WEBVTT - #296 Guest Host Chris Fabricant with Gilbert Poole 0:00:00.320 --> 0:00:03.559 I'm Jason Flamm, host of Wrongful Conviction, but this week, 0:00:03.680 --> 0:00:06.880 instead of hearing me, I've invited a true genius from 0:00:06.880 --> 0:00:10.080 the legal world to bring their knowledge and expertise to 0:00:10.160 --> 0:00:13.600 the conversation as guest host here at Wrongful Conviction. We 0:00:13.680 --> 0:00:16.840 believe that sharing the stories of the incarcerated innocent can 0:00:16.880 --> 0:00:20.400 create real change in the world, even beyond what these 0:00:20.440 --> 0:00:23.000 real life legal superheroes do every day. 0:00:27.080 --> 0:00:30.440 On June seventh, nineteen eighty eight, joggers were out on 0:00:30.480 --> 0:00:33.440 a wooded trail in Pontiai, Michigan when they discovered the 0:00:33.479 --> 0:00:36.680 body of thirty five year old Robert Mihia. He had 0:00:36.720 --> 0:00:40.239 been stabbed to death. Mahia was last seen at a 0:00:40.280 --> 0:00:42.400 bar a couple of nights before, and he left. 0:00:42.240 --> 0:00:42.960 With a stranger. 0:00:43.720 --> 0:00:47.480 Witnesses described that person to police, who created a composite 0:00:47.520 --> 0:00:49.720 sketch and published it in the local newspaper. 0:00:50.280 --> 0:00:51.880 There were no other leads. 0:00:52.920 --> 0:00:55.760 Connie Cook lived in Pontiac back then, and when she 0:00:55.840 --> 0:00:58.760 saw the suspect sketch and heard about the reward money, 0:00:59.080 --> 0:01:02.200 she decided to turn in her ex boyfriend, Gilbert Pool. 0:01:02.960 --> 0:01:05.720 She told police he'd confessed to a murder shortly before 0:01:05.760 --> 0:01:09.400 they moved together to North Carolina. Police went to North 0:01:09.400 --> 0:01:12.120 Carolina and arrested Gilbert and took him back to Michigan 0:01:12.200 --> 0:01:15.480 for trial. Among the other evidence that was presented, the 0:01:15.520 --> 0:01:19.360 state called forensic identologist doctor Alan Warnick to explain the 0:01:19.400 --> 0:01:23.720 supposed bitemark found on the victim's body. Even at the time, 0:01:23.840 --> 0:01:25.959 there was a suspicion of this type of junk science, 0:01:26.000 --> 0:01:29.520 but doctor Warnick's testimony was presented to Gilbert's jury as 0:01:29.680 --> 0:01:34.160 scientific fact. Gilbert looked nothing like the suspect's sketch, and 0:01:34.200 --> 0:01:36.479 his blood type did not match any of the blood 0:01:36.560 --> 0:01:40.560 found near the victim's body. But on June sixth, nineteen 0:01:40.600 --> 0:01:44.760 eighty nine, Gilbert Poole was convicted of murder sentenced to 0:01:44.800 --> 0:01:47.200 life in prison without the possibility of parole. 0:01:48.640 --> 0:01:49.960 This is wrongful conviction. 0:02:00.920 --> 0:02:01.040 Hi. 0:02:01.080 --> 0:02:04.560 I'm Chris Fabricat. I'm the director of Strategic Litigation at 0:02:04.600 --> 0:02:07.360 the Innocence Project in New York and author of the 0:02:07.400 --> 0:02:10.600 book Junk Science and the American Criminal Justice System. 0:02:11.560 --> 0:02:15.600 Hello, my name is Gilbert Poole. I was recently exonerated 0:02:15.680 --> 0:02:19.040 through the Innocence Project and the Conviction Integrity Unit in 0:02:19.040 --> 0:02:19.880 the state of Michigan. 0:02:20.240 --> 0:02:23.919 Hi, I'm Marla Mitchell Sisian and I'm the former director 0:02:24.000 --> 0:02:29.120 of the WMU Cooley Innocence Project and currently serving of 0:02:29.240 --> 0:02:30.680 council with the office. 0:02:31.040 --> 0:02:31.919 And mister Poole. 0:02:32.040 --> 0:02:34.040 Tell us how you got involved in the criminal legal 0:02:34.080 --> 0:02:36.320 system and what led to your original conviction. 0:02:37.160 --> 0:02:40.919 I was briefly living in Michigan. I moved from Michigan 0:02:40.960 --> 0:02:45.040 back down in North Carolina in nineteen eighty eight, and 0:02:45.120 --> 0:02:48.040 I met a girl up here in Michigan and she 0:02:48.160 --> 0:02:52.520 went with me back down in North Carolina. Subsequently, our 0:02:52.560 --> 0:02:56.600 relationship ended and we broke up. She came back to Michigan. 