Speaker 1: I'm Katie Kurik, and this is next question Lisa La Flam.
Speaker 1: She's long been a household name in her native Canada,
Speaker 1: where she worked for CTV for thirty five years. I
Speaker 1: felt you should hear this directly from me on June
Speaker 1: twenty ninth. But last summer she became the face of
Speaker 1: female outrage when she was unceremoniously let go from her
Speaker 1: job anchoring the Evening News. I was blindsided and I'm
Speaker 1: still shocked and saddened by Bell Media's decision. It was
Speaker 1: denied by her employers, but viewers and fans couldn't help
Speaker 1: but wonder if choosing to go gray was behind her
Speaker 1: pink slip. I was super jazzed to talk to Lisa,
Speaker 1: and it turns out we have a lot in common.
Speaker 1: In fact, she was once called Canada's Katie Kurik in
Speaker 1: one article. When it came to her firing, she couldn't
Speaker 1: get into details for legal reasons, but we still had
Speaker 1: plenty to talk about. If you want to get smarter
Speaker 1: about your career, make sure to check out Wake Up,
Speaker 1: Call It Work, a brand new newsletter by Kittie Currect Media,
Speaker 1: brought to you by Think with Google we'll be delivering
Speaker 1: fresh stories on all things business, tech and navigating the
Speaker 1: modern workplace. Follow me on LinkedIn to make sure you
Speaker 1: never miss an addition, Are you battling cancer? I'm passionate
Speaker 1: about raising awareness about early detection, and it's also critical
Speaker 1: to understand all treatment options, especially their impact on survival
Speaker 1: and quality of life. View Ray has reinvented cancer treatment
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Speaker 1: of patients complete treatment and as few as five sessions,
Speaker 1: often with little or no side effects. Innovation like Meridian
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Speaker 1: I'm already and at fewry dot com. If you can
Speaker 1: bring your screen down just a bit. Yeah, now, let's
Speaker 1: get too perfect. Hi, Lisa, I'm so excited to be
Speaker 1: doing this. Thank you so much. I know we got
Speaker 1: a million things to talk about, woman, we really do, right,
Speaker 1: So um gosh, I've been reading about you and talking
Speaker 1: about you, and listening to other people talk about you.
Speaker 1: I guess I'll start with the most typical question is
Speaker 1: that you're never supposed to ask, but how are you
Speaker 1: doing well? I'm a little jetlagged. I've just come back
Speaker 1: from a great month in Africa working for Journalists for
Speaker 1: Human Rights on women's issues, actually for journalists and female
Speaker 1: politicians and teenage girls who are victims of rape and
Speaker 1: end up pregnant and have become outcast. Social worker Purity
Speaker 1: Geekunda has made it her mission that teenage mothers victims
Speaker 1: of rape and abuse as young as ten are back
Speaker 1: in class. She founded Greenland Schools Education. Incredibly full, inspiring,
Speaker 1: emotional and fulfilling month to be able to cover these
Speaker 1: stories for Journalists for Human Rights. And so how am I?
Speaker 1: I'm good? Obviously, your story, Lisa created a firestorm and
Speaker 1: you became the story which no journalists really likes. How
Speaker 1: uncomfortable were you that the whole world, or at least
Speaker 1: a lot of us, were talking about you. Well, the
Speaker 1: support obviously has been enormous globally. I realize that journalists
Speaker 1: we are a support system which I might not have
Speaker 1: known about, and women support women, which is huge for me.
Speaker 1: That has been a great comfort really at a time
Speaker 1: of change. August fifteenth of last year, you recorded something
Speaker 1: for your audience explaining what had happened and really thanking
Speaker 1: your viewers for their support. I want to play that
Speaker 1: real quickly, or at least part of it. Today, with
Speaker 1: a range of emotions, I'm sharing with you some information
Speaker 1: about me and my career with CTV News. For thirty
Speaker 1: five years, I have had the privilege of being welcomed
Speaker 1: into your homes to deliver the news on a nightly basis,
Speaker 1: so I felt you should hear this directly from me.
Speaker 1: On June twenty ninth, I was informed that Bell Media
Speaker 1: made a quote business decision to end my contract, bringing
Speaker 1: to a sudden close my long career with CTV News.
