Speaker 1: Pushkin. Hey, Happiness Lab listeners, today you're in for a
Speaker 1: treat because my friend, best selling author and happiness expert,
Speaker 1: Gretchen Rubin just had me join her for a special
Speaker 1: episode of her podcast, Happier with Gretchen Rubin. In this episode,
Speaker 1: Gretchen and I took part in her first ever friendship roundtable,
Speaker 1: and we were joined by the amazing Rushma Sajani, founder
Speaker 1: of Girls Who Code and host of the My so
Speaker 1: called midlife podcast. Gretchen Rushman and I talked about our friendships,
Speaker 1: how they've changed over time, how we try to handle conflict,
Speaker 1: and how we've made friends in adulthood. I enjoyed our
Speaker 1: conversation a lot, and I bet you will too.
Speaker 2: Because friendship is such a huge element to a happier life.
Speaker 2: It is a great subject for a roundtable discussion to
Speaker 2: go deeper, and three of us are here today to
Speaker 2: talk about friendship. I'm Gretchen Rubin, a writer who studies happiness,
Speaker 2: human nature, and friendship, and I am the host of
Speaker 2: the Happier with Gretchen Ruben podcast. And also here today
Speaker 2: is Lorie Santos. Lauri is a professor at Yale University,
Speaker 2: where she has taught the most popular course in Yale History,
Speaker 2: Psychology and the Good Life, and she's also host of
Speaker 2: the Happiness Lab podcast, a terrific podcast that helps listeners
Speaker 2: improve their well being with the science of happiness.
Speaker 1: Hello, Laurie, Hey, Gretchen, Thanks so much for having me
Speaker 1: on the show. This roundtable is fun, and we'll build
Speaker 1: our own friendship.
Speaker 2: We'll build our friendship. There we go, and we are
Speaker 2: also here with Reshma Sojohnny Reshman is the founder of
Speaker 2: successful nonprofits Girls Who Code and Moms First, and the
Speaker 2: best selling author of books including Pay Up, Brave, Not Perfect,
Speaker 2: and the Girls Who Code book series. She is host
Speaker 2: of the terrific podcast My So Called Midlife, where she
Speaker 2: tackles the question She's gotten everything she's ever wanted, so
Speaker 2: why does she feel so unsatisfied? Hello, Rashna, Hi Kretschen.
Speaker 3: So great to be here.
Speaker 2: This is going to be such a fun conversation. Okay, So, friendship.
Speaker 2: Ancient philosophers and contemporary scientists agree that relationships are a
Speaker 2: key element to a happy life, and friendship is certainly
Speaker 2: an extraordinarily important form of relationship. Lately, I have been
Speaker 2: going through the empty nest phase of life, which I'm
Speaker 2: rebranding is the open door phase of life. And one
Speaker 2: thing that I noticed is how sometimes in this stage
Speaker 2: people realize that they've been confusing friends with acquaintances, like
Speaker 2: they thought they had friends, but they really just have
Speaker 2: friendly acquaintances. And as I started talking more and more
Speaker 2: about friendship, I could see that people were really fired
Speaker 2: up about this subject. People really understand how important it is.
Speaker 2: And we're recording this in women's history months. And while
Speaker 2: friendships are certainly not exclusive to women, there is some
Speaker 2: kind of special about women's friendships. And so I'm so
Speaker 2: excited to talk to you both about friendship.
Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, this is gonna be awesome.
Speaker 2: Excellent, So let's talk about friendship in your own life.
Speaker 2: Have there been any special steps that you have taken
Speaker 2: in your own life to either strengthen existing friendships or
Speaker 2: to create new friendships? I mean, because what does it
Speaker 2: make new friends but keep the old one is silver,
Speaker 2: the others gold? What have you done in your own
Speaker 2: life towards this aim, Laurie, I'll let me ask you first.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, one of the reasons I was so excited
Speaker 1: to have this conversation is I feel like this is
Speaker 1: something I've been thinking about a lot, right. You know,
Speaker 1: I went through this period of feeling super burned out,
Speaker 1: and one of the things I recognized during that period
Speaker 1: was that like I hadn't been investing enough time in
Speaker 1: my friendships. I too felt like I had a lot
Speaker 1: of these like so called relational friendships where it's like,
Speaker 1: you know, maybe I would see somebody at work, or
Speaker 1: we were just kind of friends because we happened, you know,
Speaker 1: my husband happened to know his partner or something like that.
Speaker 1: And like it was I was finding that I just
Speaker 1: like didn't have the close connections that I thought. And so,
Speaker 1: you know, like a do full like happiness scientists that
Speaker 1: I am. I was like, I'm gonna go about making friends.
Speaker 2: I'm putting it in the lab, putting it in.
Speaker 1: The lab, right, Like, but it's hard. It's hard in midlife,
Speaker 1: I think for lots of reasons.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 1: One is that we're all so busy. Right, It wasn't
Speaker 1: the ease with which I made friendships with people, say
Speaker 1: like in college or something like that, where you're naturally
Speaker 1: running into each other. You meet someone at your yoga class,
Speaker 1: or I have this sort of movie night that I
Speaker 1: go to. You meet friends there and it's like you
Speaker 1: actually have to put something in the calendar and that
Speaker 1: can be prohibitively taxing. But having put some effort into this,
Speaker 1: I can say that it is possible in midlife to
Speaker 1: make new friends. But it does feel like it takes
Speaker 1: some energy in some work.
Speaker 2: And was there anything specific you tried.
Speaker 1: I think it's like putting yourself out there and offering,
Speaker 1: like you have to be the one that says like, hey,
Speaker 1: maybe we should go on a coffee date, or maybe
Speaker 1: we should go shopping together, maybe we should go see
Speaker 1: this movie together. What I did find though, is that
Speaker 1: if you can kind of get through the hurdle of
Speaker 1: like figuring out everybody's collective schedules, people are usually really
Speaker 1: into it. Like my experience has been like when you
Speaker 1: kind of push people to like take the friendship a
Speaker 1: next step, most people are kind of into that. It's
Speaker 1: just like we're all so busy it can be hard
Speaker 1: to get things on the calendar.
