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Speaker 3: Very difficult to keep the line between the past and place.

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Speaker 4: You believe someone out of the past and turn to

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Speaker 4: take possession of a living being.

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Speaker 2: We may be true with the past, but the past

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Speaker 2: is not true with us. Welcome to the Next Picture Show,

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Speaker 2: a Movie the Week podcast to go to a classic

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Speaker 2: film and how it shaped our thoughts on a recent release.

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Speaker 2: I'm Scott Tobias here.

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Speaker 5: With Keith Pipps and Tasha Robinson.

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Speaker 2: Our absent co host Jenvievkoski is out covering up various

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Speaker 2: felonies from her past, but she'll have it all cleaned

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Speaker 2: up for next time. This week, we're discussing two movies

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Speaker 2: about long term relationships potentially unraveling due to a secret

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Speaker 2: from one partner's past. All three of us have wonderful

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Speaker 2: long term partners ourselves, and I don't think we're worried

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Speaker 2: too much about dark revelations from their past, but you

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Speaker 2: definitely make discoveries about them after you're committed. For example,

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Speaker 2: my wife always puts the toilet paper roll on with

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Speaker 2: the under orientation. I don't think she cares either way,

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Speaker 2: but at this point I think she's doing it just

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Speaker 2: to troll me. What about you, all, any petty grievances

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Speaker 2: that you discovered deep into your relationship that you could

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Speaker 2: get out of.

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Speaker 1: My wife and daughter both do that with but with

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Speaker 1: the paper towel roll beneath Our sinc which for someone

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Speaker 1: of my of my height, it actually is kind of

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Speaker 1: hard on my back to bend all the way down

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Speaker 1: to get the rolled rolled under one. Beyond that, they

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Speaker 1: also a bout the shared habit of things like you

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Speaker 1: know how if you buy a large yogurt container and

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Speaker 1: it has like the plastic container like plastic element on top, right,

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Speaker 1: you throw that away? Right? You throw it away?

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Speaker 3: Oh? Absolutely, just that's the first thing you do.

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Speaker 1: Or like thour cream, right, you throw it away?

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Speaker 3: Right?

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Speaker 6: No, really, I peel it back and keep it on

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Speaker 6: because it helps form an air seal that keeps, like

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Speaker 6: you know, moisture and stuff outside out. I have not

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Speaker 6: consulted with your wife and daughter about this, but I

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Speaker 6: strongly suspect if they leave it on, that's what they're doing.

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Speaker 2: That's what the lid is for.

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Speaker 3: It's a lid.

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Speaker 1: The lid's there for that, I think it is. Well,

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Speaker 1: here's here's another one. All right, So a plastic container

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Speaker 1: like you know, mixed nuts. Right, you rip off the

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Speaker 1: thing at the top, right, it has a seam, You

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Speaker 1: rip it off, and then you have the ziplock thing.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 1: Sure, what do you do with the thing that you

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Speaker 1: rip do?

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Speaker 3: You do?

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Speaker 1: You pull it off and throw it away, or you

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Speaker 1: kind of leave it hanging there.

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Speaker 6: It's like a hanging chad. I mean, it's just remind

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Speaker 6: us of one of our best elections. Honestly, to me,

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Speaker 6: that depends entirely on.

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Speaker 1: How how clean it depends depends throw it away.

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Speaker 6: I will, I mean if I if it comes off,

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Speaker 6: I'll throw it away. But if it doesn't come off,

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Speaker 6: I will not. Some of those, some of those like

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Speaker 6: tear off top block bag things I have like a

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Speaker 6: little perforation and and they rip easy. And some of

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Speaker 6: them you got to go get a scissors. If I've

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Speaker 6: got to get to get a scissors for it, the

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Speaker 6: whole thing's coming off.

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Speaker 5: If I have to.

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Speaker 6: Spend like more than a minute tearing into it and

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Speaker 6: it doesn't come off, I'm not going to go fetch

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Speaker 6: the scissors to to finish it off. I just don't

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Speaker 6: care that much.

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Speaker 2: Sorry, Keith, Wow, you got anything to add to this

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Speaker 2: exciting conversation?

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Speaker 6: They're toad sure, I mean, if we're if we're talking

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Speaker 6: the pettiest, this is pretty petty. But see now I'm

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Speaker 6: curious whether Keith's like, well, of course that's the way

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Speaker 6: you do it. I use all the toilet paper, and

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Speaker 6: then I recycle the cardboard tube. I use all the

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Speaker 6: paper towel, and then I recycle the cardboard tube. My

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Speaker 6: husband will just kind of like tear it down to

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Speaker 6: there's some left and throw the whole thing away. And

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Speaker 6: it bugs me on a very low level, because that

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Speaker 6: is a recyclable thing. Similarly, like any food that comes

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Speaker 6: in glass jars, like any sauce or pickles or like

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Speaker 6: anything like that, I will rinse the glass.

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Speaker 5: Jar out and put in the recycle.

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Speaker 6: He will fling in the garbage can without a second thought.

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Speaker 1: That's well good. But I will say that the one

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Speaker 1: I'm with you, Tasha, except the toilet paper roll, I

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Speaker 1: usually just toss in the bathroom trash because there's no

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Speaker 1: recycling upstairs. I had to carry it all the way downstairs.

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Speaker 1: It seems like a lot of effort for something that's

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Speaker 1: not going ton't contribute that much to the preservation of

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Speaker 1: the environment. But I I agree with you in spirit anyway.

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Speaker 6: In the end, it's going to be one one paper

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Speaker 6: towel role. Like Wally is going to be up there

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Speaker 6: atop a huge pile of trash and he's going to

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Speaker 6: point to a toilet paper, cardboard tube and be like

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Speaker 6: this is the one that did the one.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, all right, wow, sorry advance.

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Speaker 6: Oh for dooming here and sending humanity to space.

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Speaker 2: Okay, So now that we have all of that offer, chess,

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Speaker 2: let's talk about some couples who are dealing with potentially

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Speaker 2: larger problems. U, Tasha, I want to tell us about

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Speaker 2: this week's pairing.

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Speaker 4: Sure.

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Speaker 6: In Christopher Borgley's controversial new movie, The Drama Zendeia and

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Speaker 6: Robert Pattison star is an engaged couple whose relationship is

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Speaker 6: thrown into turmoil when the bride to be on corks

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Speaker 6: a shocking revelation from her past. From there, the two

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Speaker 6: struggle to make it to their wedding because it's uncertain

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Speaker 6: whether the husband to be can live with the secret

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Speaker 6: long term. The sudden transformation of their relationship calls to

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Speaker 6: mind David Cronenberg's two thousand and five thriller A History

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Speaker 6: of Violence starring Vigo Mortensen and Maria Bellow as a

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Speaker 6: married couple from small town Indiana who are forced to

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Speaker 6: reckon with a husband's past after he easily thwarts an

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Speaker 6: armed robbery attempt at his diner. Both films wonder how

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Speaker 6: much the past imprints on the present, and whether a

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Speaker 6: loving relationship can survive such a dramatic upheaval.

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Speaker 2: So this week, your Midwestern host will explore the spicy

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Speaker 2: goings on of a rural Indiana town in a history

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Speaker 2: of violence. Then we'll head to the big city next

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Speaker 2: week for the Drama, a film that teaches you to

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Speaker 2: never ever ask the question what's the worst thing you've

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Speaker 2: ever done at a drunken get together because the answer

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Speaker 2: may not be as fun as you imagine.

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Speaker 4: Stay with us, where is Jaredoff a minor?

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Speaker 7: Don't miss the return of Marvel Television's Daredevil Born Again?

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Speaker 3: So what's nice?

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Speaker 7: I believe we're gonna take this city back of the

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Speaker 7: mad in an all new season now streaming on Disney Plus.

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Speaker 5: They're hunning us. It's time we started hunting them.

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Speaker 3: I can work with that.

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Speaker 5: It should be tons of fun.

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Speaker 7: Marble Televisions Daredevil I'm Born Again l streaming only on

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Speaker 7: Disney Plus.

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Speaker 3: They were gonna kill us. We saved our lives.

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Speaker 1: Hello.

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Speaker 6: My hero Tom stall is a family man with long

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Speaker 6: standing ties to this community.

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Speaker 1: Right now, this community rallying behind him.

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Speaker 8: We're calling him a hero.

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Speaker 5: Great more reporters.

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Speaker 7: Look like reporters.

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Speaker 3: You're the big hero.

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Speaker 7: Really you don't like donk man it Sir, sure took

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Speaker 7: care of those too.

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Speaker 3: Bad man.

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Speaker 4: Joey, my name is Tom, Joey.

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Speaker 7: You tell me Sarah.

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Speaker 1: Sarah, my daughter wears she what's going on?

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Speaker 4: Dad?

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Speaker 5: They thought they knew me.

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Speaker 7: I thought somebody else.

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Speaker 3: Nothing to worry about, missus Stall. I've been watching over.

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Speaker 7: I don't know what you want.

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Speaker 5: I really care.

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Speaker 7: You should care about what I want because of what

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Speaker 7: I want might change your life.

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Speaker 1: Why don't you ask Tom?

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Speaker 7: May ask him how come he's so good at killing people.

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Speaker 2: At the end of Martin Scorsese's Taxi Driver and spoiler

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Speaker 2: alert here for the end of this fifty year old movie,

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Speaker 2: Travis Bickle, the unhinged title character played by Robert de Niro,

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Speaker 2: has survived a violent melee in which he's killed a

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Speaker 2: lot of terrible people, including a pimp who had control

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Speaker 2: over an underage girl. But earlier in the film, Travis

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Speaker 2: had planned to assassinate a politician after his attempted romance

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Speaker 2: with a campaign staffer went south. In an ironic bit

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Speaker 2: of social commentary, Scorsese and screenwriter Paul Schrader closed the

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Speaker 2: film with a letter from the girl's grandparents thanking Travis

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Speaker 2: for saving their granddaughter. Travis is treated like a hero

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Speaker 2: in the press and society at large, but it never

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Speaker 2: really mattered to him whether he murdered a pimp or

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Speaker 2: a politician. He was always going to crack, and he

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Speaker 2: may do so again. It's in his nature. David Cronenberg's

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Speaker 2: A History of Violence opens with an act of violence

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Speaker 2: that draws similar headlines. Vigo Mortensen plays Tom Stall, the

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Speaker 2: proprietor of a diner in a small Midwestern town. One evening,

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Speaker 2: a couple of armed men in the middle of a

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Speaker 2: killing spree attempt to rob the diner, terrorizing a handful

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Speaker 2: of patrons of the process. Tom tries to diffuse the situation,

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Speaker 2: but as the threat escalates, he wipes the men out

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Speaker 2: and a couple of conspicuously expert moves. He's dubbed a

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Speaker 2: hero by the local press, but the media attention brings

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Speaker 2: an even more imposing figure to town named Carl Fogerty,

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Speaker 2: played by Ed Harris, a Philly based gangster who refers

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Speaker 2: to him as Joey Cusack. The two men have an

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Speaker 2: unsettled history together, and Tom can no longer hide from it.

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Speaker 2: Working from a graphic novel by John Wagner and Vince Locke,

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Speaker 2: Cronenberg allows Tom's pass to merge with his present and

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Speaker 2: sinister and insinuating ways. Tom's wife, Edie, didn't know much

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Speaker 2: about him when they married. In fact, in a sweet

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Speaker 2: and sexy scene toward the beginning, the two of them

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Speaker 2: play act as t teenagers, with Edie dressing as a cheerleader,

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Speaker 2: pretending that her parents are in the next room. She's

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Speaker 2: repulsed by Fogerty, as she should be, and wants to

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Speaker 2: believe her husband's line to the press that quote any

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Speaker 2: wood would have done what he did in that situation.

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Speaker 2: Yet as the situation between Tom and Fogerty darkens, she

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Speaker 2: cannot deny the obvious truth that her husband isn't the

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Speaker 2: man she thought she married, and the trickle effect impacts

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Speaker 2: their teenage son, Jack too, a shy, picked upon kid

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Speaker 2: who seems to suddenly inherit a new way to confront

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Speaker 2: a school bully. The big imposing question of history of

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Speaker 2: violence is simply who is this man? We learn that

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Speaker 2: he was once a deadly henchman named Joey Cusack who's

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Speaker 2: been hiding out in Indiana as a good natured family

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Speaker 2: man named Tom Stall. But to what extent has he

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Speaker 2: succeeded in plotting a new identity for himself. He undoubtedly

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Speaker 2: loves Edie and Jack and would have lived out the

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Speaker 2: rest of his days as Tom Stall if fate hadn't intervened.

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Speaker 2: Does that mean he's become the part he's been playing

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Speaker 2: or is the violence from his past the true, irreversible

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Speaker 2: core of his nature. He tries to clean up the

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Speaker 2: mess involving Fogerty and his kingpin brother Ritchie played by

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Speaker 2: William Hurt back in Philly, but it's like a stain

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Speaker 2: that can never fully be wiped away. He may want

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Speaker 2: to return to the way things were, but it's hard

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Speaker 2: for his family to pretend they don't know anything. Edie

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Speaker 2: and Jack have changed too. The Stall family is something

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Speaker 2: different now, and their future seems ominous. Kronenberg is known

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Speaker 2: for being a specialist in bodyhore films, where psychological stresses

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Speaker 2: manifest themselves physically. At first Blush, a pulpy thriller like

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Speaker 2: A History of Violence seems like a change of pace

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Speaker 2: for him because it's seemingly so straightforward and in such

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Speaker 2: an unfamiliar genre, yet broadly speaking, Cronenberg's movies are about

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Speaker 2: violent transformation. This is a film about transformation through violence.

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Speaker 2: We generally accept thrillers about showdowns involving tough guys like

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Speaker 2: Fogerty and the Q Sex without ever being asked to

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Speaker 2: reflect on their actions. Cronenberg gives the audience a plot

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Speaker 2: that's very similar in that regard, but deeply unsettling in

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Speaker 2: its points of emphasis. We can't get away with thinking

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Speaker 2: about the history of violence as being a bloody entertainment

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Speaker 2: anymore than Joey Cusack get away with being Tom Stall.

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Speaker 2: We have to think about our relationship to violence and

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Speaker 2: our relationship to the types of stories that Cronenberg is telling.

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Speaker 2: We'll talk more about it after the break.

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Speaker 1: What's better than that?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's good coffee, Thank you, sir.

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Speaker 1: Oh define coffee. That's good in Philadelphia.

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Speaker 3: I want to thank you for the coffee. Joey really

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Speaker 3: is very good.

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Speaker 2: So, as I say in the keynote of history of

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Speaker 2: violence is plotted like a pulpy action thriller, but it

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Speaker 2: feels completely different from other movies of its kind.

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Speaker 3: Why do you think that is?

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Speaker 2: And you know what stands out to you about this movie?

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Speaker 6: I mean, to some degree up until the finale, the

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Speaker 6: violence is almost sheepish. It's it's like I kept thinking

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Speaker 6: of funny games and everything that Michael Honaka said about

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Speaker 6: basically could just kind of wanting shame people for wanting

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Speaker 6: to watch violence in movies. That movie is just kind

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Speaker 6: of a big wagging finger saying like, how dare you

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Speaker 6: how dare you look forward to seeing people get hurt?

