1 00:00:03,640 --> 00:00:09,039 Speaker 1: I'm Katie Kurik, and this is next question Lisa La Flam. 2 00:00:09,119 --> 00:00:11,879 Speaker 1: She's long been a household name in her native Canada, 3 00:00:11,960 --> 00:00:15,280 Speaker 1: where she worked for CTV for thirty five years. I 4 00:00:15,360 --> 00:00:18,720 Speaker 1: felt you should hear this directly from me on June 5 00:00:18,720 --> 00:00:22,200 Speaker 1: twenty ninth. But last summer she became the face of 6 00:00:22,360 --> 00:00:26,720 Speaker 1: female outrage when she was unceremoniously let go from her 7 00:00:26,800 --> 00:00:31,960 Speaker 1: job anchoring the Evening News. I was blindsided and I'm 8 00:00:32,040 --> 00:00:35,760 Speaker 1: still shocked and saddened by Bell Media's decision. It was 9 00:00:35,800 --> 00:00:39,720 Speaker 1: denied by her employers, but viewers and fans couldn't help 10 00:00:39,720 --> 00:00:43,959 Speaker 1: but wonder if choosing to go gray was behind her 11 00:00:43,960 --> 00:00:47,400 Speaker 1: pink slip. I was super jazzed to talk to Lisa, 12 00:00:47,479 --> 00:00:49,400 Speaker 1: and it turns out we have a lot in common. 13 00:00:49,720 --> 00:00:53,120 Speaker 1: In fact, she was once called Canada's Katie Kurik in 14 00:00:53,200 --> 00:00:56,600 Speaker 1: one article. When it came to her firing, she couldn't 15 00:00:56,600 --> 00:01:00,160 Speaker 1: get into details for legal reasons, but we still had 16 00:01:00,280 --> 00:01:05,800 Speaker 1: plenty to talk about. If you want to get smarter 17 00:01:05,959 --> 00:01:08,720 Speaker 1: about your career, make sure to check out Wake Up, 18 00:01:08,760 --> 00:01:12,920 Speaker 1: Call It Work, a brand new newsletter by Kittie Currect Media, 19 00:01:13,160 --> 00:01:16,240 Speaker 1: brought to you by Think with Google we'll be delivering 20 00:01:16,319 --> 00:01:19,679 Speaker 1: fresh stories on all things business, tech and navigating the 21 00:01:19,720 --> 00:01:23,160 Speaker 1: modern workplace. Follow me on LinkedIn to make sure you 22 00:01:23,360 --> 00:01:28,640 Speaker 1: never miss an addition, Are you battling cancer? I'm passionate 23 00:01:28,680 --> 00:01:33,080 Speaker 1: about raising awareness about early detection, and it's also critical 24 00:01:33,160 --> 00:01:38,200 Speaker 1: to understand all treatment options, especially their impact on survival 25 00:01:38,440 --> 00:01:42,720 Speaker 1: and quality of life. View Ray has reinvented cancer treatment 26 00:01:42,800 --> 00:01:47,559 Speaker 1: with Meridian MRI guided radiation therapy. We're nearly eighty percent 27 00:01:47,600 --> 00:01:51,680 Speaker 1: of patients complete treatment and as few as five sessions, 28 00:01:51,720 --> 00:01:56,120 Speaker 1: often with little or no side effects. Innovation like Meridian 29 00:01:56,320 --> 00:01:59,919 Speaker 1: gives hope to millions of people around the world. Locate 30 00:02:00,120 --> 00:02:06,120 Speaker 1: I'm already and at fewry dot com. If you can 31 00:02:06,200 --> 00:02:11,120 Speaker 1: bring your screen down just a bit. Yeah, now, let's 32 00:02:11,120 --> 00:02:15,360 Speaker 1: get too perfect. Hi, Lisa, I'm so excited to be 33 00:02:15,520 --> 00:02:18,680 Speaker 1: doing this. Thank you so much. I know we got 34 00:02:18,720 --> 00:02:22,160 Speaker 1: a million things to talk about, woman, we really do, right, 35 00:02:23,360 --> 00:02:28,400 Speaker 1: So um gosh, I've been reading about you and talking 36 00:02:28,440 --> 00:02:32,000 Speaker 1: about you, and listening to other people talk about you. 37 00:02:32,520 --> 00:02:36,280 Speaker 1: I guess I'll start with the most typical question is 38 00:02:36,800 --> 00:02:39,080 Speaker 1: that you're never supposed to ask, but how are you 39 00:02:39,160 --> 00:02:43,760 Speaker 1: doing well? I'm a little jetlagged. I've just come back 40 00:02:43,880 --> 00:02:48,359 Speaker 1: from a great month in Africa working for Journalists for 41 00:02:48,480 --> 00:02:53,840 Speaker 1: Human Rights on women's issues, actually for journalists and female 42 00:02:53,880 --> 00:02:58,880 Speaker 1: politicians and teenage girls who are victims of rape and 43 00:02:59,040 --> 00:03:04,520 Speaker 1: end up pregnant and have become outcast. Social worker Purity 44 00:03:04,560 --> 00:03:08,679 Speaker 1: Geekunda has made it her mission that teenage mothers victims 45 00:03:08,680 --> 00:03:12,240 Speaker 1: of rape and abuse as young as ten are back 46 00:03:12,240 --> 00:03:19,280 Speaker 1: in class. She founded Greenland Schools Education. Incredibly full, inspiring, 47 00:03:19,480 --> 00:03:24,800 Speaker 1: emotional and fulfilling month to be able to cover these 48 00:03:24,840 --> 00:03:30,399 Speaker 1: stories for Journalists for Human Rights. And so how am I? 49 00:03:30,400 --> 00:03:36,000 Speaker 1: I'm good? Obviously, your story, Lisa created a firestorm and 50 00:03:36,280 --> 00:03:41,240 Speaker 1: you became the story which no journalists really likes. How 51 00:03:41,320 --> 00:03:45,400 Speaker 1: uncomfortable were you that the whole world, or at least 52 00:03:45,440 --> 00:03:49,920 Speaker 1: a lot of us, were talking about you. Well, the 53 00:03:50,040 --> 00:03:56,960 Speaker 1: support obviously has been enormous globally. I realize that journalists 54 00:03:57,080 --> 00:04:01,760 Speaker 1: we are a support system which I might not have 55 00:04:01,880 --> 00:04:06,840 Speaker 1: known about, and women support women, which is huge for me. 56 00:04:07,480 --> 00:04:10,840 Speaker 1: That has been a great comfort really at a time 57 00:04:10,840 --> 00:04:15,880 Speaker 1: of change. August fifteenth of last year, you recorded something 58 00:04:16,080 --> 00:04:21,440 Speaker 1: for your audience explaining what had happened and really thanking 59 00:04:21,480 --> 00:04:24,479 Speaker 1: your viewers for their support. I want to play that 60 00:04:24,560 --> 00:04:27,560 Speaker 1: real quickly, or at least part of it. Today, with 61 00:04:27,600 --> 00:04:30,560 Speaker 1: a range of emotions, I'm sharing with you some information 62 00:04:30,600 --> 00:04:34,480 Speaker 1: about me and my career with CTV News. For thirty 63 00:04:34,520 --> 00:04:37,320 Speaker 1: five years, I have had the privilege of being welcomed 64 00:04:37,360 --> 00:04:40,640 Speaker 1: into your homes to deliver the news on a nightly basis, 65 00:04:40,680 --> 00:04:43,359 Speaker 1: so I felt you should hear this directly from me. 66 00:04:44,240 --> 00:04:47,440 Speaker 1: On June twenty ninth, I was informed that Bell Media 67 00:04:47,680 --> 00:04:51,680 Speaker 1: made a quote business decision to end my contract, bringing 68 00:04:51,720 --> 00:04:55,160 Speaker 1: to a sudden close my long career with CTV News. 69 00:04:56,000 --> 00:04:58,680 Speaker 1: I was also asked to keep this confidential from my 70 00:04:58,800 --> 00:05:01,680 Speaker 1: colleagues and the pub like until the specifics of my 71 00:05:01,800 --> 00:05:06,160 Speaker 1: exit could be resolved. That has now happened, and I 72 00:05:06,200 --> 00:05:08,640 Speaker 1: want you to know what these last thirty five years 73 00:05:08,640 --> 00:05:14,360 Speaker 1: have meant to me. Everything. Gosh, Lisa, when you listen 74 00:05:14,440 --> 00:05:21,440 Speaker 1: to yourself say those words, I can only imagine what 75 00:05:21,480 --> 00:05:27,039 Speaker 1: you're feeling. For you and I both covering sudden change 76 00:05:27,200 --> 00:05:30,240 Speaker 1: is what we've always done. Let's face it, you never 77 00:05:30,320 --> 00:05:33,520 Speaker 1: know when you wake up what's going to have happened 78 00:05:34,160 --> 00:05:38,240 Speaker 1: in the world. So I was a very adept at 79 00:05:38,320 --> 00:05:45,159 Speaker 1: covering sudden change, and I put everything in perspective, so 80 00:05:45,240 --> 00:05:50,000 Speaker 1: this happened, and then my own sudden change gets As 81 00:05:50,040 --> 00:05:52,640 Speaker 1: you said earlier, no journalist wants to be part of 82 00:05:52,680 --> 00:05:56,320 Speaker 1: the story or the story. But it's all perspective for me. 83 00:05:56,839 --> 00:06:00,760 Speaker 1: You know, I've seen Canadian and US sold and British 84 00:06:00,760 --> 00:06:03,880 Speaker 1: soldiers have their legs blown off in Afghanistan. I've seen 85 00:06:03,960 --> 00:06:09,120 Speaker 1: babies born in tarpolands in Haiti. Really that's the sudden 86 00:06:09,200 --> 00:06:12,480 Speaker 1: change you don't come back from. And I put everything 87 00:06:12,640 --> 00:06:17,720 Speaker 1: in perspective. I always have, including this, so I don't linger. 