Speaker 2: Well, and I know that there's research showing that, like
Speaker 2: people really do value relationships. And even though you can
Speaker 2: feel sort of awkward or self conscious by making that
Speaker 2: gesture to go deeper with a friendship, usually people are
Speaker 2: very welcome of it, Like, if you want to be friends,
Speaker 2: probably they want to be friends. And that's kind of
Speaker 2: comforting to remember totally.
Speaker 1: And I think this is a whole set of biases
Speaker 1: that I think if we're talking about friendship we need
Speaker 1: to acknowledge, which is that our minds kind of suck
Speaker 1: when it comes to thinking about friendships, Like we just
Speaker 1: have these biases that lead us towards anti friendship or undersociality,
Speaker 1: as the researcher Nick Epley calls it. One of my
Speaker 1: favorite ones is this effect called the liking gap, which
Speaker 1: is just like you assume that everybody in your life,
Speaker 1: from your best best you know, writer Diabesty to like
Speaker 1: the person that you chat with occasionally at the coffee shop.
Speaker 1: You assume that that person likes you less than that
Speaker 1: person actually likes you. Uh huh. The liking gap is
Speaker 1: like such a sad series of studies because they find it,
Speaker 1: like even like college roommates, Like your college roommate that
Speaker 1: you've lived with for a year. If you ask how
Speaker 1: much does your college roomate like you, A person will say, well,
Speaker 1: they like me, you like only so, so where's the
Speaker 1: college roomate's Like, Oh.
Speaker 3: My gosh, I love them. That's so interesting.
Speaker 1: It's like systematically pushing us. Yeah, systematically pushing us towards
Speaker 1: less friendship, which is which is terrible. Our mind shouldn't
Speaker 1: work that way.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's reassuring to remember that though. That's totally total. Man,
Speaker 2: how about you, Rushma, what have you done to strengthen
Speaker 2: our build relationships?
Speaker 3: God, I mean, as Laurie is talking, I have so
Speaker 3: many thoughts. I mean, well, first of all, I always
Speaker 3: had a tight crew of friends, and so I've been
Speaker 3: someone who you know, spends my life being extrovert, as
Speaker 3: both of you understand, and so like, I like keeping
Speaker 3: it tight and small, and I like being able to
Speaker 3: just you know, when I have dinner with a friend
Speaker 3: or we go on a girls' trips, like we're just
Speaker 3: talking about gossip, about celebrity gossip or about nothing. Like
Speaker 3: it's just not serious. We're not talking about jobs, we're
Speaker 3: not talking about like what we want to change that.
Speaker 3: I've spent my whole life doing that. So I'm a
Speaker 3: really good friend. Like I pride myself.
Speaker 2: On it, right, Oh, identity.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Like I feel like ironically, even though I might
Speaker 3: be the busiest, I'm out of all my friends, like
Speaker 3: I'm the three am phone call, right, I'm the friend
Speaker 3: when you're going through substance abuse that is there, right, Like,
Speaker 3: I'm that friend. And so I think in order for
Speaker 3: me to be a good friend, I always kept my
Speaker 3: friendship circle really small, but my acquaintance pool very large. Right.
Speaker 3: So I have a drink with you, right, you know
Speaker 3: what I mean, We'll catch up, but I'm not going
Speaker 3: to tell you all my secrets, right or like we're
Speaker 3: not you know, we're not going to get there because
Speaker 3: I just don't think then I have the can can
Speaker 3: give that way. So I think one that's always been
Speaker 3: really important to me. So one of the reasons why
Speaker 3: I wanted to really start looking at midlife is in
Speaker 3: midlife things change, and even people you've been friends with
Speaker 3: for twenty years change and there's breakups and if you're
Speaker 3: somebody that like has kept your crew tight, that's really hard.
Speaker 3: I think the second thing is is that living in
Speaker 3: New York, everybody leaves so all of a sudden, right.
Speaker 3: I feel like I found myself when my kids were
Speaker 3: really young, Like, oh my god, I got too many
Speaker 3: people I got to have dinner with, or see a
Speaker 3: Broadway show with, or do this thing with to all
Speaker 3: of a sudden like looking at my ten year old
Speaker 3: being like, what are you doing tonight? You want to
Speaker 3: watch a movie? Right? Like everything shit because nobody was
Speaker 3: there left and I had not learned, and I still
Speaker 3: don't know. I still don't I still don't know how
Speaker 3: to make new friends. I really struggle. I can make
Speaker 3: a lot of acquaintances, but I really struggle with new friends.
Speaker 3: And if I was honest too, I just also like
Speaker 3: had a little bit of judgment around it. And I
Speaker 3: remember I was reading my mentor Hillary Clinton's book, and
Speaker 3: she wrote in there like that she makes a new
Speaker 3: friend every year, and I was like, really, like if
Speaker 3: Hillary can make a new friend every year, then I
Speaker 3: should be able to make a new friend, you know
Speaker 3: what I mean? Every year. So that was a big
Speaker 3: eye opener for me.
Speaker 2: Let me ask you a quick question. When you say
Speaker 2: you keep it tight, Like what is that number? I'm
Speaker 2: just curious, like is that three? Is that ten?
Speaker 3: Like under it's under I would say it's under under seven,
Speaker 3: under eight.
Speaker 1: All of Rushman's friends listening right now are like, they're like,
Speaker 1: am I one of the seventh.