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Speaker 6: How dare you find that thrilling? And here Cronaberg doesn't

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Speaker 6: allide over the violence, but especially in the diner sequence,

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Speaker 6: it all happens very quickly, and it's not shot like

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Speaker 6: we expect movie.

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Speaker 5: Violence to be shot.

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Speaker 6: You know, there isn't big exciting music, we don't dwell

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Speaker 6: on it, there's not a whole lot of choreography. And

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Speaker 6: then afterwards Mortensen just plays so sheepish and awkward and

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Speaker 6: embarrassed and not wanting to deal with any of the

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Speaker 6: things people are feeling about him that it just kind

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Speaker 6: of like makes us all feel a little bit squirmy

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Speaker 6: about like, how should we feel about this? And then

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Speaker 6: the second big act of violence is traumatic for everybody,

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Speaker 6: and you know you have to sort of come to

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Speaker 6: terms with how you feel about it. And then the

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Speaker 6: final one kind of pays off. Well that's not dealing

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Speaker 6: with the stairs one, but that's a huge can of

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Speaker 6: worms to unpack separately. But the final one in another movie,

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Speaker 6: say John Wick, which this has some very superficial relationship with,

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Speaker 6: that sequence would go on for fifteen minutes and involve

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Speaker 6: twenty seven stunt coordinators and a lot of explosions, and

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Speaker 6: you know, here it's just kind of quick and dirty

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Speaker 6: and almost feels like real violence in that it's just

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Speaker 6: very abrupt and not lingered on. So this movie's relationship

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Speaker 6: with violence is a lot more utilitarian then you think

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Speaker 6: of action thrillers built around violence being.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's upsetting. I mean I think that's I mean, well,

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Speaker 1: I mean, to give back to your original question, I

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Speaker 1: think the quick answer is it's the David Cronenberg film,

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Speaker 1: so it's going to have different textures, different concerns that

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Speaker 1: another director taking on this same material. But I think

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Speaker 1: it's everything is you know, kind of gauge to be

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Speaker 1: really unsettling and upsetting. It's not a horror movie, but

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Speaker 1: there is kind of horror movie shock and swort of

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Speaker 1: willingness to go to the gory places, the gory aftermath

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Speaker 1: of violence in a way that not all thrillers with

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Speaker 1: the same basic plot outline would go to. And it's

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Speaker 1: also less so in the final confrontation. But it's violence

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Speaker 1: taking place in places where violence doesn't usually happen too.

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Speaker 1: I mean, a small town diner is not a place

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Speaker 1: that has this kind of shootout or altercation. I guess

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Speaker 1: it's probably a better or word for it. It's just,

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Speaker 1: you know, it's a nice American small town like with

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Speaker 1: the mythology of that kind of turned up to the

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Speaker 1: max in many ways, which makes the arrival of these

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Speaker 1: big city gangsters, to say nothing of the more low

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Speaker 1: level criminals who put everything in motion with their arrival,

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Speaker 1: it makes it all that much more shocking.

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Speaker 6: Did you find yourself thinking of our recent revisitation of

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Speaker 6: From Dusk Till Dawn at any point with this opening duo?

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Speaker 1: I didn't, but I can definitely see it now.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I'll will get down that in a

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Speaker 2: little bit, because I do find that way into the

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Speaker 2: movie to be kind of fascinating. But I think broadly speaking,

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Speaker 2: it's the points of emphasis that make this movie work because,

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Speaker 2: like I said, inly you know what I mean, you

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Speaker 2: could plot this movie out, you could describe the plot

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Speaker 2: of this movie and it feels like almost a standard

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Speaker 2: issue kind of a thriller. But the way Conenberg shoots it,

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Speaker 2: the way that it immediately has you reflecting on the

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Speaker 2: mystery of this guy who has committed this act of

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Speaker 2: violence in his diner to defend his patrons, you enter

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Speaker 2: a reflective mo that you never enter in a movie

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Speaker 2: like John Wick who just like, okay that this is

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Speaker 2: just entertaining, this is this is just a bloody good time,

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Speaker 2: which is kind of what why kind of brought up

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Speaker 2: you know, Taxi Driver in my keynote because you know,

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Speaker 2: Taxi Driver is a movie where, uh, you know, in

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Speaker 2: the end, Travis Bickel is seen as you know, a

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Speaker 2: hero because he ends up killing the right person, right

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Speaker 2: I mean, and I guess that's what Tom tom situation

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Speaker 2: is here too. But like you know, Travis is a killer,

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Speaker 2: does that mean mean that Tom is not Tom, That

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Speaker 2: that that Tom is really Joey and uh and he

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Speaker 2: can never not be Joey.

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Speaker 3: Who is this man?

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Speaker 6: I guess before we dive too much into the who

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Speaker 6: is Tom who is Joey question, I want to go

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Speaker 6: back and look at a couple of things you said.

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Speaker 6: One is that he owns the diner I did, Keith,

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Speaker 6: did you get that impression? I thought he just worked

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Speaker 6: there in.

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Speaker 1: The dolls called dolls, So yes, fair enough.

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Speaker 5: I definitely miss that detail.

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Speaker 6: And second, our relationship with violence in cinema is such

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Speaker 6: that I just didn't really see what he did as

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Speaker 6: feeling that extraordinary. He doesn't do anything super flashy. Basically,

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Speaker 6: he's a very efficient but it's not like he shows

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Speaker 6: off like tremendous martial arts skills or anything. And watching

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Speaker 6: the way people react to it, and especially kind of

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Speaker 6: like the slow build of the story afterwards, I think

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Speaker 6: he's just a really interesting way of approaching cinematic violence,

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Speaker 6: because in part, it's almost like it's trying to recalibrate

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Speaker 6: for us. It's trying to remind us that this kind

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Speaker 6: of response to an emergency is not necessarily a common one.

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Speaker 6: And I kind of feel like that's what a lot

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Speaker 6: of the stuff with his son in the locker room

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Speaker 6: in particular is trying to model is just to remind

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Speaker 6: us that, you know, kick ass like skills with weapons

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Speaker 6: and respond to an emergency by murdering all of the

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Speaker 6: bad guys is not necessarily a normal, average response, even

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Speaker 6: though we've seen a million million movies at this point.

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Speaker 2: I think in this specific case, though, he has to

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Speaker 2: do it right. I mean, these are actual killers who

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Speaker 2: have come into his diner, who would who he correctly

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Speaker 2: assesses would do mortal harm to you know, the people

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Speaker 2: in that space, because I mean it is obviously a

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Speaker 2: tremendous risk that he is aware of. You know, he's trying.

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Speaker 2: He knows who he is, and he wants to keep

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Speaker 2: a low profile. But he's just in a situation where

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Speaker 2: that that isn't possible, and so he takes that step

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Speaker 2: of actually wiping them out.

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Speaker 5: Oh for sure.

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Speaker 6: I'm just saying the way Cronenberg shoots it, you know,

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Speaker 6: kind of getting back to my idea of like almost

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Speaker 6: sheepish downplayed violence is like again going back to john Wick,

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Speaker 6: Like if this had been a John Wick movie, that

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Speaker 6: fight would have been a lot flashier and would have

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Speaker 6: involved you know, some of those guns flying up into

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Speaker 6: the air and being caught behind the back and spun

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Speaker 6: around before or before they were fired or whatever. Like,

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Speaker 6: I had to be told by the characters in the

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Speaker 6: movie that it was remarkable the way he responded.

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Speaker 2: That's interesting to me because that was not my response

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Speaker 2: at all at all to that opening, really, because I

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Speaker 2: felt like, it's not going to be like showing that

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Speaker 2: respect where it's where it's low motion gunplay. I think

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Speaker 2: that would be a completely wrong choice for that sequence.

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Speaker 2: But I think that you do need to at least

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Speaker 2: see that what Tom is capable of doing, of basically

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Speaker 2: getting the better of two men who are armed and

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Speaker 2: who are killers, is something that a normal person isn't

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Speaker 2: capable of doing, you know, as much as he can.

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Speaker 2: He protests on the news that hey, it's just anybody

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Speaker 2: would do this in that same situation. It's like, no,

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Speaker 2: nobody's you know, there are people who are capable of

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Speaker 2: doing it, and those people are not regular guys.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I think the difference is that you can't say it's

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Speaker 1: not stylized, because everything's stylized, but there's no beauty to it.

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Speaker 1: It's just kind of no quick and dirty and brutal

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Speaker 1: and ugly.

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Speaker 6: And this isn't a criticism of the way he handles it,

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Speaker 6: or you know, I'm certainly not trying to imply that

440
00:22:09,600 --> 00:22:12,600
Speaker 6: there's something I would change here. I just think for

441
00:22:12,640 --> 00:22:15,760
Speaker 6: me at least, it sets up an interesting tension between

442
00:22:15,880 --> 00:22:18,600
Speaker 6: what we're used to seeing in movies versus what we

443
00:22:18,640 --> 00:22:22,080
Speaker 6: see here, and then how we're used to I guess

444
00:22:22,160 --> 00:22:24,200
Speaker 6: this is where I was bringing in Funny Games, how

445
00:22:24,200 --> 00:22:27,000
Speaker 6: we're used to responding to it, or used to being

446
00:22:27,000 --> 00:22:29,600
Speaker 6: told we should respond to it, versus how we're being

447
00:22:29,600 --> 00:22:32,359
Speaker 6: told we should respond to it here with sort of

448
00:22:32,440 --> 00:22:38,000
Speaker 6: a queasy fascination slash repulsion at somebody who's capable of

449
00:22:38,560 --> 00:22:43,240
Speaker 6: capable of killing, like even in defense of other people's

450
00:22:43,520 --> 00:22:48,240
Speaker 6: lives and safety. The response that people have is just

451
00:22:48,840 --> 00:22:52,080
Speaker 6: it feels maybe closer to real life, you know, than

452
00:22:52,119 --> 00:22:56,480
Speaker 6: to most movie violence, but also almost even exaggerated a little.

453
00:22:56,280 --> 00:22:57,200
Speaker 5: Bit for real life.

454
00:22:57,280 --> 00:22:59,840
Speaker 6: I guess in this day and age.

455
00:23:00,200 --> 00:23:02,199
Speaker 2: It's interesting, though, I mean, I guess the difference between

456
00:23:02,359 --> 00:23:05,600
Speaker 2: Kronenberg and Heneck's movie is that there's no kind of

457
00:23:05,880 --> 00:23:08,280
Speaker 2: self conscious shaming of the audience in the same way

458
00:23:08,280 --> 00:23:11,040
Speaker 2: that there is in Funny Games, Like that doesn't really happen.

459
00:23:11,080 --> 00:23:14,800
Speaker 2: There's more just a more motive of reflection that is

460
00:23:14,840 --> 00:23:17,440
Speaker 2: happening here that kind of sets the film apart well

461
00:23:17,480 --> 00:23:21,800
Speaker 2: while while still in both cases, you know, maintaining that

462
00:23:21,880 --> 00:23:24,360
Speaker 2: thriller at tension that we're familiar with, it's just done

463
00:23:24,440 --> 00:23:25,760
Speaker 2: in an unfamiliar way.

464
00:23:26,400 --> 00:23:27,159
Speaker 6: Yeah, I agreed.

465
00:23:27,280 --> 00:23:29,080
Speaker 2: So what about like the big question of the movie

466
00:23:29,119 --> 00:23:32,040
Speaker 2: about like, you know, to what extent does Tom Stall

467
00:23:32,320 --> 00:23:34,520
Speaker 2: exist in any point in this movie? I mean, has

468
00:23:34,680 --> 00:23:37,600
Speaker 2: his Joey been playing the role of Tom long enough

469
00:23:37,600 --> 00:23:40,439
Speaker 2: to become him to a certain extent? Or is this

470
00:23:40,440 --> 00:23:44,000
Speaker 2: some sort of aspiration that he was always going to

471
00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:45,720
Speaker 2: be unachievable for him.

472
00:23:46,160 --> 00:23:50,560
Speaker 6: I don't like this question because I think people are

473
00:23:50,680 --> 00:23:55,040
Speaker 6: more complicated than that. I mean, it becomes I guess

474
00:23:55,119 --> 00:23:57,040
Speaker 6: easy in this case where he's literally taken on a

475
00:23:57,040 --> 00:24:00,800
Speaker 6: different name. But I don't think he's one of those

476
00:24:00,840 --> 00:24:05,560
Speaker 6: things or the other. Like I think everybody's history informs them, everybody,

477
00:24:05,840 --> 00:24:08,760
Speaker 6: you know, hence the title the History of Violence. And

478
00:24:09,520 --> 00:24:12,440
Speaker 6: you know, I don't know, how would you feel if

479
00:24:12,880 --> 00:24:17,679
Speaker 6: you know, somebody like looked at you, like working in

480
00:24:17,680 --> 00:24:21,560
Speaker 6: that movie theater in your what twenties and said, who

481
00:24:21,640 --> 00:24:23,920
Speaker 6: is the real Scott to Bias? Is he that guy,

482
00:24:24,080 --> 00:24:26,439
Speaker 6: or is he the guy who's like he's a father

483
00:24:26,600 --> 00:24:29,560
Speaker 6: now and he does this podcast. He wasn't either of

484
00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:31,520
Speaker 6: those things back then. Which one of these two guys

485
00:24:31,560 --> 00:24:34,720
Speaker 6: is he really you know, like it's a continuum.

486
00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:38,640
Speaker 1: I think the important distinction is that he's not hiding

487
00:24:38,680 --> 00:24:42,359
Speaker 1: out as Tom. He really wants to be Tom. And

488
00:24:42,400 --> 00:24:45,680
Speaker 1: he has that line like we really don't get a

489
00:24:45,720 --> 00:24:48,640
Speaker 1: sense of how he got to where he is. There's

490
00:24:48,680 --> 00:24:50,640
Speaker 1: one line like I spent three years in the desert

491
00:24:50,800 --> 00:24:53,160
Speaker 1: becoming him, and it's and we don't really get more

492
00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:55,040
Speaker 1: than that, but you really do get to feel this

493
00:24:55,080 --> 00:24:58,040
Speaker 1: as someone who's trying to make a profound change in

494
00:24:58,080 --> 00:25:01,080
Speaker 1: his life for whatever reason. We don't really even get

495
00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:04,840
Speaker 1: that either, you know, we don't we don't get uh.

496
00:25:05,040 --> 00:25:08,240
Speaker 1: It sounds like his his you know, confrontation with with

497
00:25:08,359 --> 00:25:10,959
Speaker 1: Carl was at the moment he said goodbye to the

498
00:25:11,119 --> 00:25:15,359
Speaker 1: gangster life he was leading in Philadelphia. But we don't

499
00:25:15,359 --> 00:25:17,560
Speaker 1: really we I think he had kind of assume that

500
00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:20,080
Speaker 1: it's a moral choice that he wants to be a

501
00:25:20,119 --> 00:25:23,760
Speaker 1: better person, unless Tom, you know, unless it really is

502
00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:27,320
Speaker 1: just that thick of a mask that he feels the

503
00:25:27,400 --> 00:25:30,600
Speaker 1: need to hide behind being a family man and being

504
00:25:31,160 --> 00:25:33,280
Speaker 1: a good person for the for all the world say,

505
00:25:33,359 --> 00:25:35,560
Speaker 1: it's a really fascinating movie on the on that On

506
00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:36,240
Speaker 1: that front, I.

