Speaker 1: Wine Down with Jane Kramer and I Heart Radio podcast. Okay,
Speaker 1: well I'm back in Nashville, UM, and I have to
Speaker 1: be honest with y'all. I feel like I'm having a
Speaker 1: little mini breakdown. UM. I think it's interesting to go
Speaker 1: from Well, first of all, i've been for the last month.
Speaker 1: I've been in Connecticut filming and it was such an
Speaker 1: amazing experience. UM. It's a Christmas movie. I can't say
Speaker 1: the title yet, but it's coming out UH later this
Speaker 1: year in December for UM one of the Lifetime movies. UM.
Speaker 1: And it was such a fun experience, and I think
Speaker 1: coming back from that world has been a harder transition
Speaker 1: than I thought it was going to be. Like I
Speaker 1: knew amazing. Hillary just popped down, So this is awesome. UM.
Speaker 1: I texted my UH producer and was like, I need
Speaker 1: a therapist and I need a stat like stat So
Speaker 1: thank you Hillary for for for coming on and joining.
Speaker 1: I was just kind of saying like, obviously I talked
Speaker 1: to you when I was in Connecticut, and I knew
Speaker 1: like it was gonna be weird kind of coming home,
Speaker 1: but it today it just hit me like a ton
Speaker 1: of bricks and was like and I don't know if
Speaker 1: it was because I was in a world where it
Speaker 1: was just this bubble of like positive energy and um,
Speaker 1: you know, positive people around me, and I was working
Speaker 1: and I didn't. I wasn't in that reality. Even when
Speaker 1: you know, um, the divorce was finalized, I still had
Speaker 1: to I I cried about it, but then I had
Speaker 1: to go, Okay, I have to walk into work now.
Speaker 1: So now I have to button up really fast and
Speaker 1: go to work and then coming home and obviously I'm
Speaker 1: so happy to be back with the kids. But it's
Speaker 1: just like, oh crap, like this is my reality, not
Speaker 1: the reality of like being in this amazing movie with
Speaker 1: really positive energy. So how do I walk through that?
Speaker 1: Because I feel like I'm like, I mean, I just
Speaker 1: had a total cry fast about thirty minutes ago. Just
Speaker 1: like it's just it's weird. I don't I don't even
Speaker 1: know how to like put it. Does it even make
Speaker 1: sense what I'm saying? Yeah, I mean to me, you're
Speaker 1: talking about this like very painful but very authentic kind
Speaker 1: of coexistence of these two truths I mean, which is
Speaker 1: that you're in the middle of this terrible deep grief
Speaker 1: and mourning, which is going to keep evolving, and evolution
Speaker 1: doesn't just mean it gets better and more positive and easier.
Speaker 1: It also means that you have dark knights of the
Speaker 1: soul where it feels unbearable, and there's certain moments or
Speaker 1: seasons or events or circumstances that will kind of bring
Speaker 1: that to bear. And I just want to offer that, like,
Speaker 1: even though obviously the movie set can't be your literal
Speaker 1: reality and it has some you know, low the aspects
Speaker 1: to it that aren't like, um, you know, scalable on
Speaker 1: a day to day basis, both are true. You know
Speaker 1: that you have this lovely, amazing professional life and these wonderful,
Speaker 1: supportive group of friends, um that lift you up, and
Speaker 1: in their presence you fly, you know, and you you
Speaker 1: get a glimpse of yourself like sort of in this
Speaker 1: other new way. And that's as true as the grief
Speaker 1: that you experienced when you came home, I'm sure and
Speaker 1: felt the emptiness of the house in a profound way
Speaker 1: and the change in your lifestyle in a really deep way.
Speaker 1: And and so I don't know if if we're in
Speaker 1: a position where we can just make the grief get better,
Speaker 1: but at least to widen the perspective around that just
Speaker 1: like both are true deep grief, deep grief and like
Speaker 1: deep precious growth. You know that just both are true. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and I love that and I hear that, and I
Speaker 1: also we're fat being said, how do I like, I'm like,
Speaker 1: will I get to a place where this doesn't affect
Speaker 1: me as much? Because it's like I would love to
Speaker 1: get out of the space. I was reading some comments
Speaker 1: and people were like, I'm so sick of hearing about
Speaker 1: and I'm like, well, I'm sick of feeling it, you know,
Speaker 1: like uh so, And that's where you know, I got
Speaker 1: upset earlier today because I'm just like I don't even
Speaker 1: know what to talk about anymore, because I'm like, I
Speaker 1: obviously want to be authentic and I want to be
Speaker 1: open and I want to share, but I can only
Speaker 1: share certain things because I don't want my kids to
Speaker 1: read certain things. I don't want the press to pick
Speaker 1: up you know, how I really feel about my ex
Speaker 1: or like, you know, it's like there's so many things
Speaker 1: that I don't you know, I'm trying to keep everything kosher,
Speaker 1: but I'm inside I'm like battling all these things that
Speaker 1: have been really hard to battle that it feels like
Speaker 1: I think it's tough because I have have been so
Speaker 1: open and honest about everything, and even when my ex
Speaker 1: and I were talking about infidelity, I didn't feel alone.
Speaker 1: But now I feel probably the most alone I've ever
Speaker 1: felt because I'm actually not being able to authentically share
Speaker 1: everything that's like on my heart. And I think that's
Speaker 1: like it's been the hardest thing because it's like it's
Speaker 1: like two different um spaces where I'm like, I want
Speaker 1: to be so authentic, but then like I can only
Speaker 1: be so authentic without hurting people or having that energy
Speaker 1: out there or causing more chaos with my ax or
Speaker 1: you know. So it's like I don't know like who
Speaker 1: to be or how to be, or what to say
Speaker 1: or like. And it's such a weird reality when the
Speaker 1: last five years of my life I've been so open
Speaker 1: and so honest in those trials and things that most
Speaker 1: people would never talk about. So now I'm supposed to
Speaker 1: like not say anything, and and I don't know like
Speaker 1: how to like walk that path. Help me well that
Speaker 1: pain and grief that comes from what you're having to
Speaker 1: embody in this sort of let me let me stay back.