Speaker 2: I think that there are many different types of friendship
Speaker 2: maybe more than people say, Like I think sometimes it's
Speaker 2: like are you friends or are you not friends? Or
Speaker 2: it's interesting, Rushman, you were saying you'd have your tight
Speaker 2: close friends and then you have your acquaintances. And to
Speaker 2: me it seems like maybe it's good to think about
Speaker 2: different categories, all of whom maybe add to our life
Speaker 2: in a different way. And also, like you say, have
Speaker 2: different levels of responsibility and like intimacy that we bring
Speaker 2: to it and that we expect from it. But they
Speaker 2: can all add to our lives. But before we get
Speaker 2: into sort of our own colloquial sense of all these
Speaker 2: different kinds of friends, Laurie, what is the research showing
Speaker 2: about types of friendship as we're thinking this through?
Speaker 1: Yeah, what's the science say? I mean, I guess a
Speaker 1: couple of things. I mean, one is, what the science
Speaker 1: really clearly shows is that like any kind of social
Speaker 1: connections go right. I mean, just like, yeah, these at
Speaker 1: the coffee shop, chat with the person on the train,
Speaker 1: all of that's good, right, And so I think overall,
Speaker 1: what the research is trying to do is to categorize
Speaker 1: those forms of social connection, and so often researchers break
Speaker 1: up different kinds of ways that we could connect to
Speaker 1: other people in terms of three different categories. They call
Speaker 1: them intimate kind of friendships, relational friends, and sort of
Speaker 1: communal friends. And so the intimate one it doesn't mean
Speaker 1: like intimate in a like romantic intimate sets. It means
Speaker 1: kind of I think what Russima is getting at your
Speaker 1: crew like share everything exactly right. The relational friends are
Speaker 1: the ones that you like do stuff with, you know,
Speaker 1: so you might like grab a glass of wine, you
Speaker 1: might go see a movie, and it's like a one
Speaker 1: on one thing. But they're not the three am call
Speaker 1: in the same way, Gretchen, I think this is what
Speaker 1: you're getting at when you were saying that, like when
Speaker 1: your kids move away, you realize a lot of people
Speaker 1: are in that relational category, but maybe not the intimate category. Right.
Speaker 1: But there's another I mean that I think we often forget,
Speaker 1: which is a sort of communal or kind of community friends.
Speaker 1: And these is like your book club, like the crew
Speaker 1: of people you go to pilates with, or your church group. Right,
Speaker 1: Like this is like a parents in your appearents in
Speaker 1: like your kid's class, like the soccer moms that you
Speaker 1: see like you know on the field, right, and those
Speaker 1: are sometimes the people that we can see most often,
Speaker 1: depending on what those like community events are, they might
Speaker 1: be our most frequent other friends. And they're really good
Speaker 1: for kind of having these shared values and these shared activities.
Speaker 1: But again they're a little bit different than the other ones.
Speaker 1: You might not with the soccer mom unless you take
Speaker 1: it to a new level. It's definitely not gonna be
Speaker 1: a three am call, but it might not even be
Speaker 1: the go to the movie together.
Speaker 2: But it could be the first step toward an intimate friends.
Speaker 2: It could be a starter. It might have the capacity
Speaker 2: or the possibility of going further. Even if it's not.
Speaker 2: Then if you want to build a friend, like Rushma
Speaker 2: is saying it's hard to make new friends, maybe that's
Speaker 2: a place to find new.
Speaker 1: Friends, totally right, because you have to have some sort
Speaker 1: of connection with people to like move them from the categories.
Speaker 1: And I think it just takes some work. Right, You
Speaker 1: have to be on the soccer field with the mom
Speaker 1: and be like, hey, do you want to get a
Speaker 1: coffee later outside the soccer field, or do you want
Speaker 1: to like go get a movie or share something together?
Speaker 1: And again that feels vulnerable, like it feels scary to
Speaker 1: almost ask like because the person I like no, or
Speaker 1: I don't have time, and you'll just feel like I
Speaker 1: got rejected.
Speaker 3: Laurie, where does your work friends go? Because that's the
Speaker 3: other thing I've found, Like, I'm a workaholic, so I
Speaker 3: find that my work friends are now like my best friend.
Speaker 3: My always teases me, is like, it doesn't count if
Speaker 3: you pay them.
Speaker 1: Yeah, oh yeah, it's tricky. No, I think. I think
Speaker 1: I think work friends can be in any of these categories. Right.
Speaker 1: You know, to take the work friend that like you
Speaker 1: all go to the softball game together, right, that might
Speaker 1: feel very communal. Right, if it's a work friend that
Speaker 1: you occasionally go out to get a drink for, but
Speaker 1: they don't really know any of your real intimate life
Speaker 1: or your big secrets, right, that would probably be more relational.
Speaker 1: But there are definitely work friends that are the rider
Speaker 1: die besties that hear you know all this stuff. I
Speaker 1: definitely have had work friends that are my three am call, right.
Speaker 2: And so I'm not sure that I think that those
Speaker 2: three categories are very very helpful because it almost makes
Speaker 2: them feel like they're in a hierarchy. But I feel
Speaker 2: like it's almost more helpful to think about them as
Speaker 2: types of friends or the role they play like a
Speaker 2: childhood friend. Yeah, they know us in a way, they
Speaker 2: know our parents, they know our childhood dog, you know,
Speaker 2: even if now we're very poor part of than them
Speaker 2: in life. There's something about the childhood friends, Laurie, you
Speaker 2: mentioned the couple's friends, where you know you can go
Speaker 2: out on a double date. There's sort of a special
Speaker 2: kind of thing if you travel with people, and that's
Speaker 2: maybe not even that they're so intimate, but you would
Speaker 2: travel in the same way people that you know online.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, does that count, like if you haven't met
Speaker 2: people in real life, or like people that you've only
Speaker 2: seen on zoom you guys, I mean what about parasocial relationships?
Speaker 2: I mean, I bet you will have people who consider
Speaker 2: you their paro social friends. Plus I do, and then
Speaker 2: I also have my own parasocial friends and people who
Speaker 2: I listen to. So I don't know. I mean, what
Speaker 2: other kinds of friends am I missing?
Speaker 3: No?