507
00:25:36,119 --> 00:25:40,120
Speaker 6: Think I also just think that some of what it's

508
00:25:40,160 --> 00:25:44,679
Speaker 6: communicating is that you never really know exactly what's you know,

509
00:25:44,760 --> 00:25:46,439
Speaker 6: what's behind another person's eyes.

510
00:25:47,080 --> 00:25:49,600
Speaker 5: Like you see him do things.

511
00:25:49,320 --> 00:25:53,440
Speaker 6: That that Tom wouldn't be capable of, but that's because

512
00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:56,680
Speaker 6: he has this history. You know, you see him kind

513
00:25:56,680 --> 00:26:01,560
Speaker 6: of readon his Joey persona when he needs it. But

514
00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:04,040
Speaker 6: I don't think that that means, you know, that Tom

515
00:26:04,119 --> 00:26:07,199
Speaker 6: doesn't exist. I don't think that he's you know, at

516
00:26:07,200 --> 00:26:10,560
Speaker 6: one point Edie asks him something about whether he's like

517
00:26:10,760 --> 00:26:15,399
Speaker 6: a Skitzo more multiple personality person or some weird wording

518
00:26:15,520 --> 00:26:17,919
Speaker 6: like that, And I just don't think it's that complicated.

519
00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:20,879
Speaker 6: Like I do think he authentically wants to be Tom,

520
00:26:21,520 --> 00:26:24,520
Speaker 6: but I also think that he's been Tom for a

521
00:26:24,640 --> 00:26:28,439
Speaker 6: long time, and I just I don't see it as

522
00:26:28,520 --> 00:26:31,480
Speaker 6: as simple as like this is just something he's pretending

523
00:26:31,560 --> 00:26:34,560
Speaker 6: to be, Like it going back to Joey doesn't seem

524
00:26:35,440 --> 00:26:37,800
Speaker 6: natural in any way. It doesn't seem like he's like,

525
00:26:38,359 --> 00:26:41,320
Speaker 6: you know, dropping this very fake mask and becoming who

526
00:26:41,320 --> 00:26:43,960
Speaker 6: he really was all along. He I don't know. He

527
00:26:44,080 --> 00:26:47,199
Speaker 6: just seems so like weary and sad to have been

528
00:26:47,320 --> 00:26:51,199
Speaker 6: dragged back into that life and so reluctant, like this

529
00:26:51,280 --> 00:26:54,240
Speaker 6: is not the reaction. This is you know, John Wick

530
00:26:54,280 --> 00:26:57,080
Speaker 6: in a theory, and a lot of other like recent

531
00:26:57,200 --> 00:27:01,399
Speaker 6: characters modeled on him seem most believed to kind of

532
00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:05,800
Speaker 6: like shuck off the domestic trappings. And there's a long,

533
00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:09,560
Speaker 6: long history of you know, Murder's rampage movies where a

534
00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:13,280
Speaker 6: mad Max loses his wife and or children and then

535
00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:16,480
Speaker 6: runs a muck killing everybody in sight, and there's often

536
00:27:16,520 --> 00:27:19,160
Speaker 6: just sort of a feeling of like, but at least

537
00:27:19,200 --> 00:27:21,760
Speaker 6: I finally got to give in and cut loose and

538
00:27:21,800 --> 00:27:24,520
Speaker 6: become the person that I really am under the surface.

539
00:27:24,560 --> 00:27:27,320
Speaker 6: I don't sense any of that here. It just really

540
00:27:27,359 --> 00:27:30,639
Speaker 6: feels like he's like, man, I reformed, I built a

541
00:27:30,680 --> 00:27:33,040
Speaker 6: life that I believe in, Like, why are you taking

542
00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:33,639
Speaker 6: that away from me?

543
00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:36,360
Speaker 1: If this were two thousand, if we're doing this podcast

544
00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:39,439
Speaker 1: in two thousand and five, I would push hard to

545
00:27:39,480 --> 00:27:41,960
Speaker 1: pair this movie with Unforgiven, because I feel like there's

546
00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:45,160
Speaker 1: a lot of conversation between those two two movies, whether

547
00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:48,160
Speaker 1: intentional or not in the Cronenberg film.

548
00:27:48,240 --> 00:27:51,120
Speaker 2: But the think about I guess maybe there's something specific

549
00:27:51,359 --> 00:27:54,479
Speaker 2: though about being a killer. You see this other movie too,

550
00:27:54,480 --> 00:27:57,000
Speaker 2: you see, like a movie like Kill Bill, like that

551
00:27:57,080 --> 00:28:00,159
Speaker 2: speech that Bill gives to be a Trix at the

552
00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:01,840
Speaker 2: end of the movie about Superman and you know, and

553
00:28:01,880 --> 00:28:06,000
Speaker 2: about you know, there's something about how we are making

554
00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:10,960
Speaker 2: a discovery about Tom Slash Joey's true nature, and once

555
00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:13,639
Speaker 2: that part of him comes out, once the killer inside

556
00:28:13,720 --> 00:28:16,920
Speaker 2: him comes out, you know, it can't be put back

557
00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:19,920
Speaker 2: in the box. Like his behavior changes, the relationship that

558
00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:23,240
Speaker 2: he has with his family changes. When he tries to

559
00:28:23,320 --> 00:28:27,639
Speaker 2: restore order and return to the fold, the terms have

560
00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:31,280
Speaker 2: completely changed because everyone has learned something about him and

561
00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:35,640
Speaker 2: something there's just something, you know, it can't be pretended anymore.

562
00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:38,320
Speaker 2: That's a fundamental to his nature. I think there's something

563
00:28:38,880 --> 00:28:41,200
Speaker 2: about him being a killer, not just not so it

564
00:28:41,240 --> 00:28:44,800
Speaker 2: becomes more less a question of how Scott Tobias theater

565
00:28:44,920 --> 00:28:46,920
Speaker 2: Usher may have changed over the years. There's something about

566
00:28:46,920 --> 00:28:51,920
Speaker 2: actually killing people for a job that becomes inescapable.

567
00:28:52,080 --> 00:28:56,120
Speaker 6: I think, yeah, murdering people for fun, as we're told

568
00:28:56,120 --> 00:28:59,880
Speaker 6: that Joey wants did or being in a theaterisher basically

569
00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:00,480
Speaker 6: same thing.

570
00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:05,200
Speaker 2: I think, speaking of murdering people for fun, this is

571
00:29:05,440 --> 00:29:09,080
Speaker 2: That's a definitely a great segue. But I'm so fastined

572
00:29:09,080 --> 00:29:11,160
Speaker 2: by the opening of this movie. It's so shocking at

573
00:29:11,160 --> 00:29:14,160
Speaker 2: this this motel. I wanted to hear what you all

574
00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:16,920
Speaker 2: made of that sequence in one of the film's unusual

575
00:29:16,960 --> 00:29:21,800
Speaker 2: decision to introduce these killers first before getting to our hero.

576
00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:24,720
Speaker 1: Well, I think if the film that's are exploring the

577
00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:28,880
Speaker 1: nature of violence, what violence means, why people commit it,

578
00:29:29,760 --> 00:29:32,600
Speaker 1: to open with this ugliest one of the ugliest possible

579
00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:34,560
Speaker 1: things you could put in a movie, which is somebody

580
00:29:34,720 --> 00:29:39,200
Speaker 1: killing an innocent child and someone who seemingly both these

581
00:29:39,280 --> 00:29:42,720
Speaker 1: characters seem incapable of regret, incapable of having any conscience

582
00:29:43,040 --> 00:29:45,880
Speaker 1: if they lived. They're not leading to any I don't

583
00:29:45,880 --> 00:29:48,479
Speaker 1: think they're leading lives that are going to push them

584
00:29:48,520 --> 00:29:51,760
Speaker 1: towards any sort of need to start over, like Tom

585
00:29:51,840 --> 00:29:54,240
Speaker 1: slash Joey Feels. I mean, these are just these are

586
00:29:54,720 --> 00:29:57,520
Speaker 1: scummy people. These are the lowest of the low. And

587
00:29:57,560 --> 00:30:00,240
Speaker 1: I say that with great respect for the actors, Greig

588
00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:03,040
Speaker 1: Brick and especially Stephen Macati, one of my favorite character

589
00:30:03,120 --> 00:30:06,720
Speaker 1: actors who's awesome in this movie, but you know, they're

590
00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:08,080
Speaker 1: both very good at playing low lives.

591
00:30:08,720 --> 00:30:10,520
Speaker 6: I feel like part of the setup here, I mean,

592
00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:13,360
Speaker 6: part of it is just establishing the stakes, because once

593
00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:17,760
Speaker 6: we get embedded in small town Indiana, like flashing back

594
00:30:17,840 --> 00:30:22,440
Speaker 6: to these unrelated characters, would you just like interrupt the flow,

595
00:30:22,840 --> 00:30:25,320
Speaker 6: interrupt the sense of character and the sense of story

596
00:30:25,360 --> 00:30:26,200
Speaker 6: that we're building up.

597
00:30:26,520 --> 00:30:27,320
Speaker 5: But it is, It's a.

598
00:30:27,240 --> 00:30:30,920
Speaker 6: Great way of setting the mistakes. It also, funnily enough,

599
00:30:31,680 --> 00:30:35,840
Speaker 6: since the motel sequence is just so leisurely and an

600
00:30:36,040 --> 00:30:40,240
Speaker 6: unrushed and unthrillery. Again, we're not hearing like a lot

601
00:30:40,240 --> 00:30:44,440
Speaker 6: of like driving mood music and seeing a lot of

602
00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:47,760
Speaker 6: like you know, choppy, exciting, editing, and most of the

603
00:30:47,800 --> 00:30:50,960
Speaker 6: violence happens no, I guess all of the violence happens

604
00:30:50,960 --> 00:30:55,080
Speaker 6: on off screen. We just see the results of it

605
00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:58,000
Speaker 6: in a couple of cases and then you know, the

606
00:30:58,040 --> 00:31:00,440
Speaker 6: gun firing, but we don't see what happen happens as

607
00:31:00,440 --> 00:31:03,920
Speaker 6: a result, we're left to imagine the worst. All of

608
00:31:03,960 --> 00:31:07,520
Speaker 6: this helps set the stakes for like how ruthless these

609
00:31:07,560 --> 00:31:10,120
Speaker 6: men are, and it kind of has a lot in

610
00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:13,760
Speaker 6: common with you know, the netflix driven philosophy today of

611
00:31:13,800 --> 00:31:16,440
Speaker 6: like you gotta whatever you're getting it, you gotta do it,

612
00:31:16,520 --> 00:31:19,920
Speaker 6: like in the first scene in order to hook them in.

613
00:31:20,440 --> 00:31:24,320
Speaker 6: This is like that thinking combined with just like a

614
00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:31,000
Speaker 6: slow roll, leisurely like character driven mentality, you know, just

615
00:31:31,400 --> 00:31:35,280
Speaker 6: a long, long shot the moment where one of them

616
00:31:35,280 --> 00:31:37,920
Speaker 6: tells the other like pull the car up to the

617
00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:40,280
Speaker 6: office and gives them the keys, and then there's a

618
00:31:40,280 --> 00:31:43,280
Speaker 6: whole little like silent exchange between them with a lot

619
00:31:43,320 --> 00:31:46,120
Speaker 6: of looks and exchanging the keys, and then the younger

620
00:31:46,120 --> 00:31:49,160
Speaker 6: guy gets in the car and drives it like literally

621
00:31:49,280 --> 00:31:50,160
Speaker 6: maybe twenty feet.

622
00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:53,560
Speaker 5: Like this is very low key comedy.

623
00:31:54,080 --> 00:31:56,880
Speaker 6: So it's like if anybody, if you describe this movie

624
00:31:56,880 --> 00:31:59,240
Speaker 6: to somebody and you were like, well, it starts with

625
00:31:59,280 --> 00:32:03,760
Speaker 6: these two criminal at a motel and they murder three people,

626
00:32:03,800 --> 00:32:05,240
Speaker 6: one of them is a small child.

627
00:32:05,520 --> 00:32:06,800
Speaker 5: They definitely would.

628
00:32:06,520 --> 00:32:09,720
Speaker 6: Not picture the way this actually rolls out in time.

629
00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:13,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I like what Keith was saying too

630
00:32:13,840 --> 00:32:18,320
Speaker 2: about establishing these characters who are not like Tom right.

631
00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:21,360
Speaker 2: I mean they that that these are people who are

632
00:32:21,360 --> 00:32:23,880
Speaker 2: part of the criminal world for sure. I mean they're

633
00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:27,719
Speaker 2: they're on a spree of of robberies and murders, but

634
00:32:28,160 --> 00:32:31,560
Speaker 2: there's no other level to them. I mean, there is

635
00:32:31,640 --> 00:32:34,360
Speaker 2: no chance that they it's not it's not within them

636
00:32:34,400 --> 00:32:37,440
Speaker 2: to even try to do what Tom Slash Joey is

637
00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:41,080
Speaker 2: doing in Indiana. So so maybe there's a purpose in that,

638
00:32:41,120 --> 00:32:42,920
Speaker 2: But I do I do kind of like that sort

639
00:32:42,960 --> 00:32:47,440
Speaker 2: of you know, side winding, back door ish way of

640
00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:50,520
Speaker 2: getting into the movie. And it almost has that sense

641
00:32:51,040 --> 00:32:52,760
Speaker 2: as we as we know here in the Midwest of

642
00:32:52,800 --> 00:32:55,920
Speaker 2: a storm coming to town, you know, just like things

643
00:32:55,920 --> 00:32:59,000
Speaker 2: happening on the outside of this of this uh small

644
00:32:59,160 --> 00:33:02,120
Speaker 2: idyllic place, or that things are gonna get dark and

645
00:33:02,160 --> 00:33:03,760
Speaker 2: the tornadoes are going to strike. And it just kind

646
00:33:03,760 --> 00:33:06,480
Speaker 2: of is that effect as a movie. And I'm also

647
00:33:07,040 --> 00:33:10,080
Speaker 2: mesurmised as you you are, Tasha by the car driving

648
00:33:10,120 --> 00:33:12,160
Speaker 2: out not very far and I think it feels to

649
00:33:12,200 --> 00:33:13,880
Speaker 2: me like it feels to me like a like a

650
00:33:13,920 --> 00:33:17,360
Speaker 2: tracking shot but a car in car form, uh, just

651
00:33:17,440 --> 00:33:18,960
Speaker 2: kind of because of the slowness of it and it

652
00:33:19,080 --> 00:33:22,120
Speaker 2: kind of moving on that straight line down towards the office.

653
00:33:22,160 --> 00:33:25,040
Speaker 3: But really an incredible sequence.

