WEBVTT - 2022 Team Favorites: Gaming Studios

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<v Speaker 1>Hey, I'm Moses with the Bloomberg Crypto Podcast. We're taking

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<v Speaker 1>a little bit of a break to recharge and prep

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<v Speaker 1>for the new year, So this week we're rerunning some

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<v Speaker 1>of the team's best loved episodes. Today, we're reapping one

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<v Speaker 1>of my personal favorites. It's an interview with Mark Venturelli,

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<v Speaker 1>CEO of gaming studio Rogues Noil, and crypto blogger Emily Nicole.

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<v Speaker 1>Mark gives us a philosophical assessment on the role of

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<v Speaker 1>n f t s and gaming and the unintended consequences

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<v Speaker 1>that n f t s could have on gamers, especially

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<v Speaker 1>those from poorer backgrounds. All the best for the new year,

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<v Speaker 1>and we hope you enjoyed this show. Imagine it's October one.

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<v Speaker 1>Crypto prices are rocketing, Celebrities can't stop talking about n

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<v Speaker 1>f t s to other celebrities. There's packed conferences and

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<v Speaker 1>glitzy venues and places like Miami and London attended by

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<v Speaker 1>people wearing T shirts with cartoon monkeys on them. If

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<v Speaker 1>you're an executive at a big gaming studio seeing all

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<v Speaker 1>of this happen, you might might be forgiven for sending

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<v Speaker 1>one of those emails with the subject line like n

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<v Speaker 1>f T strategy question, Mark and several executives of gaming

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<v Speaker 1>companies did indeed send those emails, and some of their

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<v Speaker 1>companies rushed to announce plans about how they were going

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<v Speaker 1>to make blockchain gaming happen. Flash forward about a year

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<v Speaker 1>until right now, October twenties twenty two. Celebrities aren't talking

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<v Speaker 1>about their n f T s, people are trying to

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<v Speaker 1>sell those apes, and gaming studios don't seem quite so

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<v Speaker 1>convinced that they even need an n FT strategy anymore.

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<v Speaker 1>Joining me to discuss this vibe shift our Bloomberg report,

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<v Speaker 1>Emily Nicole. Definitely, the overwhelming reaction to that marketplace was

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<v Speaker 1>not positive from both fans and staff who complained very loudly,

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<v Speaker 1>and game developer Mark Ventarelli. One of the things that

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<v Speaker 1>most concerned me in turn society I think we are,

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<v Speaker 1>it's the depth of imagination, right. I think we're very

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<v Speaker 1>much a literal society. Mark, Emily, Welcome to the show. Mark.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm going to start with you because our listeners know

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<v Speaker 1>who Emily is by now. Please tell us who you

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<v Speaker 1>are and what brings you here today. Thank you, happy

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<v Speaker 1>to be here. My name is Mark Ventorelli and I'm

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<v Speaker 1>the CEO of Roguesdale, which is a game development studio

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<v Speaker 1>here in Brazil, and I've been a professional game designer

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<v Speaker 1>for over fifteen years. Very exciting. As I tell everyone

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<v Speaker 1>at this point, they all know somehow it working the

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<v Speaker 1>video games in the industry is like where I would

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<v Speaker 1>have gone had I not made the decision to be

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<v Speaker 1>a journalist. So it's always a pleasure to get to

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<v Speaker 1>talk about videos. Ha ha. Yeah, don't tell my bosses

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<v Speaker 1>they listen to this podcast. But you are here today

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<v Speaker 1>talking to us because you did a very interesting thing

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<v Speaker 1>a couple of months ago, which is show up on

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<v Speaker 1>a panel virtually at a conference, start to talk about

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<v Speaker 1>one thing and then be like, actually, never mind, we're

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<v Speaker 1>going to talk about n f t s and why

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<v Speaker 1>they're ruining video games. And so perhaps that is a

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<v Speaker 1>strong characterization of your presentation, but you know, I would

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<v Speaker 1>love to get your perspective as a person working in

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<v Speaker 1>the industry on what you have observed in terms of

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<v Speaker 1>this conversation around crypto and gaming, blockchain and gaming, n

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<v Speaker 1>f t s and gaming, and what has happened for

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<v Speaker 1>you in the months after you went some my viral

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<v Speaker 1>for that talk. I think the answer to that question

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<v Speaker 1>also clears up a little bit of a misconception around

