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Speaker 1: I did have friends in the truth or community that

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Speaker 1: were all musicians, and we had supported each other and

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Speaker 1: supported each other's art in this like fringe element of society,

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Speaker 1: and I built relationships with some of these people for

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Speaker 1: a good ten years, and to have some of them

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Speaker 1: really turn their back on me, it did hurt. They

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Speaker 1: don't want to talk to me because I loved them

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Speaker 1: like they were my brothers. But it's gone.

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Speaker 2: I'm John Cipher and I'm Jerry o'she.

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Speaker 3: I served in the CIA's Clandestine Service for twenty eight years,

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Speaker 3: living undercover all around the.

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Speaker 4: World, and in my thirty three years with the CIA,

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Speaker 4: I served in Africa, Asia, Europe, and the Middle East.

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Speaker 3: Although we don't usually look at it this way, we

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Speaker 3: created conspiracies.

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Speaker 4: In our operations. We got people to believe things that

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Speaker 4: weren't true.

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Speaker 3: Now we're investigating the conspiracy theories we see in the

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Speaker 3: news almost every day.

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Speaker 4: Will break them down for you to determine whether they

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Speaker 4: could be real or whether we're being manipulated.

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Speaker 3: Welcome to Mission implausible.

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Speaker 5: We talk about conspiracy theorists as if it's just a

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Speaker 5: fixed thing, but there's something that brings them in and

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Speaker 5: then every once in a while there's something that brings

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Speaker 5: them out.

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Speaker 4: How eventually you climb out and what's the psychological process

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Speaker 4: neurological process that goes along with that.

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Speaker 3: Falling down a rabbit hole is easy. Getting out as hard.

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Speaker 3: And so I give credit to people like our guest

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Speaker 3: today who battle with this issue. Yeah, so today's guest

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Speaker 3: is Brent Lee. Brent is a form of conspiracy theory addict,

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Speaker 3: I think you would say, who now works to help

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Speaker 3: others who've gotten lost in conspiracy rabbit holes. He writes

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Speaker 3: and speaks on the issues of conspiracy and hosts a

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Speaker 3: regular podcast called Some Dare Call It Conspiracy.

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Speaker 1: So welcome Brett, Thank you, thanks for having me so.

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Speaker 3: Brent, First, I would like to praise you for what

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Speaker 3: you're doing. It cannot have been easy to examine your

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Speaker 3: beliefs and change your life, and more importantly, your willingness

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Speaker 3: to share and help others is really laudable. So I

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Speaker 3: guess my first question is the simplest one. Can you

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Speaker 3: tell us a little bit about your journey and how

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Speaker 3: you ended up here.

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Speaker 1: Sure, in two thousand and three we were on the

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Speaker 1: verge of war with Iraq. The press and the government

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Speaker 1: in the UK was spinning like the workmans of mass

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Speaker 1: destruction eventually turned out to be a lie, and the

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Speaker 1: UN voted against going to Iraq, and all this kind

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Speaker 1: of stuff was going on, and I somehow came across

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Speaker 1: nine to eleven Truther documentaries, which basically we're pointing out

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Speaker 1: that nine to eleven was an inside job by the

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Speaker 1: government and it was all to go to war in

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Speaker 1: the Middle East and take over resources. And I'm telling you,

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Speaker 1: because of the lies that I was seeing in the

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Speaker 1: media spread by our government and your government at the time,

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Speaker 1: the Bush administration, I fell, hook line and sinker for

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Speaker 1: it because the arguments were so put together. And with

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Speaker 1: that I started going down a rabbit hole and to

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Speaker 1: trying to figure out, well, who are these people who

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Speaker 1: did this? Oh, George Bush is a member of Skull

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Speaker 1: and Bones. Oh so was Senator Kerry at the time. Okay,

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Speaker 1: that's interesting, Maybe I should look into these create society links.

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Speaker 1: And then I start coming across freemasonry and all that

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Speaker 1: sort of grand conspiracy myth and it just made sense,

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Speaker 1: It really just made sense. And from there I just

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Speaker 1: descended further and further into the rabbit hole.

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Speaker 4: Fascinating by the way, and I had a sort of

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Speaker 4: similar journey with the Iraq War as well, that even

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Speaker 4: though I was inside CIA and I knew some people

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Speaker 4: who were involved in the analysis, I believe that it

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Speaker 4: was true, and I'll have to say that a lot

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Speaker 4: of them did too. Now, how much is a lie

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Speaker 4: in a conspiracy to tell that lie, and how much

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Speaker 4: of it is quite frankly, just human error. Give us

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Speaker 4: your thoughts on the difference between lying with mailis a

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Speaker 4: forethought to achieve something, to create a conspiracy, and then

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Speaker 4: just like simple fuck ups and randomness in the world.

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Speaker 1: So disinformation is deliberately like misinforming people, So disinforming people,

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Speaker 1: and anyone who picks that disinformation up and spreads it

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Speaker 1: without knowing that it's a lie is spreading misinformation. And

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Speaker 1: I think that's definitely what happened with the Weapons of

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Speaker 1: mass destruction lie.

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Speaker 3: Can you explain a little bit why you think the

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Speaker 3: Truther view of the world is so powerful?

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Speaker 1: I think because it does give us an answer. It's

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Speaker 1: really good to bring it back to nine to eleven

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Speaker 1: because that was such a chaotic moment, such a traumatic

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Speaker 1: moment for everyone, Like pretty much everyone around the world

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Speaker 1: watched three thousand people die within an hour of the

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Speaker 1: two towers falling. We all needed to work out how

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Speaker 1: this happened, and these conspiracies that conspiracy pushers were pushing, essentially,

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Speaker 1: like everyone knows Alex Jones, and at the time it

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Speaker 1: was William Cooper was one of the big ones, Like

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Speaker 1: he was on air at the time saying this was

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Speaker 1: a conspiracy. But yeah, it gives us that order out

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Speaker 1: of chaos. To use another conspiracy term, like how could

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Speaker 1: America with all of its power, with all of its intelligence,

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Speaker 1: with everything that they have, Like, how did they let

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Speaker 1: this slip? How did they let nineteen high jackers take

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Speaker 1: four planes in one day? That just that shouldn't happen.

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Speaker 3: What is it about you you think made you susceptible

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Speaker 3: to going down this path? Why you? What is it

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Speaker 3: about your background, or your personality, or your feelings or

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Speaker 3: what have you that got you there?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, you seem like a really thoughtful, reasonable guy. You

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Speaker 4: generally do.

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Speaker 1: I think creativity does play a role. Creativity and intelligence

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Speaker 1: does play a role. It helps you imagine a situation

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Speaker 1: and then logic yourself into believing it. I think that

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Speaker 1: plays a big part in say, my personality. However, I

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Speaker 1: think the thing that brought me into the conspiracism in

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Speaker 1: the way that it did for nine to eleven, through

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Speaker 1: the anti war sentiment I had for going to Iraq.

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Speaker 1: I think that definitely ties into my background, and it

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Speaker 1: ties into being brought up in the military. My first stepfather,

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Speaker 1: he was in Vietnam. He was a Marine, he was

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Speaker 1: drafted and he went to Vietnam, and I didn't really

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Speaker 1: know very much about what happened until like later on,

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Speaker 1: but I can just say my childhood was not a

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Speaker 1: happy childhood with him. While he was in our life,

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Speaker 1: he had PTSD from a terrible experience in Vietnam. He drank,

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Speaker 1: he was abusive, He half beat my mother to death

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Speaker 1: one night, and then they discharged him from the military.

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Speaker 1: And that left quite a big scar on me. And

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Speaker 1: none of that really bubbled to the surface until the

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Speaker 1: First Gulf War happens in the nineties. At that time,

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Speaker 1: my mother is remarried to a man in the US

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Speaker 1: Air Force, and my friend's dads were starting to get

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Speaker 1: called to go to Iraq, and I remember being terrified

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Speaker 1: of my stepfather going there because of what had happened before.