654
00:33:25,360 --> 00:33:27,240
Speaker 1: Well, one other point before you move on is they're

655
00:33:27,240 --> 00:33:29,840
Speaker 1: they're not small town people, like we don't know a

656
00:33:29,880 --> 00:33:32,200
Speaker 1: whole lot about where they're from. But you know, they

657
00:33:32,200 --> 00:33:34,320
Speaker 1: do know that they're they're they're keeping to the small

658
00:33:34,360 --> 00:33:36,160
Speaker 1: towns as they get from where they are from to

659
00:33:36,360 --> 00:33:38,840
Speaker 1: where they're they're going. I mean, these are these are

660
00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:42,200
Speaker 1: it's an outside element. These are not small town Indianas

661
00:33:42,480 --> 00:33:46,680
Speaker 1: were in Hugias rather but you know, apologies to the

662
00:33:46,680 --> 00:33:47,360
Speaker 1: State of Indiana.

663
00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:51,080
Speaker 2: They call themselves indian They've never called themselves Hoosiers Keith.

664
00:33:51,120 --> 00:33:52,640
Speaker 2: Only Indianas is the correct.

665
00:33:52,960 --> 00:33:54,080
Speaker 1: No, I don't think.

666
00:33:56,080 --> 00:33:56,440
Speaker 3: Indiana.

667
00:33:56,760 --> 00:33:59,600
Speaker 1: I'm messing with the State of Indian State of Indiana.

668
00:33:59,200 --> 00:34:01,320
Speaker 6: As sort of a little point to that. I mean,

669
00:34:01,480 --> 00:34:05,360
Speaker 6: in between kind of the introduction of those characters and

670
00:34:05,400 --> 00:34:08,800
Speaker 6: the reintroduction of those characters, we get the whole business

671
00:34:08,840 --> 00:34:13,360
Speaker 6: going on with Tom's son, who you know, being the

672
00:34:13,760 --> 00:34:17,840
Speaker 6: the dastardly like force of evil he is, catches a

673
00:34:17,880 --> 00:34:21,920
Speaker 6: pop fly and you know, gets an out in baseball

674
00:34:22,040 --> 00:34:28,000
Speaker 6: against a swaggering blowhard of a teenager who you know,

675
00:34:28,200 --> 00:34:30,920
Speaker 6: thinks he he deserves he deserves a home run and

676
00:34:30,960 --> 00:34:33,279
Speaker 6: how dare anybody stop him? So there's the whole, like

677
00:34:33,960 --> 00:34:36,319
Speaker 6: you know, threatening scene in the locker room where he's

678
00:34:36,320 --> 00:34:40,920
Speaker 6: trying to provoke Tom's son to violence, and this is

679
00:34:40,960 --> 00:34:44,399
Speaker 6: just kind of like another window. I feel like part

680
00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:47,440
Speaker 6: of what we're seeing is, like we set up in

681
00:34:47,480 --> 00:34:50,960
Speaker 6: the beginning here is how these two criminals approach violence

682
00:34:51,360 --> 00:34:55,520
Speaker 6: very casually and very ruthlessly. They kill people without a

683
00:34:55,560 --> 00:34:58,759
Speaker 6: thought for a little money, or in the case of

684
00:34:58,880 --> 00:35:01,880
Speaker 6: killing the child, just not to leave a witness behind, presumably.

685
00:35:01,960 --> 00:35:04,280
Speaker 6: And then we see a completely different approach to violence,

686
00:35:04,320 --> 00:35:08,040
Speaker 6: which is trying to avoid it at any cost whatsoever. So,

687
00:35:08,160 --> 00:35:11,839
Speaker 6: having set the kind of the stakes like way way

688
00:35:11,920 --> 00:35:14,399
Speaker 6: lower into is there going to be a fist fight

689
00:35:14,440 --> 00:35:16,600
Speaker 6: in the locker room instead of how many people are

690
00:35:16,600 --> 00:35:20,400
Speaker 6: going to get murdered, we then have a confrontation in

691
00:35:20,440 --> 00:35:23,719
Speaker 6: the street between those two criminals and the bully, and

692
00:35:23,760 --> 00:35:28,759
Speaker 6: the bully just immediately senses something and backs down, And

693
00:35:29,040 --> 00:35:32,080
Speaker 6: it's just sort of a reminder of like, this is

694
00:35:32,120 --> 00:35:34,960
Speaker 6: the level of violence that goes on around here. Is

695
00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:37,239
Speaker 6: somebody trying to provoke a fist fight and not getting it.

696
00:35:37,800 --> 00:35:40,080
Speaker 6: This is the level of violence that is being introduced

697
00:35:40,160 --> 00:35:41,000
Speaker 6: into this place.

698
00:35:41,280 --> 00:35:42,040
Speaker 5: What will happen now?

699
00:35:42,280 --> 00:35:44,759
Speaker 2: You You know what film does that incredibly well is

700
00:35:44,800 --> 00:35:46,880
Speaker 2: Blue Velvet. Do you remember, if you'll recall, that's that

701
00:35:47,000 --> 00:35:51,279
Speaker 2: sequence where they get the bullies going the school bully's stock,

702
00:35:51,320 --> 00:35:54,600
Speaker 2: school bullies going after Kyle maclachlan's character, and then they

703
00:35:54,680 --> 00:35:58,080
Speaker 2: encounter and they encounter a whole lot of things that

704
00:35:58,120 --> 00:36:00,960
Speaker 2: they are absolutely unprepared to deal with and sort of

705
00:36:01,160 --> 00:36:03,000
Speaker 2: peace out. So I think that there is that sense

706
00:36:03,000 --> 00:36:07,480
Speaker 2: of like, okay, we were, we know when a real

707
00:36:07,520 --> 00:36:10,600
Speaker 2: threat arives rather than a more ana dyne, you know,

708
00:36:10,760 --> 00:36:15,000
Speaker 2: midwestern school bully threat. Much different category there, for sure.

709
00:36:15,320 --> 00:36:16,760
Speaker 2: But it does kind of bring me to this question

710
00:36:16,760 --> 00:36:18,920
Speaker 2: because we are talking We have talked about Tom a

711
00:36:18,960 --> 00:36:23,480
Speaker 2: little bit, but what about Tom's transformation and this information

712
00:36:23,520 --> 00:36:26,440
Speaker 2: that his family starts to learn, his wife and his

713
00:36:26,520 --> 00:36:29,920
Speaker 2: son learn about him. How does this affect their behavior?

714
00:36:29,920 --> 00:36:33,120
Speaker 2: How does this how does this change their perspective and

715
00:36:33,680 --> 00:36:35,520
Speaker 2: their way of handling things?

716
00:36:36,040 --> 00:36:38,879
Speaker 6: I mean, honestly, we moved on along past this kind

717
00:36:38,880 --> 00:36:41,719
Speaker 6: of quickly because I made the joke about being a

718
00:36:41,760 --> 00:36:44,200
Speaker 6: mass murder and being a theater rusher being kind of

719
00:36:44,200 --> 00:36:46,719
Speaker 6: the same thing. But when you were setting up that

720
00:36:46,800 --> 00:36:50,880
Speaker 6: question originally you said something about how being a killer

721
00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:54,560
Speaker 6: is different because once it comes out, like he kind

722
00:36:54,560 --> 00:36:56,480
Speaker 6: of has to be that person again because all of

723
00:36:56,520 --> 00:36:59,400
Speaker 6: these people like know who he is now and I

724
00:36:59,640 --> 00:37:03,680
Speaker 6: have a star resistance to that. My honest thought there was, well,

725
00:37:03,680 --> 00:37:07,160
Speaker 6: that's on them, and I think it's so fascinating when

726
00:37:07,920 --> 00:37:11,160
Speaker 6: Edie confronts him in the hospital and he admits that

727
00:37:11,239 --> 00:37:16,359
Speaker 6: he is Joey and she instantly reflexively starts vombiting his

728
00:37:16,480 --> 00:37:20,640
Speaker 6: wife and son. To me, seem very fragile, and I

729
00:37:20,640 --> 00:37:22,560
Speaker 6: think that that's something we're going to talk a little

730
00:37:22,600 --> 00:37:24,399
Speaker 6: about a little bit more in the next half when

731
00:37:24,400 --> 00:37:27,200
Speaker 6: we get to connections, because I think it's very true

732
00:37:27,200 --> 00:37:30,280
Speaker 6: of the drama as well. There's just so little room

733
00:37:30,880 --> 00:37:34,640
Speaker 6: for violence in their lives and their worldview. It doesn't

734
00:37:34,680 --> 00:37:37,319
Speaker 6: seem to just be the fact that you know, this

735
00:37:37,400 --> 00:37:39,880
Speaker 6: man they thought they knew had lied to them, although

736
00:37:39,880 --> 00:37:41,799
Speaker 6: of course that is a big part of it. But

737
00:37:42,400 --> 00:37:49,400
Speaker 6: to me, their responses seem both incredibly incurious and incredibly unforgiving,

738
00:37:49,440 --> 00:37:51,319
Speaker 6: and that part of that is just you know that

739
00:37:51,360 --> 00:37:55,880
Speaker 6: we're seeing a very heightened movie version of this response.

740
00:37:56,280 --> 00:37:58,880
Speaker 6: But I remember when I first saw this movie having

741
00:37:59,239 --> 00:38:03,320
Speaker 6: this kind of response to of just just feeling sympathy

742
00:38:03,440 --> 00:38:08,880
Speaker 6: for Tom and thinking that his wife and kid, you know,

743
00:38:09,000 --> 00:38:11,759
Speaker 6: need to take a few deep breaths and then maybe

744
00:38:11,840 --> 00:38:14,799
Speaker 6: have a conversation instead of reacting in some of the

745
00:38:14,800 --> 00:38:19,000
Speaker 6: ways they do. As to what the long term results are,

746
00:38:19,400 --> 00:38:23,440
Speaker 6: we don't know, and I think that's great. Like I

747
00:38:23,719 --> 00:38:25,280
Speaker 6: kind of love where this movie ends.

748
00:38:25,440 --> 00:38:28,600
Speaker 1: Do you want a little bit of vomit trivia?

749
00:38:29,280 --> 00:38:31,760
Speaker 6: When I want a little bit of vomit trivia?

750
00:38:32,080 --> 00:38:34,680
Speaker 1: I learned from the audio commentary for this film is

751
00:38:34,840 --> 00:38:37,360
Speaker 1: so they built that the hospital room is a set, right,

752
00:38:37,560 --> 00:38:41,360
Speaker 1: and they didn't build a bathroom for it. But Bella,

753
00:38:41,560 --> 00:38:43,759
Speaker 1: Maria Bella, had the idea of doing the vomiting thing,

754
00:38:43,760 --> 00:38:46,000
Speaker 1: and Cronenberk really liked it. So they had to like

755
00:38:46,040 --> 00:38:49,760
Speaker 1: quick facet a hurry build like the just the parts

756
00:38:49,800 --> 00:38:53,919
Speaker 1: of a hospital bathroom that would be on camera, which

757
00:38:53,960 --> 00:38:56,040
Speaker 1: I appreciate that kind of flexibility, you know, I mean

758
00:38:56,080 --> 00:38:59,080
Speaker 1: Creditbreks are very controlled director. But what you learned from

759
00:38:59,120 --> 00:39:00,719
Speaker 1: this is that there's a lot of like sort of

760
00:39:00,760 --> 00:39:04,760
Speaker 1: like discovering stuff on the day, which you would necessarily expect.

761
00:39:05,120 --> 00:39:07,320
Speaker 1: But you know, in some way it's kind of impossible

762
00:39:07,360 --> 00:39:11,719
Speaker 1: to judge their reactions except until that final scene, which

763
00:39:11,760 --> 00:39:15,560
Speaker 1: is incredibly ambiguous, and I don't know what the future

764
00:39:15,680 --> 00:39:19,600
Speaker 1: is there. As with a lot of the film, I

765
00:39:19,640 --> 00:39:22,520
Speaker 1: think how it's short and Cronenberg's films in general. I

766
00:39:22,560 --> 00:39:25,160
Speaker 1: think how it's Shure's score is doing a lot of

767
00:39:25,280 --> 00:39:27,720
Speaker 1: work to kind of set the tone, but the tone

768
00:39:27,760 --> 00:39:29,759
Speaker 1: is also kind of hard to read based on the

769
00:39:29,840 --> 00:39:32,920
Speaker 1: music and and what you're seeing on there. On the commentary,

770
00:39:33,000 --> 00:39:35,600
Speaker 1: to stay on the commentary a little bit, Croneberg refers

771
00:39:35,640 --> 00:39:40,120
Speaker 1: to a weird hopefulness about about that final scene, and uh,

772
00:39:40,200 --> 00:39:42,359
Speaker 1: you know, obviously he doesn't the director hasn't the last

773
00:39:42,400 --> 00:39:44,680
Speaker 1: word about it about about their work. But I kind

774
00:39:44,680 --> 00:39:46,440
Speaker 1: of that's kind of how I read it too. You know,

775
00:39:46,520 --> 00:39:49,160
Speaker 1: this this might work out after all, there might be

776
00:39:50,120 --> 00:39:53,680
Speaker 1: you know, he gets a plate. Everyone's terrified of him, apparently,

777
00:39:53,760 --> 00:39:55,880
Speaker 1: but they still got to play the play to the

778
00:39:55,920 --> 00:39:58,359
Speaker 1: dinner table and perhaps, uh.

779
00:39:58,040 --> 00:40:01,840
Speaker 2: Well, how he's a killer though, right, I don't I

780
00:40:02,080 --> 00:40:04,440
Speaker 2: find the find the end of the film. It is ambiguous.

781
00:40:04,440 --> 00:40:06,080
Speaker 2: I'm not going to say that it's one way or

782
00:40:06,120 --> 00:40:10,080
Speaker 2: the other, but I am. I find myself tremendously unsettled

783
00:40:10,520 --> 00:40:12,319
Speaker 2: by the end of that film. And the fear that

784
00:40:12,360 --> 00:40:15,480
Speaker 2: you mentioned Keith is the emotion that sticks with me,

785
00:40:15,560 --> 00:40:18,360
Speaker 2: not any other emotion. The notion of like, oh, this

786
00:40:18,360 --> 00:40:21,439
Speaker 2: this guy who we can't really defy who's come back

787
00:40:21,600 --> 00:40:24,120
Speaker 2: to claim my spot at the at the dinner table.

788
00:40:24,120 --> 00:40:25,839
Speaker 3: There's an aggression wow to.

789
00:40:25,800 --> 00:40:29,480
Speaker 6: That, Oh my god, you read that scene so differently

790
00:40:29,520 --> 00:40:30,239
Speaker 6: from the way I read it.

791
00:40:30,239 --> 00:40:32,399
Speaker 1: That I think they're both is the thing. I think

792
00:40:32,640 --> 00:40:35,320
Speaker 1: the film was itself to either to both readings. You

793
00:40:35,320 --> 00:40:37,360
Speaker 1: can kind of hold them both and like, you know,

794
00:40:37,800 --> 00:40:39,120
Speaker 1: tossing around in your mind a little bit.

