1 00:00:00,320 --> 00:00:03,559 Speaker 1: I'm Jason Flamm, host of Wrongful Conviction, but this week, 2 00:00:03,680 --> 00:00:06,880 Speaker 1: instead of hearing me, I've invited a true genius from 3 00:00:06,880 --> 00:00:10,080 Speaker 1: the legal world to bring their knowledge and expertise to 4 00:00:10,160 --> 00:00:13,600 Speaker 1: the conversation as guest host here at Wrongful Conviction. We 5 00:00:13,680 --> 00:00:16,840 Speaker 1: believe that sharing the stories of the incarcerated innocent can 6 00:00:16,880 --> 00:00:20,400 Speaker 1: create real change in the world, even beyond what these 7 00:00:20,440 --> 00:00:23,000 Speaker 1: real life legal superheroes do every day. 8 00:00:27,080 --> 00:00:30,440 Speaker 2: On June seventh, nineteen eighty eight, joggers were out on 9 00:00:30,480 --> 00:00:33,440 Speaker 2: a wooded trail in Pontiai, Michigan when they discovered the 10 00:00:33,479 --> 00:00:36,680 Speaker 2: body of thirty five year old Robert Mihia. He had 11 00:00:36,720 --> 00:00:40,239 Speaker 2: been stabbed to death. Mahia was last seen at a 12 00:00:40,280 --> 00:00:42,400 Speaker 2: bar a couple of nights before, and he left. 13 00:00:42,240 --> 00:00:42,960 Speaker 3: With a stranger. 14 00:00:43,720 --> 00:00:47,480 Speaker 2: Witnesses described that person to police, who created a composite 15 00:00:47,520 --> 00:00:49,720 Speaker 2: sketch and published it in the local newspaper. 16 00:00:50,280 --> 00:00:51,880 Speaker 3: There were no other leads. 17 00:00:52,920 --> 00:00:55,760 Speaker 2: Connie Cook lived in Pontiac back then, and when she 18 00:00:55,840 --> 00:00:58,760 Speaker 2: saw the suspect sketch and heard about the reward money, 19 00:00:59,080 --> 00:01:02,200 Speaker 2: she decided to turn in her ex boyfriend, Gilbert Pool. 20 00:01:02,960 --> 00:01:05,720 Speaker 2: She told police he'd confessed to a murder shortly before 21 00:01:05,760 --> 00:01:09,400 Speaker 2: they moved together to North Carolina. Police went to North 22 00:01:09,400 --> 00:01:12,120 Speaker 2: Carolina and arrested Gilbert and took him back to Michigan 23 00:01:12,200 --> 00:01:15,480 Speaker 2: for trial. Among the other evidence that was presented, the 24 00:01:15,520 --> 00:01:19,360 Speaker 2: state called forensic identologist doctor Alan Warnick to explain the 25 00:01:19,400 --> 00:01:23,720 Speaker 2: supposed bitemark found on the victim's body. Even at the time, 26 00:01:23,840 --> 00:01:25,959 Speaker 2: there was a suspicion of this type of junk science, 27 00:01:26,000 --> 00:01:29,520 Speaker 2: but doctor Warnick's testimony was presented to Gilbert's jury as 28 00:01:29,680 --> 00:01:34,160 Speaker 2: scientific fact. Gilbert looked nothing like the suspect's sketch, and 29 00:01:34,200 --> 00:01:36,479 Speaker 2: his blood type did not match any of the blood 30 00:01:36,560 --> 00:01:40,560 Speaker 2: found near the victim's body. But on June sixth, nineteen 31 00:01:40,600 --> 00:01:44,760 Speaker 2: eighty nine, Gilbert Poole was convicted of murder sentenced to 32 00:01:44,800 --> 00:01:47,200 Speaker 2: life in prison without the possibility of parole. 33 00:01:48,640 --> 00:01:49,960 Speaker 3: This is wrongful conviction. 34 00:02:00,920 --> 00:02:01,040 Speaker 4: Hi. 35 00:02:01,080 --> 00:02:04,560 Speaker 3: I'm Chris Fabricat. I'm the director of Strategic Litigation at 36 00:02:04,600 --> 00:02:07,360 Speaker 3: the Innocence Project in New York and author of the 37 00:02:07,400 --> 00:02:10,600 Speaker 3: book Junk Science and the American Criminal Justice System. 38 00:02:11,560 --> 00:02:15,600 Speaker 5: Hello, my name is Gilbert Poole. I was recently exonerated 39 00:02:15,680 --> 00:02:19,040 Speaker 5: through the Innocence Project and the Conviction Integrity Unit in 40 00:02:19,040 --> 00:02:19,880 Speaker 5: the state of Michigan. 41 00:02:20,240 --> 00:02:23,919 Speaker 4: Hi, I'm Marla Mitchell Sisian and I'm the former director 42 00:02:24,000 --> 00:02:29,120 Speaker 4: of the WMU Cooley Innocence Project and currently serving of 43 00:02:29,240 --> 00:02:30,680 Speaker 4: council with the office. 44 00:02:31,040 --> 00:02:31,919 Speaker 3: And mister Poole. 45 00:02:32,040 --> 00:02:34,040 Speaker 2: Tell us how you got involved in the criminal legal 46 00:02:34,080 --> 00:02:36,320 Speaker 2: system and what led to your original conviction. 47 00:02:37,160 --> 00:02:40,919 Speaker 5: I was briefly living in Michigan. I moved from Michigan 48 00:02:40,960 --> 00:02:45,040 Speaker 5: back down in North Carolina in nineteen eighty eight, and 49 00:02:45,120 --> 00:02:48,040 Speaker 5: I met a girl up here in Michigan and she 50 00:02:48,160 --> 00:02:52,520 Speaker 5: went with me back down in North Carolina. Subsequently, our 51 00:02:52,560 --> 00:02:56,600 Speaker 5: relationship ended and we broke up. She came back to Michigan. 52 00:02:57,760 --> 00:03:00,360 Speaker 5: Unbeknownst to me, she had went to the police down 53 00:03:00,400 --> 00:03:03,600 Speaker 5: there and told them that I had committed a crime 54 00:03:03,639 --> 00:03:04,200 Speaker 5: in Michigan. 55 00:03:04,800 --> 00:03:08,040 Speaker 3: And this was out of nowhere. Had you been to 56 00:03:08,120 --> 00:03:12,880 Speaker 3: Pontiac and did you think that your girlfriend might say 57 00:03:12,919 --> 00:03:14,119 Speaker 3: something like this about you. 58 00:03:14,960 --> 00:03:18,320 Speaker 5: I was twenty two years old and I was working 59 00:03:18,320 --> 00:03:21,960 Speaker 5: as a plumber in North Carolina doing plumbing repair work. 60 00:03:22,120 --> 00:03:25,560 Speaker 5: I was briefly living in Michigan. I had moved up 61 00:03:25,560 --> 00:03:29,280 Speaker 5: here from North Carolina, but I found it hard to 62 00:03:29,360 --> 00:03:31,920 Speaker 5: maintain employment up here because I was not from the 63 00:03:32,000 --> 00:03:35,760 Speaker 5: state and it's a union state. You had to establish 64 00:03:35,800 --> 00:03:38,040 Speaker 5: a five year residency in the state before you could 65 00:03:38,080 --> 00:03:42,280 Speaker 5: join the union. So I decided this wasn't a place 66 00:03:42,280 --> 00:03:44,440 Speaker 5: for me, and I moved back to North Carolina. My 67 00:03:44,520 --> 00:03:48,880 Speaker 5: girlfriend and I, Connie Cook. When we separated. It wasn't 68 00:03:48,880 --> 00:03:53,600 Speaker 5: a friendly separation, to put it lately, and I didn't 69 00:03:53,600 --> 00:03:56,400 Speaker 5: think it was beyond her to make up something, but 70 00:03:56,480 --> 00:04:00,200 Speaker 5: I didn't think it was to this degree or here. 71 00:04:01,520 --> 00:04:04,480 Speaker 5: After we had separated, I was out working and I 72 00:04:04,560 --> 00:04:07,960 Speaker 5: came home from work one day and my door was open. 73 00:04:08,160 --> 00:04:11,120 Speaker 5: Everything in the mobile home was gone, and I thought, well, okay, 74 00:04:11,280 --> 00:04:13,920 Speaker 5: she came back and stole everything I had. There's no 75 00:04:14,000 --> 00:04:16,200 Speaker 5: note or anything, but that's okay. If she needed that, 76 00:04:16,200 --> 00:04:20,400 Speaker 5: that's fine. Moving on. It wasn't until a couple of 77 00:04:20,440 --> 00:04:24,279 Speaker 5: weeks later that the police came to my workplace and 78 00:04:24,360 --> 00:04:28,480 Speaker 5: serve me with this warrant, and then everything made sense. Then, oh, okay, 79 00:04:29,480 --> 00:04:34,000 Speaker 5: she used me to basically get a ride back to 80 00:04:34,080 --> 00:04:38,679 Speaker 5: Michigan and claim a reward that was open for a 81 00:04:38,760 --> 00:04:43,560 Speaker 5: murder case that was unsolved in Michigan. She has me 82 00:04:43,680 --> 00:04:46,839 Speaker 5: confessing to a murder six months before it actually happened. 