WEBVTT - Cohan's Book Chronicles the Success and Failure of GE

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<v Speaker 1>You're listening to Bloomberg Business Week with Carol Messer and

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<v Speaker 1>Bloomberg Quick Takes Tim Stinovic on Bloomberg Radio. Well, the

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<v Speaker 1>next guest has written about Goldman Sachs, the fall of

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<v Speaker 1>Bear Stearns. He's written about the Duke Lacrosse scandal. He's

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<v Speaker 1>written about his friends. His latest subject is General Electric

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<v Speaker 1>And it is so great to have with us in

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<v Speaker 1>our Bloomberg Interactor broker's studio, Bill Cohen, He's a former

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<v Speaker 1>Wall Street m and a investment banker. I think for

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<v Speaker 1>seventeen years seventeen long time financial journalist. He's been writing

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<v Speaker 1>for a Who's Who, a business journalism, and more, including

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<v Speaker 1>Business Week. He's authored many books, several New York Times bestsellers,

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<v Speaker 1>former Bloomberg contributor, and I think you and I even

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<v Speaker 1>anchored together at one point. We did time the good

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<v Speaker 1>old days. Anymore, I'll just see myself out and listen

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<v Speaker 1>to this. His latest book is Power Failure, The Rise

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<v Speaker 1>and Fall of an American Icon. Really delighted to have

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<v Speaker 1>you in studio. First of all, how are you. I'm great,

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<v Speaker 1>Thank you. It's great to be here, great to be

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<v Speaker 1>back in this building. Honestly, it is really great. Right

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<v Speaker 1>A long time ago, you've been busy tell us about

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<v Speaker 1>this book. Well, Uh, there seems to be a strange

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<v Speaker 1>pattern going on, Carol. Like you know, when I wrote

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<v Speaker 1>about bear Stearns, there's sort of a metaphorical dead body

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<v Speaker 1>on the ground, and I wanted to know how it

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<v Speaker 1>got there. Same thing with the Duke Lacrosse scandal. Uh,

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<v Speaker 1>even the Goldman, I wanted to know how it avoided death. Uh.

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<v Speaker 1>And with GE, you know, Uh, to me, it felt

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<v Speaker 1>like also there was a dead body on the ground,

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<v Speaker 1>and I wanted to know how it got there. It

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<v Speaker 1>was sort of like a mystery that I wanted to solve,

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<v Speaker 1>and I felt compelled to solve it. So some for

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<v Speaker 1>some reason, I made the crazy decision to go back

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<v Speaker 1>to the founding of the company and try to figure

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<v Speaker 1>out what happened. And even from the outset, things aren't

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<v Speaker 1>exactly the way they seem. People think that, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>Thomas Edison was the great founder of GE, but in fact,

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<v Speaker 1>by the time his company merged with another company, another

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<v Speaker 1>electric company, Thomas Edison was already out of the picture.

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<v Speaker 1>It was just a small shareholder of a company that

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<v Speaker 1>was controlled by JP Morgan and Henry Villard, with Henry

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<v Speaker 1>Vllard being the CEO, and then it merged with Charles

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<v Speaker 1>Coffin's uh, you know electric company to form General Electric,

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<v Speaker 1>and Charles Coffin became the CEO of the combined company,

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<v Speaker 1>with Edison not even knowing about the merger, not wanting

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<v Speaker 1>the merger, and him just like floating off, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>over to New Jersey to you know, create some sort

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<v Speaker 1>of limestone mining company or something. So right from the outset,

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<v Speaker 1>and then just one more thing, because it is darn interesting,

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<v Speaker 1>is that was? And then in was the big financial

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<v Speaker 1>crisis and ge almost went bankrupt. And if they didn't

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<v Speaker 1>buy their debt back at a discount, if this sounds familiar,

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<v Speaker 1>if they didn't buy their desk debt back at a

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<v Speaker 1>discount with permission from JP Morgan, they would have gone bankrupt.

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<v Speaker 1>So fast forward to today, and yes, what we see

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<v Speaker 1>what we see with g today. How would you just

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<v Speaker 1>where or when would you describe the turning point into

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<v Speaker 1>you know, the quote unquote dead body that you see

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<v Speaker 1>gees today? When did that start to die? But you

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<v Speaker 1>know that, of course is the subject of much debate

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<v Speaker 1>sort of centered around the idea of whether sort of

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<v Speaker 1>Jack Welch Uh, you know, bequeath Jeff Immult a company

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<v Speaker 1>that was not nearly as robust as Jack thought it was.