88 00:06:18,440 --> 00:06:21,719 Speaker 1: I look forward, and I have to because I am 89 00:06:21,760 --> 00:06:26,200 Speaker 1: an optimist. You had two years left on your contract, Lisa, 90 00:06:26,440 --> 00:06:31,159 Speaker 1: Do you have any better understanding about how it happened, 91 00:06:31,560 --> 00:06:35,440 Speaker 1: why it happened, and why it was handled the way 92 00:06:35,440 --> 00:06:38,400 Speaker 1: it was handled. You know, the company has said, or 93 00:06:38,440 --> 00:06:43,480 Speaker 1: a company spokesperson has said, repeatedly that your age, your gender, 94 00:06:43,800 --> 00:06:48,920 Speaker 1: your gray hair played no role in this decision. Help 95 00:06:49,000 --> 00:06:53,520 Speaker 1: me unpack this if you could, within the parameters that 96 00:06:53,640 --> 00:06:57,800 Speaker 1: you are able to discuss it in. Honestly, everything I 97 00:06:57,839 --> 00:07:02,440 Speaker 1: wrote and said in the tweet stands it was a 98 00:07:02,480 --> 00:07:06,280 Speaker 1: business decision. What do we do? We're in this industry 99 00:07:06,400 --> 00:07:10,960 Speaker 1: that we both love. We know business decisions happen every 100 00:07:10,960 --> 00:07:14,400 Speaker 1: single day. People lose their jobs every single day, and 101 00:07:15,280 --> 00:07:18,240 Speaker 1: many of my dear friends in this industry have lost 102 00:07:18,280 --> 00:07:22,160 Speaker 1: their jobs. So that's the nature of the industry is change, 103 00:07:22,240 --> 00:07:25,320 Speaker 1: and it is a very changing industry right now, as 104 00:07:25,360 --> 00:07:29,400 Speaker 1: we both know. So, as I said, optimism is my 105 00:07:29,720 --> 00:07:33,720 Speaker 1: default position, although I would say cynicism and optimism sort 106 00:07:33,760 --> 00:07:37,040 Speaker 1: of our dance partners in my brain, I'm going to 107 00:07:37,120 --> 00:07:40,559 Speaker 1: give optimism the lead, as I always do, because that's 108 00:07:41,240 --> 00:07:46,120 Speaker 1: you know, the alternative isn't as pleasant. This incident struck 109 00:07:46,320 --> 00:07:51,000 Speaker 1: such a chord among so many women. It's smacked of 110 00:07:51,320 --> 00:07:58,400 Speaker 1: just terrible agism and sexism and a double standard that 111 00:07:58,600 --> 00:08:01,600 Speaker 1: so many women have had to deal with. Certainly, I 112 00:08:01,640 --> 00:08:04,960 Speaker 1: feel like I've had to deal with that my whole career. 113 00:08:06,080 --> 00:08:10,120 Speaker 1: Let's speak send in generalities, because we've both been in 114 00:08:10,160 --> 00:08:12,720 Speaker 1: this industry a long time and we know lots of 115 00:08:12,720 --> 00:08:16,360 Speaker 1: women who have also been in it, and we call 116 00:08:16,440 --> 00:08:22,640 Speaker 1: it agism, which is uniquely attached to women in general terms. 117 00:08:23,160 --> 00:08:27,640 Speaker 1: We don't talk about agism when it comes to men, 118 00:08:28,560 --> 00:08:32,360 Speaker 1: and I think that's an important distinction to make as 119 00:08:32,400 --> 00:08:38,679 Speaker 1: a society. We should address this clearly. I think in 120 00:08:39,440 --> 00:08:44,480 Speaker 1: broadcast journalism. Men are allowed to age and look distinguished, 121 00:08:44,720 --> 00:08:49,160 Speaker 1: but when women start to show their age, it's jarring 122 00:08:49,240 --> 00:08:56,120 Speaker 1: and off putting and considered, you know, not appealing to 123 00:08:56,160 --> 00:09:00,600 Speaker 1: an audience, which is so infuriating, honestly, And I think 124 00:09:00,640 --> 00:09:04,160 Speaker 1: part of it is because we don't have real role 125 00:09:04,240 --> 00:09:09,559 Speaker 1: models of women being allowed to age naturally on television, 126 00:09:10,120 --> 00:09:14,200 Speaker 1: and people like Anderson Cooper can have white hair the 127 00:09:14,240 --> 00:09:18,679 Speaker 1: same color as your hair and be called a silver fox, 128 00:09:19,200 --> 00:09:22,680 Speaker 1: but when it happens to a woman, it's a whole 129 00:09:22,720 --> 00:09:26,320 Speaker 1: different ball game. Although I'm going to tell you when 130 00:09:26,360 --> 00:09:30,559 Speaker 1: this process started for me, which by the way, decades ago, 131 00:09:30,720 --> 00:09:33,800 Speaker 1: that I started going gray, and I've been coloring my 132 00:09:33,880 --> 00:09:37,840 Speaker 1: hair forever. It feels like, in fact, you started going 133 00:09:37,880 --> 00:09:41,280 Speaker 1: gray in your twenties, right, Yeah, I did. I did, 134 00:09:41,440 --> 00:09:44,720 Speaker 1: and I had very dark hair, and you get used 135 00:09:44,760 --> 00:09:49,280 Speaker 1: to coloring your hair, and I remember being tired of 136 00:09:49,280 --> 00:09:52,679 Speaker 1: it well many many times over the years, especially when 137 00:09:52,679 --> 00:09:56,040 Speaker 1: I was in specific like war zones, and you realize that, God, 138 00:09:55,840 --> 00:10:00,199 Speaker 1: I've got three weeks. That's the window. We have three 139 00:10:00,240 --> 00:10:03,400 Speaker 1: weeks before the roots start being obvious when you have 140 00:10:03,480 --> 00:10:07,720 Speaker 1: really dark hair. I reached my max was when obviously 141 00:10:07,760 --> 00:10:12,240 Speaker 1: the pandemic. All of the salons were closed in Toronto, 142 00:10:12,600 --> 00:10:16,960 Speaker 1: and you're just you're covering like the weirdest, craziest story 143 00:10:17,200 --> 00:10:20,440 Speaker 1: you've ever covered. And and I am not kidding. All 144 00:10:20,440 --> 00:10:24,120 Speaker 1: of a sudden on a Friday, the city is shutting down, 145 00:10:24,120 --> 00:10:27,040 Speaker 1: the world is shutting down. You're looking what's happening at 146 00:10:27,040 --> 00:10:30,160 Speaker 1: in Wuhan and in Potma in Italy, and the last 147 00:10:30,200 --> 00:10:33,720 Speaker 1: thing you're thinking about is your hair. So I one 148 00:10:33,840 --> 00:10:38,439 Speaker 1: Saturday morning, in the very early days of the pandemic, 149 00:10:38,559 --> 00:10:42,440 Speaker 1: obviously three weeks in, I just couldn't do it anymore. 