83 00:04:47,160 --> 00:04:48,000 Speaker 3: It's a problem. 84 00:04:48,560 --> 00:04:50,919 Speaker 5: They took her in and they gave her a polygraph test, 85 00:04:51,279 --> 00:04:56,240 Speaker 5: so she worked with the polygraph examiner until they came 86 00:04:56,360 --> 00:04:58,040 Speaker 5: up with a test that she could pass. 87 00:04:58,680 --> 00:05:01,799 Speaker 3: Well, let's bring in Marla talk a little bit about 88 00:05:02,080 --> 00:05:05,480 Speaker 3: the crime that mister Pool really had no idea what 89 00:05:05,520 --> 00:05:08,080 Speaker 3: the details were. Marla, can you tell us a little 90 00:05:08,120 --> 00:05:11,040 Speaker 3: bit about the crime that mister Poole was ultimately charged with. 91 00:05:11,720 --> 00:05:17,160 Speaker 4: Yes, So, mister Poole was convicted of murdering a man 92 00:05:17,240 --> 00:05:24,680 Speaker 4: in Pontiac, Michigan. And mister Mieha was actually pretty well 93 00:05:24,720 --> 00:05:28,479 Speaker 4: known in the Pontiac community at that time. He had 94 00:05:28,520 --> 00:05:31,320 Speaker 4: worked for Pontiac and he had worked for the county 95 00:05:31,880 --> 00:05:35,960 Speaker 4: in a variety of government jobs, and he was actually 96 00:05:36,680 --> 00:05:41,839 Speaker 4: pretty popular individual at the time. He was living what 97 00:05:41,920 --> 00:05:43,919 Speaker 4: would have been considered at that time sort of a 98 00:05:43,960 --> 00:05:47,760 Speaker 4: double life, meaning he was a gay man in Pontiac, 99 00:05:47,839 --> 00:05:51,599 Speaker 4: Michigan in nineteen eighty eight, and he frequented a gay bar, 100 00:05:51,920 --> 00:05:55,679 Speaker 4: which was the last place he was seen alive. So 101 00:05:56,120 --> 00:06:01,080 Speaker 4: Miha had left with a stranger that evening. Stranger, through 102 00:06:01,120 --> 00:06:04,960 Speaker 4: the narrative, became mister Poole. Gil became a suspect when 103 00:06:04,960 --> 00:06:09,400 Speaker 4: his ex girlfriend Connie Cook said, I have information about 104 00:06:09,400 --> 00:06:13,039 Speaker 4: a murder which at that point in time when she 105 00:06:13,240 --> 00:06:17,960 Speaker 4: came forward the murder, the case of gone cold for 106 00:06:18,000 --> 00:06:20,680 Speaker 4: about seven or eight months, and that's when mister Pool 107 00:06:20,760 --> 00:06:21,760 Speaker 4: became the suspect. 108 00:06:22,880 --> 00:06:27,560 Speaker 3: And so, mister Poole, tell us about when you first 109 00:06:27,640 --> 00:06:32,279 Speaker 3: learned that you weren't just going to be able to 110 00:06:32,320 --> 00:06:34,560 Speaker 3: take care of this quick and go back to work. 111 00:06:34,920 --> 00:06:38,000 Speaker 3: What was the first moment where you recognized that you 112 00:06:38,040 --> 00:06:42,240 Speaker 3: were beginning a long, slow slide into the criminal justice system. 113 00:06:42,960 --> 00:06:46,880 Speaker 5: After I got back to Michigan things, Yeah, we really 114 00:06:46,920 --> 00:06:51,880 Speaker 5: were setting in back in Oakland County jail. The investigator 115 00:06:51,920 --> 00:06:59,080 Speaker 5: started taking samples from me, hair samples, blood samples, bite impressions, 116 00:07:01,120 --> 00:07:02,120 Speaker 5: dental molds. 117 00:07:02,360 --> 00:07:05,279 Speaker 3: A dental mold. We'll definitely get to the dental mold. 118 00:07:05,360 --> 00:07:07,719 Speaker 3: So they were starting to cook up the junk science 119 00:07:07,800 --> 00:07:08,279 Speaker 3: right away. 120 00:07:08,839 --> 00:07:13,280 Speaker 5: Yeah. Yeah, And I hired an attorney in Michigan who 121 00:07:13,280 --> 00:07:17,040 Speaker 5: contacted me once. While I was introduced to the county jail. 122 00:07:17,920 --> 00:07:21,800 Speaker 5: They had composite drawings ran in a newspaper that was 123 00:07:21,840 --> 00:07:24,640 Speaker 5: not me. He showed me the newspaper he said, look, 124 00:07:24,680 --> 00:07:26,640 Speaker 5: this is the paper that they had. It doesn't even 125 00:07:26,680 --> 00:07:29,600 Speaker 5: match you. It's not even close. And it was just 126 00:07:31,000 --> 00:07:35,160 Speaker 5: a matter of a beneful girlfriend and started a process 127 00:07:35,200 --> 00:07:36,600 Speaker 5: that we're just going to have to take care of. 128 00:07:36,720 --> 00:07:39,520 Speaker 5: But not to worry he was seeing. He seemed to 129 00:07:39,560 --> 00:07:41,920 Speaker 5: be kind of nonchalant about it. So it was kind 130 00:07:41,960 --> 00:07:44,840 Speaker 5: of calling to me a little bit. But as Tom 131 00:07:44,920 --> 00:07:49,000 Speaker 5: moved on in the months in the county jail, crep 132 00:07:49,080 --> 00:07:53,560 Speaker 5: up on me and then it became a lot more serious. 133 00:07:54,040 --> 00:07:56,480 Speaker 3: Marlin, let me bring you in to talk a little 134 00:07:56,480 --> 00:07:58,720 Speaker 3: bit about the investigation that was going on, where this 135 00:07:58,840 --> 00:08:01,960 Speaker 3: composite sketch came from, and who the people were that 136 00:08:02,080 --> 00:08:06,800 Speaker 3: saw the victim on the night the victim was murdered. 137 00:08:07,520 --> 00:08:10,560 Speaker 4: Yes, so the victim was a regular at this bar 138 00:08:10,920 --> 00:08:14,800 Speaker 4: and most of the patrons were individuals that were either 139 00:08:14,880 --> 00:08:19,120 Speaker 4: his friends or knew him. And so obviously one of 140 00:08:19,200 --> 00:08:21,800 Speaker 4: the first things that the police did to investigate this 141 00:08:21,960 --> 00:08:24,320 Speaker 4: case is to interview everyone that was in the bar 142 00:08:24,640 --> 00:08:28,920 Speaker 4: that evening, and they all provided descriptions, and there were 143 00:08:28,960 --> 00:08:33,560 Speaker 4: two composite drawings that came out in the local newspaper, 144 00:08:33,679 --> 00:08:38,240 Speaker 4: the Oakland Press, and as mister Poole stated, they didn't 145 00:08:38,280 --> 00:08:42,800 Speaker 4: look anything like mister Pool. Unfortunately, when Connie Cook served 146 00:08:42,880 --> 00:08:46,440 Speaker 4: mister Poole up on a silver platter. What the government 147 00:08:46,520 --> 00:08:50,240 Speaker 4: did and what the police investigation did is it focused 148 00:08:50,280 --> 00:08:55,559 Speaker 4: then on mister Pool. This problem was compounded because instead 149 00:08:55,760 --> 00:08:59,440 Speaker 4: of the composites that were published in the newspaper a 150 00:08:59,480 --> 00:09:04,760 Speaker 4: week after or the murder, the government produced new drawings. 151 00:09:05,600 --> 00:09:08,959 Speaker 4: We to this day do not know where they came from, 152 00:09:09,559 --> 00:09:16,480 Speaker 4: and they proceeded to suggest to the witnesses and the 153 00:09:16,600 --> 00:09:20,040 Speaker 4: jury that these were the drawings that were in the newspaper, 154 00:09:20,520 --> 00:09:26,200 Speaker 4: and those drawings looked exactly like mister Poole Wow. In fact, 155 00:09:26,280 --> 00:09:30,559 Speaker 4: to this day, I personally believe that they drew those 156 00:09:30,640 --> 00:09:35,760 Speaker 4: drawings from photographs that they obtained through their investigation. 