Speaker 1: Pushkin. Brandy Carlyle's knack for uplifting the musicians she loves
Speaker 1: is exemplary. After her own hard earned ascent to success
Speaker 1: over the course of seven studio albums, Brandy started to
Speaker 1: turn her sights to producing the albums for artists she
Speaker 1: deeply admires, including Tanya Tucker, who she's been unbroken record
Speaker 1: with in the past, but also Brandy Clark. Then there's
Speaker 1: Joni Mitchell, who, thanks to Brandy's encouragement, has recently made
Speaker 1: a glorious return to performing live. Brandy's passion for the
Speaker 1: project she works on is infectious. The latest is an
Speaker 1: EP she produced for an eighteen year old singer songwriter
Speaker 1: named Tish Melton. The EPs called When We're Older. Over
Speaker 1: the course of the five song collection, Tish pulls influence
Speaker 1: from artists like Phoebe Bridgers and Lucy Dakis. Tish, whose
Speaker 1: mom is the New York Times bestselling author Glennon Doyle,
Speaker 1: is teeming with talent on her EP, which includes heartfelt
Speaker 1: songs that expertly capture a wise beyond her years self assuredness.
Speaker 1: On today's episode, Lea Rose talks to Tish Melton and
Speaker 1: Brandy Carlyle about their creative partnership and the impermeable sense
Speaker 1: of self Brandy is found in both Tish and Joni Mitchell.
Speaker 1: And Brandy teases her upcoming collaboration album that she calls monumental,
Speaker 1: and she talks about why she thinks Beyonce might be
Speaker 1: country music's saving grace. This is broken record liner notes
Speaker 1: for the digital Age. I'm justin Mitchman. Here's Lea Rose's
Speaker 1: conversation with Tish Melton and Brandy Carlisle.
Speaker 2: Well, thank you both so much for doing this. I'm
Speaker 2: super excited to hear about how this album came to be.
Speaker 2: I guess let's start. Brandy, tell me how you first
Speaker 2: met Tish and how you then found out that she
Speaker 2: was a musician.
Speaker 3: Well, our families are friends, so that might make you
Speaker 3: think that, you know, because of proximity to one another,
Speaker 3: or just an affection that we have for one another,
Speaker 3: that that would draw us to work together, or me
Speaker 3: to't want to work with Tish, But actually's quite it's
Speaker 3: quite pure.
Speaker 1: Like I just.
Speaker 3: Saw her trajectory from this interested young person like learning
Speaker 3: an instrument and starting to sing covers, to like starting
Speaker 3: to write in really pure, interesting and unaffected ways to
Speaker 3: like actually becoming a damn good writer to becoming so
Speaker 3: impressed that I was like a bit jealous. And that's
Speaker 3: that's the point where we kind of met and decided
Speaker 3: to go in and record some things because why not,
Speaker 3: you know. Yeah, but it was a really natural trajectory
Speaker 3: of me gaining affection and then admiration for a songwriter
Speaker 3: that was honestly just impressing me, and proximity to our
Speaker 3: families kind of phased out as one of the reasons
Speaker 3: why we work together.
Speaker 2: In the end, I think Tish, Yeah, And then when
Speaker 2: you say she was writing in unaffected ways, what do
Speaker 2: you mean by that?
Speaker 3: Oh? I just mean that Tish is like a part
Speaker 3: of a songwriting contingency that I have like a lot
Speaker 3: of respect for, and I actually think she's one of
Speaker 3: the best at it, where she's so innocently and with
Speaker 3: such wisdom writing about exactly who she is right where
Speaker 3: she is. She's like the Eckhart Toll, you know, prime
Speaker 3: example of a songwriter like living in the moment in
Speaker 3: the age that they are, you know. And I remember
Speaker 3: coming up in roots in Americana and folk music and
Speaker 3: writing about hopin' trains and the dust bowl and shit. Like,
Speaker 3: you know, I wasn't talking about getting behind the wheel
Speaker 3: of a car for the first time and being sad
Speaker 3: that I was suddenly an adult, because that would have
Speaker 3: revealed that I was not, in fact an adult. And
Speaker 3: I wanted to be taken seriously in a way that
Speaker 3: Tish is unaffected by and it's I'm in awe of it.
Speaker 2: Tish, are you aware that you have that ability?
Speaker 4: I mean, but Brandy was one was the first person
Speaker 4: to tell me that. But my mom had always told
Speaker 4: me that I was a very like, unaffected, steady person.
Speaker 4: So I think the fact that that's transferred into my music, like,
Speaker 4: I'm glad that I have a sense of self that
Speaker 4: kind of carries through both those things you do.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Brandy, when you're working with Tish and you're reading
Speaker 2: her lyrics or you're hearing the lyrics, does it take
Speaker 2: you at all back to where you were when you
Speaker 2: were seventeen eighteen? And does it make you sort of
Speaker 2: like compare your experience.
Speaker 3: Yeah, kind of, especially when you know, we did an
Speaker 3: interview recently where somebody asked her who specifically she was
Speaker 3: singing about in a certain song, and I watched her
Speaker 3: kind of try to grasp for what that is, because
Speaker 3: I sense that feeling of like I remember writing really
Speaker 3: important and profound self revealing things about myself, probably not
Speaker 3: as concisely as Tish does, but with the same intent,
Speaker 3: and not knowing what it was about until fifteen years later,
Speaker 3: and looking back on it, realizing the person that influenced that,
Speaker 3: or the moment or the thing that influenced that, and
Speaker 3: also realize that these are habits I'm repeating into middle age.
Speaker 3: So yeah, I do. I see real parallels, and I
Speaker 3: see someone that's better than I was by any measure,
Speaker 3: just better, And I just think it's kind of intoxicating.
Speaker 2: I'm curious about your perspective now, having worked so much
Speaker 2: with Joni, who's eighty, and Tish is now you just
Speaker 2: turned eighteen, right, yeah, Sos is eighteen, and then Brandy,
Speaker 2: you're somewhere in the middle. I don't want to out you,
Speaker 2: but like, what has that made you think about the
Speaker 2: lifespan of emotional life?
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's weird. It kind of begins and ends similarly.
Speaker 3: I've seen that happen. It's like this rainbow of starting
Speaker 3: with a really strong sense of self, an impermeable sense
Speaker 3: of self, and then ending with a really strong and
Speaker 3: permeable sense of self and how those two shining moments
Speaker 3: might actually be thes that we ever shine. It might
Speaker 3: actually be the time that we're most important to the world,
Speaker 3: and those are the times we get listened to the
Speaker 3: least when we're either too young or too old. So
Speaker 3: I really do see this just incredible commonality. And that's
Speaker 3: why I've really loved drawing young people to Jony physically
Speaker 3: to Joni, to her to sit at her feet within
Speaker 3: a guitar and sing their songs for her, like in
Speaker 3: her living room, and watch that exchange of purity and
Speaker 3: energy and knowing that, like, yeah, this might actually be
Speaker 3: a sweet spot.
Speaker 2: Can you tell us about any like, any young artists
Speaker 2: that you've brought to collaborate with Joni or just to
Speaker 2: sit with her play with her.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I mean just the most recent one would
Speaker 3: just be at the Grammys, just being on that floor
Speaker 3: with Joan and seeing all these incredible young songwriters. And
Speaker 3: I do think I'm not being hyperbolic when I say
Speaker 3: I think we're in a real moment, like a Laurel
Speaker 3: Canyon level moment of self revelation and songwriting and Tish
Speaker 3: is a huge part of this, like I think one
Speaker 3: of the strongest, most powerful voices doing it, And so
Speaker 3: I really want her ep to be heard by people
Speaker 3: of all ages, because I think she's very important. But
Speaker 3: sitting on the floor of the Grammys and watching those
Speaker 3: young artists wreck, they knew it. They knew before we
Speaker 3: got there. They have her lyrics tattooed on their arms
Speaker 3: and shit, you know, Like Gracie Abrams walked up to
Speaker 3: me and she said something about how she likes my
Speaker 3: music or whatever, and I completely shrugged it off. I
Speaker 3: didn't even like actually had to write her something and apologize.
