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Speaker 1: This is Dana Perkins, and you're listening to Switched on

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Speaker 1: the B and EF podcast. On today's bonus episode, which

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Speaker 1: is actually our final one in our twenty twenty four

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Speaker 1: Things to Watch series, we speak with Kathy Gao about

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Speaker 1: what we should be watching in the hydrogen space in

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Speaker 1: the year ahead. We start by discussing off take agreements

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Speaker 1: and the potential for shipping and aviation to step up

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Speaker 1: as customers and sources of demand. We also look at

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Speaker 1: methods of hydrogen production across different regions and whether nuclear

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Speaker 1: or pink hydrogen may become a more viable option in

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Speaker 1: the air ahead, and we assess the global policies that

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Speaker 1: could help drive hydrogen production in twenty twenty four, in

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Speaker 1: particular in the US, where the long awaited guidance on

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Speaker 1: the IRA has now been released. To access this research

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Speaker 1: note titled Hydrogen ten Things to Watch for twenty twenty four,

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Speaker 1: B and EF subscribers can find it at BNF dot

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Speaker 1: com and at BNF go on the Bloomberg terminal. If

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Speaker 1: you like this podcast, make sure to subscribe, and if

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Speaker 1: you want to share with others, well, you can send

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Speaker 1: it to them, or you can give us a review

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Speaker 1: on Apple podcasts or Spotify. But right now, let's speak

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Speaker 1: with Kathy about the year ahead for hydrogen. Kathy, thank

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Speaker 1: you very much for joining today to talk to us

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Speaker 1: about the year ahead for hydrogen.

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Speaker 2: Thanks Dana, happy to be here.

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Speaker 1: So as we think about the year ahead, you know, really,

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Speaker 1: when I think about hydrogen, I think about it as

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Speaker 1: this solution that's going to be used more in the

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Speaker 1: longer term, both from the standpoint when we think about

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Speaker 1: how the economics are likely to work out and get

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Speaker 1: a bit cheaper over time, and when we look at

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Speaker 1: some of the learning rates for the technology. So we're

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Speaker 1: really talking about hydrogen in what I consider to be

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Speaker 1: a really unique space for us to talk about it,

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Speaker 1: which is very time delimited. Right, We're going to talk

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Speaker 1: a little bit about the year behind us and then

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Speaker 1: about the year ahead and resist the temptation to look

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Speaker 1: too far into the future. So with that in mind,

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Speaker 1: let's talk a little bit about this hydrogen predictions. We

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Speaker 1: did them last year. We do tend to give ourselves

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Speaker 1: a bit of a scorecard. How well did you do

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Speaker 1: versus well what you thought would happen in twenty twenty three.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think we did pretty well on overall the

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Speaker 2: kind of judgment of the industry. What I'm actually really

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Speaker 2: want to hide light is actually the one that we

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Speaker 2: got wrong is around sort of the project financing kickstarting

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Speaker 2: in the US, which obviously didn't happen last year because

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Speaker 2: of the delays of the US I a guideline on

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Speaker 2: the hydrogen text credit. So I think just by drawing

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Speaker 2: this one examples, this actually highlights the policy and recutory

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Speaker 2: complexity and uncertainty the whole industry's facing right now. So

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Speaker 2: this is actually one thing that we're closely watching for

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Speaker 2: twenty twenty four as well to see whether there could

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Speaker 2: be any policies coming out to actually lift the sector

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Speaker 2: and give positivity to the sectors into twenty twenty four.

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Speaker 1: So that actually was one of your predictions for the

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Speaker 1: year ahead, and the US had finally released this long

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Speaker 1: awaited guidance on the what is it the forty five

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Speaker 1: V tax credit from the IRA. Can you talk a

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Speaker 1: little bit about what the prediction is for that for

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty four.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So obviously the delays in the IRA guide like

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Speaker 2: coming out has actually slowed down a lot of projects

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Speaker 2: eating FID in twenty twenty three in the US. So

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Speaker 2: just to give you an idea of the landscape of

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Speaker 2: the project being proposed. In the US, there's a total

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Speaker 2: of around one point six millimetric town of clean hydrogen

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Speaker 2: projects proposed by twenty thirty and of that amount, only

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Speaker 2: twenty percent has found an off ticker and even you know,

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Speaker 2: less than one percent has reached FID by the end

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Speaker 2: of last year. So it tells sort of the challenge

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Speaker 2: the whole industry is facing right now. There's not much

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Speaker 2: demand and much less keating the financial milestone. So the

