WEBVTT - Lisa LaFlamme’s Silver Lining 0:00:03.640 --> 0:00:09.039 I'm Katie Kurik, and this is next question Lisa La Flam. 0:00:09.119 --> 0:00:11.879 She's long been a household name in her native Canada, 0:00:11.960 --> 0:00:15.280 where she worked for CTV for thirty five years. I 0:00:15.360 --> 0:00:18.720 felt you should hear this directly from me on June 0:00:18.720 --> 0:00:22.200 twenty ninth. But last summer she became the face of 0:00:22.360 --> 0:00:26.720 female outrage when she was unceremoniously let go from her 0:00:26.800 --> 0:00:31.960 job anchoring the Evening News. I was blindsided and I'm 0:00:32.040 --> 0:00:35.760 still shocked and saddened by Bell Media's decision. It was 0:00:35.800 --> 0:00:39.720 denied by her employers, but viewers and fans couldn't help 0:00:39.720 --> 0:00:43.959 but wonder if choosing to go gray was behind her 0:00:43.960 --> 0:00:47.400 pink slip. I was super jazzed to talk to Lisa, 0:00:47.479 --> 0:00:49.400 and it turns out we have a lot in common. 0:00:49.720 --> 0:00:53.120 In fact, she was once called Canada's Katie Kurik in 0:00:53.200 --> 0:00:56.600 one article. When it came to her firing, she couldn't 0:00:56.600 --> 0:01:00.160 get into details for legal reasons, but we still had 0:01:00.280 --> 0:01:05.800 plenty to talk about. If you want to get smarter 0:01:05.959 --> 0:01:08.720 about your career, make sure to check out Wake Up, 0:01:08.760 --> 0:01:12.920 Call It Work, a brand new newsletter by Kittie Currect Media, 0:01:13.160 --> 0:01:16.240 brought to you by Think with Google we'll be delivering 0:01:16.319 --> 0:01:19.679 fresh stories on all things business, tech and navigating the 0:01:19.720 --> 0:01:23.160 modern workplace. Follow me on LinkedIn to make sure you 0:01:23.360 --> 0:01:28.640 never miss an addition, Are you battling cancer? I'm passionate 0:01:28.680 --> 0:01:33.080 about raising awareness about early detection, and it's also critical 0:01:33.160 --> 0:01:38.200 to understand all treatment options, especially their impact on survival 0:01:38.440 --> 0:01:42.720 and quality of life. View Ray has reinvented cancer treatment 0:01:42.800 --> 0:01:47.559 with Meridian MRI guided radiation therapy. We're nearly eighty percent 0:01:47.600 --> 0:01:51.680 of patients complete treatment and as few as five sessions, 0:01:51.720 --> 0:01:56.120 often with little or no side effects. Innovation like Meridian 0:01:56.320 --> 0:01:59.919 gives hope to millions of people around the world. Locate 0:02:00.120 --> 0:02:06.120 I'm already and at fewry dot com. If you can 0:02:06.200 --> 0:02:11.120 bring your screen down just a bit. Yeah, now, let's 0:02:11.120 --> 0:02:15.360 get too perfect. Hi, Lisa, I'm so excited to be 0:02:15.520 --> 0:02:18.680 doing this. Thank you so much. I know we got 0:02:18.720 --> 0:02:22.160 a million things to talk about, woman, we really do, right, 0:02:23.360 --> 0:02:28.400 So um gosh, I've been reading about you and talking 0:02:28.440 --> 0:02:32.000 about you, and listening to other people talk about you. 0:02:32.520 --> 0:02:36.280 I guess I'll start with the most typical question is 0:02:36.800 --> 0:02:39.080 that you're never supposed to ask, but how are you 0:02:39.160 --> 0:02:43.760 doing well? I'm a little jetlagged. I've just come back 0:02:43.880 --> 0:02:48.359 from a great month in Africa working for Journalists for 0:02:48.480 --> 0:02:53.840 Human Rights on women's issues, actually for journalists and female 0:02:53.880 --> 0:02:58.880 politicians and teenage girls who are victims of rape and 0:02:59.040 --> 0:03:04.520 end up pregnant and have become outcast. Social worker Purity 0:03:04.560 --> 0:03:08.679 Geekunda has made it her mission that teenage mothers victims 0:03:08.680 --> 0:03:12.240 of rape and abuse as young as ten are back 0:03:12.240 --> 0:03:19.280 in class. She founded Greenland Schools Education. Incredibly full, inspiring, 0:03:19.480 --> 0:03:24.800 