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Speaker 1: Because this guy was sorry, not was is like the loveliest,

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Speaker 1: kindest person. He was such an amazing role model growing

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Speaker 1: up that I was terrified if he went to war

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Speaker 1: in Iraq, He's either going to die or is going

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Speaker 1: to come back and be like my first step father.

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Speaker 1: And I feel like that idea of war and what

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Speaker 1: it does to people I really shaped my sentiment, especially

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Speaker 1: when it came to again Iraq war, the second one,

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Speaker 1: Like I was so dead against that. I did not

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Speaker 1: want our citizens going to war over there and coming

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Speaker 1: back basically like my first step father with all these

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Speaker 1: troubles PTSD, alcoholism.

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Speaker 4: What were the benefits to being inside a conspiray theorist mindset.

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Speaker 1: I think at the beginning it was more to do

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Speaker 1: with having an answer, just oh, I know what happened,

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Speaker 1: then I know what's going on. I didn't really feel

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Speaker 1: empowered by it. I know that's a common thing that

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Speaker 1: has said, like people feel empowered by having this secret knowledge,

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Speaker 1: but I never genuinely had that. It's just that I

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Speaker 1: had a weird sort of comfort in knowing what was

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Speaker 1: going on, even though it was absolutely terrible.

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Speaker 4: Did you feel a missionary zeal to spread that word

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Speaker 4: as well? I'm going to like bring this to everyone.

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Speaker 1: Else I considered myself an activist. I was a truth activist.

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Speaker 1: I was a musician, I was a spoken word artist.

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Speaker 1: I was a rapper, and I've always been like putting

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Speaker 1: politics and my activism in music. So having that, I

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Speaker 1: had this other whole topic of stuff to talk about.

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Speaker 3: But can you help me understand or explain why the issue,

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Speaker 3: for example, a pedophilia crops up so often in these conspiracies.

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Speaker 3: It returns, it seems, again and again nowadays.

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Speaker 1: Well, so the most evil thing to do is the

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Speaker 1: most evil thing on this planet, basically being a pedophile

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Speaker 1: or a murderer or just like sacrificing children and stuff

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Speaker 1: like that. Yeah, it really paints people like as the worst,

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Speaker 1: so it drives your hate towards them.

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Speaker 4: A bit of a historian and the Roman Empire in

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Speaker 4: the Two Punic Wars, what was their charge against the

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Speaker 4: Phoenicians the Carthaginians? Was it they sacrificed their children? And

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Speaker 4: this is like a two five hundred year old conspiracy theory,

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Speaker 4: and modern archaeology has shown that when babies died early,

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Speaker 4: which a lot of in those days, a lot of

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Speaker 4: babies did, twenty to thirty percent never made it to

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Speaker 4: their first year. The babies were then cremated rather than buried,

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Speaker 4: and the Romans then turned that into their baby killers.

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Speaker 4: And this allows us to wage war and not to

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Speaker 4: just defeat them, but to exterminate Carthage. So yeah, exactly

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Speaker 4: that thing, even two thousand years ago.

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Speaker 1: Go even further back in the Old Testament, the Hebrews

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Speaker 1: are talking about the Canaanites serving their babies to molic

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Speaker 1: That's right, and that's probably propaganda as well, for at

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Speaker 1: the time.

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Speaker 4: The Canaanites were Phoenicians. So yeah, it's the same civilization.

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Speaker 1: It's incredibly emotive, and that's what you want to do.

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Speaker 1: If you want to manipulate people, that's what you do.

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Speaker 4: Brend I'd like to talk to you more about the

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Speaker 4: destructive impact of conspiracy theories on both the society and

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Speaker 4: on people and on families.

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Speaker 1: I got to be honest, like, when I was in it,

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Speaker 1: I didn't understand how dangerous it was because I didn't

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Speaker 1: really see it as a tool being used to manipulate

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Speaker 1: me by people that wanted to manipulate me or have

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Speaker 1: me on their side. I just thought it was people

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Speaker 1: trying to expose the truth, expose what was really going on.

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Speaker 1: But I have now being out of it, especially since

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Speaker 1: say twenty fifteen, watching political figures embrace conspiracism and push it,

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Speaker 1: and watching people who I'd never thought would They didn't

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Speaker 1: listen to a word I had to say when I

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Speaker 1: was a conspiracy theorist. Now like listening to them and

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Speaker 1: pushing the conspiracies that I used to believe in. That

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Speaker 1: was a real wake up call.

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Speaker 3: How did you come out of it? Was it a

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Speaker 3: slow process of coming out or was it one or

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Speaker 3: two key things that pushed you along there?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it was a very slow process which kind of

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Speaker 1: gained momentum. It took six years. Sandy Hook happens December

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Speaker 1: twenty twelve, and throughout all of twenty thirteen, the crisis

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Speaker 1: actor and hoax narrative becomes very prevalent in the truth movement,

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Speaker 1: and that went against everything that I was believing at

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Speaker 1: the time. At the time, I was believing that all

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Speaker 1: of these mass shootings, terrorist attacks, etc. Were essentially ritual sacrifices,

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Speaker 1: and so real people die in these things. And when

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Speaker 1: Alex Jones and many other people in the truth community

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Speaker 1: were pushing that these events were hoaxes and that the

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Speaker 1: people involved were crisis actors, so nobody dies. I had

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Speaker 1: a real problem with that because no, I really believed

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Speaker 1: these people were being murdered by them, the Illuminati, the

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Speaker 1: New World Order, the cult, whatever you want to call them.

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Speaker 1: And just to clarify, I wasn't the Jews. I was

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Speaker 1: never like a Jew World Order guy. I was always like,

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Speaker 1: it's them, all of them. The Queen was involved, and

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Speaker 1: Barack Obama was involved. But through twenty thirteen, this hoax

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Speaker 1: crisis actor narrative just became applied cut and paste every

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Speaker 1: time something happened. We had the Pulse nightclub shooting, the

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Speaker 1: Boston Marathon bombing, all leading up through twenty fourteen fifteen

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Speaker 1: up into the Charlie Hebdo shooting and the Paris Batic

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Speaker 1: clan and Nie attacks. Every single time something happened, my

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Speaker 1: Facebook would just light up with the whole community. He's

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Speaker 1: talking about, Oh, this is hoax, it's not real.

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Speaker 4: Look at this.

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Speaker 1: Crisis sector, that chrisis sector, and they'd show these pictures

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Speaker 1: and all throughout that time it was pulling me away

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Speaker 1: from the community and like making me isolate myself further

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Speaker 1: into my belief but not vibing with what they were saying.

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Speaker 1: And then between twenty fifteen and twenty eighteen, so much

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Speaker 1: stuff happened on the world stage that just made me question, like,

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Speaker 1: is the New World Order actually in charge here? Because

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Speaker 1: there was three massive things. To me. First, it was

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Speaker 1: the election of Trump. It wasn't just because it was Trump,

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Speaker 1: but the idea was like Hillary Clinton had been primed

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Speaker 1: for this job for years, so she was supposed to

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Speaker 1: be the person who took over because she was a

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Speaker 1: New World Order. But Trump won and I could see

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Speaker 1: him Alex Jones on Info Wars and all these other things,

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Speaker 1: and I was like, what, how is this guy getting

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Speaker 1: into the highest office in America? That doesn't make sense,

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Speaker 1: especially when he's popular amongst the conspiracy theorists. So this

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Speaker 1: is really strange. So we had that, and then here

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Speaker 1: in England we had the Brexit vote, and the Brexit

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Speaker 1: vote pulled us away from the European Union, and that

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Speaker 1: was just it just did not make sense in the

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Speaker 1: grand scheme of things of the New World Order's goal

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Speaker 1: is a one world government, a police state around the

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Speaker 1: entire world. But we had a guy called Jeremy Corbyn

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Speaker 1: take over the Labor Party and Corbyn was like a

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Speaker 1: left wing populist so him being able to take over

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Speaker 1: the Labor Party, which is basically if Bernie Sanders took

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Speaker 1: over the Democrats. It wasn't going to be allowed, was he.