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<v Speaker 1>my talk, which is, um, I kind of do change subjects,

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<v Speaker 1>but it is joking. I mean, I'm an entertainer, right,

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<v Speaker 1>I know how to commend people people's attentions, uh, with

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<v Speaker 1>gimmicks and fleshy stuff. That's where we do a lot

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<v Speaker 1>of the game design. But uh. The name of my

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<v Speaker 1>talk originally was uh and still is the future of

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<v Speaker 1>game Design. And in the middle of that talk, I say, actually,

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<v Speaker 1>like I'll change the name. I'll change the title the

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<v Speaker 1>stalk now, and it's going to be why n f

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<v Speaker 1>T S are an imare? And then I start talking

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<v Speaker 1>about that. And then at some point after I give

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<v Speaker 1>enough context about why I think and if he should

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<v Speaker 1>not be part of this future of game design, I

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<v Speaker 1>changed the title back to the future game design, and

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<v Speaker 1>I consuing, and so it was kind of a playful thing,

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<v Speaker 1>but it was all into like a single concise argument.

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<v Speaker 1>And to ask your question about like the motivation, I

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<v Speaker 1>think it is impossible to discuss the future of game design,

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<v Speaker 1>the future entertainment, and in many ways the future of

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<v Speaker 1>humanity right without addressing current friends and technology, without talking

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<v Speaker 1>about the blockchain specifically, but also an f d S

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<v Speaker 1>even more specifically. But I felt like I had a

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<v Speaker 1>unique point of view being a game designer and also

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<v Speaker 1>being someone who not only I have working I have

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<v Speaker 1>been working on the entertainment industry for my entire life.

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<v Speaker 1>I also am very much technology enthusiasts. I have been

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<v Speaker 1>into the blockchain and studying into figuring out how to

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<v Speaker 1>use it and trying to do stuff with it for many,

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<v Speaker 1>many years, and I felt like I had a unique

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<v Speaker 1>point of view to contribute to the overall conversation about

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<v Speaker 1>gaming plus blockchain, and that's why I felt need to

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<v Speaker 1>do the talk. As for what changed after the talk,

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<v Speaker 1>got a lot more Twitter phones. So you're saying it's working.

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<v Speaker 1>What you're saying, well, it wasn't my goal right overall,

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<v Speaker 1>I felt like the goal that I had going into

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<v Speaker 1>this event, um, we accomplished that. And when I say we,

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<v Speaker 1>I say not only me, but student everybody who helped

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<v Speaker 1>me make the talk, also the everybody who on the

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<v Speaker 1>side of being developers in Brazil specifically agree with my positions. Uh.

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<v Speaker 1>There was a big movement still is to boycott events

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<v Speaker 1>like Big Festival, which is our equivalence to the game

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<v Speaker 1>developers conference. It's like the biggest bill my conference in Brazil.

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<v Speaker 1>We have right now to bloycott it because he had

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<v Speaker 1>crypto sponsors, or because he had crypto gaming, And I

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<v Speaker 1>said no, like, this is not a crypto event. This

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<v Speaker 1>is a game development event. Like if you boycotted because

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<v Speaker 1>we don't agree with things that are there, like we're

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<v Speaker 1>not doing ourselves any favors we used to be there

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<v Speaker 1>and to say our piece, not to put two final

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<v Speaker 1>points on it. You know you. Emily also interviewed you

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<v Speaker 1>for a follow up story that I'm gonna ask her

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<v Speaker 1>about very shortly, and your quotes in that story, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>just if I may read a piece of it is

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<v Speaker 1>essentially characterizing the idea of n f T s and

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<v Speaker 1>video games as a gimmicky technology that provides nothing of

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<v Speaker 1>value besides and make money quick scheme. What I would

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<v Speaker 1>love to get your perspective on is why, as a

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<v Speaker 1>person who makes games, do you not think there's any

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<v Speaker 1>value in this particular technology, contrary to what other people

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<v Speaker 1>who also make games are trying to argue. If I

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<v Speaker 1>had to choose a few core things, I feel like

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<v Speaker 1>it is about what games are for in society, because

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<v Speaker 1>I try and bring a lot about this, like what

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<v Speaker 1>value do we actually offer to society as artists, as entertainers,

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<v Speaker 1>as media creators involved in making video games. I feel

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<v Speaker 1>like to these days, the players, not only video game

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<v Speaker 1>players and young people, but especially young people, the the

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<v Speaker 1>gen z uh, they feel hopeless, they feel powerless, right.