0:02:57.760 --> 0:03:00.360 Unbeknownst to me, she had went to the police down 0:03:00.400 --> 0:03:03.600 there and told them that I had committed a crime 0:03:03.639 --> 0:03:04.200 in Michigan. 0:03:04.800 --> 0:03:08.040 And this was out of nowhere. Had you been to 0:03:08.120 --> 0:03:12.880 Pontiac and did you think that your girlfriend might say 0:03:12.919 --> 0:03:14.119 something like this about you. 0:03:14.960 --> 0:03:18.320 I was twenty two years old and I was working 0:03:18.320 --> 0:03:21.960 as a plumber in North Carolina doing plumbing repair work. 0:03:22.120 --> 0:03:25.560 I was briefly living in Michigan. I had moved up 0:03:25.560 --> 0:03:29.280 here from North Carolina, but I found it hard to 0:03:29.360 --> 0:03:31.920 maintain employment up here because I was not from the 0:03:32.000 --> 0:03:35.760 state and it's a union state. You had to establish 0:03:35.800 --> 0:03:38.040 a five year residency in the state before you could 0:03:38.080 --> 0:03:42.280 join the union. So I decided this wasn't a place 0:03:42.280 --> 0:03:44.440 for me, and I moved back to North Carolina. My 0:03:44.520 --> 0:03:48.880 girlfriend and I, Connie Cook. When we separated. It wasn't 0:03:48.880 --> 0:03:53.600 a friendly separation, to put it lately, and I didn't 0:03:53.600 --> 0:03:56.400 think it was beyond her to make up something, but 0:03:56.480 --> 0:04:00.200 I didn't think it was to this degree or here. 0:04:01.520 --> 0:04:04.480 After we had separated, I was out working and I 0:04:04.560 --> 0:04:07.960 came home from work one day and my door was open. 0:04:08.160 --> 0:04:11.120 Everything in the mobile home was gone, and I thought, well, okay, 0:04:11.280 --> 0:04:13.920 she came back and stole everything I had. There's no 0:04:14.000 --> 0:04:16.200 note or anything, but that's okay. If she needed that, 0:04:16.200 --> 0:04:20.400 that's fine. Moving on. It wasn't until a couple of 0:04:20.440 --> 0:04:24.279 weeks later that the police came to my workplace and 0:04:24.360 --> 0:04:28.480 serve me with this warrant, and then everything made sense. Then, oh, okay, 0:04:29.480 --> 0:04:34.000 she used me to basically get a ride back to 0:04:34.080 --> 0:04:38.679 Michigan and claim a reward that was open for a 0:04:38.760 --> 0:04:43.560 murder case that was unsolved in Michigan. She has me 0:04:43.680 --> 0:04:46.839 confessing to a murder six months before it actually happened. 0:04:47.160 --> 0:04:48.000 It's a problem. 0:04:48.560 --> 0:04:50.919 They took her in and they gave her a polygraph test, 0:04:51.279 --> 0:04:56.240 so she worked with the polygraph examiner until they came 0:04:56.360 --> 0:04:58.040 up with a test that she could pass. 0:04:58.680 --> 0:05:01.799 Well, let's bring in Marla talk a little bit about 0:05:02.080 --> 0:05:05.480 the crime that mister Pool really had no idea what 0:05:05.520 --> 0:05:08.080 the details were. Marla, can you tell us a little 0:05:08.120 --> 0:05:11.040 bit about the crime that mister Poole was ultimately charged with. 0:05:11.720 --> 0:05:17.160 Yes, So, mister Poole was convicted of murdering a man 0:05:17.240 --> 0:05:24.680 in Pontiac, Michigan. And mister Mieha was actually pretty well 0:05:24.720 --> 0:05:28.479 known in the Pontiac community at that time. He had 0:05:28.520 --> 0:05:31.320 worked for Pontiac and he had worked for the county 0:05:31.880 --> 0:05:35.960 in a variety of government jobs, and he was actually 0:05:36.680 --> 0:05:41.839 pretty popular individual at the time. He was living what 0:05:41.920 --> 0:05:43.919 would have been considered at that time sort of a 0:05:43.960 --> 0:05:47.760 double life, meaning he was a gay man in Pontiac, 0:05:47.839 --> 0:05:51.599 Michigan in nineteen eighty eight, and he frequented a gay bar, 0:05:51.920 --> 0:05:55.679 which was the last place he was seen alive. So 0:05:56.120 --> 0:06:01.080 Miha had left with a stranger that evening. Stranger, through 0:06:01.120 --> 0:06:04.960 the narrative, became mister Poole. Gil became a suspect when 0:06:04.960 --> 0:06:09.400 his ex girlfriend Connie Cook said, I have information about 0:06:09.400 --> 0:06:13.039 a murder which at that point in time when she 0:06:13.240 --> 0:06:17.960 came forward the murder, the case of gone cold for 0:06:18.000 --> 0:06:20.680 about seven or eight months, and that's when mister Pool 0:06:20.760 --> 0:06:21.760 became the suspect. 