Speaker 1: I was also asked to keep this confidential from my
Speaker 1: colleagues and the pub like until the specifics of my
Speaker 1: exit could be resolved. That has now happened, and I
Speaker 1: want you to know what these last thirty five years
Speaker 1: have meant to me. Everything. Gosh, Lisa, when you listen
Speaker 1: to yourself say those words, I can only imagine what
Speaker 1: you're feeling. For you and I both covering sudden change
Speaker 1: is what we've always done. Let's face it, you never
Speaker 1: know when you wake up what's going to have happened
Speaker 1: in the world. So I was a very adept at
Speaker 1: covering sudden change, and I put everything in perspective, so
Speaker 1: this happened, and then my own sudden change gets As
Speaker 1: you said earlier, no journalist wants to be part of
Speaker 1: the story or the story. But it's all perspective for me.
Speaker 1: You know, I've seen Canadian and US sold and British
Speaker 1: soldiers have their legs blown off in Afghanistan. I've seen
Speaker 1: babies born in tarpolands in Haiti. Really that's the sudden
Speaker 1: change you don't come back from. And I put everything
Speaker 1: in perspective. I always have, including this, so I don't linger.
Speaker 1: I look forward, and I have to because I am
Speaker 1: an optimist. You had two years left on your contract, Lisa,
Speaker 1: Do you have any better understanding about how it happened,
Speaker 1: why it happened, and why it was handled the way
Speaker 1: it was handled. You know, the company has said, or
Speaker 1: a company spokesperson has said, repeatedly that your age, your gender,
Speaker 1: your gray hair played no role in this decision. Help
Speaker 1: me unpack this if you could, within the parameters that
Speaker 1: you are able to discuss it in. Honestly, everything I
Speaker 1: wrote and said in the tweet stands it was a
Speaker 1: business decision. What do we do? We're in this industry
Speaker 1: that we both love. We know business decisions happen every
Speaker 1: single day. People lose their jobs every single day, and
Speaker 1: many of my dear friends in this industry have lost
Speaker 1: their jobs. So that's the nature of the industry is change,
Speaker 1: and it is a very changing industry right now, as
Speaker 1: we both know. So, as I said, optimism is my
Speaker 1: default position, although I would say cynicism and optimism sort
Speaker 1: of our dance partners in my brain, I'm going to
Speaker 1: give optimism the lead, as I always do, because that's
Speaker 1: you know, the alternative isn't as pleasant. This incident struck
Speaker 1: such a chord among so many women. It's smacked of
Speaker 1: just terrible agism and sexism and a double standard that
Speaker 1: so many women have had to deal with. Certainly, I
Speaker 1: feel like I've had to deal with that my whole career.
Speaker 1: Let's speak send in generalities, because we've both been in
Speaker 1: this industry a long time and we know lots of
Speaker 1: women who have also been in it, and we call
Speaker 1: it agism, which is uniquely attached to women in general terms.
Speaker 1: We don't talk about agism when it comes to men,
Speaker 1: and I think that's an important distinction to make as
Speaker 1: a society. We should address this clearly. I think in
Speaker 1: broadcast journalism. Men are allowed to age and look distinguished,
Speaker 1: but when women start to show their age, it's jarring
Speaker 1: and off putting and considered, you know, not appealing to
Speaker 1: an audience, which is so infuriating, honestly, And I think
Speaker 1: part of it is because we don't have real role
Speaker 1: models of women being allowed to age naturally on television,
Speaker 1: and people like Anderson Cooper can have white hair the
Speaker 1: same color as your hair and be called a silver fox,
Speaker 1: but when it happens to a woman, it's a whole
Speaker 1: different ball game. Although I'm going to tell you when
Speaker 1: this process started for me, which by the way, decades ago,
Speaker 1: that I started going gray, and I've been coloring my
Speaker 1: hair forever. It feels like, in fact, you started going
Speaker 1: gray in your twenties, right, Yeah, I did. I did,
Speaker 1: and I had very dark hair, and you get used
Speaker 1: to coloring your hair, and I remember being tired of
Speaker 1: it well many many times over the years, especially when
Speaker 1: I was in specific like war zones, and you realize that, God,
Speaker 1: I've got three weeks. That's the window. We have three
Speaker 1: weeks before the roots start being obvious when you have
Speaker 1: really dark hair. I reached my max was when obviously
Speaker 1: the pandemic. All of the salons were closed in Toronto,
Speaker 1: and you're just you're covering like the weirdest, craziest story
Speaker 1: you've ever covered. And and I am not kidding. All
Speaker 1: of a sudden on a Friday, the city is shutting down,
Speaker 1: the world is shutting down. You're looking what's happening at
Speaker 1: in Wuhan and in Potma in Italy, and the last
Speaker 1: thing you're thinking about is your hair. So I one
Speaker 1: Saturday morning, in the very early days of the pandemic,
Speaker 1: obviously three weeks in, I just couldn't do it anymore.