Speaker 1: I think every marriage that ends in a divorce has
Speaker 1: what I like to call like an after marriage and
Speaker 1: after marriage, right, which is the new season of what
Speaker 1: your relationship is and what all the feelings are around
Speaker 1: this new quote relationship that has its own season, and
Speaker 1: in my experience as a clinician, that season last for
Speaker 1: a year or two, depending on the circumstances, depending on
Speaker 1: if kids are involved, and so to kind of start
Speaker 1: where you started. The idea that you would be in
Speaker 1: a different place than you are now that is being
Speaker 1: proffered by I don't know, fans or people who follow you, etcetera,
Speaker 1: is not the norm. I would not only would I
Speaker 1: not expect to see it. If I did see it,
Speaker 1: I would be concerned that there was suppression of the grief,
Speaker 1: that there was suppression of the trauma. There's an entirely
Speaker 1: new relationship you have to build with your after marriage
Speaker 1: that is just to its infancy stages. And I know
Speaker 1: that's not like amazing, great news, but I think it's
Speaker 1: just a truth and the answer to the question will
Speaker 1: you feel better? Will you not always feel like this? Absolutely?
Speaker 1: Of course and no no doubt, like that's an unequivocal yes.
Speaker 1: From my standpoint and my experience, it's just not not now.
Speaker 1: This is pretty brand new, even though I know it
Speaker 1: feels like you've been doing a bunch of heavy lifting
Speaker 1: for a lot of days now. In kind of terms
Speaker 1: of marriage with children that's ended, and um, your public
Speaker 1: profile and all the hurt that we see and don't see.
Speaker 1: It's it's pretty early on. And I think in terms
Speaker 1: of the actual question like how do I manage that?
Speaker 1: How do I manage that? There's I'm sure in evolving
Speaker 1: acceptance of the truth and what you're dealing with, Like
Speaker 1: you're having to embody this pretty heroic role right where
Speaker 1: you're holding the line, you're holding that boundary I suppose
Speaker 1: on behalf of your kids for the most part, right,
Speaker 1: And I guess that that is in these like dark
Speaker 1: at moments, I think the thing that you have to
Speaker 1: most lean into is like this boundary is for them
Speaker 1: and them only. That's it, and um, that's it and
Speaker 1: that's everything right and and that's like I always call it,
Speaker 1: like heroes work. You know, this is heroes work. That
Speaker 1: that is the motivation, that is the inspiration, And it
Speaker 1: couldn't be harder because of course, in a lot of
Speaker 1: ways it would be better if you could just feel
Speaker 1: more integrated. You know that you weren't having to separate
Speaker 1: out your feelings in different contexts of your life, and
Speaker 1: and so I think that's part of why you're suffering
Speaker 1: so much. It's really really difficult, and having to accept
Speaker 1: at least that current truth is really really hard. You
Speaker 1: feel a bit split and right and not totally authentic
Speaker 1: and not totally supported and seen in all the ways
Speaker 1: that you deserve to be supported and seeing. Because of
Speaker 1: all this, Yeah, like I would love to be able
Speaker 1: to express and share certain things just like I did
Speaker 1: with the past stuff, so that way I don't feels
Speaker 1: alone in certain situations. But yeah, I mean, I I
Speaker 1: think I'm just I don't know who Like I guess
Speaker 1: I had this, UM. I called a friend, yeah, about
Speaker 1: thirty minutes ago and was just like started crying. I
Speaker 1: was like, I don't even know, like who I am?
Speaker 1: Like who am I? Like? What's my story? Like? What
Speaker 1: am I? Like? You know what? Why do I? Like?
Speaker 1: I just I just feel lost. And I think it
Speaker 1: is because I had shared so much previously that now
Speaker 1: I just and yes, I've shared, but like there's still
Speaker 1: so many things that like I've would love to um,
Speaker 1: you know, Um, let out, and I guess it's and
Speaker 1: I've just never done it like privately, like you know,
Speaker 1: I've always just been sharing, like sharing, and like, okay,
Speaker 1: this is like what I'm going through. But now that, yeah,
Speaker 1: I have you know, kids to protect. And then also,
Speaker 1: I mean I think it's I think there's something too
Speaker 1: to be said where I just don't want any more
Speaker 1: conflict with my ax. So I'm like, well, if I
Speaker 1: shut up, then you know he won't be mad at me,
Speaker 1: even though he has no reason to be mad at me,
Speaker 1: right you know. So I mean, sure, I've of course
Speaker 1: played my parts in the marriage, like I've said before,
Speaker 1: but with the ending of it, it's like and he
Speaker 1: even knows, like he even said, he's like, you could
Speaker 1: run me over with the bus if you wanted to, um,
Speaker 1: but I don't. I don't want I just like I
Speaker 1: don't want that that anymore. But I also want to
Speaker 1: share my experiences and and share all that. But then
Speaker 1: it's like, but I don't want the flak from from that,
Speaker 1: and I want that to go away. But then I'm like, okay, then,
Speaker 1: and then what am I sharing? Like? Who am I? Like?