150 00:10:42,559 --> 00:10:46,800 Speaker 1: And that was it. And I remember very vividly being, 151 00:10:47,120 --> 00:10:49,360 Speaker 1: you know, a few months in, and it is ugly. 152 00:10:49,440 --> 00:10:51,920 Speaker 1: I mean, we all know it is not pretty to 153 00:10:52,000 --> 00:10:56,120 Speaker 1: have a racing stripe or look like a skunk. Yeah, 154 00:10:56,120 --> 00:10:58,600 Speaker 1: And I was in the dog my dog park here 155 00:10:59,120 --> 00:11:02,760 Speaker 1: and a woman on a Saturday morning she took her 156 00:11:02,800 --> 00:11:05,560 Speaker 1: It was almost like a merry Tyler Moore moment. She 157 00:11:05,679 --> 00:11:09,319 Speaker 1: took her beret off. She said, I'm with you, Lisa, 158 00:11:09,400 --> 00:11:12,360 Speaker 1: and she had the whole gunk going on, and I 159 00:11:12,360 --> 00:11:14,400 Speaker 1: don't know, I just thought it was good, although I 160 00:11:14,400 --> 00:11:19,120 Speaker 1: wish I could have worn a beret on for the news. Well, 161 00:11:19,200 --> 00:11:21,720 Speaker 1: let me ask you, as a practical matter, how did 162 00:11:21,760 --> 00:11:26,120 Speaker 1: you deal with that transition from dyeing your hair every 163 00:11:26,200 --> 00:11:29,600 Speaker 1: three weeks to letting it become, by the way, the 164 00:11:29,679 --> 00:11:33,880 Speaker 1: beautiful head of white hair you have now you're very 165 00:11:33,960 --> 00:11:40,080 Speaker 1: fine time and all of a sudden it was done. 166 00:11:40,520 --> 00:11:44,160 Speaker 1: There was a massive amount of email and tweets rather, 167 00:11:45,120 --> 00:11:48,560 Speaker 1: but it was largely positive because people were going through 168 00:11:48,600 --> 00:11:51,800 Speaker 1: the same thing. Did you get any negative feedback, either 169 00:11:52,000 --> 00:11:57,960 Speaker 1: from within your company or outside the company? I'm curious 170 00:11:58,120 --> 00:12:02,640 Speaker 1: what people were saying and writing about Well, I mean, 171 00:12:02,920 --> 00:12:07,160 Speaker 1: obviously there were I don't know if you're the same 172 00:12:07,160 --> 00:12:10,640 Speaker 1: as me, but you seem to remember the negative comments 173 00:12:10,640 --> 00:12:13,440 Speaker 1: sadly more, I think that's pretty much human nature. I 174 00:12:13,440 --> 00:12:17,360 Speaker 1: think everyone's like that. So, yes, there were some negative comments, 175 00:12:17,400 --> 00:12:20,280 Speaker 1: but actually laughable. To be honest with you, I learned 176 00:12:20,280 --> 00:12:24,000 Speaker 1: a long time ago to laugh at the people who 177 00:12:24,080 --> 00:12:28,480 Speaker 1: had all this wide open criticism of any woman on TV, 178 00:12:28,880 --> 00:12:33,680 Speaker 1: on Twitter. Okay, buddy, thanks, But you know, I would 179 00:12:33,679 --> 00:12:39,440 Speaker 1: say the mass majority inside and outside was positive, And 180 00:12:39,640 --> 00:12:43,560 Speaker 1: I remember thinking at one point, I guess like, you've 181 00:12:43,600 --> 00:12:45,920 Speaker 1: gone too far now, you know, you get to this 182 00:12:46,000 --> 00:12:49,600 Speaker 1: point you're like, Okay, you're three inches on either side 183 00:12:49,600 --> 00:12:53,559 Speaker 1: of the parts. You're not going back. And so, how 184 00:12:53,600 --> 00:12:57,200 Speaker 1: did the people at the station or you're at your network, 185 00:12:57,240 --> 00:13:00,440 Speaker 1: how did people at CTV respond to it? Did you 186 00:13:00,440 --> 00:13:04,880 Speaker 1: get any inkling that this was a problem, not at all? 187 00:13:05,240 --> 00:13:11,160 Speaker 1: Totally positive, Totally positive. My female colleague, my male colleague, 188 00:13:11,240 --> 00:13:14,920 Speaker 1: By the way, we have had a very dear the 189 00:13:15,000 --> 00:13:18,520 Speaker 1: show producer who I used to call Anderson Cooper because 190 00:13:18,559 --> 00:13:21,959 Speaker 1: he went prematurely gray and he's like, you're in the cloud, 191 00:13:22,080 --> 00:13:25,360 Speaker 1: You're in the club when we come back. Lisa lets 192 00:13:25,360 --> 00:13:28,480 Speaker 1: it rip when it comes to Don Lemon's remarks about 193 00:13:28,520 --> 00:13:35,719 Speaker 1: women in their prime, Are you or a loved one 194 00:13:35,760 --> 00:13:40,439 Speaker 1: battling cancer? I'm passionate about raising awareness about the importance 195 00:13:40,440 --> 00:13:44,560 Speaker 1: of early detection and for patients and their caregivers to 196 00:13:44,679 --> 00:13:49,440 Speaker 1: fully understand all available treatment options, especially those that have 197 00:13:49,640 --> 00:13:54,360 Speaker 1: meaningful impact to extending survival and improving quality of life. 198 00:13:55,120 --> 00:13:58,280 Speaker 1: You know, too often the length of treatment, recovery period, 199 00:13:58,360 --> 00:14:01,960 Speaker 1: and debilitating side effect can be difficult to cope with. 200 00:14:02,640 --> 00:14:07,240 Speaker 1: Our partners at Viewray have reinvented cancer treatment with Meridian 201 00:14:07,520 --> 00:14:12,160 Speaker 1: MRI guided radiation therapy for those who qualify around eighty 202 00:14:12,200 --> 00:14:16,959 Speaker 1: percent of patients complete treatment and as few as five sessions, 203 00:14:16,960 --> 00:14:21,640 Speaker 1: often with little or no side effects. Viewray is working 204 00:14:21,680 --> 00:14:25,480 Speaker 1: to educate patients about this life changing cancer treatment and 205 00:14:25,640 --> 00:14:29,680 Speaker 1: where patients can find a Meridian treatment center. Innovation like 206 00:14:29,800 --> 00:14:32,720 Speaker 1: Meridian gives me hope for the millions of people around 207 00:14:32,760 --> 00:14:37,080 Speaker 1: the world currently battling cancer. So talk to your doctor 208 00:14:37,360 --> 00:14:49,000 Speaker 1: to find hospitals where Meridian is available. Visit viewray dot com. 209 00:14:49,040 --> 00:14:53,760 Speaker 1: How can we support women as they age in a 210 00:14:53,840 --> 00:14:58,480 Speaker 1: whole host of fields. We've got voices and platforms and 211 00:14:58,880 --> 00:15:02,360 Speaker 1: ways of express seeing how we feel when we see 212 00:15:02,400 --> 00:15:05,920 Speaker 1: this kind of misogyny and sexism. We just have to keep, 213 00:15:06,360 --> 00:15:09,240 Speaker 1: you know, naming and shaming, I guess, to try to 214 00:15:09,440 --> 00:15:14,120 Speaker 1: expose a patriarchal society that I mean, I'm not kidding you. 215 00:15:14,240 --> 00:15:18,160 Speaker 1: I was in Tunisia where we were working on stories 216 00:15:18,200 --> 00:15:22,760 Speaker 1: about Believe It or Not, normalizing the idea of women 217 00:15:22,880 --> 00:15:29,360 Speaker 1: on TV, normalizing the idea of women politicians. So we 218 00:15:29,840 --> 00:15:35,760 Speaker 1: in North America we actually have made enormous strides, obviously, 219 00:15:36,160 --> 00:15:39,320 Speaker 1: but it's clearly there's hurdles, and I guess it's just 220 00:15:39,360 --> 00:15:42,320 Speaker 1: the support. It's the support network that we just can't 221 00:15:42,400 --> 00:15:46,080 Speaker 1: let our side down. There was so much support for 222 00:15:46,160 --> 00:15:50,680 Speaker 1: you from women everywhere and many men as well who 223 00:15:50,720 --> 00:15:54,800 Speaker 1: thought you were treated very shoddily. It sort of makes 224 00:15:54,840 --> 00:15:59,320 Speaker 1: me mad that they didn't reverse their decision, or we're 225 00:15:59,360 --> 00:16:02,880 Speaker 1: not seeing you on another network delivering the evening news. 226 00:16:03,640 --> 00:16:06,760 Speaker 1: What more can be done to make sure the message 227 00:16:06,840 --> 00:16:10,320 Speaker 1: is being heard loud and clear and that people are 228 00:16:10,440 --> 00:16:15,680 Speaker 1: voting with their remote controls. I will say, in general terms, 229 00:16:15,720 --> 00:16:21,440 Speaker 1: in society, we don't realize or recognize or utilize the 230 00:16:21,560 --> 00:16:26,920 Speaker 1: voice we have as consumers in this world, especially where 231 00:16:26,960 --> 00:16:29,840 Speaker 1: we are. And I mean I'm not going to