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Speaker 1: Welcome to zero. I am Akshatrati. This week Drill, Baby, Drill.

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Speaker 2: The drilling industry has come up with some of the

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Speaker 2: most creative job titles. Yeah, you could imagine tool pusher,

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Speaker 2: no driller, motorman, mudlogger, these are all. These are all

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Speaker 2: job titles. When you're out on a drilling site.

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Speaker 1: And without one of them, you can't get the work done.

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Speaker 2: You need everybody.

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Speaker 1: I recently got up with Tim Latimer, CEO of Fervo,

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Speaker 1: a geothermal startup, and we got talking about the folksy

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Speaker 1: flare of oil and gas industry job titles, because he

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Speaker 1: is hiring and the geothermal plants he is building requires

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Speaker 1: the expertise of the mud lagger and the motorman, among others.

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Speaker 1: Geothermal power works by sending water to hot rocks underground,

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Speaker 1: using that heat to run a turbine, which creates electricity.

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Speaker 1: This kind of geothermal power has been around for more

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Speaker 1: than a century. What Tim is doing is a little

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Speaker 1: bit different. Fervo was founded in twenty seventeen and it

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Speaker 1: uses fracking technology from the oil and gas industry to

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Speaker 1: supercharge geothermal power plants.

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Speaker 2: You know, drilling in a lot of ways is drilling

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Speaker 2: if you're a phenomenal driller for oil and gas, you're

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Speaker 2: going to do very well in geothermal, and so it

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Speaker 2: does create this great opportunity for us to tap into

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Speaker 2: that skill set.

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Speaker 1: Fervo opened its first power plant in Nevada late in

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty three, and the company is quickly growing. It

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Speaker 1: raised two hundred and twenty million dollars in February and

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Speaker 1: is now in the process of opening another plant in Utah.

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Speaker 1: The way to get to zero emissions is to electrify

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Speaker 1: as much of our world as possible and produce that

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Speaker 1: electricity without emissions. Now, solar and wind power are solving

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Speaker 1: that problem, but only partially because they aren't available all

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Speaker 1: the time. Geothermal power is near zero emissions and is

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Speaker 1: available all the time. Geothermal has been around for longer

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Speaker 1: than modern solar or wind power, but until Furvok came along,

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Speaker 1: I hadn't seen its true potential. Iceland was a developing

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Speaker 1: country before it found a way to tap geothermal power,

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Speaker 1: and that kind of story could play out in Kenya, Indonesia,

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Speaker 1: and so many other developing countries. Geothermal power can also

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Speaker 1: solve the problem of intermittent solar and wind in developed countries.

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Speaker 1: I caught up with Tim at the Breakthrough Energy Summit

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Speaker 1: in London earlier this summer. We talked about the history

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Speaker 1: of geothermal, the challenges of making it work to day,

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Speaker 1: and his plans to build plants outside the US. Tim,

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Speaker 1: welcome to the show.

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Speaker 2: Great to be here.

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Speaker 1: Now, there's a long history of people using geothermal energy,

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Speaker 1: from indigenous people making use of hot springs to spa

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Speaker 1: towns like Bath. Here in England, people love using naturally

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Speaker 1: heated water for rest and restoration. But the first experiments

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Speaker 1: in capturing that geothermal heat to make it into electricity

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Speaker 1: happened in early nineteen hundreds. The first project, which happened

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Speaker 1: in Italy was just enough power to light four light bulbs.

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Speaker 1: So let's talk about geothermal plants and how do they work.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah, that Italian project was pioneering just because it

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Speaker 2: showed that you could use the natural heat of the

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Speaker 2: earth to create electricity. And I'll point out even though

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Speaker 2: it was only four light bulbs, light bulbs were not

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Speaker 2: as efficient back then, so still a great proof point,

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Speaker 2: but relatively small. And I think what it was interesting

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Speaker 2: about that project is that it accessed the site in

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Speaker 2: Italy that geologically was so productive from a geothermal standpoint,

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Speaker 2: that the steam was naturally coming out of the ground,

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Speaker 2: and so there actually wasn't even any drilling involved. And

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Speaker 2: you see that there are places in the world where

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Speaker 2: steam will naturally escape the surface. But as we move

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Speaker 2: forward with geothermal, you know, the number of locations where

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Speaker 2: steam is just pouring out of the ground is not

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Speaker 2: that numerous. And so you started seeing some pioneering approaches

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Speaker 2: in Iceland, New Zealand, the United States that looked at, okay,

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Speaker 2: steam isn't coming out of the ground, but we could

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Speaker 2: drill a little bit down into the ground, could we

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Speaker 2: access more productive steam deposits. So you saw a ramp

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Speaker 2: up you know, in the sixties and seventies of that

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Speaker 2: technology is combining that surface, you know, capturing steam to

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Speaker 2: generate electricity using a turbine technology withdrilling, and so the

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Speaker 2: oldest forms of geothermal electricity generation we're just going to

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Speaker 2: these really naturally productive areas, drilling relatively shallow wells and

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Speaker 2: then using the steam to directly power a turbine.

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Speaker 1: And so it went from sort of kilo wartz which

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Speaker 1: would power today a home or two homes, to megawarts,

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Speaker 1: but only tens of megawarts initially.

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Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, but it started to expand. The largest geothermal

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Speaker 2: facility in the world is the Geysers in Northern California,

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Speaker 2: and it really started getting built out in the seventies

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Speaker 2: and eighties and at one point reached over two gigawatts

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Speaker 2: of power. So relatively early on, in these specific locations

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Speaker 2: with really suitable geology, geothermal scale to be a pretty

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Speaker 2: meaningful part of the electricity mix, but it was always

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Speaker 2: only narrowly applicable into these locations with perfect geology.

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Speaker 1: And then the drilling technology itself. Initially you could drill

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Speaker 1: and tap into reservoirs that had steam, but after that

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Speaker 1: you had to start drilling two wells and pour water in,

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Speaker 1: heat it up, and bring it back up.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, interestingly enough, you really always should have been

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Speaker 2: doing that. It's just the first sites that people develop

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Speaker 2: in these great locations, there just seemed to be an

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Speaker 2: endless amount of steam that would come out of the ground. Actually,

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Speaker 2: to talk more specifically about that project in the Geysers

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Speaker 2: in Northern California, it actually peaked in the eighties at

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Speaker 2: two point two gigawatts, and for twenty years of development,

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Speaker 2: you know, you drill more wells, you get more power,

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Speaker 2: and everything seemed to be working just fine. But actually

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Speaker 2: one of the things that was happening is there were

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Speaker 2: multiple developers all tapping into the same steam resource and

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Speaker 2: producing but not actually providing the right reinjection of fluid.

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Speaker 2: And so after about twenty years of production, the field

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Speaker 2: started to decline, and declined quite rapidly, so by the

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Speaker 2: mid nineties it had declined to only about one gigawatt

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Speaker 2: of production. But in that time people figured out that

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Speaker 2: you really did need to not just produce hot steam

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Speaker 2: out of production wells, but reinject cold water back down

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Speaker 2: using injection wells to make sure you could maintain the

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Speaker 2: reservoir over time. So they started a reinjection project at

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Speaker 2: the geysers in the nineties and it's actually been very

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Speaker 2: stable since then, you know, producing roughly one gigwatt of electricity.