Speaker 1: And that was it. And I remember very vividly being,
Speaker 1: you know, a few months in, and it is ugly.
Speaker 1: I mean, we all know it is not pretty to
Speaker 1: have a racing stripe or look like a skunk. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And I was in the dog my dog park here
Speaker 1: and a woman on a Saturday morning she took her
Speaker 1: It was almost like a merry Tyler Moore moment. She
Speaker 1: took her beret off. She said, I'm with you, Lisa,
Speaker 1: and she had the whole gunk going on, and I
Speaker 1: don't know, I just thought it was good, although I
Speaker 1: wish I could have worn a beret on for the news. Well,
Speaker 1: let me ask you, as a practical matter, how did
Speaker 1: you deal with that transition from dyeing your hair every
Speaker 1: three weeks to letting it become, by the way, the
Speaker 1: beautiful head of white hair you have now you're very
Speaker 1: fine time and all of a sudden it was done.
Speaker 1: There was a massive amount of email and tweets rather,
Speaker 1: but it was largely positive because people were going through
Speaker 1: the same thing. Did you get any negative feedback, either
Speaker 1: from within your company or outside the company? I'm curious
Speaker 1: what people were saying and writing about Well, I mean,
Speaker 1: obviously there were I don't know if you're the same
Speaker 1: as me, but you seem to remember the negative comments
Speaker 1: sadly more, I think that's pretty much human nature. I
Speaker 1: think everyone's like that. So, yes, there were some negative comments,
Speaker 1: but actually laughable. To be honest with you, I learned
Speaker 1: a long time ago to laugh at the people who
Speaker 1: had all this wide open criticism of any woman on TV,
Speaker 1: on Twitter. Okay, buddy, thanks, But you know, I would
Speaker 1: say the mass majority inside and outside was positive, And
Speaker 1: I remember thinking at one point, I guess like, you've
Speaker 1: gone too far now, you know, you get to this
Speaker 1: point you're like, Okay, you're three inches on either side
Speaker 1: of the parts. You're not going back. And so, how
Speaker 1: did the people at the station or you're at your network,
Speaker 1: how did people at CTV respond to it? Did you
Speaker 1: get any inkling that this was a problem, not at all?
Speaker 1: Totally positive, Totally positive. My female colleague, my male colleague,
Speaker 1: By the way, we have had a very dear the
Speaker 1: show producer who I used to call Anderson Cooper because
Speaker 1: he went prematurely gray and he's like, you're in the cloud,
Speaker 1: You're in the club when we come back. Lisa lets
Speaker 1: it rip when it comes to Don Lemon's remarks about
Speaker 1: women in their prime, Are you or a loved one
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Speaker 1: How can we support women as they age in a
Speaker 1: whole host of fields. We've got voices and platforms and
Speaker 1: ways of express seeing how we feel when we see
Speaker 1: this kind of misogyny and sexism. We just have to keep,
Speaker 1: you know, naming and shaming, I guess, to try to
Speaker 1: expose a patriarchal society that I mean, I'm not kidding you.
Speaker 1: I was in Tunisia where we were working on stories
Speaker 1: about Believe It or Not, normalizing the idea of women
Speaker 1: on TV, normalizing the idea of women politicians. So we
Speaker 1: in North America we actually have made enormous strides, obviously,
Speaker 1: but it's clearly there's hurdles, and I guess it's just
Speaker 1: the support. It's the support network that we just can't
Speaker 1: let our side down. There was so much support for
Speaker 1: you from women everywhere and many men as well who
Speaker 1: thought you were treated very shoddily. It sort of makes
Speaker 1: me mad that they didn't reverse their decision, or we're
Speaker 1: not seeing you on another network delivering the evening news.
Speaker 1: What more can be done to make sure the message
Speaker 1: is being heard loud and clear and that people are
Speaker 1: voting with their remote controls. I will say, in general terms,
Speaker 1: in society, we don't realize or recognize or utilize the
Speaker 1: voice we have as consumers in this world, especially where
Speaker 1: we are. And I mean I'm not going to speak
Speaker 1: about my own situation because I can't, but I will
Speaker 1: say these things over time make a difference. Well, people,
Speaker 1: I don't think realize how much power they have. You know,
Speaker 1: when certain people boycott certain networks, they pay attention, and
Speaker 1: if they galvanize consumers to boycott a network, that can
Speaker 1: have a real impact. I am no conintended that I'm
Speaker 1: always looking for silver linings. I always was and I
Speaker 1: still am. So I think that that is an important
Speaker 1: thing for people to address. But in general, the subject
Speaker 1: of agism is something we shouldn't let our guard down.