speak 232 00:16:29,880 --> 00:16:34,320 Speaker 1: about my own situation because I can't, but I will 233 00:16:34,400 --> 00:16:39,920 Speaker 1: say these things over time make a difference. Well, people, 234 00:16:39,960 --> 00:16:42,960 Speaker 1: I don't think realize how much power they have. You know, 235 00:16:43,800 --> 00:16:49,400 Speaker 1: when certain people boycott certain networks, they pay attention, and 236 00:16:49,520 --> 00:16:54,640 Speaker 1: if they galvanize consumers to boycott a network, that can 237 00:16:54,680 --> 00:16:59,160 Speaker 1: have a real impact. I am no conintended that I'm 238 00:16:59,200 --> 00:17:03,640 Speaker 1: always looking for silver linings. I always was and I 239 00:17:03,840 --> 00:17:07,399 Speaker 1: still am. So I think that that is an important 240 00:17:07,800 --> 00:17:11,760 Speaker 1: thing for people to address. But in general, the subject 241 00:17:11,800 --> 00:17:16,399 Speaker 1: of agism is something we shouldn't let our guard down. 242 00:17:16,520 --> 00:17:20,920 Speaker 1: I mean, I look so much to you know indigenous 243 00:17:21,000 --> 00:17:25,880 Speaker 1: cultures where it's the elders, the knowledge keepers we look 244 00:17:25,960 --> 00:17:30,639 Speaker 1: to as our guides, and in other cultures it's women 245 00:17:30,680 --> 00:17:33,800 Speaker 1: at a certain age become Was it Germaine Greer who 246 00:17:34,040 --> 00:17:38,200 Speaker 1: called us crones at a certain age? That's something we 247 00:17:39,000 --> 00:17:42,800 Speaker 1: can keep working to change. And as I said before, 248 00:17:42,840 --> 00:17:46,720 Speaker 1: you you just keep calling something out. This is not 249 00:17:46,840 --> 00:17:51,960 Speaker 1: about my situation. As I said, this is about women 250 00:17:52,160 --> 00:17:55,040 Speaker 1: in general, and it's not something that just mattered to 251 00:17:55,080 --> 00:18:01,840 Speaker 1: me recently. This is an issue of sexism and ageism. 252 00:18:02,960 --> 00:18:06,320 Speaker 1: Anything ending in an ism, to be honest, has been 253 00:18:06,480 --> 00:18:11,960 Speaker 1: something that has been worth focusing on analyzing and determining 254 00:18:12,240 --> 00:18:15,399 Speaker 1: the veracity of it. If I can put that, I agree, 255 00:18:15,400 --> 00:18:19,160 Speaker 1: except for feminism, that's a good ism, that's a greatism. 256 00:18:19,640 --> 00:18:23,639 Speaker 1: Speaking of Germania, let's talk about sexism. Though. You know, 257 00:18:23,720 --> 00:18:26,840 Speaker 1: I think you and I got into the news business 258 00:18:26,880 --> 00:18:30,080 Speaker 1: around the same time. I'm a little older than you are, 259 00:18:30,359 --> 00:18:36,320 Speaker 1: But do you feel that it's changed dramatically Because I 260 00:18:36,440 --> 00:18:39,560 Speaker 1: joke in speeches that I got into TV news when 261 00:18:39,600 --> 00:18:44,119 Speaker 1: harass was two words instead of one, and when people 262 00:18:44,760 --> 00:18:48,000 Speaker 1: said that I lacked ravatas when I did the CBS 263 00:18:48,080 --> 00:18:51,440 Speaker 1: Evening News, I said, I later discovered that is actually 264 00:18:51,520 --> 00:18:55,680 Speaker 1: Latin for testicles, So I guess, I guess I'm wondering 265 00:18:56,160 --> 00:19:00,480 Speaker 1: do you think that it's changed. I mean, they're certainly many, 266 00:19:00,600 --> 00:19:06,320 Speaker 1: many more high profile women in television news, both on 267 00:19:06,480 --> 00:19:10,600 Speaker 1: camera and behind the scenes and executive positions then there 268 00:19:10,640 --> 00:19:14,439 Speaker 1: were when I started out by far, So do you 269 00:19:14,480 --> 00:19:17,520 Speaker 1: think strides have been made? And what kind of bullshit 270 00:19:17,600 --> 00:19:19,719 Speaker 1: did you have to deal with Lisa early on in 271 00:19:19,720 --> 00:19:24,720 Speaker 1: your career. I'm just curious, Probably the same bullshit you 272 00:19:24,840 --> 00:19:29,000 Speaker 1: had to deal with, because, first of all, top answer, absolutely, 273 00:19:29,040 --> 00:19:31,959 Speaker 1: we've made strides. I mean, I remember begging to go 274 00:19:32,000 --> 00:19:36,400 Speaker 1: to Baghdad twenty three years ago whatever it was. Now 275 00:19:36,560 --> 00:19:38,920 Speaker 1: women are assigned if there women and men in an 276 00:19:38,920 --> 00:19:44,679 Speaker 1: assignment desk doesn't decide based on gender, so that's huge. 277 00:19:45,560 --> 00:19:48,960 Speaker 1: You grow a thix skin early on as a woman 278 00:19:49,119 --> 00:19:52,640 Speaker 1: in this industry, so you have to learn to wear 279 00:19:52,760 --> 00:19:56,400 Speaker 1: that six skin. Our first obligation is always to the 280 00:19:56,440 --> 00:20:00,320 Speaker 1: truth and never to those people trying to tear us down. 281 00:20:00,680 --> 00:20:07,760 Speaker 1: But you know, it's been a journey of beautiful progress 282 00:20:07,800 --> 00:20:12,480 Speaker 1: for women. But growing up and certainly as a young reporter, no, 283 00:20:12,920 --> 00:20:18,040 Speaker 1: Barbara Walters really was the one Diane Sawyer sixteen minutes. 284 00:20:18,119 --> 00:20:22,560 Speaker 1: I remember visibly watching, thinking, okay, but I'm serious, there 285 00:20:22,640 --> 00:20:25,560 Speaker 1: was there were a very few. I feel like progress 286 00:20:25,600 --> 00:20:29,200 Speaker 1: has been made. And then I hear someone like Don 287 00:20:29,280 --> 00:20:34,119 Speaker 1: Lemon making a bonehead remark on CNN about women in 288 00:20:34,200 --> 00:20:37,280 Speaker 1: their prime. Let's listen to what Don had to say. 289 00:20:37,600 --> 00:20:40,480 Speaker 1: This all talk about age makes me uncomfortable. I think 290 00:20:40,520 --> 00:20:42,680 Speaker 1: that I think it's the wrong road to go down. 291 00:20:42,840 --> 00:20:45,240 Speaker 1: She says, people, you know, politicians are something and not 292 00:20:45,320 --> 00:20:47,640 Speaker 1: in their prime. Nicki Haley isn't in her prime. Sorry, 293 00:20:47,800 --> 00:20:49,959 Speaker 1: when a woman is considered being her prime in our twenties, 294 00:20:49,960 --> 00:20:53,959 Speaker 1: at thirties and maybe forties, that's not, according to me, 295 00:20:54,080 --> 00:20:57,080 Speaker 1: prime for what it depends me. It's just like prime. 296 00:20:57,119 --> 00:20:58,679 Speaker 1: If you look it up, it'll if you look if 297 00:20:58,680 --> 00:21:01,600 Speaker 1: you google when is a woman in prime, it'll say twenties, 298 00:21:01,760 --> 00:21:06,000 Speaker 1: thirties and forties. I say, I agree with that. So 299 00:21:06,080 --> 00:21:08,760 Speaker 1: I think she has to be careful about saying that, 300 00:21:08,960 --> 00:21:11,080 Speaker 1: you know, politicians aren't in their problem. You could qualifier 301 00:21:11,119 --> 00:21:15,080 Speaker 1: you're talking about prime for like child or Lisa. I 302 00:21:15,200 --> 00:21:20,040 Speaker 1: know Don Lemon and eighty five years old. No, he's 303 00:21:20,280 --> 00:21:23,000 Speaker 1: he's actually a nice guy. I think maybe he was 304 00:21:23,040 --> 00:21:27,720 Speaker 1: trying to be provocative, or maybe he was reacting to 305 00:21:27,920 --> 00:21:33,120 Speaker 1: agism by Nicki Haley with sexism. Again, those isms probably 306 00:21:33,160 --> 00:21:35,920 Speaker 1: not a good idea at all. But what was your 307 00:21:35,960 --> 00:21:40,520 Speaker 1: reaction when you when you heard what he had said? Well, again, 308 00:21:40,600 --> 00:21:43,040 Speaker 1: it's all through the chrism of the moment. And I 309 00:21:43,160 --> 00:21:48,280 