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<v Speaker 1>Jack thought he had bequeathed them a royal flush, and

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<v Speaker 1>Jeff thought it was, you know, kind of a losing hand.

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<v Speaker 1>So whether that's true or whether Jack actually left, I mean,

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<v Speaker 1>he did leave him the most valuable company in the world,

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<v Speaker 1>the most respected company in the world. But you know,

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<v Speaker 1>he also Jeff took over from Jack on September seven

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<v Speaker 1>of two thousand one. G E made the engines on

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<v Speaker 1>the jets. GEE had reinsured some of the buildings down

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<v Speaker 1>at the World Trade Center, and they of course owned

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<v Speaker 1>NBC Universe NBC which hadn't ran from with no advertising

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<v Speaker 1>for you know, least a week, costing GE hundreds of

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<v Speaker 1>millions of dollars. So uh, and they lost some employees

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<v Speaker 1>that day. And of course, uh, you know, everything kind

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<v Speaker 1>of changed in governance after nine eleven. Uh. And so

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<v Speaker 1>you know, Jeff thought he had gotten a very different

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<v Speaker 1>set of assets and opportunities than Jack thought he had

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<v Speaker 1>bequeathed them. But so the question is, you know, did

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<v Speaker 1>Jeff play the hand poorly or did you know, can

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<v Speaker 1>make wrong decisions. I think really the turning point seemed

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<v Speaker 1>to be, uh, the financial crisis, no surprise because because

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<v Speaker 1>you know, g E owned G Capital, which was, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>like the third or fourth largest financial institution in the country,

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<v Speaker 1>and everybody was focused on Wall Street going down the tubes.

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<v Speaker 1>But G Capital almost went to two down the tubes

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<v Speaker 1>as well. It's something I want to ask you about,

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<v Speaker 1>Um that's not related to your book, but the crypto world.

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<v Speaker 1>For someone who has understood the financial market, it's been

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<v Speaker 1>on Wall Street prior to writing all of these books. Um,

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<v Speaker 1>how do you see the crypto world right now? Do

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<v Speaker 1>you think about it? Do you want to write about it?

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<v Speaker 1>I've I've written about it for Puck. You have written

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<v Speaker 1>about it. Yeah, that book coming at some point, probably

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<v Speaker 1>by Michael Lewis. I think over the weekend right I

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<v Speaker 1>am working on a documentary film about cryptocurrency and did

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<v Speaker 1>interview the infamous now SBF less December for ninety minutes

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<v Speaker 1>for the film. Uh. You know, this is a watershed moment,

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<v Speaker 1>and not a good one. It's sort of you know,

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<v Speaker 1>it's it's hard to say whether it's an Enron moment,

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<v Speaker 1>an MF Global moment, a Lehman moment, it's probably some

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<v Speaker 1>of all of the same, and none of them en

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<v Speaker 1>did well, So it's not going to be good for

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<v Speaker 1>ft X, obviously already filed for bankruptcy. I mean, I

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<v Speaker 1>think the big question is when you have the icon

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<v Speaker 1>of the industry, you know, the guy who is supposedly

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<v Speaker 1>the JP Morgan of the industry, you know, literally going

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<v Speaker 1>up in smoke in three days when nobody even conceived

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<v Speaker 1>of that. Of course, nobody conceived of Bear Stearns or

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<v Speaker 1>Lehman going down, or en Ron or World Calm or

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<v Speaker 1>any of those things. Of course, you know, they happened

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<v Speaker 1>very very quickly. And uh, you know, I think though

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<v Speaker 1>it's gonna have huge ramifications obviously for Mr SPF whether

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<v Speaker 1>or not he goes to prison or not. You know,

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<v Speaker 1>it's unclear whether you know, he's you know, criminally culpable

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<v Speaker 1>for what went on or maybe just naive. I mean,

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<v Speaker 1>it literally is unknown at this point. I think what

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<v Speaker 1>we need is in an exam, an examiner in the

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<v Speaker 1>in the bankruptcy case, like there was in Lehman, to

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<v Speaker 1>figure out exactly what happened. And I hope the judge