emotional and fulfilling month to be able to cover these 0:03:24.840 --> 0:03:30.399 stories for Journalists for Human Rights. And so how am I? 0:03:30.400 --> 0:03:36.000 I'm good? Obviously, your story, Lisa created a firestorm and 0:03:36.280 --> 0:03:41.240 you became the story which no journalists really likes. How 0:03:41.320 --> 0:03:45.400 uncomfortable were you that the whole world, or at least 0:03:45.440 --> 0:03:49.920 a lot of us, were talking about you. Well, the 0:03:50.040 --> 0:03:56.960 support obviously has been enormous globally. I realize that journalists 0:03:57.080 --> 0:04:01.760 we are a support system which I might not have 0:04:01.880 --> 0:04:06.840 known about, and women support women, which is huge for me. 0:04:07.480 --> 0:04:10.840 That has been a great comfort really at a time 0:04:10.840 --> 0:04:15.880 of change. August fifteenth of last year, you recorded something 0:04:16.080 --> 0:04:21.440 for your audience explaining what had happened and really thanking 0:04:21.480 --> 0:04:24.479 your viewers for their support. I want to play that 0:04:24.560 --> 0:04:27.560 real quickly, or at least part of it. Today, with 0:04:27.600 --> 0:04:30.560 a range of emotions, I'm sharing with you some information 0:04:30.600 --> 0:04:34.480 about me and my career with CTV News. For thirty 0:04:34.520 --> 0:04:37.320 five years, I have had the privilege of being welcomed 0:04:37.360 --> 0:04:40.640 into your homes to deliver the news on a nightly basis, 0:04:40.680 --> 0:04:43.359 so I felt you should hear this directly from me. 0:04:44.240 --> 0:04:47.440 On June twenty ninth, I was informed that Bell Media 0:04:47.680 --> 0:04:51.680 made a quote business decision to end my contract, bringing 0:04:51.720 --> 0:04:55.160 to a sudden close my long career with CTV News. 0:04:56.000 --> 0:04:58.680 I was also asked to keep this confidential from my 0:04:58.800 --> 0:05:01.680 colleagues and the pub like until the specifics of my 0:05:01.800 --> 0:05:06.160 exit could be resolved. That has now happened, and I 0:05:06.200 --> 0:05:08.640 want you to know what these last thirty five years 0:05:08.640 --> 0:05:14.360 have meant to me. Everything. Gosh, Lisa, when you listen 0:05:14.440 --> 0:05:21.440 to yourself say those words, I can only imagine what 0:05:21.480 --> 0:05:27.039 you're feeling. For you and I both covering sudden change 0:05:27.200 --> 0:05:30.240 is what we've always done. Let's face it, you never 0:05:30.320 --> 0:05:33.520 know when you wake up what's going to have happened 0:05:34.160 --> 0:05:38.240 in the world. So I was a very adept at 0:05:38.320 --> 0:05:45.159 covering sudden change, and I put everything in perspective, so 0:05:45.240 --> 0:05:50.000 this happened, and then my own sudden change gets As 0:05:50.040 --> 0:05:52.640 you said earlier, no journalist wants to be part of 0:05:52.680 --> 0:05:56.320 the story or the story. But it's all perspective for me. 0:05:56.839 --> 0:06:00.760 You know, I've seen Canadian and US sold and British 0:06:00.760 --> 0:06:03.880 soldiers have their legs blown off in Afghanistan. I've seen 0:06:03.960 --> 0:06:09.120 babies born in tarpolands in Haiti. Really that's the sudden 0:06:09.200 --> 0:06:12.480 change you don't come back from. And I put everything 0:06:12.640 --> 0:06:17.720 in perspective. I always have, including this, so I don't linger. 