Speaker 3: I just immediately knew what you need, what you're here for, honestly,
Speaker 3: is to be introduced to Joni, you know. So I
Speaker 3: just like didn't even listen to her. I just took
Speaker 3: her by the hand that I said, Jony, this is
Speaker 3: a beautiful songwriter, this is a beautiful young person that
Speaker 3: you mean really a lot to and I want to
Speaker 3: introduce you guys. And so Jennie was lovely and they
Speaker 3: took a picture and it. You became a big moment
Speaker 3: for Gracie in her life. And I've got to facilitate
Speaker 3: a few of those moments of like full circle connectedness
Speaker 3: between the two souls that know who they are and
Speaker 3: get listened to the least, the oldest and the youngest.
Speaker 2: That's so incredible.
Speaker 3: Yeah, we've seen it happen, you know. The Joni jams
Speaker 3: have been really cool. And I remember watching Maggie Rodgers
Speaker 3: have the same experience and Harry Styles have the same experience,
Speaker 3: and then we've all had the same experience. You know.
Speaker 3: I think that bringing older and younger people together is
Speaker 3: like paramount and it finally feels possible.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it was just so special seeing Brandy introduce Joni
Speaker 4: and being so close to her, and then seeing like
Speaker 4: the entire musical family that I've been introduced to just
Speaker 4: these past couple of years and spent so much time
Speaker 4: with on stage with her while she's which like Joni
Speaker 4: Mitchell is like the start of all the songwriting that
Speaker 4: everyone's doing. And I feel like, like Brandy said, what
Speaker 4: everyone's really returning back to now and then they're seeing
Speaker 4: both sides now. I was like it was just all
Speaker 4: too like I just lost it and I did not
Speaker 4: recover for like, I just had to sit there in
Speaker 4: silence afterwards.
Speaker 3: So I wish you'd been there with me.
Speaker 5: I know I was.
Speaker 4: I said I wasn't there, like I was telling my mom,
Speaker 4: I was like, I feel like I should have been there,
Speaker 4: Like it feels like that I was supposed to be there.
Speaker 5: But there'll be another opportunity, I hope.
Speaker 2: Dude.
Speaker 3: It was pretty special.
Speaker 2: She's come up more in Broken Record conversations and interviews
Speaker 2: than any other artist, hands down, from every genre. Everybody
Speaker 2: always references Joni Mitchell, and it's just it's just incredible,
Speaker 2: the power and the reach.
Speaker 3: She's like poet Laureette, like for our entire industry, Like
Speaker 3: there's everybody can recognize themselves in her in one way
Speaker 3: or another, and she's just like cool.
Speaker 2: Do you think she gets it or it doesn't matter if.
Speaker 3: She accepts it And she gets it, but she's not
Speaker 3: heady about it, like she doesn't want to dissect it.
Speaker 3: She just wants to like be Joni Mitchell. And there's
Speaker 3: just something not unlike you Tish, very steady about Joan nowadays.
Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you Brandy for bringing her back into public life.
Speaker 3: Oh my god, I'm just got I'm like, I'm Robin Man,
Speaker 3: She's Batman. I'm following her around, just going this is
Speaker 3: the coolest shit I've ever seen.
Speaker 2: It's so cool how it's developed. I've heard you tell
Speaker 2: the whole story about how at first you weren't like
Speaker 2: the biggest fan when you were first getting together with
Speaker 2: Catherine right, and Catherine was like red flag, like, how
Speaker 2: can you not be into Joni Mitchell?
Speaker 3: Yeah, Well it speaks to this exact thing that Tish
Speaker 3: is so good at and so aware of that I
Speaker 3: wasn't aware of, which is that Joni Mitchell smacked of
Speaker 3: vulnerability to me, and that made me very uncomfortable. It
Speaker 3: made me uncomfortable. I was uncomfortable with my feelings. I
Speaker 3: was uncomfortable with my gender, and Joni kind of like
Speaker 3: opening herself up for the whole world to see made
Speaker 3: me feel like I would have to do that too
Speaker 3: if I listened for too long. And I wanted to
Speaker 3: be a different kind of artist at that time, and
Speaker 3: so I was a late bloomer. And I'm so envious
Speaker 3: of the fact that there's this whole wave of songwriters
Speaker 3: now that are not late bloomers and that have accepted
Speaker 3: the gift of their feelings destigmatized by this person, whereas
Speaker 3: I was rejecting it. And when I stopped rejecting it.
Speaker 3: It made me ready for a lot of what happened
Speaker 3: to me then in my life, you know, from getting
Speaker 3: married to being a mother. I'm not saying Joni Mitchell
Speaker 3: made all those things possible. I'm just saying she was
Speaker 3: one of the steps along the way that made it
Speaker 3: so that I could actually accept that I was a
Speaker 3: feeling person.
Speaker 2: It's incredible you have one thing to sort of point
Speaker 2: to that started the domino effect.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and then it ended this way that it ended
Speaker 3: with me actually being able to be by her side
Speaker 3: in times that she's vulnerable.
Speaker 2: You know. Yeah, pretty cool, super cool. So when you
Speaker 2: were starting to record Tish's EP, did you Brandy bring
Speaker 2: any sounds or any music that you wanted Tish to
Speaker 2: hear and same Tish. Did you bring anything to Brandy
Speaker 2: that you wanted sort of like reference pieces?
Speaker 3: Tish did.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I wrot a lot, Like I think that was
Speaker 4: like a helpful Like I think Brandy and I were
Speaker 4: on this page like from the very beginning about recording.
Speaker 4: I think part of the reason was because I had
Speaker 4: so many different reference people because I'm just like a fangirl,
Speaker 4: like I just I go to so many concerts, and
Speaker 4: I'm such a fan of all of these artists, and
Speaker 4: so I didn't think too much about it. But I
Speaker 4: just brought in like a playlist of songs that was like,
Speaker 4: like my like the clearness of Lizzie mccapine's vocals, I
Speaker 4: would really like my vocals and stuff like that, or
Speaker 4: like the drums in this song, or like the guitar
Speaker 4: in this song, or the feeling of this song, the
Speaker 4: outro of this song. I think that directed the production
Speaker 4: of Law, especially on like the day when we were
Speaker 4: tracking it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Tish really knows, like really knows what she likes
Speaker 3: and is very clear, Like she doesn't just send you
Speaker 3: a song and go, how do you feel when you
Speaker 3: listen to this? She goes, I want you to listen
Speaker 3: to this vocal sound, and I want you to hear
Speaker 3: this outro this many bars in and you know it's
Speaker 3: not even the guitar, it's the bell that you barely
Speaker 3: hear in the outro. Like she's that specific about my God. Yeah,
Speaker 3: production sounds and styles. I think you'll be a producer
Speaker 3: or self produced some day too.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 4: I listened to the end of Scott Street by Phoebe
Speaker 4: Bridgers and I was like, just listen to the child
Speaker 4: the bell that's like that's like representing her childhood, and
Speaker 4: like the little hard like the bike.
Speaker 5: Oh my god.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I was like that feeling like that's how I
Speaker 4: wanted the sober outro to feel like that emotional or
Speaker 4: like that, like that one sound just brings you back
Speaker 4: to like your childhood Street, which is like exactly what
Speaker 4: that song does. Like, there's a couple songs that I
Speaker 4: just don't let myself listen to very often because I
Speaker 4: like don't want to get sick of them, and I
Speaker 4: also don't want to feel sad.
Speaker 5: And Scott Street is one of those songs.
Speaker 3: My god, you love that song.
Speaker 5: It's so good.
Speaker 3: Yeah. And it was cool because No, I didn't bring
Speaker 3: any references to the table and tell she would play
Speaker 3: me those things, because what would happened is, you know,
Speaker 3: I already felt a little underqualified to be the producer
Speaker 3: for Tish on this project, just because I felt like,
Speaker 3: sonically and just age wise that she was kind of
Speaker 3: in a realm that I didn't really understand yet, you know.
Speaker 3: And so when she started playing me Phoebe Bridgers, I'd
Speaker 3: be like, oh, you like this, check out Elliot Smith
Speaker 3: or you know, she'd play me these bands and I'd
Speaker 3: be like, oh, you wait until I introduce you to
Speaker 3: Team Dresh and Slater Kenny. Well, we're about to get
Speaker 3: all up in the butchies now, and like you're gonna
Speaker 3: listen to this music you know from like Portland and Seattle.