795
00:40:39,480 --> 00:40:41,759
Speaker 6: I mean, I'm I'm definitely going to have to sit

796
00:40:41,840 --> 00:40:44,640
Speaker 6: with you. I definitely do not think that that their

797
00:40:44,719 --> 00:40:47,880
Speaker 6: response is we're all scared of you. I took the

798
00:40:47,880 --> 00:40:51,760
Speaker 6: little girl's response to be I don't know how mom

799
00:40:51,840 --> 00:40:53,960
Speaker 6: and my big brother are going to respond to this,

800
00:40:54,360 --> 00:40:57,520
Speaker 6: but I'm I still love my daddy, and I'm inviting

801
00:40:57,520 --> 00:40:59,279
Speaker 6: you to sit down at the table. And then I

802
00:40:59,320 --> 00:41:03,279
Speaker 6: see the son responds because if the sun was terrified

803
00:41:03,440 --> 00:41:09,520
Speaker 6: of him, he would be keeping his eye on his dad. Instead,

804
00:41:09,600 --> 00:41:12,399
Speaker 6: he keeps like looking to Edie to see how she's

805
00:41:12,440 --> 00:41:15,560
Speaker 6: gonna respond. And when he puts the roast over in

806
00:41:15,560 --> 00:41:17,520
Speaker 6: front of his dad, it is not with the air

807
00:41:17,560 --> 00:41:21,120
Speaker 6: of somebody, you know, like giving a peace offering to

808
00:41:21,640 --> 00:41:24,319
Speaker 6: a rabid dog, or like try to distract him it's

809
00:41:24,360 --> 00:41:26,640
Speaker 6: with the air of I don't know if I'm going

810
00:41:26,719 --> 00:41:29,200
Speaker 6: to get in trouble for this, but this is I'm

811
00:41:29,239 --> 00:41:31,160
Speaker 6: going to make a small statement about how I.

812
00:41:31,040 --> 00:41:32,160
Speaker 5: Feel about this situation.

813
00:41:33,080 --> 00:41:36,239
Speaker 6: And then Tom just sits there and looks at Edie,

814
00:41:36,560 --> 00:41:38,719
Speaker 6: and Eddie looks up and the make eye contact, and

815
00:41:38,760 --> 00:41:44,440
Speaker 6: I everything about him says, you know, sheepish, sad dog

816
00:41:44,840 --> 00:41:47,719
Speaker 6: like limping home to the person who beat it. You know,

817
00:41:47,840 --> 00:41:53,680
Speaker 6: I see a man that's just wild, completely uh throwing

818
00:41:54,040 --> 00:41:57,560
Speaker 6: himself at her mercy, you know, saying I effectively, I

819
00:41:57,600 --> 00:41:58,000
Speaker 6: know you have.

820
00:41:57,960 --> 00:41:58,920
Speaker 5: The right to refuse me.

821
00:41:59,000 --> 00:42:00,960
Speaker 6: Here, is that what you're gonna do?

822
00:42:01,120 --> 00:42:02,960
Speaker 5: And then we we end without knowing.

823
00:42:03,480 --> 00:42:06,680
Speaker 2: I think that almost concludes what I believe is also

824
00:42:06,760 --> 00:42:08,960
Speaker 2: a completely different way that we're reading the other stuff

825
00:42:09,000 --> 00:42:11,120
Speaker 2: in the film, Datcha, because you talk about the you

826
00:42:11,160 --> 00:42:14,880
Speaker 2: talk about the reaction of his wife and son as

827
00:42:14,960 --> 00:42:18,680
Speaker 2: being fragile, and I don't see that at all. I

828
00:42:18,719 --> 00:42:22,000
Speaker 2: feel like I feel like the very moral foundation of

829
00:42:22,040 --> 00:42:25,160
Speaker 2: this family has just been kicked away, like in the

830
00:42:25,160 --> 00:42:28,839
Speaker 2: house is crumbling down around them. That everything they kind

831
00:42:28,840 --> 00:42:32,239
Speaker 2: of understand about how to handle conflict, about about who

832
00:42:32,280 --> 00:42:35,480
Speaker 2: this person is, that this this uh who's who's been

833
00:42:35,520 --> 00:42:37,080
Speaker 2: in their home. It was it was it was the

834
00:42:37,640 --> 00:42:40,840
Speaker 2: patriarch of this family is not the person that that

835
00:42:40,920 --> 00:42:45,480
Speaker 2: who they thought he was. It completely throws them for

836
00:42:45,480 --> 00:42:48,880
Speaker 2: a loop and it impacts their behavior in extremely profound ways.

837
00:42:49,200 --> 00:42:51,959
Speaker 2: I mean, the two most striking examples, of course, being

838
00:42:52,520 --> 00:42:55,600
Speaker 2: how the son handles the bully, you know, and the

839
00:42:55,680 --> 00:42:59,759
Speaker 2: and the tremendous amount of violence that he unexpectedly unleashes

840
00:42:59,760 --> 00:43:02,239
Speaker 2: on this kid who's been tormenting him, which is not

841
00:43:02,280 --> 00:43:05,200
Speaker 2: in his character at all. And then in the sex

842
00:43:05,239 --> 00:43:07,480
Speaker 2: scene that the second sex scene that we get on

843
00:43:07,560 --> 00:43:11,560
Speaker 2: the stairs with Edie, where she is sort of coming

844
00:43:11,600 --> 00:43:15,120
Speaker 2: to terms in this in this very physical way of

845
00:43:15,520 --> 00:43:18,279
Speaker 2: you know, much different kind of sexual partnership, something that

846
00:43:18,360 --> 00:43:21,799
Speaker 2: is both that feels, you know, both exciting and on

847
00:43:21,840 --> 00:43:23,680
Speaker 2: the edge of a rape as well. It's a very

848
00:43:23,680 --> 00:43:27,720
Speaker 2: disturbing sequence, you know, because you feel like she's trying

849
00:43:27,760 --> 00:43:31,200
Speaker 2: to sort out on the fly her feelings about this

850
00:43:31,239 --> 00:43:35,080
Speaker 2: guy who is kind of a stranger now in their home.

851
00:43:35,600 --> 00:43:37,279
Speaker 2: So so I don't know, I feel like I feel

852
00:43:37,280 --> 00:43:40,280
Speaker 2: like it's I think once that revelation is once is introduced,

853
00:43:40,280 --> 00:43:43,360
Speaker 2: and once Tom is not Tom anymore, or is revealed

854
00:43:43,360 --> 00:43:45,239
Speaker 2: to be someone else. You know that the film is

855
00:43:45,239 --> 00:43:48,759
Speaker 2: almost permanently sort of knocked off its bearings with regard

856
00:43:48,840 --> 00:43:49,600
Speaker 2: to these characters.

857
00:43:50,000 --> 00:43:53,120
Speaker 6: I absolutely agree there. I will say that both I

858
00:43:53,640 --> 00:43:56,000
Speaker 6: want to unpack both of those scenes separately because I

859
00:43:56,040 --> 00:43:58,600
Speaker 6: think they're both really really key to what the movie

860
00:43:58,719 --> 00:44:03,040
Speaker 6: is saying and doing, and probably kind of to earn interpretations.

861
00:44:03,440 --> 00:44:07,279
Speaker 6: I will say that both of those sequences I like

862
00:44:07,320 --> 00:44:11,760
Speaker 6: a lot more as responses than either the vomiting or

863
00:44:12,360 --> 00:44:16,600
Speaker 6: his son the whole like sullen rant about you know

864
00:44:17,200 --> 00:44:19,840
Speaker 6: if I if I it like something like if I

865
00:44:19,840 --> 00:44:22,000
Speaker 6: start dealing drugs at school? Or are you gonna rub

866
00:44:22,080 --> 00:44:24,080
Speaker 6: me out if I don't give you a cut? Or

867
00:44:24,120 --> 00:44:29,279
Speaker 6: something like that. In some ways, the son Jack is

868
00:44:29,520 --> 00:44:32,840
Speaker 6: kind of a weird movie kid. There were a couple

869
00:44:32,840 --> 00:44:34,719
Speaker 6: of points where I stopped and wrote things down because

870
00:44:34,719 --> 00:44:39,279
Speaker 6: I'm like, who is this teenager that like cannot wait

871
00:44:39,360 --> 00:44:41,960
Speaker 6: to have tea with his mother and thinks like the

872
00:44:41,960 --> 00:44:43,840
Speaker 6: coolest thing in the world would be his dad on

873
00:44:43,960 --> 00:44:47,759
Speaker 6: Larry King Live. Like, I don't know this is this

874
00:44:47,840 --> 00:44:50,239
Speaker 6: is a very odd teenager.

875
00:44:50,560 --> 00:44:53,080
Speaker 1: I think Ashton Holmes is very good in this performance,

876
00:44:53,120 --> 00:44:55,440
Speaker 1: but I think this movie was made a few years

877
00:44:55,719 --> 00:44:58,640
Speaker 1: too soon for Jesse Eisenberg to be the obvious person

878
00:44:58,600 --> 00:44:59,439
Speaker 1: in the player role.

879
00:45:01,360 --> 00:45:06,920
Speaker 6: So yeah, So I mean the sarcasm again, on paper,

880
00:45:06,960 --> 00:45:09,879
Speaker 6: maybe looks good for like how an actual teenager would

881
00:45:09,880 --> 00:45:14,560
Speaker 6: re react, but I guess I just I see that

882
00:45:14,640 --> 00:45:17,960
Speaker 6: little speech that he makes. It's just very performative, just

883
00:45:18,040 --> 00:45:21,880
Speaker 6: in terms of not being a very authentic emotional reaction

884
00:45:22,200 --> 00:45:24,840
Speaker 6: so much as him trying to figure out what to

885
00:45:24,880 --> 00:45:29,080
Speaker 6: do with his emotions, whereas fighting back against the bully

886
00:45:29,160 --> 00:45:33,680
Speaker 6: seems like a very like natural emotional reaction. And I'd

887
00:45:33,760 --> 00:45:35,600
Speaker 6: like both of these characters so much more when they

888
00:45:36,160 --> 00:45:41,399
Speaker 6: put those reactions, those emotions that confusion and bafflement and

889
00:45:41,520 --> 00:45:45,680
Speaker 6: conflict into actions that we then have to kind of

890
00:45:45,719 --> 00:45:49,400
Speaker 6: read and live with because they're both very very violent

891
00:45:49,480 --> 00:45:52,080
Speaker 6: actions and kind of puzzling actions in a way, but

892
00:45:52,120 --> 00:45:56,319
Speaker 6: they're also both visceral, I guess in a way that

893
00:45:56,360 --> 00:45:58,080
Speaker 6: I think really services the movie.

894
00:45:58,719 --> 00:46:00,319
Speaker 2: And I do really like I mean, one of the

895
00:46:00,360 --> 00:46:03,440
Speaker 2: real true I think master strokes of the movie is

896
00:46:03,480 --> 00:46:05,680
Speaker 2: those kind of sex scenes in the movie though that

897
00:46:05,800 --> 00:46:08,279
Speaker 2: from where Tom is Tom and then Tom is sort

898
00:46:08,280 --> 00:46:11,400
Speaker 2: of Joey and and and we get these two scenes

899
00:46:11,440 --> 00:46:13,600
Speaker 2: that are set up in contrast with each other, and.

900
00:46:13,560 --> 00:46:14,440
Speaker 3: I think I think it.

901
00:46:14,680 --> 00:46:16,640
Speaker 2: I mean, one of the reason it works is because

902
00:46:16,680 --> 00:46:18,479
Speaker 2: I think just the staging of both of those scenes

903
00:46:18,560 --> 00:46:22,080
Speaker 2: is so memorable, like like like it really is this

904
00:46:22,239 --> 00:46:26,040
Speaker 2: whole date night where they're sort of returning to this

905
00:46:26,239 --> 00:46:29,600
Speaker 2: vague teenage, these these teenage these teenage years they never had.

906
00:46:30,000 --> 00:46:32,480
Speaker 2: And then of course she doesn't even know about him,

907
00:46:32,520 --> 00:46:35,640
Speaker 2: she doesn't know who he was as a teenager. That's

908
00:46:35,719 --> 00:46:37,040
Speaker 2: kind of one of the things that comes out later

909
00:46:37,080 --> 00:46:39,880
Speaker 2: in the movie. But it's so you know, that fantasy

910
00:46:39,960 --> 00:46:43,600
Speaker 2: is so alluring, and then to see that feeling, which

911
00:46:43,640 --> 00:46:46,360
Speaker 2: is kind of innocent and sweet and something that a

912
00:46:46,440 --> 00:46:49,399
Speaker 2: sort of role play that a straight Midwestern couple might

913
00:46:49,560 --> 00:46:53,800
Speaker 2: might have kind of turned into what occurs on the stairs,

914
00:46:53,800 --> 00:46:56,160
Speaker 2: it's just so stunning, you know, it's such a such

915
00:46:56,160 --> 00:46:57,920
Speaker 2: an incredible contrast.

916
00:46:58,280 --> 00:47:00,800
Speaker 6: I remember when the film came out, the sequence on

917
00:47:00,840 --> 00:47:04,720
Speaker 6: the stairs being one of the big controversies, one of

918
00:47:04,440 --> 00:47:07,600
Speaker 6: the things you know, people wrote in thought and talked

919
00:47:07,719 --> 00:47:13,120
Speaker 6: most about, and it's no less complex seeing it now.

920
00:47:13,200 --> 00:47:17,279
Speaker 6: I'm curious for how you guys take it now, you know,

921
00:47:17,400 --> 00:47:20,400
Speaker 6: since we're all, you know, older and wiser and the

922
00:47:21,440 --> 00:47:26,320
Speaker 6: especially about sort of the complex emotions that go into relationships.

923
00:47:26,480 --> 00:47:29,880
Speaker 6: I feel like when I first saw this movie, I

924
00:47:29,960 --> 00:47:33,920
Speaker 6: found that scene kind of shocking and kind of exploitative

925
00:47:34,640 --> 00:47:39,600
Speaker 6: and just so unclear in its intentions. And rewatching it

926
00:47:39,800 --> 00:47:42,359
Speaker 6: this time, I kind of feel like part of the

927
00:47:42,400 --> 00:47:47,200
Speaker 6: point is that is he snapping into his real uh

928
00:47:47,719 --> 00:47:50,120
Speaker 6: identity as Joey in that moment, like what.

929
00:47:50,200 --> 00:47:50,680
Speaker 5: Is he doing?

930
00:47:50,719 --> 00:47:53,719
Speaker 6: What does he want? When she responds to him the

931
00:47:53,719 --> 00:47:56,719
Speaker 6: way she does, what is she doing? What does she want?

932
00:47:56,880 --> 00:48:00,160
Speaker 6: I think maybe neither of them could have told you

933
00:48:00,760 --> 00:48:03,359
Speaker 6: at any stage, like interrupted, at any stage in that

934
00:48:03,400 --> 00:48:06,320
Speaker 6: stairway scene, neither of them could have told you exactly

935
00:48:06,400 --> 00:48:09,200
Speaker 6: what was going through their head or why. And I

936
00:48:09,239 --> 00:48:13,880
Speaker 6: actually like that ambiguity a lot more as an older

937
00:48:13,960 --> 00:48:16,279
Speaker 6: adult than I did back in two thousand and five.

