1 00:00:15,476 --> 00:00:22,956 Speaker 1: Pushkin. Hey, Happiness Lab listeners, today you're in for a 2 00:00:23,036 --> 00:00:26,516 Speaker 1: treat because my friend, best selling author and happiness expert, 3 00:00:26,516 --> 00:00:29,156 Speaker 1: Gretchen Rubin just had me join her for a special 4 00:00:29,156 --> 00:00:33,236 Speaker 1: episode of her podcast, Happier with Gretchen Rubin. In this episode, 5 00:00:33,316 --> 00:00:36,796 Speaker 1: Gretchen and I took part in her first ever friendship roundtable, 6 00:00:37,596 --> 00:00:40,916 Speaker 1: and we were joined by the amazing Rushma Sajani, founder 7 00:00:40,996 --> 00:00:42,996 Speaker 1: of Girls Who Code and host of the My so 8 00:00:43,116 --> 00:00:48,476 Speaker 1: called midlife podcast. Gretchen Rushman and I talked about our friendships, 9 00:00:48,756 --> 00:00:52,716 Speaker 1: how they've changed over time, how we try to handle conflict, 10 00:00:52,756 --> 00:00:55,556 Speaker 1: and how we've made friends in adulthood. I enjoyed our 11 00:00:55,596 --> 00:00:57,716 Speaker 1: conversation a lot, and I bet you will too. 12 00:01:05,156 --> 00:01:08,556 Speaker 2: Because friendship is such a huge element to a happier life. 13 00:01:08,636 --> 00:01:12,316 Speaker 2: It is a great subject for a roundtable discussion to 14 00:01:12,396 --> 00:01:15,236 Speaker 2: go deeper, and three of us are here today to 15 00:01:15,356 --> 00:01:19,596 Speaker 2: talk about friendship. I'm Gretchen Rubin, a writer who studies happiness, 16 00:01:19,676 --> 00:01:23,316 Speaker 2: human nature, and friendship, and I am the host of 17 00:01:23,356 --> 00:01:26,436 Speaker 2: the Happier with Gretchen Ruben podcast. And also here today 18 00:01:26,556 --> 00:01:29,956 Speaker 2: is Lorie Santos. Lauri is a professor at Yale University, 19 00:01:30,076 --> 00:01:33,316 Speaker 2: where she has taught the most popular course in Yale History, 20 00:01:33,476 --> 00:01:36,556 Speaker 2: Psychology and the Good Life, and she's also host of 21 00:01:36,636 --> 00:01:41,036 Speaker 2: the Happiness Lab podcast, a terrific podcast that helps listeners 22 00:01:41,116 --> 00:01:44,116 Speaker 2: improve their well being with the science of happiness. 23 00:01:44,156 --> 00:01:46,916 Speaker 1: Hello, Laurie, Hey, Gretchen, Thanks so much for having me 24 00:01:46,956 --> 00:01:49,156 Speaker 1: on the show. This roundtable is fun, and we'll build 25 00:01:49,156 --> 00:01:49,876 Speaker 1: our own friendship. 26 00:01:49,916 --> 00:01:52,956 Speaker 2: We'll build our friendship. There we go, and we are 27 00:01:52,996 --> 00:01:56,396 Speaker 2: also here with Reshma Sojohnny Reshman is the founder of 28 00:01:56,516 --> 00:02:00,676 Speaker 2: successful nonprofits Girls Who Code and Moms First, and the 29 00:02:00,716 --> 00:02:04,956 Speaker 2: best selling author of books including Pay Up, Brave, Not Perfect, 30 00:02:05,036 --> 00:02:08,396 Speaker 2: and the Girls Who Code book series. She is host 31 00:02:08,396 --> 00:02:12,276 Speaker 2: of the terrific podcast My So Called Midlife, where she 32 00:02:12,396 --> 00:02:16,036 Speaker 2: tackles the question She's gotten everything she's ever wanted, so 33 00:02:16,156 --> 00:02:20,636 Speaker 2: why does she feel so unsatisfied? Hello, Rashna, Hi Kretschen. 34 00:02:20,836 --> 00:02:21,716 Speaker 3: So great to be here. 35 00:02:21,996 --> 00:02:25,196 Speaker 2: This is going to be such a fun conversation. Okay, So, friendship. 36 00:02:25,556 --> 00:02:30,276 Speaker 2: Ancient philosophers and contemporary scientists agree that relationships are a 37 00:02:30,356 --> 00:02:33,476 Speaker 2: key element to a happy life, and friendship is certainly 38 00:02:33,596 --> 00:02:37,476 Speaker 2: an extraordinarily important form of relationship. Lately, I have been 39 00:02:37,556 --> 00:02:39,956 Speaker 2: going through the empty nest phase of life, which I'm 40 00:02:40,036 --> 00:02:43,036 Speaker 2: rebranding is the open door phase of life. And one 41 00:02:43,036 --> 00:02:46,916 Speaker 2: thing that I noticed is how sometimes in this stage 42 00:02:46,956 --> 00:02:51,516 Speaker 2: people realize that they've been confusing friends with acquaintances, like 43 00:02:51,556 --> 00:02:53,596 Speaker 2: they thought they had friends, but they really just have 44 00:02:53,716 --> 00:02:56,396 Speaker 2: friendly acquaintances. And as I started talking more and more 45 00:02:56,436 --> 00:02:59,356 Speaker 2: about friendship, I could see that people were really fired 46 00:02:59,436 --> 00:03:03,116 Speaker 2: up about this subject. People really understand how important it is. 47 00:03:03,476 --> 00:03:06,556 Speaker 2: And we're recording this in women's history months. And while 48 00:03:06,556 --> 00:03:08,956 Speaker 2: friendships are certainly not exclusive to women, there is some 49 00:03:09,436 --> 00:03:12,196 Speaker 2: kind of special about women's friendships. And so I'm so 50 00:03:12,236 --> 00:03:14,476 Speaker 2: excited to talk to you both about friendship. 51 00:03:14,796 --> 00:03:16,556 Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, this is gonna be awesome. 52 00:03:16,396 --> 00:03:20,116 Speaker 2: Excellent, So let's talk about friendship in your own life. 53 00:03:20,236 --> 00:03:23,076 Speaker 2: Have there been any special steps that you have taken 54 00:03:23,156 --> 00:03:27,716 Speaker 2: in your own life to either strengthen existing friendships or 55 00:03:27,756 --> 00:03:30,396 Speaker 2: to create new friendships? I mean, because what does it 56 00:03:30,436 --> 00:03:32,516 Speaker 2: make new friends but keep the old one is silver, 57 00:03:32,636 --> 00:03:34,356 Speaker 2: the others gold? What have you done in your own 58 00:03:34,476 --> 00:03:37,636 Speaker 2: life towards this aim, Laurie, I'll let me ask you first. 59 00:03:37,996 --> 00:03:39,916 Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, one of the reasons I was so excited 60 00:03:39,956 --> 00:03:41,516 Speaker 1: to have this conversation is I feel like this is 61 00:03:41,516 --> 00:03:44,396 Speaker 1: something I've been thinking about a lot, right. You know, 62 00:03:44,396 --> 00:03:46,756 Speaker 1: I went through this period of feeling super burned out, 63 00:03:46,916 --> 00:03:49,236 Speaker 1: and one of the things I recognized during that period 64 00:03:49,276 --> 00:03:51,276 Speaker 1: was that like I hadn't been investing enough time in 65 00:03:51,316 --> 00:03:53,716 Speaker 1: my friendships. I too felt like I had a lot 66 00:03:53,716 --> 00:03:56,396 Speaker 1: of these like so called relational friendships where it's like, 67 00:03:56,836 --> 00:03:58,876 Speaker 1: you know, maybe I would see somebody at work, or 68 00:03:58,996 --> 00:04:00,956 Speaker 1: we were just kind of friends because we happened, you know, 69 00:04:00,956 --> 00:04:03,436 Speaker 1: my husband happened to know his partner or something like that. 70 00:04:03,716 --> 00:04:05,676 Speaker 1: And like it was I was finding that I just 71 00:04:05,676 --> 00:04:07,996 Speaker 1: like didn't have the close connections that I thought. And so, 72 00:04:08,436 --> 00:04:10,436 Speaker 1: you know, like a do full like happiness scientists that 73 00:04:10,476 --> 00:04:12,636 Speaker 1: I am. I was like, I'm gonna go about making friends. 74 00:04:12,916 --> 00:04:14,956 Speaker 2: I'm putting it in the lab, putting it in. 75 00:04:14,876 --> 00:04:17,876 Speaker 1: The lab, right, Like, but it's hard. It's hard in midlife, 76 00:04:17,956 --> 00:04:19,156 Speaker 1: I think for lots of reasons. 77 00:04:19,196 --> 00:04:19,356 Speaker 3: Right. 78 00:04:19,396 --> 00:04:22,516 Speaker 1: One is that we're all so busy. Right, It wasn't 79 00:04:22,556 --> 00:04:24,636 Speaker 1: the ease with which I made friendships with people, say 80 00:04:24,716 --> 00:04:26,676 Speaker 1: like in college or something like that, where you're naturally 81 00:04:26,756 --> 00:04:29,796 Speaker 1: running into each other. You meet someone at your yoga class, 82 00:04:29,956 --> 00:04:31,716 Speaker 1: or I have this sort of movie night that I 83 00:04:31,756 --> 00:04:33,556 Speaker 1: go to. You meet friends there and it's like you 84 00:04:33,636 --> 00:04:35,716 Speaker 1: actually have to put something in the calendar and that 85 00:04:35,756 --> 00:04:40,236 Speaker 1: can be prohibitively taxing. But having put some effort into this, 86 00:04:40,356 --> 00:04:42,356 Speaker 1: I can say that it is possible in midlife to 87 00:04:42,396 --> 00:04:45,236 Speaker 1: make new friends. But it does feel like it takes 88 00:04:45,236 --> 00:04:46,716 Speaker 1: some energy in some work. 89 00:04:46,676 --> 00:04:48,596 Speaker 2: And was there anything specific you tried. 90 00:04:49,596 --> 00:04:52,076 Speaker 1: I think it's like putting yourself out there and offering, 91 00:04:52,196 --> 00:04:54,116 Speaker 1: like you have to be the one that says like, hey, 92 00:04:54,156 --> 00:04:55,956 Speaker 1: maybe we should go on a coffee date, or maybe 93 00:04:55,956 --> 00:04:57,996 Speaker 1: we should go shopping together, maybe we should go see 94 00:04:57,996 --> 00:05:00,556 Speaker 1: this movie together. What I did find though, is that 95 00:05:00,596 --> 00:05:02,396 Speaker 1: if you can kind of get through the hurdle of 96 00:05:02,476 --> 00:05:06,516 Speaker 1: like figuring out everybody's collective schedules, people are usually really 97 00:05:06,556 --> 00:05:09,116 Speaker 1: into it. Like my experience has been like when you 98 00:05:09,236 --> 00:05:11,396 Speaker 1: kind of push people to like take the friendship a 99 00:05:11,476 --> 00:05:13,756 Speaker 1: next step, most people are kind of into that. It's 100 00:05:13,796 --> 00:05:15,516 Speaker 1: just like we're all so busy it can be hard 101 00:05:15,516 --> 00:05:16,636 Speaker 1: to get things on the calendar. 