Speaker 3: That was like in my foundations, and I realized that,
Speaker 3: like it kind of we kind of have the same heroes,
Speaker 3: even if they're separated by a generation or two. Music
Speaker 3: is so ahless that you can just sort of come
Speaker 3: across those divides if you can see who influenced too.
Speaker 3: So it was really cool.
Speaker 2: Yeah, what did you think of the older stuff, Tish?
Speaker 4: I mean, I'm like such a music nerd that, like
Speaker 4: I like was well aware of like Elliott being such
Speaker 4: like an influence to Phoebe. Like I just like do
Speaker 4: like I just do research when like I just know
Speaker 4: it's it's horrible. I just am like constantly doing research
Speaker 4: on everyone's like personal life of like the musicians that
Speaker 4: I know and like their influences. So I knew that,
Speaker 4: but there's a lot of stuff that like you wouldn't
Speaker 4: think that it related. Like remember when you showed me
Speaker 4: to call your girlfriend's song that was like a cover
Speaker 4: of another song, and it's like, I don't even remember
Speaker 4: what song you were, Like, Oh, this is influenced by that,
Speaker 4: But there's so many different aspects of it that like connected.
Speaker 5: And you wouldn't expect it to.
Speaker 4: Yeah, but yeah, I think that like Phoebe's influences being
Speaker 4: Brandy's influences.
Speaker 5: I think that that pipeline was really cool.
Speaker 3: It revealed itself in the studio and it made me
Speaker 3: feel so cool, Like I felt suddenly so capable of
Speaker 3: doing the job and not letting Tish down because not
Speaker 3: only did I know what she was wanting, but I
Speaker 3: knew where it came from even And that is something
Speaker 3: I'm going to take forward with me forever, is to
Speaker 3: not have that kind of an adequacy creep in to
Speaker 3: my thinking anymore. Mm hmm.
Speaker 2: I saw Brandy. Your name is all over the credits
Speaker 2: on the EP. You're playing dulcimer, you're playing banjo, acoustic guitar,
Speaker 2: electric guitar, backup vocals. Can you describe your approach as
Speaker 2: a producer. A producer can mean so many things. Yeah,
Speaker 2: how do you approach the job?
Speaker 3: Well, it's so by artist. You know, I've had projects
Speaker 3: I've produced where I haven't touched an instrument. I'm not
Speaker 3: a ficionado. I'm not an engineer, So I have like
Speaker 3: a few engineers that I just they're like limbs to me.
Speaker 3: I love them and trust them so much. With Tish, though,
Speaker 3: it's because it's always by artist, like per artist. It
Speaker 3: was like a totally unique process where we basically started
Speaker 3: one day at Shangri La, which is the last place
Speaker 3: I was when I did this podcast. We started in
Speaker 3: one day and we got basic tracks where we tried
Speaker 3: to like strap this band to Tish's innate rhythm while
Speaker 3: she played guitar, and we kind of created basic tracks.
Speaker 3: Some we used, some we didn't. When we left Shangri La,
Speaker 3: we came to Seattle in this weird little treehouse room
Speaker 3: that you see up here, and we just basically became
Speaker 3: mixologists like alchemists building rocket ships and turning metal into
Speaker 3: other metals, and we just created sounds together. So I'm
Speaker 3: on there like as playing instruments, but really what it
Speaker 3: was was just both of us experimenting with instruments we
Speaker 3: didn't even really fully know how to play all the time.
Speaker 3: And I love when those kinds of sounds come across.
Speaker 3: You can't fake that shit. You can't fake that seeking ambiance.
Speaker 3: And that's one of my favorite parts about this record
Speaker 3: is you just hear scratches and pings and sounds that
Speaker 3: aren't accidents, that are found in joy and fun.
Speaker 2: And how about you, Brandy, are you starting to work
Speaker 2: on your own stuff?
Speaker 3: I just finished a project that is like monumental for
Speaker 3: me that I can't talk about but you'll find out
Speaker 3: about very soon. And I did some of the great,
Speaker 3: my opinion, the most important writing I've ever done, and
Speaker 3: I feel very satisfied as a writer in that sense.
Speaker 3: I can't believe the things that got accomplished in that
Speaker 3: three weeks.
Speaker 2: Is it a collaboration album with an older artist who
Speaker 2: we all know and love it very well? Maybe a
Speaker 2: legacy artist, Wow, that's incredible.
Speaker 3: But there is nothing legacy about it. It's it's very
Speaker 3: here and now and just enormous.
Speaker 2: That's exciting.
Speaker 3: It's very exciting. So that's like my next like big project,
Speaker 3: and then after that, I'm gonna rediscover who Brandy Carlile is.
Speaker 3: Like everything like I want to do. I want different hair,
Speaker 3: I want different clothes.
Speaker 2: Dude, you have good hair right now?
Speaker 3: Oh do I I'm wondering. Like I tried a new
Speaker 3: thing at the Grammys. I liked it, but.
Speaker 4: Oh my god, I was like, I was like, I
Speaker 4: thought I was watching like a rerun of an old
Speaker 4: Grammys or something, because your hair was so different. Like
Speaker 4: I thought it looked great, but I was like, wait, like,
Speaker 4: I like didn't even recognize you for a second.
Speaker 3: I'm trying to figure out who I am next. I
Speaker 3: don't know you know, I know who you are. That's
Speaker 3: why I'm not taking any more production rolls for a while.
Speaker 3: I'm gonna figure it out, though. Tish you could tell
Speaker 3: me who I am next, or at least give me
Speaker 3: some tips on a haircut.
Speaker 2: How are you feeling about everybody doing country albums all
Speaker 2: of a sudden, Like Beyonce just announced she's doing her
Speaker 2: country album and Lana del Rey's doing a country album.
Speaker 3: Well, I think that country music as an institution is
Speaker 3: fundamentally broken. So just tell you how I really feel
Speaker 3: about that. I think it's a problem. It's a cultural
Speaker 3: problem we have in America is the way that that
Speaker 3: genre has played itself out as an ostracizing political tool
Speaker 3: in a way to divide people. I'm not okay with it.
Speaker 3: I don't like country radio as it pertains to music
Speaker 3: and culture. I'm a country person, you know. I'm a
Speaker 3: chicken farming, fisherman, cowgirl, and I love rural music, rural lyrics,
Speaker 3: Americana music, roots music, folk music, and I love how
Speaker 3: marginalized people, particularly people of color, are the architects of
Speaker 3: that kind of music. So whenever Beyonce says she's doing
Speaker 3: a country album, I'm willing to rethink my feelings about
Speaker 3: country from the foundation up. And I would think that
Speaker 3: if anybody could change it, I would damn sure bet
Speaker 3: it'd be her, So go, go, go bag. But I
Speaker 3: appreciate the idea of changing it more than the idea
Speaker 3: of joining.
Speaker 1: We're gonna take a quick break and then come back
Speaker 1: with more from Lee Rose, Tish Melton, and Brandy Carlile.
Speaker 1: We're back with more from Tish Melton in Brandy Carlile.
Speaker 2: Is the Chase the first song on the EP. Yeah,
Speaker 2: there's a little i think it's thirty second little synth
Speaker 2: intro and it really feels like you're opening a door
Speaker 2: and walking into Tish's world. It's sort of like this
Speaker 2: little like transitory little piece and then the song starts
Speaker 2: is But I want to hear your intention with that.
Speaker 5: I'm so glad you said that.
Speaker 4: I like have an obsession with intros and outros, like
Speaker 4: I feel like they're the most important part of a song,
Speaker 4: because I do, like I don't know, there's like a
Speaker 4: structure of a song that like I don't follow all
Speaker 4: the time, but I follow a lot of the time,
Speaker 4: and like that gets like boring to me, So like
Speaker 4: either I change up the structure or I put like
Speaker 4: a weird intro on it. We were like back and
Speaker 4: forth on the intro because I remember, we're like, Okay,
Speaker 4: it doesn't.
Speaker 5: Fit the song.
Speaker 4: We're taking it out because we want it to be
Speaker 4: more grungey. But then like the nineties intro, I just
Speaker 4: love SYNTHI intros, like the outro of sober Rue, or
Speaker 4: like the big like world that it creates, Like I
Speaker 4: don't think that any of those songs would be the
Speaker 4: same without one. Yeah, And then I also just think
Speaker 4: it makes the chase more fun and unexpected, like you
Speaker 4: just don't expect that, Like I don't know you expect
Speaker 4: a nineties sounding like synth song. And then like the
Speaker 4: guitar like the muddy guitar starts, and I just think
Speaker 4: it changes.
