Speaker 2: I'm talking about the period sort of both leading up

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Speaker 2: to nine one one and the years that followed. In

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Speaker 2: the lead up to nine one one, the United States

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Speaker 2: was already sort of in a conflict with Saddam Hussein.

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Speaker 2: The United States was worried about terrorism, but most people

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Speaker 2: didn't really take it seriously, even though there had been

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Speaker 2: terrorist attacks on Americans. Nine to one to one changed

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Speaker 2: all of that. So Americans were by in law large

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Speaker 2: not favorably disposed toward the Middle East, and they felt

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Speaker 2: that many countries in the Middle East including Iraq, Iran, Libya,

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Speaker 2: were hostile to the United States.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so where do we enter the story.

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Speaker 2: It starts in the year two thousand, when the story

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Speaker 2: sort of grabs the American government's attention, and it begins

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Speaker 2: with the FBI receiving a tip from a source in

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Speaker 2: the Libyan consulate in New York. The Libyans had received

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Speaker 2: three anonymous packages from an anonymous sender that included one

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Speaker 2: a coded letter offering to sell American secrets to the Libyans,

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Speaker 2: two a package containing a sample of the kinds of

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Speaker 2: secrets that were on sale, and three a codebook with

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Speaker 2: which it was possible to decode this coded letter that

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Speaker 2: was in the first package. So this was sort of

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Speaker 2: an intriguing set of materials that the Libyans had received,

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Speaker 2: and thanks to a source in the Libyan consulate, the

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Speaker 2: FBI was able to get these materials and when they

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Speaker 2: decoded the letter, they saw that it was a long

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Speaker 2: and detailed offer of secrets of classified secrets pertaining to

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Speaker 2: American military assets in space and on the ground that

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Speaker 2: would be advantageous to a hostile country like Libya.

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Speaker 1: So two questions, One, what motivates someone at the Libyan

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Speaker 1: consulate to turn this information over. Is this not something

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Speaker 1: that they would value or was this one individual who

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Speaker 1: just wanted to do the right thing.

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Speaker 2: Well, this would be the right thing from the Americans perspective,

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Speaker 2: I mean, this might not be the right thing from

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Speaker 2: the Libyan's perspective. I frankly don't know, because the FBI

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Speaker 2: doesn't disclose its sources and methods, especially when it comes

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Speaker 2: to counterintelligence. But one would assume that this was somebody

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Speaker 2: in the Libyan consulate who was on the payroll of

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Speaker 2: the American government. Basically, somebody who was a spy for

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Speaker 2: US working on behalf of America in the Libyan consulate.

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Speaker 1: So someone within the Libyan consulate turns over this very

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Speaker 1: cryptic package to the FBI.

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Speaker 2: A special agent in the Washington Field Office named Stephen

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Speaker 2: Carr is assigned this case, and so his job is

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Speaker 2: to try and first find out what this letter says,

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Speaker 2: what these materials are, and once he has figured out

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Speaker 2: that this is a serious threat, because this is indeed

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Speaker 2: a real offer to sell classified information, so they basically

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Speaker 2: try various things to try and figure out where this

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Speaker 2: package was mailed from and who the person behind it was. Finally,

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Speaker 2: they succeed in tracking down the specific computers from which

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Speaker 2: some of the classified materials included in that sample package

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Speaker 2: were printed from.

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Speaker 1: Wow.

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Speaker 2: So it's really the early days of digital forensics of

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Speaker 2: this kind, and that's what leads them to a few

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Speaker 2: computers in the National's Reconnaissance Office, which is one of

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Speaker 2: eighteen or nineteen intelligence agencies in the United States. It's

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Speaker 2: one of the more secretive agencies, but it's a very powerful,

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Speaker 2: very important agency that is responsible for launching and running

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Speaker 2: all of these spy satellites that provide the US with

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Speaker 2: extremely valuable reconnaissance information imagery of military installations around the world,

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Speaker 2: both in allied countries as well as in hostile nations

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Speaker 2: like Libya and Iran.

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Speaker 1: How many people work for this department or agent.

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Speaker 2: Thousands of people work for this agency, Okay. It is

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Speaker 2: a really large organization that's been around for close to

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Speaker 2: sixty years. It was born right at the beginning of

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Speaker 2: the Cold War, when the United States and the Soviet

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Speaker 2: Union were sort of fighting for domination of space, and

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Speaker 2: both the US and the Soviet Union recognized that aerial

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Speaker 2: imagery was a very important capability in order to fight

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Speaker 2: the enemy.

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Speaker 1: Could Stephen Carr tell with the FBI what level this

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Speaker 1: person had to be within this agency to have access

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Speaker 1: to this information, because I'm assuming not all the thousands

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Speaker 1: of people who work for the agency have this level

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Speaker 1: of access.

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Speaker 2: Because some of these documents that have been included actually

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Speaker 2: came from classified materials that were only accessible to people

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Speaker 2: who had top secret clearance. He knew that this was

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Speaker 2: symbol with sufficient clearance and enough access to lots of

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Speaker 2: important information. But of course even that number is in

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Speaker 2: the thousands. There are thousands of people in the US

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Speaker 2: who have that kind of clearance, so that it was

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Speaker 2: not an easy task to figure out who it was.

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Speaker 1: If this were murder, you would talk to the FBI

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Speaker 1: behavioral science to profile this person. Are they doing that?

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Speaker 1: Are they saying, white male in his thirties who has

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Speaker 1: a low income.

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Speaker 2: Well, they did start to do some profiling of this person,

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Speaker 2: and they figured out that he was somebody who used

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Speaker 2: public libraries a lot, and that he had been using

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Speaker 2: public libraries in order to do some of the work

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Speaker 2: that was needed to put together this package. So that

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Speaker 2: was one thing that they were able to determine through

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Speaker 2: their investigation. One important clue that they had about the

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Speaker 2: person came from spelling errors in the letter, which is

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Speaker 2: why the book is called a spy who couldn't spell.

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Speaker 2: And so they figured out that this individual perhaps had

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Speaker 2: severe dyslexia, and that helped them to narrow down the

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Speaker 2: pool of suspects considerably. And so once they had these

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Speaker 2: two pieces of information, the fact that these materials had

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Speaker 2: been printed from the National Reconnaissance Office and to the

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Speaker 2: fact that this person probably had dyslexia, they were able

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Speaker 2: to quickly figure out that the individual was a guy

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Speaker 2: named Brian Reagan, who was a Monster sergeant, a signals

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Speaker 2: analyst who had worked in the Air Force and had

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Speaker 2: been working at the National Reconnaissance Office since nineteen ninety five.

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Speaker 1: Tell me what a signals analyst does with the FBI.

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Speaker 2: So when you're engaging with an enemy or you're snooping

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Speaker 2: on an enemy, you're trying to figure out exactly what

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Speaker 2: they're doing, how many assets they have on the ground,

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Speaker 2: how many airplanes they have, how many tanks they're deploying,

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Speaker 2: everything of that sort. And a lot of that information

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Speaker 2: comes from listening in on the communications in between going

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Speaker 2: on between different elements of their military. And that's what

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Speaker 2: signals analysts do.

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Speaker 1: So, Special Agent Stephen Carr figures out that this man,

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Speaker 1: Brian Reagan is the one behind this. Do they immediately

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Speaker 1: go and arrest him.