0:06:18.440 --> 0:06:21.719 I look forward, and I have to because I am 0:06:21.760 --> 0:06:26.200 an optimist. You had two years left on your contract, Lisa, 0:06:26.440 --> 0:06:31.159 Do you have any better understanding about how it happened, 0:06:31.560 --> 0:06:35.440 why it happened, and why it was handled the way 0:06:35.440 --> 0:06:38.400 it was handled. You know, the company has said, or 0:06:38.440 --> 0:06:43.480 a company spokesperson has said, repeatedly that your age, your gender, 0:06:43.800 --> 0:06:48.920 your gray hair played no role in this decision. Help 0:06:49.000 --> 0:06:53.520 me unpack this if you could, within the parameters that 0:06:53.640 --> 0:06:57.800 you are able to discuss it in. Honestly, everything I 0:06:57.839 --> 0:07:02.440 wrote and said in the tweet stands it was a 0:07:02.480 --> 0:07:06.280 business decision. What do we do? We're in this industry 0:07:06.400 --> 0:07:10.960 that we both love. We know business decisions happen every 0:07:10.960 --> 0:07:14.400 single day. People lose their jobs every single day, and 0:07:15.280 --> 0:07:18.240 many of my dear friends in this industry have lost 0:07:18.280 --> 0:07:22.160 their jobs. So that's the nature of the industry is change, 0:07:22.240 --> 0:07:25.320 and it is a very changing industry right now, as 0:07:25.360 --> 0:07:29.400 we both know. So, as I said, optimism is my 0:07:29.720 --> 0:07:33.720 default position, although I would say cynicism and optimism sort 0:07:33.760 --> 0:07:37.040 of our dance partners in my brain, I'm going to 0:07:37.120 --> 0:07:40.559 give optimism the lead, as I always do, because that's 0:07:41.240 --> 0:07:46.120 you know, the alternative isn't as pleasant. This incident struck 0:07:46.320 --> 0:07:51.000 such a chord among so many women. It's smacked of 0:07:51.320 --> 0:07:58.400 just terrible agism and sexism and a double standard that 0:07:58.600 --> 0:08:01.600 so many women have had to deal with. Certainly, I 0:08:01.640 --> 0:08:04.960 feel like I've had to deal with that my whole career. 0:08:06.080 --> 0:08:10.120 Let's speak send in generalities, because we've both been in 0:08:10.160 --> 0:08:12.720 this industry a long time and we know lots of 0:08:12.720 --> 0:08:16.360 women who have also been in it, and we call 0:08:16.440 --> 0:08:22.640 it agism, which is uniquely attached to women in general terms. 0:08:23.160 --> 0:08:27.640 We don't talk about agism when it comes to men, 0:08:28.560 --> 0:08:32.360 and I think that's an important distinction to make as 0:08:32.400 --> 0:08:38.679 a society. We should address this clearly. I think in 0:08:39.440 --> 0:08:44.480 broadcast journalism. Men are allowed to age and look distinguished, 0:08:44.720 --> 0:08:49.160 but when women start to show their age, it's jarring 0:08:49.240 --> 0:08:56.120 and off putting and considered, you know, not appealing to 0:08:56.160 --> 0:09:00.600 an audience, which is so infuriating, honestly, And I think 0:09:00.640 --> 0:09:04.160 part of it is because we don't have real role 0:09:04.240 --> 0:09:09.559 models of women being allowed to age naturally on television, 0:09:10.120 --> 0:09:14.200 and people like Anderson Cooper can have white hair the 0:09:14.240 --> 0:09:18.679 same color as your hair and be called a silver fox, 0:09:19.200 --> 0:09:22.680 but when it happens to a woman, it's a whole 0:09:22.720 --> 0:09:26.320 different ball game. Although I'm going to tell you when 0:09:26.360 --> 0:09:30.559 this process started for me, which by the way, decades ago, 0:09:30.720 --> 0:09:33.800 that I started going gray, and I've been coloring my 0:09:33.880 --> 0:09:37.840 hair forever. It feels like, in fact, you started going 0:09:37.880 --> 0:09:41.280 gray in your twenties, right, Yeah, I did. I did, 0:09:41.440 --> 0:09:44.720 and I had very dark hair, and you get used 0:09:44.760 --> 0:09:49.280 to coloring your hair, and I remember being tired of 0:09:49.280 --> 0:09:52.679 it well many many times over the years, especially when 0:09:52.679 --> 0:09:56.040 I was in specific like war zones, and you realize that, God, 0:09:55.840 --> 0:10:00.199 I've got three weeks. That's the window. We have three 0:10:00.240 --> 0:10:03.400 weeks before the roots start being obvious when you have 0:10:03.480 --> 0:10:07.720 really dark hair. I reached my max was when obviously 0:10:07.760 --> 0:10:12.240 the pandemic. All of the salons were closed in Toronto, 0:10:12.600 --> 0:10:16.960 and you're just you're covering like the weirdest, craziest story 0:10:17.200 --> 0:10:20.440 you've ever covered. And and I am not kidding. All 0:10:20.440 --> 0:10:24.120 of a sudden on a Friday, the city is shutting down, 0:10:24.120 --> 0:10:27.040 the world is shutting down. You're looking what's happening at 0:10:27.040 --> 0:10:30.160 in Wuhan and in Potma in Italy, and the last 0:10:30.200 --> 0:10:33.720 thing you're thinking about is your hair. So I one 0:10:33.840 --> 0:10:38.439 Saturday morning, in the very early days of the pandemic, 0:10:38.559 --> 0:10:42.440 obviously three weeks in, I just couldn't do it anymore. 