Speaker 1: Is it just I don't know, it's just confusing. I
Speaker 1: get that there's a there's an identity loss here, right,
Speaker 1: I mean both kind of personally and publicly. I really
Speaker 1: I'm really taking that in and that that is I'm
Speaker 1: sure totally disorienting, which prompted that call like, well, who
Speaker 1: am I if I'm not this? And he boxed in
Speaker 1: and not kind of free and spontaneous like and theoretically
Speaker 1: you hope to in the aftermath of of this kind
Speaker 1: of shift, you know that you start to feel like
Speaker 1: more rather than like expansive rather than narrow, right, And
Speaker 1: I guess you're feeling narrowed right now, which is a
Speaker 1: very difficult, painful place to be. I would I would
Speaker 1: offer that I imagine this will be evolving, meaning that
Speaker 1: there might be another time in space where your story
Speaker 1: is able to be delivered in a way that isn't
Speaker 1: so current and isn't so conflictual and um, where your
Speaker 1: kids are a bit older and can hold all the sides. Um,
Speaker 1: so this might not be like the ending to the story,
Speaker 1: you know, and um. The word that keeps coming to
Speaker 1: mind is you're talking about it is grace, you know,
Speaker 1: grace and being able to ground yourself in the grace
Speaker 1: of what you're doing. You know, what I'd love to
Speaker 1: talk about is gaslighting because I feel like the term
Speaker 1: is is used a lot, and I've h I didn't
Speaker 1: honestly know what it was. So can you just kind
Speaker 1: of give a broad spectrum of what gas lighting is
Speaker 1: and and um in all of its traits and where
Speaker 1: it comes from. Yeah. So the idea of gaslighting, which
Speaker 1: is actually a super old concept, is the idea of
Speaker 1: sort of using kind of emotional manipulation to make the
Speaker 1: receiver of that energy or that dynamic kind of question
Speaker 1: their own reality or emotional experience. And yeah, I feel
Speaker 1: like in those types of relationships to the person that's
Speaker 1: gaslighting doesn't know, doesn't won't like say that they're gaslighting, like,
Speaker 1: they'll continue to still make you feel crazy. And I
Speaker 1: think that's like the part where I've I've been stuck
Speaker 1: for you in my past relationships. Yeah, that's the key
Speaker 1: element of gas lighting. That that that's that that's the
Speaker 1: core of it. The pain of it is that the
Speaker 1: person doing the gas lighting is committed to denying that
Speaker 1: the dynamic is occurring. And that is because there's sort
Speaker 1: of a protection of their own wound, their own vulnerability,
Speaker 1: their own responsibility, their own accountability. So it's sort of
Speaker 1: like a almost like a like there's a frenetic energy
Speaker 1: around denying your reality in the service of protecting their's,
Speaker 1: which is, I did nothing wrong, I have nothing to
Speaker 1: be accountable for, I have nothing to look at, I
Speaker 1: have nothing to deal with. I'm not responsible here. So
Speaker 1: when you know that that person is doing it, how
Speaker 1: can you not let that gaslighting person affect you? Because
Speaker 1: I think that's where I struggle with have had struggled
Speaker 1: with the most in the past, is like they make
Speaker 1: you question your craziness so good that you're like, maybe
Speaker 1: I am crazy, but then really comes to find out
Speaker 1: that you're not, and it's you know, here's the proof
Speaker 1: of A through Z. But even when you're out of
Speaker 1: that situation, how do you not let that still creep in? Two?
Speaker 1: Not um letting them affect you in that way? Yeah,
Speaker 1: well you kind of started where I was going to start,
Speaker 1: which is that how one doesn't let intense pathological gaslighting
Speaker 1: impact them is uh is sort of an unanswerable question,
Speaker 1: meaning the only way to not have an impact you
Speaker 1: is to leave. If it's toxic and pathological, right, there's
Speaker 1: no matter how psychologically savvy and sturdy, you are one
Speaker 1: cannot be um not impacted by having that kind of
Speaker 1: toxicity sort of put upon them. So my general advice
Speaker 1: is if you find yourself in that kind of situation,
Speaker 1: to find support help in exiting the situation. But where
Speaker 1: you're talking about is the aftermath, because there's collateral damage
Speaker 1: that happens. Right you start questioning yourself and feeling um
Speaker 1: a sense of disorientation that what your experience tells you
Speaker 1: might not be correct, and can feel a lack of
Speaker 1: groundedness and connectedness. So I think it's it's it's critical
Speaker 1: to regard that as as a trauma of sorts, and
Speaker 1: to do some trauma work to deal with the grief,
Speaker 1: to deal with the depression, to deal with the anxiety
Speaker 1: in a very slow and deliberate way, and ideally in
Speaker 1: a professional setting. And then as you start to re
Speaker 1: emerge in kind of the aftermath of that trauma, to
Speaker 1: be surrounding yourself with people who are available for a
Speaker 1: sort of vulnerable, supportive, messy discussions and reflections. So I
Speaker 1: think it's about the inside work and then about what
Speaker 1: your life looks like and feels like as you kind
Speaker 1: of re emerge from that trauma. Yeah, for sure. I
Speaker 1: was going to say too that I think when you
Speaker 1: find yourself going down that path, you know to be
Speaker 1: very deliberate about that moment of sort of questioning yourself
Speaker 1: or doubting yourself, to really be like very deliberate about
Speaker 1: how you talk to yourself in that moment to kind
Speaker 1: of have enough mindfulness that you step outside yourself. It
Speaker 1: might sound um um overly simplified, but even picturing like
Speaker 1: a red stop sign stop, you know that you're literally
Speaker 1: interrupting the dynamic, the like neural pathway that goes from like,
Speaker 1: oh this happened to like I'm wrong, I'm bad, because
Speaker 1: that's what we do. We developed like an automatic, uh
Speaker 1: sort of a path to like something bad happens, and
Speaker 1: you're all the way to like I'm bad, I'm wrong,
Speaker 1: I'm not valuable, and being able to interrupt that and
Speaker 1: stop it and talk yourself through it, like wait a minute,
Speaker 1: what's happening here? What is my intuition telling me, what
Speaker 1: part of that feels right? What part of that is
Speaker 1: resonating with me? And to be able to kind of
Speaker 1: reparent yourself back to trusting your own voice and to
Speaker 1: kind of tolerate moments. Maybe you don't get it right,
Speaker 1: maybe do get it right. Sometimes that's what um um.