Speaker 1: was in Africa when that happened, and I had just 310 00:21:48,480 --> 00:21:53,679 Speaker 1: been talking to a female politician, the first Arab woman 311 00:21:53,920 --> 00:21:58,040 Speaker 1: ever to become the mayor of a major Arab city. 312 00:21:58,400 --> 00:22:03,479 Speaker 1: And I do the interview, I go back and I'm checking, Oh, 313 00:22:03,520 --> 00:22:07,760 Speaker 1: why is Don Lemon trending? I'm not joking. I was 314 00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:11,639 Speaker 1: gobsmacked at the idiocy of that comment. I replayed it. 315 00:22:11,920 --> 00:22:17,600 Speaker 1: Did I just hear that? There was a sanctimonious quality 316 00:22:17,680 --> 00:22:21,280 Speaker 1: to the google it part that I just with stunned at. 317 00:22:21,920 --> 00:22:27,320 Speaker 1: And I'm exhausted by the sort of the heads against 318 00:22:27,320 --> 00:22:31,440 Speaker 1: the brick wall nature of a comment like that. Obviously, 319 00:22:32,200 --> 00:22:34,840 Speaker 1: he wouldn't have said it if he didn't feel there 320 00:22:35,040 --> 00:22:38,920 Speaker 1: was some kind of acceptability in society to make a 321 00:22:38,920 --> 00:22:43,399 Speaker 1: comment like that, And that is a sad statement. I 322 00:22:43,440 --> 00:22:46,600 Speaker 1: don't know the man, I do not know him, but 323 00:22:46,720 --> 00:22:51,679 Speaker 1: I know that that comment gave me enormous insight into 324 00:22:51,800 --> 00:22:55,280 Speaker 1: how his mind works, and I wish his mind would 325 00:22:55,280 --> 00:22:58,360 Speaker 1: catch up with the calendar because it's you know, it's 326 00:22:58,400 --> 00:23:01,760 Speaker 1: twenty twenty three, and that is not acceptable to me. 327 00:23:02,480 --> 00:23:06,800 Speaker 1: How do we take him seriously when he interviews the 328 00:23:06,800 --> 00:23:11,119 Speaker 1: next female politician or any woman's issue, really if you 329 00:23:11,359 --> 00:23:16,040 Speaker 1: think the woman you're interviewing is over thirty or maybe forty. 330 00:23:16,720 --> 00:23:20,040 Speaker 1: And as a husband, I don't know. I think he 331 00:23:20,119 --> 00:23:24,040 Speaker 1: was trying to be cute and made a terrible mistake. 332 00:23:24,480 --> 00:23:28,240 Speaker 1: And I'm not sure he really believes that. I think 333 00:23:28,280 --> 00:23:32,240 Speaker 1: he was trying to be edgy or something. And is 334 00:23:32,480 --> 00:23:35,200 Speaker 1: okay though when you have a position, as we both know, 335 00:23:35,800 --> 00:23:38,480 Speaker 1: is a position of privilege. Oh, I don't think it's 336 00:23:38,480 --> 00:23:42,520 Speaker 1: okay at all. I'm just trying to understand his motivation 337 00:23:42,600 --> 00:23:46,359 Speaker 1: and what might have prompted him to make such a 338 00:23:46,359 --> 00:23:51,200 Speaker 1: bonehead comment. Yeah, that's a good word for it. Up next, 339 00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:55,280 Speaker 1: Lisa on the state of journalism in our polarized world. 340 00:23:55,760 --> 00:24:07,480 Speaker 1: That's right after this. I'm curious to get your thoughts 341 00:24:07,560 --> 00:24:11,760 Speaker 1: on sort of the modern media landscape. You know, linear 342 00:24:11,840 --> 00:24:18,399 Speaker 1: television is declining every day, and as the demand declines, 343 00:24:19,080 --> 00:24:23,280 Speaker 1: salaries are going down. As well, and I'm just curious 344 00:24:23,320 --> 00:24:29,960 Speaker 1: how you feel about misinformation, disinformation, truth decay, as it's 345 00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:35,280 Speaker 1: sometimes been called, living in a post factual world. It's 346 00:24:35,320 --> 00:24:39,800 Speaker 1: just so dramatically different than it was when we started out. 347 00:24:40,520 --> 00:24:44,119 Speaker 1: I don't know what are your thoughts on all of 348 00:24:44,200 --> 00:24:48,440 Speaker 1: this change. I mean, I always think they've never been 349 00:24:48,480 --> 00:24:53,400 Speaker 1: more informed and less enlightened. It's a difficult time because 350 00:24:53,440 --> 00:25:00,720 Speaker 1: of misinformation. And I don't understand why people see their 351 00:25:00,800 --> 00:25:05,720 Speaker 1: power of critical thinking. I mean traditional media where people 352 00:25:05,720 --> 00:25:09,360 Speaker 1: are getting paid to work hard to learn a craft. 353 00:25:09,480 --> 00:25:11,879 Speaker 1: It's like, would you go to Twitter if you had 354 00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:15,199 Speaker 1: colon cancer and get advice? You know, if you had 355 00:25:15,240 --> 00:25:18,280 Speaker 1: a lump in your breast, would you go to Instagram? No, 356 00:25:19,160 --> 00:25:21,640 Speaker 1: you go to a doctor. So if you want a 357 00:25:21,720 --> 00:25:26,200 Speaker 1: fact on what's going on in Ukraine or Afghanistan at 358 00:25:26,240 --> 00:25:29,560 Speaker 1: this moment, why wouldn't you go to people who are 359 00:25:29,920 --> 00:25:34,239 Speaker 1: professional journalists? Because learned that this is a craft that 360 00:25:34,280 --> 00:25:39,320 Speaker 1: we've honed and that's our only job is to gather facts. 361 00:25:39,359 --> 00:25:43,160 Speaker 1: And so I'm worried because I feel like we need 362 00:25:43,359 --> 00:25:47,040 Speaker 1: some kind of correction in the world right now to 363 00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:51,960 Speaker 1: expose the misinformation. It's not that difficult to check your sources. 364 00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:55,879 Speaker 1: I mean, I've always believe media literacy is as important 365 00:25:55,880 --> 00:25:59,920 Speaker 1: as math, maybe more important than math. Right now, since 366 00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:02,840 Speaker 1: we have a phone we can quickly calculate, we don't 367 00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:07,080 Speaker 1: really use our brain the way we had to, and 368 00:26:07,280 --> 00:26:11,480 Speaker 1: that worries me. I mean Finland, for example, it is 369 00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:14,879 Speaker 1: now in kindergarten part of the curriculum to teach the 370 00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:21,359 Speaker 1: difference between real news, fake news, misinformation, disinformation. This should 371 00:26:21,440 --> 00:26:24,919 Speaker 1: be everywhere, and I think during the pandemic one of 372 00:26:24,920 --> 00:26:29,119 Speaker 1: the biggest legacies was misinformation, and there were nights I 373 00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:33,560 Speaker 1: used to feel like we're spending half the time correcting 374 00:26:34,280 --> 00:26:39,199 Speaker 1: false information, and sometimes that came from the highest levels 375 00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:45,560 Speaker 1: of power, and that is very disconcerting. So there's a 376 00:26:45,560 --> 00:26:48,200 Speaker 1: lot of work to do here, and we can't any 377 00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:51,080 Speaker 1: of us stop. Do you think the genie is out 378 00:26:51,080 --> 00:26:54,879 Speaker 1: of the bottle, that media literacy is our best hope, 379 00:26:54,960 --> 00:27:00,159 Speaker 1: because it seems to me that correcting disinformation, that it's 380 00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:05,239 Speaker 1: too pervasive, it's become too ubiquitous to to kind of 381 00:27:05,359 --> 00:27:10,159 Speaker 1: corral it. At this point, I don't know, can't