0:10:42.559 --> 0:10:46.800 And that was it. And I remember very vividly being, 0:10:47.120 --> 0:10:49.360 you know, a few months in, and it is ugly. 0:10:49.440 --> 0:10:51.920 I mean, we all know it is not pretty to 0:10:52.000 --> 0:10:56.120 have a racing stripe or look like a skunk. Yeah, 0:10:56.120 --> 0:10:58.600 And I was in the dog my dog park here 0:10:59.120 --> 0:11:02.760 and a woman on a Saturday morning she took her 0:11:02.800 --> 0:11:05.560 It was almost like a merry Tyler Moore moment. She 0:11:05.679 --> 0:11:09.319 took her beret off. She said, I'm with you, Lisa, 0:11:09.400 --> 0:11:12.360 and she had the whole gunk going on, and I 0:11:12.360 --> 0:11:14.400 don't know, I just thought it was good, although I 0:11:14.400 --> 0:11:19.120 wish I could have worn a beret on for the news. Well, 0:11:19.200 --> 0:11:21.720 let me ask you, as a practical matter, how did 0:11:21.760 --> 0:11:26.120 you deal with that transition from dyeing your hair every 0:11:26.200 --> 0:11:29.600 three weeks to letting it become, by the way, the 0:11:29.679 --> 0:11:33.880 beautiful head of white hair you have now you're very 0:11:33.960 --> 0:11:40.080 fine time and all of a sudden it was done. 0:11:40.520 --> 0:11:44.160 There was a massive amount of email and tweets rather, 0:11:45.120 --> 0:11:48.560 but it was largely positive because people were going through 0:11:48.600 --> 0:11:51.800 the same thing. Did you get any negative feedback, either 0:11:52.000 --> 0:11:57.960 from within your company or outside the company? I'm curious 0:11:58.120 --> 0:12:02.640 what people were saying and writing about Well, I mean, 0:12:02.920 --> 0:12:07.160 obviously there were I don't know if you're the same 0:12:07.160 --> 0:12:10.640 as me, but you seem to remember the negative comments 0:12:10.640 --> 0:12:13.440 sadly more, I think that's pretty much human nature. I 0:12:13.440 --> 0:12:17.360 think everyone's like that. So, yes, there were some negative comments, 0:12:17.400 --> 0:12:20.280 but actually laughable. To be honest with you, I learned 0:12:20.280 --> 0:12:24.000 a long time ago to laugh at the people who 0:12:24.080 --> 0:12:28.480 had all this wide open criticism of any woman on TV, 0:12:28.880 --> 0:12:33.680 on Twitter. Okay, buddy, thanks, But you know, I would 0:12:33.679 --> 0:12:39.440 say the mass majority inside and outside was positive, And 0:12:39.640 --> 0:12:43.560 I remember thinking at one point, I guess like, you've 0:12:43.600 --> 0:12:45.920 gone too far now, you know, you get to this 0:12:46.000 --> 0:12:49.600 point you're like, Okay, you're three inches on either side 0:12:49.600 --> 0:12:53.559 of the parts. You're not going back. And so, how 0:12:53.600 --> 0:12:57.200 did the people at the station or you're at your network, 0:12:57.240 --> 0:13:00.440 how did people at CTV respond to it? Did you 0:13:00.440 --> 0:13:04.880 get any inkling that this was a problem, not at all? 0:13:05.240 --> 0:13:11.160 Totally positive, Totally positive. My female colleague, my male colleague, 0:13:11.240 --> 0:13:14.920 By the way, we have had a very dear the 0:13:15.000 --> 0:13:18.520 show producer who I used to call Anderson Cooper because 0:13:18.559 --> 0:13:21.959 he went prematurely gray and he's like, you're in the cloud, 0:13:22.080 --> 0:13:25.360 You're in the club when we come back. Lisa lets 0:13:25.360 --> 0:13:28.480 it rip when it comes to Don Lemon's remarks about 0:13:28.520 --> 0:13:35.719 women in their prime, Are you or a loved one 0:13:35.760 --> 0:13:40.439 battling cancer? 