Speaker 1: Relying on our own intuition looks like. Right, we never
Speaker 1: get right all the time. But being able to build
Speaker 1: like a new relationship with ourselves around listening to ourselves,
Speaker 1: because gas lighting takes us outside of ourselves, we have
Speaker 1: to go back in. It's that's like it's just so
Speaker 1: hard to do though, I mean because it's like, you know,
Speaker 1: even when people like, oh, you're strong, I'm like, no,
Speaker 1: I'm not. I'm weak and I'm miss and then it's
Speaker 1: like the negative voices that we feed into ourselves. And
Speaker 1: then even like you know, the other night, when I
Speaker 1: had just gotten home from Connecticut and I was home alone,
Speaker 1: I was like, oh I miss you know, I miss
Speaker 1: my my family. And then I'm like, okay, what do
Speaker 1: I What do I miss? Am I missing? Am I
Speaker 1: actually missing Mike? Or am I missing? And it's like
Speaker 1: that when you start to really break it down and
Speaker 1: you're like okay, and then you can get back into,
Speaker 1: you know, um, a healthier mind frame around it. But
Speaker 1: it is very hard when you start telling yourself certain
Speaker 1: things that when you really separate it out and you're
Speaker 1: in your right and it's like, okay, no, this is
Speaker 1: what I miss. I just missed that, you know, I
Speaker 1: hate that this happened. Then I miss my kids upstairs.
Speaker 1: But like, if I was to do this again, I
Speaker 1: wouldn't go through it again, you know, I wouldn't. And
Speaker 1: it's good to sit that down. But in those moments,
Speaker 1: it's very hard because am like I miss him, and
Speaker 1: I'm like, wait a minute, let's take it. Take a beat.
Speaker 1: What do you miss And then you're like, okay, yeah,
Speaker 1: it couldn't be harder, and you won't do it every time, right,
Speaker 1: Sometimes our emotions just take over and they get the
Speaker 1: best of us. You're right, it's emotional heavy lifting in
Speaker 1: the middle of brief It couldn't be harder. So it's
Speaker 1: good that you're saying that out loud, both to like
Speaker 1: validate it for yourself for your listeners that like that
Speaker 1: is the most difficult thing to do, is like to
Speaker 1: stand up against those voices. But I had a thought
Speaker 1: that you know, when you have those moments where you're
Speaker 1: thinking people say to you you're so strong, and your
Speaker 1: head you're thinking like, I'm that's not true, I'm weak.
Speaker 1: You know all that and that sort of conflict about
Speaker 1: how people see you, how you really feel inside. I
Speaker 1: think it's so important. I was talking at the beginning
Speaker 1: about like feelings coexisting and how important is to lean
Speaker 1: into that truth if you can feel like strong and
Speaker 1: weak at the same time, like both can be so true.
Speaker 1: And to be careful not to exile those parts of you.
Speaker 1: They're like super useful that are have a lot of
Speaker 1: important information to tell us. Like the part of you
Speaker 1: that's quote weak, which I'm putting in quotes, is really
Speaker 1: important to heap close to us, not to exile it
Speaker 1: and kind of call it bad and try to make
Speaker 1: it not a part of us, but to bring it close.
Speaker 1: Like what are you trying to tell me? Like kind
Speaker 1: of what you just we're talking about? What's the weak
Speaker 1: quote week voice trying to tell me? Oh, I'm sad
Speaker 1: I'm missing this part of this dream, this narrative I
Speaker 1: had about what my life is supposed to be is
Speaker 1: is different now has fallen apart, and how that makes
Speaker 1: me feel so like not so quickly exiling those sort
Speaker 1: of quote bad parts of yourself. They're good, They're like
Speaker 1: super important for us to get closer to, not get
Speaker 1: far away. So maybe that helps in this like darker
Speaker 1: part of where you are right now, to like invite
Speaker 1: those pieces in so you can learn more from them
Speaker 1: rather than feel like, oh, they're so bad, I just
Speaker 1: want them to go away. Yeah. No, I love that.
Speaker 1: I do appreciate that a lot. And thanks for happening on.
Speaker 1: I know you. I know you have a very busy day,
Speaker 1: so I appreciate the time that you do give us
Speaker 1: here at one down. We we appreciate you very much.
Speaker 1: So good to see you YouTube Maney. I'll talk to
Speaker 1: you soon on my next breakdown. UM. You know what's
Speaker 1: interesting about that is I actually have, UM, I've got this.
Speaker 1: I've got so many notes on my phone. One of
Speaker 1: the things that I said, you know, I I write,
Speaker 1: UM instead of saying negative things to my ex. I've
Speaker 1: got a I literally a full notepad of just everything
Speaker 1: I want to say when I'm having a bad day. UM,
Speaker 1: and I just I Sometimes we will even put an
Speaker 1: email form but I click, you know delete. Just getting
Speaker 1: it out sometimes very helpful because there's a lot of
Speaker 1: emotions that come with um, you know, being in this
Speaker 1: this season. UM. And then yeah, when I do miss
Speaker 1: you know, because there's times when of course I miss
Speaker 1: my ex and to be able to sit down and go, okay,
Speaker 1: yes there was good moments here, but I go back here,
Speaker 1: here's what I don't miss, and then it's like, okay, yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't. I don't want to go back to that,
Speaker 1: Like this is this is a healthier, but it's still
Speaker 1: it's still hard. And so if you're struggling with that,
Speaker 1: like it's it's okay to still have those feelings. I
Speaker 1: do too, It's normal, I think. But UM, but with
Speaker 1: the negative things I have realized, you know, just write
Speaker 1: them down because they feel really good to get out.
Speaker 1: Just don't send them because it's not going to get
Speaker 1: you anywhere. UM. Let's take a break and then I'm
Speaker 1: going to go through a few of the things that
Speaker 1: you guys wanted me to talk about, UM from my
Speaker 1: instagram the other day. So we were talking about different
Speaker 1: kind of co hosts to have on the show, UM
Speaker 1: and different guests that we can have on and Uh,
Speaker 1: one of the topics that you brought up, which I
Speaker 1: think is really interesting, is about UM, good guys, my
Speaker 1: favorite topic, your favorite topic, but do they really finish last?