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Speaker 2: IRA guide like coming out actually right before Christmas last year,

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Speaker 2: was actually very good news for the whole industries. So

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Speaker 2: the US actually offers one of the most generous subsidy

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Speaker 2: for clean hydrogen production, as high as three dollar packge

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Speaker 2: of hydrogen. The highest subsidy actually lies for hydrogen with

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Speaker 2: very low emission standard of less than point forty five

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Speaker 2: kg of CO two, so those hydrogen could get the

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Speaker 2: highest level of subsidies. So the IRA actually comes out

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Speaker 2: much trigger than most have hoped. So it requires project

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Speaker 2: to meet a few criterias to be able to qualify

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Speaker 2: for the subsidies, one of them being the hydrogen having

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Speaker 2: to couple with new build or additional renewable resources, so

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Speaker 2: it cannot draw power from existing power such as nuclear.

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Speaker 2: The second one is that there should be hourly matching

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Speaker 2: between hydrogen production and the renewable generation. So this is

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Speaker 2: also really hard to hit because a lot of the

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Speaker 2: renewable generation are intermittent and electualizer are actually not ready

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Speaker 2: to take those intermittent power. So in order to match

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Speaker 2: the renewable generation and hydro production, you need the technology

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Speaker 2: to be ready. We also probably need a portfolio of

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Speaker 2: renewable to support electualizers. You probably need solar and wind

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Speaker 2: and battery storage on signed to support electualizer production, which

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Speaker 2: will obviously raise the cost of clean hydrogen production. So

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Speaker 2: a lot of people are actually quite worried about a

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Speaker 2: Republican presidency and whether that would revoke the IRA subsidy

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Speaker 2: for US. We don't think that would be the case

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Speaker 2: because the IRA subsidy on hydrogen actually has by parties

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Speaker 2: and support, and then we think even with a Republicans presidency,

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Speaker 2: the subsidy would actually survive.

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Speaker 1: So there's a lot happening with IRA implementation, which is

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Speaker 1: a federal policy. But now let's actually talk a little

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Speaker 1: bit more about the US and states are individual states

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Speaker 1: getting in this game and thinking about hydrogen.

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Speaker 2: There's actually a lot of states that are interested in

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Speaker 2: supporting hydrogen. So as we've seen some states actually when

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Speaker 2: I had to launch their own demand site incentive in

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Speaker 2: twenty twenty three, which could actually trigger more states to

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Speaker 2: follow this suit. For example, Colorado has introduced a subsidy

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Speaker 2: of up to one dollar perkg for the users of

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Speaker 2: clean hydrogen in mid twenty twenty three. Illinois has introduced

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Speaker 2: similar subsidies of one dollar package credit as well, but

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Speaker 2: it's more strict so it's only limited to hard to

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Speaker 2: abate sector users. Pennsylvania has also released a text credit

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Speaker 2: of around point eight dollars package of clean hydrogen purchased

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Speaker 2: from the regional Clean Hydrogen HOB which recently got the

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Speaker 2: founding from the federal government. So we expect more stays

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Speaker 2: actually to launch more subsidies because currently only on the

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Speaker 2: federal level, although the government has announced a one point

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Speaker 2: six billion incentive package for supporting the demand of clean

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Speaker 2: hydrogen in twenty twenty three, there was very little detail

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Speaker 2: of how the government is actually going to implement that,

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Speaker 2: so we'll still need to wait and see, you know,

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Speaker 2: how the federal government will do this, but with the

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Speaker 2: lack of certainties on how the federal government will implement that,

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Speaker 2: we think there will be more states actually going ahead

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Speaker 2: and launching their own subsidies to incentivize more demand on

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Speaker 2: the local level, especially the states which got the regional

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Speaker 2: Hydrogen hob funding for the production side.

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Speaker 1: So we'll come to some of the conversation around technologies

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Speaker 1: and application, but I think it would be great for

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Speaker 1: us to actually continue to talk about this in terms

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Speaker 1: of what's happening in different parts of the world. So

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Speaker 1: can we next go to Asia as a continent, And

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Speaker 1: I know this is going to vary widely by country

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Speaker 1: by country, we zero in on, say Japan and Korea.

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Speaker 1: This was an area of the world that were early

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Speaker 1: proponents of hydrogen and actually looked at applications when it

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Speaker 1: came to cars and fuel cells since that was a

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Speaker 1: part of their early strategy. Do you see a bit

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Speaker 1: of a pivot to some of the other applications that

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Speaker 1: parts of the world have looked at, And what is

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Speaker 1: happening in Asia and how is their year head look

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Speaker 1: for hydrogen.