Speaker 1: I mean, I think I think you're totally right that
Speaker 1: it's super complicated. Although push back on the idea that
Speaker 1: those three categories I gave are hierarchical, I think we
Speaker 1: kind of need all of them.
Speaker 2: Right, that's true.
Speaker 1: I definitely have been in situations and even during my
Speaker 1: burnout situation, I would describe being in this where I
Speaker 1: still had my intimate friends. I had my besties that
Speaker 1: I would call at night, but I had nobody to
Speaker 1: go to yoga class with and nobody to go for
Speaker 1: a walk with.
Speaker 2: It has to go with near friends and far friends.
Speaker 2: And this is what you're talking about, is what about
Speaker 2: when somebody who was a near friend then becomes a
Speaker 2: far friend. Well, then that completely changes the energy of
Speaker 2: the relationship.
Speaker 3: Well, this is why I like your category story because
Speaker 3: it made me feel almost like better, right, Like, I
Speaker 3: think one of the things that I've had to contend
Speaker 3: with in midlife is that it's okay a friendship shift.
Speaker 3: They don't have to be somebody who's your intimate friend
Speaker 3: has to be your intimate friend forever. They can then
Speaker 3: become your relational friend. And that's that doesn't mean that
Speaker 3: you failed because I think for women in particular, because
Speaker 3: we take our friendship so seriously, is that it's very
Speaker 3: hard when they fall apart in your life, I feel
Speaker 3: like I did something wrong or I should have tried harder.
Speaker 3: And it's it's different because It's unlike your parents, like,
Speaker 3: no matter what, you're stuck with them, right, or your siblings, right,
Speaker 3: it doesn't matter obligation, what happens to them, whether they
Speaker 3: turn into an alcoholic or become a raging bitch or
Speaker 3: like you know, I mean didn't get this, like you're
Speaker 3: like stuck with them. Whereas for friendships, especially as you
Speaker 3: get older, I think people realize, well, I don't have
Speaker 3: to be in this toxic relationship, like I don't have
Speaker 3: to do this.
Speaker 2: Have you managed severe strife in a friendship yourself, Freshena.
Speaker 3: I mean, most recently I've had to contend with the
Speaker 3: potential breakup, which is the first time that's ever happened. No, yeah,
Speaker 3: it's never happened to me before. But I think part
Speaker 3: of without going into the details, right, but part of
Speaker 3: what I think I realized is that it's okay and
Speaker 3: that sometimes people are going through things and you got
Speaker 3: to allow there to be some distance and that doesn't
Speaker 3: mean it's forever, and that's okay. You know, I think
Speaker 3: for a lot of us as women, we carry a
Speaker 3: lot of regret, and we carry a lot of envy,
Speaker 3: a lot of what a should a kodas you know,
Speaker 3: and I think the older you get, you realize that, well,
Speaker 3: that might not happen for me. And I think that
Speaker 3: that oftentimes breathes a lot of anger. And I think
Speaker 3: that a lot of people are struggling, as my monk
Speaker 3: would say, like a lot of people are really suffering.
Speaker 3: And friendships used to be the way you healed, right,
Speaker 3: Like you remember that when you would go through a
Speaker 3: breakup and you'd be like devastated and you just had
Speaker 3: to sit in a room with your girlfriends and like
Speaker 3: drink a lot of wine and eat a lot of
Speaker 3: bad food and just cry and watch a movie and
Speaker 3: like it just after a week of doing that, you were,
Speaker 3: like you felt better. That's just it's just harder to
Speaker 3: do that these days because of all the commitments that
Speaker 3: you have in your life to really use friendship as
Speaker 3: a tool of healing. Well.
Speaker 2: So maybe that's a good point, which is that we
Speaker 2: have to acknowledge that friendship looks different at different stages
Speaker 2: of life and not and again not feel like a
Speaker 2: failure if it doesn't look the way that it used
Speaker 2: to look. You know, if you're not staying up until
Speaker 2: two am talking heart to heart with somebody that doesn't
Speaker 2: mean that they're not a real, true intimate friend the
Speaker 2: way they might have been.
Speaker 1: Although I think we also have to get other people's
Speaker 1: definitions of friends, because some of my friendship strife throughout
Speaker 1: the years has been realizing that, like we're just on
Speaker 1: a different page with how we're defining friendship. Like like
Speaker 1: what like, So I had th very close friends still
Speaker 1: my very close friend. I won't use names, but she'll
Speaker 1: know I'm talking about her who lived near me in
Speaker 1: New Haven, like worked mirror me at yea. We were like,
Speaker 1: you know, bestie's bestie's tight, and for lots of reasons,
Speaker 1: she wound up taking a job really far away. And
Speaker 1: you know, I was not just sad that my friend
Speaker 1: was moving away for all the reasons. I felt devastated,
Speaker 1: Like I felt like there was like a break to
Speaker 1: the friendship. And she couldn't understand this.
Speaker 2: Shop like you felt betrayed almost that she took the job.
Speaker 1: That she took a job, and I knew the job
Speaker 1: was right for her. It was like it was totally
Speaker 1: the right move, but I had this special sense of betrayal.
Speaker 1: And it was only through like a long conversation where
Speaker 1: we realized she was like, oh, wait, like, definitional to
Speaker 1: your idea of our friendship is that we hang out
Speaker 1: in person, see each other at our house, eat meals together,
Speaker 1: walk her dog together. And she was like, that's not
Speaker 1: in my definition. Our friendship will be just as good
Speaker 1: as friends if we do all that same stuff on
Speaker 1: the phone or over zoom or once a month. And
Speaker 1: that conversation I think really helped both of us because
Speaker 1: it was like, Oh, under your definition, this isn't a
Speaker 1: friend breakup to you in the same way it's sort
Speaker 1: of feeling to me. And that just caused me to realize, like, oh,
Speaker 1: we all have these different definitions, like you know, if
Speaker 1: you don't maybe your definition was like, if you don't
Speaker 1: spend your birthday with me, then we're not a good friend.