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<v Speaker 1>appoints somebody, but I think this is gonna chill, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>investment in this industry for a while. But but let

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<v Speaker 1>me just make one other point. I also think that

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<v Speaker 1>it will be a good thing in the long run,

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<v Speaker 1>just like you know Webb dot one do zero was

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<v Speaker 1>a good thing to come and go. We're gonna come

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<v Speaker 1>back with Bill Cohen right here on Bloomberg Radio. You

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<v Speaker 1>want to get back to our guests. Bill Cohen still

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<v Speaker 1>with us. His latest book well known obviously to our

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<v Speaker 1>Bloomberg audience and a former Bloomberg contributor. His latest book

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<v Speaker 1>is called Power Failure, The Rise and Fall of an

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<v Speaker 1>American Icon. It is about ge I want to ask

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<v Speaker 1>you something though, because you've written about Goldman sachs Um

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<v Speaker 1>and our most read story in the Bloomberg has to

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<v Speaker 1>do with Goldman paying out a twelve million dollars or

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<v Speaker 1>well over twelve million dollars to a partner who complained

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<v Speaker 1>internally about a toxic workplace for women in the highest

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<v Speaker 1>echelons of Wall Street's most prestigious firm. This is our

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<v Speaker 1>most read story all day today. I guess what I

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<v Speaker 1>wanted to ask you is what is the right question

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<v Speaker 1>to be asking? Is this a Goldman Stories that a

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<v Speaker 1>Wall Street story, Like, what is it when we see

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<v Speaker 1>something like this, which is, as our reporter said, this

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<v Speaker 1>doesn't happen a lot, and it certainly isn't made public

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<v Speaker 1>a lot when something like this happens. This is not

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<v Speaker 1>just a Goldman Sachs problem. This is a chronic problem

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<v Speaker 1>across Wall Street and has been for generations. You know.

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<v Speaker 1>My first book was about Lazard, where I had worked

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<v Speaker 1>for six years, and I had a chapter in their

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<v Speaker 1>chapter fourteen called It's a White Man's World, and it

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<v Speaker 1>basically chronicled back then. That's that book came out in

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<v Speaker 1>two thousand seven about the way women were treated at

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<v Speaker 1>Lizard and it was not pretty okay. Uh. In my

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<v Speaker 1>Goldman book, I also wrote about the way women were

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<v Speaker 1>treated at Goldman. And I think I know some of

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<v Speaker 1>these women who just you know, who brought this lawsuit

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<v Speaker 1>against Goldman. Uh. You know, this is a chronic problem

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<v Speaker 1>across the industry. There's a lot of lip service paid

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<v Speaker 1>to trying to treat people better, and not just women,

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<v Speaker 1>but women in particular, and uh, you know, other people

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<v Speaker 1>who don't have the opportunities they should have, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>in this chronic you know that that goes back to

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<v Speaker 1>sort of the original culture of the original sins, if

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<v Speaker 1>you will, of these firms, which were sort of like

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<v Speaker 1>white male partnerships, and they were family owned businesses. They

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<v Speaker 1>were small, little, my own businesses. There was a Mr Goldman,

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<v Speaker 1>there was a Mr Sachs, there was a JP. Morgan,

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<v Speaker 1>there were three Lizard brothers, there were Lehman brothers. So

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<v Speaker 1>these were all family owned businesses. They were very wary

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<v Speaker 1>of outsiders, didn't want, you know, even to marry outside

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<v Speaker 1>the family because they were afraid of deluding the ownership

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<v Speaker 1>and the culture that they were creating at these firms.

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<v Speaker 1>It was a matter of trust. But of course as

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<v Speaker 1>they got bigger and wealthier and more successful, they brought

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<v Speaker 1>in other partners. Sometimes it works, sometimes it didn't, you know.

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<v Speaker 1>And and at Lazard they were wary of bringing in,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, women, They didn't think women could you know,

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<v Speaker 1>do this work or wanted to do this work. And

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<v Speaker 1>I remember they had one woman, and then the idea

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<v Speaker 1>was to bring in a second one. And somebody, some

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<v Speaker 1>fancy partners, said, why do we need a second partner,

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<v Speaker 1>We already have one. I was a second woman. We

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<v Speaker 1>already have one. I mean, that was the mentalities. Yeah, okay,

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<v Speaker 1>whatever exactly. I mean, obviously that's ridiculous and needs to change.