938
00:48:16,600 --> 00:48:19,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think both scenes are kind of things you

939
00:48:19,000 --> 00:48:21,799
Speaker 1: can point to not to just bring in a strong man.

940
00:48:21,840 --> 00:48:23,799
Speaker 1: But there's certainly people will talk about how sex scenes

941
00:48:23,840 --> 00:48:26,800
Speaker 1: are not necessary. I think both these scenes are necessary.

942
00:48:26,840 --> 00:48:31,440
Speaker 1: That's such striking contrasts, and and yeah, I think you're right.

943
00:48:31,480 --> 00:48:34,680
Speaker 1: I mean, I think one point that's probably worth mentioning

944
00:48:34,920 --> 00:48:40,359
Speaker 1: is that the trigger for that moment is her striking him.

945
00:48:41,040 --> 00:48:43,280
Speaker 1: So in some ways, what he's doing is a response

946
00:48:43,320 --> 00:48:46,959
Speaker 1: to violence, like this is the return of Joey being

947
00:48:47,040 --> 00:48:49,840
Speaker 1: tied to you know, violent you know, an act of violence, however,

948
00:48:50,040 --> 00:48:53,640
Speaker 1: like you know, more symbolic than actually threatening, you know,

949
00:48:53,640 --> 00:48:56,239
Speaker 1: I think that that makes sense. I mean, I love

950
00:48:56,360 --> 00:49:00,400
Speaker 1: the ambiguity of that. I don't think I think you

951
00:49:00,400 --> 00:49:03,520
Speaker 1: can read it as a rape. I don't, but I'm

952
00:49:03,520 --> 00:49:05,200
Speaker 1: not going to tell you people who are wrong who

953
00:49:05,200 --> 00:49:07,319
Speaker 1: see it that way. And I don't think it's like

954
00:49:07,320 --> 00:49:10,279
Speaker 1: a straw dog's this is this is what she really

955
00:49:10,320 --> 00:49:14,680
Speaker 1: wants all along situation either but it is, it's it's

956
00:49:14,680 --> 00:49:18,320
Speaker 1: stick with possibilities. In reading that scene.

957
00:49:18,880 --> 00:49:21,800
Speaker 2: It's such an incredible high wire act of a scene because,

958
00:49:21,840 --> 00:49:25,160
Speaker 2: like you because the way what it could be, and

959
00:49:25,239 --> 00:49:28,440
Speaker 2: what these characters are are going through, and how to

960
00:49:28,520 --> 00:49:32,040
Speaker 2: the extent to which they're the nature of their sort

961
00:49:32,040 --> 00:49:34,600
Speaker 2: of engagement with each other at this moment, like all

962
00:49:34,640 --> 00:49:37,719
Speaker 2: of that is very you know, thorny and and and

963
00:49:37,760 --> 00:49:39,759
Speaker 2: I like that the movie kind of allows you to

964
00:49:39,880 --> 00:49:42,160
Speaker 2: like kind of live in that space and try to

965
00:49:42,200 --> 00:49:43,719
Speaker 2: try to sort it out. And I think that's kind

966
00:49:43,719 --> 00:49:47,000
Speaker 2: of from Edie's perspective, kind of what she's trying to

967
00:49:47,040 --> 00:49:47,920
Speaker 2: do is like kind.

968
00:49:47,800 --> 00:49:49,920
Speaker 3: Of figure out who who.

969
00:49:49,640 --> 00:49:53,279
Speaker 2: Partner is, you know what I mean, there's something and uh,

970
00:49:53,360 --> 00:49:57,360
Speaker 2: you know, and she's figuring that out in in the

971
00:49:57,400 --> 00:50:00,920
Speaker 2: physical way in which in which partners you know, express

972
00:50:00,960 --> 00:50:04,239
Speaker 2: themselves sometimes. I mean that's that's marriage, I guess, just

973
00:50:04,320 --> 00:50:07,080
Speaker 2: not not now, but now she's married to somebody with this,

974
00:50:07,360 --> 00:50:10,600
Speaker 2: uh you know who has this you know, violent criminal

975
00:50:10,600 --> 00:50:15,080
Speaker 2: past and potentially this you know, violent nature that that

976
00:50:15,080 --> 00:50:16,840
Speaker 2: that she now has to kind of negotiate because she

977
00:50:17,080 --> 00:50:19,360
Speaker 2: now knows this about him, and she's sort of you know,

978
00:50:19,400 --> 00:50:22,040
Speaker 2: slapping him in a way kind of like awakens the

979
00:50:22,080 --> 00:50:24,040
Speaker 2: beast or whatever, kind of kind of like kind of

980
00:50:24,120 --> 00:50:27,360
Speaker 2: allows her to see, you know, doctor Jekyl or something.

981
00:50:27,400 --> 00:50:31,400
Speaker 2: And yeah, I think it's kind of amazing. It's one

982
00:50:31,440 --> 00:50:32,640
Speaker 2: of those unforgettable scenes.

983
00:50:32,920 --> 00:50:35,760
Speaker 6: And not just that, but I mean, to me, part

984
00:50:35,800 --> 00:50:38,719
Speaker 6: of what happens on the stairs is like we we

985
00:50:38,800 --> 00:50:42,839
Speaker 6: see in that first scene with the cheerleading outfit that

986
00:50:43,080 --> 00:50:46,839
Speaker 6: Edie likes being in control, and to some degree Edie

987
00:50:46,960 --> 00:50:48,960
Speaker 6: is in control of their sex life. We don't know

988
00:50:49,120 --> 00:50:53,439
Speaker 6: if like we definitely know that the cheerleader outfit hasn't

989
00:50:53,480 --> 00:50:56,360
Speaker 6: come out before because of his response to it. But

990
00:50:57,520 --> 00:51:00,520
Speaker 6: he certainly doesn't seem all that surprised to see her

991
00:51:00,560 --> 00:51:03,839
Speaker 6: taking control the way she does, and like she kind

992
00:51:03,840 --> 00:51:05,319
Speaker 6: of tells him what he's going to do and how

993
00:51:05,320 --> 00:51:07,040
Speaker 6: he's going to respond and how he's going to do it.

994
00:51:07,120 --> 00:51:10,640
Speaker 6: And when he when he turns around and you know,

995
00:51:10,760 --> 00:51:13,799
Speaker 6: starts performing an act on her that she didn't like

996
00:51:14,040 --> 00:51:14,719
Speaker 6: order him to.

997
00:51:15,560 --> 00:51:16,480
Speaker 5: She doesn't seem.

998
00:51:16,280 --> 00:51:20,040
Speaker 6: Displeased in any way, Like she's not. It doesn't change

999
00:51:20,320 --> 00:51:23,160
Speaker 6: the nature of what's going on, but she still comes

1000
00:51:23,200 --> 00:51:27,360
Speaker 6: across as somebody who is comfortable with control and is

1001
00:51:27,360 --> 00:51:30,920
Speaker 6: is comfortable taking the lead in the bedroom and not

1002
00:51:31,440 --> 00:51:36,759
Speaker 6: necessarily needing or wanting her partner to do that. So

1003
00:51:37,400 --> 00:51:39,480
Speaker 6: to me, part of what we're seeing on the stairs

1004
00:51:39,800 --> 00:51:44,359
Speaker 6: is her taking control again, you know, her seizing this

1005
00:51:45,400 --> 00:51:49,680
Speaker 6: kind of tenuous control with this person who she doesn't

1006
00:51:49,719 --> 00:51:53,160
Speaker 6: quite know who he is. Part of her response, I

1007
00:51:53,200 --> 00:51:57,080
Speaker 6: think depending on you know, how you feel about sexual assault,

1008
00:51:57,120 --> 00:52:00,359
Speaker 6: how you feel about sexual assault in movies, you feel

1009
00:52:00,360 --> 00:52:03,719
Speaker 6: about sexual assault as a plot point in movies, how

1010
00:52:03,760 --> 00:52:06,879
Speaker 6: you feel about dubious consent in movies. You're gonna read

1011
00:52:06,920 --> 00:52:10,160
Speaker 6: a lot of different ways. So I'm with Keith in

1012
00:52:10,160 --> 00:52:12,879
Speaker 6: that I can't tell anybody else how they should read

1013
00:52:12,920 --> 00:52:15,160
Speaker 6: it or how they should feel about it. But my

1014
00:52:15,400 --> 00:52:18,680
Speaker 6: personal read on it, at least this time, was just,

1015
00:52:20,040 --> 00:52:22,279
Speaker 6: you know, he he has a moment of temper and

1016
00:52:22,320 --> 00:52:24,880
Speaker 6: he appalls himself, and he starts to pull back, and

1017
00:52:25,360 --> 00:52:30,920
Speaker 6: she reverts to taking control because she does not want

1018
00:52:31,000 --> 00:52:35,439
Speaker 6: to be like at odds with how she feels about

1019
00:52:35,440 --> 00:52:39,120
Speaker 6: herself or this relationship. And you know, she she grabs

1020
00:52:39,200 --> 00:52:42,400
Speaker 6: him and forcibly kisses him and pulls him into the

1021
00:52:42,440 --> 00:52:47,200
Speaker 6: sex act, and then just as forcibly like repulses, rejects

1022
00:52:47,200 --> 00:52:51,279
Speaker 6: and pushes him away afterwards. Like almost every step of

1023
00:52:51,320 --> 00:52:53,680
Speaker 6: that I see it like, after him sort of grabbing

1024
00:52:53,719 --> 00:52:58,680
Speaker 6: her and pulling her back is her asserting herself and

1025
00:52:58,680 --> 00:53:02,160
Speaker 6: and indicating like, this is how it's going to be

1026
00:53:02,160 --> 00:53:04,479
Speaker 6: between us as far as I'm concerned, And the fact

1027
00:53:04,520 --> 00:53:07,160
Speaker 6: that there are two different you know, draw and repulse

1028
00:53:07,400 --> 00:53:09,759
Speaker 6: responses there, I think he's just sort of part of

1029
00:53:09,840 --> 00:53:11,880
Speaker 6: the complexity of what she's going through. And again, I

1030
00:53:11,960 --> 00:53:13,719
Speaker 6: like it all a lot better than the vomiting.

1031
00:53:13,880 --> 00:53:14,799
Speaker 3: Well, let's let's start.

1032
00:53:14,840 --> 00:53:16,759
Speaker 2: I mean, I want to kind of get into a

1033
00:53:16,800 --> 00:53:19,960
Speaker 2: little bit how this is a David Kroterberg movie. But

1034
00:53:20,000 --> 00:53:22,719
Speaker 2: we really haven't talked about the performances. I mean, we

1035
00:53:22,800 --> 00:53:25,840
Speaker 2: have course have Bigle Mortenson and Riabello, but we have

1036
00:53:25,920 --> 00:53:30,000
Speaker 2: not said a word about about Ed Harris and William Hurt,

1037
00:53:30,000 --> 00:53:33,440
Speaker 2: who are you know, certainly pop in this movie, but

1038
00:53:33,480 --> 00:53:35,040
Speaker 2: in kind of a different way. So I'm kind of

1039
00:53:35,080 --> 00:53:37,080
Speaker 2: curious what you all, what do you make of these

1040
00:53:37,200 --> 00:53:39,920
Speaker 2: kind of three or four major performances in the movie.

1041
00:53:40,120 --> 00:53:43,600
Speaker 1: I think they're all very good. I think that Harris

1042
00:53:43,640 --> 00:53:46,239
Speaker 1: is terrifying in this in this film. I mean, he

1043
00:53:46,360 --> 00:53:49,080
Speaker 1: just has that kind of commanding quality even when he's

1044
00:53:49,120 --> 00:53:52,920
Speaker 1: playing you know, nice guys or not when he plays

1045
00:53:52,960 --> 00:53:56,719
Speaker 1: non murdery characters in films, and I'd like to see

1046
00:53:56,760 --> 00:53:59,879
Speaker 1: that those powers kind of trained on this type of role.

1047
00:54:00,120 --> 00:54:02,880
Speaker 1: I think it's it's really disturbing. I noticed some people

1048
00:54:02,880 --> 00:54:06,440
Speaker 1: were a little off on Hurt's performance at the time,

1049
00:54:06,560 --> 00:54:08,839
Speaker 1: but I like it. I think it's you know, it's

1050
00:54:08,880 --> 00:54:12,200
Speaker 1: it's big and colorful. There's there's a weird choice to

1051
00:54:12,239 --> 00:54:14,400
Speaker 1: have him like kind of having like an Amish beard,

1052
00:54:14,800 --> 00:54:17,360
Speaker 1: you know, president in Pennsylvania, even though he's supposed to

1053
00:54:17,360 --> 00:54:20,200
Speaker 1: be an Irish Irish fun too.

1054
00:54:20,239 --> 00:54:23,359
Speaker 2: I don't like And of course, how do you fuck

1055
00:54:23,440 --> 00:54:26,000
Speaker 2: that up? It's just an all timer of a line.

1056
00:54:26,040 --> 00:54:29,600
Speaker 2: It's like it's that one has stuck around for whatever

1057
00:54:29,680 --> 00:54:31,880
Speaker 2: the twenty plus years this film has existed.

1058
00:54:32,120 --> 00:54:35,040
Speaker 1: Well, it's got you spent I don't know if you remember,

1059
00:54:35,200 --> 00:54:37,480
Speaker 1: you spent years quoting behind.

1060
00:54:37,200 --> 00:54:38,279
Speaker 3: The eight ball.

1061
00:54:39,640 --> 00:54:42,879
Speaker 1: Delivery idea whatever. You had too much work to do.

1062
00:54:46,640 --> 00:54:47,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean it is. It is.

1063
00:54:48,200 --> 00:54:51,480
Speaker 2: He is William hurt Is in his own movie, and

1064
00:54:51,520 --> 00:54:52,880
Speaker 2: I think that's but I think that's kind of the

1065
00:54:52,960 --> 00:54:56,400
Speaker 2: thing with both Ed Ed Harris and William hurt Is

1066
00:54:56,440 --> 00:55:01,160
Speaker 2: that they're not only from a different world than Tom

1067
00:55:01,360 --> 00:55:03,840
Speaker 2: Eadie Occupy, but they almost seem like they're from a

1068
00:55:03,840 --> 00:55:06,799
Speaker 2: different movie, you know, like that they're from genre land

1069
00:55:07,160 --> 00:55:09,880
Speaker 2: and they've come to visit, right, and they're acting in

1070
00:55:10,200 --> 00:55:13,000
Speaker 2: ways that you might actually expect movie characters to act

1071
00:55:13,120 --> 00:55:15,920
Speaker 2: more than sort of real people. There they're not. I

1072
00:55:15,960 --> 00:55:18,400
Speaker 2: wouldn't say they're stock characters because they pop so much

1073
00:55:18,440 --> 00:55:20,800
Speaker 2: and they're so so just distinctive, but they are so

1074
00:55:20,960 --> 00:55:24,799
Speaker 2: these kind of colorful or cartoonish pulp figures in a

1075
00:55:24,840 --> 00:55:26,840
Speaker 2: way that Tom and Edie are not.