Speaker 1: Or if like you know, if we don't give gifts
Speaker 1: to each other at Christmas or we don't celebrate our kids' birthdays.
Speaker 1: I think we all have these kind of deep seated,
Speaker 1: intricate ideas of what matters for friendships that we haven't
Speaker 1: told our friends. So our friends sometimes wind up violating
Speaker 1: these that without realizing they're doing.
Speaker 3: That is a really good point and like life maturity, right,
Speaker 3: because I think as you grow, you have more responsibilities.
Speaker 3: You got to take care of your kids, or if
Speaker 3: you have a partner, or if you have like a
Speaker 3: challenging job. So it's like the time that you can
Speaker 3: spend is just different. And I think for some people,
Speaker 3: like for me, I judge quality of time rather than
Speaker 3: like the length of time. I'm going on a girl's
Speaker 3: trip with one of my friends tomorrow, who like lives
Speaker 3: in Atlanta, and maybe we talk on that we see
Speaker 3: each other three times a year, but she is my
Speaker 3: best friend, right and we know that we're going to
Speaker 3: get together for forty eight hours and like it's going
Speaker 3: to feel like we spent a year together. And like
Speaker 3: those are a lot of like you know, the relationships
Speaker 3: that I have in my life where I don't have
Speaker 3: to spend all of this time, But it's the quality
Speaker 3: of time we're together. We're like super into each other
Speaker 3: and super engage and just not like nothing's changed.
Speaker 2: I would say that I think scheduling is the biggest
Speaker 2: obstacle in my life to friendship, which is just the
Speaker 2: sheer new sense of are you free? Okay, maybe you
Speaker 2: live in another country, are you free that I can
Speaker 2: call you while I'm on a call in Central Park
Speaker 2: and we can talk by phone. Yes, okay, what we
Speaker 2: got to manage the time? Oh, we want to go
Speaker 2: into Atlanta on a girls trip. I can't do this weekend.
Speaker 2: What about that week? I no, this week? Oh turns
Speaker 2: out I can't. Can we move it back a week? No,
Speaker 2: we can't.
Speaker 1: Gresh and it's like, you're in my DMS right now. No,
Speaker 1: I'm turning fifty years old this year. Yeah, but maybe
Speaker 1: you're going through the same thing, Rushma, which is like
Speaker 1: my college friends, Like I have this whole coolhor of
Speaker 1: friends who are also turning fifty, and we're like, wouldn't
Speaker 1: it be great if we can have you a fifty
Speaker 1: birthday party all together, and literally our whole DM is like,
Speaker 1: what about June? No, my in laws are coming in June.
Speaker 1: Like I can't do it.
Speaker 3: It's like, oh my gosh.
Speaker 1: And then you just give up. You're like, yes, that's
Speaker 1: exactly what's happened in my group. BED is like no
Speaker 1: one's replied for like the last fourties, and I think
Speaker 1: we're all just like I was like, oh my god.
Speaker 2: Okay, okay. Now speaking of the question of understanding friends
Speaker 2: and maybe holding grace when people bring a different set
Speaker 2: of expectations or different understandings. Okay, so my four tendencies framework,
Speaker 2: which is a personality framework that divides people into upholder's, questioners, obligers,
Speaker 2: and rebels, and it has to do with whether you
Speaker 2: meet or resist outer in inner expectations, outer expectations like
Speaker 2: a work deadline, inner expectations like your own desire to
Speaker 2: keep a near's resolution. And I'm just going to go
Speaker 2: through this super fast. If people want to know more
Speaker 2: about it, they can just go to Gretchenreuben dot com
Speaker 2: slash quiz and take the quiz and find out if
Speaker 2: they're an upholder, a questioner, obliger, rebel. Learn all about it.
Speaker 2: But just for this, just the nutshell version is upholders
Speaker 2: readily meet outer and inner expectations, so they meet the
Speaker 2: work deadline, they keep the New Year's resolution without much fuss. Reshma,
Speaker 2: I know you're an upholder and I'm an a polder.
Speaker 2: We're a small group, small but mighty. A bigger group
Speaker 2: is questioners. Questioners question all expectations. They'll do something if
Speaker 2: they think it makes sense, So they're turning everything into
Speaker 2: an inner expectation, so they have to know why. But
Speaker 2: if they know why and they understand why they can
Speaker 2: do something. Then there are obligers. This is the biggest
Speaker 2: group of people for both men and women. This is
Speaker 2: the largest group, Laurie, you are proud member of Team Obliger.
Speaker 2: Obligers readily meet outer expectations, but they struggle to meet
Speaker 2: inner expectations. So they're really good at keeping their promises
Speaker 2: to other people, but they struggle to keep their promises
Speaker 2: to themselves unless they have that outer accountability. And then
Speaker 2: finally rebels. Rebels resist all expectations out an inner alike.
Speaker 2: So these are the people who can do anything they
Speaker 2: want to do anything they choose to do, but if
Speaker 2: you ask or tell them to do something, they will resist.
Speaker 2: And typically they don't sell themselves what to do, so
Speaker 2: they don't like put anything on the calendar. And the
Speaker 2: reason why I think the four tendencies is helpful for
Speaker 2: friendship is that I found that now that I understand
Speaker 2: the four tendancies, I'm much more understanding of how different
Speaker 2: people are different and bring a different energy into relationships.
Speaker 2: For instance, rebels often don't like to put something on
Speaker 2: the calendar. It makes them feel trapped. They don't like it.