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Speaker 1: And I had always thought every single vote, every single

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Speaker 1: election was a see election, it was nothing to do

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Speaker 1: with us. Leaders were selected, not elected. However, those three

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Speaker 1: votes and watching it all happen on social media, watching

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Speaker 1: people move, it just made almost everything fall apart for

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Speaker 1: me at that time. So I had to log off

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Speaker 1: and that's when I did. I just lugged off of Facebook.

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Speaker 1: And yeah, just over that twenty eighteen to twenty twenty one,

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Speaker 1: even more things started to happen, and I was just like,

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Speaker 1: I think I've been wrong the whole time, and I

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Speaker 1: need to go figure out why.

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Speaker 4: QAnon famously said trust the plan. So you didn't trust

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Speaker 4: the plan, there's your mistake.

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Speaker 2: Let's take a break.

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Speaker 6: We'll be right back.

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Speaker 4: And Rebecca, it's funny you cite two things that I

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Speaker 4: think it's plausible and I'm open to actual there being

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Speaker 4: a conspiracy. One being that Russian disinformation attempted to or

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Speaker 4: did have some impact on the Brexit vote, or at

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Speaker 4: least they tried to. And it's clear that the US

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Speaker 4: intelligence community did say that Russia did conspire and did

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Speaker 4: attempt to impact the US election to get Trump elected.

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Speaker 4: So it's funny that the two things that you that

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Speaker 4: broke your sense of conspiracy theories may have had elements

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Speaker 4: of a genuine conspiracy attached. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, this is what I've learned after. Oh so

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Speaker 1: they were conspiracies, just not the conspiracy I thought, because

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Speaker 1: that's my problem is it was a big, grand conspiracy.

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Speaker 4: What was the impact on your family and your relationships

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Speaker 4: when you went down the rabbit hole? Were you ostracized

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Speaker 4: or nobody wanted your round anymore? Did they still put

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Speaker 4: up with you, did they try to reason with you?

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Speaker 4: And what was the impact? Did you lose friends? Family?

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Speaker 1: So the first few years while I was descending down

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Speaker 1: that hole with my family, they were like quite understanding

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Speaker 1: because I was always into very fringe topics and my

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Speaker 1: mum just said, it's a phase, like just let him

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Speaker 1: go through this, whatever he's going through. But I came

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Speaker 1: to realize they didn't want to talk about it, so

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Speaker 1: no one really pushed me away. But I did isolate

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Speaker 1: myself because they didn't want to talk about it, especially

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Speaker 1: when it came to my friends. I was in a band,

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Speaker 1: and I would stop going to the after parties at

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Speaker 1: the gig. So I turn up to the gig, do

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Speaker 1: our set, and then I go home. I pulled myself

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Speaker 1: away from my social circle.

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Speaker 3: Nowadays, obviously to your credit, you're trying to help people.

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Speaker 3: And as part of what your podcast is about and

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Speaker 3: what you speak about, what is the hardest thing about

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Speaker 3: trying to do that, What kind of success do you have,

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Speaker 3: and what is the biggest challenges You try to talk

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Speaker 3: about your experience and to help others so that they

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Speaker 3: don't go down the same rabbit hole.

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Speaker 1: The things I face now are that I'm part of

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Speaker 1: the conspiracy. This is now my favorite conspiracy theory that

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Speaker 1: I'm a part of it.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to the club man, good audience.

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Speaker 4: People who are listening, who are conspiracy curious, who maybe

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Speaker 4: dabbling ways that they could extradite themselves or explore things

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Speaker 4: in a way that doesn't bring them deeper in like

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Speaker 4: what happened to you Initially.

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Speaker 1: All I would say is if you are inquisitive, if

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Speaker 1: you are really questioning everything due, please question everything. Question

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Speaker 1: all sides of the argument, because there's not two sides.

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Speaker 1: That's a bit of a false dichotomy. There's many sides

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Speaker 1: to these. Just because something disagrees with you doesn't mean

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Speaker 1: it's government propaganda or it's them or something. Just look

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Speaker 1: at everything. Honestly, I encourage people to actually go down

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Speaker 1: and look at this stuff. But you have to look

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Speaker 1: at everything because sometimes a conspiracy can be true. But

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Speaker 1: try not to get wrapped up in too many of them.

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Speaker 1: We're taught that to be fair by the big conspiracists

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Speaker 1: like Alex Jones, like David Ake, and they would always say,

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Speaker 1: in those first hours of chaos, the truth comes out

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Speaker 1: and then the official story comes out later. So we

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Speaker 1: were looking for that, and this is what they do.

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Speaker 1: They pick out all these little inconsistencies where people have

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Speaker 1: just got things wrong. Essentially, then jump the gun. That's

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Speaker 1: what we dig into, and we use that to paint

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Speaker 1: the rest of it as lies.

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Speaker 3: I find that fascinating because in our world, I know

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Speaker 3: where you're going. When we were overseas or be a crisis,

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Speaker 3: our instinct and what we're taught is the first things

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Speaker 3: that come out are going to probably be wrong.

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Speaker 4: Oh absolutely, especially in a crisis. I was in a

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Speaker 4: rock when ISIS was taking over part of the country,

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Speaker 4: and whenever something would happen, there'd be a battle. It

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Speaker 4: would take us a day or two to figure out

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Speaker 4: statistically what's going on, because, especially when you're in a

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Speaker 4: crisis situation, people reporting things very quickly, and very often

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Speaker 4: you get them wrong. So, Brent, was there a Damna

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Speaker 4: scene moment? Was there a specific moment in your background

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Speaker 4: where you really started to question where it clicked?

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Speaker 1: So in twenty eighteen, I was scrolling through Facebook and

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Speaker 1: I kept seeing people posting about crisis actors or Qan

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Speaker 1: on Israel, flat Earth clones, all these different things. I

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Speaker 1: just I didn't agree with it, and it was just

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Speaker 1: my community just pushing it, and I remember thinking, I

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Speaker 1: don't want to hear this anymore. I don't want to

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Speaker 1: see this on my feed anymore. And that was the

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Speaker 1: day I logged out of it. It wasn't until later

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Speaker 1: that year I was writing lyrics. I was trying to

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Speaker 1: make a new album and I was going through the

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Speaker 1: writing process and it just clicked all of a sudden.

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Speaker 1: I don't think I believe this. I feel like I'm

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Speaker 1: just repeating tropes, falling back on ideas that I've had.

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Speaker 1: But I'm writing this and it doesn't actually feel genuine anymore.

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Speaker 1: And those were like the moments where I was just thought,

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Speaker 1: I need to really reevaluate everything here because what's just

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Speaker 1: been going on for the last three years and the

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Speaker 1: political scene doesn't make sense. So I need to take

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Speaker 1: some time off and try and figure this out. And

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Speaker 1: the best thing about it is me and my partner.

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Speaker 1: We got together in twenty ten and we're still together today,

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Speaker 1: and we went through this process together because we were

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Speaker 1: watching things, we were seeing it all happen, and we

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Speaker 1: were able to bounce these ideas off each other, like

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Speaker 1: when one of us had a doubt, we were able

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Speaker 1: to question it with the other person. And to be fair, like,

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Speaker 1: it wasn't super shattering until I realized that I was out,

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Speaker 1: and then it just fell apart, like leaving a religion

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Speaker 1: or leaving a cult or something like that. It's the

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Speaker 1: only thing I can compare it to.

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Speaker 3: As you came out of this and started to change,

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Speaker 3: did you maintain the same friend network? How did your

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Speaker 3: relationships change from before to after?

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Speaker 1: When I went down, I isolated myself. When I came out,

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Speaker 1: I isolated myself from the new group of friends. And

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Speaker 1: when I came back to tell people that I was out. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I got a bit of backlash for that. Like at

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Speaker 1: that point, I wasn't isolating myself. I was being kicked

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Speaker 1: out of the community. They just blocked me, unfriended me,

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Speaker 1: just everyone just completely left, and again I just had

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Speaker 1: to rebuild. It does suck, though, to be fair, I

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Speaker 1: did have friends in the truth Or community that were

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Speaker 1: all musicians, and we had supported each other and supported

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Speaker 1: each other's art in this like fringe element of society,

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Speaker 1: and I built relationships with some of these people for

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Speaker 1: a good ten years. And to have some of them

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Speaker 1: really turn their back on me like it did hurt.