Speaker 1: I mean, I look so much to you know indigenous
Speaker 1: cultures where it's the elders, the knowledge keepers we look
Speaker 1: to as our guides, and in other cultures it's women
Speaker 1: at a certain age become Was it Germaine Greer who
Speaker 1: called us crones at a certain age? That's something we
Speaker 1: can keep working to change. And as I said before,
Speaker 1: you you just keep calling something out. This is not
Speaker 1: about my situation. As I said, this is about women
Speaker 1: in general, and it's not something that just mattered to
Speaker 1: me recently. This is an issue of sexism and ageism.
Speaker 1: Anything ending in an ism, to be honest, has been
Speaker 1: something that has been worth focusing on analyzing and determining
Speaker 1: the veracity of it. If I can put that, I agree,
Speaker 1: except for feminism, that's a good ism, that's a greatism.
Speaker 1: Speaking of Germania, let's talk about sexism. Though. You know,
Speaker 1: I think you and I got into the news business
Speaker 1: around the same time. I'm a little older than you are,
Speaker 1: But do you feel that it's changed dramatically Because I
Speaker 1: joke in speeches that I got into TV news when
Speaker 1: harass was two words instead of one, and when people
Speaker 1: said that I lacked ravatas when I did the CBS
Speaker 1: Evening News, I said, I later discovered that is actually
Speaker 1: Latin for testicles, So I guess, I guess I'm wondering
Speaker 1: do you think that it's changed. I mean, they're certainly many,
Speaker 1: many more high profile women in television news, both on
Speaker 1: camera and behind the scenes and executive positions then there
Speaker 1: were when I started out by far, So do you
Speaker 1: think strides have been made? And what kind of bullshit
Speaker 1: did you have to deal with Lisa early on in
Speaker 1: your career. I'm just curious, Probably the same bullshit you
Speaker 1: had to deal with, because, first of all, top answer, absolutely,
Speaker 1: we've made strides. I mean, I remember begging to go
Speaker 1: to Baghdad twenty three years ago whatever it was. Now
Speaker 1: women are assigned if there women and men in an
Speaker 1: assignment desk doesn't decide based on gender, so that's huge.
Speaker 1: You grow a thix skin early on as a woman
Speaker 1: in this industry, so you have to learn to wear
Speaker 1: that six skin. Our first obligation is always to the
Speaker 1: truth and never to those people trying to tear us down.
Speaker 1: But you know, it's been a journey of beautiful progress
Speaker 1: for women. But growing up and certainly as a young reporter, no,
Speaker 1: Barbara Walters really was the one Diane Sawyer sixteen minutes.
Speaker 1: I remember visibly watching, thinking, okay, but I'm serious, there
Speaker 1: was there were a very few. I feel like progress
Speaker 1: has been made. And then I hear someone like Don
Speaker 1: Lemon making a bonehead remark on CNN about women in
Speaker 1: their prime. Let's listen to what Don had to say.
Speaker 1: This all talk about age makes me uncomfortable. I think
Speaker 1: that I think it's the wrong road to go down.
Speaker 1: She says, people, you know, politicians are something and not
Speaker 1: in their prime. Nicki Haley isn't in her prime. Sorry,
Speaker 1: when a woman is considered being her prime in our twenties,
Speaker 1: at thirties and maybe forties, that's not, according to me,
Speaker 1: prime for what it depends me. It's just like prime.
Speaker 1: If you look it up, it'll if you look if
Speaker 1: you google when is a woman in prime, it'll say twenties,
Speaker 1: thirties and forties. I say, I agree with that. So
Speaker 1: I think she has to be careful about saying that,
Speaker 1: you know, politicians aren't in their problem. You could qualifier
Speaker 1: you're talking about prime for like child or Lisa. I
Speaker 1: know Don Lemon and eighty five years old. No, he's
Speaker 1: he's actually a nice guy. I think maybe he was
Speaker 1: trying to be provocative, or maybe he was reacting to
Speaker 1: agism by Nicki Haley with sexism. Again, those isms probably
Speaker 1: not a good idea at all. But what was your
Speaker 1: reaction when you when you heard what he had said? Well, again,
Speaker 1: it's all through the chrism of the moment. And I
Speaker 1: was in Africa when that happened, and I had just
Speaker 1: been talking to a female politician, the first Arab woman
Speaker 1: ever to become the mayor of a major Arab city.