Speaker 1: You know? UM? And I thought that was a interesting
Speaker 1: um topic that we can talk about. But also if
Speaker 1: you guys want, if you have any guest co host
Speaker 1: ideas or other topics that you want us to talk about.
Speaker 1: What's the email again? Because I never remember wind down
Speaker 1: I Heart radio dot com wind down at heart radio
Speaker 1: dot com. But we started. We talked about nice nice guys.
Speaker 1: Because have you watched this show f Boy Island on
Speaker 1: HBO Max? I have not watched anything, like I haven't
Speaker 1: watched sex life. I'm like, I'm so far behind, so
Speaker 1: I need to like start. First of all, sex life
Speaker 1: is amazing. Sex life is literally amazing, not just because
Speaker 1: of the like sex is it like Britain? Yeah, it's
Speaker 1: it's pretty, it's pretty aggressively softcore, like it's not further
Speaker 1: than that. But that wasn't what I loved. What I
Speaker 1: loved about it was like the topics that it made
Speaker 1: me think about, is there someone for everyone? Is the
Speaker 1: good guy? The one that you actually want? And it
Speaker 1: really goes into that, just like f Boy Island. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that would be interesting. Yeah, do you think you would
Speaker 1: like a good guy? Like an all around good guy?
Speaker 1: I mean, I think that's like what we all want
Speaker 1: and deserve. You know, and I think that's Um. I mean,
Speaker 1: I definitely think that that's what we deserve. I I
Speaker 1: have had not I've had a very bad picker. Um.
Speaker 1: And do you think you're more attracted? Like could you
Speaker 1: be attracted to the good guy or do you lose
Speaker 1: attraction quickly? Okay? So I mean, how do I like?
Speaker 1: I think it's one of those things where you or I.
Speaker 1: I have had good guys in my past that I
Speaker 1: could easily walk all over and that's not good because
Speaker 1: they got hurt in the end. I hurt them. I
Speaker 1: didn't feel good about myself. But I can't have the
Speaker 1: guys that are just like, yes, whatever you want. Janna.
Speaker 1: Like that to me is like I need some like
Speaker 1: push and pull. I need the good guy, but that
Speaker 1: also has a backbone, and that's what I'm looking for.
Speaker 1: I think we have to teach ourselves. And I'm not
Speaker 1: an expert, but you sort of have to teach yourself
Speaker 1: to like the good guy because for whatever reason, you're chemistry,
Speaker 1: your makeup is attracted to to not that the good
Speaker 1: guy might seem boring to you. Yeah, no for sure.
Speaker 1: And it's like the fights, might you know. I'm I'm
Speaker 1: used to explosive and finding the awful things. But I
Speaker 1: don't want that anymore. But at the same time, like
Speaker 1: that's been the drama in my life for the past
Speaker 1: you know, ten plus a year. So it's like, I
Speaker 1: would love to just be comfortable with someone that respects me.
Speaker 1: And you know, and I have talked about this, because
Speaker 1: there is a chemical release that happens really when you fight,
Speaker 1: because you and I've talked about it, but sometimes you
Speaker 1: almost want to go back to the bad guy just
Speaker 1: to make yourself feel better for a minute, which does work,
Speaker 1: but it only works for a minute. It doesn't feel
Speaker 1: good in the end. I would rather And that's like
Speaker 1: sometimes when I look at my mom and her relationship,
Speaker 1: it's like, he's such a good guy, and yeah, he
Speaker 1: probably like drives her crazy, but at the end of
Speaker 1: the day, she's just like, you know, he's just such
Speaker 1: a good guy, and I'm like, I just I'm like
Speaker 1: I want that. I want just a good guy and
Speaker 1: like where the fights can be over, you know, um
Speaker 1: being a little passive in text versus oh you cheated
Speaker 1: on me, or like but how long how old was
Speaker 1: your mom when she started that relationship? Yeah, I mean
Speaker 1: five years ago. She was divorced for fifteen plus years.
Speaker 1: I think, and this is just the journey for you
Speaker 1: as you're getting older. I think you are going to
Speaker 1: enjoy that good guy more. I definitely, I mean, like,
Speaker 1: I definitely hear you on that. Um, I mean obviously
Speaker 1: I know some good guys right now. I mean, you know, yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, look, tell me a little bit about that.
Speaker 1: What Okay, so pretend we don't know who you're talking about,
Speaker 1: but you're talking about a good guy. He's a good guy. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you're working hard to have a great friendship with with
Speaker 1: the potential of more. What makes you nervous because he's
Speaker 1: a good guy, Like, what is your what goes on
Speaker 1: in your head or body that freaks you out? I
Speaker 1: think for me, it's like outside noise number one too,
Speaker 1: my kids, and just like not not being ready and
Speaker 1: then and then because I'm not here here honestly it's me.
Speaker 1: I'm I'm because I'm not ready to accept the good
Speaker 1: guy yet. I don't think I deserve it. And that's
Speaker 1: where my issue is. And that's where I'm like, if
Speaker 1: I were to date this person right now, I would
Speaker 1: probably end up sabotaging it and ruining it. And and
Speaker 1: not being and and ruining something that I could see
Speaker 1: be a potential forever relationship. Um And I'm like, I
Speaker 1: have to get to a place where I actually feel
Speaker 1: like I deserve the good guy because I'm so used
Speaker 1: to hearing the last seven years negative things thrown at
Speaker 1: me about who I am and what I am and
Speaker 1: how I It's like, we're so now I'm like, okay,
Speaker 1: that's so, that's who I am. So I'm trying to
Speaker 1: break that narrative so that way I can be open
Speaker 1: to that good guy. It's just, you know, I mean,
Speaker 1: I was abused when I was nineteen, you know, so
Speaker 1: it's like, okay, no, I'm I'm I'm meant to be
Speaker 1: grabbed and I'm meant to be hit. And it's like
Speaker 1: now I know, now, I know like that I don't
Speaker 1: deserve that anymore. And I would never allow a guy
Speaker 1: to hurt me. Having said that, I've had twenty plus
Speaker 1: years of trauma of abusive relationships that I'm like, I still, somehow,
Speaker 1: in small part of me, still thinks inside of me
Speaker 1: that maybe I do deserve that. And that's the part
Speaker 1: that I have to break or I will. And I
Speaker 1: even hate to say that because like, nobody deserves that,
Speaker 1: and I know that it's so normal because we get
Speaker 1: so used to what we know. I want to go backwards.