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We just have to keep, 0:15:06.360 --> 0:15:09.240 you know, naming and shaming, I guess, to try to 0:15:09.440 --> 0:15:14.120 expose a patriarchal society that I mean, I'm not kidding you. 0:15:14.240 --> 0:15:18.160 I was in Tunisia where we were working on stories 0:15:18.200 --> 0:15:22.760 about Believe It or Not, normalizing the idea of women 0:15:22.880 --> 0:15:29.360 on TV, normalizing the idea of women politicians. So we 0:15:29.840 --> 0:15:35.760 in North America we actually have made enormous strides, obviously, 0:15:36.160 --> 0:15:39.320 but it's clearly there's hurdles, and I guess it's just 0:15:39.360 --> 0:15:42.320 the support. It's the support network that we just can't 0:15:42.400 --> 0:15:46.080 let our side down. There was so much support for 0:15:46.160 --> 0:15:50.680 you from women everywhere and many men as well who 0:15:50.720 --> 0:15:54.800 thought you were treated very shoddily. It sort of makes 0:15:54.840 --> 0:15:59.320 me mad that they didn't reverse their decision, or we're 0:15:59.360 --> 0:16:02.880 not seeing you on another network delivering the evening news. 0:16:03.640 --> 0:16:06.760 What more can be done to make sure the message 0:16:06.840 --> 0:16:10.320 is being heard loud and clear and that people are 0:16:10.440 --> 0:16:15.680 voting with their remote controls. I will say, in general terms, 0:16:15.720 --> 0:16:21.440 in society, we don't realize or recognize or utilize the 0:16:21.560 --> 0:16:26.920 voice we have as consumers in this world, especially where 0:16:26.960 --> 0:16:29.840 we are. And I mean I'm not going to speak 0:16:29.880 --> 0:16:34.320 about my own situation because I can't, but I will 0:16:34.400 --> 0:16:39.920 say these things over time make a difference. Well, people, 0:16:39.960 --> 0:16:42.960 I don't think realize how much power they have. You know, 0:16:43.800 --> 0:16:49.400 when certain people boycott certain networks, they pay attention, and 0:16:49.520 --> 0:16:54.640 if they galvanize consumers to boycott a network, that can 0:16:54.680 --> 0:16:59.160 have a real impact. I am no conintended that I'm 0:16:59.200 --> 0:17:03.640 always looking for silver linings. I always was and I 0:17:03.840 --> 0:17:07.399 still am. So I think that that is an important 0:17:07.800 --> 0:17:11.760 thing for people to address. But in general, the subject 0:17:11.800 --> 0:17:16.399 of agism is something we shouldn't let our guard down. 0:17:16.520 --> 0:17:20.920 I mean, I look so much to you know indigenous 0:17:21.000 --> 0:17:25.880 cultures where it's the elders, the knowledge keepers we look 0:17:25.960 --> 0:17:30.639 to as our guides, and in other cultures it's women 0:17:30.680 --> 0:17:33.800 at a certain age become Was it Germaine Greer who 0:17:34.040 --> 0:17:38.200 called us crones at a certain age? That's something we 0:17:39.000 --> 0:17:42.800 can keep working to change. And as I said before, 0:17:42.840 --> 0:17:46.720 you you just keep calling something out. This is not 0:17:46.840 --> 0:17:51.960 about my situation. As I said, this is about women 0:17:52.160 --> 0:17:55.040 in general, and it's not something that just mattered to 0:17:55.080 --> 0:18:01.840 me recently. This is an issue of sexism and ageism. 0:18:02.960 --> 0:18:06.320 Anything ending in an ism, to be honest, has been 0:18:06.480 --> 0:18:11.960 something that has been worth focusing on analyzing and determining 0:18:12.240 --> 0:18:15.399 the veracity of it. If I can put that, I agree, 0:18:15.400 --> 0:18:19.160 except for feminism, that's a good ism, that's a greatism. 