157 00:09:36,920 --> 00:09:42,600 Speaker 3: So they took a new sketch and essentially painted a 158 00:09:42,600 --> 00:09:48,319 Speaker 3: bullseye around their new target and got their identification that way. No, 159 00:09:48,440 --> 00:09:52,480 Speaker 3: and we all know that eyewitness misidentification as a leading 160 00:09:52,520 --> 00:09:56,760 Speaker 3: contributing factor to wrongful conviction. It's played a role in 161 00:09:56,880 --> 00:10:00,720 Speaker 3: nearly seventy percent of all convictions that and overturned by 162 00:10:00,800 --> 00:10:07,480 Speaker 3: DNA evidence. But usually those are honest mistakes by well 163 00:10:07,520 --> 00:10:12,480 Speaker 3: intentioned actors that are using a suggestive lineup. It's usually 164 00:10:12,480 --> 00:10:19,400 Speaker 3: not manipulating an image to gain an identification. Mister Pool 165 00:10:19,440 --> 00:10:21,520 Speaker 3: were you aware that this was going on at the time. 166 00:10:21,720 --> 00:10:27,040 Speaker 5: Absolutely. I was poking my lawyer in the side. I said, listen, 167 00:10:27,080 --> 00:10:32,160 Speaker 5: object to this, and he did a very poor job 168 00:10:32,800 --> 00:10:36,240 Speaker 5: during trial of getting to the bottom of the composite 169 00:10:36,400 --> 00:10:42,160 Speaker 5: drawing switcheroo that they that they came to. And I 170 00:10:42,200 --> 00:10:46,240 Speaker 5: wanted to jump in when you said misidentification. This was 171 00:10:46,280 --> 00:10:51,680 Speaker 5: not a misidentification. This was absolutely a fabrication. A miss 172 00:10:52,000 --> 00:10:57,120 Speaker 5: identification suggests that somebody made a mistake. I don't think 173 00:10:57,160 --> 00:10:59,720 Speaker 5: there were any mistakes made here. I think this was 174 00:11:00,520 --> 00:11:03,520 Speaker 5: planned out and intentional. And if you look at it 175 00:11:03,559 --> 00:11:08,160 Speaker 5: from that perspective, all the puzzles fit like they orchestrated 176 00:11:08,200 --> 00:11:10,400 Speaker 5: this whole thing to get a conviction. Yeah. 177 00:11:10,440 --> 00:11:13,600 Speaker 3: Absolutely, you know. I mean, and I didn't mean to 178 00:11:13,600 --> 00:11:15,680 Speaker 3: suggest that there was some sort of a mistake, you know. 179 00:11:15,960 --> 00:11:18,960 Speaker 3: I just hadn't heard something like a new composite spetch 180 00:11:19,000 --> 00:11:22,120 Speaker 3: to match the suspect before. And I've been around the block, 181 00:11:22,320 --> 00:11:25,560 Speaker 3: so that's a new one for me, you know. And 182 00:11:25,559 --> 00:11:27,240 Speaker 3: then we're going to bring in the junk science in 183 00:11:27,280 --> 00:11:29,319 Speaker 3: a minute. But I want to just go back, Marli, 184 00:11:29,360 --> 00:11:31,079 Speaker 3: if you could just talk a little bit about how 185 00:11:31,080 --> 00:11:34,520 Speaker 3: the victim was discovered and some of the evidence that 186 00:11:34,720 --> 00:11:37,400 Speaker 3: was alledgs to have been found on the victim's body 187 00:11:37,440 --> 00:11:39,439 Speaker 3: and ultimately associated with mister Poole. 188 00:11:40,360 --> 00:11:44,800 Speaker 4: Sure the victim left the bar at closing time on 189 00:11:44,880 --> 00:11:49,120 Speaker 4: a Sunday night Monday morning, and the next day he 190 00:11:49,200 --> 00:11:53,240 Speaker 4: failed to show up for work and towards the end 191 00:11:53,240 --> 00:11:57,319 Speaker 4: of that day this was very out of character for him. 192 00:11:57,679 --> 00:12:01,680 Speaker 4: He was considered a missing person and he was discovered 193 00:12:01,720 --> 00:12:04,079 Speaker 4: on a running path by two runners who were out 194 00:12:04,080 --> 00:12:06,760 Speaker 4: for an early morning run, and of course they called 195 00:12:06,760 --> 00:12:12,679 Speaker 4: the police immediately. They identified his body rather quickly and 196 00:12:14,000 --> 00:12:18,520 Speaker 4: when they took him. When they arrived at the crime scene, 197 00:12:18,640 --> 00:12:20,600 Speaker 4: there was a lot of blood because he had been 198 00:12:20,640 --> 00:12:26,040 Speaker 4: stabbed to death, but there was also less concentrated blood 199 00:12:26,200 --> 00:12:31,160 Speaker 4: around the body, so they as a result, they collected 200 00:12:31,200 --> 00:12:35,960 Speaker 4: some blood droplets from some stones and some grass near 201 00:12:36,040 --> 00:12:42,679 Speaker 4: the body. This is another actually extremely heartbreaking piece of 202 00:12:42,720 --> 00:12:47,640 Speaker 4: this case in terms of having this information back in 203 00:12:47,720 --> 00:12:51,200 Speaker 4: nineteen eighty eight and how it was treated. So they 204 00:12:51,280 --> 00:12:55,920 Speaker 4: used blood typing at the time, which only allows us 205 00:12:56,200 --> 00:13:01,720 Speaker 4: to put ourselves in a category of undreds, thousands, sometimes 206 00:13:01,760 --> 00:13:05,680 Speaker 4: millions of people, and they determined that the victim's blood 207 00:13:05,840 --> 00:13:09,720 Speaker 4: was oh and that there was also a foreign blood 208 00:13:09,720 --> 00:13:13,280 Speaker 4: type present B type blood, which, as we now know 209 00:13:14,320 --> 00:13:15,520 Speaker 4: mister Pool, is a B. 210 00:13:16,200 --> 00:13:19,480 Speaker 3: He was excluded from the evidence before the trial. Right, 211 00:13:20,320 --> 00:13:23,680 Speaker 3: that's what we're telling here, Right, So, mister Pool, you 212 00:13:23,800 --> 00:13:26,959 Speaker 3: have at this point you've given up all forcibly had 213 00:13:27,200 --> 00:13:30,120 Speaker 3: blood samples taken from you, hair samples taken from you, 214 00:13:30,200 --> 00:13:35,400 Speaker 3: a dental mold taken from you. You've been an identification 215 00:13:35,480 --> 00:13:39,520 Speaker 3: has been manufactured against you. Your girlfriend has falsely accused 216 00:13:39,520 --> 00:13:42,400 Speaker 3: you of a crime. You're in jail and you're about 217 00:13:42,440 --> 00:13:45,920 Speaker 3: to start trial. Tell us about when the dentist came 218 00:13:45,960 --> 00:13:46,640 Speaker 3: for your teeth. 219 00:13:47,160 --> 00:13:55,120 Speaker 5: Well, forensic odentologist, self proclaimed expert in BikeE marks came 220 00:13:55,320 --> 00:14:02,440 Speaker 5: to the county jail and took marks in wax. I 221 00:14:02,520 --> 00:14:07,640 Speaker 5: say he's self proclaimed. I guess he was certified by 222 00:14:07,920 --> 00:14:12,440 Speaker 5: a Board of American Board of Odentologists. 223 00:14:11,400 --> 00:14:14,040 Speaker 3: By foe junk scientists certified him. 224 00:14:14,320 --> 00:14:19,320 Speaker 5: Right. But the certification comes in the form of certifying 225 00:14:19,880 --> 00:14:25,640 Speaker 5: identification of remains that are unidentifiable otherwise. So if you 226 00:14:25,720 --> 00:14:28,200 Speaker 5: had a body that was burnt, and you could take 227 00:14:28,400 --> 00:14:32,200 Speaker 5: the teeth from that body and compare them to dental 228 00:14:32,200 --> 00:14:37,840 Speaker 5: records and identify that victim but to take that science 229 00:14:38,640 --> 00:14:41,560 Speaker 5: and stretch it to say, okay, well we're going to 230 00:14:41,640 --> 00:14:45,120 Speaker 5: take a bruise. It's essentially what they found on the 231 00:14:45,200 --> 00:14:48,840 Speaker 5: victim was a bruise, and I'd match it to somebody's 232 00:14:48,920 --> 00:14:53,400 Speaker 5: teeth and say those teeth matched to bruise is a 233 00:14:53,480 --> 00:14:59,440 Speaker 5: far stretch. It's not a solid substrate like wax that 234 00:14:59,480 --> 00:15:05,000 Speaker 5: they're taking my impressions from. Skin is fluid, it's movable, 235 00:15:05,080 --> 00:15:08,120 Speaker 5: it's elastic. It's going to stretch, and so you're not 236 00:15:08,200 --> 00:15:13,080 Speaker 5: going to have depth or angulation, registration, all these things 237 00:15:13,080 --> 00:15:16,160 Speaker 5: that would come into play when you're identifying. 