Speaker 1: When you said outside voices, we explain what that means.
Speaker 1: What is outside voices? It's like media, it's people. It's like, oh,
Speaker 1: you can't move on too fast. You can like Amanda Clutes, Okay.
Speaker 1: I actually was talking to my friend Caitlin Crosby about
Speaker 1: this because she's friends with her, and I go, you
Speaker 1: know what, tell her, I love her and I appreciate
Speaker 1: her just sharing her story and her authenticity because obviously
Speaker 1: her husband died from covid um last year and she
Speaker 1: had mentioned that she's I don't know if she's dating
Speaker 1: or she says she's open to dating, and people were like,
Speaker 1: how could you date? Like when your husband just died
Speaker 1: a year ago? It's like, why can't you just let
Speaker 1: people grieve how they want to grieve, date when they
Speaker 1: want to date and be happy. And that's like, but
Speaker 1: for me, because I have I don't know what it
Speaker 1: is about me. I don't know if it's because I'm
Speaker 1: a people pleaser, if it's because I I'm just so
Speaker 1: worried what people think or they make assumptions because of
Speaker 1: my past, because I always feel like I'm like climbing
Speaker 1: up a ladder trying to be like, but I was
Speaker 1: nineteen but he tried to kill me. But I we
Speaker 1: were only married for a week, but he cheated on me.
Speaker 1: It's like, but I'm like always trying to like astric
Speaker 1: my past that I'm like, Okay, people will just see
Speaker 1: this and then go, oh, well, of course she's moving
Speaker 1: on fast with Graham or whoever, because you know, she's
Speaker 1: you know, blah blah blah. And I'm like, why should
Speaker 1: I can care? What? Well, thank you? Why can't I
Speaker 1: just be happy? Why can't Amanda be happy? But you know, like,
Speaker 1: come on, yeah, it's hard not to you should read this.
Speaker 1: So there's this comedian Patton Oswald and he had let's
Speaker 1: get him on the show. Yeah no, wait till you
Speaker 1: hear is so amazing. So he had this beautiful marriage
Speaker 1: and wonderful family, and his wife tragically died like it
Speaker 1: was out of nowhere. And soon thereafter he married Meredith Salinger,
Speaker 1: who's this actress like from the kind of nineties ish
Speaker 1: eighties nineties, and the same thing happened to them, where
Speaker 1: the whether it's the press or the noise or Instagram
Speaker 1: followers had a lot of judgment, and I remember someone
Speaker 1: else wrote this beautiful Facebook post explaining why you really
Speaker 1: need to let people do things when they feel they
Speaker 1: need to do them. And I'll find it for you
Speaker 1: because it summed it up so amazingly. And now he
Speaker 1: God has this amazing marriage with married to Salinger, whether
Speaker 1: or not somebody else thought it was too soon. Drowning
Speaker 1: out the noise is so hard, Like are you able
Speaker 1: to be better about it at all? Now? You know?
Speaker 1: What is like the worst of it is I still
Speaker 1: think that I still think that I care what my
Speaker 1: ex thinks about me, where I'm like why I don't
Speaker 1: want him to think that I'm like, you know, because
Speaker 1: because of past conversations like oh yeah, you're just you know,
Speaker 1: doing what you do, and I'm like, no, that's not
Speaker 1: who I am. Like it's like where I still feel
Speaker 1: like I have to like prove that like I'm worthy
Speaker 1: and that I'm lovable and that I'm enough and like
Speaker 1: that I'm you know, that I'm not repeating patterns or so.
Speaker 1: I think it's just I want to get to a
Speaker 1: place where I don't care what anyone thinks, my ex
Speaker 1: the people, the and I'm getting there. But it's just
Speaker 1: a hard um. You know, have you ever studied the
Speaker 1: Hoffsman method? No, but I'm here for whatever. Okay, so
Speaker 1: we should get all of our Hudson on you know,
Speaker 1: Kate Hudson's brother, because he has a lot of people,
Speaker 1: don't I think it's sort of like maybe like a
Speaker 1: I don't want to speak out of school where you
Speaker 1: it's very anonymous, but he I don't feel bad saying
Speaker 1: it because he's publicly talked about it. But I think
Speaker 1: you have to go away for a week though, no
Speaker 1: cell phone? Yeah Hoffman, Yeah, yeah, no, no, no, I
Speaker 1: I know exactly. Um, yes, I know exactly what that.
Speaker 1: I've looked into it. I want to do it, yes,
Speaker 1: all of that. Yeah, you just need to find a week.
Speaker 1: But it's hard, Like do you think you could give
Speaker 1: up your cell phone? No cell phone, no books, no TV,
Speaker 1: no anything for a week and you kind of immerse
Speaker 1: yourself in this method? So I did. For there's a
Speaker 1: place called on Site. It's very similar and that's where
Speaker 1: I've kind of, um, I have not followed through completely
Speaker 1: with the Hoffman like for the week process, of it
Speaker 1: because I'm like, well, I feel like I did that
Speaker 1: at on site, which is the same thing I gave
Speaker 1: my cell phone, Like I did all of that. So yeah, no,
Speaker 1: I definitely could, and honestly, it would be really nice
Speaker 1: to not have my phone on me. From what I
Speaker 1: understand is, they don't necessarily deal with like your marriage
Speaker 1: breaking up. They go back further to figure out why
Speaker 1: you became attracted to people that maybe don't treat you.