0:06:22.880 --> 0:06:27.560 And so, mister Poole, tell us about when you first 0:06:27.640 --> 0:06:32.279 learned that you weren't just going to be able to 0:06:32.320 --> 0:06:34.560 take care of this quick and go back to work. 0:06:34.920 --> 0:06:38.000 What was the first moment where you recognized that you 0:06:38.040 --> 0:06:42.240 were beginning a long, slow slide into the criminal justice system. 0:06:42.960 --> 0:06:46.880 After I got back to Michigan things, Yeah, we really 0:06:46.920 --> 0:06:51.880 were setting in back in Oakland County jail. The investigator 0:06:51.920 --> 0:06:59.080 started taking samples from me, hair samples, blood samples, bite impressions, 0:07:01.120 --> 0:07:02.120 dental molds. 0:07:02.360 --> 0:07:05.279 A dental mold. We'll definitely get to the dental mold. 0:07:05.360 --> 0:07:07.719 So they were starting to cook up the junk science 0:07:07.800 --> 0:07:08.279 right away. 0:07:08.839 --> 0:07:13.280 Yeah. Yeah, And I hired an attorney in Michigan who 0:07:13.280 --> 0:07:17.040 contacted me once. While I was introduced to the county jail. 0:07:17.920 --> 0:07:21.800 They had composite drawings ran in a newspaper that was 0:07:21.840 --> 0:07:24.640 not me. He showed me the newspaper he said, look, 0:07:24.680 --> 0:07:26.640 this is the paper that they had. It doesn't even 0:07:26.680 --> 0:07:29.600 match you. It's not even close. And it was just 0:07:31.000 --> 0:07:35.160 a matter of a beneful girlfriend and started a process 0:07:35.200 --> 0:07:36.600 that we're just going to have to take care of. 0:07:36.720 --> 0:07:39.520 But not to worry he was seeing. He seemed to 0:07:39.560 --> 0:07:41.920 be kind of nonchalant about it. So it was kind 0:07:41.960 --> 0:07:44.840 of calling to me a little bit. But as Tom 0:07:44.920 --> 0:07:49.000 moved on in the months in the county jail, crep 0:07:49.080 --> 0:07:53.560 up on me and then it became a lot more serious. 0:07:54.040 --> 0:07:56.480 Marlin, let me bring you in to talk a little 0:07:56.480 --> 0:07:58.720 bit about the investigation that was going on, where this 0:07:58.840 --> 0:08:01.960 composite sketch came from, and who the people were that 0:08:02.080 --> 0:08:06.800 saw the victim on the night the victim was murdered. 0:08:07.520 --> 0:08:10.560 Yes, so the victim was a regular at this bar 0:08:10.920 --> 0:08:14.800 and most of the patrons were individuals that were either 0:08:14.880 --> 0:08:19.120 his friends or knew him. And so obviously one of 0:08:19.200 --> 0:08:21.800 the first things that the police did to investigate this 0:08:21.960 --> 0:08:24.320 case is to interview everyone that was in the bar 0:08:24.640 --> 0:08:28.920 that evening, and they all provided descriptions, and there were 0:08:28.960 --> 0:08:33.560 two composite drawings that came out in the local newspaper, 0:08:33.679 --> 0:08:38.240 the Oakland Press, and as mister Poole stated, they didn't 0:08:38.280 --> 0:08:42.800 look anything like mister Pool. Unfortunately, when Connie Cook served 0:08:42.880 --> 0:08:46.440 mister Poole up on a silver platter. What the government 0:08:46.520 --> 0:08:50.240 did and what the police investigation did is it focused 0:08:50.280 --> 0:08:55.559 then on mister Pool. This problem was compounded because instead 0:08:55.760 --> 0:08:59.440 of the composites that were published in the newspaper a 0:08:59.480 --> 0:09:04.760 week after or the murder, the government produced new drawings. 