238 00:15:15,560 --> 00:15:17,760 Speaker 3: A course bitemark. 239 00:15:17,760 --> 00:15:22,000 Speaker 2: Evidence is subject to speculation masquerading as scientific evidence. As 240 00:15:22,040 --> 00:15:25,280 Speaker 2: mister Poole just said, skin does move and it changes, 241 00:15:25,360 --> 00:15:27,640 Speaker 2: and that makes it nearly impossible to say for sure 242 00:15:27,680 --> 00:15:32,200 Speaker 2: which teeth made which marks. More fundamentally, these forensic dentists 243 00:15:32,200 --> 00:15:34,280 Speaker 2: don't even know a bite mark from any other type 244 00:15:34,320 --> 00:15:39,840 Speaker 2: of injury. And beyond that, skin changes constantly in a 245 00:15:39,920 --> 00:15:43,480 Speaker 2: decomposing body, and it changes constantly in a healing victim. 246 00:15:43,680 --> 00:15:46,640 Speaker 2: So teeth that might match one day or even one 247 00:15:46,680 --> 00:15:50,800 Speaker 2: hour might not match the next hour or the next day. 248 00:15:50,920 --> 00:15:54,160 Speaker 2: The Friends of godentologists in this case was doctor Allan Warnick, 249 00:15:54,320 --> 00:15:57,480 Speaker 2: the only one practicing in Michigan at that time. Any 250 00:15:57,480 --> 00:16:00,080 Speaker 2: good defensi lawyer is supposed to question the expert or 251 00:16:00,080 --> 00:16:02,680 Speaker 2: its credentials in front of the jury in a process 252 00:16:02,720 --> 00:16:05,680 Speaker 2: called vordere. So today, if we were listening to this 253 00:16:05,800 --> 00:16:08,280 Speaker 2: case today, if a jury was hearing this case today, 254 00:16:08,640 --> 00:16:11,200 Speaker 2: they would learn that this type of evidence that doctor 255 00:16:11,240 --> 00:16:15,400 Speaker 2: Allan Warnick was about to convict mister Poole with has 256 00:16:15,440 --> 00:16:19,160 Speaker 2: been responsible for at least thirty five known wrongful convictions 257 00:16:19,160 --> 00:16:21,880 Speaker 2: and indictments. The jury would also learn that the National 258 00:16:21,920 --> 00:16:26,240 Speaker 2: Academy of Sciences calls forensic identatology junk science and gross speculation, 259 00:16:26,440 --> 00:16:29,840 Speaker 2: as has every other scientific entity that has ever examined 260 00:16:30,280 --> 00:16:34,400 Speaker 2: this fundamental junk science. I wrote an entire book on 261 00:16:34,440 --> 00:16:36,720 Speaker 2: the subject of junk science, and I've been on another 262 00:16:36,760 --> 00:16:40,720 Speaker 2: of our podcast Junk Science, talking about the outrageous practice 263 00:16:40,800 --> 00:16:44,680 Speaker 2: of bitemark identification and matching. But let's get back to 264 00:16:44,720 --> 00:16:47,360 Speaker 2: mister Poole's case. Despite the fact that he and his 265 00:16:47,400 --> 00:16:50,280 Speaker 2: lawyer both knew that this wasn't a credible witness, doctor 266 00:16:50,320 --> 00:16:52,800 Speaker 2: Allan Warnick was nevertheless allowed to get up on the 267 00:16:52,800 --> 00:16:56,240 Speaker 2: witness stand, raise his right hand, and testify as a 268 00:16:56,320 --> 00:16:59,760 Speaker 2: so called expert practicing in a valid field of forensic 269 00:16:59,760 --> 00:17:00,480 Speaker 2: science sciences. 270 00:17:01,000 --> 00:17:03,600 Speaker 5: So when he gets on the stand and you know, 271 00:17:03,680 --> 00:17:06,080 Speaker 5: with his little white lab coat on, and says, well, 272 00:17:06,280 --> 00:17:09,399 Speaker 5: the odds of winning the lottery were better than it 273 00:17:09,560 --> 00:17:12,040 Speaker 5: not being mister Poole, That's exactly what he told the 274 00:17:12,119 --> 00:17:15,920 Speaker 5: jury word for word. So the jury hears that, which 275 00:17:15,960 --> 00:17:20,199 Speaker 5: is a personal opinion, but they're instructed to regard it 276 00:17:20,240 --> 00:17:23,639 Speaker 5: as a truth. How do I win? How do I 277 00:17:23,680 --> 00:17:24,200 Speaker 5: come back that? 278 00:17:37,359 --> 00:17:41,760 Speaker 3: So let's take us from the moment of the opening 279 00:17:41,800 --> 00:17:46,919 Speaker 3: statement and describe how you experienced your trial as this 280 00:17:47,080 --> 00:17:48,000 Speaker 3: nightmare unfolded. 281 00:17:49,040 --> 00:17:52,320 Speaker 5: I believe I'll see my attorney twice before the trial. 282 00:17:52,880 --> 00:17:55,760 Speaker 5: Both times it was less than ten minutes. He was 283 00:17:55,800 --> 00:17:58,879 Speaker 5: a paid attorney at trial. He gave me a notepad 284 00:17:58,920 --> 00:18:00,760 Speaker 5: and a piece of paper here, if you want to 285 00:18:00,800 --> 00:18:02,919 Speaker 5: make notes, just write it down and show it to me. 286 00:18:03,359 --> 00:18:07,879 Speaker 5: And I was kind of keeping score. Well, well okay, 287 00:18:07,920 --> 00:18:10,320 Speaker 5: well that didn't sound good for me. So you know 288 00:18:10,440 --> 00:18:14,320 Speaker 5: that was one against me. Well, well that didn't sound good. 289 00:18:14,359 --> 00:18:18,720 Speaker 5: There's another mark against me. While the marks kept adding 290 00:18:18,800 --> 00:18:22,160 Speaker 5: up and it doesn't look good. Column here on. I'm 291 00:18:22,200 --> 00:18:28,520 Speaker 5: getting very nervous as lack of preparation, i would say, 292 00:18:29,720 --> 00:18:33,640 Speaker 5: was coming to light, and it was not looking good 293 00:18:33,680 --> 00:18:34,360 Speaker 5: for the home. 294 00:18:34,160 --> 00:18:37,440 Speaker 2: Team, Okay for the audience with their own score seats 295 00:18:37,480 --> 00:18:40,560 Speaker 2: at home. The evidence presented against mister Poole was limited 296 00:18:40,600 --> 00:18:44,800 Speaker 2: to this, the doctored up composite sketch, his ex girlfriend's 297 00:18:44,800 --> 00:18:48,080 Speaker 2: false testimony that he admitted to the crime, and the 298 00:18:48,160 --> 00:18:53,119 Speaker 2: junk science the bitemark evidence. A Michigan State Police scientists 299 00:18:53,119 --> 00:18:55,760 Speaker 2: also conducted blood type testing at the crime scene and 300 00:18:55,840 --> 00:18:59,159 Speaker 2: did not find any type AB blood that would have 301 00:18:59,200 --> 00:19:03,560 Speaker 2: matched to mister Pool. Due to illness, this scientist did 302 00:19:03,600 --> 00:19:08,920 Speaker 2: not testify, and instead of delaying the trial to get 303 00:19:08,920 --> 00:19:12,240 Speaker 2: this crucial testimony in front of the jury, mister Poole's 304 00:19:12,280 --> 00:19:16,560 Speaker 2: lawyers just entered the paper report into evidence, which isn't 305 00:19:16,720 --> 00:19:19,919 Speaker 2: close to us convincing. So yeah, it was definitely not 306 00:19:20,000 --> 00:19:22,800 Speaker 2: looking good for the home team. So at this point, 307 00:19:22,840 --> 00:19:25,199 Speaker 2: mister Poole, you decided to testify on your own behalf. 