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Speaker 2: APEC is pretty interesting because, as you said, every country

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Speaker 2: has slightly different approach and on the policy wise, is

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Speaker 2: actually less sophisticated than the US and Europe in terms

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Speaker 2: of hydrogen policies. It's interesting to see how these countries

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Speaker 2: will actually push forward the hydrogen subsidies So far, if

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Speaker 2: you compare the subsidy level from APAC to the US,

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Speaker 2: and Europe is actually lagging behind for a lot. The

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Speaker 2: only trees that have implemented subsidy for hydrogens are India

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Speaker 2: and Australia, but they're tiny compared to the US are

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Speaker 2: A subsidies. The upcoming one that we're actually pretty excited

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Speaker 2: for is the potential subsidies in Japan. So Japan has

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Speaker 2: introduced a contract for different mechanisms similar to the one

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Speaker 2: that EU is implementing for clean molecule supply, including clean hydrogen,

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Speaker 2: so that would benefit both domestic supplier and overseas suppliers.

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Speaker 2: This will basically subsidize the cost difference between the cost

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Speaker 2: of importing clean hydrogen and the cost of producing or

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Speaker 2: using great HydroD domestically or fossil fuel. This is actually

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Speaker 2: quite a lot of money that the Japanese government is

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Speaker 2: putting into this mechanism, but it solely depends on whether

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Speaker 2: the government could actually raise that much money because this

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Speaker 2: pool of money is actually going to come from the

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Speaker 2: transition bonds that the government will be issuing. So depending

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Speaker 2: on whether there will be anybody buying transition bonds, it

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Speaker 2: would actually determine how much money will be available for

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Speaker 2: this pool of CFD subsidies. And then the other countries

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Speaker 2: that we are pretty optimistic about on hydrogen import is

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Speaker 2: South Korea. So similar to Japan, South Korea is actually

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Speaker 2: also thinking to import clean hydrogen or clean ammonia, mostly

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Speaker 2: for domestic power generation and a bit of transport. South

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Speaker 2: Korea is interesting because it's actually one of the few

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Speaker 2: countries in the world that implemented a usage manday, so

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Speaker 2: it's basically a mandate for the power sector for the

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Speaker 2: utilities to use a portion of clean hydrogen or clean

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Speaker 2: ammonia derived power from now to twenty thirty. So by

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Speaker 2: twenty thirty, the goal is for South Korea to consume

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Speaker 2: at least eight hundred thousand towns of clean hydrogen or

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Speaker 2: equivalent for power generations, so that it's quite a lot

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Speaker 2: of demand that they actually mandated for domestic utilities. South

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Speaker 2: Korea is a big steel manufacturing hub. They also have

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Speaker 2: plans to use hydrogen in the industrial particularly steel manufacturings.

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Speaker 2: So overall for Asia, we think South Korea and Japan

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Speaker 2: are the two markets that we're most excited about for

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Speaker 2: twenty twenty four.

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Speaker 1: And you would reference that in your This has been

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Speaker 1: a part of the world that has historically had favorable

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Speaker 1: policies on the books for hydrogen. And without going into

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Speaker 1: individual countries, let's talk a little bit about the European

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Speaker 1: Union and the year ahead and whether or not you

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Speaker 1: see more of those policies coming down the pipe.

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Speaker 2: Europe is really interesting because it's actually something that all

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Speaker 2: the other countries are looking after as kind of a

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Speaker 2: model in terms of hydrogen policies. And in Europe there's

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Speaker 2: actually quite a lot of policies, mandates, and subsidies that

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Speaker 2: they implemented to support hydrogen. But one thing that we

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Speaker 2: actually looking out for for twenty twenty four is the

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Speaker 2: clean hydrogen definition because right now in Europe they actually

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Speaker 2: hasn't really clarified any regulations around sort of the production

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Speaker 2: of clean hydrogen and blue hydrogen in particularly as well

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Speaker 2: as pink hydrogen. So a lot of people kind of

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Speaker 2: planning those kind of projects in Europe are worried that

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Speaker 2: those project might not get any support in you at

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Speaker 2: the end, So in twenty twenty four, we actually would

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Speaker 2: expect you to publish clear definition on how the emission

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Speaker 2: from producing low carbon hydrogen should be measured. So, for example,

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Speaker 2: right now EU has adopted a emission criteria of three

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Speaker 2: point three akg of COE to equivalent per kg of

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Speaker 2: hydrogen as the benchmark or criteria of low carbon hydrogen.