102 00:05:16,996 --> 00:05:18,876 Speaker 2: Well, and I know that there's research showing that, like 103 00:05:18,916 --> 00:05:21,236 Speaker 2: people really do value relationships. And even though you can 104 00:05:21,276 --> 00:05:23,876 Speaker 2: feel sort of awkward or self conscious by making that 105 00:05:24,436 --> 00:05:27,716 Speaker 2: gesture to go deeper with a friendship, usually people are 106 00:05:27,756 --> 00:05:29,396 Speaker 2: very welcome of it, Like, if you want to be friends, 107 00:05:29,476 --> 00:05:31,036 Speaker 2: probably they want to be friends. And that's kind of 108 00:05:31,036 --> 00:05:32,356 Speaker 2: comforting to remember totally. 109 00:05:32,476 --> 00:05:34,036 Speaker 1: And I think this is a whole set of biases 110 00:05:34,076 --> 00:05:36,076 Speaker 1: that I think if we're talking about friendship we need 111 00:05:36,076 --> 00:05:38,076 Speaker 1: to acknowledge, which is that our minds kind of suck 112 00:05:38,076 --> 00:05:40,676 Speaker 1: when it comes to thinking about friendships, Like we just 113 00:05:40,716 --> 00:05:44,916 Speaker 1: have these biases that lead us towards anti friendship or undersociality, 114 00:05:44,956 --> 00:05:47,996 Speaker 1: as the researcher Nick Epley calls it. One of my 115 00:05:48,036 --> 00:05:51,556 Speaker 1: favorite ones is this effect called the liking gap, which 116 00:05:51,596 --> 00:05:53,916 Speaker 1: is just like you assume that everybody in your life, 117 00:05:53,956 --> 00:05:56,796 Speaker 1: from your best best you know, writer Diabesty to like 118 00:05:56,836 --> 00:05:59,196 Speaker 1: the person that you chat with occasionally at the coffee shop. 119 00:05:59,196 --> 00:06:02,076 Speaker 1: You assume that that person likes you less than that 120 00:06:02,116 --> 00:06:05,036 Speaker 1: person actually likes you. Uh huh. The liking gap is 121 00:06:05,076 --> 00:06:08,356 Speaker 1: like such a sad series of studies because they find it, 122 00:06:08,436 --> 00:06:10,756 Speaker 1: like even like college roommates, Like your college roommate that 123 00:06:10,796 --> 00:06:12,436 Speaker 1: you've lived with for a year. If you ask how 124 00:06:12,516 --> 00:06:15,156 Speaker 1: much does your college roomate like you, A person will say, well, 125 00:06:15,196 --> 00:06:17,036 Speaker 1: they like me, you like only so, so where's the 126 00:06:17,036 --> 00:06:17,996 Speaker 1: college roomate's Like, Oh. 127 00:06:17,876 --> 00:06:19,756 Speaker 3: My gosh, I love them. That's so interesting. 128 00:06:19,876 --> 00:06:23,956 Speaker 1: It's like systematically pushing us. Yeah, systematically pushing us towards 129 00:06:24,036 --> 00:06:27,116 Speaker 1: less friendship, which is which is terrible. Our mind shouldn't 130 00:06:27,116 --> 00:06:27,636 Speaker 1: work that way. 131 00:06:27,996 --> 00:06:31,916 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's reassuring to remember that though. That's totally total. Man, 132 00:06:31,916 --> 00:06:34,316 Speaker 2: how about you, Rushma, what have you done to strengthen 133 00:06:34,356 --> 00:06:35,716 Speaker 2: our build relationships? 134 00:06:35,996 --> 00:06:37,796 Speaker 3: God, I mean, as Laurie is talking, I have so 135 00:06:37,796 --> 00:06:40,436 Speaker 3: many thoughts. I mean, well, first of all, I always 136 00:06:40,516 --> 00:06:44,196 Speaker 3: had a tight crew of friends, and so I've been 137 00:06:44,276 --> 00:06:47,836 Speaker 3: someone who you know, spends my life being extrovert, as 138 00:06:47,916 --> 00:06:50,876 Speaker 3: both of you understand, and so like, I like keeping 139 00:06:50,916 --> 00:06:54,276 Speaker 3: it tight and small, and I like being able to 140 00:06:54,516 --> 00:06:56,596 Speaker 3: just you know, when I have dinner with a friend 141 00:06:56,676 --> 00:06:58,156 Speaker 3: or we go on a girls' trips, like we're just 142 00:06:58,236 --> 00:07:02,116 Speaker 3: talking about gossip, about celebrity gossip or about nothing. Like 143 00:07:02,556 --> 00:07:04,676 Speaker 3: it's just not serious. We're not talking about jobs, we're 144 00:07:04,716 --> 00:07:06,116 Speaker 3: not talking about like what we want to change that. 145 00:07:06,236 --> 00:07:09,556 Speaker 3: I've spent my whole life doing that. So I'm a 146 00:07:09,676 --> 00:07:13,116 Speaker 3: really good friend. Like I pride myself. 147 00:07:12,636 --> 00:07:15,116 Speaker 2: On it, right, Oh, identity. 148 00:07:15,476 --> 00:07:17,836 Speaker 3: Yeah, Like I feel like ironically, even though I might 149 00:07:17,876 --> 00:07:20,316 Speaker 3: be the busiest, I'm out of all my friends, like 150 00:07:20,796 --> 00:07:23,876 Speaker 3: I'm the three am phone call, right, I'm the friend 151 00:07:24,036 --> 00:07:28,156 Speaker 3: when you're going through substance abuse that is there, right, Like, 152 00:07:28,316 --> 00:07:31,196 Speaker 3: I'm that friend. And so I think in order for 153 00:07:31,236 --> 00:07:33,396 Speaker 3: me to be a good friend, I always kept my 154 00:07:33,996 --> 00:07:38,996 Speaker 3: friendship circle really small, but my acquaintance pool very large. Right. 155 00:07:39,636 --> 00:07:41,116 Speaker 3: So I have a drink with you, right, you know 156 00:07:41,116 --> 00:07:43,236 Speaker 3: what I mean, We'll catch up, but I'm not going 157 00:07:43,316 --> 00:07:45,316 Speaker 3: to tell you all my secrets, right or like we're 158 00:07:45,316 --> 00:07:46,876 Speaker 3: not you know, we're not going to get there because 159 00:07:46,876 --> 00:07:48,676 Speaker 3: I just don't think then I have the can can 160 00:07:48,756 --> 00:07:52,396 Speaker 3: give that way. So I think one that's always been 161 00:07:52,436 --> 00:07:54,036 Speaker 3: really important to me. So one of the reasons why 162 00:07:54,036 --> 00:07:55,796 Speaker 3: I wanted to really start looking at midlife is in 163 00:07:55,916 --> 00:07:59,796 Speaker 3: midlife things change, and even people you've been friends with 164 00:07:59,836 --> 00:08:04,396 Speaker 3: for twenty years change and there's breakups and if you're 165 00:08:04,436 --> 00:08:09,356 Speaker 3: somebody that like has kept your crew tight, that's really hard. 166 00:08:09,916 --> 00:08:11,676 Speaker 3: I think the second thing is is that living in 167 00:08:11,716 --> 00:08:14,916 Speaker 3: New York, everybody leaves so all of a sudden, right. 168 00:08:14,996 --> 00:08:17,716 Speaker 3: I feel like I found myself when my kids were 169 00:08:17,796 --> 00:08:19,556 Speaker 3: really young, Like, oh my god, I got too many 170 00:08:19,556 --> 00:08:20,956 Speaker 3: people I got to have dinner with, or see a 171 00:08:20,956 --> 00:08:23,076 Speaker 3: Broadway show with, or do this thing with to all 172 00:08:23,116 --> 00:08:24,636 Speaker 3: of a sudden like looking at my ten year old 173 00:08:24,716 --> 00:08:25,876 Speaker 3: being like, what are you doing tonight? You want to 174 00:08:25,876 --> 00:08:30,196 Speaker 3: watch a movie? Right? Like everything shit because nobody was 175 00:08:30,796 --> 00:08:33,196 Speaker 3: there left and I had not learned, and I still 176 00:08:33,236 --> 00:08:35,756 Speaker 3: don't know. I still don't I still don't know how 177 00:08:35,756 --> 00:08:38,916 Speaker 3: to make new friends. I really struggle. I can make 178 00:08:38,956 --> 00:08:41,876 Speaker 3: a lot of acquaintances, but I really struggle with new friends. 179 00:08:41,916 --> 00:08:44,196 Speaker 3: And if I was honest too, I just also like 180 00:08:44,316 --> 00:08:45,716 Speaker 3: had a little bit of judgment around it. And I 181 00:08:45,716 --> 00:08:48,636 Speaker 3: remember I was reading my mentor Hillary Clinton's book, and 182 00:08:48,716 --> 00:08:50,636 Speaker 3: she wrote in there like that she makes a new 183 00:08:50,636 --> 00:08:53,916 Speaker 3: friend every year, and I was like, really, like if 184 00:08:53,996 --> 00:08:56,596 Speaker 3: Hillary can make a new friend every year, then I 185 00:08:56,636 --> 00:08:58,156 Speaker 3: should be able to make a new friend, you know 186 00:08:58,196 --> 00:09:00,636 Speaker 3: what I mean? Every year. So that was a big 187 00:09:00,676 --> 00:09:01,516 Speaker 3: eye opener for me. 188 00:09:02,116 --> 00:09:03,676 Speaker 2: Let me ask you a quick question. When you say 189 00:09:03,676 --> 00:09:05,956 Speaker 2: you keep it tight, Like what is that number? I'm 190 00:09:05,956 --> 00:09:08,156 Speaker 2: just curious, like is that three? Is that ten? 191 00:09:08,596 --> 00:09:12,716 Speaker 3: Like under it's under I would say it's under under seven, 192 00:09:12,916 --> 00:09:13,396 Speaker 3: under eight. 193 00:09:14,196 --> 00:09:16,316 Speaker 1: All of Rushman's friends listening right now are like, they're like, 194 00:09:16,316 --> 00:09:17,516 Speaker 1: am I one of the seventh. 195 00:09:28,636 --> 00:09:30,956 Speaker 2: I think that there are many different types of friendship 196 00:09:30,996 --> 00:09:33,796 Speaker 2: maybe more than people say, Like I think sometimes it's 197 00:09:33,836 --> 00:09:35,836 Speaker 2: like are you friends or are you not friends? Or 198 00:09:35,916 --> 00:09:38,156 Speaker 2: it's interesting, Rushman, you were saying you'd have your tight 199 00:09:38,236 --> 00:09:41,516 Speaker 2: close friends and then you have your acquaintances. And to 200 00:09:41,556 --> 00:09:43,636 Speaker 2: me it seems like maybe it's good to think about 201 00:09:43,676 --> 00:09:46,676 Speaker 2: different categories, all of whom maybe add to our life 202 00:09:46,716 --> 00:09:48,796 Speaker 2: in a different way. And also, like you say, have 203 00:09:48,836 --> 00:09:53,436 Speaker 2: different levels of responsibility and like intimacy that we bring 204 00:09:53,476 --> 00:09:54,956 Speaker 2: to it and that we expect from it. But they 205 00:09:54,956 --> 00:09:56,796 Speaker 2: can all add to our lives. But before we get 206 00:09:56,796 --> 00:09:58,756 Speaker 2: into sort of our own colloquial sense of all these 207 00:09:58,796 --> 00:10:01,836 Speaker 2: different kinds of friends, Laurie, what is the research showing 208 00:10:01,876 --> 00:10:04,716 Speaker 2: about types of friendship as we're thinking this through? 