0:09:05.600 --> 0:09:08.959 We to this day do not know where they came from, 0:09:09.559 --> 0:09:16.480 and they proceeded to suggest to the witnesses and the 0:09:16.600 --> 0:09:20.040 jury that these were the drawings that were in the newspaper, 0:09:20.520 --> 0:09:26.200 and those drawings looked exactly like mister Poole Wow. In fact, 0:09:26.280 --> 0:09:30.559 to this day, I personally believe that they drew those 0:09:30.640 --> 0:09:35.760 drawings from photographs that they obtained through their investigation. 0:09:36.920 --> 0:09:42.600 So they took a new sketch and essentially painted a 0:09:42.600 --> 0:09:48.319 bullseye around their new target and got their identification that way. No, 0:09:48.440 --> 0:09:52.480 and we all know that eyewitness misidentification as a leading 0:09:52.520 --> 0:09:56.760 contributing factor to wrongful conviction. It's played a role in 0:09:56.880 --> 0:10:00.720 nearly seventy percent of all convictions that and overturned by 0:10:00.800 --> 0:10:07.480 DNA evidence. But usually those are honest mistakes by well 0:10:07.520 --> 0:10:12.480 intentioned actors that are using a suggestive lineup. It's usually 0:10:12.480 --> 0:10:19.400 not manipulating an image to gain an identification. Mister Pool 0:10:19.440 --> 0:10:21.520 were you aware that this was going on at the time. 0:10:21.720 --> 0:10:27.040 Absolutely. I was poking my lawyer in the side. I said, listen, 0:10:27.080 --> 0:10:32.160 object to this, and he did a very poor job 0:10:32.800 --> 0:10:36.240 during trial of getting to the bottom of the composite 0:10:36.400 --> 0:10:42.160 drawing switcheroo that they that they came to. And I 0:10:42.200 --> 0:10:46.240 wanted to jump in when you said misidentification. This was 0:10:46.280 --> 0:10:51.680 not a misidentification. This was absolutely a fabrication. A miss 0:10:52.000 --> 0:10:57.120 identification suggests that somebody made a mistake. I don't think 0:10:57.160 --> 0:10:59.720 there were any mistakes made here. I think this was 0:11:00.520 --> 0:11:03.520 planned out and intentional. And if you look at it 0:11:03.559 --> 0:11:08.160 from that perspective, all the puzzles fit like they orchestrated 0:11:08.200 --> 0:11:10.400 this whole thing to get a conviction. Yeah. 0:11:10.440 --> 0:11:13.600 Absolutely, you know. I mean, and I didn't mean to 0:11:13.600 --> 0:11:15.680 suggest that there was some sort of a mistake, you know. 0:11:15.960 --> 0:11:18.960 I just hadn't heard something like a new composite spetch 0:11:19.000 --> 0:11:22.120 to match the suspect before. And I've been around the block, 0:11:22.320 --> 0:11:25.560 so that's a new one for me, you know. And 0:11:25.559 --> 0:11:27.240 then we're going to bring in the junk science in 0:11:27.280 --> 0:11:29.319 a minute. But I want to just go back, Marli, 0:11:29.360 --> 0:11:31.079 if you could just talk a little bit about how 0:11:31.080 --> 0:11:34.520 the victim was discovered and some of the evidence that 0:11:34.720 --> 0:11:37.400 was alledgs to have been found on the victim's body 0:11:37.440 --> 0:11:39.439 and ultimately associated with mister Poole. 0:11:40.360 --> 0:11:44.800 Sure the victim left the bar at closing time on 0:11:44.880 --> 0:11:49.120 a Sunday night Monday morning, and the next day he 0:11:49.200 --> 0:11:53.240 failed to show up for work and towards the end 0:11:53.240 --> 0:11:57.319 of that day this was very out of character for him. 0:11:57.679 --> 0:12:01.680 He was considered a missing person and he was discovered 0:12:01.720 --> 0:12:04.079 on a running path by two runners who were out 0:12:04.080 --> 0:12:06.760 for an early morning run, and of course they called 0:12:06.760 --> 0:12:12.679 the police immediately. They identified his body rather quickly and 0:12:14.000 --> 0:12:18.520 when they took him. When they arrived at the crime scene, 0:12:18.640 --> 0:12:20.600 there was a lot of blood because he had been 0:12:20.640 --> 0:12:26.040 stabbed to death, but there was also less concentrated blood 0:12:26.200 --> 0:12:31.160 