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<v Speaker 1>But it's slow to change, and even when they give

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<v Speaker 1>lip service to it, it's slow to change because it's

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<v Speaker 1>not a particularly you know, pleasant work environment to begin with.

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<v Speaker 1>It's very laborious, hard work, long hours. Nobody's gonna have

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<v Speaker 1>much sympathy for people who work on Well Street given

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<v Speaker 1>how much they get paid. But it's not, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>a great lifestyle. The work life balance is completely messed

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<v Speaker 1>up and hasn't really changed dramatically. Uh, you know, despite

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<v Speaker 1>again what they say they're trying to do and pretending

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<v Speaker 1>to try to do. So, you know, I hate to

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<v Speaker 1>be a downer on this, but you know the fact is,

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<v Speaker 1>there's a long, long way to go on this. I

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<v Speaker 1>want to jump in here. We got some breaking news.

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<v Speaker 1>Apple said that it's preparing to get made in US chips, uh,

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<v Speaker 1>or I should say made in US chips in a

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<v Speaker 1>pivot from Asia. Supply. These chips are going to come

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<v Speaker 1>from Arizona. Um. We're gonna get more on that in

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<v Speaker 1>just a minute. For though, I want to go back

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<v Speaker 1>to you Bill and talk a little bit about the

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<v Speaker 1>culture at g because for years, this was a place

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<v Speaker 1>that speaking of cultures, yeah, I mean your newest book

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<v Speaker 1>is about e UM. For years, this was a great

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<v Speaker 1>place to work, especially if your upper management. You talk

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<v Speaker 1>a little bit about how the culture they're allowed. For

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<v Speaker 1>the downfall of G well, you know, my my first

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<v Speaker 1>job out of business school, uh in was working at

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<v Speaker 1>G Capital, financing leverage buyouts of all things, which was

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<v Speaker 1>sort of like the last thing I would have ever

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<v Speaker 1>expected to be doing in my life at that point.

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<v Speaker 1>I had been a reporter and have gone to business school,

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<v Speaker 1>and then I was working at G Capital financing LBOs

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<v Speaker 1>around the corner from here, and then I went and

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<v Speaker 1>worked for the chief credit officer of G Capital up

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<v Speaker 1>in Stanford, Connecticut. I always found g E to be

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<v Speaker 1>you know, quote unquote corporate. You know, I wasn't necessarily

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<v Speaker 1>a real corporate guy, but I felt it felt corporate.

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<v Speaker 1>You know, there were there were there were HR departments

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<v Speaker 1>before you know Wall Street firms at HR departments. You know,

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<v Speaker 1>there were uh lots of benefits and perquisites. You know,

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<v Speaker 1>I got a company car, you know, I got to

0:12:03.360 --> 0:12:06.280
<v Speaker 1>take these trips and go on golf outings and things

0:12:06.280 --> 0:12:08.880
<v Speaker 1>like that, and it was sort of like Rara and

0:12:08.960 --> 0:12:12.640
<v Speaker 1>really sort of American and sort of kind of white bready,

0:12:12.720 --> 0:12:16.120
<v Speaker 1>you know, and you know it's okay. Uh, you know,

0:12:16.200 --> 0:12:18.000
<v Speaker 1>I like the people. I really like the people I

0:12:18.040 --> 0:12:20.640
<v Speaker 1>worked with. I think they are quite unique group of people.

0:12:20.800 --> 0:12:24.720
<v Speaker 1>And I really enjoyed interviewing the people for this book.

0:12:24.760 --> 0:12:27.640
<v Speaker 1>You are from everybody from Jack, Jeff m Malt, you know,

0:12:27.760 --> 0:12:32.120
<v Speaker 1>even people like David Zaslov and David Calhoun and Dave Cody,

0:12:32.200 --> 0:12:36.320
<v Speaker 1>that the David's who all have become very successful. They

0:12:36.600 --> 0:12:40.040
<v Speaker 1>they just loved Jack and they loved working at GE.