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<v Speaker 1>It's a generation that looks at all the issues and

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<v Speaker 1>all the problems that they have ahead of them, and

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<v Speaker 1>they don't feel like they have what it takes to

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<v Speaker 1>take them on. And I think the video games, among many, many,

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<v Speaker 1>many other things, is a place where you can be powerful,

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<v Speaker 1>where your actions can be meaningful, where you can be

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<v Speaker 1>the hero right, where you can have a power fantasy

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<v Speaker 1>to control fantasy, where you can feel like you're in control.

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<v Speaker 1>You're important, you matter, your actions matter, your decisions matter.

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<v Speaker 1>And this is all relates to your concept, which is

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<v Speaker 1>very important game design technically, which is meaning right, Um,

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<v Speaker 1>And what I think that everything that has been done

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<v Speaker 1>in the space and it was always the intention to

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<v Speaker 1>do that, right, Like, it's not a surprise that and

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<v Speaker 1>if these are doing to bring economic factors into gaming

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<v Speaker 1>in a way that brings the one thing that really

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<v Speaker 1>don't want to from the real world into games or

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<v Speaker 1>any other kind of entertainment, which is oppression. So when

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<v Speaker 1>you bring economic uh, real world economics into game design,

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<v Speaker 1>what you do and again I'm simplifying this very much.

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<v Speaker 1>I go into into this more in depth in My Dog,

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<v Speaker 1>But what effectively what you're doing is you're bringing oppression

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<v Speaker 1>into these into these spaces, right, which you're supposed to

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<v Speaker 1>be fantasy spaces, spaces of imagination, spaces of empowerment, spaces

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<v Speaker 1>spaces of meaning. Right, Like I suddenly you are oppressed

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<v Speaker 1>in the VIG game. You no longer can win. But

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<v Speaker 1>I think that's the thing about one of the things

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<v Speaker 1>about classic games and classic game design is you always

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<v Speaker 1>can win. It's always possible to win. Right. The moments

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<v Speaker 1>where you feel like it's no longer possible to win

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<v Speaker 1>is the moment where the game is no longer relevant,

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<v Speaker 1>like I don't want to play anymore. It's not it's

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<v Speaker 1>not possible to win. And that's not true too many

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<v Speaker 1>real word uh interactions, right, is not always possible to win,

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<v Speaker 1>and and that that's what oppression is. And when you

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<v Speaker 1>bring this into games, you destroy the possibility of winning.

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<v Speaker 1>You say, you know the phrase that you use there

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<v Speaker 1>which I find is very interesting, is kind of like

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<v Speaker 1>in classic or classical game design, because the idea of

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<v Speaker 1>pay to win was certainly not invented by crypto people.

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<v Speaker 1>You know that that is the casualization of mobile gaming,

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<v Speaker 1>the idea of loop boxes, the idea of gotcha, the

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<v Speaker 1>whole notion of sure, you can get to level five,

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<v Speaker 1>but if you want to get to level fifty, it's

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<v Speaker 1>gonna cost you either tens of thousands of hours of

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<v Speaker 1>your life or hundreds of dollars. Um has been extremely

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<v Speaker 1>prevalent in in games for a long time, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>like from in app purchase to d l c s too.

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<v Speaker 1>Like you buy a hero, you know, forget just kind

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<v Speaker 1>of the economics of consumables, but the the actual mechanical

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<v Speaker 1>pricing of if you really want the sword and this

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<v Speaker 1>sort is the thing that you're gonna need to you know,

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<v Speaker 1>be the hero, it's gonna cost you money. So those

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<v Speaker 1>those elements aren't crypto specific what you're describing, but they are,

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<v Speaker 1>in your argument, even more profound in a crypto context. Yes,

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<v Speaker 1>I think so, either equivalent or worse. We'll be right

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<v Speaker 1>back with more from Bloomberg reporters Emily Nicole and video

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<v Speaker 1>game developer Mark Ventarelli. Emily, I'm gonna go to you

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<v Speaker 1>to just, you know, sort of zoom out a little bit,

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<v Speaker 1>because you started reporting on the intersection of crypto and

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<v Speaker 1>gaming when various executives at other studios, particularly the larger ones,

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<v Speaker 1>thought it was a good idea, and you know, you