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Speaker 2: But EU hasn't really clarified like how those emissions should

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Speaker 2: be measured, whether leakage would be accounted. So those are

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Speaker 2: the things that the industry is actually looking out for

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Speaker 2: in twenty twenty four for the EU to actually clarify

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Speaker 2: the emission accounting methodology for clean hydrogen. And then another

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Speaker 2: thing on EU is that in addition to the EU level,

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Speaker 2: which already have run the first round of hydrogen auction

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Speaker 2: in late twenty twenty three and it is expected to

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Speaker 2: run another round of auction in twenty twenty four, a

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Speaker 2: lot of people are actually looking out for sort of

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Speaker 2: the member country level subsidies. For example, like Germany is

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Speaker 2: expected to launch its carbon contract with different schemes. Friends

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Speaker 2: is also running its own hydrogen auctions. So in addition

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Speaker 2: to the EU level a lot of people are looking

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Speaker 2: at for the member country level subsidies and auctions in

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Speaker 2: twenty twenty four.

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Speaker 1: So the hydrogen color wheel is something that people talk

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Speaker 1: about a lot. It's all of these different colors that

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Speaker 1: stand for the different technologies that we use to make

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Speaker 1: the non naturally occur during hydrogen. So be it blue

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Speaker 1: or pink or green, it all stands for something. But

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Speaker 1: really what I want to know about is in the

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Speaker 1: year head, which technologies are really going to come out

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Speaker 1: on top. So is it going to be the application

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Speaker 1: of CCS, which is largely coupled with colon gas. Is

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Speaker 1: it going to be green hydrogen produced from renewables, or

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Speaker 1: are we going to see a resurgence in the use

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Speaker 1: of nuclear which is referred to often as pink hydrogen.

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Speaker 1: What does it look like and what does that mix

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Speaker 1: look like from a technology standpoint in the year ahead.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So for CCS, it's interesting because EU right now,

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Speaker 2: you know, it's actually have a preference on green hydrogen

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Speaker 2: over blue because it wants to get rid of fossil

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Speaker 2: few use, so blue hydrogen is not particularly popular in EU.

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Speaker 2: The blue hydrogen actually only concentrated in a few countries

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Speaker 2: that actually have support on carbon capture. For example, the

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Speaker 2: US have the forty five Q subsidies on the carbon

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Speaker 2: capture and utilization and storage as well, so a lot

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Speaker 2: of those blue hydrogen projects are concentrated in the US

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Speaker 2: the UK as well. UK. Actually blue hydrogen would we

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Speaker 2: expect it would be the biggest source of clean hydrogen

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Speaker 2: by twenty thirty in year really depends on, as I

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Speaker 2: mentioned earlier, how the emission accounting methodology will comes down to.

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Speaker 2: For example, the emission accounting for clean hydrogen will account

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Speaker 2: for the upstream meat and leakage and all the other

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Speaker 2: upstream emission associated with blue hydrogen that would make blue

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Speaker 2: hydrogen really difficult to meet the emission criteria under the

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Speaker 2: EU Centard. And then in terms of pink hydrogen, it's

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Speaker 2: interesting because there's not a lot of countries in the

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Speaker 2: world that have the nuclear required to produce pink hydrogen.

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Speaker 2: So the few countries that have that could produce pink

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Speaker 2: hydrogen include the US friends for example in Europe and

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Speaker 2: in China, and South Korea is actually pretty cue with

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Speaker 2: the new presidency to explore pink hydrogen as well in Asia.

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Speaker 2: So those are only you know a few countries that

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Speaker 2: could produce clean hydrogen using nuclear and then in the EU,

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Speaker 2: it really depends whether again sort of the new emission

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Speaker 2: accounting methodologies that is counted in the US with the

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Speaker 2: IRA guideline, it actually required, as I mentioned earlier, additional

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Speaker 2: new build renewal boat to be coupled with the clean

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Speaker 2: hydrogen for it to qualify for the subsidies, which would

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Speaker 2: make it really difficult for pink hydrogen, which would most

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Speaker 2: likely use existing instead of no built nuclear as a

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Speaker 2: power source, would make it really difficult for it to

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Speaker 2: get them IRA subsidies. So you know, it really depends

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Speaker 2: on the policy regulation and emission accounting methodology under those

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Speaker 2: different countries whether this source of hydrogen will be qualified

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Speaker 2: for any subsidies going forward.