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Speaker 2: Because they don't have enough evidence to go and arrest him,

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Speaker 2: and they also don't know how much material he has stolen,

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Speaker 2: how much material he might have passed on to enemies,

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Speaker 2: So they must figure all of this out. All they

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Speaker 2: figured out is that the person who wrote this letter,

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Speaker 2: who made this offer to the Libyans, was most likely

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Speaker 2: Brian Reagan. That's all they know. But they can't just

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Speaker 2: go and arrest him. They want to catch him red

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Speaker 2: handed or they want to figure out exactly what he

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Speaker 2: has done because you know, if you go and arrest somebody,

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Speaker 2: they might say, well, I didn't do anything. You know,

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Speaker 2: you can't link me to these letters. What's the proof

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Speaker 2: that I wrote these letters? So they needed a watertight case,

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Speaker 2: and in order to do that, they continued the investigation.

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Speaker 2: They started to follow Brian Reagan, They put him under surveillance.

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Speaker 1: What did they find out about Brian Reagan in his

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Speaker 1: personal life? You know, lay that out is what is

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Speaker 1: his background?

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Speaker 2: Like Brian Reagan they figure out is a man who's

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Speaker 2: two years or one year away from retirement. In fact,

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Speaker 2: what they figure out is that he has just retired

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Speaker 2: from the Air Force after twenty years of service. Because

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Speaker 2: remember I said that they received this letter, they were

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Speaker 2: able to intercept this letter in late two thousand and

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Speaker 2: Brian Reagan, it turns out, had retired in August of

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Speaker 2: two thousand.

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Speaker 1: Oh wow, Okay, so.

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Speaker 2: They know that he is now working with a defense

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Speaker 2: contractor after having served twenty years in the Air Force,

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Speaker 2: five of which he served as a signals analyst at

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Speaker 2: the National Reconnaissance Office. So they know that he's had

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Speaker 2: this twenty year background in the Air Force. They know

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Speaker 2: that he's got four kids, you know, four young kids.

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Speaker 2: In fact, the youngest one was barely one or two

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Speaker 2: years old at the time in early two thousand and one,

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Speaker 2: which is when you know this investigation is happening. Brian

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Speaker 2: Reagan lives in Maryland and his wife is a housewife

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Speaker 2: who's busy caring for the kids. And they figure out

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Speaker 2: that even though Brian Reagan is not kind of an

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Speaker 2: extravagant spender, he does have significant credit card debt and

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Speaker 2: it comes from just basically being a poor manager of

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Speaker 2: his money. They realize that he's in some financial distress

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Speaker 2: because he has four kids and because he's concerned about

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Speaker 2: providing for his family on just his retirement income. So

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Speaker 2: they're trying to figure out what mindset he must have

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Speaker 2: been in when he decided to commit espionage, because clearly

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Speaker 2: his decision to commit espionage most likely was made when

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Speaker 2: he was still working at the NRO well before his retirement.

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Speaker 2: Through their investigation, they're able to find out that for

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Speaker 2: months and months prior to his retirement from the NRO,

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Speaker 2: Brian Reagan has been coming in to the office at

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Speaker 2: odd hours, and that he has been going into the

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Speaker 2: printer room repeatedly and printing out copious amounts of so

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Speaker 2: once they figure out that it is Brian Reagan, they're

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Speaker 2: able to look into Brian Reagan's search history on what's

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Speaker 2: known as intel Link, which is an intranet. It's a secure,

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Speaker 2: classified system of servers that connects the various intelligence agencies,

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Speaker 2: and it's on these servers that a lot of the

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Speaker 2: nation's secrets resided at the time. So from all of that,

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Speaker 2: they were able to deduce that he had probably been

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Speaker 2: printing out classified secrets and then removing them from the NRO.

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Speaker 1: So in the year two thousand. Someone who's at a

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Speaker 1: high level in a government agency, would they expect this

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Speaker 1: level of ability with federal agents to digitally track them.

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Speaker 2: That kind of forensics was still in its early stages

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Speaker 2: of development back then, and so it's easy to imagine

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Speaker 2: that the perpetrator, Brian Reagan in this case, would not

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Speaker 2: have anticipated that the government would be able to track

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Speaker 2: his computer activity and then figure out that he had

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Speaker 2: been doing all of this. But you know, there were

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Speaker 2: people in the Air Force Office of Special Investigations and

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Speaker 2: at the National Reconnaissance Office who were trained to do this,

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Speaker 2: and so they did have some mechanisms of tracking it,

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Speaker 2: but there were cumbersome mechanisms. You know, they had to

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Speaker 2: go through just tons and tons of logs, and it

255
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Speaker 2: wasn't very easy for them to track exactly what Brian

256
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Speaker 2: Reagan had been doing, exactly with sites he had been visiting.

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Speaker 2: It took a lot of work over months to figure

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Speaker 2: all of that out.

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Speaker 1: And I can't imagine that anybody working in this agency

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Speaker 1: would have any sort of a criminal record whatsoever.

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Speaker 2: Well, no, because anyone who works at any of these

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Speaker 2: agencies has to go through a very rigorous background check,

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Speaker 2: and you know, in order to get a security clearance,

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Speaker 2: especially a top secret security clearance, you're subjected to multiple

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Speaker 2: checks and Brian Reagan had been subjected to all of

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Speaker 2: those checks. But he had received a security clearance several

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Speaker 2: years prior and that was still active when he decided

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Speaker 2: to steal all of this information. People don't start out

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Speaker 2: as spies. I mean, at some point they developed the

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Speaker 2: intention to sell the country's secrets and make money off

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Speaker 2: of it. And that's what happened with Brian Reagan.

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Speaker 1: So tell me what could have happened if he had

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Speaker 1: found the right buyer Libya or Afghanistan or somebody.

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Speaker 2: Let's just say Brian Reagan is able to transmit this

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Speaker 2: letter to a Libyan official, which may have happened, and

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Speaker 2: then he's able to transfer some of these secrets to

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Speaker 2: the Libyans. Well, the Libyans could have then turned around

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Speaker 2: and sold it to Saddam Hussein and that would have

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Speaker 2: helped dam Hussein prolong the war in Iraq or other

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Speaker 2: countries like Iran would have found out exactly what spy

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Speaker 2: satellites the US had access to, and based on their

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Speaker 2: knowledge of the orbits of these satellites, they could have

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Speaker 2: decided to build new nuclear bunkers, or they could have

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Speaker 2: decided to shift their air defense around so that it

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Speaker 2: would not be visible and not be photographable by those

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Speaker 2: spy satellites.

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Speaker 1: So Stephen Carr and the FBI, and I'm assuming maybe

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Speaker 1: other agencies are surveilling him, what's the next step.

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Speaker 2: At one point, he slips through surveillance and at the

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Speaker 2: last minute, the FBI realizes that he has flown to Switzerland,

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Speaker 2: and even though the FBI doesn't know exactly what he's

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Speaker 2: doing there, they later realize that he has gone to

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Speaker 2: the Libyan consulate and burn in Switzerland, hoping to make

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Speaker 2: a deal with the Libyans, and it's unclear to the

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Speaker 2: investigators at that point in time whether he's succeeded in

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Speaker 2: doing so.

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Speaker 1: So they're panicked.