you 382 00:27:10,800 --> 00:27:15,359 Speaker 1: can't can't I mean, honestly, we can't accept that. We 383 00:27:15,520 --> 00:27:21,760 Speaker 1: have to keep fighting to expose misinformation, and I don't know. 384 00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:25,240 Speaker 1: We are seeing it. We're seeing it crumble in certain places, 385 00:27:25,240 --> 00:27:29,080 Speaker 1: and then it pops like WACA mole, you know, and 386 00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:33,320 Speaker 1: that is frustrating. But I don't feel it's something we 387 00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:37,040 Speaker 1: can ever. I mean, we're seeing trust being eroded, you know, 388 00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:41,480 Speaker 1: all of the institutions of society, right, Yes, I agree, 389 00:27:41,600 --> 00:27:46,880 Speaker 1: And I'm curious how you feel about this move towards 390 00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:51,280 Speaker 1: more commentary on cable news. You know, for so long 391 00:27:52,240 --> 00:27:55,679 Speaker 1: I've just been trained or I was trained as a journalist. 392 00:27:55,920 --> 00:27:59,280 Speaker 1: And now I'm more outspoken because I have my own 393 00:27:59,280 --> 00:28:02,160 Speaker 1: company and I can speak out about things that I 394 00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:07,360 Speaker 1: am passionate about about gun violence or helping people understand 395 00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:11,880 Speaker 1: sort of our changing notions of gender identity. But I 396 00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:16,520 Speaker 1: never gave my opinion on anything, and now it is 397 00:28:16,960 --> 00:28:21,399 Speaker 1: totally so different, particularly in cable news and prime time, 398 00:28:22,119 --> 00:28:26,960 Speaker 1: And I'm wondering how you feel about that. I feel 399 00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:30,680 Speaker 1: it's one of the reasons for the erosion. Actually, if 400 00:28:30,760 --> 00:28:34,159 Speaker 1: people want to know what's happening in the world, you 401 00:28:34,280 --> 00:28:39,880 Speaker 1: need on the ground field reporters who can cover it 402 00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:44,640 Speaker 1: through their eyes, trusted eyes show it's what's happening. Don't 403 00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:48,960 Speaker 1: give me your opinion. I do love I've got to 404 00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:53,080 Speaker 1: be honest. I'm a complete newspaper junkie for columns well 405 00:28:53,200 --> 00:28:57,320 Speaker 1: thought out, I just write. I love reading that. I 406 00:28:57,320 --> 00:29:00,280 Speaker 1: don't know, I feel that is part of them, and 407 00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:01,920 Speaker 1: I don't know if it's a money thing. I have 408 00:29:01,960 --> 00:29:06,080 Speaker 1: no idea why it seems like that's taken over. I 409 00:29:06,080 --> 00:29:09,320 Speaker 1: think it's because a shrinking audience, you have to get 410 00:29:09,360 --> 00:29:13,320 Speaker 1: a certain piece of the pie. So instead of giving 411 00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:17,760 Speaker 1: information which I think people don't necessarily have a visceral 412 00:29:17,960 --> 00:29:21,320 Speaker 1: response to, right, And it takes intellectual work to be 413 00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:26,880 Speaker 1: a critical thinker that to get sort of like minded 414 00:29:26,960 --> 00:29:31,840 Speaker 1: audience who wants to hear kind of a reinforcement or 415 00:29:31,960 --> 00:29:37,560 Speaker 1: validation of their own pre existing views that they gravitate 416 00:29:37,640 --> 00:29:41,720 Speaker 1: towards people who reflect those views. But in the end, 417 00:29:41,760 --> 00:29:44,160 Speaker 1: what have you learned? Actually, Like, if you look at 418 00:29:44,200 --> 00:29:48,800 Speaker 1: the situation on the ground in Ukraine right now, I mean, 419 00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:52,880 Speaker 1: you can hear all of the chats we'll call it chat, 420 00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:58,800 Speaker 1: it is only the very rare which is still still there. 421 00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:02,480 Speaker 1: It's still there. You know, generals who've experienced war in 422 00:30:03,400 --> 00:30:07,200 Speaker 1: any Afghanistan or Iraq, who can look at the actual 423 00:30:07,320 --> 00:30:10,880 Speaker 1: battle front and give you some knowledge that might give 424 00:30:10,920 --> 00:30:13,720 Speaker 1: you an insight into where it's going next. But the 425 00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:18,760 Speaker 1: general I don't know. With general chat, if we're actually 426 00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:23,000 Speaker 1: informing the public, and I agree with you, I am 427 00:30:23,040 --> 00:30:26,720 Speaker 1: trained also to just give the facts. And that's a 428 00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:29,360 Speaker 1: comfortable place to be because I know what to do 429 00:30:29,840 --> 00:30:35,600 Speaker 1: with facts. I'm seeing something, I'm asking questions, I'm getting answers, 430 00:30:36,040 --> 00:30:39,240 Speaker 1: and that is the fact for that moment in that place, 431 00:30:39,720 --> 00:30:43,280 Speaker 1: and we reflect it back. Otherwise, I don't know. I'm 432 00:30:43,280 --> 00:30:47,560 Speaker 1: not equipped. I couldn't possibly give people an opinion that 433 00:30:47,720 --> 00:30:51,560 Speaker 1: would be worth it for a conflict of that nature 434 00:30:51,760 --> 00:30:56,520 Speaker 1: or any of these things. I don't understand actually why 435 00:30:56,760 --> 00:31:01,800 Speaker 1: it's shifted so dramatically onto the chat format and away 436 00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:04,400 Speaker 1: from news. That's why I ask could it be money 437 00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:08,040 Speaker 1: in the sense that fewer resources in the industry at large, 438 00:31:08,200 --> 00:31:12,200 Speaker 1: I mean fewer field reporters. That's definitely part of it. 439 00:31:12,240 --> 00:31:17,000 Speaker 1: I mean producing an in studio show with people giving 440 00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:21,960 Speaker 1: their opinions is a lot less expensive than having foreign 441 00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:26,120 Speaker 1: bureaus and having reporters on the ground. And you know, 442 00:31:26,200 --> 00:31:29,320 Speaker 1: I think they're still obviously places that do that and 443 00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:33,240 Speaker 1: do it well. And I also think having Donald Trump 444 00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:38,720 Speaker 1: as president presented certain challenges to news organizations in terms 445 00:31:38,760 --> 00:31:45,800 Speaker 1: of how they handled misinformation that he was perpetuating, that 446 00:31:46,360 --> 00:31:49,320 Speaker 1: the president of the United States was perpetuating and if 447 00:31:49,320 --> 00:31:53,760 Speaker 1: they corrected him, they would be considered biased or criticized him, 448 00:31:53,920 --> 00:31:58,640 Speaker 1: or it made it even more complex and even murkier. 