Speaker 1: And I do the interview, I go back and I'm checking, Oh,
Speaker 1: why is Don Lemon trending? I'm not joking. I was
Speaker 1: gobsmacked at the idiocy of that comment. I replayed it.
Speaker 1: Did I just hear that? There was a sanctimonious quality
Speaker 1: to the google it part that I just with stunned at.
Speaker 1: And I'm exhausted by the sort of the heads against
Speaker 1: the brick wall nature of a comment like that. Obviously,
Speaker 1: he wouldn't have said it if he didn't feel there
Speaker 1: was some kind of acceptability in society to make a
Speaker 1: comment like that, And that is a sad statement. I
Speaker 1: don't know the man, I do not know him, but
Speaker 1: I know that that comment gave me enormous insight into
Speaker 1: how his mind works, and I wish his mind would
Speaker 1: catch up with the calendar because it's you know, it's
Speaker 1: twenty twenty three, and that is not acceptable to me.
Speaker 1: How do we take him seriously when he interviews the
Speaker 1: next female politician or any woman's issue, really if you
Speaker 1: think the woman you're interviewing is over thirty or maybe forty.
Speaker 1: And as a husband, I don't know. I think he
Speaker 1: was trying to be cute and made a terrible mistake.
Speaker 1: And I'm not sure he really believes that. I think
Speaker 1: he was trying to be edgy or something. And is
Speaker 1: okay though when you have a position, as we both know,
Speaker 1: is a position of privilege. Oh, I don't think it's
Speaker 1: okay at all. I'm just trying to understand his motivation
Speaker 1: and what might have prompted him to make such a
Speaker 1: bonehead comment. Yeah, that's a good word for it. Up next,
Speaker 1: Lisa on the state of journalism in our polarized world.
Speaker 1: That's right after this. I'm curious to get your thoughts
Speaker 1: on sort of the modern media landscape. You know, linear
Speaker 1: television is declining every day, and as the demand declines,
Speaker 1: salaries are going down. As well, and I'm just curious
Speaker 1: how you feel about misinformation, disinformation, truth decay, as it's
Speaker 1: sometimes been called, living in a post factual world. It's
Speaker 1: just so dramatically different than it was when we started out.
Speaker 1: I don't know what are your thoughts on all of
Speaker 1: this change. I mean, I always think they've never been
Speaker 1: more informed and less enlightened. It's a difficult time because
Speaker 1: of misinformation. And I don't understand why people see their
Speaker 1: power of critical thinking. I mean traditional media where people
Speaker 1: are getting paid to work hard to learn a craft.
Speaker 1: It's like, would you go to Twitter if you had
Speaker 1: colon cancer and get advice? You know, if you had
Speaker 1: a lump in your breast, would you go to Instagram? No,
Speaker 1: you go to a doctor. So if you want a
Speaker 1: fact on what's going on in Ukraine or Afghanistan at
Speaker 1: this moment, why wouldn't you go to people who are
Speaker 1: professional journalists? Because learned that this is a craft that
Speaker 1: we've honed and that's our only job is to gather facts.
Speaker 1: And so I'm worried because I feel like we need
Speaker 1: some kind of correction in the world right now to
Speaker 1: expose the misinformation. It's not that difficult to check your sources.
Speaker 1: I mean, I've always believe media literacy is as important
Speaker 1: as math, maybe more important than math. Right now, since
Speaker 1: we have a phone we can quickly calculate, we don't
Speaker 1: really use our brain the way we had to, and
Speaker 1: that worries me. I mean Finland, for example, it is
Speaker 1: now in kindergarten part of the curriculum to teach the
Speaker 1: difference between real news, fake news, misinformation, disinformation. This should
Speaker 1: be everywhere, and I think during the pandemic one of
Speaker 1: the biggest legacies was misinformation, and there were nights I
Speaker 1: used to feel like we're spending half the time correcting
Speaker 1: false information, and sometimes that came from the highest levels
Speaker 1: of power, and that is very disconcerting. So there's a
Speaker 1: lot of work to do here, and we can't any
Speaker 1: of us stop. Do you think the genie is out
Speaker 1: of the bottle, that media literacy is our best hope,
Speaker 1: because it seems to me that correcting disinformation, that it's
Speaker 1: too pervasive, it's become too ubiquitous to to kind of
Speaker 1: corral it. At this point, I don't know, can't you
Speaker 1: can't can't I mean, honestly, we can't accept that. We
Speaker 1: have to keep fighting to expose misinformation, and I don't know.