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Speaker 1: There's about four people that I'm really gutted that they

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Speaker 1: don't want to be my friend, they don't want to

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Speaker 1: talk to me because I loved them like they were

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Speaker 1: my brothers. But it's gone.

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Speaker 4: There's a few.

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Speaker 1: Others though, that kept me kept along and they're like, hey,

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Speaker 1: whatever do you believe I don't understand how you've done it.

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Speaker 1: I can't understand how you don't see it still, but hey,

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Speaker 1: I know you're not a shill. I know you're not

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Speaker 1: bought off or an ething and we're all on our

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Speaker 1: own paths and they still respect me for walking my path.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, sometimes it's hard, other times it's whatever.

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Speaker 4: And when you came out, were people ready to accept

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Speaker 4: you back again? If you were defriended you illicially left

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Speaker 4: when you came back six years later.

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Speaker 1: Now, when I came back as not a conspiracist anymore

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Speaker 1: in the previous few years, those same people have sent

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Speaker 1: me messages and been like, Wow, I'm so surprised that

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Speaker 1: you turned yourself around after all of this. They were

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Speaker 1: my really good friends, and they completely welcomed me with

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Speaker 1: open arms. There's glad that I'm back, and glad that

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Speaker 1: I'm thinking critically now not so wrapped up in and

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Speaker 1: all this stuff that I was wrapped up in. And

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Speaker 1: they're proud. They're really proud of what I'm doing today.

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Speaker 1: They're proud that I'm able to talk about this thing

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Speaker 1: that basically happened, and they're proud that I'm trying to

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Speaker 1: help bring more people out and also letting everyone understand

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Speaker 1: what it's like to be a conspiracist, what it's like

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Speaker 1: being isolated in all of this. That's what they're very

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Speaker 1: proud of that I've been able to explain that all right, Well, Brat.

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Speaker 2: It's been fantastic to get to know you.

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Speaker 3: You know, are very excited about your podcast and what

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Speaker 3: you're trying to do when we give you a hell

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Speaker 3: of a lot of credit for doing that, and thank

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Speaker 3: you so much for spending some time with us.

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Speaker 1: Thank you, guys both for inviting me, thanks for speaking

436
00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:09,280
Speaker 1: to me. It's been absolutely pleasure.

437
00:23:10,520 --> 00:23:13,320
Speaker 4: That was great. We have a second guest. We're really

438
00:23:13,359 --> 00:23:16,760
Speaker 4: pleased today to have Sandra Fenderlin. He's a professor of

439
00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:21,240
Speaker 4: social psychology Cambridge University and a research affiliate at Yale.

440
00:23:21,680 --> 00:23:26,240
Speaker 4: He's a leading academic expert in the field of social influencing, risk,

441
00:23:26,600 --> 00:23:29,639
Speaker 4: human judgment, and decision making. He's also the author of

442
00:23:29,680 --> 00:23:34,720
Speaker 4: a really great book, Foolproof, Why Misinformation infects Our Minds

443
00:23:34,760 --> 00:23:38,280
Speaker 4: and How to Build Immunity. The Financial Times voted this

444
00:23:38,400 --> 00:23:42,560
Speaker 4: the best nonfiction book of twenty twenty three. So, Sandra,

445
00:23:42,680 --> 00:23:45,040
Speaker 4: welcome today. It's really good, heaven y On, thanks so

446
00:23:45,119 --> 00:23:48,080
Speaker 4: much for having me on. So said, let's begin with

447
00:23:48,440 --> 00:23:52,120
Speaker 4: kool aid. Okay, So the expression drinking the kool aid

448
00:23:52,280 --> 00:23:55,600
Speaker 4: comes from when a cult Jim Jones people temple and

449
00:23:55,680 --> 00:23:57,800
Speaker 4: acting on a conspiracy theory that they were about to

450
00:23:57,840 --> 00:24:02,680
Speaker 4: be attacked by the US military, CINAID blased great kool aid.

451
00:24:02,880 --> 00:24:05,400
Speaker 4: What can you tell us about the overlap between cults

452
00:24:05,520 --> 00:24:08,800
Speaker 4: and conspiracy theories and why is it that people choose

453
00:24:08,880 --> 00:24:10,040
Speaker 4: to drink the kool aid?

454
00:24:10,280 --> 00:24:12,719
Speaker 6: Yeah, that's a great question. I think to some extent,

455
00:24:12,800 --> 00:24:17,440
Speaker 6: we like to differentiate belief in everyday conspiracy theories from

456
00:24:17,720 --> 00:24:20,679
Speaker 6: the cult psychology. I think cults take it to the

457
00:24:20,760 --> 00:24:23,760
Speaker 6: next level in terms that they're often what we refer

458
00:24:23,840 --> 00:24:26,280
Speaker 6: to as high control groups. Let's say you believe in

459
00:24:26,320 --> 00:24:28,280
Speaker 6: one conspiracy theory and that's the end of it, and

460
00:24:28,320 --> 00:24:30,560
Speaker 6: you live your life and you're free to do whatever.

461
00:24:30,760 --> 00:24:33,000
Speaker 6: But when you're in a cult, you're really under a

462
00:24:33,040 --> 00:24:35,600
Speaker 6: high amount of social pressure to conform to the norms

463
00:24:35,600 --> 00:24:37,600
Speaker 6: of the cult and not just buy into their theory,

464
00:24:37,640 --> 00:24:40,879
Speaker 6: but also perform in a way follow the actions of

465
00:24:40,920 --> 00:24:44,439
Speaker 6: the leaders, and you get punished mentally, physically sometimes for

466
00:24:44,560 --> 00:24:46,680
Speaker 6: not following those rules. And so one of the things

467
00:24:46,680 --> 00:24:50,840
Speaker 6: we monitor often is the transition from when somebody believes

468
00:24:50,880 --> 00:24:54,359
Speaker 6: in the conspiracy to believing in multiple conspiracies that are

469
00:24:54,400 --> 00:24:58,040
Speaker 6: potentially joining a cult. QAnon has, as you guys know,

470
00:24:58,160 --> 00:25:01,919
Speaker 6: evolved from a single conspiracy to almost cult status that

471
00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:04,320
Speaker 6: is I think a good example where a conspiracy actually

472
00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:08,000
Speaker 6: transforms into a cult. It has a following, and members

473
00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:12,919
Speaker 6: become more extreme within that following, really endorse the rules

474
00:25:12,920 --> 00:25:16,160
Speaker 6: as if it's a godlike written script, and it's very

475
00:25:16,160 --> 00:25:19,000
Speaker 6: difficult to pull people away from that. You can argue

476
00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:21,639
Speaker 6: with people about conspiracy theory, but getting people out of

477
00:25:21,680 --> 00:25:24,680
Speaker 6: a cult is a whole different story because as cults

478
00:25:24,760 --> 00:25:27,240
Speaker 6: have a playbook and we can get into that, but

479
00:25:27,480 --> 00:25:31,119
Speaker 6: conspiracy theories often use parts of that playbook but are

480
00:25:31,160 --> 00:25:31,840
Speaker 6: not as extreme.

481
00:25:32,200 --> 00:25:34,240
Speaker 3: So Andra explaining why why is this so hard to

482
00:25:34,320 --> 00:25:37,439
Speaker 3: debunk conspiracies and pull people out of the rabbit hole.

483
00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:40,280
Speaker 3: It seems like it's easier to sow, dealt and resolved out.

484
00:25:40,680 --> 00:25:40,880
Speaker 4: Yeah.

485
00:25:40,880 --> 00:25:43,600
Speaker 6: Absolutely, So I have this bad dad joke that kind

486
00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:46,120
Speaker 6: of explains the psychology of it. Are you ready it's

487
00:25:46,160 --> 00:25:49,000
Speaker 6: a perfect place for life? Yeah, okay, it's the perfect place.