308 00:19:25,960 --> 00:19:28,000 Speaker 2: Take us through that experience and how you were feeling 309 00:19:29,160 --> 00:19:29,840 Speaker 2: at this time. 310 00:19:30,480 --> 00:19:35,639 Speaker 5: I'm sunk, I am absolutely beside myself. I'm in a 311 00:19:35,680 --> 00:19:40,199 Speaker 5: panic state. When the prosecutor ended his his presentation. The 312 00:19:40,320 --> 00:19:43,879 Speaker 5: judge asked my attorney to put on his witnesses. My 313 00:19:43,960 --> 00:19:47,880 Speaker 5: attorney says, yeah, no, we're good defense. Rest He put 314 00:19:47,920 --> 00:19:51,400 Speaker 5: on no witnesses at all, whatsoever. I said, wait, wait 315 00:19:51,400 --> 00:19:53,440 Speaker 5: a minute, wait a minute, you're not going to put 316 00:19:53,480 --> 00:19:57,159 Speaker 5: on any witnesses at all. Somebody's got to go up 317 00:19:57,160 --> 00:19:59,760 Speaker 5: with my defense. I'll testify. He said, well, I went 318 00:19:59,840 --> 00:20:03,120 Speaker 5: to you're getting on the stand. The prosecutor is really 319 00:20:03,160 --> 00:20:06,560 Speaker 5: gonna I don't care. Somebody's got to stand up for me. 320 00:20:07,080 --> 00:20:10,120 Speaker 5: So I demanded to be put on the stand, and 321 00:20:10,320 --> 00:20:10,920 Speaker 5: I got up. 322 00:20:11,000 --> 00:20:14,680 Speaker 3: So let me interrupt you here for a second. Your 323 00:20:15,200 --> 00:20:18,679 Speaker 3: attorney had not talked to you about whether or not 324 00:20:18,760 --> 00:20:21,840 Speaker 3: you're going to testify until that moment. You had no 325 00:20:21,880 --> 00:20:26,960 Speaker 3: conversation about that. No, he didn't prep you for any 326 00:20:27,040 --> 00:20:30,920 Speaker 3: of this testimony. No, so you had no idea what 327 00:20:30,960 --> 00:20:35,160 Speaker 3: you might say or might not say. No, and he 328 00:20:35,320 --> 00:20:39,320 Speaker 3: just advised you not to do it, and that was it, right. 329 00:20:40,280 --> 00:20:43,080 Speaker 5: But I said, no, no, no, no, I'm getting on the stand. 330 00:20:43,119 --> 00:20:46,120 Speaker 5: Somebody's got to say I didn't do it. Somebody's got 331 00:20:46,160 --> 00:20:49,679 Speaker 5: to see me, my reaction or whatever I mean, however 332 00:20:49,720 --> 00:20:53,600 Speaker 5: it plays out, I can't be convicted and just sit 333 00:20:53,680 --> 00:20:57,479 Speaker 5: here and not say anything. If I'm going to go down, 334 00:20:57,560 --> 00:20:59,800 Speaker 5: I'm want to go down kicking and screaming. So I 335 00:20:59,800 --> 00:21:03,240 Speaker 5: did my best. I got on the stand and against 336 00:21:03,280 --> 00:21:10,200 Speaker 5: the prosecutors manipulations of wording or his learned techniques of 337 00:21:11,440 --> 00:21:18,760 Speaker 5: interviewing somebody, I did my best. But I guess it 338 00:21:18,800 --> 00:21:20,280 Speaker 5: didn't translate to the jury. 339 00:21:20,600 --> 00:21:22,840 Speaker 3: It's very you know, I mean that anybody can be 340 00:21:22,920 --> 00:21:27,240 Speaker 3: made to sound like a liar under those heightened circumstances. 341 00:21:27,480 --> 00:21:31,959 Speaker 3: And so tell us about was your family at the 342 00:21:31,960 --> 00:21:34,719 Speaker 3: there for the verdict and your testimony? 343 00:21:35,200 --> 00:21:41,160 Speaker 5: You know, due to my attorney's initial response or initial investigation, 344 00:21:41,920 --> 00:21:45,040 Speaker 5: it was just a matter of routine. This is not you. 345 00:21:45,400 --> 00:21:48,639 Speaker 5: The evidence says that's not you. Don't worry about it. 346 00:21:48,680 --> 00:21:52,840 Speaker 5: You'll never be convicted. No, my family's in North Carolina. 347 00:21:52,920 --> 00:21:55,160 Speaker 5: I wasn't going to have them fly up to Michigan. 348 00:21:55,880 --> 00:21:58,720 Speaker 5: So I had no family or friends or anybody. I 349 00:21:58,720 --> 00:22:00,480 Speaker 5: had no support there in the courtroom at all. 350 00:22:00,600 --> 00:22:00,879 Speaker 1: Wow. 351 00:22:01,080 --> 00:22:04,720 Speaker 3: And so you walked into this believing that you know, 352 00:22:04,920 --> 00:22:07,560 Speaker 3: a day or two later you'd be acquitted, go back 353 00:22:07,600 --> 00:22:08,240 Speaker 3: to your life. 354 00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:12,080 Speaker 5: Exactly. I could see that this was orchestrated for a 355 00:22:12,080 --> 00:22:16,840 Speaker 5: conviction of an unsolved murder of a very important person, 356 00:22:17,640 --> 00:22:21,200 Speaker 5: well loved by the community. We're satisfying a community need 357 00:22:21,240 --> 00:22:27,480 Speaker 5: for a conviction. And I was just a young twenty 358 00:22:27,480 --> 00:22:31,119 Speaker 5: two year old kid, so you know I was served up. 359 00:22:31,359 --> 00:22:35,439 Speaker 3: Wow, I mean you were just you know, in a 360 00:22:35,480 --> 00:22:38,639 Speaker 3: life raft on your own, cut from the shore. It 361 00:22:38,720 --> 00:22:43,000 Speaker 3: sounded like, with no support, no family support, no lawyally support, 362 00:22:43,680 --> 00:22:50,200 Speaker 3: no scientific support, you get convicted and sentenced to life 363 00:22:50,240 --> 00:22:51,520 Speaker 3: without parole. Is that right? 364 00:22:52,520 --> 00:22:52,960 Speaker 5: Correct? 365 00:22:53,240 --> 00:22:55,919 Speaker 3: Tell us the role that Hank Clayton played in this trial. 366 00:22:56,800 --> 00:23:02,920 Speaker 4: Hank Clayton was in this storyline as an individual who 367 00:23:03,119 --> 00:23:06,720 Speaker 4: had spent a considerable amount of time with the victim 368 00:23:07,440 --> 00:23:12,080 Speaker 4: leading up to the time of his disappearance, and it 369 00:23:12,119 --> 00:23:16,320 Speaker 4: was basically uncontroverted that on the night of the murder, 370 00:23:16,400 --> 00:23:20,919 Speaker 4: leading up to the murder, that Miha had left the 371 00:23:20,960 --> 00:23:25,000 Speaker 4: bar at least once with mister Clayton and returned with him, 372 00:23:25,520 --> 00:23:29,959 Speaker 4: And in fact, there were witness statements and testimony at 373 00:23:29,960 --> 00:23:33,840 Speaker 4: the prelim that suggested that he in fact left the 374 00:23:33,920 --> 00:23:39,880 Speaker 4: bar with Hank Clayton. The police did question mister Clayton, 375 00:23:40,080 --> 00:23:44,040 Speaker 4: and they did search his truck they did find a knife, 376 00:23:44,119 --> 00:23:48,520 Speaker 4: They didn't find anything unusual in the back of his truck, 377 00:23:49,119 --> 00:23:52,679 Speaker 4: and they pretty much dropped him as a suspect. 378 00:23:53,119 --> 00:23:55,959 Speaker 3: And the victim was stabbed right, so there was no 379 00:23:56,000 --> 00:23:57,160 Speaker 3: testing of this knife. 380 00:23:57,640 --> 00:24:01,240 Speaker 4: There was testing, and they did not find any blood. 