0:12:40.200 --> 0:12:42.160
<v Speaker 1>I mean it's incredible. I mean, having worked at a

0:12:42.160 --> 0:12:44.199
<v Speaker 1>bunch of Wall Street firms, you know, and interviewed a

0:12:44.200 --> 0:12:46.600
<v Speaker 1>bunch of people working in all sorts of Wall Street firms,

0:12:46.840 --> 0:12:49.680
<v Speaker 1>you rarely get anybody who says how excited and glad

0:12:49.760 --> 0:12:52.120
<v Speaker 1>they were to be working at Wall Street. But people

0:12:52.240 --> 0:12:55.520
<v Speaker 1>really liked working at GE for for a long time,

0:12:55.600 --> 0:12:58.520
<v Speaker 1>or at least during this you know phase, until things

0:12:58.520 --> 0:13:02.400
<v Speaker 1>sort of unwound and uh, you know, did did did

0:13:02.679 --> 0:13:05.000
<v Speaker 1>Jack Welch? And I do feel like the history around

0:13:05.080 --> 0:13:09.680
<v Speaker 1>Jack Welch is being challenge and challenge and I think

0:13:09.920 --> 0:13:12.600
<v Speaker 1>I think, I think it's un unfair to be honest

0:13:12.640 --> 0:13:15.480
<v Speaker 1>with you, I I you know, I know David Gillis

0:13:15.520 --> 0:13:18.160
<v Speaker 1>wrote that book about that, and uh, you know, I

0:13:18.160 --> 0:13:21.079
<v Speaker 1>don't think that's particularly fair. You know, I spent a

0:13:21.120 --> 0:13:23.160
<v Speaker 1>lot of time with Jack. I worked there. I spent

0:13:23.200 --> 0:13:25.800
<v Speaker 1>a lot of time interviewing. I spent with time talking

0:13:25.800 --> 0:13:29.240
<v Speaker 1>to Jeff Immalt and other senior executives and board members.

0:13:29.760 --> 0:13:31.880
<v Speaker 1>And I worked there, so I really got a feel

0:13:31.920 --> 0:13:34.160
<v Speaker 1>for the place. And I think Jack created something that

0:13:34.240 --> 0:13:38.400
<v Speaker 1>was really quite special. He wasn't anything remotely like a saint.

0:13:38.440 --> 0:13:41.400
<v Speaker 1>He'd been he'd probably been canceled long ago and you

0:13:41.440 --> 0:13:45.679
<v Speaker 1>know today, but he took over a company that was

0:13:45.720 --> 0:13:49.760
<v Speaker 1>worth twelve billion dollars and and and it became worth

0:13:50.880 --> 0:13:53.640
<v Speaker 1>fifty billion when he left. Now, you know, that's quite

0:13:53.640 --> 0:13:56.560
<v Speaker 1>an accomplishment. So the world's most valuable company right at

0:13:56.600 --> 0:13:58.520
<v Speaker 1>one at one point, the world's most valuable company, the

0:13:58.559 --> 0:14:02.320
<v Speaker 1>world's most respected company was It was kind of like Apple, Google,

0:14:02.640 --> 0:14:06.440
<v Speaker 1>Microsoft all rolled into one. I feel like earning season

0:14:06.480 --> 0:14:09.360
<v Speaker 1>would kick off officially when reported it was the bell

0:14:09.400 --> 0:14:12.000
<v Speaker 1>Weather exactly. You know if the oldest member of the

0:14:12.080 --> 0:14:16.120
<v Speaker 1>Dow it was, you know, it was, and the technology

0:14:16.160 --> 0:14:20.480
<v Speaker 1>that came out of that place was extraordinary. Yeah, I

0:14:20.520 --> 0:14:22.200
<v Speaker 1>wish we had more time. We come back and talk

0:14:22.240 --> 0:14:24.400
<v Speaker 1>some more whenever you like. All right, we would love it.

0:14:24.400 --> 0:14:26.720
<v Speaker 1>We would love it. Bill Cohen um with us. You

0:14:26.760 --> 0:14:28.800
<v Speaker 1>need to check out his new book because so much

0:14:28.800 --> 0:14:31.800
<v Speaker 1>has been talked about, studied about, written about when it

0:14:31.840 --> 0:14:34.800
<v Speaker 1>comes to the company known as General Electric. His book

0:14:34.840 --> 0:14:37.160
<v Speaker 1>is called Power Failure, The Rise and Fall of an

0:14:37.160 --> 0:14:38.120
<v Speaker 1>American Icon.