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<v Speaker 1>had various folks who you will name, be like, yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>what we actually need to do is design an n

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<v Speaker 1>FT exchange thing where players can monetize, and they made

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<v Speaker 1>you know, it's They took all of the arguments that

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<v Speaker 1>Mark is making that are negative and thrown them into

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<v Speaker 1>things and like, here the reasons why these are good

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<v Speaker 1>for our players? Who were some of those folks, and

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<v Speaker 1>what's the status of those projects right now? I think

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<v Speaker 1>one of the easiest and the largest publishers to point

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<v Speaker 1>to on that front is the French publisher Ubisoft, which

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<v Speaker 1>makes the very very very popular game franchise Assassin's Creed.

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<v Speaker 1>Because they started their kind of I guess you call

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<v Speaker 1>them web three n f T experiments last year and

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<v Speaker 1>they came out with a marketplace that was specifically for

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<v Speaker 1>one of their games, um and it was released to

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<v Speaker 1>the public pretty early. Did have all the usual markers

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<v Speaker 1>of like this is a beta test, etcetera. But you know,

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<v Speaker 1>anybody can access to Anybody could buy the n f

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<v Speaker 1>t s if they were things like swords and guns

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<v Speaker 1>and um and various outfits and things that you could

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<v Speaker 1>play in this game. But after a few months of

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<v Speaker 1>being active, pretty much nobody was buying them. The prices

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<v Speaker 1>were pretty low, and within you know, by April this year,

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<v Speaker 1>the whole thing was shut down and it was no

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<v Speaker 1>longer active. And if you hear Upisoft talk about that

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<v Speaker 1>project now, the conversation very much goes like, well, this

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<v Speaker 1>was early research. We were thinking about Web three, we

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<v Speaker 1>were thinking about how we could do this, and we're

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<v Speaker 1>exploring things. And just because we shut it down doesn't

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<v Speaker 1>mean we're not thinking about Web three anymore. We're not

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<v Speaker 1>doing things on blockchain. But definitely, the overwhelming reaction to

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<v Speaker 1>that marketplace was not positive, from both fans and staff,

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<v Speaker 1>who complained very loudly externally and internally about the fact

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<v Speaker 1>that uposoft was doing something with npt s. Mark I

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<v Speaker 1>have a question for you about It's it's based on,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, the cleon phrase like great artists steal. Is

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<v Speaker 1>there anything about the arguments that proponents of n f

0:14:11.400 --> 0:14:13.960
<v Speaker 1>T S, etcetera making about blockchain about you know this,

0:14:14.480 --> 0:14:17.720
<v Speaker 1>this theoretical future in which more of your fun in

0:14:17.800 --> 0:14:22.080
<v Speaker 1>game things are interoperable. Are any of those as concepts

0:14:22.120 --> 0:14:24.360
<v Speaker 1>separate from the you know what folks like to call

0:14:24.440 --> 0:14:27.880
<v Speaker 1>the to economics or the economics of these tokens interesting

0:14:28.280 --> 0:14:34.480
<v Speaker 1>to game developers? Honestly, Um, there isn't, in my opinion,

0:14:34.680 --> 0:14:39.400
<v Speaker 1>anything in that space that works separately from toconomics. That's

0:14:39.800 --> 0:14:43.960
<v Speaker 1>actually the one question that if you ask people are

0:14:43.960 --> 0:14:48.760
<v Speaker 1>proposing these kinds of systems usually breaks them, like like

0:14:48.840 --> 0:14:52.360
<v Speaker 1>if it's okay, but besides the economics, besides the economic factor,

0:14:52.440 --> 0:14:56.240
<v Speaker 1>besides all these things, what are you proposing here? And

0:14:56.320 --> 0:14:59.720
<v Speaker 1>it's usually like said everything you'll just new again, like

0:15:00.080 --> 0:15:05.120
<v Speaker 1>the things about, for example, interpreterability, like this is not

0:15:05.560 --> 0:15:11.040
<v Speaker 1>in itself a new idea. Uh, at large scale is

0:15:11.080 --> 0:15:14.480
<v Speaker 1>a terrible idea. I see people talking about the metaverse,

0:15:14.520 --> 0:15:17.720
<v Speaker 1>for example, as if well, like you can get an

0:15:17.760 --> 0:15:20.440
<v Speaker 1>item from game acts and then you can use it

0:15:20.480 --> 0:15:24.240
<v Speaker 1>on the game. Why that that sounds fun and it

0:15:24.240 --> 0:15:28.320
<v Speaker 1>could be fun if it is designed with intent. But

0:15:29.360 --> 0:15:32.440
<v Speaker 1>the idea of the metaverse and the there's an idea

0:15:32.480 --> 0:15:35.920
<v Speaker 1>of interpretability that people would have on the dog free space.