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Speaker 2: They are panicked, and so they are continuing to track him.

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Speaker 2: They know that he probably has hidden a lot of

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Speaker 2: stolen classified secrets and they want to recover those secrets.

301
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Speaker 2: They want to find out if he's already transmitted any

302
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Speaker 2: of those secrets, and the only way to do that,

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Speaker 2: they eventually decide, is to try to catch him red handed,

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Speaker 2: and so they had a plan to do so. They

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Speaker 2: find out that he is waiting to get his security

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Speaker 2: clearance reinstated, because after retirement, you lose your security clearance.

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Speaker 2: And then he had started working for a defense contractor,

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Speaker 2: which was going to place him back at the National

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Speaker 2: Reconnaissance Office to work on a project. But Stephen Carr

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Speaker 2: goes to the director of the NRO, Keith Hall, and says, look,

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Speaker 2: let's have him back here. Let's give him back his

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Speaker 2: security clearance so that he can start working again at

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Speaker 2: the NRO as a defense contractor, because that will give

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Speaker 2: us a chance to monitor his every move and then

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Speaker 2: catch him in the act of trying to sell secrets.

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Speaker 1: That's still a little nerve wracking.

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Speaker 2: I imagine that it's absolutely nerve wracking, And from the

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Speaker 2: NRO's point of view, it's extremely nerve wracking because the

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Speaker 2: NRO's already pretty shocked that one of their employees has

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Speaker 2: been stealing secrets, and so they want to have nothing

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Speaker 2: to do with him. They want to forget this whole episode.

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Speaker 2: But the FBI says, look, we can't just let him go.

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Speaker 2: We have to catch him and we have to prosecute him.

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Speaker 2: So we need all the evidence in order to prosecute him,

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Speaker 2: because only then can we fully figure out what he

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Speaker 2: has done? And so Keith Hall, in what I think

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Speaker 2: was a very bold step, says yes. But he says,

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Speaker 2: you have only four months in which to complete this,

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Speaker 2: because we won't give you longer than that. So we

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Speaker 2: can have Brian Reagan back in our facilities, but there's

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Speaker 2: a time limit to how long he can work here.

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Speaker 1: So Brian comes home from Switzerland. We don't know if

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Speaker 1: he's made a deal with anybody else, We don't know

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Speaker 1: what he's taken with him. He comes home to Maryland

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Speaker 1: to his kids and then starts this new job.

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Speaker 2: Before his first day, the FBI has cameras rigged in

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Speaker 2: his cubicle so that they can photograph him at all times.

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Speaker 2: You know, they've increased their surveillance of him, so they're

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Speaker 2: tracking everything that he's doing. They're monitoring his computer at

340
00:22:01,119 --> 00:22:04,760
Speaker 2: the workplace so that they can log every keystroke. In fact,

341
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Speaker 2: there's investigators who are watching on a screen in a

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Speaker 2: little office at Bannaro. They're watching him at all times

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Speaker 2: and they're following what he's doing on his computer. They

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Speaker 2: can see everything, and sure enough, you know, within just

345
00:22:22,640 --> 00:22:25,800
Speaker 2: the first day that he's at work, he starts doing

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00:22:25,880 --> 00:22:30,480
Speaker 2: searches for classified information that has nothing to do with

347
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Speaker 2: his particular assignment, and so that's like bingo. He's back

348
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Speaker 2: to trying to collect information again.

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Speaker 1: How long do they let this go on, this monitoring

350
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Speaker 1: him while he is access to incredibly crucial information.

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Speaker 2: A couple of weeks and then Brian Reagan tells his

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Speaker 2: boss that he's going down to Orlando with his kids

353
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Speaker 2: for vacation, and his boss says, sure, that's fine, and

354
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Speaker 2: the FBI quickly figures out that he's actually going back

355
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Speaker 2: to Switzerland and that he's planning to go to Switzerland.

356
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Speaker 2: He finishes up at work and he's about to leave

357
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Speaker 2: to catch his flight, and the FBI, using a ruse,

358
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Speaker 2: takes him away from his desk and photographs all the

359
00:23:18,680 --> 00:23:22,800
Speaker 2: contents of his bag and his suitcase which he's got

360
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Speaker 2: in his vehicle because he's ready to drive to the airport,

361
00:23:26,160 --> 00:23:30,960
Speaker 2: and so they photograph everything, and they find in his

362
00:23:31,080 --> 00:23:35,320
Speaker 2: luggage a few more sensitive things pieces of evidence that

363
00:23:35,480 --> 00:23:39,040
Speaker 2: show that he's again carrying some information with him in

364
00:23:39,160 --> 00:23:42,639
Speaker 2: order to try to make a deal. He also is

365
00:23:42,760 --> 00:23:46,360
Speaker 2: carrying with him a Manila folder, but at this point

366
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Speaker 2: he's about to fly out of the country. When Steven

367
00:23:49,240 --> 00:23:52,679
Speaker 2: Carr and his colleagues show up at the airport and

368
00:23:52,800 --> 00:23:57,000
Speaker 2: arrest him, what's his reaction, Well, his reaction is a

369
00:23:57,000 --> 00:24:00,840
Speaker 2: little bit shocked, but also defiant because he is quite

370
00:24:00,880 --> 00:24:05,240
Speaker 2: confident that they don't have any evidence against him. He

371
00:24:05,359 --> 00:24:07,800
Speaker 2: thinks that he's done his best to cover his tracks.

372
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Speaker 2: Stephen Carr sits down with him at the airport. He

373
00:24:11,359 --> 00:24:14,399
Speaker 2: pushes these copies of sheets that were found in his

374
00:24:14,480 --> 00:24:18,440
Speaker 2: Manila folder and says, what are these things? And these

375
00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:22,400
Speaker 2: are sheets filled with a series of letters and numbers

376
00:24:22,840 --> 00:24:26,360
Speaker 2: that don't make any sense. And the FBI suspects that

377
00:24:26,440 --> 00:24:29,560
Speaker 2: this is some kind of code, but they don't know

378
00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:31,720
Speaker 2: what it is, and so when they show it to him,

379
00:24:31,760 --> 00:24:34,840
Speaker 2: he says, oh, it's nothing. I just like to play

380
00:24:34,840 --> 00:24:37,840
Speaker 2: with numbers and letters. But that's where sort of the

381
00:24:37,880 --> 00:24:42,399
Speaker 2: investigation now starts to focus on these cryptic sheets that

382
00:24:42,520 --> 00:24:46,879
Speaker 2: were found in his folder because Brian Reagan isn't confessing

383
00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:49,399
Speaker 2: to anything, and he isn't going to tell them what

384
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Speaker 2: these sheets mean.

385
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Speaker 1: Well, why is it important to know what these sheets mean?

386
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Speaker 2: They have evidence that he sent these letters to the

387
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Speaker 2: Libyan consulate, but they don't know what he has done

388
00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:05,760
Speaker 2: with those materials. I mean, there's plenty of unanswered questions

389
00:25:05,840 --> 00:25:11,159
Speaker 2: about Brian Reagan's activities, and so if these sheets are code,

390
00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:15,120
Speaker 2: there needs to be an accounting for that in order

391
00:25:15,160 --> 00:25:17,560
Speaker 2: to figure out what Brian Reagan has done.