209 00:10:04,916 --> 00:10:07,116 Speaker 1: Yeah, what's the science say? I mean, I guess a 210 00:10:07,116 --> 00:10:08,836 Speaker 1: couple of things. I mean, one is, what the science 211 00:10:08,836 --> 00:10:11,556 Speaker 1: really clearly shows is that like any kind of social 212 00:10:11,596 --> 00:10:14,956 Speaker 1: connections go right. I mean, just like, yeah, these at 213 00:10:14,996 --> 00:10:17,196 Speaker 1: the coffee shop, chat with the person on the train, 214 00:10:17,356 --> 00:10:19,676 Speaker 1: all of that's good, right, And so I think overall, 215 00:10:19,716 --> 00:10:21,956 Speaker 1: what the research is trying to do is to categorize 216 00:10:21,996 --> 00:10:26,036 Speaker 1: those forms of social connection, and so often researchers break 217 00:10:26,116 --> 00:10:28,356 Speaker 1: up different kinds of ways that we could connect to 218 00:10:28,396 --> 00:10:30,836 Speaker 1: other people in terms of three different categories. They call 219 00:10:30,916 --> 00:10:34,436 Speaker 1: them intimate kind of friendships, relational friends, and sort of 220 00:10:34,476 --> 00:10:37,876 Speaker 1: communal friends. And so the intimate one it doesn't mean 221 00:10:37,916 --> 00:10:40,476 Speaker 1: like intimate in a like romantic intimate sets. It means 222 00:10:40,556 --> 00:10:43,876 Speaker 1: kind of I think what Russima is getting at your 223 00:10:43,996 --> 00:10:49,636 Speaker 1: crew like share everything exactly right. The relational friends are 224 00:10:49,636 --> 00:10:51,516 Speaker 1: the ones that you like do stuff with, you know, 225 00:10:51,556 --> 00:10:53,356 Speaker 1: so you might like grab a glass of wine, you 226 00:10:53,436 --> 00:10:55,756 Speaker 1: might go see a movie, and it's like a one 227 00:10:55,796 --> 00:10:58,316 Speaker 1: on one thing. But they're not the three am call 228 00:10:58,436 --> 00:11:00,796 Speaker 1: in the same way, Gretchen, I think this is what 229 00:11:00,796 --> 00:11:02,516 Speaker 1: you're getting at when you were saying that, like when 230 00:11:02,516 --> 00:11:04,356 Speaker 1: your kids move away, you realize a lot of people 231 00:11:04,356 --> 00:11:07,956 Speaker 1: are in that relational category, but maybe not the intimate category. Right. 232 00:11:08,356 --> 00:11:10,436 Speaker 1: But there's another I mean that I think we often forget, 233 00:11:10,436 --> 00:11:13,236 Speaker 1: which is a sort of communal or kind of community friends. 234 00:11:13,596 --> 00:11:16,156 Speaker 1: And these is like your book club, like the crew 235 00:11:16,156 --> 00:11:20,196 Speaker 1: of people you go to pilates with, or your church group. Right, 236 00:11:20,236 --> 00:11:22,756 Speaker 1: Like this is like a parents in your appearents in 237 00:11:22,876 --> 00:11:25,076 Speaker 1: like your kid's class, like the soccer moms that you 238 00:11:25,156 --> 00:11:27,516 Speaker 1: see like you know on the field, right, and those 239 00:11:27,516 --> 00:11:29,756 Speaker 1: are sometimes the people that we can see most often, 240 00:11:29,796 --> 00:11:32,396 Speaker 1: depending on what those like community events are, they might 241 00:11:32,396 --> 00:11:35,516 Speaker 1: be our most frequent other friends. And they're really good 242 00:11:35,516 --> 00:11:38,156 Speaker 1: for kind of having these shared values and these shared activities. 243 00:11:38,356 --> 00:11:40,636 Speaker 1: But again they're a little bit different than the other ones. 244 00:11:40,636 --> 00:11:42,476 Speaker 1: You might not with the soccer mom unless you take 245 00:11:42,516 --> 00:11:44,436 Speaker 1: it to a new level. It's definitely not gonna be 246 00:11:44,436 --> 00:11:46,236 Speaker 1: a three am call, but it might not even be 247 00:11:46,276 --> 00:11:47,236 Speaker 1: the go to the movie together. 248 00:11:47,396 --> 00:11:50,596 Speaker 2: But it could be the first step toward an intimate friends. 249 00:11:50,716 --> 00:11:53,956 Speaker 2: It could be a starter. It might have the capacity 250 00:11:54,196 --> 00:11:56,636 Speaker 2: or the possibility of going further. Even if it's not. 251 00:11:56,756 --> 00:11:58,276 Speaker 2: Then if you want to build a friend, like Rushma 252 00:11:58,316 --> 00:12:00,516 Speaker 2: is saying it's hard to make new friends, maybe that's 253 00:12:00,556 --> 00:12:01,436 Speaker 2: a place to find new. 254 00:12:01,436 --> 00:12:03,516 Speaker 1: Friends, totally right, because you have to have some sort 255 00:12:03,556 --> 00:12:06,396 Speaker 1: of connection with people to like move them from the categories. 256 00:12:06,716 --> 00:12:09,396 Speaker 1: And I think it just takes some work. Right, You 257 00:12:09,436 --> 00:12:11,556 Speaker 1: have to be on the soccer field with the mom 258 00:12:11,636 --> 00:12:13,036 Speaker 1: and be like, hey, do you want to get a 259 00:12:13,116 --> 00:12:15,716 Speaker 1: coffee later outside the soccer field, or do you want 260 00:12:15,756 --> 00:12:18,156 Speaker 1: to like go get a movie or share something together? 261 00:12:18,636 --> 00:12:21,116 Speaker 1: And again that feels vulnerable, like it feels scary to 262 00:12:21,156 --> 00:12:23,356 Speaker 1: almost ask like because the person I like no, or 263 00:12:23,396 --> 00:12:25,436 Speaker 1: I don't have time, and you'll just feel like I 264 00:12:25,476 --> 00:12:26,156 Speaker 1: got rejected. 265 00:12:26,356 --> 00:12:28,356 Speaker 3: Laurie, where does your work friends go? Because that's the 266 00:12:28,436 --> 00:12:30,876 Speaker 3: other thing I've found, Like, I'm a workaholic, so I 267 00:12:31,036 --> 00:12:33,636 Speaker 3: find that my work friends are now like my best friend. 268 00:12:33,756 --> 00:12:36,556 Speaker 3: My always teases me, is like, it doesn't count if 269 00:12:36,556 --> 00:12:37,036 Speaker 3: you pay them. 270 00:12:37,636 --> 00:12:40,676 Speaker 1: Yeah, oh yeah, it's tricky. No, I think. I think 271 00:12:40,836 --> 00:12:43,316 Speaker 1: I think work friends can be in any of these categories. Right. 272 00:12:43,356 --> 00:12:44,796 Speaker 1: You know, to take the work friend that like you 273 00:12:44,876 --> 00:12:46,916 Speaker 1: all go to the softball game together, right, that might 274 00:12:47,076 --> 00:12:50,196 Speaker 1: feel very communal. Right, if it's a work friend that 275 00:12:50,196 --> 00:12:51,876 Speaker 1: you occasionally go out to get a drink for, but 276 00:12:51,956 --> 00:12:54,316 Speaker 1: they don't really know any of your real intimate life 277 00:12:54,436 --> 00:12:57,156 Speaker 1: or your big secrets, right, that would probably be more relational. 278 00:12:57,596 --> 00:12:59,996 Speaker 1: But there are definitely work friends that are the rider 279 00:13:00,196 --> 00:13:02,836 Speaker 1: die besties that hear you know all this stuff. I 280 00:13:03,196 --> 00:13:05,996 Speaker 1: definitely have had work friends that are my three am call, right. 281 00:13:05,916 --> 00:13:07,996 Speaker 2: And so I'm not sure that I think that those 282 00:13:08,036 --> 00:13:11,396 Speaker 2: three categories are very very helpful because it almost makes 283 00:13:11,436 --> 00:13:13,476 Speaker 2: them feel like they're in a hierarchy. But I feel 284 00:13:13,516 --> 00:13:15,396 Speaker 2: like it's almost more helpful to think about them as 285 00:13:15,476 --> 00:13:17,716 Speaker 2: types of friends or the role they play like a 286 00:13:17,916 --> 00:13:21,796 Speaker 2: childhood friend. Yeah, they know us in a way, they 287 00:13:21,916 --> 00:13:25,276 Speaker 2: know our parents, they know our childhood dog, you know, 288 00:13:25,436 --> 00:13:27,396 Speaker 2: even if now we're very poor part of than them 289 00:13:27,436 --> 00:13:30,196 Speaker 2: in life. There's something about the childhood friends, Laurie, you 290 00:13:30,276 --> 00:13:33,116 Speaker 2: mentioned the couple's friends, where you know you can go 291 00:13:33,156 --> 00:13:34,836 Speaker 2: out on a double date. There's sort of a special 292 00:13:34,916 --> 00:13:38,076 Speaker 2: kind of thing if you travel with people, and that's 293 00:13:38,156 --> 00:13:40,116 Speaker 2: maybe not even that they're so intimate, but you would 294 00:13:40,196 --> 00:13:43,916 Speaker 2: travel in the same way people that you know online. 295 00:13:44,716 --> 00:13:47,556 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, does that count, like if you haven't met 296 00:13:47,596 --> 00:13:49,236 Speaker 2: people in real life, or like people that you've only 297 00:13:49,236 --> 00:13:52,796 Speaker 2: seen on zoom you guys, I mean what about parasocial relationships? 298 00:13:52,836 --> 00:13:55,316 Speaker 2: I mean, I bet you will have people who consider 299 00:13:55,436 --> 00:13:58,396 Speaker 2: you their paro social friends. Plus I do, and then 300 00:13:58,436 --> 00:14:00,756 Speaker 2: I also have my own parasocial friends and people who 301 00:14:00,876 --> 00:14:03,876 Speaker 2: I listen to. So I don't know. I mean, what 302 00:14:04,036 --> 00:14:05,316 Speaker 2: other kinds of friends am I missing? 