488
00:25:49,040 --> 00:25:49,440
Speaker 4: Okay.

489
00:25:49,880 --> 00:25:53,359
Speaker 6: So there's this guy, right, conspiracy theorist, and unfortunately he

490
00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:56,600
Speaker 6: dies and goes to heaven, and then God him or

491
00:25:56,640 --> 00:26:00,879
Speaker 6: herself is waiting at the pearly gates, and this conspiracy

492
00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:03,520
Speaker 6: theorist says, look, God, I gotta tell you this whole

493
00:26:03,560 --> 00:26:07,240
Speaker 6: earth thing. You have to admit, right, the Earth is flat.

494
00:26:07,320 --> 00:26:09,760
Speaker 6: You know you can't see the horizon. I have all

495
00:26:09,760 --> 00:26:12,880
Speaker 6: these facts right the earth. The earth is flat. I mean,

496
00:26:12,920 --> 00:26:15,639
Speaker 6: you supposedly created it, so you tell me. And so

497
00:26:16,040 --> 00:26:19,119
Speaker 6: God kind of frowns and looks the conspiracist in the

498
00:26:19,160 --> 00:26:21,120
Speaker 6: eye and says, I hate to break it to you,

499
00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:25,479
Speaker 6: but I can tell you for sure the Earth is round.

500
00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:28,280
Speaker 6: It is not flat like a pancake. It is round.

501
00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:31,120
Speaker 6: And so the conspiracy theorist goes, damn, this thing goes

502
00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:34,040
Speaker 6: higher up than I thought. And that's the psychology of

503
00:26:34,080 --> 00:26:37,600
Speaker 6: trying to debunk conspiracy theorists. On a more serious note,

504
00:26:37,600 --> 00:26:41,680
Speaker 6: there's this thing we call the conspiratorial worldview, which is

505
00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:45,080
Speaker 6: what we call monological belief system, which is a fancy

506
00:26:45,080 --> 00:26:48,480
Speaker 6: word for saying that belief in one conspiracy serves as

507
00:26:48,520 --> 00:26:51,560
Speaker 6: evidence for the existence of other conspiracy theories. And so

508
00:26:51,600 --> 00:26:55,320
Speaker 6: when you try to debunk conspiracy theories, debunking one is

509
00:26:55,359 --> 00:26:59,160
Speaker 6: often unsuccessful because they'll just jump to a higher order

510
00:26:59,359 --> 00:27:02,200
Speaker 6: conspiracy that sort of explains it all. And so typically

511
00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:03,879
Speaker 6: what you get is that if you try to create

512
00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:06,080
Speaker 6: this what we call local incoherence, so you point out

513
00:27:06,119 --> 00:27:09,840
Speaker 6: about oh, oh, maybe Obama's birth certificate was fake. Then

514
00:27:09,880 --> 00:27:12,680
Speaker 6: they come up with a higher order conspiracy. If you

515
00:27:12,720 --> 00:27:14,960
Speaker 6: try to debunk, that sort of explains the inconsistency. And

516
00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:17,560
Speaker 6: there's been interesting studies on that. For example, Osama bin Laden.

517
00:27:17,640 --> 00:27:19,760
Speaker 6: So one of the studies asked people, oh, do you

518
00:27:19,760 --> 00:27:22,359
Speaker 6: think he was already dead when the troops arrived? And

519
00:27:22,359 --> 00:27:24,960
Speaker 6: then people say yes, And then how about this other

520
00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:27,919
Speaker 6: theory that suggests that he's still alive somewhere, and people

521
00:27:27,920 --> 00:27:30,800
Speaker 6: say yes. And so the idea is that you know

522
00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:34,159
Speaker 6: that somehow when you point out this contradiction, it's not

523
00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:37,800
Speaker 6: strange for people because local contradictions are allowed because there's

524
00:27:37,840 --> 00:27:41,560
Speaker 6: this higher order conspiracy that connects both accounts into this

525
00:27:41,680 --> 00:27:45,280
Speaker 6: higher order conspiracy that it's the government's behind things, that's

526
00:27:45,320 --> 00:27:48,720
Speaker 6: the overarching concern for this particular example, and that can

527
00:27:48,760 --> 00:27:51,919
Speaker 6: explain away any consistencies. Yeah, So coming back to the

528
00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:56,120
Speaker 6: cult's ideology, it's a system of beliefs that's shaped very

529
00:27:56,200 --> 00:27:59,280
Speaker 6: much like what you experience in cults. Sometimes that people

530
00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:01,200
Speaker 6: just jumped to the next level on the next level,

531
00:28:01,480 --> 00:28:04,080
Speaker 6: and that's why I often don't try to debunk conspiracy.

532
00:28:04,080 --> 00:28:06,399
Speaker 6: It's a good example is Neil the Grass Pyson trying

533
00:28:06,440 --> 00:28:10,880
Speaker 6: to debunk the wrapper Bob's belief in a flat Earth conspiracy.

534
00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:13,879
Speaker 6: So basically he tries to repeatedly point out why to

535
00:28:13,960 --> 00:28:17,679
Speaker 6: the celebrity, why the Earth using physics, why the Earth

536
00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:20,960
Speaker 6: really isn't flat, and it just falls on deaf ears

537
00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:23,679
Speaker 6: and Bob still joined the Flat Earth Society. Neil the

538
00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:26,040
Speaker 6: Grass even made a track called flat the Fact to

539
00:28:26,040 --> 00:28:28,280
Speaker 6: try to convince him, but unsuccessfully.

540
00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:30,359
Speaker 7: You say the Earth is flattened, and you try to

541
00:28:30,359 --> 00:28:33,399
Speaker 7: disrespect him. I'll bringing facts to the badest silly theory

542
00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:36,119
Speaker 7: because Bob has got to know the planet is a spait.

543
00:28:36,240 --> 00:28:39,280
Speaker 2: G Wolves, let's sec break co right back.

544
00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:41,720
Speaker 7: You say that Nils vesus what he needs to loosen

545
00:28:41,800 --> 00:28:48,080
Speaker 7: numb the Brothers getting stayed when the ignorance you're spinning

546
00:28:48,120 --> 00:28:49,920
Speaker 7: helps to keep people enslaved.

547
00:28:49,520 --> 00:28:52,320
Speaker 4: I mean, and we're back, you go me. Once people

548
00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:55,160
Speaker 4: are in and they're down the rabbit hole, it's really

549
00:28:55,240 --> 00:28:58,160
Speaker 4: hard to deprogram and pull them out. But you're doing

550
00:28:58,200 --> 00:29:00,400
Speaker 4: a lot of research I understand on what to do

551
00:29:00,440 --> 00:29:02,840
Speaker 4: to vet people from falling in in the first place. Right,

552
00:29:02,880 --> 00:29:05,080
Speaker 4: some really groundbreaking stuff. Could you maybe take us to

553
00:29:05,200 --> 00:29:07,200
Speaker 4: real briefly, what inoculation theory is.

554
00:29:07,520 --> 00:29:09,400
Speaker 6: We start to use that we'd pre bunking because it's

555
00:29:09,400 --> 00:29:12,080
Speaker 6: easier for people to understand, and as you said, it's

556
00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:14,840
Speaker 6: very difficult to try to give people the radicalized. It

557
00:29:14,880 --> 00:29:16,920
Speaker 6: takes a long time, it's very hard to do. Even

558
00:29:16,960 --> 00:29:19,800
Speaker 6: debunking can be difficult to do. I've switched my attention

559
00:29:19,840 --> 00:29:22,600
Speaker 6: to the idea of prevention, and it follows the medical analogy.