Speaker 1: We are seeing it. We're seeing it crumble in certain places,
Speaker 1: and then it pops like WACA mole, you know, and
Speaker 1: that is frustrating. But I don't feel it's something we
Speaker 1: can ever. I mean, we're seeing trust being eroded, you know,
Speaker 1: all of the institutions of society, right, Yes, I agree,
Speaker 1: And I'm curious how you feel about this move towards
Speaker 1: more commentary on cable news. You know, for so long
Speaker 1: I've just been trained or I was trained as a journalist.
Speaker 1: And now I'm more outspoken because I have my own
Speaker 1: company and I can speak out about things that I
Speaker 1: am passionate about about gun violence or helping people understand
Speaker 1: sort of our changing notions of gender identity. But I
Speaker 1: never gave my opinion on anything, and now it is
Speaker 1: totally so different, particularly in cable news and prime time,
Speaker 1: And I'm wondering how you feel about that. I feel
Speaker 1: it's one of the reasons for the erosion. Actually, if
Speaker 1: people want to know what's happening in the world, you
Speaker 1: need on the ground field reporters who can cover it
Speaker 1: through their eyes, trusted eyes show it's what's happening. Don't
Speaker 1: give me your opinion. I do love I've got to
Speaker 1: be honest. I'm a complete newspaper junkie for columns well
Speaker 1: thought out, I just write. I love reading that. I
Speaker 1: don't know, I feel that is part of them, and
Speaker 1: I don't know if it's a money thing. I have
Speaker 1: no idea why it seems like that's taken over. I
Speaker 1: think it's because a shrinking audience, you have to get
Speaker 1: a certain piece of the pie. So instead of giving
Speaker 1: information which I think people don't necessarily have a visceral
Speaker 1: response to, right, And it takes intellectual work to be
Speaker 1: a critical thinker that to get sort of like minded
Speaker 1: audience who wants to hear kind of a reinforcement or
Speaker 1: validation of their own pre existing views that they gravitate
Speaker 1: towards people who reflect those views. But in the end,
Speaker 1: what have you learned? Actually, Like, if you look at
Speaker 1: the situation on the ground in Ukraine right now, I mean,
Speaker 1: you can hear all of the chats we'll call it chat,
Speaker 1: it is only the very rare which is still still there.
Speaker 1: It's still there. You know, generals who've experienced war in
Speaker 1: any Afghanistan or Iraq, who can look at the actual
Speaker 1: battle front and give you some knowledge that might give
Speaker 1: you an insight into where it's going next. But the
Speaker 1: general I don't know. With general chat, if we're actually
Speaker 1: informing the public, and I agree with you, I am
Speaker 1: trained also to just give the facts. And that's a
Speaker 1: comfortable place to be because I know what to do
Speaker 1: with facts. I'm seeing something, I'm asking questions, I'm getting answers,
Speaker 1: and that is the fact for that moment in that place,
Speaker 1: and we reflect it back. Otherwise, I don't know. I'm
Speaker 1: not equipped. I couldn't possibly give people an opinion that
Speaker 1: would be worth it for a conflict of that nature
Speaker 1: or any of these things. I don't understand actually why
Speaker 1: it's shifted so dramatically onto the chat format and away
Speaker 1: from news. That's why I ask could it be money
Speaker 1: in the sense that fewer resources in the industry at large,
Speaker 1: I mean fewer field reporters. That's definitely part of it.
Speaker 1: I mean producing an in studio show with people giving
Speaker 1: their opinions is a lot less expensive than having foreign
Speaker 1: bureaus and having reporters on the ground. And you know,
Speaker 1: I think they're still obviously places that do that and
Speaker 1: do it well. And I also think having Donald Trump
Speaker 1: as president presented certain challenges to news organizations in terms
Speaker 1: of how they handled misinformation that he was perpetuating, that
Speaker 1: the president of the United States was perpetuating and if
Speaker 1: they corrected him, they would be considered biased or criticized him,
Speaker 1: or it made it even more complex and even murkier.