Speaker 2: So I had a rebel friend who I would try
Speaker 2: to say something like Hey, do you want to go
Speaker 2: to a movie on Friday? And she would always just
Speaker 2: be really evasive. I'd be like, Oh, there's this great play,
Speaker 2: do you want to see it? And I'm like, does
Speaker 2: this person not really like me because they don't want
Speaker 2: to commit to me? But then I'm like, know, now
Speaker 2: that I know she's a rebel, it's much better to
Speaker 2: say something last minute, like Hey, I'm going to be
Speaker 2: in your neighborhood. If you're going to be around on
Speaker 2: Saturday afternoon you want to grab a coffee, you can
Speaker 2: let me know. I'll just text you when I mean
Speaker 2: I'm outside your door, because then it's spontaneous and she
Speaker 2: can do whatever she wants. But so that helped me
Speaker 2: understand how not to be angry or resentful when people
Speaker 2: behaved in a certain way. So I don't know, as
Speaker 2: an obliger or an upholder, have you seen how this
Speaker 2: might cause conflict or explain things that you've.
Speaker 3: Experienced for the rection, Am I more likely to have
Speaker 3: a better relationship with someone who is just like me
Speaker 3: and a polder? Or No?
Speaker 2: Probably? Yeah, right, because because it's like you just no,
Speaker 2: But obliger just get along with everybody. Obligerent type, they
Speaker 2: are the ones that get the best with all three tendencies.
Speaker 1: Yes, except I think except you know, I've always like
Speaker 1: wondered about, you know, the like scientific efficacy of the
Speaker 1: four tendans.
Speaker 2: Sure, I know, and Annie Murphy Paul who studies personality frameworks.
Speaker 1: Yes, but there is deep truth into one part of
Speaker 1: the obliger personality type that you've talked about, which is
Speaker 1: this phenomena that you've called obliger rebellion, which is when
Speaker 1: the obligers have too many external demands on our time,
Speaker 1: sometimes they're just like f it, I'm giving up on everything. Yes,
Speaker 1: and definitely I have been in that mode before. And
Speaker 1: the sad thing is like, sometimes what has to give
Speaker 1: is stuff with my friends for which I'm really embarrassed,
Speaker 1: right Like I'm kind of like, oh my gosh, I'm
Speaker 1: overwhelmed for everything. But I don't, you know, quit my
Speaker 1: podcasting job or not show up for my teaching gig.
Speaker 1: But that yoga session I was going to have with
Speaker 1: a friend, Hey, can we do that another time? I'll
Speaker 1: switch it up. Or that call that I know I
Speaker 1: was going to put out for a friend who was
Speaker 1: grieving that kind of falls by the wayside.
Speaker 3: That's interesting.
Speaker 2: And I think this is a perfect example. If I'm
Speaker 2: your friend and I know you're obliger, and I see
Speaker 2: obliged rebellion, I feel like the burning resentment and the
Speaker 2: burnout and the overwhelmed happening. I can say things to
Speaker 2: you so that you don't feel like I'm putting pressure
Speaker 2: on you. Yes, exactly, you know, like, hey, you know
Speaker 2: you've got so much going on. I know we talked
Speaker 2: about doing it this weekend, but maybe we should push
Speaker 2: it to next month when the dust settles.
Speaker 1: Oh dredging you just saying that, I feel like then
Speaker 1: weight on my chest was like that's great. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: because you don't feel like it's personal.
Speaker 2: You don't feel like it's personal.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And so for I think for an upholder, I
Speaker 3: don't have those problems because I'm so disciplined and so
Speaker 3: scheduled that I'm like, I immediately think it's personal.
Speaker 2: Right, Like if you drop the ball on me, why
Speaker 2: you must have chosen you must have not.
Speaker 3: Thought that I was. You must have looked through your
Speaker 3: calendar and like, well, she's not important, so I'm going
Speaker 3: to cancel that.
Speaker 2: Or if somebody if you say to a friend, oh,
Speaker 2: well you know, I'm going to be free Saturday afternoon,
Speaker 2: five weeks from now at two, and somebody's like, well,
Speaker 2: I don't really want to commit, and you're like, what's
Speaker 2: your problem. Let's put this on the calendar so that
Speaker 2: it happens. If you're important to me and I'm important
Speaker 2: to you, there's a place on the calendar for that.
Speaker 2: And other people are like your bananas for scheduling out
Speaker 2: your life.
Speaker 1: You know, five weeks someone who's close friends with a
Speaker 1: few different rebels that just.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it doesn't work.
Speaker 3: It doesn't work, don't work. Yeah, it doesn't work. So
Speaker 3: I guess at midlife, though, should we just make friends
Speaker 3: with people like us because it's easier.
Speaker 1: No, you get so much out of friendships with people
Speaker 1: who are different than you.
Speaker 2: Well, and I'm married to a question and it's super
Speaker 2: valuable because I always have his voice in my head
Speaker 2: being like, why are you going to do that? Because
Speaker 2: this is an upholder. My tendency is like okay, will
Speaker 2: do And I think it gives you a grace for
Speaker 2: understanding how people are just bringing a completely different perspective in.
Speaker 2: So then the last thing I want to ask, and
Speaker 2: this is a really fun question, which is do you
Speaker 2: have a try this at home suggestion for listeners? Is
Speaker 2: there something that a person could do as part of
Speaker 2: their ordinary day to either deep in existing friendships or
Speaker 2: build towards new friendships because we've talked about both and
Speaker 2: you sort of have to maintain and cultivate both, which
Speaker 2: sounds like a lot of work and a lot of time,
Speaker 2: which we do not have. Yes, but what are some simple,
Speaker 2: easy things that we can incorporate?
Speaker 3: I got one, like, so my friend Tiffany Defu taught
Speaker 3: me this.
Speaker 2: I think, you know, she's an obliger.
Speaker 3: I can see that so well. But then this is
Speaker 3: an interesting story. So she was telling the story how
Speaker 3: she had, you know, she had a girl's trip planned,
Speaker 3: and her daughter Kua said to her, oh, mom, you
Speaker 3: know I need you this weekend.
Speaker 2: Ooh okay, Laurie as an obliger, yeah is that buttons, Yeah.
Speaker 3: It's like I need you this weekend. It's really important.