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Speaker 2: But from then on, I think the importance of making

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Speaker 2: sure that you weren't just producing steam but actually reinjecting

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Speaker 2: cold water back into the reservoir to maintain it, you know,

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Speaker 2: became standard practice in the industry, and.

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Speaker 1: What you've been able to do with FERVO, where you

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Speaker 1: apply oil and gas technology horizontal drilling to be able

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Speaker 1: to access more heat from these areas expands the capacity

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Speaker 1: of energy and thus power that you could produce from

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Speaker 1: the same sites. So when you apply that lens that

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Speaker 1: this technology is now viable, you've actually built plants that

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Speaker 1: produce power. Does that fundamentally change the potential for geothermal

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Speaker 1: in the world? Yes? By how much?

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Speaker 2: By orders of magnitude. So you know, even though geothermal

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Speaker 2: has been around for a long time, you look at

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Speaker 2: a market like the United States today and it's still

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Speaker 2: zero point four percent of the electricity mix. And the

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Speaker 2: reason for that is that the geysers is wildly productive.

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Speaker 2: Other sites in California are wildly productive. There's been new

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Speaker 2: technology that's opened up projects in Oregon and Nevada and elsewhere,

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Speaker 2: but it's still been limited historically to these areas that

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Speaker 2: have very specific geologic criteria. It has to be really hot,

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Speaker 2: it has to be hot close to the surface, you

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Speaker 2: don't have to drill that deep, and there has to

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Speaker 2: be natural permeability in the reservoir so that you could

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Speaker 2: get high flow rates out of the wells.

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Speaker 1: And natural permeability just means that when you inject water

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Speaker 1: that it naturally flows through the geology because it's not

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Speaker 1: like there's a tank there. It's sort of rocks that

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Speaker 1: are porous and you need the water to naturally flow through.

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Speaker 2: Them, exactly right. And that's a very locally specific criteria

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Speaker 2: for the rock. That really depends on what rock type

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Speaker 2: it is and what geologic setting it's in. And so

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Speaker 2: what people found is that sometimes you would drill geothermal

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Speaker 2: well and it would produce a lot of steam, and

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Speaker 2: sometimes you would drill geothermal well and it would produce

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Speaker 2: snow steam. And that was by and large because there

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Speaker 2: were areas that even though we knew the rocks were

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Speaker 2: hot and hot enough to provide temperatures that were viable

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Speaker 2: for commercial development of geothermal, you couldn't get the flow

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Speaker 2: rates needed. So, going back even to the nineteen seventies,

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Speaker 2: the Department of Energy in the US started working on

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Speaker 2: techniques to look at Okay, you know, let's say not

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Speaker 2: every site's the geysers, because the geysers is pretty unique.

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Speaker 2: But let's say you have to drill deeper and you

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Speaker 2: have to create your own flow pathways as opposed to

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Speaker 2: relying on natural ones. You know, if that works, you

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Speaker 2: start talking about a geothermal resource that isn't you know,

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Speaker 2: zero point four percent, but could be a factor of

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Speaker 2: one hundred times. You know, more than that. The potential

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Speaker 2: is I mean, for all intents and purposes limitless. But

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Speaker 2: going to deeper levels and then using the well stimulation

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Speaker 2: techniques to create your permeability even when there's not natural

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Speaker 2: permeability is something that adds significant cost. And so even

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Speaker 2: though everyone always knew the resource potential was massive, and

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Speaker 2: there's been experiments on what we call enhanced geothermal systems

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Speaker 2: going back to the nineteen seventies and there have been

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Speaker 2: many experiments all over the world since then, it never

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Speaker 2: meant the right cost criteria, and so geothermal was not

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Speaker 2: able to expand beyond just those niche resources that had

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Speaker 2: the perfect geology, you know, up until very recently.

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Speaker 1: So going back to Fervo, the thing that you were

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Speaker 1: able to do uniquely is open up existing places that

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Speaker 1: did not have the floor rid the permeability, and make

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Speaker 1: them work through these techniques developed in the oil and

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Speaker 1: gas industry around hydraulic fracturing and produce power in a

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Speaker 1: new way. Let's start with your first plant that was

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Speaker 1: built in Nevada. It started producing power late in twenty

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Speaker 1: twenty three. What was the challenge that you had to

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Speaker 1: face and what did you learn from doing it?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so we wanted to be able to prove that

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Speaker 2: the new thing we were bringing to enhance geothermal systems,

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Speaker 2: which is actually the incorporation of horizontal drilling, would lead

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Speaker 2: to the transformative outcomes we were expecting when it came

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Speaker 2: to the metrics that make these products viable, mostly flow

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Speaker 2: rate and cost. And so we started looking for a

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Speaker 2: site that had very specific criteria. What we wanted to

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Speaker 2: find was an existing geothermal power plant because when we

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Speaker 2: drilled the wells, we wanted to be able to start

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Speaker 2: producing brine for electricity immediately, and we wanted to find

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Speaker 2: a place that was underperforming so it could support our brine.

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Speaker 2: And we also wanted to find a place that was

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Speaker 2: underperforming specifically because in its initial development it only used

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Speaker 2: conventional drilling technology and had dry holes. And so we

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Speaker 2: found a project in northern Nevada that met all those criteria.

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Speaker 2: It was developed about fifteen years ago and never quite

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Speaker 2: made it to its full potential because they actually had

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Speaker 2: drilled twenty plus wells at this site but found that

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Speaker 2: roughly half the wells were dry holes and so we

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Speaker 2: cited an area of the field where, going back fifteen

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Speaker 2: years ago, there'd been four conventional vertical geothermal wells drilled,

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Speaker 2: all unsuccessful, and we decided to put our pilot project

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Speaker 2: right in that spot because we thought, what better way

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Speaker 2: of showing it like for like comparison of what our

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Speaker 2: technology can do than providing a productive project in a

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Speaker 2: place that's exactly where a previously unsuccessful project ben And

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Speaker 2: so we located to an area that was to the

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Speaker 2: south of an existing geothermal field but was proven to

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Speaker 2: be subcommercial using conventional drilling technology, and we started a

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Speaker 2: program that involved drilling three wells. First the vertical monitoring

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Speaker 2: well that we could instrument with fiber optics and other

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Speaker 2: sensors so that we could really learn a lot more

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Speaker 2: about this project since it was a pilot project. And

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Speaker 2: then we drilled the first pair of horizontal wells ever

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Speaker 2: drilled in the geothermal industry, and so drilling horizontally for us,

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Speaker 2: what we did at that site is we drilled vertically

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Speaker 2: down to a depth of roughly seven to eight thousand feet,

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Speaker 2: and we get to that depth because that's where the

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Speaker 2: temperature gets above three hundred and fifty degrees fahrenheit, which

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Speaker 2: is which is perspective for geothermal production. And then we

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Speaker 2: turned the bit sideways and drill horizontally for three thousand feet.

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Speaker 2: And we did this with two different wells that we

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Speaker 2: cited a few hundred feet apart from each other. And

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Speaker 2: so what that means is rather than just a couple

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Speaker 2: of vertical wells and the flow going directly between two

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Speaker 2: points and these small vertical wells, we were actually able

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Speaker 2: to create over one hundred different flow zones between these

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Speaker 2: two horizontal wells that are eight thousand feet down and

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Speaker 2: run parallel to each other for three thousand feet. And

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Speaker 2: so what that creates as a situation where we can

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Speaker 2: pump down the injection well and actually distribute the flow

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Speaker 2: evenly across a three thousand foot area, and so it's

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Speaker 2: far more efficient for heat transfer and picking up the

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Speaker 2: heat and also importantly accesses as much bigger resource, so

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Speaker 2: the project can last a lot longer. And then that

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Speaker 2: water sweeps across the reservoir, collects the heat and comes

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Speaker 2: back up our production well that we then send to

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Speaker 2: the plant to generate electricity.