Speaker 3: It a lot. Yeah, it does, it totally does. I
Speaker 3: remember like going back and forth on that intro, and
Speaker 3: like most things as a producer, I default to the
Speaker 3: artist's certainty. When they are certain, that's when you have
Speaker 3: to acquiesce itce becomes really important. And I thought, like,
Speaker 3: you know, I'm from Seattle. I thought the chase sounded
Speaker 3: like it started like a Nirvana song, like it's right,
Speaker 3: go good, got god guy. You know, it just felt
Speaker 3: to me just scaragey and I loved that this like
Speaker 3: EPI started out that way, you know, but then it's
Speaker 3: like then the artist comes along, they tell you who
Speaker 3: they are. And Tish's genuinely loves the cinematic intros and outros,
Speaker 3: and she loved this intro. So we started pulling each
Speaker 3: other across the center line, you know, when I when
Speaker 3: I had to be faced with the fact that this
Speaker 3: thing was wanted. On the beginning of this EP, I
Speaker 3: had just started getting, well, what don't I like about
Speaker 3: it exactly? Why does it bother me? And so we
Speaker 3: started pulling a few elements out and adding a few
Speaker 3: elements in and I think by the end of it,
Speaker 3: I think that the beaker just got filled with the
Speaker 3: right kind of solution and it fit and she was
Speaker 3: right about it. Of course she's right about it.
Speaker 1: It's her.
Speaker 4: It's also so bold, Like at first, if I put
Speaker 4: like a big, like cinematic intro or outro on a song,
Speaker 4: I was word that people would be like, oh, like,
Speaker 4: who does she think she is?
Speaker 5: Whatever?
Speaker 4: But it's like I hope people say that, like I
Speaker 4: hope I'd do like bold things and people are like
Speaker 4: taking it back by it a bit.
Speaker 3: God, you hope people say that.
Speaker 5: Yeah, Like I don't know.
Speaker 3: I love that.
Speaker 4: I think that that's like a like I want to
Speaker 4: do bold things or like things that aren't expected. That's
Speaker 4: also why like like that these specific songs are on
Speaker 4: the EP because all of them are so different. And
Speaker 4: it's like I was just talking about how since I'm
Speaker 4: so new, everything feels like a first impression, which is
Speaker 4: that's why there's a lot of pressure putting out a
Speaker 4: first song because all the songs are so different. But like,
Speaker 4: I don't think that there's any one impression of me
Speaker 4: that you get on the EP other than like I'm
Speaker 4: experimenting to and like, I have so many different feelings
Speaker 4: and things that I want to say yep, and all
Speaker 4: of these songs are so different because there's so many
Speaker 4: different things that I want to do and I just
Speaker 4: want to do them.
Speaker 3: No, it's amazing. That's what comes across. Like there's a
Speaker 3: through line, which is that you can hear that this
Speaker 3: is authentically one artist. It's one artist, but it doesn't
Speaker 3: ever get mired in the one thing, Like one thing
Speaker 3: is epic, one thing's a heartbreaking ballad. One of these
Speaker 3: things is like of just like a ramone song. So
Speaker 3: these there's no, it's not erratic, there's a through line,
Speaker 3: but it's also like you can't skip any of these
Speaker 3: songs because each one is such a different journey. For
Speaker 3: only a five song collection, it's quite epic. That's one
Speaker 3: of the reasons I thought, oh God, maybe it needs
Speaker 3: to be an album, because we need more time to
Speaker 3: even out these like spikes and dives that are in
Speaker 3: this thing, and that the only real through line is
Speaker 3: your steady rhythm guitar playing and your steady voice. But
Speaker 3: then I started to really like that. You know, it's
Speaker 3: like the Boy Genius record I think achieves that really well,
Speaker 3: where you know, you've got cool about it, and then
Speaker 3: you've got true Blue, and then you've got strong enough
Speaker 3: and you got that the begin song at the beginning.
Speaker 3: You know, they're all so different, but that's three songwriters
Speaker 3: behaving three different ways, and you're one songwriter. But you
Speaker 3: definitely have the ability to kind of head down some
Speaker 3: interesting tributaries. I think because of who influences you. And
Speaker 3: one thing about it is, no matter which tributary you
Speaker 3: go down and how turbulent it is, you are still steady.
Speaker 3: I don't know about that word. We keep using that word, tish,
Speaker 3: What do you think about it?
Speaker 5: I like it.
Speaker 4: I just don't want I get worried that it's like, oh,
Speaker 4: like boring, like like I want to like make unexpect
Speaker 4: Like it's like there's like a part of me that
Speaker 4: remain steady, But I don't want that to get confused
Speaker 4: with like the same all the time.
Speaker 3: I would say steady. I would say that about The Cure,
Speaker 3: and I would say that about Bruce Springsteen, like it's reliable.
Speaker 3: Well yeah, and it's like it's immovable, is what it is?
Speaker 3: Like you know that, like as an audience member, you're
Speaker 3: not affecting the way Bruce Springsteen performs, he's doing that.
Speaker 3: You know, it's not to be confused with placid or linear.
Speaker 3: It's just immovable. It's just formidable. Yeah, maybe we need
Speaker 3: to come up with a different word other than steady,
Speaker 3: But for some reason, that just always like neon lights
Speaker 3: in my head.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I want to ask you about the song, Michelle.
Speaker 2: It's a song about friendship. You know, when a friendship dissolves,
Speaker 2: it can be as heartbreaking as a romantic relationship breaking up.
Speaker 2: It's especially intense when you're a teenager, but it's also
Speaker 2: intense in middle age. How did that song come to be?
Speaker 4: Actually wrote that song, Like two of my friends had
Speaker 4: like a really weird like giving from one person and
Speaker 4: taking from another person. But it kind of helped me
Speaker 4: really understand one of their perspectives, because I think a
Speaker 4: lot of teenage relationships is like feeling like you're too
Speaker 4: much or like feeling so much for that person and
Speaker 4: you don't know how to express that in a way
Speaker 4: that doesn't put too much pressure on them like that,
Speaker 4: Like the narrator was just giving too much to Michelle.
Speaker 4: And it's not Michelle's fault for not reciprocating it, because
Speaker 4: she like she's her own person and like it's not
Speaker 4: her job too, But then you also just feel both
Speaker 4: so bad for both parties in the story, which I
Speaker 4: like about it because I think there's really no right answer,
Speaker 4: especially in like girl friendships where there's so much like passion.
Speaker 3: There, which are so intense.
Speaker 4: It's so intense, like those like my most intense relationships
Speaker 4: have been like girl friendships, which like it's like hard
Speaker 4: to differentiate between what's like feelings that like you just
Speaker 4: like don't like don't explain, or like what's like actually
Speaker 4: just like a queer like like there's so much, so
Speaker 4: many layers to it, but like that came from me
Speaker 4: just trying to better understand one of my friends.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Brandy, were you able to relate to that song
Speaker 2: with your own experience with friendships changing as you've gotten
Speaker 2: older or maybe as you've gotten more successful.
Speaker 3: I mean absolutely, it's like it's already strange, you know,
Speaker 3: when you're queer to try and figure out what, identify,
Speaker 3: what those feelings are, where they're coming from, how you
Speaker 3: want to move forward with it, and those friendships change.
Speaker 3: I mean, like you know, I'm a lesbian, Like we
Speaker 3: literally like wind up married to each other's partners and shit,
Speaker 3: and like staying best friends with our ex and it's like,
Speaker 3: these friendships get really ambiguous. So a song I'll write
Speaker 3: about a totally platonic relationship might wind up being romantic
Speaker 3: eventually and then platonic again. So yeah, I think that. Yeah,
Speaker 3: that's one thing Tish that's so ageless is that friendships
Speaker 3: and connections between women and queer people are so bizarre
Speaker 3: and unquantifiable, and you like, yeah, you might find yourself
Speaker 3: in love with Michelle someday, you might find yourself being
Speaker 3: Michelle someday, and then that song just changes, It just changes,
Speaker 3: and it fits you, like this new coat that you
Speaker 3: do or don't want to wear, but it's on you,
Speaker 3: you know. Yeah, And I've written songs about a romantic
Speaker 3: relationship and then ten years later, someone I know dies
Speaker 3: and I realized that that song was actually written about
Speaker 3: that moment that I didn't even know what exists yet.