0:15:36.600 --> 0:15:40.280
<v Speaker 1>It's to make it ubiquitous. Right. When you do that,

0:15:40.920 --> 0:15:43.760
<v Speaker 1>this is actually a nightmare. You're just from moving designers

0:15:43.800 --> 0:15:47.680
<v Speaker 1>the ability to create meaning. Like a talk about this

0:15:47.760 --> 0:15:50.040
<v Speaker 1>in my talk as well. Like there's a thing game

0:15:50.040 --> 0:15:52.720
<v Speaker 1>design called the magic circle, which is a way that

0:15:52.920 --> 0:15:56.680
<v Speaker 1>game designers we can imbute things with meaning. Right. So

0:15:56.880 --> 0:15:58.840
<v Speaker 1>here in Brazil, we play a lot of soccer on

0:15:58.880 --> 0:16:01.640
<v Speaker 1>the streets, right, and then we use flip flops to

0:16:01.840 --> 0:16:04.760
<v Speaker 1>mark where the goal is. Right, So we're just taking

0:16:04.760 --> 0:16:07.280
<v Speaker 1>flip flops and saying, hey, this is the goal. They

0:16:07.280 --> 0:16:10.080
<v Speaker 1>are no longer flip flops inside of this magic circle

0:16:10.160 --> 0:16:15.520
<v Speaker 1>that we're defining here. So that is one of the

0:16:15.560 --> 0:16:20.800
<v Speaker 1>poor verbs of game designers to imbue with meaning, right. Uh.

0:16:20.960 --> 0:16:25.320
<v Speaker 1>And when you try to create these ubiquitous interpretability rising games,

0:16:25.800 --> 0:16:29.760
<v Speaker 1>but what you're actually doing is you're creating these like

0:16:29.800 --> 0:16:34.160
<v Speaker 1>a ooze of everything is the same thing as the

0:16:34.680 --> 0:16:38.400
<v Speaker 1>like token token ization in terms of cultural terms, right,

0:16:38.480 --> 0:16:42.160
<v Speaker 1>it's the end goal these these people, right, they actually

0:16:42.160 --> 0:16:44.960
<v Speaker 1>want to destroy art, like, uh, is the same thing

0:16:45.000 --> 0:16:48.120
<v Speaker 1>like if you see like Fortnite, for example, like you

0:16:48.360 --> 0:16:51.320
<v Speaker 1>really like Spider Man. Well, you can be Spiderman Fortnite

0:16:51.640 --> 0:16:53.920
<v Speaker 1>and then you can like shoot an a K for

0:16:54.000 --> 0:16:56.680
<v Speaker 1>a seven at Naruto or something like that. Right when

0:16:56.720 --> 0:17:00.320
<v Speaker 1>you're doing that, it's no longer the Spider Man. Right.

0:17:00.400 --> 0:17:03.360
<v Speaker 1>If you like Peter Parker, if you like Miles Morause,

0:17:03.840 --> 0:17:06.400
<v Speaker 1>like if you like these kinds of characters, and that's

0:17:06.400 --> 0:17:08.679
<v Speaker 1>why you like Peer Parker, and that's why I like

0:17:08.720 --> 0:17:12.240
<v Speaker 1>Spider Man. Sorry, uh, that person there, that character there

0:17:12.720 --> 0:17:15.280
<v Speaker 1>is just the brand. It's just a token. It's not

0:17:15.359 --> 0:17:19.080
<v Speaker 1>Miles Morause. It's just Spider Man, the token, right, it is.

0:17:19.280 --> 0:17:22.240
<v Speaker 1>It's it's not there's no death to it. There's no

0:17:22.359 --> 0:17:26.040
<v Speaker 1>real meaning to it. It's empty. It's soulless. And what

0:17:26.280 --> 0:17:29.960
<v Speaker 1>you actually achieve if you try to do a large

0:17:29.960 --> 0:17:34.040
<v Speaker 1>scale interoperability between games is that you destroy this meaning.