1076
00:55:27,360 --> 00:55:29,839
Speaker 6: I don't know about that though. I mean one of

1077
00:55:29,880 --> 00:55:32,359
Speaker 6: the things that's interesting about a lot of the male

1078
00:55:32,480 --> 00:55:37,680
Speaker 6: characters in this movie Ed Harris's character, William Hurt's character, Richie,

1079
00:55:37,880 --> 00:55:42,000
Speaker 6: but also I mean even some of the smaller characters

1080
00:55:42,040 --> 00:55:45,920
Speaker 6: like Rubin I. Matthews is a standout for me, you know,

1081
00:55:46,040 --> 00:55:49,239
Speaker 6: the guy that does in fact managed to screw up

1082
00:55:49,800 --> 00:55:56,520
Speaker 6: garatting people. Like all of these people use very soft forms.

1083
00:55:56,200 --> 00:55:59,160
Speaker 5: Of masculine like intimidation and violence.

1084
00:55:59,520 --> 00:56:01,360
Speaker 6: There is not a lot of shouting, there's not a

1085
00:56:01,360 --> 00:56:04,160
Speaker 6: lot of swearing, there's not a lot of specific threatening

1086
00:56:04,680 --> 00:56:08,440
Speaker 6: and Harris is one of his most threatening scenes involves

1087
00:56:08,480 --> 00:56:11,640
Speaker 6: sitting on a bench far away from any of the

1088
00:56:11,680 --> 00:56:15,600
Speaker 6: other characters and just you know, smiling and saying friendly things.

1089
00:56:16,320 --> 00:56:19,600
Speaker 6: Richie has this whole like, you know, very chill speech

1090
00:56:19,640 --> 00:56:22,399
Speaker 6: about like hey, and here's exactly what we went through

1091
00:56:22,440 --> 00:56:24,640
Speaker 6: in the past, where he's working his way up to

1092
00:56:24,719 --> 00:56:27,960
Speaker 6: murdering his brother. But you know, there's no there's no

1093
00:56:28,040 --> 00:56:30,680
Speaker 6: frothing and yelling about it. And then you know, of

1094
00:56:30,719 --> 00:56:35,800
Speaker 6: course Tom slash Joey, all of his violence is quiet,

1095
00:56:35,840 --> 00:56:41,040
Speaker 6: All of his response to crisis is pretty quiet. I

1096
00:56:41,120 --> 00:56:43,360
Speaker 6: just I think it's interesting that there just aren't really

1097
00:56:44,080 --> 00:56:46,759
Speaker 6: despite the fact that these are movie gangsters in a

1098
00:56:46,800 --> 00:56:50,200
Speaker 6: lot of ways, they are not loud movie gangsters, which

1099
00:56:50,400 --> 00:56:53,800
Speaker 6: you know, we're pretty used to as stock character types.

1100
00:56:54,440 --> 00:56:57,200
Speaker 2: So I guess my last question, and maybe i'll start

1101
00:56:57,320 --> 00:57:00,600
Speaker 2: here with Keith is you know, when the came out,

1102
00:57:00,920 --> 00:57:03,600
Speaker 2: it felt a bit surprising to me at the time

1103
00:57:03,640 --> 00:57:06,640
Speaker 2: that David Cronenberg directed it, But the more I watch it,

1104
00:57:06,640 --> 00:57:08,719
Speaker 2: the more it seems to suit him. So I guess

1105
00:57:08,719 --> 00:57:11,680
Speaker 2: I would ask, how would you situate a history of

1106
00:57:11,760 --> 00:57:13,520
Speaker 2: violence with Cronenberg's other work.

1107
00:57:13,800 --> 00:57:16,000
Speaker 1: I mean, it looked like an outlier. I think, more

1108
00:57:16,040 --> 00:57:22,920
Speaker 1: outlier then now that he's done more films outside of

1109
00:57:22,920 --> 00:57:24,760
Speaker 1: sort of the genre which he started, although certainly kind

1110
00:57:24,760 --> 00:57:26,960
Speaker 1: of looped back to it with his last couple. But

1111
00:57:27,000 --> 00:57:30,240
Speaker 1: I mean there's a lot of connections here between his

1112
00:57:30,840 --> 00:57:35,280
Speaker 1: just kind of his ongoing obsessions too, with identity, with

1113
00:57:35,320 --> 00:57:37,400
Speaker 1: the relationship between the mind and the body, if you

1114
00:57:37,960 --> 00:57:40,640
Speaker 1: or if you can even make that distinction, I mean,

1115
00:57:40,680 --> 00:57:44,320
Speaker 1: I think about the divide between Joey and Tom is

1116
00:57:44,440 --> 00:57:48,520
Speaker 1: not that different from the kind of slippery the poorest

1117
00:57:48,560 --> 00:57:52,240
Speaker 1: borders between the two characters and dead Ringers. I think

1118
00:57:52,360 --> 00:57:56,600
Speaker 1: also there's a bit of you know, you know, the

1119
00:57:56,600 --> 00:57:59,640
Speaker 1: way biology changes also changes our behavior in some ways

1120
00:57:59,800 --> 00:58:02,080
Speaker 1: and vice versa. Like you know, it's not you know,

1121
00:58:02,360 --> 00:58:04,640
Speaker 1: what he does when he transforms from tom and to

1122
00:58:04,760 --> 00:58:08,080
Speaker 1: Joey isn't the fly. But at the same time, you know,

1123
00:58:08,120 --> 00:58:10,600
Speaker 1: he carries himself with a totally different way. His his

1124
00:58:10,760 --> 00:58:14,720
Speaker 1: sort of like stock, his default facial expressions is different,

1125
00:58:14,800 --> 00:58:17,600
Speaker 1: his accent is different. I mean, is it's still just

1126
00:58:17,640 --> 00:58:21,280
Speaker 1: Vigo imorton'e up there? But you know, the transformation is

1127
00:58:21,720 --> 00:58:24,240
Speaker 1: pretty profound, and I mean, you know, I think a

1128
00:58:24,320 --> 00:58:26,680
Speaker 1: lot of the you know, if if you want to

1129
00:58:26,720 --> 00:58:29,840
Speaker 1: do like a really broad underlying question to chronun verse work,

1130
00:58:29,840 --> 00:58:33,080
Speaker 1: it's like, you know, what what makes us who we are?

1131
00:58:33,480 --> 00:58:36,280
Speaker 1: And I think that certainly gets explored in this u

1132
00:58:36,400 --> 00:58:38,640
Speaker 1: in this project, albeit in a very different sort of

1133
00:58:38,640 --> 00:58:40,600
Speaker 1: way than than we in two thousand and five, at

1134
00:58:40,680 --> 00:58:43,600
Speaker 1: least we were used to him exploring it.

1135
00:58:44,040 --> 00:58:46,000
Speaker 6: Yeah, I think he also has a kind of an

1136
00:58:46,040 --> 00:58:50,360
Speaker 6: obsession with human potential, whether that's you know, mental or

1137
00:58:50,520 --> 00:58:55,120
Speaker 6: ethical or physical human potential, whether it's you know, pushing

1138
00:58:55,240 --> 00:59:00,000
Speaker 6: into the boundaries of what is the potential for human

1139
00:59:00,120 --> 00:59:02,960
Speaker 6: after they die, what they go through physically in the

1140
00:59:03,000 --> 00:59:07,800
Speaker 6: Shrouds versus you know what can the limits of somebody's

1141
00:59:07,840 --> 00:59:10,720
Speaker 6: brain bring to them and do to their body in

1142
00:59:10,760 --> 00:59:14,880
Speaker 6: the fly versus you know what kind of a what

1143
00:59:15,160 --> 00:59:17,400
Speaker 6: is there for you on the other side of this

1144
00:59:17,520 --> 00:59:25,000
Speaker 6: extreme in something like scanners or videodrome. All that said,

1145
00:59:25,320 --> 00:59:27,280
Speaker 6: have you guys read the graphic novel this was based on.

1146
00:59:27,600 --> 00:59:30,040
Speaker 1: I have it, actually, I actually, and I don't think

1147
00:59:30,080 --> 00:59:32,800
Speaker 1: credit break has here. I think that was another thing

1148
00:59:32,840 --> 00:59:35,880
Speaker 1: that kind of came out and in the background. Looking

1149
00:59:35,880 --> 00:59:37,000
Speaker 1: at the background materials for.

1150
00:59:37,080 --> 00:59:39,720
Speaker 6: Us, I can understand that I have read it, and

1151
00:59:39,800 --> 00:59:43,960
Speaker 6: it goes into some body horror places that are extreme

1152
00:59:44,080 --> 00:59:46,640
Speaker 6: enough to have stayed with me for twenty years, and

1153
00:59:46,680 --> 00:59:49,200
Speaker 6: some body horror places that I would think would draw him.

1154
00:59:49,360 --> 00:59:53,080
Speaker 6: And the fact that this movie is so much less violent,

1155
00:59:53,880 --> 01:00:02,760
Speaker 6: gory and just horrific about body body mutilation specifically than

1156
01:00:03,120 --> 01:00:05,600
Speaker 6: so many Cronenberg movies and so much less so than

1157
01:00:05,640 --> 01:00:08,080
Speaker 6: the graphic novel is just really interesting to me. But

1158
01:00:08,120 --> 01:00:11,200
Speaker 6: I did think of the Shrouds a lot during this film,

1159
01:00:11,280 --> 01:00:13,840
Speaker 6: just because it seems like it goes into some of

1160
01:00:13,920 --> 01:00:18,640
Speaker 6: the same places of instead of somebody exploring his own obsession.

1161
01:00:18,720 --> 01:00:22,880
Speaker 6: It's somebody trying to defend himself from everybody around him,

1162
01:00:23,320 --> 01:00:26,280
Speaker 6: becoming obsessed with something he doesn't want to think about anymore.

1163
01:00:26,520 --> 01:00:28,560
Speaker 6: It feels like the shrouds turned inside out to me

1164
01:00:28,640 --> 01:00:29,040
Speaker 6: in a way.

1165
01:00:29,400 --> 01:00:33,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, some of his later films actually help make sense

1166
01:00:33,240 --> 01:00:35,760
Speaker 2: of this one. No No, especially Eastern Promises, because if

1167
01:00:35,760 --> 01:00:39,280
Speaker 2: Eastern Promises comes after this, it's like, Okay, I get it.

1168
01:00:39,280 --> 01:00:40,160
Speaker 2: It's all of a piece.

1169
01:00:40,520 --> 01:00:44,040
Speaker 6: I saw those movies close enough together back in the

1170
01:00:44,120 --> 01:00:47,680
Speaker 6: day and had forgotten the ins and outs of this

1171
01:00:47,720 --> 01:00:51,160
Speaker 6: one enough that for at least half of the movie,

1172
01:00:51,280 --> 01:00:54,960
Speaker 6: I was thinking, how does he ultimately conceal his identity

1173
01:00:54,960 --> 01:00:57,320
Speaker 6: from his wife when he's got all those tattoos? And

1174
01:00:57,960 --> 01:01:01,080
Speaker 6: how does the bath house work into this fight happen?

1175
01:01:01,600 --> 01:01:04,680
Speaker 2: And I actually had forgotten that I had for some reason,

1176
01:01:04,720 --> 01:01:07,560
Speaker 2: I thought that William Hurt was in Eastern Bounce is

1177
01:01:07,600 --> 01:01:10,160
Speaker 2: at a certain point, like I got all mucked up.

1178
01:01:10,160 --> 01:01:13,920
Speaker 2: But good films we have will have plenty more to

1179
01:01:13,920 --> 01:01:16,720
Speaker 2: say about history of Bounce. It's just so endlessly fascinating.

1180
01:01:16,760 --> 01:01:20,160
Speaker 2: But we're gonna pause on that for a moment until

1181
01:01:20,240 --> 01:01:23,960
Speaker 2: next week when we bring it back in with the drama.

1182
01:01:24,360 --> 01:01:25,760
Speaker 3: We'll come back with feedback.

1183
01:01:32,320 --> 01:01:35,600
Speaker 8: This episode is brought to you by Redfinn. You're listening

1184
01:01:35,600 --> 01:01:39,919
Speaker 8: to a podcast, which means you're probably multitasking, maybe even

1185
01:01:39,960 --> 01:01:43,520
Speaker 8: scrolling home listings on Redfin, saving homes without expecting to

1186
01:01:43,600 --> 01:01:47,160
Speaker 8: get them. But Redfin isn't just built for endless browsing.

1187
01:01:47,520 --> 01:01:49,959
Speaker 8: It's built to help you find and own a home

1188
01:01:50,360 --> 01:01:53,200
Speaker 8: with agents who closed twice as many deals. When you

1189
01:01:53,280 --> 01:01:56,200
Speaker 8: find the one, you've got a real shot at getting it.

1190
01:01:56,520 --> 01:02:05,160
Speaker 8: Get started at redfin dot com Own the dream.

1191
01:02:05,400 --> 01:02:07,600
Speaker 2: Now it's time for feedback, but before we get to

1192
01:02:07,600 --> 01:02:10,400
Speaker 2: that section, we have a very exciting announcement to make.

1193
01:02:10,960 --> 01:02:13,480
Speaker 2: This week, we welcome an old friend back to the

1194
01:02:13,480 --> 01:02:18,640
Speaker 2: Film Spotting family of podcasts. Matt Singer has revived Film

1195
01:02:18,680 --> 01:02:22,320
Speaker 2: Spotting SVU Streaming video Unit, and this time his co

1196
01:02:22,400 --> 01:02:25,520
Speaker 2: host is his very good friend Jordan Hoffman, who has

1197
01:02:25,520 --> 01:02:28,240
Speaker 2: made a couple of great guest appearances on our show too.

1198
01:02:28,720 --> 01:02:32,160
Speaker 2: They have a wonderful chemistry together and the returning with

1199
01:02:32,640 --> 01:02:36,120
Speaker 2: an episode this week around the new Jonah Hill Apple

1200
01:02:36,120 --> 01:02:40,240
Speaker 2: Plus film outcome. We also want to give our usual

1201
01:02:40,280 --> 01:02:42,680
Speaker 2: shout out to Film Spotting. The next picture shows Mothership

1202
01:02:42,720 --> 01:02:45,960
Speaker 2: podcast hosted by Adam Kempanar and Josh Larson. As we're

1203
01:02:46,000 --> 01:02:48,480
Speaker 2: recording this, they're prepping their own episode in the drama

1204
01:02:49,040 --> 01:02:52,160
Speaker 2: and getting into the elite eight of their nineteen forties

1205
01:02:52,200 --> 01:02:53,640
Speaker 2: film Spotting Madness poll.

1206
01:02:54,200 --> 01:02:56,600
Speaker 1: Can't here look at this? It hurts me so much.

1207
01:02:57,560 --> 01:02:59,840
Speaker 5: Yes, having to make any choices?