Speaker 1: And I'm sort of along those lines to get your
Speaker 1: opinion on Fox News because in the dominion lawsuit, it's
Speaker 1: come to its surface. And I'm sure you've been reading
Speaker 1: about this, Lisa, that their primetime anchors knew that there
Speaker 1: were falsehoods being perpetrated by people about a stolen election,
Speaker 1: but they also knew their audience and they were afraid
Speaker 1: they were gravitating to more more conservative upstart networks like Newsmax,
Speaker 1: and so they intentionally lied to their audience and they
Speaker 1: told them what they wanted to hear. And to me,
Speaker 1: that is such a betrayal and so Craven and as
Speaker 1: Rupert Murdoch himself said, it was a business decision. Now
Speaker 1: the question is do Fox News viewers even care that
Speaker 1: they were lied to? But that's a question, and also
Speaker 1: accountability democracy is something we should protect and not allow.
Speaker 1: I think I don't know what the viewership is at
Speaker 1: the moment for Fox, I assume it's gone down since Trump. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but they're still the highest rated cable in the United States.
Speaker 1: So I wasn't shocked by any of that. I guess
Speaker 1: I was surprised that he under oath admitted they knew
Speaker 1: it was a lie. It's all about the principles of journalism,
Speaker 1: and I guess maybe therein lies the difference. At one point,
Speaker 1: you've got to declare yourself you're either a journalist or
Speaker 1: you're not, and we all do have to follow some
Speaker 1: kind of code of ethics or else it just becomes
Speaker 1: a circus. And that has been a dangerous circus what's
Speaker 1: unfolded and perpetuating lie in America. And this has all
Speaker 1: been a learning experience, I think for everybody since twenty sixteen,
Speaker 1: and the world. It's not just an American situation. It
Speaker 1: is a world question now, and that makes it really
Speaker 1: important that we don't take our eye off the ball
Speaker 1: and see what are the consequences of this admittance on
Speaker 1: the stand that, yes, our on air people, I'm not
Speaker 1: going to call them journalists if they've been lying, openly,
Speaker 1: knowingly lying, that's not journalism. One oh one. Let's face it,
Speaker 1: it's wrong. And I don't know what the outcome of
Speaker 1: this is going to be. Do you have a clue
Speaker 1: of where it might go. I don't because I think
Speaker 1: a lot of Fox News viewers aren't convinced that this
Speaker 1: was the case, despite all evidence to the contrary, that
Speaker 1: the election was somehow stolen, and that's something that Donald
Speaker 1: Trump continues to say. And I think because it's not
Speaker 1: being covered where they're getting their news, I'm not sure
Speaker 1: it will have an impact on their viewership. Yeah, that's
Speaker 1: the dangerous element to all of it. You hear what
Speaker 1: you want to hear, selective hearing. And I don't know
Speaker 1: what the way around that is, except we are in
Speaker 1: a polarized world right now. It has probably been never
Speaker 1: this bad in history the last six years, growing though,
Speaker 1: and I do as I said, I feel there is
Speaker 1: going to be a correction because it can't stand. This
Speaker 1: can't continue this way misinformation, which is the greatest threat
Speaker 1: to democracy. People just don't even realize what they're letting
Speaker 1: slip through their fingers. And I will again point to
Speaker 1: having just been in countries where it's just a word
Speaker 1: free press and a media freedom and democracy. These are
Speaker 1: just words and we take it for granted, and that
Speaker 1: is very disheartening for me to see on a global scale.
Speaker 1: It really is. We don't know how lucky we have it.
Speaker 1: Are Canadians as polarized as Americans? I would say we are,
Speaker 1: We're growing. We are very polarized in this country and
Speaker 1: the world is. It's the same in the UK, it's
Speaker 1: the same in France. There's probably not a Western country
Speaker 1: right now that is not as polarized. And I sadly
Speaker 1: will say the reason that the central theme of it
Speaker 1: is people coming on one side or the other of immigration,
Speaker 1: and that is the part that really personally hurts me.
Speaker 1: Having covered so many of these conflicts around the world,
Speaker 1: and I'm going to speak specifically to what's happening in Afghanistan.
Speaker 1: And you know, nobody wants to leave their culture, their language,
Speaker 1: their friends, their relatives willingly and go to a country
Speaker 1: where they don't know anything. It's because it's a life
Speaker 1: or death situation. And I think, sadly that is one
Speaker 1: of the reasons that has generated this division in the world.
Speaker 1: What do we do with victims of conflict? I mean,
Speaker 1: certainly Afghanistan is I'm going to use the term gender apartheid.