392
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Speaker 1: So in that initial package, didn't he send a code

393
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Speaker 1: breaker guide?

394
00:25:24,320 --> 00:25:27,560
Speaker 2: Yes he did, but that was a very simple code.

395
00:25:27,600 --> 00:25:32,560
Speaker 2: He had abbreviations for various words. But in this instance,

396
00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:37,040
Speaker 2: these sheets that the government discovered in a Manila folder

397
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Speaker 2: that he was going to take with him to Switzerland,

398
00:25:40,320 --> 00:25:45,000
Speaker 2: there were no clues as to how this could be decoded.

399
00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:49,480
Speaker 2: The FBI had a task on hand, which was to

400
00:25:49,520 --> 00:25:54,399
Speaker 2: try and figure out what these mysterious letters and numbers meant.

401
00:25:54,520 --> 00:25:58,200
Speaker 2: Along with these sheets, they also found in between the

402
00:25:58,240 --> 00:26:02,280
Speaker 2: inner and outer soul of shoe, they found a piece

403
00:26:02,320 --> 00:26:07,760
Speaker 2: of paper with another code on it. In his wallet,

404
00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:13,800
Speaker 2: they found index cards with words like cycle, rocket again

405
00:26:13,960 --> 00:26:16,760
Speaker 2: which they thought was part of some kind of code.

406
00:26:17,040 --> 00:26:22,120
Speaker 2: And then they found written somewhere among his various belongings

407
00:26:22,320 --> 00:26:26,160
Speaker 2: to addresses, and those addresses turned out to be the

408
00:26:26,240 --> 00:26:30,840
Speaker 2: address of the Libyan embassy in France and a Libyan

409
00:26:30,880 --> 00:26:35,159
Speaker 2: embassy in Switzerland, so they knew that he was carrying

410
00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:38,040
Speaker 2: these addresses with him so that he could go and

411
00:26:38,080 --> 00:26:39,560
Speaker 2: locate the Libyans.

412
00:26:40,080 --> 00:26:41,960
Speaker 1: Was there a good chance that he had actually found

413
00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:42,399
Speaker 1: a buyer?

414
00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:47,720
Speaker 2: Yes, there was, because remember that the FBI, despite having

415
00:26:47,840 --> 00:26:51,560
Speaker 2: kept him under surveillance, they had lost him at one point.

416
00:26:51,720 --> 00:26:53,800
Speaker 2: They were surprised by the fact that he was able

417
00:26:53,800 --> 00:26:57,919
Speaker 2: to fly to Switzerland, and so despite having had him

418
00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:01,560
Speaker 2: under surveillance, they weren't sure about the things that they

419
00:27:01,600 --> 00:27:04,280
Speaker 2: had missed, and so it was entirely possible that he

420
00:27:04,320 --> 00:27:07,040
Speaker 2: had already made contact with a buyer.

421
00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:10,959
Speaker 1: So he is defiant. He says, you don't have anything

422
00:27:11,040 --> 00:27:14,040
Speaker 1: on me. I didn't do anything wrong. And the people

423
00:27:14,080 --> 00:27:17,639
Speaker 1: in charge of trying to sort out this code are stymied.

424
00:27:17,800 --> 00:27:22,200
Speaker 1: I'm assuming because the code probably has been influenced by

425
00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:23,200
Speaker 1: his dyslexia.

426
00:27:23,280 --> 00:27:26,520
Speaker 2: Is that right, Yes, to some extent. You know that

427
00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:30,600
Speaker 2: dyslexia is a complicating factor. But first they have to

428
00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:33,440
Speaker 2: just figure out what the code is to begin with,

429
00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:37,000
Speaker 2: so they're at a loss. And all of these papers

430
00:27:37,040 --> 00:27:41,400
Speaker 2: then go to an FBI crypt analyst named Daniel Olson

431
00:27:41,880 --> 00:27:44,879
Speaker 2: who works at the FBI lab in Quantico. He is

432
00:27:44,920 --> 00:27:49,320
Speaker 2: an interesting character. He's one of the FBI's top code breakers,

433
00:27:49,480 --> 00:27:53,200
Speaker 2: but most of his life he's worked on coded letters

434
00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:56,960
Speaker 2: that prison gangs used to communicate with one another, but

435
00:27:57,080 --> 00:28:01,600
Speaker 2: he's not handled an espionage case, and so he takes

436
00:28:01,640 --> 00:28:05,080
Speaker 2: this on as a challenge, and he's able to decode

437
00:28:05,520 --> 00:28:09,840
Speaker 2: one of those index cards and that turns out to

438
00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:13,359
Speaker 2: be an address. So he's able to decode only a

439
00:28:13,359 --> 00:28:17,080
Speaker 2: couple of things, but most of the materials, including these

440
00:28:17,160 --> 00:28:20,680
Speaker 2: cryptic sheets, they're not able to decode at this point.

441
00:28:20,800 --> 00:28:24,000
Speaker 2: You know, sometime in October or November of two thousand

442
00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:26,760
Speaker 2: and one, remember that nine to one one has just

443
00:28:26,840 --> 00:28:31,040
Speaker 2: taken place, and the country is in shock, and in fact,

444
00:28:31,040 --> 00:28:35,280
Speaker 2: Stephen Carr is taken away from the investigation to go

445
00:28:35,320 --> 00:28:39,080
Speaker 2: and help with the investigation at the Pentagon, which was

446
00:28:39,480 --> 00:28:41,840
Speaker 2: the site of some of the attacks that took place

447
00:28:41,920 --> 00:28:42,400
Speaker 2: that day.

448
00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:45,560
Speaker 1: And a big development is that the government makes a

449
00:28:45,640 --> 00:28:49,040
Speaker 1: deal with Brian Reagan, right and agents meet with him

450
00:28:49,320 --> 00:28:52,600
Speaker 1: and he says something that's really really alarming.

451
00:28:53,080 --> 00:28:58,040
Speaker 2: Brian Reagan sends the message that I've buried things out

452
00:28:58,080 --> 00:29:03,080
Speaker 2: there that could start a war. And so this message

453
00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:06,680
Speaker 2: really alarms Stephen Carr and his colleagues because now they

454
00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:13,840
Speaker 2: know they must decode those sheets, because they're hunches that

455
00:29:13,920 --> 00:29:18,480
Speaker 2: the information contained in those sheets will point them to

456
00:29:18,640 --> 00:29:23,280
Speaker 2: wherever Brian Reagan has hidden the materials that he has stolen.

457
00:29:23,840 --> 00:29:27,440
Speaker 2: So now the investigation goes from being a spy hunt,

458
00:29:27,680 --> 00:29:31,320
Speaker 2: which of course ended with Brian Reagan's arrest, to becoming

459
00:29:31,360 --> 00:29:34,560
Speaker 2: a treasure hunt because now they have to find all

460
00:29:34,560 --> 00:29:36,080
Speaker 2: the materials that he has stolen.

461
00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:38,960
Speaker 1: So he's admitted it at this point, Yeah.

462
00:29:38,760 --> 00:29:41,880
Speaker 2: He's admitted it. At this point, they actually have a breakthrough.