around the body, so they as a result, they collected 0:12:31.200 --> 0:12:35.960 some blood droplets from some stones and some grass near 0:12:36.040 --> 0:12:42.679 the body. This is another actually extremely heartbreaking piece of 0:12:42.720 --> 0:12:47.640 this case in terms of having this information back in 0:12:47.720 --> 0:12:51.200 nineteen eighty eight and how it was treated. So they 0:12:51.280 --> 0:12:55.920 used blood typing at the time, which only allows us 0:12:56.200 --> 0:13:01.720 to put ourselves in a category of undreds, thousands, sometimes 0:13:01.760 --> 0:13:05.680 millions of people, and they determined that the victim's blood 0:13:05.840 --> 0:13:09.720 was oh and that there was also a foreign blood 0:13:09.720 --> 0:13:13.280 type present B type blood, which, as we now know 0:13:14.320 --> 0:13:15.520 mister Pool, is a B. 0:13:16.200 --> 0:13:19.480 He was excluded from the evidence before the trial. Right, 0:13:20.320 --> 0:13:23.680 that's what we're telling here, Right, So, mister Pool, you 0:13:23.800 --> 0:13:26.959 have at this point you've given up all forcibly had 0:13:27.200 --> 0:13:30.120 blood samples taken from you, hair samples taken from you, 0:13:30.200 --> 0:13:35.400 a dental mold taken from you. You've been an identification 0:13:35.480 --> 0:13:39.520 has been manufactured against you. Your girlfriend has falsely accused 0:13:39.520 --> 0:13:42.400 you of a crime. You're in jail and you're about 0:13:42.440 --> 0:13:45.920 to start trial. Tell us about when the dentist came 0:13:45.960 --> 0:13:46.640 for your teeth. 0:13:47.160 --> 0:13:55.120 Well, forensic odentologist, self proclaimed expert in BikeE marks came 0:13:55.320 --> 0:14:02.440 to the county jail and took marks in wax. I 0:14:02.520 --> 0:14:07.640 say he's self proclaimed. I guess he was certified by 0:14:07.920 --> 0:14:12.440 a Board of American Board of Odentologists. 0:14:11.400 --> 0:14:14.040 By foe junk scientists certified him. 0:14:14.320 --> 0:14:19.320 Right. But the certification comes in the form of certifying 0:14:19.880 --> 0:14:25.640 identification of remains that are unidentifiable otherwise. So if you 0:14:25.720 --> 0:14:28.200 had a body that was burnt, and you could take 0:14:28.400 --> 0:14:32.200 the teeth from that body and compare them to dental 0:14:32.200 --> 0:14:37.840 records and identify that victim but to take that science 0:14:38.640 --> 0:14:41.560 and stretch it to say, okay, well we're going to 0:14:41.640 --> 0:14:45.120 take a bruise. It's essentially what they found on the 0:14:45.200 --> 0:14:48.840 victim was a bruise, and I'd match it to somebody's 0:14:48.920 --> 0:14:53.400 teeth and say those teeth matched to bruise is a 0:14:53.480 --> 0:14:59.440 far stretch. It's not a solid substrate like wax that 0:14:59.480 --> 0:15:05.000 they're taking my impressions from. Skin is fluid, it's movable, 0:15:05.080 --> 0:15:08.120 it's elastic. It's going to stretch, and so you're not 0:15:08.200 --> 0:15:13.080 going to have depth or angulation, registration, all these things 0:15:13.080 --> 0:15:16.160 that would come into play when you're identifying. 0:15:15.560 --> 0:15:17.760 A course bitemark. 0:15:17.760 --> 0:15:22.000 Evidence is subject to speculation masquerading as scientific evidence. As 0:15:22.040 --> 0:15:25.280 mister Poole just said, skin does move and it changes, 0:15:25.360 --> 0:15:27.640 and that makes it nearly impossible to say for sure 0:15:27.680 --> 0:15:32.200 which teeth made which marks. More fundamentally, these forensic dentists 0:15:32.200 --> 0:15:34.280 don't even know a bite mark from any other type 0:15:34.320 --> 0:15:39.840 of injury. And beyond that, skin changes constantly in a 0:15:39.920 --> 0:15:43.480 decomposing body, and it changes constantly in a healing victim. 