Speaker 1: What's happening that, you know, little girls can no longer
Speaker 1: go to school and women who for twenty years have
Speaker 1: been going to university and working and now they're hiding.
Speaker 1: The women I know personally are hiding in their basements.
Speaker 1: They're putting their kids, their little girls, through secret schools.
Speaker 1: This is not okay. This it's not okay. And I
Speaker 1: don't know, I'm going on a bit of a tangent there,
Speaker 1: but it is something I think does not get enough
Speaker 1: coverage now. And I understand why, being in the industry,
Speaker 1: we know we only have a capacity for so much
Speaker 1: conflict and then people sort of turn away. But this
Speaker 1: is when I think we need to refocus on I
Speaker 1: really do. And again it does come down to the
Speaker 1: politics of crisis and how we weaponize it. Sadly, I agree,
Speaker 1: I agree. I mean, yes, I think modern politicians are
Speaker 1: more interested in using issues against each other than actually
Speaker 1: fixing anything. And that's so sad because that is such
Speaker 1: a position of privilege. Really, you're an elected official, You're
Speaker 1: put in a position to work for the public. I
Speaker 1: don't know, I can't. I have trouble. I have trouble
Speaker 1: with a lot of these things, but not like you.
Speaker 1: I mean I also wasn't speaking out about things like that.
Speaker 1: Now I can speak freely about what I see what
Speaker 1: I see specifically, as I said, I know there are
Speaker 1: issues with indigenous women in this country and your country,
Speaker 1: and immigrant women, but I really do think there's more
Speaker 1: we can do as a society. Is it liberating in
Speaker 1: some ways to be able to address some of these
Speaker 1: issues that you couldn't address when you were anchoring an
Speaker 1: evening newscast? Absolutely it is. I mean there's there's things
Speaker 1: that you could say to your team around the pod,
Speaker 1: but you wouldn't say on air if you felt that
Speaker 1: any particular government wasn't doing enough, wasn't fulfilling an obligation
Speaker 1: that they'd made to whomever domestically or internationally. And yeah,
Speaker 1: now I can. I mean I'm not I'm not really
Speaker 1: that person to be honest politically, but but I can know,
Speaker 1: and in an opportunity, if I'm asked, I don't have
Speaker 1: to shy away from it. And there's definitely liberty. It's
Speaker 1: about what we do with our voices that can help
Speaker 1: empower younger women. I think, Lisa, do you think you
Speaker 1: have a book in you. I don't know. I marveled
Speaker 1: at your book that you remembered so much. I feel
Speaker 1: sometimes if I ever wanted to sit down and write
Speaker 1: the book, how would I? And I do? I have
Speaker 1: box loads of handwritten note books and all of that,
Speaker 1: and it seems like a mammoth operation to even open
Speaker 1: them and look through it. But maybe one day I'll
Speaker 1: know when the time is right. Well, listen, Lisa, thank
Speaker 1: you so much for spending all this time. It's been
Speaker 1: a real pleasure. I feel like we're old friends now
Speaker 1: that we sat down over a long, potentially boozy lunch.
Speaker 1: We need that hopefully, Yeah, next time, next time with cocktails. Anyway,
Speaker 1: good luck to you, and thanks again for coming on
Speaker 1: the podcast. I'm I'm really grateful. It was really great
Speaker 1: to talk to you. Katie, and I just so appreciate
Speaker 1: the opportunity to sort of share some of the things
Speaker 1: we've both experienced and the passion I think we both
Speaker 1: share for the industry that we don't want to see destroyed.
Speaker 1: It's a wonderful profession, and I think we both feel
Speaker 1: very fortunate to have had the careers we've we've had,
Speaker 1: and hey, we're not dead yet, well exactly Thank you Lisa,
Speaker 1: Thank you Katie. Great to talk to you. Thanks for listening. Everyone.
Speaker 1: If you have a question for me or want to
Speaker 1: share your thoughts about how you navigate this crazy world
Speaker 1: reach out, You can leave a short message at six
Speaker 1: O nine five point two five five o five, or
Speaker 1: you can send me a DM on Instagram. I would
Speaker 1: love to hear from you. Next Question is a production
Speaker 1: of iHeartMedia and Katie Currek Media. The executive producers are Me,
Speaker 1: Katie Curick, and Courtney Litz. Our supervising producer is Marcy Thompson.
Speaker 1: Our producers are Adriana Fasio and Catherine Law. Our audio
Speaker 1: engineer is Matt Russell, who also composed our theme music.
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