0:18:19.640 --> 0:18:23.639 Speaking of Germania, let's talk about sexism. Though. You know, 0:18:23.720 --> 0:18:26.840 I think you and I got into the news business 0:18:26.880 --> 0:18:30.080 around the same time. I'm a little older than you are, 0:18:30.359 --> 0:18:36.320 But do you feel that it's changed dramatically Because I 0:18:36.440 --> 0:18:39.560 joke in speeches that I got into TV news when 0:18:39.600 --> 0:18:44.119 harass was two words instead of one, and when people 0:18:44.760 --> 0:18:48.000 said that I lacked ravatas when I did the CBS 0:18:48.080 --> 0:18:51.440 Evening News, I said, I later discovered that is actually 0:18:51.520 --> 0:18:55.680 Latin for testicles, So I guess, I guess I'm wondering 0:18:56.160 --> 0:19:00.480 do you think that it's changed. I mean, they're certainly many, 0:19:00.600 --> 0:19:06.320 many more high profile women in television news, both on 0:19:06.480 --> 0:19:10.600 camera and behind the scenes and executive positions then there 0:19:10.640 --> 0:19:14.439 were when I started out by far, So do you 0:19:14.480 --> 0:19:17.520 think strides have been made? And what kind of bullshit 0:19:17.600 --> 0:19:19.719 did you have to deal with Lisa early on in 0:19:19.720 --> 0:19:24.720 your career. I'm just curious, Probably the same bullshit you 0:19:24.840 --> 0:19:29.000 had to deal with, because, first of all, top answer, absolutely, 0:19:29.040 --> 0:19:31.959 we've made strides. I mean, I remember begging to go 0:19:32.000 --> 0:19:36.400 to Baghdad twenty three years ago whatever it was. Now 0:19:36.560 --> 0:19:38.920 women are assigned if there women and men in an 0:19:38.920 --> 0:19:44.679 assignment desk doesn't decide based on gender, so that's huge. 0:19:45.560 --> 0:19:48.960 You grow a thix skin early on as a woman 0:19:49.119 --> 0:19:52.640 in this industry, so you have to learn to wear 0:19:52.760 --> 0:19:56.400 that six skin. Our first obligation is always to the 0:19:56.440 --> 0:20:00.320 truth and never to those people trying to tear us down. 0:20:00.680 --> 0:20:07.760 But you know, it's been a journey of beautiful progress 0:20:07.800 --> 0:20:12.480 for women. But growing up and certainly as a young reporter, no, 0:20:12.920 --> 0:20:18.040 Barbara Walters really was the one Diane Sawyer sixteen minutes. 0:20:18.119 --> 0:20:22.560 I remember visibly watching, thinking, okay, but I'm serious, there 0:20:22.640 --> 0:20:25.560 was there were a very few. I feel like progress 0:20:25.600 --> 0:20:29.200 has been made. And then I hear someone like Don 0:20:29.280 --> 0:20:34.119 Lemon making a bonehead remark on CNN about women in 0:20:34.200 --> 0:20:37.280 their prime. Let's listen to what Don had to say. 0:20:37.600 --> 0:20:40.480 This all talk about age makes me uncomfortable. I think 0:20:40.520 --> 0:20:42.680 that I think it's the wrong road to go down. 0:20:42.840 --> 0:20:45.240 She says, people, you know, politicians are something and not 0:20:45.320 --> 0:20:47.640 in their prime. Nicki Haley isn't in her prime. Sorry, 0:20:47.800 --> 0:20:49.959 when a woman is considered being her prime in our twenties, 0:20:49.960 --> 0:20:53.959 at thirties and maybe forties, that's not, according to me, 0:20:54.080 --> 0:20:57.080 prime for what it depends me. It's just like prime. 0:20:57.119 --> 0:20:58.679 If you look it up, it'll if you look if 0:20:58.680 --> 0:21:01.600 you google when is a woman in prime, it'll say twenties, 0:21:01.760 --> 0:21:06.000 thirties and forties. I say, I agree with that. So 0:21:06.080 --> 0:21:08.760 I think she has to be careful about saying that, 0:21:08.960 --> 0:21:11.080 you know, politicians aren't in their problem. You could qualifier 0:21:11.119 --> 0:21:15.080 you're talking about prime for like child or Lisa. I 0:21:15.200 --> 0:21:20.040 know Don Lemon and eighty five years old. No, he's 0:21:20.280 --> 0:21:23.000 he's actually a nice guy. I think maybe he was 0:21:23.040 --> 0:21:27.720 trying to be provocative, or maybe he was reacting to 0:21:27.920 --> 0:21:33.120 agism by Nicki Haley with