560
00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:25,480
Speaker 6: So the idea is that your body produces antibodies to

561
00:29:25,480 --> 00:29:27,880
Speaker 6: help for resistance against future infection. But it turns out

562
00:29:27,880 --> 00:29:29,640
Speaker 6: you can do the same with the mind. And in fact,

563
00:29:29,720 --> 00:29:32,360
Speaker 6: this whole idea emerged because the US government at that

564
00:29:32,480 --> 00:29:35,000
Speaker 6: time was thinking, hey, we need to double down on

565
00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:39,200
Speaker 6: instilling American values in American soldiers because they don't seem

566
00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:43,000
Speaker 6: prepared to answer questions like whi's capitalism good? Or why

567
00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:45,360
Speaker 6: are you fighting this war? And so on, and they

568
00:29:45,360 --> 00:29:47,680
Speaker 6: didn't have what we call mental defenses against the types

569
00:29:47,720 --> 00:29:50,240
Speaker 6: of counter arguments that were being raised by foreign troops.

570
00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:52,480
Speaker 6: But the government's response was, we need to give people

571
00:29:52,480 --> 00:29:55,280
Speaker 6: more facts about why the US is great, whereas the

572
00:29:55,320 --> 00:29:57,840
Speaker 6: psychologists at the time said, maybe we shouldn't give people

573
00:29:57,920 --> 00:30:01,600
Speaker 6: more facts. We should expose them in simulation form to

574
00:30:01,680 --> 00:30:04,560
Speaker 6: what it's like to being attacked on your belief system,

575
00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:07,840
Speaker 6: and then help them resist and refute these attempts so

576
00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:10,520
Speaker 6: that that become more immune when it actually happens. And

577
00:30:10,520 --> 00:30:13,520
Speaker 6: that's really the core idea of inoculation. Of course, you

578
00:30:13,520 --> 00:30:15,960
Speaker 6: always get into the discussion. If it's your country, we

579
00:30:16,040 --> 00:30:19,080
Speaker 6: call it education. If it's another country, it's called propaganda.

580
00:30:19,120 --> 00:30:21,600
Speaker 6: Irrespective of the content of what we're talking about, the

581
00:30:21,640 --> 00:30:24,400
Speaker 6: technique is just the neutral device, and we're using it

582
00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:26,120
Speaker 6: to help people identify misinformation.

583
00:30:26,360 --> 00:30:26,960
Speaker 2: I think it's true.

584
00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:29,360
Speaker 3: You will see the fact checking after the fact and

585
00:30:29,400 --> 00:30:30,840
Speaker 3: debunking doesn't seem to be enough.

586
00:30:31,040 --> 00:30:34,720
Speaker 6: Part of the spread of misinformation online is leading people

587
00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:39,680
Speaker 6: to quote unquote alternative facts, alternative knowledge, and alternative claims,

588
00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:43,480
Speaker 6: which creates the sense of distrust around official narratives and

589
00:30:43,560 --> 00:30:46,280
Speaker 6: around experts. And I think that has to do with

590
00:30:46,320 --> 00:30:49,440
Speaker 6: the more fundamental misunderstanding of how science works. And we

591
00:30:49,480 --> 00:30:52,120
Speaker 6: know that from experiments that when you tell people something

592
00:30:52,560 --> 00:30:55,960
Speaker 6: and then the science changes, and then you tell people

593
00:30:56,000 --> 00:30:59,160
Speaker 6: that it's now different, the conclusion is often that, hence

594
00:30:59,160 --> 00:31:02,080
Speaker 6: scientists are in competent, and of course the consensus amongst

595
00:31:02,120 --> 00:31:04,800
Speaker 6: government agencies is different from what scientists are saying, and

596
00:31:04,840 --> 00:31:05,800
Speaker 6: that's confusing to people.

597
00:31:06,160 --> 00:31:07,920
Speaker 4: Well, the best way to fix science is more and

598
00:31:07,960 --> 00:31:10,120
Speaker 4: better science, right, Although I could say the best way

599
00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:12,000
Speaker 4: to fix a conspiracy theory is just more and better

600
00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:12,880
Speaker 4: conspiracy theories.

601
00:31:13,000 --> 00:31:14,520
Speaker 6: I love that idea.

602
00:31:14,680 --> 00:31:17,120
Speaker 4: There is actually an interesting historical parallel to this. So

603
00:31:17,360 --> 00:31:21,120
Speaker 4: the Thirty Years War in Europe, arguably one of the

604
00:31:21,160 --> 00:31:24,880
Speaker 4: reasons that it happened was because of the printing press. Suddenly,

605
00:31:24,960 --> 00:31:29,040
Speaker 4: for the first time, there wasn't one entity that had

606
00:31:29,200 --> 00:31:33,080
Speaker 4: a monopoly on truth. People were printing whatever they wanted

607
00:31:33,200 --> 00:31:36,360
Speaker 4: about religion, and all of a sudden, you had different

608
00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:40,360
Speaker 4: theories about all sorts of bits about religion and Christianity,

609
00:31:40,640 --> 00:31:42,640
Speaker 4: and people went to war for thirty years and tore

610
00:31:42,760 --> 00:31:45,840
Speaker 4: Europe apart trying to figure out what is truth? Who

611
00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:49,840
Speaker 4: decides what are facts? And people lived in those days

612
00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:53,760
Speaker 4: in their own micro information bubbles by deciding what you read,

613
00:31:54,240 --> 00:31:56,760
Speaker 4: and so I think this is a problem that we're

614
00:31:56,760 --> 00:31:59,200
Speaker 4: going to have for a long time. I did want

615
00:31:59,240 --> 00:32:01,959
Speaker 4: to ask you about the Pineapple Pizza game, which you're

616
00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:02,800
Speaker 4: famous for, right.

617
00:32:03,400 --> 00:32:07,800
Speaker 6: We did this game with homeland security, specifically SISA Cyber

618
00:32:07,920 --> 00:32:12,160
Speaker 6: Infrastructure Security Agency, and Chris Krebs, who at the time

619
00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:15,680
Speaker 6: was heading CASA, came up with this pineapple pizza idea

620
00:32:16,080 --> 00:32:21,000
Speaker 6: and the goal was, can we inoculate Americans against foreign

621
00:32:21,120 --> 00:32:24,400
Speaker 6: influence techniques that are used by bad actors during elections?

622
00:32:24,760 --> 00:32:26,720
Speaker 6: And of course, the first part of this process is

623
00:32:26,720 --> 00:32:29,400
Speaker 6: always breaking down if we follow the public health analogy

624
00:32:29,400 --> 00:32:31,400
Speaker 6: with the structure of the viruses in a way, so

625
00:32:31,440 --> 00:32:33,520
Speaker 6: what are the key building blocks? So what's the playbook

626
00:32:33,560 --> 00:32:35,720
Speaker 6: that they use? Can we then break that down for

627
00:32:35,800 --> 00:32:39,000
Speaker 6: people in a way that's fun and digestible so that

628
00:32:39,160 --> 00:32:41,760
Speaker 6: we can then inoculate and create this resistance in a

629
00:32:41,760 --> 00:32:45,160
Speaker 6: simulated environment. And that's really what Harmony Square was. And

630
00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:48,120
Speaker 6: so Harmony Square is a ridiculous game, but it's a

631
00:32:48,120 --> 00:32:50,520
Speaker 6: fake news game. And so you start out in your

632
00:32:50,600 --> 00:32:54,160
Speaker 6: role as chief disinformation officer, and your goal is to

633
00:32:54,160 --> 00:32:57,840
Speaker 6: try to create chaos in this fictional town called Harmony Square.

634
00:32:58,080 --> 00:33:02,120
Speaker 6: And they have an annual swan and also a Pineapple

635
00:33:02,160 --> 00:33:04,920
Speaker 6: Pizza festival, and it kind of starts in this way

636
00:33:04,960 --> 00:33:07,160
Speaker 6: that one of your options is to try to steal

637
00:33:07,440 --> 00:33:10,800
Speaker 6: the swan and then the game narrator says are you crazy,

638
00:33:10,920 --> 00:33:12,640
Speaker 6: that's illegal. You know, you have to come up with

639
00:33:12,760 --> 00:33:16,280
Speaker 6: something that isn't going to get you arrested. This information actors,

640
00:33:16,280 --> 00:33:19,240
Speaker 6: they don't go and steal statues. And so you learn

641
00:33:19,280 --> 00:33:21,880
Speaker 6: that there's an election going on for the local bear patroller,

642
00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:25,040
Speaker 6: even though there's no bears in Harmony Square. But they

643
00:33:25,080 --> 00:33:27,800
Speaker 6: just love elections. They love the idea of democracy, and

644
00:33:27,840 --> 00:33:30,560
Speaker 6: they just love having elections. And your goals is disrupted.