381 00:24:01,440 --> 00:24:05,760 Speaker 4: We had an investigator look into his background and he 382 00:24:06,000 --> 00:24:11,120 Speaker 4: was known to threaten people with knives and behave in 383 00:24:11,160 --> 00:24:13,359 Speaker 4: a jealous manner, if you want to call it that. 384 00:24:13,600 --> 00:24:18,680 Speaker 4: We also spent many, many years trying to determine what 385 00:24:18,720 --> 00:24:23,280 Speaker 4: mister Clayton's blood type was. We were unsuccessful in trying 386 00:24:23,280 --> 00:24:26,840 Speaker 4: to determine that, and we had to remind ourselves that 387 00:24:27,119 --> 00:24:30,880 Speaker 4: we might not be able to solve the crime, and 388 00:24:30,960 --> 00:24:35,600 Speaker 4: we had to step back and think through how are 389 00:24:35,640 --> 00:24:37,639 Speaker 4: we going to exonerate mister Poole. 390 00:24:38,280 --> 00:24:41,520 Speaker 3: So, mister Pool, after your sentenced, tell us about your 391 00:24:41,520 --> 00:24:46,040 Speaker 3: life in prison before Marla took on your case. What 392 00:24:46,160 --> 00:24:48,600 Speaker 3: was your appeals like? What was your prison life like? 393 00:24:49,240 --> 00:24:53,159 Speaker 5: I started trying to educate myself as to how I 394 00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:57,480 Speaker 5: got in there, the law, the statutes, what was required 395 00:24:57,520 --> 00:25:00,960 Speaker 5: for a conviction, how do I appeal? Just started ordering 396 00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:05,000 Speaker 5: books and reading case law. I formulated a list of 397 00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:08,200 Speaker 5: I guess I could say demands. I was going to 398 00:25:08,240 --> 00:25:11,320 Speaker 5: make sure I was in control of this of this 399 00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:14,640 Speaker 5: journey here, because leaving it up to my attorney, even 400 00:25:14,680 --> 00:25:17,320 Speaker 5: though when I had paid, did turn out well. The 401 00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:21,760 Speaker 5: court appointed lawyer, I got him on the phone maybe 402 00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:27,240 Speaker 5: twice throughout the whole Pillot process. I never once seen him. 403 00:25:27,359 --> 00:25:28,880 Speaker 5: Don't know what it looks like to this day. 404 00:25:29,560 --> 00:25:32,520 Speaker 3: Oh my god. And the lawyering you got, mister Poole, 405 00:25:32,680 --> 00:25:35,000 Speaker 3: it just outrages me. I see a lot of bad 406 00:25:35,080 --> 00:25:38,000 Speaker 3: lawyering in this job. But you know, here, you know, 407 00:25:38,119 --> 00:25:41,399 Speaker 3: you have such stark evidence of innocence before you even 408 00:25:42,040 --> 00:25:46,800 Speaker 3: get indicted, and just go through a trial where they, 409 00:25:47,320 --> 00:25:50,480 Speaker 3: you know, aren't being straightforward with the blood evidence, and 410 00:25:50,520 --> 00:25:53,919 Speaker 3: they're using all this junk science and they're inventing sketches, 411 00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:55,560 Speaker 3: you know. I mean, it's hard to believe that we're 412 00:25:55,560 --> 00:25:57,280 Speaker 3: talking about the United States. 413 00:25:57,560 --> 00:26:02,159 Speaker 5: I was absolutely myself. I said, I'm not going to 414 00:26:02,240 --> 00:26:04,800 Speaker 5: lose the appeal too. So I had to start out 415 00:26:04,840 --> 00:26:07,080 Speaker 5: from basics. So in too much time, I got my 416 00:26:07,200 --> 00:26:10,880 Speaker 5: GD I went to an office occupation class to learn 417 00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:13,840 Speaker 5: how to type, so I could type my briefs. And 418 00:26:13,880 --> 00:26:16,440 Speaker 5: then so I got me a typewriter, and I started 419 00:26:16,440 --> 00:26:20,119 Speaker 5: writing myself, formulating my own supplemental briefs to put in 420 00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:23,920 Speaker 5: on behalf of myself, and I put everything but the 421 00:26:24,000 --> 00:26:27,480 Speaker 5: kitchen sink in there. Actually took my case all the 422 00:26:27,520 --> 00:26:30,240 Speaker 5: way up to the United States Supreme Court, and every 423 00:26:30,320 --> 00:26:33,400 Speaker 5: court got it wrong. Yeah. I can only attribute that 424 00:26:33,440 --> 00:26:37,479 Speaker 5: to just not giving me the time of day because 425 00:26:37,520 --> 00:26:40,120 Speaker 5: I was a prisoner. I mean, listen, I've been studying 426 00:26:40,160 --> 00:26:41,800 Speaker 5: law for twenty five years. 427 00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:42,480 Speaker 3: Yep. 428 00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:45,360 Speaker 5: How could I not know what I'm talking about by 429 00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:45,760 Speaker 5: this time. 430 00:26:45,880 --> 00:26:47,959 Speaker 3: I have no doubt that you're a pell of briefs 431 00:26:48,040 --> 00:26:50,879 Speaker 3: or stronger than ninety percent of the briefs that are 432 00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:55,240 Speaker 3: filed in these cases. I want to get to your 433 00:26:55,280 --> 00:26:58,560 Speaker 3: decision to reach out to Marl's clinic, and how you 434 00:26:58,640 --> 00:27:02,119 Speaker 3: came when you began to learn about the power of 435 00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:05,119 Speaker 3: DNA evidence, and how you decided to reach out to 436 00:27:05,160 --> 00:27:07,440 Speaker 3: the instance prior to that, Marla runs. 437 00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:09,480 Speaker 5: The whole time. I reached out to attorneys trying to 438 00:27:09,480 --> 00:27:13,479 Speaker 5: get assistance because I needed a signature behind my briefs, 439 00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:16,280 Speaker 5: behind my research. I need somebody to side on and 440 00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:19,120 Speaker 5: say yes, this is legit. I needed somebody. I needed 441 00:27:19,119 --> 00:27:23,919 Speaker 5: a voice to stand behind me. Eventually the stars aligned, 442 00:27:24,320 --> 00:27:27,959 Speaker 5: Marla came to my aid, and Marla has been working 443 00:27:28,119 --> 00:27:30,720 Speaker 5: diligently on my case ever since. 444 00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:36,199 Speaker 4: We actually were looking pretty closely at Gil's case after 445 00:27:36,280 --> 00:27:40,439 Speaker 4: he wrote us, because we could tell based on just 446 00:27:40,520 --> 00:27:45,159 Speaker 4: his questionnaire that if half of this was true, he 447 00:27:45,280 --> 00:27:46,320 Speaker 4: was wrongfully convicted. 448 00:28:07,359 --> 00:28:09,879 Speaker 2: Marla and her law students submitted hundreds of freedom of 449 00:28:09,880 --> 00:28:13,040 Speaker 2: information requests to reinvestigate the case and do their own 450 00:28:13,080 --> 00:28:17,520 Speaker 2: forensic DNA testing on the evidence that remained. Unfortunately, because 451 00:28:17,560 --> 00:28:20,720 Speaker 2: mister Poole had, as he said, put everything but the 452 00:28:20,800 --> 00:28:24,080 Speaker 2: kitchen sink into trying to get himself out on his own, 453 00:28:24,320 --> 00:28:26,959 Speaker 2: Marla and her students weren't allowed to submit everything they 454 00:28:27,080 --> 00:28:31,200 Speaker 2: found to the appellate courts because it wasn't technically new evidence. 