303 00:14:05,516 --> 00:14:05,556 Speaker 3: No? 304 00:14:05,676 --> 00:14:07,276 Speaker 1: I mean, I think I think you're totally right that 305 00:14:07,356 --> 00:14:09,996 Speaker 1: it's super complicated. Although push back on the idea that 306 00:14:10,036 --> 00:14:12,836 Speaker 1: those three categories I gave are hierarchical, I think we 307 00:14:12,956 --> 00:14:13,916 Speaker 1: kind of need all of them. 308 00:14:14,116 --> 00:14:15,356 Speaker 2: Right, that's true. 309 00:14:15,436 --> 00:14:17,836 Speaker 1: I definitely have been in situations and even during my 310 00:14:17,876 --> 00:14:19,916 Speaker 1: burnout situation, I would describe being in this where I 311 00:14:19,996 --> 00:14:22,436 Speaker 1: still had my intimate friends. I had my besties that 312 00:14:22,476 --> 00:14:24,476 Speaker 1: I would call at night, but I had nobody to 313 00:14:24,516 --> 00:14:26,556 Speaker 1: go to yoga class with and nobody to go for 314 00:14:26,636 --> 00:14:27,076 Speaker 1: a walk with. 315 00:14:27,516 --> 00:14:30,716 Speaker 2: It has to go with near friends and far friends. 316 00:14:30,716 --> 00:14:33,116 Speaker 2: And this is what you're talking about, is what about 317 00:14:33,156 --> 00:14:36,196 Speaker 2: when somebody who was a near friend then becomes a 318 00:14:36,316 --> 00:14:39,116 Speaker 2: far friend. Well, then that completely changes the energy of 319 00:14:39,156 --> 00:14:39,916 Speaker 2: the relationship. 320 00:14:40,436 --> 00:14:42,996 Speaker 3: Well, this is why I like your category story because 321 00:14:42,996 --> 00:14:45,196 Speaker 3: it made me feel almost like better, right, Like, I 322 00:14:45,236 --> 00:14:47,196 Speaker 3: think one of the things that I've had to contend 323 00:14:47,236 --> 00:14:50,236 Speaker 3: with in midlife is that it's okay a friendship shift. 324 00:14:50,876 --> 00:14:53,916 Speaker 3: They don't have to be somebody who's your intimate friend 325 00:14:53,956 --> 00:14:55,956 Speaker 3: has to be your intimate friend forever. They can then 326 00:14:56,356 --> 00:14:59,156 Speaker 3: become your relational friend. And that's that doesn't mean that 327 00:14:59,236 --> 00:15:02,156 Speaker 3: you failed because I think for women in particular, because 328 00:15:02,196 --> 00:15:06,116 Speaker 3: we take our friendship so seriously, is that it's very 329 00:15:06,436 --> 00:15:09,996 Speaker 3: hard when they fall apart in your life, I feel 330 00:15:10,036 --> 00:15:13,276 Speaker 3: like I did something wrong or I should have tried harder. 331 00:15:13,876 --> 00:15:16,836 Speaker 3: And it's it's different because It's unlike your parents, like, 332 00:15:17,156 --> 00:15:20,076 Speaker 3: no matter what, you're stuck with them, right, or your siblings, right, 333 00:15:20,116 --> 00:15:23,636 Speaker 3: it doesn't matter obligation, what happens to them, whether they 334 00:15:23,836 --> 00:15:26,396 Speaker 3: turn into an alcoholic or become a raging bitch or 335 00:15:26,516 --> 00:15:28,236 Speaker 3: like you know, I mean didn't get this, like you're 336 00:15:28,396 --> 00:15:31,836 Speaker 3: like stuck with them. Whereas for friendships, especially as you 337 00:15:31,916 --> 00:15:33,996 Speaker 3: get older, I think people realize, well, I don't have 338 00:15:34,156 --> 00:15:36,876 Speaker 3: to be in this toxic relationship, like I don't have 339 00:15:37,116 --> 00:15:37,516 Speaker 3: to do this. 340 00:15:37,796 --> 00:15:40,996 Speaker 2: Have you managed severe strife in a friendship yourself, Freshena. 341 00:15:41,476 --> 00:15:44,716 Speaker 3: I mean, most recently I've had to contend with the 342 00:15:44,796 --> 00:15:49,276 Speaker 3: potential breakup, which is the first time that's ever happened. No, yeah, 343 00:15:49,676 --> 00:15:52,436 Speaker 3: it's never happened to me before. But I think part 344 00:15:52,476 --> 00:15:55,396 Speaker 3: of without going into the details, right, but part of 345 00:15:55,476 --> 00:15:59,316 Speaker 3: what I think I realized is that it's okay and 346 00:15:59,436 --> 00:16:04,076 Speaker 3: that sometimes people are going through things and you got 347 00:16:04,236 --> 00:16:06,836 Speaker 3: to allow there to be some distance and that doesn't 348 00:16:06,836 --> 00:16:11,316 Speaker 3: mean it's forever, and that's okay. You know, I think 349 00:16:11,356 --> 00:16:12,956 Speaker 3: for a lot of us as women, we carry a 350 00:16:12,996 --> 00:16:15,316 Speaker 3: lot of regret, and we carry a lot of envy, 351 00:16:15,756 --> 00:16:17,836 Speaker 3: a lot of what a should a kodas you know, 352 00:16:17,876 --> 00:16:20,396 Speaker 3: and I think the older you get, you realize that, well, 353 00:16:20,436 --> 00:16:23,036 Speaker 3: that might not happen for me. And I think that 354 00:16:23,196 --> 00:16:28,316 Speaker 3: that oftentimes breathes a lot of anger. And I think 355 00:16:28,396 --> 00:16:31,356 Speaker 3: that a lot of people are struggling, as my monk 356 00:16:31,396 --> 00:16:33,516 Speaker 3: would say, like a lot of people are really suffering. 357 00:16:34,516 --> 00:16:38,556 Speaker 3: And friendships used to be the way you healed, right, 358 00:16:38,676 --> 00:16:40,436 Speaker 3: Like you remember that when you would go through a 359 00:16:40,476 --> 00:16:43,356 Speaker 3: breakup and you'd be like devastated and you just had 360 00:16:43,436 --> 00:16:45,196 Speaker 3: to sit in a room with your girlfriends and like 361 00:16:45,356 --> 00:16:47,236 Speaker 3: drink a lot of wine and eat a lot of 362 00:16:47,276 --> 00:16:49,196 Speaker 3: bad food and just cry and watch a movie and 363 00:16:49,356 --> 00:16:52,036 Speaker 3: like it just after a week of doing that, you were, 364 00:16:52,116 --> 00:16:57,236 Speaker 3: like you felt better. That's just it's just harder to 365 00:16:57,436 --> 00:17:00,356 Speaker 3: do that these days because of all the commitments that 366 00:17:00,436 --> 00:17:03,316 Speaker 3: you have in your life to really use friendship as 367 00:17:03,396 --> 00:17:05,596 Speaker 3: a tool of healing. Well. 368 00:17:05,676 --> 00:17:07,796 Speaker 2: So maybe that's a good point, which is that we 369 00:17:07,996 --> 00:17:11,956 Speaker 2: have to acknowledge that friendship looks different at different stages 370 00:17:12,036 --> 00:17:14,276 Speaker 2: of life and not and again not feel like a 371 00:17:14,396 --> 00:17:16,796 Speaker 2: failure if it doesn't look the way that it used 372 00:17:16,836 --> 00:17:18,796 Speaker 2: to look. You know, if you're not staying up until 373 00:17:18,916 --> 00:17:22,836 Speaker 2: two am talking heart to heart with somebody that doesn't 374 00:17:22,876 --> 00:17:25,556 Speaker 2: mean that they're not a real, true intimate friend the 375 00:17:25,636 --> 00:17:26,476 Speaker 2: way they might have been. 376 00:17:26,876 --> 00:17:29,356 Speaker 1: Although I think we also have to get other people's 377 00:17:29,436 --> 00:17:33,076 Speaker 1: definitions of friends, because some of my friendship strife throughout 378 00:17:33,116 --> 00:17:35,876 Speaker 1: the years has been realizing that, like we're just on 379 00:17:35,996 --> 00:17:39,316 Speaker 1: a different page with how we're defining friendship. Like like 380 00:17:39,396 --> 00:17:41,316 Speaker 1: what like, So I had th very close friends still 381 00:17:41,316 --> 00:17:43,396 Speaker 1: my very close friend. I won't use names, but she'll 382 00:17:43,436 --> 00:17:46,716 Speaker 1: know I'm talking about her who lived near me in 383 00:17:46,836 --> 00:17:49,276 Speaker 1: New Haven, like worked mirror me at yea. We were like, 384 00:17:49,436 --> 00:17:52,276 Speaker 1: you know, bestie's bestie's tight, and for lots of reasons, 385 00:17:52,316 --> 00:17:54,956 Speaker 1: she wound up taking a job really far away. And 386 00:17:55,396 --> 00:17:57,676 Speaker 1: you know, I was not just sad that my friend 387 00:17:57,796 --> 00:18:00,436 Speaker 1: was moving away for all the reasons. I felt devastated, 388 00:18:00,556 --> 00:18:02,196 Speaker 1: Like I felt like there was like a break to 389 00:18:02,276 --> 00:18:04,236 Speaker 1: the friendship. And she couldn't understand this. 390 00:18:04,236 --> 00:18:06,996 Speaker 2: Shop like you felt betrayed almost that she took the job. 391 00:18:07,196 --> 00:18:08,876 Speaker 1: That she took a job, and I knew the job 392 00:18:08,996 --> 00:18:10,796 Speaker 1: was right for her. It was like it was totally 393 00:18:10,876 --> 00:18:13,876 Speaker 1: the right move, but I had this special sense of betrayal. 394 00:18:14,116 --> 00:18:16,596 Speaker 1: And it was only through like a long conversation where 395 00:18:16,636 --> 00:18:20,196 Speaker 1: we realized she was like, oh, wait, like, definitional to 396 00:18:20,316 --> 00:18:23,316 Speaker 1: your idea of our friendship is that we hang out 397 00:18:23,396 --> 00:18:26,356 Speaker 1: in person, see each other at our house, eat meals together, 398 00:18:26,556 --> 00:18:28,836 Speaker 1: walk her dog together. And she was like, that's not 399 00:18:29,276 --> 00:18:31,436 Speaker 1: in my definition. Our friendship will be just as good 400 00:18:31,476 --> 00:18:33,436 Speaker 1: as friends if we do all that same stuff on 401 00:18:33,556 --> 00:18:35,716 Speaker 1: the phone or over zoom or once a month. And 402 00:18:35,876 --> 00:18:38,276 Speaker 1: that conversation I think really helped both of us because 403 00:18:38,276 --> 00:18:40,916 Speaker 1: it was like, Oh, under your definition, this isn't a 404 00:18:40,996 --> 00:18:43,476 Speaker 1: friend breakup to you in the same way it's sort 405 00:18:43,516 --> 00:18:46,596 Speaker 1: of feeling to me. And that just caused me to realize, like, oh, 406 00:18:46,676 --> 00:18:49,316 Speaker 1: we all have these different definitions, like you know, if 407 00:18:49,316 --> 00:18:51,716 Speaker 1: you don't maybe your definition was like, if you don't 408 00:18:51,716 --> 00:18:54,796 Speaker 1: spend your birthday with me, then we're not a good friend. 