645
00:33:30,800 --> 00:33:32,880
Speaker 6: And the pineapple pizza metaphor comes in is that the

646
00:33:32,920 --> 00:33:35,320
Speaker 6: techniques that are used and we break down for people

647
00:33:35,320 --> 00:33:38,200
Speaker 6: are the following. So you take an innocuous issue, should

648
00:33:38,200 --> 00:33:46,680
Speaker 6: you put pineapple on pizza? Maligne actors, that's the first step, right,

649
00:33:46,720 --> 00:33:50,240
Speaker 6: And then then you start controversy and say the Italians

650
00:33:50,240 --> 00:33:52,720
Speaker 6: they're going to be offended by pineapple and pizza. Right,

651
00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:55,680
Speaker 6: it's a cultural that's just culturally inappropriate. And then other

652
00:33:55,720 --> 00:33:58,000
Speaker 6: people say, nobody's going to tell me what topic to

653
00:33:58,040 --> 00:34:01,200
Speaker 6: put on my pizza. Right, you can't restraint pizza topping freedom,

654
00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:04,800
Speaker 6: pizza amendment rights. And then the next step, after you

655
00:34:04,880 --> 00:34:08,200
Speaker 6: stir up debates on both sides, is a false amplification.

656
00:34:08,400 --> 00:34:10,319
Speaker 6: So now you're going to have to buy bots there's

657
00:34:10,360 --> 00:34:14,040
Speaker 6: a whole market for this bots through fake SMS, phones

658
00:34:14,080 --> 00:34:16,319
Speaker 6: and lots of accounts, and then you blow it up

659
00:34:16,560 --> 00:34:19,160
Speaker 6: on both sides. So it's meant to be a bit sarcastic, right,

660
00:34:19,160 --> 00:34:20,759
Speaker 6: But you go through these techniques and then we test

661
00:34:20,760 --> 00:34:23,440
Speaker 6: people though with real social media content that use these

662
00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:26,680
Speaker 6: techniques from past events and as well stuff people might

663
00:34:26,680 --> 00:34:28,640
Speaker 6: come across, and yeah, we find people are now better

664
00:34:28,680 --> 00:34:31,920
Speaker 6: able to recognize and resist these techniques. You know, one

665
00:34:31,960 --> 00:34:34,440
Speaker 6: of the more general theories is that conspiracy theories are

666
00:34:34,440 --> 00:34:36,719
Speaker 6: for losers. And so what we mean by that is

667
00:34:37,120 --> 00:34:39,600
Speaker 6: when you're out of power, the party or the group

668
00:34:39,640 --> 00:34:41,680
Speaker 6: that's out of power that was more likely to think

669
00:34:41,719 --> 00:34:44,440
Speaker 6: that the group who is currently in power is conspiring

670
00:34:44,480 --> 00:34:47,400
Speaker 6: against them, and that switches depending on who's in power.

671
00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:49,960
Speaker 6: And that's why we like to say conspiracies are for losers,

672
00:34:49,960 --> 00:34:52,319
Speaker 6: because the people in power are never coming up with

673
00:34:52,400 --> 00:34:55,439
Speaker 6: the conspiracy that those out of power are plotting against them.

674
00:34:55,560 --> 00:34:57,399
Speaker 6: And the funny thing is that we create this new

675
00:34:57,400 --> 00:35:00,680
Speaker 6: game called cat Park and it's about educating people conspiracy

676
00:35:00,680 --> 00:35:02,480
Speaker 6: theories and the idea is that you arrive in your

677
00:35:02,560 --> 00:35:06,040
Speaker 6: new apartment, do your noodles, and it's messy, and so

678
00:35:06,080 --> 00:35:08,080
Speaker 6: the bad news is that you have a new apartment,

679
00:35:08,160 --> 00:35:09,600
Speaker 6: new city, and the bad news is you don't have

680
00:35:09,640 --> 00:35:12,760
Speaker 6: any friends. And so you get this ping from a

681
00:35:12,760 --> 00:35:15,840
Speaker 6: shady actor down at the local bar who has a

682
00:35:15,880 --> 00:35:18,520
Speaker 6: story to tell you. You want friends, and you feel marginalized.

683
00:35:18,560 --> 00:35:20,480
Speaker 6: So you go to the bar and they say, look,

684
00:35:20,560 --> 00:35:24,800
Speaker 6: all these elitists are trying to erect this new cat park. However,

685
00:35:25,080 --> 00:35:27,520
Speaker 6: there are no cats in the city, and so it

686
00:35:27,560 --> 00:35:29,799
Speaker 6: turns into a big conspiracy and it's called cat Park.

687
00:35:29,920 --> 00:35:32,520
Speaker 6: Is it's supposed to be fun. But then this whole

688
00:35:32,560 --> 00:35:34,960
Speaker 6: conspiracy website now says that he's going to try to

689
00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:37,840
Speaker 6: convince you that this is a game about cats. However,

690
00:35:38,320 --> 00:35:41,160
Speaker 6: really it's an attempt to brainwash you and so on

691
00:35:41,280 --> 00:35:43,640
Speaker 6: and the cats and their symbols about the cats, and

692
00:35:43,760 --> 00:35:46,560
Speaker 6: it's a classic symbol that was used in so and

693
00:35:46,560 --> 00:35:48,799
Speaker 6: so history. And there's all these hidden messages in the

694
00:35:48,840 --> 00:35:51,520
Speaker 6: game that haven't linked it yet to satanic pedofiles. But

695
00:35:51,520 --> 00:35:53,319
Speaker 6: I'm sure give it time. It just.

696
00:35:55,280 --> 00:35:57,240
Speaker 4: And I think it's important to say that really smart

697
00:35:57,280 --> 00:35:59,319
Speaker 4: people can fall into this. So I would just like

698
00:35:59,680 --> 00:36:03,279
Speaker 4: to throw in that, Sir Isaac Newton, arguably one of

699
00:36:03,320 --> 00:36:07,600
Speaker 4: the most brilliant people ever on this planet, invented physics,

700
00:36:07,640 --> 00:36:11,880
Speaker 4: invented optics. The other thing is he spent years reading

701
00:36:11,920 --> 00:36:15,719
Speaker 4: the Bible to find hidden messages in it, and at

702
00:36:15,719 --> 00:36:18,359
Speaker 4: the end he determined that the world was going to

703
00:36:18,480 --> 00:36:21,480
Speaker 4: end in the year two thousand and sixty. Right, he

704
00:36:21,560 --> 00:36:23,560
Speaker 4: came up with this figure. So even one of the

705
00:36:23,560 --> 00:36:26,040
Speaker 4: most brilliant people in the world might be true. We

706
00:36:26,080 --> 00:36:28,880
Speaker 4: still got a few years. But yeah, it's not people

707
00:36:28,880 --> 00:36:29,640
Speaker 4: who are dumb.

708
00:36:29,840 --> 00:36:33,080
Speaker 3: So Sendra, is there anything you're learning of the best

709
00:36:33,360 --> 00:36:36,880
Speaker 3: practices of trying to get people to slowly pull themselves

710
00:36:36,880 --> 00:36:37,759
Speaker 3: out of the rabbit hole?

711
00:36:37,960 --> 00:36:38,160
Speaker 2: Yeah?