455 00:28:31,880 --> 00:28:34,400 Speaker 2: But the turning point in this case finally comes when 456 00:28:34,440 --> 00:28:38,800 Speaker 2: Michigan Attorney General Dana Nessel launches the first statewide conviction 457 00:28:38,880 --> 00:28:42,320 Speaker 2: Integrity Unit in twenty nineteen. And Marla, this is the 458 00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:45,040 Speaker 2: same year you filed an application for mister Poole's case. 459 00:28:45,960 --> 00:28:49,120 Speaker 4: When we did his application, we went in full guns. 460 00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:53,760 Speaker 4: We had the expert's opinion on the DNA, We had 461 00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:58,720 Speaker 4: the expert's opinion on the identification, and then we had 462 00:28:58,920 --> 00:29:03,920 Speaker 4: the full history of the role that Alan Warnick played 463 00:29:03,920 --> 00:29:08,160 Speaker 4: in the case, along with his association with other wrongful 464 00:29:08,160 --> 00:29:12,360 Speaker 4: convictions in the state of Michigan. We didn't argue that 465 00:29:12,480 --> 00:29:15,240 Speaker 4: the bipe mark evidence was new. We just argue that 466 00:29:15,320 --> 00:29:18,560 Speaker 4: once you find this other stuff to be new, you're 467 00:29:18,600 --> 00:29:20,479 Speaker 4: going to take a look at the whole case, and 468 00:29:20,520 --> 00:29:22,240 Speaker 4: you're going to want to take a really close look 469 00:29:22,280 --> 00:29:23,120 Speaker 4: at this bipe mark. 470 00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:27,200 Speaker 5: When they formulated the Conviction Integrity Unit, my case was 471 00:29:27,720 --> 00:29:30,920 Speaker 5: one of them. They started initially considering they're going to 472 00:29:30,960 --> 00:29:33,400 Speaker 5: make sure they got it right. And the detectives actually 473 00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:36,160 Speaker 5: told me, we're either going to be your best friend 474 00:29:36,280 --> 00:29:39,320 Speaker 5: or your worst enemy, because we're not pulling any punches here. 475 00:29:39,320 --> 00:29:41,080 Speaker 5: We're going to put it all out on the table. 476 00:29:41,400 --> 00:29:43,560 Speaker 5: So I knew in my heart I was getting out, 477 00:29:43,720 --> 00:29:45,760 Speaker 5: and I started bragging, Hey, I'm gonna get out of here. 478 00:29:45,800 --> 00:29:47,840 Speaker 5: I'm telling people around me, I'm getting out of here, 479 00:29:48,160 --> 00:29:53,120 Speaker 5: and regularly I'm getting updates from Marlow. I got notified 480 00:29:53,160 --> 00:29:55,200 Speaker 5: that I had a Zoom meeting the next day. 481 00:29:55,600 --> 00:29:59,440 Speaker 4: I remember very specifically. We were in the midst of 482 00:29:59,520 --> 00:30:02,920 Speaker 4: COVID ill so we couldn't tell you in person. 483 00:30:03,560 --> 00:30:06,120 Speaker 5: She says, it's going before the judge next week, and 484 00:30:06,160 --> 00:30:10,760 Speaker 5: there's nobody opposing you. Everybody is in agreement that you're innocent. 485 00:30:11,040 --> 00:30:13,680 Speaker 4: And I am pretty sure I was crying before I 486 00:30:13,720 --> 00:30:16,280 Speaker 4: probably got the words out. But it was one of 487 00:30:16,320 --> 00:30:21,920 Speaker 4: the happiest days for me to say, your case, after 488 00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:26,040 Speaker 4: working on it for almost twenty years, is finally turning 489 00:30:26,080 --> 00:30:26,680 Speaker 4: the corner. 490 00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:30,800 Speaker 5: I was shaken up. I mean, I think I can 491 00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:34,680 Speaker 5: remember crying twice in my conviction. Once when the judge 492 00:30:34,680 --> 00:30:36,440 Speaker 5: sentenced me and I had to make that phone call 493 00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:39,440 Speaker 5: to my mother, and the other time was when Marla 494 00:30:39,480 --> 00:30:43,400 Speaker 5: told me that that next day I had to hear 495 00:30:43,520 --> 00:30:50,920 Speaker 5: And within hours, Marla and her team of attorneys were 496 00:30:50,960 --> 00:30:53,080 Speaker 5: at the prison walking me out the door. I didn't 497 00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:55,440 Speaker 5: even have a pair of shoes to put on. They 498 00:30:55,480 --> 00:30:59,719 Speaker 5: brought me pants and shoes from the church, and I 499 00:30:59,840 --> 00:31:04,280 Speaker 5: was met there by easily one hundred people. Everybody from 500 00:31:04,320 --> 00:31:07,680 Speaker 5: the Attorney General's office was there. There were tears and 501 00:31:07,720 --> 00:31:11,920 Speaker 5: apologies all around, and I guess that's when I was 502 00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:16,400 Speaker 5: kind of reborn. I was able to start a new life, 503 00:31:16,560 --> 00:31:20,040 Speaker 5: which was not easy. I'm not going to complain about it, 504 00:31:20,080 --> 00:31:22,280 Speaker 5: but I'm going to tell you it was not easy, 505 00:31:22,320 --> 00:31:25,360 Speaker 5: and it's still difficult at times. I've been out for 506 00:31:25,400 --> 00:31:28,360 Speaker 5: a year now and I'm just now getting the hang 507 00:31:28,480 --> 00:31:30,840 Speaker 5: of some of this technology. They didn't even have cell 508 00:31:30,840 --> 00:31:33,320 Speaker 5: phones when I went to prison, so and there's been 509 00:31:33,360 --> 00:31:35,720 Speaker 5: a lot, a big learning curve of how to act 510 00:31:35,760 --> 00:31:39,280 Speaker 5: in society because this is a whole new world. It's 511 00:31:39,320 --> 00:31:44,040 Speaker 5: not the end because there's so many cases, so many 512 00:31:44,120 --> 00:31:48,600 Speaker 5: cases that still have to be reviewed and vetted, and 513 00:31:49,600 --> 00:31:54,080 Speaker 5: that I wasn't only one. So there's people all left behind, 514 00:31:54,160 --> 00:31:57,400 Speaker 5: and I feel like obligated to kind of pay it 515 00:31:57,440 --> 00:32:00,280 Speaker 5: forward here and help some others here. So there's a 516 00:32:00,320 --> 00:32:03,680 Speaker 5: lot of people that are caught up in a procedural 517 00:32:03,720 --> 00:32:09,120 Speaker 5: morass that they can't dig out of, especially some people 518 00:32:09,160 --> 00:32:13,280 Speaker 5: that are in there that have less than a full education, 519 00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:17,280 Speaker 5: or don't have the skills to navigate these waters, or 520 00:32:17,360 --> 00:32:19,920 Speaker 5: don't have the support. I didn't have any support, but 521 00:32:20,000 --> 00:32:23,640 Speaker 5: I fought a long time tooth and nail to get support. 522 00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:27,040 Speaker 5: That's just a testament to my tenacity. Some people just 523 00:32:27,040 --> 00:32:29,840 Speaker 5: don't have that. There's no reason for somebody to be 524 00:32:29,920 --> 00:32:32,959 Speaker 5: condemned to prison because they don't have the fight in them. 525 00:32:33,360 --> 00:32:35,360 Speaker 2: So I hear your call to action is for people 526 00:32:35,440 --> 00:32:38,960 Speaker 2: to support the Cooler Innocence Project or righteous Endeavor, no doubt. 