463
00:29:42,560 --> 00:29:46,360
Speaker 2: He offered to help the government only if they would

464
00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:50,520
Speaker 2: agree to giving him a eight year or a ten

465
00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:53,840
Speaker 2: year prison sentence. So he was in fact trying to

466
00:29:53,840 --> 00:29:57,320
Speaker 2: blackmail the government by telling them that he had secrets

467
00:29:57,840 --> 00:30:01,680
Speaker 2: that could damage the United States. And it was partly

468
00:30:01,720 --> 00:30:05,440
Speaker 2: in reaction to that stance that Brian Reagan had taken

469
00:30:05,840 --> 00:30:08,920
Speaker 2: that the US government decided to seek the death penalty

470
00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:12,400
Speaker 2: for him. Recall that the case started with these coded

471
00:30:12,480 --> 00:30:16,200
Speaker 2: letters that the FBI got from the Libyans, but there

472
00:30:16,280 --> 00:30:20,320
Speaker 2: was no way to link these letters to Brian Reagan,

473
00:30:20,840 --> 00:30:25,640
Speaker 2: or to even bring in the Libyan source onto the

474
00:30:25,680 --> 00:30:29,800
Speaker 2: witness stand and have him say that the Libyans had

475
00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:34,040
Speaker 2: in fact received this letter, because that would mean compromising

476
00:30:34,600 --> 00:30:38,960
Speaker 2: the confidentiality of the source who had passed along that material,

477
00:30:39,440 --> 00:30:43,320
Speaker 2: and so the FBI needed to find evidence that would

478
00:30:43,320 --> 00:30:48,360
Speaker 2: directly link Brian Reagan to these letters, and they finally

479
00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:52,959
Speaker 2: found on the hard drive of one of Brian Reagan's laptops,

480
00:30:53,000 --> 00:30:57,080
Speaker 2: they found the exact same letter, and that's how they

481
00:30:57,160 --> 00:31:00,920
Speaker 2: now knew that they had the evidence needed to link

482
00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:04,640
Speaker 2: him to this plot. Once they had this, the US

483
00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:08,920
Speaker 2: government decided that it was going to ask for the

484
00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:13,840
Speaker 2: death penalty for Brian Reagan. And that was something unusual

485
00:31:13,880 --> 00:31:18,000
Speaker 2: and unprecedented because the United States has not asked for

486
00:31:18,080 --> 00:31:23,320
Speaker 2: capital punishment for anybody accused of espionage since the Rosenberg

487
00:31:23,480 --> 00:31:25,800
Speaker 2: trial back in nineteen fifty four.

488
00:31:26,160 --> 00:31:26,480
Speaker 3: Wow.

489
00:31:26,520 --> 00:31:32,560
Speaker 2: The Rosenbergs were accused of transmitting nuclear secrets to the

490
00:31:32,600 --> 00:31:36,640
Speaker 2: Soviet Union, and they were given the death penalty for

491
00:31:36,760 --> 00:31:39,800
Speaker 2: having committed that crime. But that was back in nineteen

492
00:31:39,840 --> 00:31:43,680
Speaker 2: fifty four, and since then, nobody accused of espionage have

493
00:31:43,880 --> 00:31:47,959
Speaker 2: been given the death penalty. But now the government was

494
00:31:48,040 --> 00:31:50,760
Speaker 2: asking for the death penalty for Brian Reagan.

495
00:31:51,040 --> 00:31:55,360
Speaker 1: But had anybody been caught with this level and depth

496
00:31:55,720 --> 00:31:59,280
Speaker 1: of information since the Rosenbergs, Yes.

497
00:31:59,080 --> 00:32:01,680
Speaker 2: And no in this sense that there have been spies

498
00:32:01,760 --> 00:32:05,040
Speaker 2: like Robert Hanson who would passed on tons of very

499
00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:07,480
Speaker 2: very sensitive information to the Russians.

500
00:32:07,840 --> 00:32:10,760
Speaker 1: So I keep thinking of plea deals in criminal cases,

501
00:32:10,800 --> 00:32:14,480
Speaker 1: where you have a capital case and you tell the

502
00:32:14,520 --> 00:32:18,280
Speaker 1: person who has just been convicted, we won't kill you

503
00:32:18,640 --> 00:32:21,400
Speaker 1: if you tell us where the body is. Is this

504
00:32:21,520 --> 00:32:22,360
Speaker 1: not the same thing?

505
00:32:23,040 --> 00:32:26,560
Speaker 2: Well, there were two schools of thought within the Department

506
00:32:26,600 --> 00:32:31,520
Speaker 2: of Justice and within the National security establishment on Brian Reagan.

507
00:32:31,640 --> 00:32:35,440
Speaker 2: There were many, including many at the National Reconnaissance Office,

508
00:32:35,600 --> 00:32:39,640
Speaker 2: who wanted to agree to whatever Brian Reagan was asking

509
00:32:39,720 --> 00:32:43,840
Speaker 2: for and basically to capitulate to his demand and let

510
00:32:43,960 --> 00:32:48,440
Speaker 2: him get a minimum sentence in exchange for telling them

511
00:32:48,440 --> 00:32:51,920
Speaker 2: what he had done. But the Department of Justice, which

512
00:32:52,000 --> 00:32:55,440
Speaker 2: prevailed in this case, they decided that this would open

513
00:32:55,520 --> 00:32:59,360
Speaker 2: the door to similar blackmailing in the future by traders

514
00:32:59,360 --> 00:33:01,360
Speaker 2: in the future, and I think it was this longer

515
00:33:01,440 --> 00:33:05,000
Speaker 2: term view which led them to amp up the pressure

516
00:33:05,040 --> 00:33:07,640
Speaker 2: on Reagan by asking for the death penalty.

517
00:33:08,080 --> 00:33:11,040
Speaker 1: I'm assuming he panicked or something like it. When he

518
00:33:11,080 --> 00:33:11,800
Speaker 1: got this news.

519
00:33:12,200 --> 00:33:15,440
Speaker 2: He was still very defiant. He thought that he would

520
00:33:15,480 --> 00:33:18,320
Speaker 2: still get away with it. He thought that he might

521
00:33:18,440 --> 00:33:23,280
Speaker 2: prevail at trial because he was confident that the government

522
00:33:23,560 --> 00:33:26,960
Speaker 2: did not have enough evidence to link him to materials

523
00:33:27,000 --> 00:33:29,920
Speaker 2: that he had stolen, because the government at this point

524
00:33:29,960 --> 00:33:33,680
Speaker 2: still didn't know where he might have kept those things.

525
00:33:34,040 --> 00:33:37,960
Speaker 2: And so perhaps he thought, look, even if they're able

526
00:33:38,000 --> 00:33:40,120
Speaker 2: to prove that I was searching for these things, they

527
00:33:40,160 --> 00:33:43,200
Speaker 2: can't prove that I took them. So the case did

528
00:33:43,320 --> 00:33:46,560
Speaker 2: go to trial. The trial didn't go as he had hoped,

529
00:33:47,000 --> 00:33:51,320
Speaker 2: and Brian Reagan was convicted on charges of attempted espionage.

530
00:33:51,760 --> 00:33:55,440
Speaker 2: And an interesting thing had transpired in the meantime. He

531
00:33:55,520 --> 00:33:59,720
Speaker 2: had sent his wife a letter from prison asking her

532
00:33:59,800 --> 00:34:04,000
Speaker 2: to go out into the woods and bury little toys

533
00:34:04,040 --> 00:34:08,600
Speaker 2: in order to cover up his own acts of having

534
00:34:08,719 --> 00:34:11,440
Speaker 2: hidden some of these classified secrets.