449 00:31:59,160 --> 00:32:02,520 Speaker 1: And I'm sort of along those lines to get your 450 00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:09,200 Speaker 1: opinion on Fox News because in the dominion lawsuit, it's 451 00:32:09,360 --> 00:32:12,280 Speaker 1: come to its surface. And I'm sure you've been reading 452 00:32:12,320 --> 00:32:19,160 Speaker 1: about this, Lisa, that their primetime anchors knew that there 453 00:32:19,160 --> 00:32:24,520 Speaker 1: were falsehoods being perpetrated by people about a stolen election, 454 00:32:25,360 --> 00:32:28,720 Speaker 1: but they also knew their audience and they were afraid 455 00:32:28,760 --> 00:32:35,080 Speaker 1: they were gravitating to more more conservative upstart networks like Newsmax, 456 00:32:35,640 --> 00:32:39,320 Speaker 1: and so they intentionally lied to their audience and they 457 00:32:39,360 --> 00:32:43,360 Speaker 1: told them what they wanted to hear. And to me, 458 00:32:43,840 --> 00:32:49,480 Speaker 1: that is such a betrayal and so Craven and as 459 00:32:49,560 --> 00:32:54,840 Speaker 1: Rupert Murdoch himself said, it was a business decision. Now 460 00:32:54,880 --> 00:33:00,240 Speaker 1: the question is do Fox News viewers even care that 461 00:33:00,320 --> 00:33:03,880 Speaker 1: they were lied to? But that's a question, and also 462 00:33:04,320 --> 00:33:11,600 Speaker 1: accountability democracy is something we should protect and not allow. 463 00:33:11,720 --> 00:33:13,800 Speaker 1: I think I don't know what the viewership is at 464 00:33:13,800 --> 00:33:19,160 Speaker 1: the moment for Fox, I assume it's gone down since Trump. Yeah, 465 00:33:19,200 --> 00:33:23,200 Speaker 1: but they're still the highest rated cable in the United States. 466 00:33:23,680 --> 00:33:27,200 Speaker 1: So I wasn't shocked by any of that. I guess 467 00:33:27,320 --> 00:33:32,920 Speaker 1: I was surprised that he under oath admitted they knew 468 00:33:32,920 --> 00:33:37,680 Speaker 1: it was a lie. It's all about the principles of journalism, 469 00:33:37,680 --> 00:33:41,400 Speaker 1: and I guess maybe therein lies the difference. At one point, 470 00:33:41,440 --> 00:33:44,800 Speaker 1: you've got to declare yourself you're either a journalist or 471 00:33:44,840 --> 00:33:48,120 Speaker 1: you're not, and we all do have to follow some 472 00:33:48,240 --> 00:33:51,480 Speaker 1: kind of code of ethics or else it just becomes 473 00:33:51,800 --> 00:33:57,080 Speaker 1: a circus. And that has been a dangerous circus what's 474 00:33:57,200 --> 00:34:03,960 Speaker 1: unfolded and perpetuating lie in America. And this has all 475 00:34:04,040 --> 00:34:08,920 Speaker 1: been a learning experience, I think for everybody since twenty sixteen, 476 00:34:09,640 --> 00:34:13,080 Speaker 1: and the world. It's not just an American situation. It 477 00:34:13,239 --> 00:34:18,120 Speaker 1: is a world question now, and that makes it really 478 00:34:18,160 --> 00:34:20,560 Speaker 1: important that we don't take our eye off the ball 479 00:34:20,600 --> 00:34:24,120 Speaker 1: and see what are the consequences of this admittance on 480 00:34:24,400 --> 00:34:29,520 Speaker 1: the stand that, yes, our on air people, I'm not 481 00:34:29,560 --> 00:34:33,120 Speaker 1: going to call them journalists if they've been lying, openly, 482 00:34:33,239 --> 00:34:38,839 Speaker 1: knowingly lying, that's not journalism. One oh one. Let's face it, 483 00:34:38,480 --> 00:34:42,600 Speaker 1: it's wrong. And I don't know what the outcome of 484 00:34:42,640 --> 00:34:45,160 Speaker 1: this is going to be. Do you have a clue 485 00:34:45,280 --> 00:34:48,439 Speaker 1: of where it might go. I don't because I think 486 00:34:48,480 --> 00:34:52,439 Speaker 1: a lot of Fox News viewers aren't convinced that this 487 00:34:52,560 --> 00:34:55,719 Speaker 1: was the case, despite all evidence to the contrary, that 488 00:34:55,800 --> 00:35:00,520 Speaker 1: the election was somehow stolen, and that's something that Donald 489 00:35:00,520 --> 00:35:06,640 Speaker 1: Trump continues to say. And I think because it's not 490 00:35:06,760 --> 00:35:11,479 Speaker 1: being covered where they're getting their news, I'm not sure 491 00:35:11,520 --> 00:35:16,319 Speaker 1: it will have an impact on their viewership. Yeah, that's 492 00:35:16,360 --> 00:35:19,400 Speaker 1: the dangerous element to all of it. You hear what 493 00:35:19,480 --> 00:35:22,640 Speaker 1: you want to hear, selective hearing. And I don't know 494 00:35:22,680 --> 00:35:25,719 Speaker 1: what the way around that is, except we are in 495 00:35:25,760 --> 00:35:31,560 Speaker 1: a polarized world right now. It has probably been never 496 00:35:31,600 --> 00:35:36,840 Speaker 1: this bad in history the last six years, growing though, 497 00:35:37,320 --> 00:35:40,560 Speaker 1: and I do as I said, I feel there is 498 00:35:40,600 --> 00:35:44,279 Speaker 1: going to be a correction because it can't stand. This 499 00:35:44,560 --> 00:35:49,399 Speaker 1: can't continue this way misinformation, which is the greatest threat 500 00:35:49,480 --> 00:35:53,640 Speaker 1: to democracy. People just don't even realize what they're letting 501 00:35:53,719 --> 00:35:56,600 Speaker 1: slip through their fingers. And I will again point to 502 00:35:56,760 --> 00:36:00,920 Speaker 1: having just been in countries where it's just a word 503 00:36:01,480 --> 00:36:05,759 Speaker 1: free press and a media freedom and democracy. These are 504 00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:10,560 Speaker 1: just words and we take it for granted, and that 505 00:36:10,760 --> 00:36:15,320 Speaker 1: is very disheartening for me to see on a global scale. 506 00:36:15,360 --> 00:36:17,440 Speaker 1: It really is. We don't know how lucky we have it. 507 00:36:17,800 --> 00:36:22,600 Speaker 1: Are Canadians as polarized as Americans? I would say we are, 508 00:36:22,920 --> 00:36:26,080 Speaker 1: We're growing. We are very polarized in this country and 509 00:36:26,200 --> 00:36:28,680 Speaker 1: the world is. It's the same in the UK, it's 510 00:36:28,680 --> 00:36:33,200 Speaker 1: the same in France. There's probably not a Western country 511 00:36:33,280 --> 00:36:37,840 Speaker 1: right now that is not as polarized. And I sadly 512 00:36:38,080 --> 00:36:42,359 Speaker 1: will say the reason that the central theme of it 513 00:36:42,440 --> 00:36:46,319 Speaker 1: is people coming on one side or the other of immigration, 514 00:36:46,760 --> 00:36:50,040 Speaker 1: and that is the part that really personally hurts me. 515 00:36:50,160 --> 00:36:54,000 Speaker 1: Having covered so many of these conflicts around the world, 516 00:36:54,000 --> 00:36:57,840 Speaker 1: and I'm going to speak specifically to what's happening in Afghanistan. 517 00:36:57,880 --> 00:37:02,239 Speaker 1: And you know, nobody wants to leave their culture, their language, 518 00:37:02,280 --> 00:37:05,560 Speaker 1: their friends, their relatives willingly and go to a country 519 00:37:05,560 --> 00:37:08,239 Speaker 1: where they don't know anything. It's because it's a life 520 00:37:08,360 --> 00:37:12,839 Speaker 1: or death situation. And I think, sadly that is one 521 00:37:12,840 --> 00:37:17,200 Speaker 1: of the reasons that has generated this division in the world. 522 00:37:17,800 --> 00:37:21,080 Speaker 1: What do we do with victims of conflict? I mean, 523 00:37:21,160 --> 00:37:25,200 Speaker 1: certainly Afghanistan is I'm going to use the term gender apartheid. 