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Speaker 1: So next I want to talk about two of our

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Speaker 1: favorite hard to evate areas, shipping and aviation. We've spent

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Speaker 1: a lot of time thinking about the solutions for these

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Speaker 1: in the future, and one of them is hydrogen. Are

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Speaker 1: we seeing off take agreements that indicate that twenty twenty

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Speaker 1: four could be a really big year for application for

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Speaker 1: these two hard to abate sectors.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so we're actually pretty optimistic about this two sector

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Speaker 2: lifting the demand for hydrogen in the year ahead. This

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Speaker 2: two sector are under pretty tight regulation in the EU

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Speaker 2: for de carbonization. For example, that Refuel EU Aviation initiative

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Speaker 2: which mandated one point two percent of the fuel supply

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Speaker 2: to aircraft at the EU airport must be synthetic by

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Speaker 2: twenty thirty, so that would our estimate result in at

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Speaker 2: list zero point thirty five million tounds of green hydrogen

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Speaker 2: demand by twenty thirty. There's also the few EU maritime initiatives.

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Speaker 2: Similar to the aviation one, it mandates a shipping sector

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Speaker 2: to de carbonise following a fixed emission intensity target from

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Speaker 2: now to twenty fifty. So this carbon intensity target will

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Speaker 2: require the shipping companies to redeal fuel emission by two

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Speaker 2: percent by twenty twenty five, which would rise dramatically to

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Speaker 2: eighty percent by twenty fifty. And then in addition to

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Speaker 2: the few EU maritime initiative, we also have the EUETS,

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Speaker 2: which included the shipping sector into the ETS scheme last year,

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Speaker 2: so the shipping sector would have to pay carbon price

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Speaker 2: starting from this year and then full carbon price starting

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Speaker 2: from twenty twenty six. A lot of shipping companies are

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Speaker 2: actually under a lot of pressure to decarbonise, they are

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Speaker 2: looking for green fields globally trying to be compliant, so

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Speaker 2: that would actually drive a lot of demand as we

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Speaker 2: are already seen from the shipping and aviation sector. Just

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Speaker 2: to give you a couple of examples. For example, in

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Speaker 2: the aviation sector, Airfrance and Kelm and Delta signed eight

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Speaker 2: seven year sustainable aviation fuel off tack with a US

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Speaker 2: based synthetic fueld producer d G Fuels to make aviation

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Speaker 2: fuel using hydrogen. Merz, which is one of the biggest

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Speaker 2: European shipping company, also signed a binding off taic contract

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Speaker 2: with the Chinese developer Goldwin for a five hundred thousand

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Speaker 2: towns of methinode off take which will be using around

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Speaker 2: one hundred thousand towns of green hydrogen for those methino productions.

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Speaker 2: So this is actually one of the largest green methinoe

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Speaker 2: off take that we've seen so far, and this give

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Speaker 2: a lot of hopes to the whole industry, especially to

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Speaker 2: the countries with very cheap renewables and abundant biomass resources

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Speaker 2: such as China and potentially South America as well as

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Speaker 2: the Nordic country to actually step up to produce green

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Speaker 2: fields for the shipping sectors.

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Speaker 1: And on some of these ships are electrilyizers for other

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Speaker 1: parts of the world to make hydrogen. As we ship

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Speaker 1: the required equipment around the world, and we've got some

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Speaker 1: predictions for volumes of elect shipments in the airhead, what

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Speaker 1: are those.

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Speaker 2: For the shipment of electrializer, which is, you know, a

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Speaker 2: key component or equipment to produce green hydrogen. From twenty

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Speaker 2: twenty three to twenty twenty two, we saw shipment of

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Speaker 2: electrizer double going ahead in twenty twenty four. We expect

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Speaker 2: the shipment to continue to grow in twenty twenty four.

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Speaker 2: In our conservative scenario, the shipment in twenty twenty three

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Speaker 2: would be around one point seven gigawatt, and then we'd

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Speaker 2: expect that to double in twenty nwenty four to reach

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Speaker 2: around three point six gigawatt. But in terms of like

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Speaker 2: the exact amount whether in twenty twenty four would actually

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Speaker 2: achieve that double, it really depends on a lot of

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Speaker 2: different factors. We think there's a lot of certainties around

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Speaker 2: the exact shipment in the year had because there are

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Speaker 2: a couple of factors that could affect it, for example,

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Speaker 2: policies and also macroeconomic environments. And also sort of the

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Speaker 2: technical issue is a big one. The issue that the

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Speaker 2: technology like electrialized has been around for over fifty years

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Speaker 2: as a technology to be used in multiple sectors to

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Speaker 2: produce hydrogen on site, but those are mostly small scales.