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Speaker 1: And now you have a new announcement that with Southern California,

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Speaker 1: Edison you're going to be building another geothermal plant. This

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Speaker 1: one's going to be a lot bigger. And this came

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Speaker 1: about in part because of a new rule from California's regulators,

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Speaker 1: which to my mind, is a good example of how

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Speaker 1: governments and private companies have to coordinate in this energy transition.

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Speaker 1: As I understand it, the state of California is requiring

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Speaker 1: energy utilities to procure one gigawad of clean energy by

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty six. What made geothermal provider like Furvo so

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Speaker 1: attractive compared to say, wind or solar.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a great it's a great question and also

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Speaker 2: a great point about the important role of policy and

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Speaker 2: deploying new technologies. You know, we formed the company in

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Speaker 2: twenty seventeen and knew that California, especially given their emphasis

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Speaker 2: on climate action, was going to be a great market

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Speaker 2: for us. But one thing we found is we started

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Speaker 2: engaging with the power buyers of the load serving entities

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Speaker 2: in California is actually very few of them had experience

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Speaker 2: and procurement of geothermal. It's a very different technology than

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Speaker 2: wind or solar or natural gas that they're a lot

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Speaker 2: more familiar with. And even the ones that did have

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Speaker 2: experience you know, often hadn't negotiated those contracts in a

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Speaker 2: long time, so it was actually very difficult to engage

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Speaker 2: in an off take discussion with them because you know,

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Speaker 2: you could talk about cost and risk and reliability and

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Speaker 2: these things that in the environmental attributes, these things that

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Speaker 2: the power buyers care a lot about. But you know,

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Speaker 2: if they're not staff after motivated to valuate geothermal projects,

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Speaker 2: then could be hard for a new technology to like geothermal,

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Speaker 2: to break through. And so one of the important things

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Speaker 2: that happened is well, really two things. One on the

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Speaker 2: climate ambition side is SB one hundred pass in California

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Speaker 2: about five years ago, and California had been very successful

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Speaker 2: and meeting their initial renewable Portfolio standard targets, but those,

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Speaker 2: like most of the renewable portfolio standard targets in the

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Speaker 2: United States, typically targeted lower levels of renewable energy penetration,

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Speaker 2: you know, ten percent, twenty percent, thirty percent. But it

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Speaker 2: wasn't until about five years ago that people started getting

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Speaker 2: very serious about full decarbonization, you know, one hundred percent

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Speaker 2: clean electricity mix. And SB one hundred in California really

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Speaker 2: created a great vision for strong intermediate targets for decarbonization

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Speaker 2: in the next decade and then ultimately a target of

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Speaker 2: complete decarbonization of the electricity sector by twenty forty five.

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Speaker 2: And so that was the first sort of wake up

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Speaker 2: call I think to the power buyers in the state

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Speaker 2: that okay, we really you need to build on the

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Speaker 2: success of wind and solar deployment and start thinking about

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Speaker 2: energy storage and clean firm power to really make sure

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Speaker 2: we can achieve those goals of one hundred percent decarbonisation.

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Speaker 1: So it's easy to understand that geothermal is not like

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Speaker 1: solar and wind because you can access geothermal all the time.

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Speaker 1: It's hard to understand why it's not like natural gas

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Speaker 1: because you're still using a steam turbine. You're still spinning

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Speaker 1: a turbine to produce power, and you can produce it

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Speaker 1: when you want it, just like a natural gas pop plant.

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Speaker 1: So why is it that utilities couldn't understand geothermal as

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Speaker 1: they understand gas.

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Speaker 2: It's it's similar from an output standpoint, but the technology

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Speaker 2: is very different. And you know, when utilities procure, especially

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Speaker 2: large contracts of power, you know they build really detailed

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Speaker 2: integrated resource plans around that. So it's very important if

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Speaker 2: they procure the power then it actually shows up. And traditionally,

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Speaker 2: if they were in a diligence, you know, a natural

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Speaker 2: gas project, they need to make sure that the technology

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Speaker 2: is valid, that they've got the right engineering plans, it

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Speaker 2: has access to natural gas and a feed supply agreement

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Speaker 2: so that the power can get the fuel, and you

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Speaker 2: could sort of check the boxes on that and understand that,

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Speaker 2: all right, this project is a reasonable likelihood of success

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Speaker 2: when they started looking at geothermal. Now, if you're a

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Speaker 2: utility and you want to base your planning on this

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Speaker 2: resource showing up, you need to understand a lot more

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Speaker 2: about that technology, like you need to really have confidence

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Speaker 2: that the developer proposing the project can actually drill the

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Speaker 2: wells and get the resource output needed to be successful.

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Speaker 2: And unfortunately, using conventional technology of geothermal, there's been many

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Speaker 2: examples over the last several decades of people with great

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Speaker 2: plans of projects and ambitions that ran into that dry

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Speaker 2: hole challenge and as a result, the projects didn't show

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Speaker 2: up on time or didn't produce as much as they

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Speaker 2: were intending to. And so when you're talking to a

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Speaker 2: utility customer that really needs to make sure a project

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Speaker 2: is going to show up when they contract it the

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Speaker 2: fact that you know, they didn't have comfort around the

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Speaker 2: track record of success in geothermal. Not a lot of

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Speaker 2: utilities have a geology department sitting around, you know, and

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Speaker 2: so they just didn't really feel comfortable with taking on

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Speaker 2: the development risk that is inherent to geothermal using conventional technology.

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Speaker 1: And so what did you have to do to convince

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Speaker 1: Southern California Edison to take on geotomal?

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Speaker 2: Then, yeah, well there's another part of the resource, you know,

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Speaker 2: policy mix in California. So SB one hundred was very

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Speaker 2: powerful and setting the climate ambition. But then the rolling

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Speaker 2: blackouts that occurred in the state in August of twenty twenty,

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Speaker 2: you know, were a real wake up call for making

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Speaker 2: sure that reliability was a focus of the grid. And

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Speaker 2: so the California Public uti Utility Commission issued a ruling

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Speaker 2: called the Midterm Reliability Ruling that spelled out specific procurement

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Speaker 2: mandates for capacity and for energy storage to make sure

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Speaker 2: that California could meet its reliability goals. But also there

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Speaker 2: was an early recognition there that when solar and batteries

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Speaker 2: were going to get a lot of the job done,

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Speaker 2: but we are going to need an additional resource that's

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Speaker 2: a clean firm power solution, and clean firm is the

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Speaker 2: definition of technologies that don't produce carbon emissions but also

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Speaker 2: have dispatchability and are on all the time, So like geothermal, nuclear,

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Speaker 2: natural gas with carbon capture and sequestration, those are sort

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Speaker 2: of the technologies that people generally bucket into the clean

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Speaker 2: firm power mix. And so the CPUC actually created a

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Speaker 2: specific carve out for one thousand megawatts of clean firm power,

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Speaker 2: and so for the first time in a long time,

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Speaker 2: created a strong market signal that this was something that

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Speaker 2: the grid needs. A well functioning grid needs to have

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Speaker 2: a portion of its energy come from clean firm power,

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Speaker 2: and it pushed that mandate out actually to all of

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Speaker 2: the power buyers in the state of California, so all

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Speaker 2: of a sudden, they had a reason to make sure

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Speaker 2: that they could get smart about projects and look at geothermal.