Speaker 3: It's such a funny thing what songs do to you
Speaker 3: throughout life, because they're like little pieces of your soul
Speaker 3: and you don't realize it, but like you're going to
Speaker 3: repeat all of these thoughts and mistakes and it's not
Speaker 3: that we can't grow or change. It's just that we don't.
Speaker 2: Yeah. So when you say that you write a song
Speaker 2: and then later it morphs into a different meeting, is
Speaker 2: it like a premonition?
Speaker 3: I think it might be something. Yeah, Like I'm not
Speaker 3: going to get too into it, like because I'll sound crazy,
Speaker 3: but I'm not totally sure that time is. We've talked
Speaker 3: about this too.
Speaker 4: Tish Gosh, I was just thinking about this other day.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Sometimes I think we're just remembering when we think
Speaker 3: we're like arrogant enough to be manifesting something for ourselves,
Speaker 3: that we're just remembering it, you know. And like I
Speaker 3: wrote a song called Cannonball one time about one of
Speaker 3: my like high school best friends that was off to
Speaker 3: do his second tour in Iraq, and then ten years
Speaker 3: later I fell in love. I had an unrequited love
Speaker 3: affair with someone, and I suddenly realized Cannonball could only
Speaker 3: have ever been about that, you know, and it wasn't
Speaker 3: even related.
Speaker 2: Or so a totally different person, totally different person, but
Speaker 2: I was still me.
Speaker 3: So the feelings I was having of anxiety and unrequited
Speaker 3: love would just fit this new, totally different scenario. So
Speaker 3: it's like you think you're writing about Michelle or Michelle's friend,
Speaker 3: but it's like it really is you.
Speaker 4: Yeah, And a lot of the times for me, like
Speaker 4: like people ask me a lot who specific song is about,
Speaker 4: and I have clear answers for a lot of them.
Speaker 4: But like a lot of times it was like I
Speaker 4: was feeling like I want a song to feel a
Speaker 4: certain way, and it like I can't, Like when I
Speaker 4: think of Sober, like I don't think of one person
Speaker 4: that I wrote it about. Like it's like I was
Speaker 4: so obsessed with capturing a specific feeling with that song
Speaker 4: that I completely forgot to write it to anybody or
Speaker 4: for anyone, which, like I feel like a lot of
Speaker 4: people say that that's like the opposite thing to do,
Speaker 4: Like I know, I think it was like Elizabeth Gilbert
Speaker 4: who said, like, when you're writing, always write to somebody
Speaker 4: or like specifically for somebody, But that's just like not
Speaker 4: I don't do that very often. Maybe it's like too
Speaker 4: vulnerable or something. But like a lot of times I'm
Speaker 4: writing about a feeling rather than a person or an experience.
Speaker 3: Wow, and then knowing it could change.
Speaker 4: Yeah, Like I'm sure Sober will like have an entirely
Speaker 4: different meaning I.
Speaker 3: Feel like as a bird's eye view a person having
Speaker 3: a bird's i view to that song. You know you
Speaker 3: are addressing imposter syndrome in the end when you're reading
Speaker 3: the Leonard Cohen poem. You live in a household and
Speaker 3: have grown up in a family where sobriety is an
Speaker 3: issue about you know, we're both like alan On kids.
Speaker 3: So I recognize that when I see it. You're young,
Speaker 3: and all your friends are starting to want to be
Speaker 3: intoxicated during all their celebrations and their events. And there
Speaker 3: are probably things about that because you're an insightful person
Speaker 3: that you want to remember without that sene of you know,
Speaker 3: intoxication over it. And so you have all these different
Speaker 3: reasons to write a song like that, and you never
Speaker 3: really need to explain the mystery to anybody. Those are
Speaker 3: all true things floating around in the ether for you.
Speaker 2: Yeah, as songwriters, do you think if you explain too
Speaker 2: much about your songs or the inspirations behind your songs,
Speaker 2: that it takes something away from the writing.
Speaker 4: That's happened to me like when an artist does that.
Speaker 4: So I'm just like, I try to keep from doing
Speaker 4: that because there's this one Adrian Lanker song that I
Speaker 4: thought was like the most romantic song ever, and then
Speaker 4: I go on genius lyrics and she's explaining that it's
Speaker 4: like literally about like depression and like loving someone too
Speaker 4: much that like they don't love you back. And now
Speaker 4: it's like changed my perception of the song so much
Speaker 4: that I like, it's like bumps me out every time
Speaker 4: I listened to it, even though I thought it was
Speaker 4: just a really cute love song. So I am very
Speaker 4: aware of that, and I try not to explain it
Speaker 4: too much, but obviously, I mean, I think songs take
Speaker 4: different meanings for different people. So yeah, it's either like
Speaker 4: reminding everyone that even if I explain it a certain way,
Speaker 4: they can interpret it entirely differently, or just not explain
Speaker 4: it too much.
Speaker 5: So they don't lose like any of their meaning that
Speaker 5: they found in it.
Speaker 3: And this is hard to get your head around. You
Speaker 3: might also be the one that's most wrong about what
Speaker 3: your song is about, right because you're the closest to it,
Speaker 3: and that, like people who are fascinated with your music,
Speaker 3: you might be more right about what that girl wrote
Speaker 3: the song about than she is.
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's like that's like damage, Like it was so
Speaker 4: vulnerable for me that I was like, it's not about
Speaker 4: a person. It's not about a person, Like, it's not
Speaker 4: about a person, it's about a feeling. Like you guys
Speaker 4: are wrong about that. And then finally I was like,
Speaker 4: all right, like it's about this one's with a big person.
Speaker 4: I was just too scared to say that because it's
Speaker 4: like too vulnerable of a song.
Speaker 3: And you don't have to ever say that if you
Speaker 3: don't want to, you know what I mean, You can
Speaker 3: like almost you start to get this in practice about it.
Speaker 3: Like there are people that have different philosophies about like
Speaker 3: Bernie Toppin who's one of my favorite lyricists of all time,
Speaker 3: hero every Elton Johnson, but he's a fantastical lyrist like lyricist,
Speaker 3: so it's like never really super self exposing with him,
Speaker 3: it's just kind of like fantasy. But he is adamant
Speaker 3: that you never explain your lyrics because it'll start to
Speaker 3: kind of dissolve your ability to connect to the other side,
Speaker 3: like to the ether. Like if you intellectualize your gifts
Speaker 3: that are coming in from a source, that you might
Speaker 3: actually not be able to understand them as clearly, almost
Speaker 3: like a clairvoyant or a medium or something I really
Speaker 3: subscribe to, that you might start to intellectualize the gifts
Speaker 3: that are so abstract and so esoteric so much that
Speaker 3: you stop being able to understand the childlike thing that's
Speaker 3: coming to you without you really understanding it. So as
Speaker 3: you strive to understand it, you kind of erode at
Speaker 3: the purity of it. You know that sounds kind of
Speaker 3: high minded, but it's what happens.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Tish, are you always Are you the type of
Speaker 2: songwriter who's always writing or do you have like what's
Speaker 2: your process? Do you sit and are you intentional about it?
Speaker 2: Or do things come to you and you have to
Speaker 2: quickly get it down.
Speaker 4: I mean, I always have my phone that like has
Speaker 4: note like my notes app. So if ever, like anything
Speaker 4: comes to me when I'm like just walking around, I'll
Speaker 4: put it in there. But a lot of times I'll
Speaker 4: spend like weeks just writing down like individual lines I
Speaker 4: think are cool, and then I feel like I'm being
Speaker 4: productive because I'm like, oh, I have one line of
Speaker 4: a song that could turn into a song. So eventually
Speaker 4: I have to sit myself down in like the quiet
Speaker 4: of my room and look back at all of like
Speaker 4: the notes app that I've been collecting, and a lot
Speaker 4: of times I can combine them because I'll go through
Speaker 4: times when I'm like feeling the same thing for a
Speaker 4: really long time and then eventually a song comes out
Speaker 4: of it. But most of the time I have to
Speaker 4: be very intentional about it, or else I just won't
Speaker 4: sit down and do it.