0:15:43.680 --> 0:15:46.640 So teeth that might match one day or even one 0:15:46.680 --> 0:15:50.800 hour might not match the next hour or the next day. 0:15:50.920 --> 0:15:54.160 The Friends of godentologists in this case was doctor Allan Warnick, 0:15:54.320 --> 0:15:57.480 the only one practicing in Michigan at that time. Any 0:15:57.480 --> 0:16:00.080 good defensi lawyer is supposed to question the expert or 0:16:00.080 --> 0:16:02.680 its credentials in front of the jury in a process 0:16:02.720 --> 0:16:05.680 called vordere. So today, if we were listening to this 0:16:05.800 --> 0:16:08.280 case today, if a jury was hearing this case today, 0:16:08.640 --> 0:16:11.200 they would learn that this type of evidence that doctor 0:16:11.240 --> 0:16:15.400 Allan Warnick was about to convict mister Poole with has 0:16:15.440 --> 0:16:19.160 been responsible for at least thirty five known wrongful convictions 0:16:19.160 --> 0:16:21.880 and indictments. The jury would also learn that the National 0:16:21.920 --> 0:16:26.240 Academy of Sciences calls forensic identatology junk science and gross speculation, 0:16:26.440 --> 0:16:29.840 as has every other scientific entity that has ever examined 0:16:30.280 --> 0:16:34.400 this fundamental junk science. I wrote an entire book on 0:16:34.440 --> 0:16:36.720 the subject of junk science, and I've been on another 0:16:36.760 --> 0:16:40.720 of our podcast Junk Science, talking about the outrageous practice 0:16:40.800 --> 0:16:44.680 of bitemark identification and matching. But let's get back to 0:16:44.720 --> 0:16:47.360 mister Poole's case. Despite the fact that he and his 0:16:47.400 --> 0:16:50.280 lawyer both knew that this wasn't a credible witness, doctor 0:16:50.320 --> 0:16:52.800 Allan Warnick was nevertheless allowed to get up on the 0:16:52.800 --> 0:16:56.240 witness stand, raise his right hand, and testify as a 0:16:56.320 --> 0:16:59.760 so called expert practicing in a valid field of forensic 0:16:59.760 --> 0:17:00.480 science sciences. 0:17:01.000 --> 0:17:03.600 So when he gets on the stand and you know, 0:17:03.680 --> 0:17:06.080 with his little white lab coat on, and says, well, 0:17:06.280 --> 0:17:09.399 the odds of winning the lottery were better than it 0:17:09.560 --> 0:17:12.040 not being mister Poole, That's exactly what he told the 0:17:12.119 --> 0:17:15.920 jury word for word. So the jury hears that, which 0:17:15.960 --> 0:17:20.199 is a personal opinion, but they're instructed to regard it 0:17:20.240 --> 0:17:23.639 as a truth. How do I win? How do I 0:17:23.680 --> 0:17:24.200 come back that? 0:17:37.359 --> 0:17:41.760 So let's take us from the moment of the opening 0:17:41.800 --> 0:17:46.919 statement and describe how you experienced your trial as this 0:17:47.080 --> 0:17:48.000 nightmare unfolded. 0:17:49.040 --> 0:17:52.320 I believe I'll see my attorney twice before the trial. 0:17:52.880 --> 0:17:55.760 Both times it was less than ten minutes. He was 0:17:55.800 --> 0:17:58.879 a paid attorney at trial. He gave me a notepad 0:17:58.920 --> 0:18:00.760 and a piece of paper here, if you want to 0:18:00.800 --> 0:18:02.919 make notes, just write it down and show it to me. 0:18:03.359 --> 0:18:07.879 And I was kind of keeping score. Well, well okay, 0:18:07.920 --> 0:18:10.320 well that didn't sound good for me. So you know 0:18:10.440 --> 0:18:14.320 that was one against me. Well, well that didn't sound good. 0:18:14.359 --> 0:18:18.720 There's another mark against me. While the marks kept adding 0:18:18.800 --> 0:18:22.160 up and it doesn't look good. Column here on. I'm 0:18:22.200 --> 0:18:28.520 getting very nervous as lack of preparation, i would say, 0:18:29.720 --> 0:18:33.640 was coming to light, and it was not looking good 0:18:33.680 --> 0:18:34.360 for the home. 0:18:34.160 --> 0:18:37.440 Team, Okay for the audience with their own score seats 0:18:37.480 --> 0:18:40.560 at home. The evidence presented against mister Poole was limited 0:18:40.600 --> 0:18:44.800 to this, the doctored up composite sketch, his ex girlfriend's 0:18:44.800 --> 0:18:48.080 false testimony that he admitted to the crime, and the 0:18:48.160 --> 0:18:53.119 junk science the bitemark