409 00:18:54,996 --> 00:18:56,516 Speaker 1: Or if like you know, if we don't give gifts 410 00:18:56,516 --> 00:18:59,236 Speaker 1: to each other at Christmas or we don't celebrate our kids' birthdays. 411 00:18:59,276 --> 00:19:02,436 Speaker 1: I think we all have these kind of deep seated, 412 00:19:02,916 --> 00:19:05,756 Speaker 1: intricate ideas of what matters for friendships that we haven't 413 00:19:05,756 --> 00:19:08,716 Speaker 1: told our friends. So our friends sometimes wind up violating 414 00:19:08,796 --> 00:19:10,796 Speaker 1: these that without realizing they're doing. 415 00:19:10,916 --> 00:19:13,716 Speaker 3: That is a really good point and like life maturity, right, 416 00:19:13,756 --> 00:19:16,356 Speaker 3: because I think as you grow, you have more responsibilities. 417 00:19:16,356 --> 00:19:17,556 Speaker 3: You got to take care of your kids, or if 418 00:19:17,556 --> 00:19:19,556 Speaker 3: you have a partner, or if you have like a 419 00:19:19,796 --> 00:19:22,756 Speaker 3: challenging job. So it's like the time that you can 420 00:19:22,876 --> 00:19:25,956 Speaker 3: spend is just different. And I think for some people, 421 00:19:26,116 --> 00:19:28,716 Speaker 3: like for me, I judge quality of time rather than 422 00:19:28,836 --> 00:19:30,636 Speaker 3: like the length of time. I'm going on a girl's 423 00:19:30,676 --> 00:19:33,076 Speaker 3: trip with one of my friends tomorrow, who like lives 424 00:19:33,076 --> 00:19:35,876 Speaker 3: in Atlanta, and maybe we talk on that we see 425 00:19:35,876 --> 00:19:37,676 Speaker 3: each other three times a year, but she is my 426 00:19:37,916 --> 00:19:40,796 Speaker 3: best friend, right and we know that we're going to 427 00:19:40,836 --> 00:19:43,316 Speaker 3: get together for forty eight hours and like it's going 428 00:19:43,356 --> 00:19:45,916 Speaker 3: to feel like we spent a year together. And like 429 00:19:46,076 --> 00:19:48,476 Speaker 3: those are a lot of like you know, the relationships 430 00:19:48,516 --> 00:19:49,876 Speaker 3: that I have in my life where I don't have 431 00:19:49,996 --> 00:19:52,916 Speaker 3: to spend all of this time, But it's the quality 432 00:19:52,996 --> 00:19:56,076 Speaker 3: of time we're together. We're like super into each other 433 00:19:56,116 --> 00:19:58,756 Speaker 3: and super engage and just not like nothing's changed. 434 00:19:59,796 --> 00:20:02,316 Speaker 2: I would say that I think scheduling is the biggest 435 00:20:02,396 --> 00:20:05,916 Speaker 2: obstacle in my life to friendship, which is just the 436 00:20:06,196 --> 00:20:11,596 Speaker 2: sheer new sense of are you free? Okay, maybe you 437 00:20:11,676 --> 00:20:13,596 Speaker 2: live in another country, are you free that I can 438 00:20:13,636 --> 00:20:15,556 Speaker 2: call you while I'm on a call in Central Park 439 00:20:15,596 --> 00:20:17,756 Speaker 2: and we can talk by phone. Yes, okay, what we 440 00:20:17,836 --> 00:20:19,516 Speaker 2: got to manage the time? Oh, we want to go 441 00:20:19,596 --> 00:20:22,676 Speaker 2: into Atlanta on a girls trip. I can't do this weekend. 442 00:20:22,716 --> 00:20:24,956 Speaker 2: What about that week? I no, this week? Oh turns 443 00:20:24,996 --> 00:20:26,796 Speaker 2: out I can't. Can we move it back a week? No, 444 00:20:26,916 --> 00:20:27,276 Speaker 2: we can't. 445 00:20:27,436 --> 00:20:30,596 Speaker 1: Gresh and it's like, you're in my DMS right now. No, 446 00:20:31,476 --> 00:20:36,676 Speaker 1: I'm turning fifty years old this year. Yeah, but maybe 447 00:20:36,716 --> 00:20:38,316 Speaker 1: you're going through the same thing, Rushma, which is like 448 00:20:38,516 --> 00:20:40,596 Speaker 1: my college friends, Like I have this whole coolhor of 449 00:20:40,636 --> 00:20:43,356 Speaker 1: friends who are also turning fifty, and we're like, wouldn't 450 00:20:43,356 --> 00:20:45,236 Speaker 1: it be great if we can have you a fifty 451 00:20:45,396 --> 00:20:48,636 Speaker 1: birthday party all together, and literally our whole DM is like, 452 00:20:48,836 --> 00:20:51,356 Speaker 1: what about June? No, my in laws are coming in June. 453 00:20:51,476 --> 00:20:52,236 Speaker 1: Like I can't do it. 454 00:20:52,356 --> 00:20:53,676 Speaker 3: It's like, oh my gosh. 455 00:20:54,156 --> 00:20:56,356 Speaker 1: And then you just give up. You're like, yes, that's 456 00:20:56,396 --> 00:20:58,316 Speaker 1: exactly what's happened in my group. BED is like no 457 00:20:58,396 --> 00:21:00,556 Speaker 1: one's replied for like the last fourties, and I think 458 00:21:00,596 --> 00:21:02,156 Speaker 1: we're all just like I was like, oh my god. 459 00:21:02,436 --> 00:21:16,316 Speaker 2: Okay, okay. Now speaking of the question of understanding friends 460 00:21:16,356 --> 00:21:19,636 Speaker 2: and maybe holding grace when people bring a different set 461 00:21:19,676 --> 00:21:23,876 Speaker 2: of expectations or different understandings. Okay, so my four tendencies framework, 462 00:21:24,076 --> 00:21:27,996 Speaker 2: which is a personality framework that divides people into upholder's, questioners, obligers, 463 00:21:28,036 --> 00:21:29,916 Speaker 2: and rebels, and it has to do with whether you 464 00:21:30,076 --> 00:21:33,836 Speaker 2: meet or resist outer in inner expectations, outer expectations like 465 00:21:33,836 --> 00:21:37,556 Speaker 2: a work deadline, inner expectations like your own desire to 466 00:21:37,596 --> 00:21:39,836 Speaker 2: keep a near's resolution. And I'm just going to go 467 00:21:39,876 --> 00:21:41,596 Speaker 2: through this super fast. If people want to know more 468 00:21:41,596 --> 00:21:43,396 Speaker 2: about it, they can just go to Gretchenreuben dot com 469 00:21:43,516 --> 00:21:45,636 Speaker 2: slash quiz and take the quiz and find out if 470 00:21:45,636 --> 00:21:48,516 Speaker 2: they're an upholder, a questioner, obliger, rebel. Learn all about it. 471 00:21:49,156 --> 00:21:52,276 Speaker 2: But just for this, just the nutshell version is upholders 472 00:21:52,316 --> 00:21:55,036 Speaker 2: readily meet outer and inner expectations, so they meet the 473 00:21:55,076 --> 00:21:58,756 Speaker 2: work deadline, they keep the New Year's resolution without much fuss. Reshma, 474 00:21:58,836 --> 00:22:00,516 Speaker 2: I know you're an upholder and I'm an a polder. 475 00:22:00,556 --> 00:22:03,996 Speaker 2: We're a small group, small but mighty. A bigger group 476 00:22:04,116 --> 00:22:07,556 Speaker 2: is questioners. Questioners question all expectations. They'll do something if 477 00:22:07,596 --> 00:22:09,636 Speaker 2: they think it makes sense, So they're turning everything into 478 00:22:09,676 --> 00:22:12,716 Speaker 2: an inner expectation, so they have to know why. But 479 00:22:12,836 --> 00:22:14,716 Speaker 2: if they know why and they understand why they can 480 00:22:14,796 --> 00:22:17,916 Speaker 2: do something. Then there are obligers. This is the biggest 481 00:22:18,036 --> 00:22:19,876 Speaker 2: group of people for both men and women. This is 482 00:22:19,996 --> 00:22:23,836 Speaker 2: the largest group, Laurie, you are proud member of Team Obliger. 483 00:22:24,036 --> 00:22:26,916 Speaker 2: Obligers readily meet outer expectations, but they struggle to meet 484 00:22:26,956 --> 00:22:29,316 Speaker 2: inner expectations. So they're really good at keeping their promises 485 00:22:29,356 --> 00:22:31,596 Speaker 2: to other people, but they struggle to keep their promises 486 00:22:31,636 --> 00:22:34,436 Speaker 2: to themselves unless they have that outer accountability. And then 487 00:22:34,516 --> 00:22:38,356 Speaker 2: finally rebels. Rebels resist all expectations out an inner alike. 488 00:22:38,476 --> 00:22:40,396 Speaker 2: So these are the people who can do anything they 489 00:22:40,516 --> 00:22:43,596 Speaker 2: want to do anything they choose to do, but if 490 00:22:43,636 --> 00:22:47,036 Speaker 2: you ask or tell them to do something, they will resist. 491 00:22:47,236 --> 00:22:49,596 Speaker 2: And typically they don't sell themselves what to do, so 492 00:22:49,716 --> 00:22:52,476 Speaker 2: they don't like put anything on the calendar. And the 493 00:22:52,556 --> 00:22:54,436 Speaker 2: reason why I think the four tendencies is helpful for 494 00:22:54,516 --> 00:22:57,076 Speaker 2: friendship is that I found that now that I understand 495 00:22:57,116 --> 00:23:01,036 Speaker 2: the four tendancies, I'm much more understanding of how different 496 00:23:01,156 --> 00:23:05,916 Speaker 2: people are different and bring a different energy into relationships. 