527 00:32:39,200 --> 00:32:41,800 Speaker 2: But Marla, what can listeners do to help people like 528 00:32:41,840 --> 00:32:43,160 Speaker 2: mister Poole and your work. 529 00:32:43,520 --> 00:32:48,280 Speaker 4: Well, certainly we would welcome your financial support, but also 530 00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:51,520 Speaker 4: I would just say that there's a number of really 531 00:32:51,600 --> 00:32:55,040 Speaker 4: promising policy issues going on in the state right now. 532 00:32:55,200 --> 00:33:00,360 Speaker 4: We're working on amendments to our Wrongful Imprisonment Compensation Act. 533 00:33:00,720 --> 00:33:06,000 Speaker 4: We want to make sure that our clients are adequately compensated. 534 00:33:06,240 --> 00:33:09,280 Speaker 4: If you care about criminal justice issues, it's a great 535 00:33:09,360 --> 00:33:13,560 Speaker 4: time to just touch base with your legislator and say 536 00:33:13,600 --> 00:33:18,760 Speaker 4: that you'd like to support improvements to the criminal justice system. 537 00:33:19,400 --> 00:33:22,360 Speaker 4: And you know, I'm always available to answer questions about 538 00:33:22,360 --> 00:33:25,280 Speaker 4: our office or about the policy work that's going on 539 00:33:25,360 --> 00:33:26,360 Speaker 4: in Michigan. 540 00:33:26,360 --> 00:33:29,000 Speaker 3: Right Let's put the justice in the criminal justice system. 541 00:33:29,240 --> 00:33:32,680 Speaker 3: I hear that. Thank you both so much for taking 542 00:33:32,720 --> 00:33:37,160 Speaker 3: the time to share your incredible story with the listeners 543 00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:41,320 Speaker 3: of Wrongful Conviction Podcast. We're at the point of the 544 00:33:41,360 --> 00:33:44,480 Speaker 3: show called closing Arguments. Do a round robin as to 545 00:33:45,040 --> 00:33:47,520 Speaker 3: any final thoughts that you want to share with our 546 00:33:47,560 --> 00:33:51,520 Speaker 3: audience and We'll begin with you, Marla. 547 00:33:52,240 --> 00:33:55,520 Speaker 4: I would just say that when you look back at 548 00:33:55,560 --> 00:34:01,720 Speaker 4: mister Poole's case, all of the heartbreakings and mistakes could 549 00:34:01,760 --> 00:34:06,239 Speaker 4: have been avoided and corrected. You know that actually kind 550 00:34:06,280 --> 00:34:09,440 Speaker 4: of makes me get up every day and do the work. 551 00:34:10,120 --> 00:34:13,680 Speaker 4: But I guess you know. My final thought to those 552 00:34:13,719 --> 00:34:16,440 Speaker 4: who are listening is just you know, a wrongful conviction 553 00:34:16,640 --> 00:34:21,080 Speaker 4: can happen to anyone, and we all love someone, so 554 00:34:21,160 --> 00:34:23,920 Speaker 4: that means it could happen to someone that we love. 555 00:34:24,239 --> 00:34:28,040 Speaker 4: Everyone's entitled to an effective attorney at trial and on appeal. 556 00:34:28,200 --> 00:34:33,000 Speaker 4: Everyone is entitled to a fair proceeding where things are 557 00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:36,279 Speaker 4: not made up in their criminal trial. We have to 558 00:34:36,400 --> 00:34:40,080 Speaker 4: start looking at innocents cases differently. We can't treat them 559 00:34:40,160 --> 00:34:46,919 Speaker 4: like typical appellate cases for sure, because years this When 560 00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:49,520 Speaker 4: we look back, right, we see Gill's case and we're like, 561 00:34:49,640 --> 00:34:52,959 Speaker 4: how did this take thirty two years? But yet Gill 562 00:34:53,120 --> 00:34:58,200 Speaker 4: knows and Chris knows, and I know that even after 563 00:34:58,239 --> 00:35:00,120 Speaker 4: thirty two years, it was a mirror. 564 00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:02,960 Speaker 3: Called mister Poole, what's your closing argument? 565 00:35:03,680 --> 00:35:08,200 Speaker 5: If you ask anybody what's the best criminal justice system 566 00:35:08,200 --> 00:35:10,600 Speaker 5: in the world. I don't think anybody's going to come 567 00:35:10,680 --> 00:35:14,040 Speaker 5: up with anything better than what the United States has. 568 00:35:15,080 --> 00:35:17,440 Speaker 5: But when you have human actors, and when you have 569 00:35:17,600 --> 00:35:23,879 Speaker 5: human interaction, personalities getting away, bad choices get in the way, 570 00:35:24,920 --> 00:35:28,680 Speaker 5: and bad actors get in the way. A lot of 571 00:35:28,680 --> 00:35:33,759 Speaker 5: that comes from no penalties for the bad actors. I 572 00:35:33,800 --> 00:35:38,040 Speaker 5: think the takeaway is here, take a real deep look 573 00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:47,960 Speaker 5: at the things that are presented from different perspectives. If 574 00:35:47,960 --> 00:35:50,600 Speaker 5: you look at things from a perspective that this was 575 00:35:50,640 --> 00:35:54,920 Speaker 5: all fabricated, it all makes sense. It was not because 576 00:35:54,960 --> 00:35:57,280 Speaker 5: I was guilty, It was because they had the ability 577 00:35:57,360 --> 00:36:02,120 Speaker 5: to do it without any penalty. So I think that 578 00:36:02,239 --> 00:36:03,280 Speaker 5: needs to be corrected. 579 00:36:06,480 --> 00:36:09,719 Speaker 2: Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction. I'd like to 580 00:36:09,719 --> 00:36:13,839 Speaker 2: thank our executive producers The Deadly Doctor, Jason Flamm and 581 00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:17,920 Speaker 2: Kevin Wardis. The senior producer for this episode is Jackie Pauley, 582 00:36:18,040 --> 00:36:21,600 Speaker 2: and our producers are Leila Robinson and Jeff Claiborne. Our 583 00:36:21,760 --> 00:36:25,680 Speaker 2: editor is Roxindra Gweedy. The music in this production is 584 00:36:25,719 --> 00:36:29,680 Speaker 2: by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure 585 00:36:29,719 --> 00:36:33,320 Speaker 2: to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction, on Facebook 586 00:36:33,360 --> 00:36:37,160 Speaker 2: at Wrongful Conviction Podcast, and on Twitter. At wrong Conviction 587 00:36:37,560 --> 00:36:40,759 Speaker 2: as well as at Lava for Good on all three platforms. 588 00:36:41,520 --> 00:36:44,600 Speaker 2: You can also follow me on Twitter at Chris Underscore 589 00:36:44,640 --> 00:36:50,640 Speaker 2: Fabricant and on Instagram at Chris Underscore Fabricant. Wrongful Conviction 590 00:36:50,960 --> 00:36:54,000 Speaker 2: is the production of Lava for Good Podcasts and association 591 00:36:54,160 --> 00:37:04,839 Speaker 2: with Signal Company Number One. 592 00:37:07,400 --> 00:37:10,120 Speaker 1: If you were riveted by the staircase, as I know 593 00:37:10,320 --> 00:37:13,040 Speaker 1: I was, you're gonna want to tune in next week 594 00:37:13,040 --> 00:37:17,000 Speaker 1: for the guest hosted episode of Wrongful Conviction Because get this, 595 00:37:17,760 --> 00:37:21,000 Speaker 1: the two incredible lawyers from the show, David Rudolph and 596 00:37:21,040 --> 00:37:24,640 Speaker 1: Sonya Pfeiffer, are going to talk to David's former client, 597 00:37:24,760 --> 00:37:27,120 Speaker 1: Michael Peterson, and you know that name about one of 598 00:37:27,120 --> 00:37:30,560 Speaker 1: the most famous and infamous wronful conviction stories in the 599 00:37:30,600 --> 00:37:34,000 Speaker 1: history of America. You know about the case, but now 600 00:37:34,040 --> 00:37:38,800 Speaker 1: you're going to hear the real story behind it. Tune 601 00:37:38,840 --> 00:37:42,800 Speaker 1: in listen next Monday in the Wrongful Conviction podcast feed.