evidence. A Michigan State Police scientists 0:18:53.119 --> 0:18:55.760 also conducted blood type testing at the crime scene and 0:18:55.840 --> 0:18:59.159 did not find any type AB blood that would have 0:18:59.200 --> 0:19:03.560 matched to mister Pool. Due to illness, this scientist did 0:19:03.600 --> 0:19:08.920 not testify, and instead of delaying the trial to get 0:19:08.920 --> 0:19:12.240 this crucial testimony in front of the jury, mister Poole's 0:19:12.280 --> 0:19:16.560 lawyers just entered the paper report into evidence, which isn't 0:19:16.720 --> 0:19:19.919 close to us convincing. So yeah, it was definitely not 0:19:20.000 --> 0:19:22.800 looking good for the home team. So at this point, 0:19:22.840 --> 0:19:25.199 mister Poole, you decided to testify on your own behalf. 0:19:25.960 --> 0:19:28.000 Take us through that experience and how you were feeling 0:19:29.160 --> 0:19:29.840 at this time. 0:19:30.480 --> 0:19:35.639 I'm sunk, I am absolutely beside myself. I'm in a 0:19:35.680 --> 0:19:40.199 panic state. When the prosecutor ended his his presentation. The 0:19:40.320 --> 0:19:43.879 judge asked my attorney to put on his witnesses. My 0:19:43.960 --> 0:19:47.880 attorney says, yeah, no, we're good defense. Rest He put 0:19:47.920 --> 0:19:51.400 on no witnesses at all, whatsoever. I said, wait, wait 0:19:51.400 --> 0:19:53.440 a minute, wait a minute, you're not going to put 0:19:53.480 --> 0:19:57.159 on any witnesses at all. Somebody's got to go up 0:19:57.160 --> 0:19:59.760 with my defense. I'll testify. He said, well, I went 0:19:59.840 --> 0:20:03.120 to you're getting on the stand. The prosecutor is really 0:20:03.160 --> 0:20:06.560 gonna I don't care. Somebody's got to stand up for me. 0:20:07.080 --> 0:20:10.120 So I demanded to be put on the stand, and 0:20:10.320 --> 0:20:10.920 I got up. 0:20:11.000 --> 0:20:14.680 So let me interrupt you here for a second. Your 0:20:15.200 --> 0:20:18.679 attorney had not talked to you about whether or not 0:20:18.760 --> 0:20:21.840 you're going to testify until that moment. You had no 0:20:21.880 --> 0:20:26.960 conversation about that. No, he didn't prep you for any 0:20:27.040 --> 0:20:30.920 of this testimony. No, so you had no idea what 0:20:30.960 --> 0:20:35.160 you might say or might not say. No, and he 0:20:35.320 --> 0:20:39.320 just advised you not to do it, and that was it, right. 0:20:40.280 --> 0:20:43.080 But I said, no, no, no, no, I'm getting on the stand. 0:20:43.119 --> 0:20:46.120 Somebody's got to say I didn't do it. Somebody's got 0:20:46.160 --> 0:20:49.679 to see me, my reaction or whatever I mean, however 0:20:49.720 --> 0:20:53.600 it plays out, I can't be convicted and just sit 0:20:53.680 --> 0:20:57.479 here and not say anything. If I'm going to go down, 0:20:57.560 --> 0:20:59.800 I'm want to go down kicking and screaming. So I 0:20:59.800 --> 0:21:03.240 did my best. I got on the stand and against 0:21:03.280 --> 0:21:10.200 the prosecutors manipulations of wording or his learned techniques of 0:21:11.440 --> 0:21:18.760 interviewing somebody, I did my best. But I guess it 0:21:18.800 --> 0:21:20.280 didn't translate to the jury. 0:21:20.600 --> 0:21:22.840 It's very you know, I mean that anybody can be 0:21:22.920 --> 0:21:27.240 made to sound like a liar under those heightened circumstances. 0:21:27.480 --> 0:21:31.959 And so tell us about was your family at the 0:21:31.960 --> 0:21:34.719 there for the verdict and your testimony? 0:21:35.200 --> 0:21:41.160 You know, due to my attorney's initial response or initial investigation, 0:21:41.920 --> 0:21:45.040 it was just a matter of routine. This is not you. 0:21:45.400 --> 0:21:48.639 The evidence says that's not you. Don't worry about it. 0:21:48.680 --> 0:21:52.840 You'll never be convicted. No, my family's in North Carolina. 0:21:52.920 --> 0:21:55.160 I wasn't going to have them fly up to Michigan. 