497 00:23:05,956 --> 00:23:08,556 Speaker 2: For instance, rebels often don't like to put something on 498 00:23:08,596 --> 00:23:11,276 Speaker 2: the calendar. It makes them feel trapped. They don't like it. 499 00:23:11,396 --> 00:23:13,036 Speaker 2: So I had a rebel friend who I would try 500 00:23:13,076 --> 00:23:14,596 Speaker 2: to say something like Hey, do you want to go 501 00:23:14,596 --> 00:23:16,556 Speaker 2: to a movie on Friday? And she would always just 502 00:23:16,676 --> 00:23:19,676 Speaker 2: be really evasive. I'd be like, Oh, there's this great play, 503 00:23:20,076 --> 00:23:21,996 Speaker 2: do you want to see it? And I'm like, does 504 00:23:22,076 --> 00:23:23,996 Speaker 2: this person not really like me because they don't want 505 00:23:23,996 --> 00:23:25,676 Speaker 2: to commit to me? But then I'm like, know, now 506 00:23:25,716 --> 00:23:27,316 Speaker 2: that I know she's a rebel, it's much better to 507 00:23:27,316 --> 00:23:29,196 Speaker 2: say something last minute, like Hey, I'm going to be 508 00:23:29,236 --> 00:23:31,076 Speaker 2: in your neighborhood. If you're going to be around on 509 00:23:31,156 --> 00:23:33,036 Speaker 2: Saturday afternoon you want to grab a coffee, you can 510 00:23:33,156 --> 00:23:35,276 Speaker 2: let me know. I'll just text you when I mean 511 00:23:35,396 --> 00:23:38,156 Speaker 2: I'm outside your door, because then it's spontaneous and she 512 00:23:38,196 --> 00:23:40,916 Speaker 2: can do whatever she wants. But so that helped me 513 00:23:41,116 --> 00:23:44,596 Speaker 2: understand how not to be angry or resentful when people 514 00:23:44,636 --> 00:23:46,396 Speaker 2: behaved in a certain way. So I don't know, as 515 00:23:46,436 --> 00:23:48,916 Speaker 2: an obliger or an upholder, have you seen how this 516 00:23:49,116 --> 00:23:52,316 Speaker 2: might cause conflict or explain things that you've. 517 00:23:52,156 --> 00:23:54,356 Speaker 3: Experienced for the rection, Am I more likely to have 518 00:23:54,436 --> 00:23:57,396 Speaker 3: a better relationship with someone who is just like me 519 00:23:57,596 --> 00:23:58,636 Speaker 3: and a polder? Or No? 520 00:23:59,076 --> 00:24:04,716 Speaker 2: Probably? Yeah, right, because because it's like you just no, 521 00:24:04,836 --> 00:24:08,076 Speaker 2: But obliger just get along with everybody. Obligerent type, they 522 00:24:08,116 --> 00:24:10,756 Speaker 2: are the ones that get the best with all three tendencies. 523 00:24:10,836 --> 00:24:13,996 Speaker 1: Yes, except I think except you know, I've always like 524 00:24:14,476 --> 00:24:17,396 Speaker 1: wondered about, you know, the like scientific efficacy of the 525 00:24:17,516 --> 00:24:18,116 Speaker 1: four tendans. 526 00:24:18,316 --> 00:24:21,876 Speaker 2: Sure, I know, and Annie Murphy Paul who studies personality frameworks. 527 00:24:21,996 --> 00:24:24,876 Speaker 1: Yes, but there is deep truth into one part of 528 00:24:24,956 --> 00:24:28,236 Speaker 1: the obliger personality type that you've talked about, which is 529 00:24:28,276 --> 00:24:32,316 Speaker 1: this phenomena that you've called obliger rebellion, which is when 530 00:24:32,356 --> 00:24:35,436 Speaker 1: the obligers have too many external demands on our time, 531 00:24:35,636 --> 00:24:40,276 Speaker 1: sometimes they're just like f it, I'm giving up on everything. Yes, 532 00:24:40,396 --> 00:24:43,836 Speaker 1: and definitely I have been in that mode before. And 533 00:24:44,156 --> 00:24:46,956 Speaker 1: the sad thing is like, sometimes what has to give 534 00:24:47,156 --> 00:24:49,716 Speaker 1: is stuff with my friends for which I'm really embarrassed, 535 00:24:49,796 --> 00:24:51,796 Speaker 1: right Like I'm kind of like, oh my gosh, I'm 536 00:24:51,836 --> 00:24:55,196 Speaker 1: overwhelmed for everything. But I don't, you know, quit my 537 00:24:55,276 --> 00:24:57,836 Speaker 1: podcasting job or not show up for my teaching gig. 538 00:24:58,196 --> 00:25:00,156 Speaker 1: But that yoga session I was going to have with 539 00:25:00,236 --> 00:25:02,436 Speaker 1: a friend, Hey, can we do that another time? I'll 540 00:25:02,436 --> 00:25:04,156 Speaker 1: switch it up. Or that call that I know I 541 00:25:04,276 --> 00:25:05,596 Speaker 1: was going to put out for a friend who was 542 00:25:05,636 --> 00:25:08,196 Speaker 1: grieving that kind of falls by the wayside. 543 00:25:08,396 --> 00:25:08,996 Speaker 3: That's interesting. 544 00:25:09,316 --> 00:25:11,356 Speaker 2: And I think this is a perfect example. If I'm 545 00:25:11,356 --> 00:25:13,196 Speaker 2: your friend and I know you're obliger, and I see 546 00:25:13,276 --> 00:25:16,236 Speaker 2: obliged rebellion, I feel like the burning resentment and the 547 00:25:16,316 --> 00:25:19,676 Speaker 2: burnout and the overwhelmed happening. I can say things to 548 00:25:19,756 --> 00:25:21,756 Speaker 2: you so that you don't feel like I'm putting pressure 549 00:25:21,796 --> 00:25:25,956 Speaker 2: on you. Yes, exactly, you know, like, hey, you know 550 00:25:26,036 --> 00:25:27,756 Speaker 2: you've got so much going on. I know we talked 551 00:25:27,756 --> 00:25:29,716 Speaker 2: about doing it this weekend, but maybe we should push 552 00:25:29,756 --> 00:25:31,436 Speaker 2: it to next month when the dust settles. 553 00:25:31,636 --> 00:25:33,796 Speaker 1: Oh dredging you just saying that, I feel like then 554 00:25:33,836 --> 00:25:37,476 Speaker 1: weight on my chest was like that's great. Yeah, yeah, 555 00:25:37,556 --> 00:25:39,156 Speaker 1: because you don't feel like it's personal. 556 00:25:39,476 --> 00:25:41,356 Speaker 2: You don't feel like it's personal. 557 00:25:42,276 --> 00:25:45,076 Speaker 3: Yeah, And so for I think for an upholder, I 558 00:25:45,676 --> 00:25:48,076 Speaker 3: don't have those problems because I'm so disciplined and so 559 00:25:48,236 --> 00:25:51,316 Speaker 3: scheduled that I'm like, I immediately think it's personal. 560 00:25:53,356 --> 00:25:56,036 Speaker 2: Right, Like if you drop the ball on me, why 561 00:25:56,356 --> 00:25:57,876 Speaker 2: you must have chosen you must have not. 562 00:25:58,036 --> 00:25:59,916 Speaker 3: Thought that I was. You must have looked through your 563 00:25:59,996 --> 00:26:02,996 Speaker 3: calendar and like, well, she's not important, so I'm going 564 00:26:03,076 --> 00:26:03,676 Speaker 3: to cancel that. 565 00:26:04,076 --> 00:26:05,796 Speaker 2: Or if somebody if you say to a friend, oh, 566 00:26:05,796 --> 00:26:07,756 Speaker 2: well you know, I'm going to be free Saturday afternoon, 567 00:26:07,876 --> 00:26:10,516 Speaker 2: five weeks from now at two, and somebody's like, well, 568 00:26:10,636 --> 00:26:12,556 Speaker 2: I don't really want to commit, and you're like, what's 569 00:26:12,596 --> 00:26:15,356 Speaker 2: your problem. Let's put this on the calendar so that 570 00:26:15,436 --> 00:26:18,316 Speaker 2: it happens. If you're important to me and I'm important 571 00:26:18,356 --> 00:26:20,716 Speaker 2: to you, there's a place on the calendar for that. 572 00:26:20,836 --> 00:26:23,916 Speaker 2: And other people are like your bananas for scheduling out 573 00:26:23,996 --> 00:26:24,996 Speaker 2: your life. 574 00:26:25,236 --> 00:26:27,556 Speaker 1: You know, five weeks someone who's close friends with a 575 00:26:27,636 --> 00:26:29,276 Speaker 1: few different rebels that just. 576 00:26:29,516 --> 00:26:30,396 Speaker 2: Yeah, it doesn't work. 577 00:26:30,396 --> 00:26:32,796 Speaker 3: It doesn't work, don't work. Yeah, it doesn't work. So 578 00:26:32,916 --> 00:26:34,836 Speaker 3: I guess at midlife, though, should we just make friends 579 00:26:34,876 --> 00:26:36,196 Speaker 3: with people like us because it's easier. 580 00:26:36,636 --> 00:26:39,316 Speaker 1: No, you get so much out of friendships with people 581 00:26:39,316 --> 00:26:40,196 Speaker 1: who are different than you. 582 00:26:40,596 --> 00:26:42,356 Speaker 2: Well, and I'm married to a question and it's super 583 00:26:42,436 --> 00:26:44,316 Speaker 2: valuable because I always have his voice in my head 584 00:26:44,356 --> 00:26:45,996 Speaker 2: being like, why are you going to do that? Because 585 00:26:46,036 --> 00:26:49,316 Speaker 2: this is an upholder. My tendency is like okay, will 586 00:26:49,436 --> 00:26:52,116 Speaker 2: do And I think it gives you a grace for 587 00:26:52,276 --> 00:26:56,196 Speaker 2: understanding how people are just bringing a completely different perspective in. 588 00:26:57,116 --> 00:26:58,636 Speaker 2: So then the last thing I want to ask, and 589 00:26:58,756 --> 00:27:01,236 Speaker 2: this is a really fun question, which is do you 590 00:27:01,436 --> 00:27:05,156 Speaker 2: have a try this at home suggestion for listeners? Is 591 00:27:05,196 --> 00:27:06,996 Speaker 2: there something that a person could do as part of 592 00:27:07,036 --> 00:27:12,436 Speaker 2: their ordinary day to either deep in existing friendships or 593 00:27:12,996 --> 00:27:15,596 Speaker 2: build towards new friendships because we've talked about both and 594 00:27:15,676 --> 00:27:19,036 Speaker 2: you sort of have to maintain and cultivate both, which 595 00:27:19,196 --> 00:27:20,796 Speaker 2: sounds like a lot of work and a lot of time, 596 00:27:20,796 --> 00:27:23,796 Speaker 2: which we do not have. Yes, but what are some simple, 597 00:27:23,916 --> 00:27:25,636 Speaker 2: easy things that we can incorporate? 598 00:27:26,076 --> 00:27:28,836 Speaker 3: I got one, like, so my friend Tiffany Defu taught 599 00:27:28,876 --> 00:27:28,996 Speaker 3: me this. 600 00:27:29,156 --> 00:27:32,076 Speaker 2: I think, you know, she's an obliger. 601 00:27:33,916 --> 00:27:35,716 Speaker 3: I can see that so well. But then this is 602 00:27:35,756 --> 00:27:37,556 Speaker 3: an interesting story. So she was telling the story how 603 00:27:37,636 --> 00:27:39,436 Speaker 3: she had, you know, she had a girl's trip planned, 604 00:27:40,116 --> 00:27:42,956 Speaker 3: and her daughter Kua said to her, oh, mom, you 605 00:27:43,036 --> 00:27:44,836 Speaker 3: know I need you this weekend. 606 00:27:45,356 --> 00:27:50,716 Speaker 2: Ooh okay, Laurie as an obliger, yeah is that buttons, Yeah. 607 00:27:50,636 --> 00:27:53,276 Speaker 3: It's like I need you this weekend. It's really important. 