535
00:34:11,640 --> 00:34:15,399
Speaker 1: What I don't understand it he doesn't think people read

536
00:34:15,440 --> 00:34:16,279
Speaker 1: his correspondence.

537
00:34:17,000 --> 00:34:19,560
Speaker 2: Well, it was in fact a coded letter that he

538
00:34:19,600 --> 00:34:23,160
Speaker 2: had sent to her. It was a coded letter, and

539
00:34:23,280 --> 00:34:27,600
Speaker 2: he had somehow managed to evade the authorities. Wow, But

540
00:34:27,680 --> 00:34:31,440
Speaker 2: they did find out. And his wife didn't really know

541
00:34:31,960 --> 00:34:34,400
Speaker 2: what he had been up to, and she thought that

542
00:34:34,560 --> 00:34:37,799
Speaker 2: maybe she was just helping him, and so she went

543
00:34:37,880 --> 00:34:41,200
Speaker 2: out and she did as she had been instructed by him.

544
00:34:41,360 --> 00:34:44,000
Speaker 2: But later on, when the FBI found out that he

545
00:34:44,040 --> 00:34:46,680
Speaker 2: had communicated with his wife and that she had followed

546
00:34:46,719 --> 00:34:50,399
Speaker 2: his instructions, they went and questioned her, and she led

547
00:34:50,440 --> 00:34:52,959
Speaker 2: them to all of these places where she had gone

548
00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:57,360
Speaker 2: and buried little toys. And so now she was liable

549
00:34:57,440 --> 00:35:02,840
Speaker 2: to be prosecuted for having act as an accomplice to him. Wow.

550
00:35:03,040 --> 00:35:06,680
Speaker 2: So when he got convicted and he got sentenced, this

551
00:35:06,880 --> 00:35:10,360
Speaker 2: was around March of two thousand and three, Brian Reagan

552
00:35:10,880 --> 00:35:15,120
Speaker 2: knew that his wife could also now be prosecuted, and finally.

553
00:35:14,920 --> 00:35:15,640
Speaker 1: He got smart.

554
00:35:16,239 --> 00:35:20,200
Speaker 2: The prosecution and Brian Reagan, they came to an agreement

555
00:35:20,640 --> 00:35:25,720
Speaker 2: that in exchange for the government not prosecuting his wife

556
00:35:26,080 --> 00:35:31,400
Speaker 2: and allowing her to hold on to the spousal pension

557
00:35:32,560 --> 00:35:36,960
Speaker 2: from his military service, he would cooperate with them with

558
00:35:37,120 --> 00:35:41,200
Speaker 2: the government and tell them exactly what he had done

559
00:35:41,920 --> 00:35:45,240
Speaker 2: and help them recover the materials that he had stolen.

560
00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:47,799
Speaker 1: So it's the least selfish thing that he's done through

561
00:35:47,840 --> 00:35:48,959
Speaker 1: this whole story.

562
00:35:49,239 --> 00:35:52,400
Speaker 2: Yes, that is quite true. Now starts sort of the

563
00:35:52,440 --> 00:35:57,279
Speaker 2: final phase of this investigation, where Carr and his colleagues

564
00:35:57,960 --> 00:36:02,960
Speaker 2: have to retrieve everything that Brian Reagan has stolen and

565
00:36:03,040 --> 00:36:06,239
Speaker 2: at this point, he sits down with the investigators and

566
00:36:06,280 --> 00:36:09,080
Speaker 2: tells them that, yes, those sheets that you've found in

567
00:36:09,120 --> 00:36:13,840
Speaker 2: the Manila folder are code, and they are actually coded

568
00:36:14,200 --> 00:36:19,120
Speaker 2: coordinates of all the locations in a state park where

569
00:36:19,239 --> 00:36:25,360
Speaker 2: I've buried several packages of classified documents and DVDs and

570
00:36:25,520 --> 00:36:30,160
Speaker 2: other materials. But you don't have to decode these sheets

571
00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:35,720
Speaker 2: because if you go down I ninety five to this exit.

572
00:36:36,400 --> 00:36:40,640
Speaker 2: Right by the exit, if you dig in this particular location,

573
00:36:41,360 --> 00:36:44,520
Speaker 2: you will find a two brush holder in which I

574
00:36:44,640 --> 00:36:49,720
Speaker 2: have the actual coordinates, not encrypted, but the actual coordinates

575
00:36:49,719 --> 00:36:54,800
Speaker 2: of the places where I've buried documents in Virginia ninety

576
00:36:54,840 --> 00:36:55,720
Speaker 2: miles from here.

577
00:36:56,120 --> 00:37:00,960
Speaker 1: Does he fancy himself as some sort of sophisticated I

578
00:37:01,000 --> 00:37:03,759
Speaker 1: don't know, Double O seven spy, because some of this

579
00:37:03,880 --> 00:37:07,560
Speaker 1: seems for the dramatics. Maybe even in his own head.

580
00:37:08,120 --> 00:37:12,440
Speaker 2: He's certainly got some delusions of grandeur, and he thinks

581
00:37:12,480 --> 00:37:15,360
Speaker 2: of himself. You know, he's got a fantasy running in

582
00:37:15,400 --> 00:37:18,120
Speaker 2: his head in which he is like a double oh

583
00:37:18,200 --> 00:37:24,359
Speaker 2: seven character who's so smart and who's so skilled at espionage.

584
00:37:24,560 --> 00:37:26,960
Speaker 2: He thinks he can hoodwink the government. And so you're

585
00:37:27,080 --> 00:37:31,919
Speaker 2: right that some of this is delusional thinking. But regardless,

586
00:37:32,440 --> 00:37:35,719
Speaker 2: it turns out that he has indeed buried these materials

587
00:37:36,120 --> 00:37:40,319
Speaker 2: in Virginia, and the government is able to retrieve all

588
00:37:40,360 --> 00:37:44,200
Speaker 2: of those materials. But they've also found in the two

589
00:37:44,280 --> 00:37:50,360
Speaker 2: brusholder another sheet of encrypted coordinates. And these are actually

590
00:37:50,360 --> 00:37:56,080
Speaker 2: a coordinates of locations at the Patapsco State Park in Maryland,

591
00:37:56,600 --> 00:37:59,440
Speaker 2: not far from where I'm sitting right now in Silver Spring,

592
00:37:59,760 --> 00:38:05,640
Speaker 2: where he's buried seven more packages in seven locations. And

593
00:38:05,719 --> 00:38:08,760
Speaker 2: here's the tricky part, and here's the twist to the story.

594
00:38:09,080 --> 00:38:14,120
Speaker 2: Brian Reagan has forgotten the key to this particular code

595
00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:17,799
Speaker 2: and con't, for the life of him remember how to

596
00:38:17,880 --> 00:38:18,920
Speaker 2: crack his own code.

597
00:38:19,120 --> 00:38:22,040
Speaker 1: Oh gosh, what do you do with an inept spy?

598
00:38:22,280 --> 00:38:25,880
Speaker 1: How do you deal with that the spy can't remember

599
00:38:25,880 --> 00:38:26,719
Speaker 1: his own code?