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Speaker 2: So we engaged with a lot of community choice aggregators

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Speaker 2: and the specific utilities in California. They all ran, oftentimes

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Speaker 2: their first proposals to procure geothermal power in decades. In

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Speaker 2: some cases there for the first time ever for a

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Speaker 2: lot of these organizations. And we had been building since

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Speaker 2: twenty seventeen a portfolio of projects that we could market

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Speaker 2: to these customers that could meet the online date obligations

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Speaker 2: of the Public Utility Commission's requirements. So we first engaged

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Speaker 2: with SE for this deal as part of a procurement

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Speaker 2: process to meet those needs, and we were able to

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Speaker 2: show not only had we done the groundwork on the

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Speaker 2: permitting and transmission and citing of projects, but that in

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Speaker 2: parallel to that, we'd accomplished all of the technical objectives

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Speaker 2: needed at Project read our product in Nevada, and so

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Speaker 2: we were viewed by them and by our other customers

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Speaker 2: as a technology that meets the needs of this clean

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Speaker 2: firm power mandate, helps support California meet not only its

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Speaker 2: climate goals but its reliability goals, and actually could prove

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Speaker 2: that we were at technology with a track record of

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Speaker 2: success and the ability to scale up quickly in time

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Speaker 2: to meet these mandates. And I think we're fairly unique

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Speaker 2: in our ability to do that. So we found a

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Speaker 2: lot of success in the off take market now because

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Speaker 2: there's market demand for what we're selling, and we've also

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Speaker 2: gone through the steps of de risking the technology to

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Speaker 2: show that we're ready to scale to meet the need

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Speaker 2: of the grid in the very near term.

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Speaker 1: So now you're working on a project in Utah, it's

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Speaker 1: going to be four hundred megawards and that could power

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Speaker 1: something like three hundred thousand homes. It's going to be

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Speaker 1: an expensive project because it's a first of a kind

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Speaker 1: at that scale. For you, just talk us through the financing.

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Speaker 1: How are you going to make it work? Yeah?

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Speaker 2: Great, great question, because I think the first of a

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Speaker 2: kind project deployment and financing is I think the important

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Speaker 2: topic when it comes to climate tech deployment today because

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Speaker 2: it's an area that we as a financing ecosystem haven't

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Speaker 2: really solved well before. When you think about traditional renewable

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Speaker 2: project finance with wind and solar, which you're very proven

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Speaker 2: technologies a lot of times, once you kind of check

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Speaker 2: the boxes of development in terms of sighting and engineering

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Speaker 2: and customer off take, you can already bring in very

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Speaker 2: high percentages of debt for the project. So that's one

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Speaker 2: of the things that make these technologies very affordable is

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Speaker 2: the financing costs are very low.

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Speaker 1: Right, and debt comes in cheap because debt is a

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Speaker 1: loan from typically a bank or maybe some investors, and

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Speaker 1: they'll charge you an interest rate, but it's typically lower

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Speaker 1: interest rate than you would pay if you raise that

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Speaker 1: money through equity, where they're looking for ten, twelve fifteen

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Speaker 1: percent return.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, And so when you think about a FERVO and

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Speaker 2: deploying rgothermal technology or really anything that's in the climate

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Speaker 2: tech deployment phase, people understand that the first project, or

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Speaker 2: the second project, or even the tenth project, you have

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Speaker 2: less of a track record, and so investors want to

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Speaker 2: see the potential for a higher return to compensate them

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Speaker 2: for the risk they're taking on because they may have

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Speaker 2: a couple projects in that portfolio. With their first of

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Speaker 2: a client projects they just don't return anything. And so

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Speaker 2: early projects are going to have a high cost of capital.

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Speaker 2: And then the goal is to build a track record

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Speaker 2: of success so you can progressively lower that cost of capital.

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Speaker 1: And so to do this, you're splitting this project into

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Speaker 1: one hundred megabork plant and then upgrade to a four

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Speaker 1: hundred mega work on. That's right, So how much is

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Speaker 1: the first hundred mega what going to cost? And when

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Speaker 1: does it come online?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so phase one of this project, we call it

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Speaker 2: Project Cape in Utah, will be roughly one hundred megawatts.

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Speaker 2: At this point in time, we've already drilled several of

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Speaker 2: the wells. We've done all of the work to develop

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Speaker 2: and bring it online on our schedule, which is set

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Speaker 2: for twenty twenty six, and we'll spend over five hundred

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Speaker 2: million dollars to bring that first phase of that project

437
00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:23,919
Speaker 2: online by twenty twenty.

438
00:23:23,640 --> 00:23:25,840
Speaker 1: Six, and some of it will come from debt.

439
00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:29,840
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, So the goal for us or any technology

440
00:23:29,880 --> 00:23:33,320
Speaker 2: is to get to where these projects are so trusted

441
00:23:34,040 --> 00:23:36,239
Speaker 2: because of your track record that you can finance them

442
00:23:36,240 --> 00:23:38,200
Speaker 2: with a high degree of debt. We've checked a lot

443
00:23:38,240 --> 00:23:41,320
Speaker 2: of the boxes for traditional project development. We're very far

444
00:23:41,359 --> 00:23:44,240
Speaker 2: along in the engineering. We've already drilled half the well field,

445
00:23:44,320 --> 00:23:46,480
Speaker 2: we've got off take, we've got transmission, we've got the

446
00:23:46,480 --> 00:23:49,480
Speaker 2: permits we need. But since it's viewed as a newer technology,

447
00:23:49,560 --> 00:23:51,840
Speaker 2: we have to get a much lower percentage of debt

448
00:23:51,960 --> 00:23:54,600
Speaker 2: compared to if it was a more proven technology. So

449
00:23:55,200 --> 00:23:57,880
Speaker 2: in the industry we call this, you know, overequitizing a project.

450
00:23:57,920 --> 00:23:59,920
Speaker 2: You know, when you're a mature technology with a binding

451
00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:01,920
Speaker 2: off take agreement, you would hope to get fifty percent

452
00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:03,800
Speaker 2: or more of the project from debt. You know, on

453
00:24:03,840 --> 00:24:05,639
Speaker 2: our first project, we're looking at more like twenty to

454
00:24:05,640 --> 00:24:08,439
Speaker 2: thirty percent from debt, and that's great. It helps us

455
00:24:08,440 --> 00:24:10,600
Speaker 2: finance the project. But as we build more of a

456
00:24:10,600 --> 00:24:12,720
Speaker 2: track record, you know we'll be able to finance a

457
00:24:12,800 --> 00:24:15,000
Speaker 2: higher percentage of the project with debt and then translate

458
00:24:15,040 --> 00:24:17,800
Speaker 2: that into lower cost electricity for our customers.

459
00:24:18,119 --> 00:24:20,200
Speaker 1: But it's also true that it's taken you a long

460
00:24:20,240 --> 00:24:23,040
Speaker 1: time to get the permits, and these days, at least

461
00:24:23,080 --> 00:24:27,399
Speaker 1: in the US, but also in Europe, building anything is

462
00:24:28,080 --> 00:24:32,040
Speaker 1: taking a long time. Getting planning and permits done is

463
00:24:32,080 --> 00:24:36,840
Speaker 1: taking a long time. Are there specific hurdles for geothermal projects.