Speaker 3: And Tiffany thought about it and she looked at her
Speaker 3: and she said, no, I'm going to go on my
Speaker 3: girl's trip because if I don't show you that, I'm
Speaker 3: going to put myself first, then you are never going
Speaker 3: to learn that that's important to do that. And so
Speaker 3: I think the take home that I would say to
Speaker 3: all of us is we all need to do that
Speaker 3: because it's often the girls trip that gets canceled, It's
Speaker 3: often the dinner with friends that gets canceled. It's often
Speaker 3: our friendships, right that take the back seat to like
Speaker 3: everyone else's needs. And we know, no, no, no, that
Speaker 3: when you die, the thing that mattered the most was
Speaker 3: your friendships in your relationship. So like that can't be
Speaker 3: in the back. So I think every time we feel
Speaker 3: that push and pull, pick friendship.
Speaker 1: Yeah, love that, love that.
Speaker 2: And can you think of an example in your own
Speaker 2: life where you had to have that struggle in your
Speaker 2: own mind of part of me wants to keep working
Speaker 2: or buckle down or go to sleep early all the time.
Speaker 3: I have like a five and a ten year old,
Speaker 3: who are two boys who make me feel guilty every
Speaker 3: single minute. I could be around them all day long.
Speaker 3: There where are you going? I mean, I'm going to
Speaker 3: Miami with my girlfriend Deepa tomorrow and my son pouted
Speaker 3: all the way to school when he realized that I
Speaker 3: was leaving the next day. So I think, like mom.
Speaker 3: Guilt is real and it is a constant exercise. You
Speaker 3: know what I mean that I know that I have
Speaker 3: to go through and one of the things though, it
Speaker 3: has taught me, though, Gretchen and I've really been thinking
Speaker 3: about this. I remember I go to a conference and
Speaker 3: I would tell a story about that that my son
Speaker 3: was upset that I was leaving, and the women in
Speaker 3: the room would say, well, don't worry Rushma, because he's
Speaker 3: not going to remember. And I remember thinking to myself,
Speaker 3: but I'm going to remember.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah.
Speaker 3: So I think it's really important to figure out what
Speaker 3: you want and what makes you happy. And it was
Speaker 3: interesting Lori's I was listening to you. I cancel other
Speaker 3: things before my friends. I need to be with friends.
Speaker 3: I need that girls trip, that dinner, that plate like,
Speaker 3: I need my girl time.
Speaker 1: Well, as Gretchen will tell you, obliged to rebellion is
Speaker 1: not the most rational state to be in when you
Speaker 1: hit that point, unfortunately.
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, but it's interesting that you articulated for yourself
Speaker 2: in that way. And I think that's helpful. Like my
Speaker 2: identity is I am a good friend. I show up
Speaker 2: and when I'm weighing this versus that friendship prevails. Like
Speaker 2: say to myself, when I'm trying to think of how
Speaker 2: to spend my precious time, energy, or money, I should
Speaker 2: always try to spend it on relationships. And that's just
Speaker 2: like a heuristic that helps me, Like should I pay
Speaker 2: to go to my college reunion and deal with the
Speaker 2: hassle of making the things? Or should I stay on
Speaker 2: that really tiresome text chain or like you were saying, Lord,
Speaker 2: are you the one that has to bear the awkwardness
Speaker 2: of the first want to get a copy where you
Speaker 2: feel like, oh my gosh, this feels so silly. So
Speaker 2: I think that's a really great thing. And I think
Speaker 2: just being really spelling that out for ourselves, being very explicit,
Speaker 2: is very helpful. And how about you, Laurie, what would
Speaker 2: you say?
Speaker 1: So mine that I've been really trying to act on
Speaker 1: myself lately is remembering that we're biased when it comes
Speaker 1: to like connecting with other people. Right, So I often
Speaker 1: am just going through the day and we'll have thoughts
Speaker 1: about friends, Like yesterday, I was carrying a bag that
Speaker 1: a friend of mine picked up on her trip to Africa.
Speaker 1: It's this very pretty, like blue kind of like grocery
Speaker 1: bag thing. And I was just using it to carry something,
Speaker 1: and I just had a positive thought about my friend, right,
Speaker 1: what you normally do just keep those positive thoughts to ourselves.
Speaker 1: But of course I could have just like text her
Speaker 1: and be like, hey, have your bag today, still enjoying it.
Speaker 2: Just thinking of you, or like like just even sending
Speaker 2: a photo of you holding.
Speaker 1: You with the bag, I'm still using it. Yeah, And
Speaker 1: so this is something I've tried to do a lot
Speaker 1: more when I have a positive thought about a friend,
Speaker 1: whether that's a memory or especially a gift that someone
Speaker 1: gave you. Often you're still enjoying the gifts that someone
Speaker 1: gave you and noticing it, but you never like remind
Speaker 1: people right, you know, like the mug they gave you exactly,
Speaker 1: And in fact I did. I did just this this
Speaker 1: week with a friend of mine who literally gave me
Speaker 1: a mug that I was like, I'm enjoying your mug
Speaker 1: this morning, and it caused a conversation with a friend
Speaker 1: I hadn't connected with, and she was like, oh, that's
Speaker 1: so nice to hear this morning because I'm right now
Speaker 1: sitting in palliative care with my father who's not doing well.
Speaker 1: And then I knew about that, and had I not
Speaker 1: texted her about the MUG, I wouldn't have known that situation.
Speaker 1: And so whenever you have an urge to give a
Speaker 1: compliment and no a moment of gratitude, a memory, thinking
Speaker 1: of you, just send the text, just put in the call,
Speaker 1: just drop it in the email. You feel like they
Speaker 1: won't notice, it won't matter to them, But there's literally
Speaker 1: studies on this that shows no, it matters more than
Speaker 1: you think. It's less awkward than you think, it means
Speaker 1: more to the person than you think. Our biases mean
Speaker 1: we like are underreach out. But that like moment of
Speaker 1: check in, you know, especially that story, I wouldn't have
Speaker 1: known that something bad was happening in her life. And
Speaker 1: now I can check in and we can reconnect and
Speaker 1: I can be there to help in a way that
Speaker 1: I'm so happy I get to do that, right.