608 00:27:53,916 --> 00:27:56,276 Speaker 3: And Tiffany thought about it and she looked at her 609 00:27:56,276 --> 00:27:59,636 Speaker 3: and she said, no, I'm going to go on my 610 00:27:59,716 --> 00:28:01,876 Speaker 3: girl's trip because if I don't show you that, I'm 611 00:28:01,916 --> 00:28:04,156 Speaker 3: going to put myself first, then you are never going 612 00:28:04,236 --> 00:28:07,076 Speaker 3: to learn that that's important to do that. And so 613 00:28:07,876 --> 00:28:09,836 Speaker 3: I think the take home that I would say to 614 00:28:09,916 --> 00:28:11,276 Speaker 3: all of us is we all need to do that 615 00:28:11,796 --> 00:28:14,396 Speaker 3: because it's often the girls trip that gets canceled, It's 616 00:28:14,436 --> 00:28:16,876 Speaker 3: often the dinner with friends that gets canceled. It's often 617 00:28:16,916 --> 00:28:20,036 Speaker 3: our friendships, right that take the back seat to like 618 00:28:20,556 --> 00:28:23,836 Speaker 3: everyone else's needs. And we know, no, no, no, that 619 00:28:23,916 --> 00:28:26,196 Speaker 3: when you die, the thing that mattered the most was 620 00:28:26,236 --> 00:28:29,356 Speaker 3: your friendships in your relationship. So like that can't be 621 00:28:29,956 --> 00:28:32,116 Speaker 3: in the back. So I think every time we feel 622 00:28:32,196 --> 00:28:34,276 Speaker 3: that push and pull, pick friendship. 623 00:28:34,716 --> 00:28:35,956 Speaker 1: Yeah, love that, love that. 624 00:28:36,556 --> 00:28:38,236 Speaker 2: And can you think of an example in your own 625 00:28:38,276 --> 00:28:40,516 Speaker 2: life where you had to have that struggle in your 626 00:28:40,516 --> 00:28:43,156 Speaker 2: own mind of part of me wants to keep working 627 00:28:43,476 --> 00:28:46,996 Speaker 2: or buckle down or go to sleep early all the time. 628 00:28:47,236 --> 00:28:48,996 Speaker 3: I have like a five and a ten year old, 629 00:28:48,996 --> 00:28:51,716 Speaker 3: who are two boys who make me feel guilty every 630 00:28:51,756 --> 00:28:53,516 Speaker 3: single minute. I could be around them all day long. 631 00:28:53,556 --> 00:28:55,836 Speaker 3: There where are you going? I mean, I'm going to 632 00:28:55,916 --> 00:28:59,556 Speaker 3: Miami with my girlfriend Deepa tomorrow and my son pouted 633 00:28:59,596 --> 00:29:01,396 Speaker 3: all the way to school when he realized that I 634 00:29:01,556 --> 00:29:04,156 Speaker 3: was leaving the next day. So I think, like mom. 635 00:29:04,316 --> 00:29:08,316 Speaker 3: Guilt is real and it is a constant exercise. You 636 00:29:08,356 --> 00:29:09,636 Speaker 3: know what I mean that I know that I have 637 00:29:09,796 --> 00:29:12,196 Speaker 3: to go through and one of the things though, it 638 00:29:12,316 --> 00:29:14,356 Speaker 3: has taught me, though, Gretchen and I've really been thinking 639 00:29:14,396 --> 00:29:16,236 Speaker 3: about this. I remember I go to a conference and 640 00:29:16,236 --> 00:29:17,716 Speaker 3: I would tell a story about that that my son 641 00:29:17,836 --> 00:29:19,916 Speaker 3: was upset that I was leaving, and the women in 642 00:29:19,956 --> 00:29:22,756 Speaker 3: the room would say, well, don't worry Rushma, because he's 643 00:29:22,836 --> 00:29:25,756 Speaker 3: not going to remember. And I remember thinking to myself, 644 00:29:25,796 --> 00:29:26,916 Speaker 3: but I'm going to remember. 645 00:29:26,996 --> 00:29:27,476 Speaker 2: Oh yeah. 646 00:29:27,996 --> 00:29:30,356 Speaker 3: So I think it's really important to figure out what 647 00:29:30,716 --> 00:29:33,836 Speaker 3: you want and what makes you happy. And it was 648 00:29:33,956 --> 00:29:37,236 Speaker 3: interesting Lori's I was listening to you. I cancel other 649 00:29:37,316 --> 00:29:39,716 Speaker 3: things before my friends. I need to be with friends. 650 00:29:39,996 --> 00:29:44,156 Speaker 3: I need that girls trip, that dinner, that plate like, 651 00:29:44,396 --> 00:29:46,396 Speaker 3: I need my girl time. 652 00:29:46,596 --> 00:29:48,636 Speaker 1: Well, as Gretchen will tell you, obliged to rebellion is 653 00:29:48,716 --> 00:29:51,036 Speaker 1: not the most rational state to be in when you 654 00:29:51,156 --> 00:29:52,436 Speaker 1: hit that point, unfortunately. 655 00:29:52,716 --> 00:29:57,036 Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, but it's interesting that you articulated for yourself 656 00:29:57,236 --> 00:29:59,236 Speaker 2: in that way. And I think that's helpful. Like my 657 00:29:59,396 --> 00:30:02,516 Speaker 2: identity is I am a good friend. I show up 658 00:30:03,116 --> 00:30:08,676 Speaker 2: and when I'm weighing this versus that friendship prevails. Like 659 00:30:09,156 --> 00:30:10,756 Speaker 2: say to myself, when I'm trying to think of how 660 00:30:10,756 --> 00:30:13,156 Speaker 2: to spend my precious time, energy, or money, I should 661 00:30:13,156 --> 00:30:15,596 Speaker 2: always try to spend it on relationships. And that's just 662 00:30:15,676 --> 00:30:18,716 Speaker 2: like a heuristic that helps me, Like should I pay 663 00:30:18,796 --> 00:30:20,436 Speaker 2: to go to my college reunion and deal with the 664 00:30:20,476 --> 00:30:23,476 Speaker 2: hassle of making the things? Or should I stay on 665 00:30:23,636 --> 00:30:26,876 Speaker 2: that really tiresome text chain or like you were saying, Lord, 666 00:30:27,276 --> 00:30:30,436 Speaker 2: are you the one that has to bear the awkwardness 667 00:30:30,796 --> 00:30:34,156 Speaker 2: of the first want to get a copy where you 668 00:30:34,236 --> 00:30:36,796 Speaker 2: feel like, oh my gosh, this feels so silly. So 669 00:30:37,316 --> 00:30:38,836 Speaker 2: I think that's a really great thing. And I think 670 00:30:38,916 --> 00:30:43,596 Speaker 2: just being really spelling that out for ourselves, being very explicit, 671 00:30:43,756 --> 00:30:45,996 Speaker 2: is very helpful. And how about you, Laurie, what would 672 00:30:45,996 --> 00:30:46,316 Speaker 2: you say? 673 00:30:46,796 --> 00:30:48,596 Speaker 1: So mine that I've been really trying to act on 674 00:30:48,716 --> 00:30:52,436 Speaker 1: myself lately is remembering that we're biased when it comes 675 00:30:52,476 --> 00:30:54,676 Speaker 1: to like connecting with other people. Right, So I often 676 00:30:54,756 --> 00:30:56,396 Speaker 1: am just going through the day and we'll have thoughts 677 00:30:56,436 --> 00:30:59,036 Speaker 1: about friends, Like yesterday, I was carrying a bag that 678 00:30:59,076 --> 00:31:00,916 Speaker 1: a friend of mine picked up on her trip to Africa. 679 00:31:00,956 --> 00:31:03,196 Speaker 1: It's this very pretty, like blue kind of like grocery 680 00:31:03,276 --> 00:31:05,476 Speaker 1: bag thing. And I was just using it to carry something, 681 00:31:05,556 --> 00:31:07,676 Speaker 1: and I just had a positive thought about my friend, right, 682 00:31:08,356 --> 00:31:11,076 Speaker 1: what you normally do just keep those positive thoughts to ourselves. 683 00:31:11,236 --> 00:31:12,996 Speaker 1: But of course I could have just like text her 684 00:31:13,036 --> 00:31:15,196 Speaker 1: and be like, hey, have your bag today, still enjoying it. 685 00:31:15,356 --> 00:31:17,516 Speaker 2: Just thinking of you, or like like just even sending 686 00:31:17,556 --> 00:31:19,116 Speaker 2: a photo of you holding. 687 00:31:19,036 --> 00:31:21,356 Speaker 1: You with the bag, I'm still using it. Yeah, And 688 00:31:21,476 --> 00:31:23,476 Speaker 1: so this is something I've tried to do a lot 689 00:31:23,556 --> 00:31:25,676 Speaker 1: more when I have a positive thought about a friend, 690 00:31:25,716 --> 00:31:28,036 Speaker 1: whether that's a memory or especially a gift that someone 691 00:31:28,116 --> 00:31:30,756 Speaker 1: gave you. Often you're still enjoying the gifts that someone 692 00:31:30,876 --> 00:31:33,916 Speaker 1: gave you and noticing it, but you never like remind 693 00:31:34,076 --> 00:31:37,916 Speaker 1: people right, you know, like the mug they gave you exactly, 694 00:31:38,076 --> 00:31:40,676 Speaker 1: And in fact I did. I did just this this 695 00:31:40,756 --> 00:31:42,556 Speaker 1: week with a friend of mine who literally gave me 696 00:31:42,596 --> 00:31:44,156 Speaker 1: a mug that I was like, I'm enjoying your mug 697 00:31:44,236 --> 00:31:46,796 Speaker 1: this morning, and it caused a conversation with a friend 698 00:31:46,796 --> 00:31:48,756 Speaker 1: I hadn't connected with, and she was like, oh, that's 699 00:31:48,796 --> 00:31:51,076 Speaker 1: so nice to hear this morning because I'm right now 700 00:31:51,196 --> 00:31:54,236 Speaker 1: sitting in palliative care with my father who's not doing well. 701 00:31:54,716 --> 00:31:56,716 Speaker 1: And then I knew about that, and had I not 702 00:31:56,836 --> 00:31:59,876 Speaker 1: texted her about the MUG, I wouldn't have known that situation. 703 00:32:00,196 --> 00:32:03,156 Speaker 1: And so whenever you have an urge to give a 704 00:32:03,276 --> 00:32:06,996 Speaker 1: compliment and no a moment of gratitude, a memory, thinking 705 00:32:07,076 --> 00:32:10,116 Speaker 1: of you, just send the text, just put in the call, 706 00:32:10,476 --> 00:32:13,316 Speaker 1: just drop it in the email. You feel like they 707 00:32:13,396 --> 00:32:15,916 Speaker 1: won't notice, it won't matter to them, But there's literally 708 00:32:15,996 --> 00:32:18,236 Speaker 1: studies on this that shows no, it matters more than 709 00:32:18,276 --> 00:32:21,156 Speaker 1: you think. It's less awkward than you think, it means 710 00:32:21,196 --> 00:32:23,356 Speaker 1: more to the person than you think. Our biases mean 711 00:32:23,436 --> 00:32:26,396 Speaker 1: we like are underreach out. But that like moment of 712 00:32:26,516 --> 00:32:28,436 Speaker 1: check in, you know, especially that story, I wouldn't have 713 00:32:28,556 --> 00:32:30,556 Speaker 1: known that something bad was happening in her life. And 714 00:32:30,676 --> 00:32:32,916 Speaker 1: now I can check in and we can reconnect and 715 00:32:33,156 --> 00:32:34,516 Speaker 1: I can be there to help in a way that 716 00:32:34,556 --> 00:32:36,236 Speaker 1: I'm so happy I get to do that, right. 