0:17:34.119 --> 0:17:36.560
<v Speaker 1>You just try that. You destroy arts to start expression,

0:17:36.600 --> 0:17:40.760
<v Speaker 1>you strike character, you destroy subjectivity, like, uh, you're just

0:17:40.840 --> 0:17:43.879
<v Speaker 1>everything becomes literal. And that's one of the things that

0:17:44.480 --> 0:17:47.679
<v Speaker 1>most concerned me in current society. I think we are

0:17:48.240 --> 0:17:50.919
<v Speaker 1>it's the death of imagination, right, I think we're very

0:17:50.960 --> 0:17:54.560
<v Speaker 1>much a literal society. Like the current rise of like

0:17:54.800 --> 0:17:57.760
<v Speaker 1>alt rights and stuff like that is very much connected

0:17:57.800 --> 0:18:00.880
<v Speaker 1>to people being very literal as a spons to an

0:18:00.920 --> 0:18:04.399
<v Speaker 1>overload of our of our senses, of our ability to

0:18:05.160 --> 0:18:08.600
<v Speaker 1>interpret this overload of information coming at us, right, the

0:18:08.640 --> 0:18:11.800
<v Speaker 1>swarm of information coming at us, and to make everything

0:18:11.880 --> 0:18:15.720
<v Speaker 1>just literal. That is extremely dangerous, not only to video

0:18:15.720 --> 0:18:20.200
<v Speaker 1>game an artistic expression in general and entertainment, but for

0:18:20.320 --> 0:18:24.159
<v Speaker 1>us as a society. I love a podcast that is

0:18:24.200 --> 0:18:26.879
<v Speaker 1>both existential and spicy at the same time. So I

0:18:26.920 --> 0:18:29.960
<v Speaker 1>think we are. I think we're gonna end it there.

0:18:30.200 --> 0:18:33.040
<v Speaker 1>Thank you both, Emily, Thank you very much, Mark Brigada.

0:18:33.520 --> 0:18:35.240
<v Speaker 1>It was a pleasure having you both on the show.

0:18:36.840 --> 0:18:38.760
<v Speaker 1>You can find more of Emily Nicole's reporting on the

0:18:38.800 --> 0:18:41.720
<v Speaker 1>Bloomberg Terminal on Bloomberg dot com or follow her on Twitter.

0:18:42.119 --> 0:18:47.960
<v Speaker 1>She's at Emily J. Nicole. On the next episode of

0:18:48.000 --> 0:18:51.919
<v Speaker 1>Bloomberg Crypto, there's nothing straightforward about a crypto bankruptcy, and

0:18:51.920 --> 0:18:55.200
<v Speaker 1>in finance, where there's complexity, there's gonna be someone ready

0:18:55.240 --> 0:18:58.200
<v Speaker 1>to make money from the chaos. On this next episode,

0:18:58.320 --> 0:19:00.720
<v Speaker 1>you'll hear from one of the people who's finding opportunities

0:19:00.760 --> 0:19:07.240
<v Speaker 1>in the crypto distress. This is Bloomberg Crypto, a daily

0:19:07.280 --> 0:19:10.680
<v Speaker 1>podcast from Bloomberg and I Heart Radio. For more shows

0:19:10.680 --> 0:19:13.040
<v Speaker 1>from I Heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app,

0:19:13.280 --> 0:19:17.399
<v Speaker 1>Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Send us

0:19:17.400 --> 0:19:20.280
<v Speaker 1>your comments, questions, or suggestions for the show to Crypto

0:19:20.359 --> 0:19:23.480
<v Speaker 1>at Bloomberg dot net or find us on Twitter. We're

0:19:23.520 --> 0:19:29.200
<v Speaker 1>at Crypto. The supervising producer of Bloomberg Crypto is Vicky Verglina.

0:19:29.600 --> 0:19:33.479
<v Speaker 1>Our senior producer is Janet Babin. Our producer is Mohammed Faruk.

0:19:33.960 --> 0:19:37.439
<v Speaker 1>Associate producer is Moses on the Desto wonder At is

0:19:37.440 --> 0:19:42.480
<v Speaker 1>our engineer. Original music by Leo Sidran. I'm Stacy Maria Ishmael.

0:19:42.760 --> 0:20:00.320
<v Speaker 1>We'll be back tomorrow two