600
00:38:27,040 --> 00:38:31,600
Speaker 2: Yes, And so this is where I think Daniel Olson,

601
00:38:31,840 --> 00:38:36,920
Speaker 2: who's really brilliant, starts to reverse engineer some of Brian

602
00:38:37,000 --> 00:38:41,720
Speaker 2: Reagan's thinking and is finally able to work with Brian

603
00:38:42,200 --> 00:38:46,520
Speaker 2: to decode that particular sheet. And the key to that

604
00:38:46,960 --> 00:38:52,000
Speaker 2: sheet happens to be Brian's high school yearbook from nineteen

605
00:38:52,080 --> 00:38:56,640
Speaker 2: seventy seven. What, Yes, there's a really interesting key that

606
00:38:56,680 --> 00:39:00,680
Speaker 2: he uses, He uses the pictures of all his fellow

607
00:39:00,719 --> 00:39:04,560
Speaker 2: students from the class of nineteen seventy seven from the

608
00:39:04,640 --> 00:39:08,200
Speaker 2: school in Farmingdale, Long Island where he grew up, and

609
00:39:08,719 --> 00:39:12,200
Speaker 2: working with Brian Daniel Olsen is finally able to figure

610
00:39:12,239 --> 00:39:15,360
Speaker 2: out what that code is and is able to figure

611
00:39:15,360 --> 00:39:18,520
Speaker 2: out that a series of numbers right at the end

612
00:39:19,400 --> 00:39:22,920
Speaker 2: of this code are the actual coordinates that you don't

613
00:39:22,920 --> 00:39:24,319
Speaker 2: even need to decode them.

614
00:39:24,640 --> 00:39:27,960
Speaker 1: Are they surprised by this material? Is it deeper than

615
00:39:28,000 --> 00:39:30,719
Speaker 1: the material they had recovered from the person at the

616
00:39:30,760 --> 00:39:33,040
Speaker 1: Libyan consulate or different in any way?

617
00:39:33,600 --> 00:39:36,520
Speaker 2: It's of the same kind, but it's just as sensitive,

618
00:39:36,560 --> 00:39:39,600
Speaker 2: it's just as important, it's just more of it. But

619
00:39:39,880 --> 00:39:42,640
Speaker 2: they aren't able to go and dig this up right

620
00:39:42,680 --> 00:39:47,239
Speaker 2: away because even though Brian has provided now that the locations,

621
00:39:47,880 --> 00:39:51,640
Speaker 2: just those locations are not enough, because he's used a

622
00:39:51,680 --> 00:39:57,440
Speaker 2: system of nails on trees at these locations to determine

623
00:39:57,480 --> 00:40:01,880
Speaker 2: exactly where he's go going to bury these things. So,

624
00:40:02,239 --> 00:40:05,840
Speaker 2: in other words, if you just have the coordinates for

625
00:40:05,960 --> 00:40:09,279
Speaker 2: these locations, which Steve Carr did, and you go out

626
00:40:09,360 --> 00:40:14,240
Speaker 2: looking for the materials, you won't find them. Because Brian

627
00:40:14,640 --> 00:40:18,080
Speaker 2: had also worked into his scheme and added layer of

628
00:40:18,160 --> 00:40:22,640
Speaker 2: protection where there was a certain distance from these coordinates

629
00:40:23,040 --> 00:40:25,160
Speaker 2: that the things were actually buried.

630
00:40:25,480 --> 00:40:26,359
Speaker 1: Did he remember that?

631
00:40:26,520 --> 00:40:29,839
Speaker 2: I hope also he remembered some of it, but not

632
00:40:30,000 --> 00:40:33,520
Speaker 2: all of it. Also, keep in mind that GPS and

633
00:40:33,560 --> 00:40:37,200
Speaker 2: these coordinates, they're not absolutely precise, you know, It's like

634
00:40:37,760 --> 00:40:41,800
Speaker 2: they're accurate within a radius of a few dozen meters

635
00:40:41,920 --> 00:40:45,360
Speaker 2: or maybe a dozen yards or so. So it proved

636
00:40:45,400 --> 00:40:49,200
Speaker 2: to be far more difficult to actually find these packages.

637
00:40:49,600 --> 00:40:52,840
Speaker 2: And so Stephen Carr had to get special permission to

638
00:40:53,000 --> 00:40:56,279
Speaker 2: get Brian Reagan out of jail, and he had to

639
00:40:56,320 --> 00:40:59,960
Speaker 2: bring him to Potapsco so that Brian Reagan could help

640
00:41:00,000 --> 00:41:05,680
Speaker 2: help identify the exact precise locations where these things were buried.

641
00:41:05,840 --> 00:41:08,719
Speaker 2: It took several weeks for them to recover everything.

642
00:41:09,400 --> 00:41:12,319
Speaker 1: What was the reaction of his wife and children to

643
00:41:12,360 --> 00:41:14,239
Speaker 1: all of this. I mean, you were saying she was

644
00:41:14,280 --> 00:41:16,560
Speaker 1: shocked and then even more shocked that she was being

645
00:41:16,640 --> 00:41:19,560
Speaker 1: charged as an accessory in a felony case.

646
00:41:20,280 --> 00:41:24,920
Speaker 2: The kids were too little, but the wife was extremely bitter.

647
00:41:25,200 --> 00:41:28,560
Speaker 2: He kept saying that he had done this for the family,

648
00:41:28,680 --> 00:41:31,600
Speaker 2: but of course that did not comfort her in the

649
00:41:31,719 --> 00:41:37,520
Speaker 2: least because Brian really ruined their lives by committing this

650
00:41:37,640 --> 00:41:40,280
Speaker 2: act of betrayal against his country.

651
00:41:40,960 --> 00:41:42,920
Speaker 1: Do you think this was really about money.

652
00:41:43,239 --> 00:41:47,600
Speaker 2: I do not believe that this was about money in entirety. Yes,

653
00:41:47,760 --> 00:41:51,480
Speaker 2: to some extent, it was about financial security, because Brian

654
00:41:51,560 --> 00:41:54,399
Speaker 2: Reagan was concerned that he wasn't going to make enough

655
00:41:54,480 --> 00:41:58,759
Speaker 2: money after his retirement. But I think even more than that,

656
00:41:59,360 --> 00:42:03,240
Speaker 2: this was about Brian Reagan's need for validation, his need

657
00:42:03,520 --> 00:42:08,239
Speaker 2: to prove to the world that he was a lot

658
00:42:08,320 --> 00:42:11,920
Speaker 2: smarter than people gave him credit for. And this is

659
00:42:12,080 --> 00:42:16,960
Speaker 2: partly because of how he had struggled, especially in childhood,

660
00:42:17,040 --> 00:42:20,760
Speaker 2: through high school, and even through part of his professional life,

661
00:42:20,920 --> 00:42:26,600
Speaker 2: to counter this image of being a sort of somewhat

662
00:42:26,640 --> 00:42:31,080
Speaker 2: dim witted and not very smart and socially awkward fellow.

663
00:42:31,239 --> 00:42:35,640
Speaker 2: He always thought that people weren't taking him seriously, that

664
00:42:35,760 --> 00:42:40,520
Speaker 2: people were not respecting him enough, and this was most

665
00:42:40,719 --> 00:42:45,600
Speaker 2: likely tied to his dyslexia, because from childhood, because he

666
00:42:45,640 --> 00:42:49,760
Speaker 2: had dyslexia, I think he got made fun of in school.