717 00:32:36,636 --> 00:32:37,116 Speaker 3: I love that. 718 00:32:37,636 --> 00:32:39,596 Speaker 2: One way that I do that is I'll often, in 719 00:32:39,676 --> 00:32:42,796 Speaker 2: an idle moment, go back. I'm always sort of interested in, 720 00:32:42,876 --> 00:32:46,036 Speaker 2: like what was happening this day, eight years ago or whatever, 721 00:32:46,476 --> 00:32:49,156 Speaker 2: And it'll often surface a picture of a friend or 722 00:32:49,316 --> 00:32:51,836 Speaker 2: something that we shared, and I'll just send it to 723 00:32:51,916 --> 00:32:54,836 Speaker 2: them and I usually just say flashback. I don't even 724 00:32:55,196 --> 00:32:57,476 Speaker 2: I don't even I can't even be bothered to type 725 00:32:57,516 --> 00:33:00,356 Speaker 2: a caption, you know. But again, I think it is 726 00:33:00,596 --> 00:33:03,876 Speaker 2: the idea that you're present in someone else's consciousness. Yes, 727 00:33:04,036 --> 00:33:07,476 Speaker 2: they're thinking of you, they're remembering you, or like, oh, 728 00:33:07,796 --> 00:33:10,756 Speaker 2: some this equal to a movie you saw together, like 729 00:33:10,876 --> 00:33:13,716 Speaker 2: something even from the news or something like that. 730 00:33:14,556 --> 00:33:14,756 Speaker 1: Yeah. 731 00:33:15,156 --> 00:33:18,436 Speaker 3: Yeah, because people are going through things, so many things, 732 00:33:18,516 --> 00:33:21,276 Speaker 3: and I think knowing that someone may be thinking about them, 733 00:33:21,316 --> 00:33:24,756 Speaker 3: it's just it can shift their whole day so completely completely. 734 00:33:24,836 --> 00:33:27,316 Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, and maybe that's a good thing to remember, 735 00:33:27,396 --> 00:33:31,396 Speaker 2: which is we think about how the friendships strengthen us 736 00:33:31,516 --> 00:33:34,476 Speaker 2: and make us happier. But then you also think, well, 737 00:33:34,556 --> 00:33:37,996 Speaker 2: but they're being made happier the friend and palliative care. 738 00:33:38,556 --> 00:33:40,876 Speaker 2: You didn't even think of it, but you're making that 739 00:33:41,076 --> 00:33:44,116 Speaker 2: person happier. And so when you're planning your trip to Atlanta, 740 00:33:44,596 --> 00:33:47,076 Speaker 2: you're happier. But then your friend is happier too, and 741 00:33:47,196 --> 00:33:48,956 Speaker 2: so it's easy to sort of think about, what, how 742 00:33:49,036 --> 00:33:51,396 Speaker 2: is this boosting my happiness? But of course there's more 743 00:33:51,436 --> 00:33:52,796 Speaker 2: than one person involved. 744 00:33:52,516 --> 00:33:56,276 Speaker 1: Yet, and usually your perspective is wrong, right, Like when 745 00:33:56,316 --> 00:33:58,836 Speaker 1: I'm thinking like, oh, I'll text my friend because using 746 00:33:58,876 --> 00:34:01,236 Speaker 1: her bag and really appreciating it. Yeah, I'm thinking like, well, 747 00:34:01,236 --> 00:34:02,236 Speaker 1: how's that going to feel to me? 748 00:34:02,676 --> 00:34:02,876 Speaker 2: Yeah? 749 00:34:02,956 --> 00:34:04,796 Speaker 1: Of course she's on the other end and it's going 750 00:34:04,836 --> 00:34:06,636 Speaker 1: to hit her totally different. She's in the middle of 751 00:34:06,716 --> 00:34:08,876 Speaker 1: some random Wednesday and whatever stressor and she gets this 752 00:34:09,276 --> 00:34:12,236 Speaker 1: happy text. Right, that's surprise, which I didn't feel when 753 00:34:12,276 --> 00:34:14,076 Speaker 1: I was planning it, but she feels it on the 754 00:34:14,116 --> 00:34:17,036 Speaker 1: recipient end, and there's like, you know, just like this 755 00:34:17,276 --> 00:34:20,756 Speaker 1: warm glow that people think about this. This is something 756 00:34:20,796 --> 00:34:22,676 Speaker 1: else that some of the research shows that I've always 757 00:34:22,756 --> 00:34:24,276 Speaker 1: tried to take to heart. This is work by Nick 758 00:34:24,316 --> 00:34:26,756 Speaker 1: Epple and his colleagues. He finds that when we're thinking 759 00:34:26,756 --> 00:34:29,356 Speaker 1: about reaching out to someone, we tend to focus on 760 00:34:29,436 --> 00:34:31,796 Speaker 1: what he calls our competency. Am I going to write 761 00:34:31,796 --> 00:34:33,596 Speaker 1: the right text? Do I have time to not just 762 00:34:33,716 --> 00:34:36,396 Speaker 1: put like flashback and write the whole thing? Right? Am 763 00:34:36,436 --> 00:34:37,476 Speaker 1: I saying it right? 764 00:34:37,716 --> 00:34:37,876 Speaker 3: You know? 765 00:34:38,356 --> 00:34:41,036 Speaker 1: That's what we focus on, But our recipient doesn't see 766 00:34:41,036 --> 00:34:42,916 Speaker 1: any of that. They tend to just focus on the 767 00:34:43,036 --> 00:34:45,316 Speaker 1: warmth of it, like it's out of nowhere, this person 768 00:34:45,436 --> 00:34:47,716 Speaker 1: thought of me. It made me feel good, right, And 769 00:34:47,796 --> 00:34:50,636 Speaker 1: so sometimes our ability to do something nice for our friends, 770 00:34:50,676 --> 00:34:53,676 Speaker 1: get stuck in the competency party. Here's just another example. 771 00:34:53,716 --> 00:34:56,476 Speaker 1: I had a friend who is just he and his 772 00:34:56,596 --> 00:34:58,596 Speaker 1: wife just had a new baby, and I was like, 773 00:34:58,716 --> 00:35:00,796 Speaker 1: oh my gosh, it's been around since my friends were 774 00:35:00,836 --> 00:35:02,356 Speaker 1: having newborns, Like what do you do? Like, oh, you 775 00:35:02,436 --> 00:35:04,396 Speaker 1: send food? Like how do you send food or whatever? 776 00:35:04,676 --> 00:35:06,156 Speaker 1: And I was all up in my head about do 777 00:35:06,196 --> 00:35:08,876 Speaker 1: you send lasagna? Do they like lasagnya and grinala? 778 00:35:09,436 --> 00:35:09,636 Speaker 2: Yeah? 779 00:35:09,756 --> 00:35:11,396 Speaker 1: And then I was thinking back to Nick's research and 780 00:35:11,436 --> 00:35:13,276 Speaker 1: it was like, wait, they're not going to think about 781 00:35:13,316 --> 00:35:14,876 Speaker 1: any of that. They're not going to analyize it like 782 00:35:14,916 --> 00:35:16,196 Speaker 1: that kind of was on you. They're just gonna be like, 783 00:35:16,236 --> 00:35:17,876 Speaker 1: oh my gosh, Laurie, out of the blue, semi this 784 00:35:18,036 --> 00:35:20,356 Speaker 1: nice thing. That's so nice. And so the idea is like, 785 00:35:20,396 --> 00:35:22,716 Speaker 1: whenever you get to urge to do something nice or 786 00:35:22,756 --> 00:35:25,316 Speaker 1: to connect, don't overanalyze. They're not going to notice that. 787 00:35:25,836 --> 00:35:27,876 Speaker 1: Just dive in and do it. However you do it, 788 00:35:28,036 --> 00:35:28,956 Speaker 1: it will feel good to them. 789 00:35:29,356 --> 00:35:30,836 Speaker 3: The other thing is you guys are talking. I think 790 00:35:30,876 --> 00:35:33,756 Speaker 3: it's also great role modeling for our kids. Yeah, Like 791 00:35:34,036 --> 00:35:36,676 Speaker 3: both me and my husband like really value friendships. People 792 00:35:36,676 --> 00:35:38,476 Speaker 3: are always in our house, like you know what I mean, 793 00:35:39,156 --> 00:35:42,516 Speaker 3: And it's good, especially when you see how much more 794 00:35:42,756 --> 00:35:46,436 Speaker 3: isolated children are becoming now because of technology, and that 795 00:35:46,636 --> 00:35:48,476 Speaker 3: when we're making the effort to go have dinner with people, 796 00:35:48,556 --> 00:35:49,956 Speaker 3: or go to the next game with somebody, or go 797 00:35:50,036 --> 00:35:52,556 Speaker 3: on vacation with somebody, it's just good role modeling too. 798 00:35:52,716 --> 00:35:54,796 Speaker 2: Yes, I think, yeah, no, they see that you have 799 00:35:54,876 --> 00:35:58,076 Speaker 2: a book group, they see that you're going out with yeah, right, 800 00:35:58,276 --> 00:36:01,076 Speaker 2: exactly exactly, that you're going to birthday parties. You're having 801 00:36:01,076 --> 00:36:01,796 Speaker 2: a birthday party. 802 00:36:01,956 --> 00:36:04,556 Speaker 1: It also just makes adult life look less miserable than 803 00:36:04,596 --> 00:36:06,956 Speaker 1: when we're not like having fun with other people. I 804 00:36:06,996 --> 00:36:08,716 Speaker 1: think a lot of times kids are like me, an, 805 00:36:08,716 --> 00:36:11,516 Speaker 1: adult life is like terrible, But like when they see 806 00:36:11,596 --> 00:36:13,916 Speaker 1: us going on a trip to Miami with our girlfriends 807 00:36:14,036 --> 00:36:15,996 Speaker 1: or having that book club, it's like, oh, it's much 808 00:36:16,036 --> 00:36:16,836 Speaker 1: more palatable than that. 809 00:36:16,956 --> 00:36:20,916 Speaker 2: Not yes, exactly, Well, listen, this is so much fun. 810 00:36:21,156 --> 00:36:24,756 Speaker 2: Lourie Reshma, thank you for talking friendship with me. I 811 00:36:24,956 --> 00:36:27,956 Speaker 2: feel elevated just having this conversation. 812 00:36:28,396 --> 00:36:30,276 Speaker 1: Thanks so much for having us on the show. 813 00:36:30,396 --> 00:36:32,756 Speaker 3: This was so much fun. And we're new friends now. 814 00:36:32,916 --> 00:36:34,196 Speaker 2: Yeah, we're new friends now. 815 00:36:34,356 --> 00:36:35,796 Speaker 1: Yes, Miami trip next week. 816 00:36:35,996 --> 00:36:43,076 Speaker 2: That's right, that's right, let's do it. Well. We hope 817 00:36:43,076 --> 00:36:47,156 Speaker 2: you're feeling happier after this episode. Remember, the best time 818 00:36:47,236 --> 00:36:50,476 Speaker 2: to start a happiness project is twenty years ago. The 819 00:36:50,596 --> 00:37:09,356 Speaker 2: second best time is now. Yeah,