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Speaker 2: In order to deploy those technology in a megawat scale,

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Speaker 2: you need to have technology improvement. And then we're actually,

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Speaker 2: we don't think the industry now is ready for this yet.

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Speaker 2: We've heard a lot of manufacturer having technical issues, so

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Speaker 2: we think this is something that industry have to fix

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Speaker 2: for the technology to be deployed in a larger scale.

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Speaker 2: So one of the key technical issues is the compatibility

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Speaker 2: with renewable power because in the past, electualizer is used

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Speaker 2: to getting stable power input from the greed, but now

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Speaker 2: if we want to couple that with renewable electricity, the

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Speaker 2: power input will be intermittent and that's something that the

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Speaker 2: manufacturer has to figure out.

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Speaker 1: And now let's talk about interest rates, which are raising

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Speaker 1: costs for power projects all over the world, and when

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Speaker 1: it comes to hydrogen, do we think we're going to

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Speaker 1: end up seeing the impact of these higher interest rates

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Speaker 1: in auctions? And the reason that I asked this is

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Speaker 1: so often we're looking for cost declines in hydrogen projects,

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Speaker 1: So will this be a year where essentially the costs

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Speaker 1: go up and will we see that in the auctions.

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Speaker 2: So it's actually something that we've observed in the past

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Speaker 2: year in a couple of the auctions around the world

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Speaker 2: that the production costs that produce a bit for is

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Speaker 2: actually much higher than we expected. For example, in the

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Speaker 2: first auction that UK run in twenty twenty three, the

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Speaker 2: cost is actually much higher than we estimated, mostly because

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Speaker 2: of a couple of factors. For example, the rising equipment costs,

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Speaker 2: rising electricity costs, additional grid connection cost you know, alongside

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Speaker 2: with a couple of other factors that push up the

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Speaker 2: cost by at least six to seven dollars package So

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Speaker 2: this is pretty significant. We think that the auction plan

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Speaker 2: in twenty twenty four are likely to be affected by

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Speaker 2: higher costs as well. There are a couple of auctions

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Speaker 2: that we are closely watching al four, such as the

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Speaker 2: second EU Hydrogen Bank auction that will supposedly happen in

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Speaker 2: spring twenty twenty four. The UK and Idland would also

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Speaker 2: have its second hydrogen auction. Friends in Germany, as I

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Speaker 2: mentioned before, would also have its hydrogen tender Japan as well,

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Speaker 2: as I mentioned earlier, would have its CFD schemed launched

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Speaker 2: this summer as well. So there are a lot of

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Speaker 2: auctions that we're watching alpha in twenty twenty four. I

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Speaker 2: think it remains an outstanding question whether this kind of

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Speaker 2: higher cost will be applied to all the markets in

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Speaker 2: the world. It really depends on sort of the subsidy

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Speaker 2: and auction mechanism design as well. For example, in the EU,

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Speaker 2: you wear some sectors face quotas or mandates to buy

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Speaker 2: clean hydrogen. This would create demand and also willingness to

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Speaker 2: pay for the green premiums amount the buyers. In that case,

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Speaker 2: then the bidding price in Europe might be lower than

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Speaker 2: the UK because the buyers are willing to pay to

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Speaker 2: count the cost. As I mentioned, some other countries that

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Speaker 2: have a different bidding mechanism might see a lower bidding

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Speaker 2: costs as well. This happened in the Denmark auction in

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Speaker 2: late twenty twenty three, and then also the Indian auction

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Speaker 2: that we've seen results just came out in Gen twenty

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Speaker 2: twenty four also saw a pretty low bidding price, like

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Speaker 2: some bidders actually bid zero in the auction, which is

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Speaker 2: quite interesting. So we think in those countries where the

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Speaker 2: lowest bidder would get the subsidy first, in such a mechanism,

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Speaker 2: the bidders would tend to underbid to be able to

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Speaker 2: get into the auction. So in that case, the overall

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Speaker 2: bidding price might be lower than we expect, whereas in

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Speaker 2: countries like Japan as well as the UK, where the

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Speaker 2: government just subsidized the cost difference between gray a green hydrogen,

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Speaker 2: the prize difference would actually be quite high.

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Speaker 1: Kathy, thank you very much for joining us today from

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Speaker 1: Hong Kong to talk about what's happening in the year

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Speaker 1: ahead in the world of hydrogen.

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Speaker 2: Thank you, Dana.

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