0:21:55.880 --> 0:21:58.720 So I had no family or friends or anybody. I 0:21:58.720 --> 0:22:00.480 had no support there in the courtroom at all. 0:22:00.600 --> 0:22:00.879 Wow. 0:22:01.080 --> 0:22:04.720 And so you walked into this believing that you know, 0:22:04.920 --> 0:22:07.560 a day or two later you'd be acquitted, go back 0:22:07.600 --> 0:22:08.240 to your life. 0:22:08.400 --> 0:22:12.080 Exactly. I could see that this was orchestrated for a 0:22:12.080 --> 0:22:16.840 conviction of an unsolved murder of a very important person, 0:22:17.640 --> 0:22:21.200 well loved by the community. We're satisfying a community need 0:22:21.240 --> 0:22:27.480 for a conviction. And I was just a young twenty 0:22:27.480 --> 0:22:31.119 two year old kid, so you know I was served up. 0:22:31.359 --> 0:22:35.439 Wow, I mean you were just you know, in a 0:22:35.480 --> 0:22:38.639 life raft on your own, cut from the shore. It 0:22:38.720 --> 0:22:43.000 sounded like, with no support, no family support, no lawyally support, 0:22:43.680 --> 0:22:50.200 no scientific support, you get convicted and sentenced to life 0:22:50.240 --> 0:22:51.520 without parole. Is that right? 0:22:52.520 --> 0:22:52.960 Correct? 0:22:53.240 --> 0:22:55.919 Tell us the role that Hank Clayton played in this trial. 0:22:56.800 --> 0:23:02.920 Hank Clayton was in this storyline as an individual who 0:23:03.119 --> 0:23:06.720 had spent a considerable amount of time with the victim 0:23:07.440 --> 0:23:12.080 leading up to the time of his disappearance, and it 0:23:12.119 --> 0:23:16.320 was basically uncontroverted that on the night of the murder, 0:23:16.400 --> 0:23:20.919 leading up to the murder, that Miha had left the 0:23:20.960 --> 0:23:25.000 bar at least once with mister Clayton and returned with him, 0:23:25.520 --> 0:23:29.959 And in fact, there were witness statements and testimony at 0:23:29.960 --> 0:23:33.840 the prelim that suggested that he in fact left the 0:23:33.920 --> 0:23:39.880 bar with Hank Clayton. The police did question mister Clayton, 0:23:40.080 --> 0:23:44.040 and they did search his truck they did find a knife, 0:23:44.119 --> 0:23:48.520 They didn't find anything unusual in the back of his truck, 0:23:49.119 --> 0:23:52.679 and they pretty much dropped him as a suspect. 0:23:53.119 --> 0:23:55.959 And the victim was stabbed right, so there was no 0:23:56.000 --> 0:23:57.160 testing of this knife. 0:23:57.640 --> 0:24:01.240 There was testing, and they did not find any blood. 0:24:01.440 --> 0:24:05.760 We had an investigator look into his background and he 0:24:06.000 --> 0:24:11.120 was known to threaten people with knives and behave in 0:24:11.160 --> 0:24:13.359 a jealous manner, if you want to call it that. 0:24:13.600 --> 0:24:18.680 We also spent many, many years trying to determine what 0:24:18.720 --> 0:24:23.280 mister Clayton's blood type was. We were unsuccessful in trying 0:24:23.280 --> 0:24:26.840 to determine that, and we had to remind ourselves that 0:24:27.119 --> 0:24:30.880 we might not be able to solve the crime, and 0:24:30.960 --> 0:24:35.600 we had to step back and think through how are 0:24:35.640 --> 0:24:37.639 we going to exonerate mister Poole. 0:24:38.280 --> 0:24:41.520 So, mister Pool, after your sentenced, tell us about your 0:24:41.520 --> 0:24:46.040 life in prison before Marla took on your case. What 0:24:46.160 --> 0:24:48.600 was your appeals like? What was your prison life like? 0:24:49.240 --> 0:24:53.159 I started trying to educate myself as to how I 0:24:53.200 --> 0:24:57.480 got in there, the law, the statutes, what was required 0:24:57.520 --> 0:25:00.960 for a conviction, how do I appeal? Just started ordering 0:25:01.000 --> 0:25:05.000 books and reading case law. I formulated a list of 0:25:05.480 --> 0:25:08.200 I guess I could say demands. I was going to 0:25:08.240 --> 0:25:11.320 make sure I was in control of this of this 0:25:11.440 --> 0:25:14.640 journey here, because leaving it up to my attorney, even 0:25:14.680 --> 0:25:17.320 though when I had paid, did turn out well. The 0:25:17.400 --> 0:25:21.760