464
00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:41,879
Speaker 2: Yes. So it's a bit of a quirk of history

465
00:24:41,960 --> 00:24:45,040
Speaker 2: or geology or whatever you would call it that the

466
00:24:45,080 --> 00:24:49,040
Speaker 2: best locations in the United States for geothermal energy development

467
00:24:49,560 --> 00:24:52,159
Speaker 2: also happen to be on land that's owned by the

468
00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:55,879
Speaker 2: US federal government, and the federal land carries with it

469
00:24:56,160 --> 00:24:59,480
Speaker 2: very different permitting requirements than private or state land. The

470
00:24:59,560 --> 00:25:02,280
Speaker 2: majority of our projects are cited on federal land because

471
00:25:02,280 --> 00:25:04,600
Speaker 2: that's where the geology is the best. The vast majority

472
00:25:04,640 --> 00:25:06,639
Speaker 2: of the Western United States is owned by the federal government,

473
00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:08,359
Speaker 2: and the vast majority of the Western United States is

474
00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:11,639
Speaker 2: where the best geothermal projects are, and so for US

475
00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:15,080
Speaker 2: to be able to break ground on our project Kate

476
00:25:15,359 --> 00:25:17,159
Speaker 2: and drill the first well, which we did in the

477
00:25:17,160 --> 00:25:20,920
Speaker 2: summer of twenty twenty three. We actually started the leasing

478
00:25:20,960 --> 00:25:23,600
Speaker 2: and permitting process for that project back in twenty nineteen,

479
00:25:23,880 --> 00:25:25,960
Speaker 2: so it took us about forty years to get the

480
00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:29,199
Speaker 2: project in position to be able to drill the first well,

481
00:25:29,320 --> 00:25:31,280
Speaker 2: and a lot of that is an artifact of the

482
00:25:31,280 --> 00:25:33,080
Speaker 2: fact that it's on federal land. If it was just

483
00:25:33,119 --> 00:25:35,800
Speaker 2: on private land, you could probably shorten that to six

484
00:25:35,960 --> 00:25:39,720
Speaker 2: or twelve months. And it's particularly challenging for geothermal because

485
00:25:39,760 --> 00:25:43,520
Speaker 2: not only are we developing projects mostly on federal land

486
00:25:43,560 --> 00:25:47,439
Speaker 2: where we're subject to these requirements, but also there's actually

487
00:25:47,520 --> 00:25:51,119
Speaker 2: a lot of categorical exclusions that make permitting easier for

488
00:25:51,240 --> 00:25:54,120
Speaker 2: drilling in the United States that only apply to oil

489
00:25:54,160 --> 00:25:57,119
Speaker 2: and gas drilling. And so we have many examples where

490
00:25:57,119 --> 00:25:59,639
Speaker 2: going through our project development, if we were to call

491
00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:01,560
Speaker 2: it on gas project, or if we were drilling for

492
00:26:01,600 --> 00:26:04,399
Speaker 2: oil and gas, we can actually streamline the permitting to

493
00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:08,399
Speaker 2: go a lot faster. But those categorical exclusions don't extend

494
00:26:08,440 --> 00:26:09,640
Speaker 2: to geothermal development.

495
00:26:09,880 --> 00:26:11,560
Speaker 1: You don't have the lobbing permit.

496
00:26:11,960 --> 00:26:14,320
Speaker 2: It's not the lobbying power, and it's also something that

497
00:26:14,480 --> 00:26:17,200
Speaker 2: you know, geothermal always struggles to be top of mind

498
00:26:17,240 --> 00:26:20,760
Speaker 2: for people. I think there's been a longstanding conventional wisdom

499
00:26:20,920 --> 00:26:24,119
Speaker 2: that it's a great resource, but it can't scale, and

500
00:26:24,160 --> 00:26:27,000
Speaker 2: so people haven't really focused on it for policy efforts.

501
00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:29,400
Speaker 2: So you know, that shows up in the fact that

502
00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:31,399
Speaker 2: for much of the last decade we didn't have the

503
00:26:31,440 --> 00:26:34,800
Speaker 2: same tax credit that solar and wind dead and that

504
00:26:34,840 --> 00:26:37,240
Speaker 2: makes it challenging to develop. It also shows up in

505
00:26:37,240 --> 00:26:40,200
Speaker 2: the permitting side, where you know, I've talked to people

506
00:26:40,240 --> 00:26:43,479
Speaker 2: who were in the room when the provisions of the

507
00:26:43,720 --> 00:26:46,199
Speaker 2: Energy Act of two thousand and five that put in

508
00:26:46,240 --> 00:26:49,919
Speaker 2: these categorical exclusions for oil and gas drilling were developed,

509
00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:52,800
Speaker 2: and I asked, why did you exclude geothermal? And the

510
00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:57,000
Speaker 2: obvious answer is nobody had anything against geothermal. It's very

511
00:26:57,000 --> 00:26:59,480
Speaker 2: obvious the environmental impacts of drilling for geothermal are actually

512
00:26:59,520 --> 00:27:02,159
Speaker 2: less the environmental impacts of drilling for oil and gas.

513
00:27:02,400 --> 00:27:04,359
Speaker 2: It just didn't come up, you know, And so if

514
00:27:04,359 --> 00:27:07,080
Speaker 2: the law was specific to oil and gas drilling and

515
00:27:07,160 --> 00:27:09,879
Speaker 2: nobody thought to include geothermal, that's the situation we landed

516
00:27:09,920 --> 00:27:11,960
Speaker 2: ourselves at. And that's something that we find over and

517
00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:15,600
Speaker 2: over again, not just the US market, but internationally. Is

518
00:27:16,119 --> 00:27:19,000
Speaker 2: you're set up with policy structures that didn't really contemplate

519
00:27:19,119 --> 00:27:21,679
Speaker 2: rapid growth of geothermal and that's one of the barriers

520
00:27:21,720 --> 00:27:22,240
Speaker 2: to deployment.

521
00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:26,840
Speaker 1: You are using hydraulic fracturing, which was a technology that

522
00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:30,399
Speaker 1: was pursued and supported heavily by the US government for

523
00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:36,160
Speaker 1: specifically oil and gas industry. Now, we've been using fracking

524
00:27:36,960 --> 00:27:41,159
Speaker 1: for a long time and it's been pretty productive for gas,

525
00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:45,600
Speaker 1: even for oil, but there have been issues around fracking

526
00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:48,720
Speaker 1: that are very specific to how it's done. Right, you

527
00:27:49,160 --> 00:27:51,119
Speaker 1: use a lot of fluids to try and break these

528
00:27:51,240 --> 00:27:55,520
Speaker 1: geological structures in a very specific way. You cause earthquakes.

529
00:27:55,880 --> 00:27:58,960
Speaker 1: Do any of those problems also translate to what you're

530
00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:02,199
Speaker 1: doing when you try and get geotoobar from fracking.

531
00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:06,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, as with any development project, there are risks that

532
00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:10,320
Speaker 2: we have to address and handle through the development process.