Speaker 2: And how about you, Brandy, how does your do you
Speaker 2: have a relationship with amused? Do you feel like things
Speaker 2: come to you at certain points?
Speaker 3: Yeah, but I have to like sit down and open
Speaker 3: myself up to it for a few weeks or something,
Speaker 3: you know, and just try to turn off all the
Speaker 3: other hats because I just am so passionate about other
Speaker 3: people and so many other things, and you know, I
Speaker 3: can get really righteously caught up in stuff like Tesh's music,
Speaker 3: you know, and other people's things. And I think that's good,
Speaker 3: a good thing for me, because one thing I trust
Speaker 3: is that the muse is always there and whenever I'm
Speaker 3: ready to sit down and listen, that the idea has
Speaker 3: come to me. So I've never actually been blocked. But
Speaker 3: I'll go two years and not write a song. It
Speaker 3: was two years before I wrote Between the Joke and
Speaker 3: Right on time, you know, And it was just like
Speaker 3: I just trusted it, just trusted it would come back,
Speaker 3: and I and I trust it'll come back again when
Speaker 3: I when I'm ready for it.
Speaker 2: Do you have specific conditions that you have to create?
Speaker 3: I mean, to be totally honest with you, I'm just
Speaker 3: not a mystical person and I just like it. But
Speaker 3: this has got to go away the phone. If this
Speaker 3: is anywhere within reach, it ain't gonna happen. And I've
Speaker 3: accepted that, you know, because I remember before those things.
Speaker 3: You know. In fact, there's these it's really wild. I
Speaker 3: used to write way, way, way more songs, some of
Speaker 3: them really bad. So you know, I don't really write
Speaker 3: too many bad songs anymore, I don't think. But there
Speaker 3: were these two venues, because I spent my whole adult
Speaker 3: life on the road, there were these two venues where
Speaker 3: there's no Wi Fi, no cell service. So it's like
Speaker 3: a big top Chautauqua in Bayfield, Wisconsin and weirdly enough,
Speaker 3: Mishawaka Amphitheater in Colorado and the Rocky Mountains. And every
Speaker 3: time I would play that gig, I would write songs
Speaker 3: in the day, and I started to realize I was
Speaker 3: writing songs on the only day of the tour that
Speaker 3: I didn't have any connected tissue to the outside world.
Speaker 3: And it became this tradition where I go to those
Speaker 3: places and I write songs when I'm on tour.
Speaker 2: It's so cool.
Speaker 3: So yeah, it's really big part of it. It's just
Speaker 3: sounding a cliche, but having a phone.
Speaker 2: What are you getting distracted by? Are you like on
Speaker 2: social media or what's sucking you in?
Speaker 3: Hopefully not social media? I mean more than I'm proud of,
Speaker 3: but I think mostly just I'm so easily activated by
Speaker 3: other people in my community. I love being in my community,
Speaker 3: showing up with people and doing collaborations and jumping out
Speaker 3: on stage in somebody else's show and orchestrating a dinner
Speaker 3: at Jonie's house and being at the GRAM. I mean everything.
Speaker 3: I love it. I love being having friends and being
Speaker 3: in a community and stuff like that because I didn't
Speaker 3: have that when I was in school.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's so I mean, it seems so genuine and
Speaker 2: you seem so happy and like you're genuinely having so
Speaker 2: much fun collaborating with other people. It's so great to
Speaker 2: see because it seems like there's not a lot of
Speaker 2: that anymore. But like you said, I feel like maybe
Speaker 2: it's coming back.
Speaker 3: Yeah, young people are doing it, like really young people
Speaker 3: are doing it, and I'm like, invite me.
Speaker 4: I guess Noah kN is like leading it for like
Speaker 4: that genre, like you could literally collaborate on every single
Speaker 4: song with someone else.
Speaker 5: Yeah, And it's like so I'm like, it's like so.
Speaker 4: New to my generation, but like it's like everything cyclical,
Speaker 4: like it's coming back from like older generations to now.
Speaker 4: But there's like some artists that are like really embracing.
Speaker 3: It, dude.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 3: And I mean I'm not trying to be like sinister
Speaker 3: or sus about this, like and not to do too
Speaker 3: much music industry inside ball, but I kind of feel
Speaker 3: like with streaming, when it became we were getting all
Speaker 3: this label pressure and all this pressure from the DSPs
Speaker 3: to like collaborate artists. This happened like six or seven
Speaker 3: years ago, I think, where it was like you would
Speaker 3: release a song and then the label will want you
Speaker 3: to do the collaboration version of that song, you know,
Speaker 3: and then the streams they calculated on the back end
Speaker 3: the same way, and it would boost your numbers because
Speaker 3: then people would be listening to your version and the
Speaker 3: collaboration version that you did with somebody else. So I
Speaker 3: think it almost started out as like this industry inside
Speaker 3: ball thing for people to do collaborations so they could
Speaker 3: double their streams. But then what it turned in too,
Speaker 3: unbeknownst to the suits, is that it created these fibers
Speaker 3: between people. And now you see these artists that collaborated
Speaker 3: because they got told they had to to get their
Speaker 3: songs listened to. But they started coming to each other's
Speaker 3: birthday parties and they started collaborating then because they wanted to,
Speaker 3: and they joined each other's bands, and they became godfathers
Speaker 3: to each other's children when they were being born. And
Speaker 3: before you know it, there's a real community around something
Speaker 3: that didn't get created for that, but has resulted in that.
Speaker 3: And I think Noah is a really good example of
Speaker 3: somebody that's just doing it because now that's what we do,
Speaker 3: and that's great.
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's just joyful.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I don't know if you both saw the We
Speaker 2: Are the World documentary that was on Netflix.
Speaker 3: I'm all about it. I can't wait to see it
Speaker 3: once see Bop Dylan and that thing.
Speaker 2: It's so excellent and you just get such a sense
Speaker 2: of everybody's personality.
Speaker 3: And really, oh yeah, who's the standout to you?
Speaker 2: Uh? Lionel Richie is like the Paul mccarr andy of
Speaker 2: the It's a big group of people, okay, and Lionel
Speaker 2: is like the leader and organizer. And you get to
Speaker 2: see Quincy at work and the people who had solos,
Speaker 2: they set them up in a horseshoe and they just
Speaker 2: have to step up to the mic and just go.
Speaker 2: And so you get such a sense of their voice
Speaker 2: and their talent and what they're capable of. Wow, and
Speaker 2: it's incredible.
Speaker 3: Whoa are there people that are like really shy and
Speaker 3: then people that are encouraging them.
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, Huey Lewis his legs are shaking and he
Speaker 2: has to sing after Michael Jackson. But it would be
Speaker 2: so cool, Brandy. I feel like you're the one to
Speaker 2: organize this. You should do a new We Are the
Speaker 2: World with this new Laurel Canyon set that you're talking about.
Speaker 3: I'd be like, Lionel, that's actually right. That feels right
Speaker 3: to me. No, that would be so cool. I'm so
Speaker 3: enamored with so many of these artists right now, Like
Speaker 3: I'm just like listening to everything they do. And I'm like,
Speaker 3: holy shit, those lyrics are so smart and oh my god,
Speaker 3: that's so true. And why why weren't we writing about
Speaker 3: our actual lives?
Speaker 5: Then?
Speaker 3: Why were we projecting into the future? Why are we
Speaker 3: trying to keep up with or mimic older people mirror
Speaker 3: older people's lives, Like they're not doing that. And I
Speaker 3: don't think I would have been as exposed to them
Speaker 3: as I have been if it hadn't been for Tish.
Speaker 3: You know, a combination of the fact that they're all
Speaker 3: coming out is completely influenced by Joni and then Tish
Speaker 3: actually sending me all these records and going, this is
Speaker 3: the kind of music I'm making, and this is the
Speaker 3: scene I want to be a part of.
Speaker 1: We're going to pause for our last break and then
Speaker 1: come back with more from Brandy Carlyle and Tish Melton.
Speaker 1: We're back with the rest of Leo Rose's conversation with
Speaker 1: Brandy Carlyle and Tish Melton.
Speaker 2: Tish, tell me about how you actually started playing because
Speaker 2: you started playing guitar first, right, Yeah.