sexism. Again, those isms probably 0:21:33.160 --> 0:21:35.920 not a good idea at all. But what was your 0:21:35.960 --> 0:21:40.520 reaction when you when you heard what he had said? Well, again, 0:21:40.600 --> 0:21:43.040 it's all through the chrism of the moment. And I 0:21:43.160 --> 0:21:48.280 was in Africa when that happened, and I had just 0:21:48.480 --> 0:21:53.679 been talking to a female politician, the first Arab woman 0:21:53.920 --> 0:21:58.040 ever to become the mayor of a major Arab city. 0:21:58.400 --> 0:22:03.479 And I do the interview, I go back and I'm checking, Oh, 0:22:03.520 --> 0:22:07.760 why is Don Lemon trending? I'm not joking. I was 0:22:07.920 --> 0:22:11.639 gobsmacked at the idiocy of that comment. I replayed it. 0:22:11.920 --> 0:22:17.600 Did I just hear that? There was a sanctimonious quality 0:22:17.680 --> 0:22:21.280 to the google it part that I just with stunned at. 0:22:21.920 --> 0:22:27.320 And I'm exhausted by the sort of the heads against 0:22:27.320 --> 0:22:31.440 the brick wall nature of a comment like that. Obviously, 0:22:32.200 --> 0:22:34.840 he wouldn't have said it if he didn't feel there 0:22:35.040 --> 0:22:38.920 was some kind of acceptability in society to make a 0:22:38.920 --> 0:22:43.399 comment like that, And that is a sad statement. I 0:22:43.440 --> 0:22:46.600 don't know the man, I do not know him, but 0:22:46.720 --> 0:22:51.679 I know that that comment gave me enormous insight into 0:22:51.800 --> 0:22:55.280 how his mind works, and I wish his mind would 0:22:55.280 --> 0:22:58.360 catch up with the calendar because it's you know, it's 0:22:58.400 --> 0:23:01.760 twenty twenty three, and that is not acceptable to me. 0:23:02.480 --> 0:23:06.800 How do we take him seriously when he interviews the 0:23:06.800 --> 0:23:11.119 next female politician or any woman's issue, really if you 0:23:11.359 --> 0:23:16.040 think the woman you're interviewing is over thirty or maybe forty. 0:23:16.720 --> 0:23:20.040 And as a husband, I don't know. I think he 0:23:20.119 --> 0:23:24.040 was trying to be cute and made a terrible mistake. 0:23:24.480 --> 0:23:28.240 And I'm not sure he really believes that. I think 0:23:28.280 --> 0:23:32.240 he was trying to be edgy or something. And is 0:23:32.480 --> 0:23:35.200 okay though when you have a position, as we both know, 0:23:35.800 --> 0:23:38.480 is a position of privilege. Oh, I don't think it's 0:23:38.480 --> 0:23:42.520 okay at all. I'm just trying to understand his motivation 0:23:42.600 --> 0:23:46.359 and what might have prompted him to make such a 0:23:46.359 --> 0:23:51.200 bonehead comment. Yeah, that's a good word for it. Up next, 0:23:51.400 --> 0:23:55.280 Lisa on the state of journalism in our polarized world. 0:23:55.760 --> 0:24:07.480 That's right after this. I'm curious to get your thoughts 0:24:07.560 --> 0:24:11.760 on sort of the modern media landscape. You know, linear 0:24:11.840 --> 0:24:18.399 television is declining every day, and as the demand declines, 0:24:19.080 --> 0:24:23.280 salaries are going down. As well, and I'm just curious 0:24:23.320 --> 0:24:29.960 how you feel about misinformation, disinformation, truth decay, as it's 0:24:30.000 --> 0:24:35.280 sometimes been called, living in a post factual world. It's 0:24:35.320 --> 0:24:39.800 just so dramatically different than it was when we started out. 0:24:40.520 --> 0:24:44.119 I don't know what are your thoughts on all of 0:24:44.200 --> 0:24:48.440 this change. I mean, I always think they've never been 0:24:48.480 --> 0:24:53.400 more informed and less enlightened. It's a difficult time because 0:24:53.440 --> 0:25:00.720 of misinformation. And I don't understand why people see their 0:25:00.800 --> 0:25:05.720 power of critical thinking. I mean traditional media where people 0:25:05.720 --> 0:25:09.360 are getting paid to work hard to learn a craft. 