533
00:28:10,560 --> 00:28:12,600
Speaker 2: You know, one of the concerns you raised is what

534
00:28:12,720 --> 00:28:14,679
Speaker 2: we in the industry call in dow seismicity. You know,

535
00:28:14,760 --> 00:28:17,399
Speaker 2: is there subsurface activity that you can do that can

536
00:28:17,440 --> 00:28:20,040
Speaker 2: cause earthquakes? And what we do is quite a bit

537
00:28:20,040 --> 00:28:23,200
Speaker 2: different from the oil and gas industry. You know, actually,

538
00:28:23,240 --> 00:28:26,760
Speaker 2: when you review. The majority of the earthquake activity that's

539
00:28:26,760 --> 00:28:30,040
Speaker 2: associated with shale oil and gas development in the United States,

540
00:28:30,119 --> 00:28:33,800
Speaker 2: that most common events come from saltwater disposal wells. It's

541
00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:38,480
Speaker 2: actually all the produced water that's generated from the operations

542
00:28:38,520 --> 00:28:41,280
Speaker 2: that then has to get reinjected as a disposal into

543
00:28:41,320 --> 00:28:44,560
Speaker 2: these wells that can cause pressure changes that can trigger

544
00:28:44,600 --> 00:28:47,760
Speaker 2: these earthquake activities. And so we actually don't you have

545
00:28:47,840 --> 00:28:50,160
Speaker 2: that as part of our process. You know, after we

546
00:28:50,520 --> 00:28:53,280
Speaker 2: finished drilling and completing the wells, all we're actually doing

547
00:28:53,360 --> 00:28:55,960
Speaker 2: then for an extended period of time is recirculating the

548
00:28:56,000 --> 00:28:59,960
Speaker 2: fluid through the reservoir. And so that actually doesn't cause

549
00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:02,880
Speaker 2: these pressure changes that disposal wells do, and so it

550
00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:05,520
Speaker 2: doesn't present the same high level of risk for seismic

551
00:29:05,560 --> 00:29:08,480
Speaker 2: activity that the oil and gas industry has. So I

552
00:29:08,520 --> 00:29:10,680
Speaker 2: would say, even though it doesn't carry a lot of

553
00:29:10,720 --> 00:29:13,320
Speaker 2: the same inherent risks, it's still something we focus on

554
00:29:13,440 --> 00:29:15,680
Speaker 2: quite a bit. So in the United States, the Department

555
00:29:15,720 --> 00:29:19,880
Speaker 2: of Energy has outlined a protocol called the indu Seismicity

556
00:29:19,880 --> 00:29:24,200
Speaker 2: Mitigation Protocol for Geothermal then actually walks through what are

557
00:29:24,200 --> 00:29:27,240
Speaker 2: the steps that you need to take for safe development

558
00:29:27,280 --> 00:29:31,400
Speaker 2: of geothermal power. So we follow all of those steps

559
00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:33,240
Speaker 2: in the protocol for every one of our projects. And

560
00:29:33,280 --> 00:29:36,040
Speaker 2: to give you some examples of what that means, we

561
00:29:36,120 --> 00:29:39,360
Speaker 2: actually partnered with the US Geological Survey. On our first project,

562
00:29:39,760 --> 00:29:43,360
Speaker 2: we analyzed that the seismic monitoring network in our area

563
00:29:43,600 --> 00:29:46,000
Speaker 2: wasn't really robust enough to get the really high fidelity

564
00:29:46,040 --> 00:29:49,240
Speaker 2: measurements we wanted to get to meet the indue Seismicity protocol.

565
00:29:49,360 --> 00:29:52,400
Speaker 2: So we actually partnered with the US Geological Survey to

566
00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:56,160
Speaker 2: augment and we installed seven local seismic monitoring stations around

567
00:29:56,160 --> 00:29:59,920
Speaker 2: our project so that we could monitor for levels of seismicity.

568
00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:02,800
Speaker 2: And what we know from years and years of development

569
00:30:02,840 --> 00:30:06,880
Speaker 2: and geothermal and oil gas and elsewhere is actually larger

570
00:30:06,960 --> 00:30:10,800
Speaker 2: seismic events that could co pause risks to people are

571
00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:14,840
Speaker 2: always preceded by smaller seismic events that can be picked

572
00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:17,920
Speaker 2: up with specialized instrumentation but can't be felt with the surface.

573
00:30:18,400 --> 00:30:21,680
Speaker 2: And so part of the protocol for indu seismicity and

574
00:30:21,760 --> 00:30:24,200
Speaker 2: geothermal is the adoption of what we call a traffic

575
00:30:24,240 --> 00:30:28,160
Speaker 2: light system, where we actually set very low thresholds for

576
00:30:28,520 --> 00:30:32,479
Speaker 2: these augmented seismic networks. The specialized sensor can detect low

577
00:30:32,600 --> 00:30:36,320
Speaker 2: levels of seismic activity, we can actually pause operations until

578
00:30:36,360 --> 00:30:39,120
Speaker 2: the seismic activity subsides, and as a result, you can

579
00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:42,920
Speaker 2: really mitigate against those risks of higher activity. So what

580
00:30:43,040 --> 00:30:46,040
Speaker 2: we do, you know, obviously borrows technology from oil and gas,

581
00:30:46,080 --> 00:30:49,080
Speaker 2: but it's both different technically. You know, the example I

582
00:30:49,080 --> 00:30:52,160
Speaker 2: gave here is we're not using those disposal wells, but

583
00:30:52,200 --> 00:30:53,760
Speaker 2: it's also something that we have a lot of tools

584
00:30:53,800 --> 00:30:55,959
Speaker 2: to mitigate against, and we have not had any issues

585
00:30:55,960 --> 00:30:56,680
Speaker 2: with seismicity.

586
00:30:58,120 --> 00:31:00,560
Speaker 1: Now, with all of that context in mind, and you

587
00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:06,520
Speaker 1: are dreaming big, you want the US generation from geotheromal

588
00:31:06,640 --> 00:31:09,479
Speaker 1: to go fermer point four percent to twenty percent. Now,

589
00:31:10,360 --> 00:31:12,360
Speaker 1: if you're not dreaming big as a startup, you're not

590
00:31:12,440 --> 00:31:15,560
Speaker 1: doing right. So it's nice to have a big dream.

591
00:31:15,880 --> 00:31:17,760
Speaker 1: But this is going to happen at a time where

592
00:31:18,120 --> 00:31:21,040
Speaker 1: electricity demand is likely going to double. So you're really

593
00:31:21,680 --> 00:31:25,479
Speaker 1: thinking of scaling geothermal one hundred times from where it is.

594
00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:29,080
Speaker 1: What will it take to make that jump happen?

595
00:31:29,680 --> 00:31:31,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, So I think we need to build on our

596
00:31:31,560 --> 00:31:33,880
Speaker 2: early pilot's success. I think the fact that we have

597
00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:37,600
Speaker 2: a project online in producing energy is something that you know,

598
00:31:37,640 --> 00:31:40,560
Speaker 2: honestly differentiates us a lot in the climate tech ecosystem.