Speaker 4: Someone asked me today, like they're like, what was it
Speaker 4: like picking up a guitar and realizing you were like
Speaker 4: better than a lot of people at doing it, and
Speaker 4: I was like, that is not all what happened, because
Speaker 4: I picked up the guitar and then my mom tried
Speaker 4: to teach me a couple of chords and my fingers
Speaker 4: hurt and I like stormed away because I wasn't good
Speaker 4: at it and like refused to do it again, and
Speaker 4: then COVID hit. I had nothing to do, so I
Speaker 4: was kind of like losing my mind, and my mom
Speaker 4: put the guitar back in my hand and told me
Speaker 4: that she had signed up for lessons, just like remote lessons.
Speaker 4: So the beginning of my music career is definitely like
Speaker 4: against my will a little bit because I was very
Speaker 4: uncomfortable playing the guitar because I had very small hands
Speaker 4: and it was very stressful to work with a stranger.
Speaker 4: But after like three months of playing guitar, I remember
Speaker 4: my mom saying, like, You're much better than I was
Speaker 4: when I played for three months, and so that's when
Speaker 4: I started realizing like, okay, I'm okay at it. And
Speaker 4: then after like about a year, I like was just
Speaker 4: like I was, I was like a good guitar player,
Speaker 4: and I just started like really writing.
Speaker 2: So the songwriting came after learning to play guitar.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 4: I remember I wrote like my first song after Folklore
Speaker 4: came out because I was in Georgia in the mountains
Speaker 4: and I was listening to Folklore on a walk and
Speaker 4: I was like, I need to write, Like I was
Speaker 4: so inspired and I needed to write something. And then
Speaker 4: I didn't show anyone my music because I didn't really
Speaker 4: know how to write a song, and like, if I
Speaker 4: look back at those songs, they're kind of horrible. Like
Speaker 4: I was just really young. And then Lucy Dakis came
Speaker 4: out with Home Video in twenty twenty one, and like,
Speaker 4: after listening to that, I was like, oh, like that's
Speaker 4: how I want to write songs, Like I want to
Speaker 4: be like that, like honest and simple, and so I
Speaker 4: started write, like really really writing after that, and like
Speaker 4: getting brave enough to show my music to other people,
Speaker 4: which just started out being my parents, and they of
Speaker 4: course were like this is incredible, Like this is amazing.
Speaker 4: I didn't really believe anyone that I was good until
Speaker 4: Brandy said, so.
Speaker 3: Oh, what about when you got on stage for the
Speaker 3: first time, did you believe you were good then? Because
Speaker 3: people aren't nice, you know, and especially not in LA
Speaker 3: and for you to get up on stage at the
Speaker 3: Troubadour and get the response that you got. I mean
Speaker 3: hopefully at that point it might have resonated like Okay, no,
Speaker 3: this is I belong here.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 4: I think I knew that I was good for my
Speaker 4: age and like, well, I was like fifteen, and so
Speaker 4: I was like or sixteen, and I was like, I
Speaker 4: know that I'm young enough that people are not gonna boom.
Speaker 4: Like I was like, this will be fine. And I
Speaker 4: also knew that I had been writing for so long
Speaker 4: and performing and I knew that I had something, and
Speaker 4: so it was more like a relief when I got
Speaker 4: off stage and did well that people started like that
Speaker 4: my parents started believing like that I was good, like
Speaker 4: because other people. I got that feedback from other people
Speaker 4: because I was like, I was worried that I wo'd
Speaker 4: mess up or something, and my parents would be like okay,
Speaker 4: Like it was like she's like, ook, She's okay. But
Speaker 4: I just knew that I was gonna do well. Like
Speaker 4: I just wasn't nervous for that for some reason. Mostly
Speaker 4: maybe I was just trying to calm my parents down
Speaker 4: because they were freaking out. I just had to be
Speaker 4: a little bit calmer than they were.
Speaker 2: Do you have any hesitation in writing songs that you're
Speaker 2: going to reveal something that's too intimate that you don't
Speaker 2: want your parents to hear, or you don't want Brandy,
Speaker 2: who's your parents' friend to hear.
Speaker 3: It's good question.
Speaker 4: I mean, I think, like the best thing about music
Speaker 4: is like the feelings that you write about are never
Speaker 4: things that someone else hasn't felt before. So like, if
Speaker 4: I'm writing about a specific feeling, I don't think I'm
Speaker 4: ever scared that to share it. I mean, it's it's
Speaker 4: a vulnerable things. Like if I wrote a song like Damage,
Speaker 4: I didn't show that to anyone for so long because
Speaker 4: it was just like a like revealing that I had
Speaker 4: felt that way was vulnerable, but the actual feeling itself,
Speaker 4: Like I knew that my mom had felt that feeling before,
Speaker 4: like Brandy had felt that feeling, or one of my
Speaker 4: friends or fans or anyone like. I think there's just
Speaker 4: like the universal aspect of songwriting that's what makes it special.
Speaker 3: Yeah, we're all so narcissistic. All we think is I
Speaker 3: can relate to that.
Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly, I won't relate any song.
Speaker 3: At We don't even think about you long enough to go.
Speaker 3: I wonder when she thought that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I know. It's like sometimes I feel like
Speaker 2: I listened to music just to try to learn more
Speaker 2: about myself.
Speaker 3: You know, the song was written for me. Yeah, no,
Speaker 3: I know. It's true. We're human beings, man, We're just critters.
Speaker 3: You're right, we have felt it all before. And that's
Speaker 3: actually that was a really good question that never that
Speaker 3: ever occurred to me. But like, yeah, you know, then
Speaker 3: there's been a strange crossover with me and Tish becoming
Speaker 3: peers but also having this kind of family latitude that's happening. Yeah,
Speaker 3: because me and Kath and Glennon and Abbey, like we're
Speaker 3: all raising daughters, we're all raising kids, you know, so
Speaker 3: we have this connection. But then I think, just out
Speaker 3: of pure unchecked talent, Tish and I have found a
Speaker 3: parallel course that's just different. It's it doesn't cross over,
Speaker 3: you know. I find myself cursing, I use the filthiest
Speaker 3: I have the filthiest mouth, and the things I talk about.
Speaker 3: I'm like a sailor, and I would check myself around
Speaker 3: Tish's brother and sister, but I wouldn't check myself around Tish.
Speaker 3: It's like she's in a band with me or something,
Speaker 3: And I wouldn't even want Glennon and Abbey to know
Speaker 3: that should I talk about or the way I talk,
Speaker 3: because it's different. It's this is these are this is
Speaker 3: another to mention. That's the family dimension. But there's like
Speaker 3: we're rock and rollers, me and Tish, like we have
Speaker 3: this other language that's just sort of ours.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and so many different ways too, because like I
Speaker 4: don't know, I feel like part of the reason why
Speaker 4: I like talking to Brandy with like other people is
Speaker 4: like I feel like no one gets it. It's like
Speaker 4: we're like we like make music together, but like and
Speaker 4: like we have this mental relationship and she's like like
Speaker 4: another mom to me. But like we're also just like friends,
Speaker 4: Like we like went to the boy Ges concert together,
Speaker 4: and we're just like ta like talking like friends. There's
Speaker 4: like so many different aspects of our relationship.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's true, isn't it. It's just as a shell
Speaker 3: like anything's possible.
Speaker 2: Yeah, because I was thinking from your perspective, Brandy, if
Speaker 2: because Tish is your friend's kid, and I have a kid,
Speaker 2: and I know when I get together with other parent
Speaker 2: friends we talk about our kids. But then you don't
Speaker 2: actually have the type of relationship now that you all
Speaker 2: have been in the trenches working together, you never really
Speaker 2: get the opportunity to get that close with them and
Speaker 2: really know them as a person. Yeah.
Speaker 3: And I feel the trust from Glenna and abuy to
Speaker 3: like and even Craig, Like, I feel the trust from
Speaker 3: them that they trust me and Tish's friendship, but also
Speaker 3: that they know that it's not an extension of their parenting.
Speaker 3: Uh huh, It's totally different, and there's trust there because
Speaker 3: they actually can't trust me to implement their parenting in
Speaker 3: my relationship with Tish. Like we're gonna say whatever Tish
Speaker 3: needs to say because it's a different relationship. And that's
Speaker 3: that's actually quite cool. Mm hmm. I've never thought about
Speaker 3: it until just this moment.