0:25:09.480 --> 0:25:11.879 It's like, would you go to Twitter if you had 0:25:12.200 --> 0:25:15.199 colon cancer and get advice? You know, if you had 0:25:15.240 --> 0:25:18.280 a lump in your breast, would you go to Instagram? No, 0:25:19.160 --> 0:25:21.640 you go to a doctor. So if you want a 0:25:21.720 --> 0:25:26.200 fact on what's going on in Ukraine or Afghanistan at 0:25:26.240 --> 0:25:29.560 this moment, why wouldn't you go to people who are 0:25:29.920 --> 0:25:34.239 professional journalists? Because learned that this is a craft that 0:25:34.280 --> 0:25:39.320 we've honed and that's our only job is to gather facts. 0:25:39.359 --> 0:25:43.160 And so I'm worried because I feel like we need 0:25:43.359 --> 0:25:47.040 some kind of correction in the world right now to 0:25:47.720 --> 0:25:51.960 expose the misinformation. It's not that difficult to check your sources. 0:25:52.440 --> 0:25:55.879 I mean, I've always believe media literacy is as important 0:25:55.880 --> 0:25:59.920 as math, maybe more important than math. Right now, since 0:26:00.040 --> 0:26:02.840 we have a phone we can quickly calculate, we don't 0:26:02.880 --> 0:26:07.080 really use our brain the way we had to, and 0:26:07.280 --> 0:26:11.480 that worries me. I mean Finland, for example, it is 0:26:11.480 --> 0:26:14.879 now in kindergarten part of the curriculum to teach the 0:26:14.960 --> 0:26:21.359 difference between real news, fake news, misinformation, disinformation. This should 0:26:21.440 --> 0:26:24.919 be everywhere, and I think during the pandemic one of 0:26:24.920 --> 0:26:29.119 the biggest legacies was misinformation, and there were nights I 0:26:29.240 --> 0:26:33.560 used to feel like we're spending half the time correcting 0:26:34.280 --> 0:26:39.199 false information, and sometimes that came from the highest levels 0:26:39.200 --> 0:26:45.560 of power, and that is very disconcerting. So there's a 0:26:45.560 --> 0:26:48.200 lot of work to do here, and we can't any 0:26:48.240 --> 0:26:51.080 of us stop. Do you think the genie is out 0:26:51.080 --> 0:26:54.879 of the bottle, that media literacy is our best hope, 0:26:54.960 --> 0:27:00.159 because it seems to me that correcting disinformation, that it's 0:27:00.200 --> 0:27:05.239 too pervasive, it's become too ubiquitous to to kind of 0:27:05.359 --> 0:27:10.159 corral it. At this point, I don't know, can't you 0:27:10.800 --> 0:27:15.359 can't can't I mean, honestly, we can't accept that. We 0:27:15.520 --> 0:27:21.760 have to keep fighting to expose misinformation, and I don't know. 0:27:21.920 --> 0:27:25.240 We are seeing it. We're seeing it crumble in certain places, 0:27:25.240 --> 0:27:29.080 and then it pops like WACA mole, you know, and 0:27:29.200 --> 0:27:33.320 that is frustrating. But I don't feel it's something we 0:27:33.400 --> 0:27:37.040 can ever. I mean, we're seeing trust being eroded, you know, 0:27:37.080 --> 0:27:41.480 all of the institutions of society, right, Yes, I agree, 0:27:41.600 --> 0:27:46.880 And I'm curious how you feel about this move towards 0:27:47.000 --> 0:27:51.280 more commentary on cable news. You know, for so long 0:27:52.240 --> 0:27:55.679 I've just been trained or I was trained as a journalist. 0:27:55.920 --> 0:27:59.280 And now I'm more outspoken because I have my own 0:27:59.280 --> 0:28:02.160 company and I can speak out about things that I 0:28:02.200 --> 0:28:07.360 am passionate about about gun violence or helping people understand 0:28:07.640 --> 0:28:11.880 sort of our changing notions of gender identity. But I 0:28:11.960 --> 0:28:16.520 never gave my opinion on anything, and now it is 0:28:16.960 --> 0:28:21.399 totally so different, particularly in cable news and prime time, 0:28:22.119 --> 0:28:26.960 And I'm wondering how you feel about that. I feel 0:28:27.000 --> 0:28:30.680 it's one of the reasons for the erosion. Actually, if 0:28:30.760 --> 0:28:34.159 people want to know what's happening in the world, you 0:28:34.280 --> 0:28:39.880