Speaker 1: We'll feel like, I feel like I already know that
Speaker 1: because that's you know, my childhood traumas and the wounds
Speaker 1: and like the now it's just breaking the pattern, you know. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but I think, okay, clocks chicken, time to do it.
Speaker 1: But I already have my babies, So like that's where
Speaker 1: I'm like, like, but but now it's time to do
Speaker 1: you like, time to not repeat these patterns that you've
Speaker 1: been doing, because what you have to do is be
Speaker 1: attracted to the good guy. Uh do you? Like? Okay,
Speaker 1: so with the good guy? And I don't want to
Speaker 1: get into it, but we will. Do you are you
Speaker 1: sexually attracted to the good guy or does that get
Speaker 1: messed up by that push pull thing that you've had
Speaker 1: in the past. I definitely think that if you have
Speaker 1: chemistry doesn't matter whether it's the good or the bad,
Speaker 1: because I will say I've had I've I've felt the
Speaker 1: sexiest and like have had you know, like I just
Speaker 1: I since like I feel super sexy now. So like,
Speaker 1: I don't think that plays a role in like the
Speaker 1: good guy aspect of it, because here's the thing. But
Speaker 1: if it's not like the same kind of chemistry, then
Speaker 1: that would be really hard. But I don't think that.
Speaker 1: I don't think it really matters on so we can
Speaker 1: check attraction isn't the problem. Okay, what about this, like
Speaker 1: when the good guy texts you, do you get a flutter?
Speaker 1: Or what happened? I think where people I think in
Speaker 1: the beginning, there's always that, right, like when you start
Speaker 1: something and you get on a nap or you meet
Speaker 1: someone new, you're like, Okay, you get that flutter, you
Speaker 1: get that instant like adrenaline endorphin hit like it's it's
Speaker 1: a great feeling, and then it's just like any other thing,
Speaker 1: that starts to fade. So you have to be like, Okay,
Speaker 1: that's that's where it's like when that fades, do you
Speaker 1: still want to be with this person and still talk
Speaker 1: to them and still text with them and stuff. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think you get attracted. Okay, tell me if I'm
Speaker 1: way off the mark with this. I think you get
Speaker 1: attracted to the Oh it's going wrong, Let me do this,
Speaker 1: Let me do this to get it back good again.
Speaker 1: Let it And then that becomes kind of the challenge
Speaker 1: to you. And then it's like, then the relationships better
Speaker 1: and it's cruising for a minute, and then it hits
Speaker 1: a speed bump and you're like, Okay, let me work
Speaker 1: to get this back again. And it's just that up
Speaker 1: down that you get so addicted to. Yeah, and that's
Speaker 1: what I don't want anymore, Just like I just wanted
Speaker 1: to like be chill and like not the up and
Speaker 1: down because I can't. I can't emotionally handle that anymore.
Speaker 1: Like that's just something that I don't want anymore. Like
Speaker 1: there's and obviously I have things that I have to
Speaker 1: work on for the next relationship, but I just want
Speaker 1: to just not have that. And I I can only
Speaker 1: ask for the good because the good guys have a
Speaker 1: chance with you, right Wow? Does the good guy have
Speaker 1: a chance with you right now in this moment? No?
Speaker 1: Because I need like I need time to like accept
Speaker 1: the goodness? Is that just b s Jannah? What if
Speaker 1: you just say I want the good guy and I'm
Speaker 1: gonna do this when I when I feel like I
Speaker 1: deserve that, I will. I just am not there yet.
Speaker 1: I know, but I'm not there yet. I need more therapy.
Speaker 1: I don't. But what if maybe you don't. What if
Speaker 1: you say I'm gonna try this with the good guy.
Speaker 1: What if you just I don't know, forced yourself you're strong,
Speaker 1: and then in six months see how it is. Yeah,
Speaker 1: maybe I don't know. I just I think it's different
Speaker 1: because like kids, and honestly, like I don't want I
Speaker 1: don't want to fail. I just I feel like a
Speaker 1: relationship failure. So I just I'm like, I just it's
Speaker 1: easier just to just to heal. And then I don't think.
Speaker 1: So you have you're very like a serial monogamous. You've
Speaker 1: had these long, what I consider successful relationships. They just
Speaker 1: weren't perfect. Well, nothing's perfect, but those they were just destructive.
Speaker 1: So there will be with a good guy or not
Speaker 1: a good guy. There will never be a perfect relationship.
Speaker 1: It just don't be aking bomb going off every two minutes. Okay, like,
Speaker 1: that's that's the difference. You can't do worse. Yeah, I'm like,
Speaker 1: don't hit me, don't cheat on me, and please don't
Speaker 1: say mean words to me. Like the bar is very low.
Speaker 1: People like and that's very sad. You just had a
Speaker 1: good time. Now, Okay, I have another question, because I
Speaker 1: get this. Do you think you could date data around?
Speaker 1: I'm not a dator, I'm not like I just I
Speaker 1: don't do well at that. I'm like, like, I don't
Speaker 1: know how to date. I don't like games, like I
Speaker 1: don't like to Texas, but like, I just don't like it.
Speaker 1: I'm like, yeah, it's not my thing. Seems kind of
Speaker 1: bananas to me. But like, is that what you're supposed
Speaker 1: to try? Are you supposed to try that dating multiple people?
Speaker 1: I mean that sounds miserable and one of the reasons
Speaker 1: why I didn't want to get divorced. Yeah, I was like,
Speaker 1: I don't want to date. It sounds awful. Would you
Speaker 1: ever be the Bachelor? Would you ever be the Bachelorette? Oh?