1208
01:03:00,120 --> 01:03:03,240
Speaker 1: Yes, No, I look at you like a kid. No,

1209
01:03:03,280 --> 01:03:04,560
Speaker 1: don't make me. Don't make shoes.

1210
01:03:04,720 --> 01:03:07,280
Speaker 2: It's the ultimate and apples and oranges. But you must choose.

1211
01:03:07,720 --> 01:03:09,360
Speaker 6: I got any good news for you. This is not

1212
01:03:09,520 --> 01:03:13,200
Speaker 6: a binding poll. They are not going to eliminate whichever

1213
01:03:13,280 --> 01:03:14,880
Speaker 6: movie you personally do not vote for.

1214
01:03:15,160 --> 01:03:16,920
Speaker 1: I go for Its Wonderful Wife or The Red Shoes.

1215
01:03:16,920 --> 01:03:19,680
Speaker 1: The Red Shooes does not disappear from existence. Got it? Okay?

1216
01:03:19,760 --> 01:03:20,120
Speaker 1: Thank you?

1217
01:03:20,480 --> 01:03:22,840
Speaker 2: Well, you can go to film Spotting dot neta then

1218
01:03:22,880 --> 01:03:25,560
Speaker 2: and do the terrible thing and actually cast a vote.

1219
01:03:25,800 --> 01:03:27,520
Speaker 3: But now now it's time.

1220
01:03:27,320 --> 01:03:30,520
Speaker 2: For feedback, where we read or listen to some of

1221
01:03:30,520 --> 01:03:33,240
Speaker 2: the responses we've gotten to recent episodes. This week we

1222
01:03:33,280 --> 01:03:35,919
Speaker 2: have a couple of listeners who have strong thoughts on

1223
01:03:35,960 --> 01:03:38,840
Speaker 2: our project Hail Mary pairing. Both of these are more

1224
01:03:38,960 --> 01:03:41,920
Speaker 2: common than a question type emails, so we'll probably get

1225
01:03:41,920 --> 01:03:44,000
Speaker 2: them quite quickly, but we may respond to them anyway

1226
01:03:44,040 --> 01:03:45,880
Speaker 2: because we have the right to do so.

1227
01:03:46,400 --> 01:03:47,720
Speaker 3: Keith, you want to take.

1228
01:03:47,320 --> 01:03:51,080
Speaker 1: The first, sure, Paul, send us two emails and you'll

1229
01:03:51,080 --> 01:03:53,320
Speaker 1: see why in a second. In the first, Paul writes,

1230
01:03:53,760 --> 01:03:56,080
Speaker 1: I'm sure there were hundreds of us yelling at our

1231
01:03:56,120 --> 01:03:58,960
Speaker 1: phones and by extension you, I love you guys, But

1232
01:03:59,160 --> 01:04:02,040
Speaker 1: my god, all apps. We did get an Alex Garland

1233
01:04:02,080 --> 01:04:05,160
Speaker 1: version of this movie, and it's much better than Project

1234
01:04:05,240 --> 01:04:09,400
Speaker 1: cal Mary. Sunshine, Sunshine Sunshine. Just so, Chris Fallen, there

1235
01:04:09,440 --> 01:04:11,520
Speaker 1: was a good five minutes at least you could have

1236
01:04:11,600 --> 01:04:15,000
Speaker 1: profitably spent comparing the two. In fact, I'd arn't you.

1237
01:04:15,040 --> 01:04:17,320
Speaker 1: It's a better pairing than Silent Running. How did you

1238
01:04:17,360 --> 01:04:20,400
Speaker 1: not even consider Sunshine right now? The second email said

1239
01:04:20,400 --> 01:04:22,440
Speaker 1: an hour later, Oh my god, got to the end

1240
01:04:22,480 --> 01:04:24,760
Speaker 1: and you did mention Sunshine, but had forgotten it was

1241
01:04:24,760 --> 01:04:29,040
Speaker 1: a Garland boil joint. It seems again missed opportunity. Thanks

1242
01:04:29,040 --> 01:04:30,920
Speaker 1: for what you do, though, it's good stuff. No, we

1243
01:04:30,920 --> 01:04:33,520
Speaker 1: didn't forget, and we were really close. It was so close,

1244
01:04:33,800 --> 01:04:36,360
Speaker 1: so close, you know what I like to think, you know,

1245
01:04:36,560 --> 01:04:39,680
Speaker 1: In a sliding door scenario, people are gonna be like, ah,

1246
01:04:39,840 --> 01:04:44,080
Speaker 1: why not Silent Running talk about Silent Running?

1247
01:04:45,000 --> 01:04:47,360
Speaker 2: I think we'd also done a lot of Garland, right,

1248
01:04:47,720 --> 01:04:49,960
Speaker 2: I mean, we like to cover Garland movies, so I

1249
01:04:49,960 --> 01:04:51,439
Speaker 2: think it was a chance to do something a little

1250
01:04:51,480 --> 01:04:52,640
Speaker 2: bit a little funkier.

1251
01:04:52,760 --> 01:04:54,640
Speaker 1: I bet you we'll do Sunshine. I'll bet you'll do

1252
01:04:54,680 --> 01:04:57,600
Speaker 1: Sunshine at some point. Well, we're something else will come along.

1253
01:04:57,920 --> 01:04:59,600
Speaker 6: I think we also just I mean, we did talk

1254
01:04:59,640 --> 01:05:02,040
Speaker 6: about it, but we kind of felt that Silent Running

1255
01:05:02,160 --> 01:05:04,960
Speaker 6: had just more to discuss, And that is sometimes the

1256
01:05:05,000 --> 01:05:08,640
Speaker 6: deciding factor is just would we rather spend an hour

1257
01:05:08,720 --> 01:05:10,080
Speaker 6: talking about this movie.

1258
01:05:09,880 --> 01:05:10,720
Speaker 5: Or that movie?

1259
01:05:10,880 --> 01:05:14,920
Speaker 6: And I think the direction Sunshine ultimately goes in, which

1260
01:05:14,960 --> 01:05:17,479
Speaker 6: is most of what people have said about it since

1261
01:05:17,680 --> 01:05:20,400
Speaker 6: it came out, it's just kind of souring, I think

1262
01:05:20,440 --> 01:05:23,240
Speaker 6: to some degree, calling for the Alex Garland version of

1263
01:05:23,320 --> 01:05:27,240
Speaker 6: Project Hail Mary was saying, like, we wish that the

1264
01:05:27,400 --> 01:05:30,760
Speaker 6: Alex Garland that we saw in the first two acts

1265
01:05:30,800 --> 01:05:34,439
Speaker 6: of Sunshine could be applied to this movie. Maybe there's

1266
01:05:34,440 --> 01:05:37,280
Speaker 6: an edit where we cobble them all together, eliminate the

1267
01:05:37,320 --> 01:05:42,000
Speaker 6: serial killer, make it like thirty percent less jokey and cutesye,

1268
01:05:42,200 --> 01:05:44,920
Speaker 6: and end up with the perfect version of both the movies.

1269
01:05:45,120 --> 01:05:49,760
Speaker 2: Maybe so, but we actually have another email questioning our

1270
01:05:50,360 --> 01:05:52,640
Speaker 2: at least the science and Project Hail Mary.

1271
01:05:52,760 --> 01:05:53,600
Speaker 3: Tasha want to read.

1272
01:05:53,440 --> 01:05:56,280
Speaker 6: That for us, sure thing, David writes, I really wanted

1273
01:05:56,320 --> 01:05:58,480
Speaker 6: to like Project Hail Mary, and I didn't hate it,

1274
01:05:58,720 --> 01:06:02,000
Speaker 6: but geez, I am pretty with a cute alien sidekick theme.

1275
01:06:02,240 --> 01:06:05,520
Speaker 6: However cute the latest version was, and okay, I admit it,

1276
01:06:05,520 --> 01:06:08,480
Speaker 6: he was very cute. Also, watching those space ships doing

1277
01:06:10,040 --> 01:06:14,320
Speaker 6: something in space left me sad. Almost sixty years ago,

1278
01:06:14,480 --> 01:06:17,800
Speaker 6: Stanley Kubrick consulted with experts to learn something about gravity,

1279
01:06:17,880 --> 01:06:21,960
Speaker 6: about motion in space, about weightlessness, about artificial gravity from rotation,

1280
01:06:22,400 --> 01:06:25,760
Speaker 6: and as a result, Space Odyssey made scientific sense except

1281
01:06:25,760 --> 01:06:27,760
Speaker 6: for the parts that made no sense whatsoever, But they

1282
01:06:27,760 --> 01:06:30,920
Speaker 6: weren't supposed to. PHM was pretending to make sense, but

1283
01:06:31,200 --> 01:06:34,320
Speaker 6: just didn't. The absurdity of the bad science kept pulling

1284
01:06:34,320 --> 01:06:35,080
Speaker 6: me out of the movie.

1285
01:06:35,640 --> 01:06:35,880
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1286
01:06:35,920 --> 01:06:36,920
Speaker 5: I truly don't remember how.

1287
01:06:36,880 --> 01:06:39,240
Speaker 6: Much we get into this, but like the part where

1288
01:06:39,320 --> 01:06:43,120
Speaker 6: Ryland Grace's spaceship like accelerates and then comes to a

1289
01:06:43,440 --> 01:06:48,720
Speaker 6: full complete stop in space Star Wars style coming out

1290
01:06:48,720 --> 01:06:51,480
Speaker 6: of hyperdrive, and then Rocky ship like just pulls up

1291
01:06:51,520 --> 01:06:54,480
Speaker 6: next to him exactly like that, and they're both just complete,

1292
01:06:54,480 --> 01:06:57,840
Speaker 6: one hundred percent stopped in space. I did kind of

1293
01:06:57,880 --> 01:07:03,160
Speaker 6: have it. Ah, I thought this story was originally based

1294
01:07:03,200 --> 01:07:07,320
Speaker 6: in like at least scientific thinking, if not scientific accuracy.

1295
01:07:07,360 --> 01:07:08,360
Speaker 5: But this is nonsense.

1296
01:07:08,800 --> 01:07:10,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I think that's kind of a thing,

1297
01:07:10,200 --> 01:07:12,800
Speaker 2: that this is something that we I know I talked

1298
01:07:12,800 --> 01:07:16,240
Speaker 2: about and we probably talked about as well on the podcast.

1299
01:07:16,360 --> 01:07:20,480
Speaker 2: Is is that if I'm comparing any weird projects, I

1300
01:07:20,600 --> 01:07:23,600
Speaker 2: kind of give the nod to The Martian because the

1301
01:07:23,640 --> 01:07:26,880
Speaker 2: science in that movie is so clear and at least

1302
01:07:27,040 --> 01:07:29,880
Speaker 2: seemingly credible from a viewers point of view in terms

1303
01:07:29,920 --> 01:07:32,600
Speaker 2: of leading you through the movie and giving and becoming

1304
01:07:32,640 --> 01:07:36,160
Speaker 2: a source of tension and curiosity in itself in a

1305
01:07:36,160 --> 01:07:38,880
Speaker 2: way that I don't think happens in Project Hail Mary.

1306
01:07:39,280 --> 01:07:40,720
Speaker 2: But I think we get into that a little bit,

1307
01:07:40,760 --> 01:07:44,600
Speaker 2: But we do. I like that we're getting I like that,

1308
01:07:44,640 --> 01:07:46,680
Speaker 2: we get we're getting a little bit of fire from our.

1309
01:07:46,840 --> 01:07:49,120
Speaker 1: Listen, fine, get matters, that's fine, we love it.

1310
01:07:49,200 --> 01:07:49,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, they get mad.

1311
01:07:50,080 --> 01:07:54,760
Speaker 2: Get mad at us your phone or your email box

1312
01:07:54,800 --> 01:07:56,160
Speaker 2: and get those feelings out there.

1313
01:07:56,960 --> 01:07:58,880
Speaker 6: But don't don't get mad at us about the science

1314
01:07:59,120 --> 01:08:02,000
Speaker 6: in Project Tail Mayor, and don't get mad about at

1315
01:08:02,040 --> 01:08:04,840
Speaker 6: Andy Weir, who does a lot of research, like get

1316
01:08:04,920 --> 01:08:08,120
Speaker 6: that at phill Lord and Christopher Miller, because I like

1317
01:08:08,240 --> 01:08:10,280
Speaker 6: a lot of the stuff in this movie that's nonsense,

1318
01:08:10,480 --> 01:08:15,200
Speaker 6: is cinematic nonsense as opposed to stuff that didn't make sense, like.

1319
01:08:15,280 --> 01:08:16,559
Speaker 5: There's there's nothing like that.

1320
01:08:16,920 --> 01:08:18,720
Speaker 6: It's been a while since I read that book, but

1321
01:08:18,760 --> 01:08:22,760
Speaker 6: I'm positive that there's nothing about instantaneous space breaks in

1322
01:08:22,760 --> 01:08:23,280
Speaker 6: that book.

1323
01:08:23,479 --> 01:08:24,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, okay.

1324
01:08:24,640 --> 01:08:27,599
Speaker 2: We always appreciate feedback from our listeners. To reach us,

1325
01:08:27,600 --> 01:08:29,679
Speaker 2: you can leave a short voicemail at seven seven three

1326
01:08:30,000 --> 01:08:32,880
Speaker 2: two three four nine seven three zero or email us

1327
01:08:32,880 --> 01:08:35,719
Speaker 2: at comments at next pictureshow dot net. You can also

1328
01:08:35,760 --> 01:08:38,880
Speaker 2: send a recorded message to our email address if you

1329
01:08:39,120 --> 01:08:41,800
Speaker 2: really want to make sure you get the wording just right.

1330
01:08:42,400 --> 01:08:44,439
Speaker 2: That's it for this episode of the Next Picture Show.

1331
01:08:44,439 --> 01:08:46,840
Speaker 2: And our next episode, we'll talk about the drama, another

1332
01:08:46,840 --> 01:08:49,240
Speaker 2: movie about a relationship threatened by a secret, only this

1333
01:08:49,280 --> 01:08:52,240
Speaker 2: one is revealed before the wedding day. Look for that

1334
01:08:52,280 --> 01:08:55,080
Speaker 2: episode next Tuesday, and your podcast your choice for ad

1335
01:08:55,120 --> 01:08:57,720
Speaker 2: free versus of the podcast and extra content, find us

1336
01:08:57,760 --> 01:09:00,880
Speaker 2: on Patreon at Patreon dot com, slash Next Picture Show.

1337
01:09:01,320 --> 01:09:03,519
Speaker 2: You can find us at nextprestureshow dot net and on

1338
01:09:03,600 --> 01:09:05,840
Speaker 2: Blue Sky at the Next Picture Show. If you want

1339
01:09:05,840 --> 01:09:09,439
Speaker 2: to keep track of when new episodes drop until next week. Remember,

1340
01:09:09,960 --> 01:09:12,400
Speaker 2: don't pretend you've never been to Philly. We can see

1341
01:09:12,439 --> 01:09:14,120
Speaker 2: the cheese steak drippings on your chin.

1342
01:09:26,360 --> 01:09:27,160
Speaker 6: That was a good movie.

1343
01:09:27,479 --> 01:09:29,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, seen here before once