599
00:31:40,600 --> 00:31:43,640
Speaker 2: A lot of companies have not got cross that important

600
00:31:43,640 --> 00:31:46,160
Speaker 2: milestone yet. But our next goal is to prove that

601
00:31:46,200 --> 00:31:47,720
Speaker 2: we can do it at one hundred times in the scale,

602
00:31:47,760 --> 00:31:50,880
Speaker 2: and that's this four hundred megawa project. And then as

603
00:31:50,880 --> 00:31:53,280
Speaker 2: we think going forward, you know, the nice thing about

604
00:31:53,320 --> 00:31:56,480
Speaker 2: our technology, as we've discussed, is it really does open

605
00:31:56,600 --> 00:32:00,840
Speaker 2: up so much more as sites to potential development. So

606
00:32:00,880 --> 00:32:03,720
Speaker 2: we actually have a pipeline just in the Western United

607
00:32:03,760 --> 00:32:07,720
Speaker 2: States where we have dozens of other projects we've cited

608
00:32:07,880 --> 00:32:11,000
Speaker 2: and identified locations for that are just as big, if

609
00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:13,840
Speaker 2: not bigger than our current four hundred megawap project. And

610
00:32:13,920 --> 00:32:15,800
Speaker 2: so what we need to do is bring this four

611
00:32:15,880 --> 00:32:19,480
Speaker 2: hundred megawa project online, show that this is a reliable, proven,

612
00:32:19,600 --> 00:32:23,040
Speaker 2: cost effective technology, and then scale the growth rate ten

613
00:32:23,120 --> 00:32:25,440
Speaker 2: or one hundred times so that we can achieve those goals.

614
00:32:25,480 --> 00:32:29,920
Speaker 2: So there's really no limit to the amount of geothermal potential,

615
00:32:30,360 --> 00:32:32,880
Speaker 2: and it just comes down to how much of it

616
00:32:32,920 --> 00:32:35,360
Speaker 2: can be accessed economically with today's technology.

617
00:32:35,480 --> 00:32:37,720
Speaker 1: Now, we've been talking about the US because the US

618
00:32:37,800 --> 00:32:40,240
Speaker 1: is the place with the most geothermal power in the world,

619
00:32:40,440 --> 00:32:42,880
Speaker 1: but there is a lot of geothermal power capacity in

620
00:32:42,960 --> 00:32:47,360
Speaker 1: developing countries like Indonesia, Philippines, Kenya. If anything, over the

621
00:32:47,400 --> 00:32:50,760
Speaker 1: past two decades, Kenya has been able to build geothermal

622
00:32:50,800 --> 00:32:53,880
Speaker 1: and now almost fifty percent of its power comes from geothermal.

623
00:32:54,520 --> 00:32:57,720
Speaker 1: Are you looking to expand for outside the US and where.

624
00:32:57,760 --> 00:33:01,120
Speaker 2: Yes, definitely. I think all of our current projects in

625
00:33:01,160 --> 00:33:04,280
Speaker 2: construction are in the US, and that's because we see

626
00:33:04,280 --> 00:33:06,360
Speaker 2: market demand for that. We understand that market. We're a

627
00:33:06,440 --> 00:33:08,960
Speaker 2: US based company, and so that's where we wanted to start.

628
00:33:09,040 --> 00:33:12,880
Speaker 2: But the technologies we're working on are globally applicable. The

629
00:33:12,960 --> 00:33:15,520
Speaker 2: US is the market leader in geothermal, but only about

630
00:33:15,520 --> 00:33:17,800
Speaker 2: twenty percent of the global capacity for geothermal is in

631
00:33:17,840 --> 00:33:19,200
Speaker 2: the US. A lot of it is in the markets

632
00:33:19,200 --> 00:33:23,239
Speaker 2: you mentioned Kenya, Indonesia, Turkey, the Philippines, and those are

633
00:33:23,240 --> 00:33:24,800
Speaker 2: all places we're looking at. You know, if you look

634
00:33:24,840 --> 00:33:27,040
Speaker 2: at how we've started in the US, we've gone to

635
00:33:27,080 --> 00:33:29,680
Speaker 2: locations that have a little bit of conventional geothermal and

636
00:33:29,760 --> 00:33:33,280
Speaker 2: used our technology to make it a lot of unconventional geothermal.

637
00:33:33,640 --> 00:33:36,240
Speaker 2: And so the markets we're looking at internationally actually are

638
00:33:36,360 --> 00:33:38,600
Speaker 2: very similar. What we're going to go to at first

639
00:33:38,600 --> 00:33:41,440
Speaker 2: as places with an established geothermal market, but then ten

640
00:33:41,600 --> 00:33:44,120
Speaker 2: x or one hundred x the potential of geothermal in

641
00:33:44,160 --> 00:33:47,560
Speaker 2: those markets given our technology. But ultimately, you know, every

642
00:33:47,560 --> 00:33:49,600
Speaker 2: country in the world has geology that's going to be

643
00:33:49,600 --> 00:33:53,360
Speaker 2: suitable for geothermal development using our technology approach, and so

644
00:33:53,480 --> 00:33:56,320
Speaker 2: we do think this can be a globally scalable solution.

645
00:34:01,600 --> 00:34:03,760
Speaker 1: After the break, Tim tells me about the oil and

646
00:34:03,800 --> 00:34:07,280
Speaker 1: gas workers eager to find new jobs in the geothermal industry.

647
00:34:08,040 --> 00:34:10,400
Speaker 1: And by the way, if you've been enjoying this episode,

648
00:34:10,480 --> 00:34:12,399
Speaker 1: please take a moment to rate and review the show

649
00:34:12,440 --> 00:34:15,799
Speaker 1: on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. It helps other listeners find

650
00:34:15,800 --> 00:34:25,839
Speaker 1: the show. One thing that's always struck me about conversations

651
00:34:25,840 --> 00:34:28,960
Speaker 1: we've had online offline over the years with Geothermal and

652
00:34:29,320 --> 00:34:32,120
Speaker 1: Fervo is that you've been able to take an oil

653
00:34:32,160 --> 00:34:35,000
Speaker 1: and gas technology and apply to clean energy. You've been

654
00:34:35,040 --> 00:34:37,960
Speaker 1: able to take workers in the oil and gas industry

655
00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:40,720
Speaker 1: and get them to work in the clean energy sector.

656
00:34:41,239 --> 00:34:43,440
Speaker 1: I recently spoke to Bill Gates, who is opening a

657
00:34:43,520 --> 00:34:47,600
Speaker 1: nuclear power plant in a former coal town in Wyoming

658
00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:50,960
Speaker 1: and hoping to use not just infrastructure, but a lot

659
00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:54,600
Speaker 1: of the skills that come in that town maintaining a

660
00:34:54,680 --> 00:34:58,600
Speaker 1: power plant. So talk me through how it's been for

661
00:34:58,680 --> 00:35:02,600
Speaker 1: you to try and bring in the human resources from

662
00:35:02,760 --> 00:35:06,200
Speaker 1: the oil and gas industry into clean energy.

663
00:35:06,320 --> 00:35:08,799
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's been a huge enabler for FERVO and also

664
00:35:09,040 --> 00:35:11,319
Speaker 2: core part of our mission from day one. You know,

665
00:35:11,520 --> 00:35:13,040
Speaker 2: you know from talking to me, I started my career

666
00:35:13,040 --> 00:35:14,320
Speaker 2: at oil and gas. You know, I grew up in

667
00:35:14,320 --> 00:35:17,160
Speaker 2: a small town in Texas and started working for as

668
00:35:17,160 --> 00:35:20,080
Speaker 2: a drilling engineer right out of college. And I always

669
00:35:20,080 --> 00:35:22,160
Speaker 2: found the work fascinating and I always enjoyed the people

670
00:35:22,200 --> 00:35:24,680
Speaker 2: I worked with, and honestly, if it wasn't for climate change,

671
00:35:24,719 --> 00:35:26,680
Speaker 2: probably would not have ever changed my career because it

672
00:35:26,680 --> 00:35:29,239
Speaker 2: was a fascinating career. But I got seriously interested in

673
00:35:29,239 --> 00:35:32,040
Speaker 2: climate change and it's just not that hard to think

674
00:35:32,080 --> 00:35:34,279
Speaker 2: through the logic of it. When you start realizing we

675
00:35:34,280 --> 00:35:36,440
Speaker 2: need to reinvent how we get energy in the world.