Speaker 1: My okay, First of all, I'd be like the grandma
Speaker 1: of the bachelorettes, like so old thirty because thirty eight
Speaker 1: in December, So I don't think they would ever ever,
Speaker 1: um pretend? Who cares? Would you do it? And do
Speaker 1: you think that you would thrive in that situation? Could
Speaker 1: you pull that off? I could never be a bachelorette, like,
Speaker 1: you know, I can never be like on the Bachelor,
Speaker 1: like with a bunch of other girls, Like it would
Speaker 1: just be too hard for me. Like, but I could actually,
Speaker 1: I take that back. It'd be fun to like form
Speaker 1: relationships and not care about the guy. But no, I
Speaker 1: would do the bachelorette. Yeah, I would do it. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I think that's sort of like conducive to you. Well,
Speaker 1: that's okay. I have so many questions could you do apps?
Speaker 1: Like could you go on apps? Well? I said a
Speaker 1: few weeks ago that I've like, I've been on and
Speaker 1: off of a dating app because I'm like this, I
Speaker 1: hate that thing. And then because my friend Caitlin was like,
Speaker 1: you know, you're not getting any connections because you have
Speaker 1: photo of your kids up and I'm like, well, there,
Speaker 1: I'm a mom, Like I'm gonna put a picture of
Speaker 1: my kids like and so I just kind of go
Speaker 1: I just I'm not like, what about just the old,
Speaker 1: good old set up? How do you feel about that?
Speaker 1: Like somebody just set you up, Like I could do
Speaker 1: a set up for you, Like you don't even know
Speaker 1: really lining up. I've got guys that are begging me,
Speaker 1: that is, but would you do it? I just I
Speaker 1: don't know. I don't know, like who, well, I mean
Speaker 1: now I need to really put my mind to it.
Speaker 1: She's like, no, one, no, no, no, I do have
Speaker 1: a few, and it's like I think I can't. Set
Speaker 1: ups are tricky, but I think they could work for
Speaker 1: you because you have to turn it over to somebody
Speaker 1: else going this person knows, this guy is an all
Speaker 1: around good guy. That's okay. Well, let's just what's your
Speaker 1: age range? And well, can they be out of Nashville.
Speaker 1: Let's just do this, let's just play with it. Oh
Speaker 1: my gosh, um no, I'm good. I'm just gonna focus
Speaker 1: on me. No no, no, no, no no. What would
Speaker 1: be the ultimate age range? And can they be in California?
Speaker 1: They can be wherever they want? Um, thirties six too?
Speaker 1: Can we lower it to like thirty two that I
Speaker 1: had that last time didn't work? Okay, but you know
Speaker 1: what's a positive And I have other friends in very
Speaker 1: similar situations to you. You're laughing, and you're open to it.
Speaker 1: I think that that is a step in the right direction.
Speaker 1: Like you might not be able to really feel better yet,
Speaker 1: but the light is sort of out there, like I
Speaker 1: won't even say it's quite at the end of the tunnel,
Speaker 1: but it's like soon it will be. It's like you're
Speaker 1: you're I know you had Like I knew because when
Speaker 1: we texted earlier today, I literally was like, I need
Speaker 1: to be really steady for Janna right now because she's bummed.
Speaker 1: Like you, it's pretty easy for your friends to know, like, oh, yeah,
Speaker 1: my I wear my emotions like, yeah, like my friend
Speaker 1: because I'm like Janna having an s H I T
Speaker 1: T y day. We gotta have her back. And so
Speaker 1: my thing is like you work through it, and I
Speaker 1: know you're in pain, but you're also like laughing and
Speaker 1: open to these things we're talking about it. Yeah. I mean,
Speaker 1: before I would date anyone, though, I would, I would,
Speaker 1: I would um, I would try out the good guy first.
Speaker 1: I think you have to be good guys only, and
Speaker 1: if they're a little bit boring, you need to give
Speaker 1: them ten more tries. Well, Amy, how's that going for
Speaker 1: you in your relationship? That is that going good? For you, Janna,
Speaker 1: those who cannot do teach so like everything you experience,
Speaker 1: I fully understand because it's hard to be for some reason.
Speaker 1: I use attraction to be attracted to the dull nice guy.
Speaker 1: We're gonna get a lot of emails from the nice
Speaker 1: guys going f you. But it's like, sometimes you girls
Speaker 1: are attracted to that bad boy. Yeah, I explain that
Speaker 1: to me. Well, we'll have to get Dr Hillary back
Speaker 1: on for that, but yeah, um, but we will do
Speaker 1: that some other time. Maybe we'll bring Graham on and
Speaker 1: he can he can talk about the good guys and
Speaker 1: when when uh, and you know, how they're doing out there.
Speaker 1: We definitely should because I would love to hear his
Speaker 1: perspective of dealing with women like you who are attracted
Speaker 1: when he's like, I'm great, yeah, And I love his
Speaker 1: confidence to like he's like, you know, I'm not gonna
Speaker 1: wait around, but I'm also, you know, gonna And he's
Speaker 1: so handsome. Did you look at his Instagram last week?
Speaker 1: Because he posted a picture like in the back of
Speaker 1: a truck and I was like, dude, he's very handsome, right,
Speaker 1: so why can't you just throw caution to the wind
Speaker 1: and try it? Amy I have healing to do. Stop
Speaker 1: trying to make the betch happen. It's not gonna happen.
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, I'm interrupting your knee time. Jesus all right, dying,
Speaker 1: We'll keep working through it. I love you so much.
Speaker 1: Thanks for making me last. I went from following my
Speaker 1: eyes out to laughing. So I appreciate y'all. I love you,
Speaker 1: and I hope you see yourself the way everyone else
Speaker 1: sees you, that you're just trying to figure this crap
Speaker 1: out exactly. And I'm and I'm sorry that, um, you
Speaker 1: all just heard this UM one on one conversation with
Speaker 1: me and Amy on my producer. But hopefully we all
Speaker 1: know that we deserve the good guy and UM, but
Speaker 1: you have to do your work. You're healing and you
Speaker 1: need to know that you're enough. And just like me,
Speaker 1: I tattooed it on so one day, you know, I
Speaker 1: don't know. We'll figure it out. Stay tuned for next
Speaker 1: week