Speaker 3: I love that.
Speaker 2: One way that I do that is I'll often, in
Speaker 2: an idle moment, go back. I'm always sort of interested in,
Speaker 2: like what was happening this day, eight years ago or whatever,
Speaker 2: And it'll often surface a picture of a friend or
Speaker 2: something that we shared, and I'll just send it to
Speaker 2: them and I usually just say flashback. I don't even
Speaker 2: I don't even I can't even be bothered to type
Speaker 2: a caption, you know. But again, I think it is
Speaker 2: the idea that you're present in someone else's consciousness. Yes,
Speaker 2: they're thinking of you, they're remembering you, or like, oh,
Speaker 2: some this equal to a movie you saw together, like
Speaker 2: something even from the news or something like that.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah, because people are going through things, so many things,
Speaker 3: and I think knowing that someone may be thinking about them,
Speaker 3: it's just it can shift their whole day so completely completely.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, and maybe that's a good thing to remember,
Speaker 2: which is we think about how the friendships strengthen us
Speaker 2: and make us happier. But then you also think, well,
Speaker 2: but they're being made happier the friend and palliative care.
Speaker 2: You didn't even think of it, but you're making that
Speaker 2: person happier. And so when you're planning your trip to Atlanta,
Speaker 2: you're happier. But then your friend is happier too, and
Speaker 2: so it's easy to sort of think about, what, how
Speaker 2: is this boosting my happiness? But of course there's more
Speaker 2: than one person involved.
Speaker 1: Yet, and usually your perspective is wrong, right, Like when
Speaker 1: I'm thinking like, oh, I'll text my friend because using
Speaker 1: her bag and really appreciating it. Yeah, I'm thinking like, well,
Speaker 1: how's that going to feel to me?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 1: Of course she's on the other end and it's going
Speaker 1: to hit her totally different. She's in the middle of
Speaker 1: some random Wednesday and whatever stressor and she gets this
Speaker 1: happy text. Right, that's surprise, which I didn't feel when
Speaker 1: I was planning it, but she feels it on the
Speaker 1: recipient end, and there's like, you know, just like this
Speaker 1: warm glow that people think about this. This is something
Speaker 1: else that some of the research shows that I've always
Speaker 1: tried to take to heart. This is work by Nick
Speaker 1: Epple and his colleagues. He finds that when we're thinking
Speaker 1: about reaching out to someone, we tend to focus on
Speaker 1: what he calls our competency. Am I going to write
Speaker 1: the right text? Do I have time to not just
Speaker 1: put like flashback and write the whole thing? Right? Am
Speaker 1: I saying it right?
Speaker 3: You know?
Speaker 1: That's what we focus on, But our recipient doesn't see
Speaker 1: any of that. They tend to just focus on the
Speaker 1: warmth of it, like it's out of nowhere, this person
Speaker 1: thought of me. It made me feel good, right, And
Speaker 1: so sometimes our ability to do something nice for our friends,
Speaker 1: get stuck in the competency party. Here's just another example.
Speaker 1: I had a friend who is just he and his
Speaker 1: wife just had a new baby, and I was like,
Speaker 1: oh my gosh, it's been around since my friends were
Speaker 1: having newborns, Like what do you do? Like, oh, you
Speaker 1: send food? Like how do you send food or whatever?
Speaker 1: And I was all up in my head about do
Speaker 1: you send lasagna? Do they like lasagnya and grinala?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 1: And then I was thinking back to Nick's research and
Speaker 1: it was like, wait, they're not going to think about
Speaker 1: any of that. They're not going to analyize it like
Speaker 1: that kind of was on you. They're just gonna be like,
Speaker 1: oh my gosh, Laurie, out of the blue, semi this
Speaker 1: nice thing. That's so nice. And so the idea is like,
Speaker 1: whenever you get to urge to do something nice or
Speaker 1: to connect, don't overanalyze. They're not going to notice that.
Speaker 1: Just dive in and do it. However you do it,
Speaker 1: it will feel good to them.
Speaker 3: The other thing is you guys are talking. I think
Speaker 3: it's also great role modeling for our kids. Yeah, Like
Speaker 3: both me and my husband like really value friendships. People
Speaker 3: are always in our house, like you know what I mean,
Speaker 3: And it's good, especially when you see how much more
Speaker 3: isolated children are becoming now because of technology, and that
Speaker 3: when we're making the effort to go have dinner with people,
Speaker 3: or go to the next game with somebody, or go
Speaker 3: on vacation with somebody, it's just good role modeling too.
Speaker 2: Yes, I think, yeah, no, they see that you have
Speaker 2: a book group, they see that you're going out with yeah, right,
Speaker 2: exactly exactly, that you're going to birthday parties. You're having
Speaker 2: a birthday party.
Speaker 1: It also just makes adult life look less miserable than
Speaker 1: when we're not like having fun with other people. I
Speaker 1: think a lot of times kids are like me, an,
Speaker 1: adult life is like terrible, But like when they see
Speaker 1: us going on a trip to Miami with our girlfriends
Speaker 1: or having that book club, it's like, oh, it's much
Speaker 1: more palatable than that.
Speaker 2: Not yes, exactly, Well, listen, this is so much fun.
Speaker 2: Lourie Reshma, thank you for talking friendship with me. I
Speaker 2: feel elevated just having this conversation.
Speaker 1: Thanks so much for having us on the show.
Speaker 3: This was so much fun. And we're new friends now.
Speaker 2: Yeah, we're new friends now.
Speaker 1: Yes, Miami trip next week.
Speaker 2: That's right, that's right, let's do it. Well. We hope
Speaker 2: you're feeling happier after this episode. Remember, the best time
Speaker 2: to start a happiness project is twenty years ago. The
Speaker 2: second best time is now. Yeah,