676
00:35:36,840 --> 00:35:39,600
Speaker 2: That does mean to transition away from fossil fuels and

677
00:35:39,640 --> 00:35:41,520
Speaker 2: what does that mean for all the people that work

678
00:35:41,520 --> 00:35:44,279
Speaker 2: in the industry, And you know, that was something that

679
00:35:44,400 --> 00:35:46,400
Speaker 2: was a big motivator for me and why I was

680
00:35:46,400 --> 00:35:49,640
Speaker 2: so excited about geothermal because it's a very seamless transition

681
00:35:49,719 --> 00:35:51,880
Speaker 2: to go from drilling oil and gas wells to drilling

682
00:35:51,920 --> 00:35:54,759
Speaker 2: geothermal wells, and in fact, the majority of the employees

683
00:35:54,760 --> 00:35:57,640
Speaker 2: at Fervo come from the oil and gas industry. And

684
00:35:57,680 --> 00:36:00,000
Speaker 2: the fact that we have such a large skilled work

685
00:36:00,120 --> 00:36:03,160
Speaker 2: forced to tap into and approven supply chain of the

686
00:36:03,239 --> 00:36:06,040
Speaker 2: kinds of equipment services we need has been one of

687
00:36:06,040 --> 00:36:07,880
Speaker 2: the things that's allowed for a voter to get to

688
00:36:07,960 --> 00:36:10,960
Speaker 2: market way faster than many of the other competing approaches,

689
00:36:11,280 --> 00:36:13,319
Speaker 2: you know, in the climate tech ecosystem. So it's been

690
00:36:13,320 --> 00:36:18,359
Speaker 2: a huge enabler. I mean, drilling is this amazingly orchestrated

691
00:36:18,880 --> 00:36:22,759
Speaker 2: engineering and scientific challenge, and it's taken one hundred and

692
00:36:22,760 --> 00:36:25,480
Speaker 2: fifty years of the oil and gas industry drilling to

693
00:36:25,480 --> 00:36:28,000
Speaker 2: get the technology and the place that it is today.

694
00:36:28,280 --> 00:36:30,840
Speaker 2: And there's no way we could be developing the sites

695
00:36:30,880 --> 00:36:33,200
Speaker 2: the way we're developing them. I mean, you just imagine

696
00:36:33,239 --> 00:36:37,120
Speaker 2: drilling a well. You need technical specialists and dozens of

697
00:36:37,160 --> 00:36:40,080
Speaker 2: sub disciplines. But the amount of knowledge and skills that

698
00:36:40,120 --> 00:36:42,239
Speaker 2: have been built up around this activity over the last

699
00:36:42,280 --> 00:36:45,160
Speaker 2: one hundred and fifty years is incredible. You know, I

700
00:36:45,200 --> 00:36:48,240
Speaker 2: was just out at our drilling location in Utah last

701
00:36:48,239 --> 00:36:50,560
Speaker 2: week and met somebody from you know, one of our

702
00:36:50,760 --> 00:36:54,600
Speaker 2: supply companies called mud Logging. The on site geologists that

703
00:36:54,640 --> 00:36:58,880
Speaker 2: analyzed the geology there, and the gentleman came up to

704
00:36:58,880 --> 00:37:01,200
Speaker 2: me and introduced himselves and told me how excited he was,

705
00:37:01,239 --> 00:37:04,279
Speaker 2: and he said that he'd specifically requested to be on

706
00:37:04,320 --> 00:37:07,160
Speaker 2: this project even though it made him have to move

707
00:37:07,440 --> 00:37:11,680
Speaker 2: halfway across the country for it, because he realized that

708
00:37:11,760 --> 00:37:14,200
Speaker 2: this was the future and this was something that he

709
00:37:14,239 --> 00:37:16,600
Speaker 2: could be in on the ground floor of something that

710
00:37:16,719 --> 00:37:18,719
Speaker 2: changes the world. And so it's somebody who's worked in

711
00:37:18,760 --> 00:37:22,239
Speaker 2: oil and gas their entire career and they're gravitating to this,

712
00:37:22,480 --> 00:37:24,680
Speaker 2: and the amount of excitement there is among the people

713
00:37:25,160 --> 00:37:26,960
Speaker 2: that look at this and see that it's something new,

714
00:37:27,000 --> 00:37:28,239
Speaker 2: see that it can be a huge part of the

715
00:37:28,280 --> 00:37:31,239
Speaker 2: energy mix of the future and solve climate change and

716
00:37:31,560 --> 00:37:33,960
Speaker 2: use the skills they already have to do. It is

717
00:37:33,960 --> 00:37:37,320
Speaker 2: something that just creates a lot of enthusiasm around our projects,

718
00:37:37,320 --> 00:37:40,360
Speaker 2: and it's always phenomenal for us to visit the hardworking

719
00:37:40,360 --> 00:37:43,360
Speaker 2: people out on our site and just see how excited

720
00:37:43,400 --> 00:37:45,959
Speaker 2: they are to be part of this project that's really

721
00:37:45,960 --> 00:37:46,759
Speaker 2: going to change things.

722
00:37:47,160 --> 00:37:55,640
Speaker 1: Thank you, Tim, thank you, thank you for listening to

723
00:37:55,719 --> 00:38:03,759
Speaker 1: zero and now for the sound of the week. That

724
00:38:03,880 --> 00:38:07,240
Speaker 1: is geothermal energy from the geysers of Yellowstone National Park.

725
00:38:07,880 --> 00:38:12,520
Speaker 1: You could say it's geothermal energy being wasted for tourism.

726
00:38:12,680 --> 00:38:14,560
Speaker 1: If you like this episode, please take a moment to

727
00:38:14,640 --> 00:38:17,040
Speaker 1: rate and review the show on Ample podcasts and Spotify.

728
00:38:18,200 --> 00:38:20,879
Speaker 1: Share this episode with a friend or with someone who

729
00:38:20,920 --> 00:38:23,600
Speaker 1: needs a spa weekend. You can get in touch at

730
00:38:23,680 --> 00:38:26,759
Speaker 1: zero pod at Bloomberg dot net. Zero's producer is Mighty

731
00:38:26,840 --> 00:38:29,840
Speaker 1: Lee Rau. Bloomberg's Head of podcast is Stage Bowman and

732
00:38:29,920 --> 00:38:33,160
Speaker 1: head of Talk is Brendan Newnan. Our theme music is

733
00:38:33,200 --> 00:38:36,480
Speaker 1: composed by Wonderly. Thanks to break Through Energy for a

734
00:38:36,560 --> 00:38:40,440
Speaker 1: recording space for this episode, special thanks to Kirra Bindrim

735
00:38:40,640 --> 00:38:43,879
Speaker 1: and Monique Mulima. I am actual Rati back