Speaker 2: How long did it take you to get comfortable with
Speaker 2: Brandy Tish in the studio in that domain, Like, I'm
Speaker 2: sure it was kind of like, what like super intimidating.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I had like shadowed her for a day or
Speaker 4: two days when she was recording with Brandy Clark. Yeah,
Speaker 4: and so that was when I was kind of getting familiar,
Speaker 4: and I remember being so uncomfortable, Like I was so
Speaker 4: nervous and like didn't know what to do with myself.
Speaker 4: But I think that like I think the second I
Speaker 4: got into the studio to record my songs, like, I
Speaker 4: don't remember feeling any discomfort. Like I just think right
Speaker 4: away I felt very comfortable. And I think it came
Speaker 4: from like just starting out, Brandy and me on the
Speaker 4: couch just playing through my songs and trying to figure
Speaker 4: out if we were on the same page about them.
Speaker 4: I think that helped a lot.
Speaker 3: It also came from you shadowing too, because you saw
Speaker 3: me working with another forty five year old adult, and
Speaker 3: you saw that we change things. We still make changes
Speaker 3: to these songs and to these chords, and then you
Speaker 3: could see that changing things isn't akin to fundamental criticism.
Speaker 3: It's just kind of part of creating. And you know,
Speaker 3: you're like a real artist, so you're not touchy, but
Speaker 3: it means something to you when something gets changed a
Speaker 3: chord or a lyric, you know you have the final word.
Speaker 3: But I sense that just discomfort at first, and that
Speaker 3: discomfort is again, is the tenet of like a true
Speaker 3: is a basic tenet of like a true artist. And
Speaker 3: I think if you hadn't seen those changes, taking place
Speaker 3: with an older artist, you may have been had to
Speaker 3: confront some inadequacies, feelings of inadequacy that wouldn't be accurate,
Speaker 3: but having never seen production unfold before, could totally be
Speaker 3: forgiven and understood. So, yeah, you saw those things happen.
Speaker 3: You saw those changes get implemented. You saw that those
Speaker 3: songs were still Brandy Clarks at the end of the day,
Speaker 3: and that everybody went home happy. And then you and
Speaker 3: I got in the studio, and I think it was
Speaker 3: easier for us to tighten screws and make changes for
Speaker 3: that reason.
Speaker 4: I also think watching you work with another artist, especially
Speaker 4: someone as like talented and like respected as Brandy Clark,
Speaker 4: and then like see how like the level of respect
Speaker 4: or like how seriously you took her was similar to
Speaker 4: how seriously you took me. That was like super important
Speaker 4: for me to know in the beginning, because I'd like
Speaker 4: I didn't know, I didn't know like what like the
Speaker 4: vibe was, Like, I didn't know if it was a
Speaker 4: favor or like a like you know, I think that
Speaker 4: became clear to me in the beginning.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that's really moving for you to even
Speaker 3: say or bring up that you ever wondered if it
Speaker 3: was a favor, and that's like a really cool, really strong,
Speaker 3: and really vulnerable thing to say, And actually the answer
Speaker 3: is absolutely fucking not. You know, I love I love
Speaker 3: you guys, I love your family, But music, like I
Speaker 3: will cut through anyone like a hot knife through butter
Speaker 3: for music to prevail, And unless I really believe that
Speaker 3: it's great and I'm putting good art, you know, into
Speaker 3: the world with the help of a good artist, then
Speaker 3: I would find other ways to support you.
Speaker 2: How much music gets sent to you, Brandy, Like how
Speaker 2: many people are trying to get you to produce them.
Speaker 3: I get asked a lot, especially lately, by my heroes,
Speaker 3: like heroes are coming along, and I have to be
Speaker 3: really careful because I will gladly just jump into their
Speaker 3: skin and live their life like happily. I'll get right
Speaker 3: into it. Their whole cause will become my cause. So
Speaker 3: I have to be really clear about where I'm at
Speaker 3: in my life and if I can afford to do that.
Speaker 3: I think I'm learning as a producer. I don't know
Speaker 3: how to casually make an album. I don't know how
Speaker 3: to not make it a spiritual thing and not become
Speaker 3: really invested in that artist and their music, and then
Speaker 3: how that music is received after the fact, and then
Speaker 3: make sure that people are understanding that how important they
Speaker 3: are to the world. Like I just's a really mission
Speaker 3: based producer. So I do get asked a lot, but
Speaker 3: I really probably couldn't do this more than once or
Speaker 3: twice a year, even if I wanted to.
Speaker 2: How does it affect you outside of the studio if
Speaker 2: you are working with an artist and you're jumping into
Speaker 2: their skin, and then you have to go home and
Speaker 2: deal with everything that goes on at home, raising the kids, marriage,
Speaker 2: how are you able.
Speaker 3: To I usually stuck my wife into it. By the way,
Speaker 3: my life then becomes invested in that person too. Yeah,
Speaker 3: it's just hard, Like yeah, it becomes a family thing,
Speaker 3: like our whole family gets involved, you know, and it's
Speaker 3: just so satisfying. If that's what life is, great, I'm
Speaker 3: into it. I don't feel like there are any deficiencies,
Speaker 3: but I do know. I do know that, like it's
Speaker 3: a magical feeling that I have to be careful. I
Speaker 3: don't dilute by doing too often. So I do get
Speaker 3: a lot of music, and I do get asked a lot,
Speaker 3: but I'm only going to do it a few times
Speaker 3: here and there when I know it's just spot on
Speaker 3: the right thing to do musically, like it was with Tish.
Speaker 2: Tell me about performing at the at Brandy's Girls Just
Speaker 2: Want To Festival. The venue was a little bit unconventional
Speaker 2: the stage. Tell me from your perspective what that experience
Speaker 2: was like.
Speaker 3: Just be honest. It's a pool full of gaye, That's
Speaker 3: what it was.
Speaker 4: I mean, I just think I always feel so safe
Speaker 4: in those like I think I'm so spoiled with like
Speaker 4: for like some of my first big shows, I get
Speaker 4: to play in front of Brandy's crowd because they're so
Speaker 4: nice and they're so supportive. And maybe I'll have to
Speaker 4: go to the real world it sometime soon and maybe
Speaker 4: people won't be as nice, But for now, I'm really
Speaker 4: grateful to be able to play in front of support
Speaker 4: of crowds like that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, how is that for you? Brandy? Being on stage
Speaker 2: with Tish, I love.
Speaker 3: It so much. I just like watching her stand there
Speaker 3: and just like have all this agency, just like owns
Speaker 3: her space. I don't care who she's in front of.
Speaker 3: She's gonna garner the same reaction, which is awe, Like
Speaker 3: everybody's in awe of like how this certainty is coming
Speaker 3: out of this of this person, and that certainty is
Speaker 3: comforting and beautiful and it's wisdom, It's sage wisdom. People
Speaker 3: need it. And at the same time you are so
Speaker 3: self aware, Tish. I mean, I get as much from
Speaker 3: your interviews in these conversations with you as I do
Speaker 3: your music. I just think your really important voice.
Speaker 2: Thanks well, thank you both so much for doing this,
Speaker 2: and best of luck with the EP, and I can't
Speaker 2: wait to hear more songs in the future.
Speaker 3: What a great chat. Thank you. That was a blast,
Speaker 3: and I can't wait to chat about my next project
Speaker 3: with you.
Speaker 5: Thank you.
Speaker 3: I love this podcast.
Speaker 1: Oh thanks Ish Melton and Brandy Carlisle for talking about
Speaker 1: their creative partnership. Tish's EP, When We're Older is out
Speaker 1: now and you can hear all of our favorite songs
Speaker 1: from Tits and Brandy, along with some of the songs
Speaker 1: mentioned in this conversation on a playlist at broken record
Speaker 1: podcast dot com. Subscribe to our YouTube channel at YouTube
Speaker 1: dot com slash broken record Podcast, where you can find
Speaker 1: all of our new episodes. You can follow us on
Speaker 1: Twitter at broken Record. Broken Record is produced and edited
Speaker 1: by Leah Rose, with marketing help from Eric Sandler and
Speaker 1: Jordan McMillan. Our engineer is Ben Tolliney. Broken Record is
Speaker 1: a production of Pushkin Industries. If you love this show
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Speaker 1: us on your podcast app. Our theme music's by Kenny Beats.
Speaker 1: I'm justin Richmond.