524 00:37:25,760 --> 00:37:28,760 Speaker 1: What's happening that, you know, little girls can no longer 525 00:37:28,800 --> 00:37:31,520 Speaker 1: go to school and women who for twenty years have 526 00:37:31,760 --> 00:37:37,600 Speaker 1: been going to university and working and now they're hiding. 527 00:37:37,640 --> 00:37:41,480 Speaker 1: The women I know personally are hiding in their basements. 528 00:37:41,840 --> 00:37:45,040 Speaker 1: They're putting their kids, their little girls, through secret schools. 529 00:37:46,280 --> 00:37:50,279 Speaker 1: This is not okay. This it's not okay. And I 530 00:37:50,280 --> 00:37:52,360 Speaker 1: don't know, I'm going on a bit of a tangent there, 531 00:37:52,360 --> 00:37:54,799 Speaker 1: but it is something I think does not get enough 532 00:37:54,800 --> 00:37:58,920 Speaker 1: coverage now. And I understand why, being in the industry, 533 00:37:59,320 --> 00:38:02,440 Speaker 1: we know we only have a capacity for so much 534 00:38:02,920 --> 00:38:08,080 Speaker 1: conflict and then people sort of turn away. But this 535 00:38:08,200 --> 00:38:10,839 Speaker 1: is when I think we need to refocus on I 536 00:38:10,880 --> 00:38:14,080 Speaker 1: really do. And again it does come down to the 537 00:38:14,120 --> 00:38:20,960 Speaker 1: politics of crisis and how we weaponize it. Sadly, I agree, 538 00:38:21,440 --> 00:38:26,680 Speaker 1: I agree. I mean, yes, I think modern politicians are 539 00:38:26,760 --> 00:38:30,720 Speaker 1: more interested in using issues against each other than actually 540 00:38:30,760 --> 00:38:34,439 Speaker 1: fixing anything. And that's so sad because that is such 541 00:38:34,480 --> 00:38:39,960 Speaker 1: a position of privilege. Really, you're an elected official, You're 542 00:38:40,040 --> 00:38:43,640 Speaker 1: put in a position to work for the public. I 543 00:38:43,680 --> 00:38:47,280 Speaker 1: don't know, I can't. I have trouble. I have trouble 544 00:38:47,360 --> 00:38:49,160 Speaker 1: with a lot of these things, but not like you. 545 00:38:49,400 --> 00:38:53,680 Speaker 1: I mean I also wasn't speaking out about things like that. 546 00:38:53,840 --> 00:38:57,239 Speaker 1: Now I can speak freely about what I see what 547 00:38:57,360 --> 00:39:00,960 Speaker 1: I see specifically, as I said, I know there are 548 00:39:01,000 --> 00:39:04,680 Speaker 1: issues with indigenous women in this country and your country, 549 00:39:04,719 --> 00:39:09,359 Speaker 1: and immigrant women, but I really do think there's more 550 00:39:09,440 --> 00:39:13,520 Speaker 1: we can do as a society. Is it liberating in 551 00:39:13,560 --> 00:39:17,160 Speaker 1: some ways to be able to address some of these 552 00:39:17,200 --> 00:39:21,920 Speaker 1: issues that you couldn't address when you were anchoring an 553 00:39:21,960 --> 00:39:26,560 Speaker 1: evening newscast? Absolutely it is. I mean there's there's things 554 00:39:26,560 --> 00:39:30,080 Speaker 1: that you could say to your team around the pod, 555 00:39:30,280 --> 00:39:33,399 Speaker 1: but you wouldn't say on air if you felt that 556 00:39:34,120 --> 00:39:39,520 Speaker 1: any particular government wasn't doing enough, wasn't fulfilling an obligation 557 00:39:39,920 --> 00:39:46,280 Speaker 1: that they'd made to whomever domestically or internationally. And yeah, 558 00:39:46,320 --> 00:39:49,520 Speaker 1: now I can. I mean I'm not I'm not really 559 00:39:49,520 --> 00:39:53,239 Speaker 1: that person to be honest politically, but but I can know, 560 00:39:53,440 --> 00:39:57,000 Speaker 1: and in an opportunity, if I'm asked, I don't have 561 00:39:57,040 --> 00:40:01,080 Speaker 1: to shy away from it. And there's definitely liberty. It's 562 00:40:01,080 --> 00:40:05,240 Speaker 1: about what we do with our voices that can help 563 00:40:05,320 --> 00:40:10,319 Speaker 1: empower younger women. I think, Lisa, do you think you 564 00:40:10,400 --> 00:40:15,520 Speaker 1: have a book in you. I don't know. I marveled 565 00:40:15,640 --> 00:40:19,080 Speaker 1: at your book that you remembered so much. I feel 566 00:40:19,160 --> 00:40:21,160 Speaker 1: sometimes if I ever wanted to sit down and write 567 00:40:21,200 --> 00:40:22,759 Speaker 1: the book, how would I? And I do? I have 568 00:40:22,880 --> 00:40:26,279 Speaker 1: box loads of handwritten note books and all of that, 569 00:40:26,560 --> 00:40:30,120 Speaker 1: and it seems like a mammoth operation to even open 570 00:40:30,160 --> 00:40:33,080 Speaker 1: them and look through it. But maybe one day I'll 571 00:40:33,120 --> 00:40:37,560 Speaker 1: know when the time is right. Well, listen, Lisa, thank 572 00:40:37,600 --> 00:40:40,040 Speaker 1: you so much for spending all this time. It's been 573 00:40:40,080 --> 00:40:43,040 Speaker 1: a real pleasure. I feel like we're old friends now 574 00:40:43,080 --> 00:40:47,200 Speaker 1: that we sat down over a long, potentially boozy lunch. 575 00:40:48,040 --> 00:40:55,600 Speaker 1: We need that hopefully, Yeah, next time, next time with cocktails. Anyway, 576 00:40:55,680 --> 00:40:58,600 Speaker 1: good luck to you, and thanks again for coming on 577 00:40:58,640 --> 00:41:02,719 Speaker 1: the podcast. I'm I'm really grateful. It was really great 578 00:41:02,760 --> 00:41:05,680 Speaker 1: to talk to you. Katie, and I just so appreciate 579 00:41:05,960 --> 00:41:08,520 Speaker 1: the opportunity to sort of share some of the things 580 00:41:08,520 --> 00:41:13,440 Speaker 1: we've both experienced and the passion I think we both 581 00:41:13,520 --> 00:41:19,280 Speaker 1: share for the industry that we don't want to see destroyed. 582 00:41:19,640 --> 00:41:23,120 Speaker 1: It's a wonderful profession, and I think we both feel 583 00:41:23,239 --> 00:41:27,359 Speaker 1: very fortunate to have had the careers we've we've had, 584 00:41:27,440 --> 00:41:34,200 Speaker 1: and hey, we're not dead yet, well exactly Thank you Lisa, 585 00:41:34,360 --> 00:41:39,720 Speaker 1: Thank you Katie. Great to talk to you. Thanks for listening. Everyone. 586 00:41:40,000 --> 00:41:41,960 Speaker 1: If you have a question for me or want to 587 00:41:41,960 --> 00:41:45,400 Speaker 1: share your thoughts about how you navigate this crazy world 588 00:41:45,719 --> 00:41:48,640 Speaker 1: reach out, You can leave a short message at six 589 00:41:48,719 --> 00:41:52,719 Speaker 1: O nine five point two five five o five, or 590 00:41:52,800 --> 00:41:55,479 Speaker 1: you can send me a DM on Instagram. I would 591 00:41:55,560 --> 00:41:58,720 Speaker 1: love to hear from you. Next Question is a production 592 00:41:58,760 --> 00:42:03,279 Speaker 1: of iHeartMedia and Katie Currek Media. The executive producers are Me, 593 00:42:03,600 --> 00:42:08,400 Speaker 1: Katie Curick, and Courtney Litz. Our supervising producer is Marcy Thompson. 594 00:42:08,760 --> 00:42:12,880 Speaker 1: Our producers are Adriana Fasio and Catherine Law. Our audio 595 00:42:12,920 --> 00:42:16,200 Speaker 1: engineer is Matt Russell, who also composed our theme music. 596 00:42:16,640 --> 00:42:19,799 Speaker 1: For more information about today's episode, or to sign up 597 00:42:19,800 --> 00:42:22,680 Speaker 1: for my newsletter, wake Up Call, go to the description 598 00:42:22,680 --> 00:42:26,440 Speaker 1: in the podcast app, or visit us at Katiecurrek dot com. 599 00:42:26,520 --> 00:42:28,880 Speaker 1: You can also find me on Instagram and all my 600 00:42:29,040 --> 00:42:33,560 Speaker 1: social media channels. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the 601 00:42:33,640 --> 00:42:37,640 Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your 602 00:42:37,680 --> 00:42:38,480 Speaker 1: favorite shows.