667
00:42:50,080 --> 00:42:53,960
Speaker 2: I think his teachers weren't that sympathetic towards him. Keep

668
00:42:53,960 --> 00:42:58,200
Speaker 2: in mind that this was the nineteen seventies when teachers

669
00:42:58,280 --> 00:43:01,640
Speaker 2: knew even less about learning disability than they do today,

670
00:43:02,040 --> 00:43:05,160
Speaker 2: and I think all of those challenges that he faced

671
00:43:05,160 --> 00:43:09,680
Speaker 2: in life shaped his psychology and twisted his psychology in

672
00:43:09,719 --> 00:43:13,520
Speaker 2: a way that led him to make these poor choices.

673
00:43:13,840 --> 00:43:17,160
Speaker 2: The death penalty came off the table and he was

674
00:43:17,239 --> 00:43:21,200
Speaker 2: sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole,

675
00:43:21,480 --> 00:43:23,080
Speaker 2: and so that's where he is now.

676
00:43:23,280 --> 00:43:24,720
Speaker 1: I want to know if he showed remorse.

677
00:43:25,040 --> 00:43:28,040
Speaker 2: He did show remorse. I think he showed remorse most

678
00:43:28,040 --> 00:43:31,560
Speaker 2: of all because of what his family had to go

679
00:43:31,680 --> 00:43:33,200
Speaker 2: through because of him.

680
00:43:33,560 --> 00:43:35,960
Speaker 1: What are the lessons learned here do you think with

681
00:43:36,040 --> 00:43:36,560
Speaker 1: this story?

682
00:43:37,200 --> 00:43:40,719
Speaker 2: I think there's multiple lessons. I think the most emotional

683
00:43:40,840 --> 00:43:45,319
Speaker 2: lesson is that people with learning disabilities need to be

684
00:43:45,400 --> 00:43:49,000
Speaker 2: treated much better than they are in the world, because

685
00:43:49,360 --> 00:43:54,600
Speaker 2: if Brian Reagan had had kinder mentors and supervisors and

686
00:43:54,680 --> 00:43:57,960
Speaker 2: colleagues and classmates, I don't think that he would have

687
00:43:58,000 --> 00:44:03,080
Speaker 2: grown up with the kind of psychology that ultimately influenced

688
00:44:03,239 --> 00:44:05,759
Speaker 2: him to do the things that he did. I also

689
00:44:05,960 --> 00:44:09,520
Speaker 2: think that there was a big lesson learned here for

690
00:44:09,680 --> 00:44:15,000
Speaker 2: the intelligence community in terms of protecting digital information, classified

691
00:44:15,040 --> 00:44:19,400
Speaker 2: information that exists in digital form, because what Brian Reagan

692
00:44:19,480 --> 00:44:23,279
Speaker 2: did was a precursor to the loss of information that

693
00:44:23,400 --> 00:44:27,600
Speaker 2: resulted from Edward Snowden's actions several years later. You know,

694
00:44:27,640 --> 00:44:31,319
Speaker 2: we can debate about Snowden's motivations for doing what he did,

695
00:44:31,640 --> 00:44:35,799
Speaker 2: but both Edward Snowden and Chelsea Manning were able to

696
00:44:35,880 --> 00:44:40,360
Speaker 2: exploit the same vulnerabilities that Brian Reagan had taken advantage of.

697
00:44:40,680 --> 00:44:43,160
Speaker 2: So I think there's a great lesson to be learned

698
00:44:43,200 --> 00:44:46,880
Speaker 2: about the insider threat within the intelligence community.

699
00:44:46,880 --> 00:44:49,560
Speaker 1: Because there are other Brian Reagan's out there.

700
00:44:49,760 --> 00:44:53,200
Speaker 2: There have to be just statistically, because there are tons

701
00:44:53,280 --> 00:44:57,400
Speaker 2: of thousands of people with security clearances who have access

702
00:44:57,440 --> 00:45:00,759
Speaker 2: to all kinds of secrets, and because they all have

703
00:45:00,880 --> 00:45:04,000
Speaker 2: personal lives, they all have needs, and they all have

704
00:45:04,360 --> 00:45:08,160
Speaker 2: dynamic lives. They may be very patriotic today, but things

705
00:45:08,280 --> 00:45:11,600
Speaker 2: might happen to them tomorrow that might make them vulnerable.

706
00:45:16,480 --> 00:45:20,200
Speaker 1: On the next episode of Wicked Words, Lisa Rodman on

707
00:45:20,239 --> 00:45:25,359
Speaker 1: her childhood babysitter the serial killer. It sounds like the

708
00:45:25,400 --> 00:45:28,759
Speaker 1: story of your relationship with your mother, especially in that

709
00:45:28,840 --> 00:45:32,680
Speaker 1: time period, was more traumatizing or more painful for you

710
00:45:32,760 --> 00:45:35,000
Speaker 1: to tell than the story of being babysat by a

711
00:45:35,000 --> 00:45:35,680
Speaker 1: serial killer.

712
00:45:35,880 --> 00:45:38,680
Speaker 3: That's one of the many ironies of this book. It's

713
00:45:38,680 --> 00:45:52,720
Speaker 3: about surviving her, not him.

714
00:45:53,080 --> 00:45:55,960
Speaker 1: My new book, All That Is Wicked is available now,

715
00:45:56,080 --> 00:45:58,960
Speaker 1: including the audiobook. All that Is Wicked is based on

716
00:45:59,000 --> 00:46:01,799
Speaker 1: our first season tenfold More Wicked. You might think you

717
00:46:01,880 --> 00:46:04,799
Speaker 1: know the whole story of killer Edward Ruloff's crimes, but

718
00:46:04,880 --> 00:46:08,360
Speaker 1: there's so much more. My book American Sherlock is also available.

719
00:46:08,960 --> 00:46:11,920
Speaker 1: This has been an exactly right tenfold war Media production.

720
00:46:12,160 --> 00:46:16,200
Speaker 1: The producer is Alexis Emirosi. Our mixer is Ryo Baum.

721
00:46:16,480 --> 00:46:19,600
Speaker 1: Curtis Heath is Our composer, Nick Toga did the artwork.

722
00:46:19,719 --> 00:46:24,400
Speaker 1: Ilsa Brink designed the website. The executive producers are Georgia Hartstark,

723
00:46:24,760 --> 00:46:29,040
Speaker 1: Karen Kilgarriff and Danielle Kramer. Follow Wicked Words on Instagram

724
00:46:29,120 --> 00:46:32,279
Speaker 1: and Facebook at tenfold more Wicked and on Twitter at

725
00:46:32,320 --> 00:46:35,480
Speaker 1: tenfold More and If you know of a historical crime

726
00:46:35,560 --> 00:46:38,759
Speaker 1: that could use some attention, especially if it happened in

727
00:46:38,760 --> 00:46:43,480
Speaker 1: your family, email us at info at Tenfoldwarwicked dot com.

728
00:46:43,840 --> 00:46:47,120
Speaker 1: We'll also take your suggestions for true crime authors for

729
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Speaker 1: Wicked Words