712
00:36:38,160 --> 00:36:40,080
Speaker 6: I think there's a few lessons. And in the book,

713
00:36:40,320 --> 00:36:44,040
Speaker 6: I interviewed people who were former conspiracy theorists and extremists

714
00:36:44,040 --> 00:36:46,000
Speaker 6: and people are part of cults and so on, and

715
00:36:46,160 --> 00:36:49,200
Speaker 6: often the story that I would get is that there

716
00:36:49,200 --> 00:36:52,680
Speaker 6: were some inflection, you know, there was some point at

717
00:36:52,719 --> 00:36:56,080
Speaker 6: which there was a counter narrative that was convincing enough

718
00:36:56,120 --> 00:36:59,080
Speaker 6: for them to take a small step outside of their

719
00:36:59,160 --> 00:37:02,320
Speaker 6: regular circle and start digging. And I think Brent Lee's

720
00:37:02,320 --> 00:37:05,439
Speaker 6: story is not altogether this similar, but it was that

721
00:37:05,560 --> 00:37:08,759
Speaker 6: the theories started getting more and more implausible to the

722
00:37:08,760 --> 00:37:11,960
Speaker 6: point where they started questioning you, is this real? You

723
00:37:11,960 --> 00:37:14,000
Speaker 6: know how plausible is This is starting to sound a

724
00:37:14,040 --> 00:37:17,719
Speaker 6: little too kooky, which led them to spend less time online.

725
00:37:18,040 --> 00:37:20,160
Speaker 6: And I think these things are key. So we're doing

726
00:37:20,680 --> 00:37:23,480
Speaker 6: big experiments at the moment trying to get people to

727
00:37:23,640 --> 00:37:28,239
Speaker 6: unfollow polarizing accounts, deactivate social media for a while, and

728
00:37:28,280 --> 00:37:30,799
Speaker 6: we find that has a huge impact on people in

729
00:37:30,920 --> 00:37:35,080
Speaker 6: terms of their information consumption, the information environment that surrounds them.

730
00:37:35,200 --> 00:37:38,879
Speaker 6: People spread less misinformation, they feel less polarized. And so

731
00:37:39,040 --> 00:37:41,799
Speaker 6: the challenge with getting people out is that you have

732
00:37:41,880 --> 00:37:45,520
Speaker 6: to provide a new network for people. Right, they're used

733
00:37:45,640 --> 00:37:48,520
Speaker 6: to having the crowd that they affiliate with, but you

734
00:37:48,600 --> 00:37:50,600
Speaker 6: got to have other people that you can turn to. Right,

735
00:37:50,640 --> 00:37:52,600
Speaker 6: You've got to have other narratives, and you need to

736
00:37:52,600 --> 00:37:55,480
Speaker 6: have a new support system. And so the first step

737
00:37:55,520 --> 00:37:58,279
Speaker 6: is to get people engaged with counter content and then

738
00:37:58,360 --> 00:38:01,520
Speaker 6: give them a new support system. Brent was courageous because

739
00:38:01,640 --> 00:38:03,960
Speaker 6: he just logged off and lost all of his friends.

740
00:38:04,160 --> 00:38:07,600
Speaker 6: And that's why most conspiracy theorists don't turn out like Brent,

741
00:38:07,760 --> 00:38:10,440
Speaker 6: because nobody wants to lose their friends. And it's difficult,

742
00:38:10,640 --> 00:38:12,319
Speaker 6: and you have to find your way out on your own.

743
00:38:12,360 --> 00:38:13,840
Speaker 6: So I think it was really brave of him to

744
00:38:13,920 --> 00:38:17,160
Speaker 6: do that and persist. So you can't persuade people coming

745
00:38:17,200 --> 00:38:19,560
Speaker 6: in saying you're wrong, these are the facts. This is

746
00:38:19,560 --> 00:38:22,000
Speaker 6: what most people do, and it just doesn't work. You

747
00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:24,200
Speaker 6: have to have a more indirect approach. I always start

748
00:38:24,200 --> 00:38:27,360
Speaker 6: with what we called worldview validation, which is a technique

749
00:38:27,400 --> 00:38:30,080
Speaker 6: that says, look, some conspiracies have really happened in the past,

750
00:38:30,400 --> 00:38:32,400
Speaker 6: and now they feel like you're validating part of what

751
00:38:32,440 --> 00:38:34,880
Speaker 6: they're saying. And then you pivot and say, look, but

752
00:38:34,960 --> 00:38:38,160
Speaker 6: the specific one that we're talking about, let's agree to disagree.

753
00:38:38,280 --> 00:38:40,360
Speaker 6: But you have to get people inched them away a

754
00:38:40,400 --> 00:38:43,279
Speaker 6: little bit from the story, right, Oh, okay, Okay, I

755
00:38:43,320 --> 00:38:46,279
Speaker 6: still think on this particular issue, Okay, but would you

756
00:38:46,320 --> 00:38:49,040
Speaker 6: read this other article, not saying you have to believe it,

757
00:38:49,120 --> 00:38:51,680
Speaker 6: just read it, right, and then we'll go, okay, let's

758
00:38:52,160 --> 00:38:54,120
Speaker 6: read it, and then we meet somewhere in the middle,

759
00:38:54,120 --> 00:38:55,680
Speaker 6: and then you leave it at that. And I think

760
00:38:55,719 --> 00:38:58,000
Speaker 6: for most people that stuff, they would have convinced someone

761
00:38:58,560 --> 00:39:01,120
Speaker 6: right they're cranky uncle or family member, and I leave

762
00:39:01,160 --> 00:39:03,319
Speaker 6: it at that. The next interaction we move a little

763
00:39:03,360 --> 00:39:06,600
Speaker 6: bit and you invite people come over to my party

764
00:39:06,640 --> 00:39:09,400
Speaker 6: where there's a different narrative happening, meeting different people, and

765
00:39:09,440 --> 00:39:10,840
Speaker 6: you have to do that over and over. It's a

766
00:39:10,880 --> 00:39:13,360
Speaker 6: huge investment, it takes a lot of time, but I

767
00:39:13,400 --> 00:39:15,640
Speaker 6: think that's where the evidence is in terms of the

768
00:39:15,719 --> 00:39:19,520
Speaker 6: de radicalization strategy. And then Cas Sunstein as a technique

769
00:39:19,640 --> 00:39:22,879
Speaker 6: calls cognitive infiltration, which I don't think I could get

770
00:39:22,920 --> 00:39:26,040
Speaker 6: through our ethics committee at the university, but basically, KI

771
00:39:26,719 --> 00:39:29,160
Speaker 6: maybe a method you guys are familiar with, but cognitive

772
00:39:29,200 --> 00:39:33,360
Speaker 6: infiltration is basically you pose as a fellow conspiracy theorist,

773
00:39:33,440 --> 00:39:36,520
Speaker 6: you join their group, and you do subversion from within that.

774
00:39:36,560 --> 00:39:39,400
Speaker 6: You start to try to sort of unravel the narrative

775
00:39:39,480 --> 00:39:43,040
Speaker 6: and start asking questions and getting people skeptical. And you

776
00:39:43,040 --> 00:39:46,040
Speaker 6: can do that at online chat rooms for example, quite easily.

777
00:39:46,360 --> 00:39:49,239
Speaker 6: Conspiracy theories hate being manipulated. They don't want to be

778
00:39:49,280 --> 00:39:51,360
Speaker 6: part of the sheeple. So giving them the idea that

779
00:39:51,440 --> 00:39:53,000
Speaker 6: maybe they're part of a pyramid scheme, all of the

780
00:39:53,040 --> 00:39:54,560
Speaker 6: sudden is I don't want to be part of that,

781
00:39:54,840 --> 00:39:56,359
Speaker 6: and so that's what I try to do. I try

782
00:39:56,360 --> 00:40:00,000
Speaker 6: to uncover the manipulation techniques and not discuss specific facts

783
00:40:00,040 --> 00:40:02,239
Speaker 6: and then leave it at that, and then next time

784
00:40:02,280 --> 00:40:05,160
Speaker 6: maybe we can discuss and so on. And then the

785
00:40:05,200 --> 00:40:07,560
Speaker 6: suggestion that making money off of it Alex Jones sells

786
00:40:07,560 --> 00:40:10,320
Speaker 6: stuff on the show, right, You're contributing money to somebody,

787
00:40:10,400 --> 00:40:12,239
Speaker 6: and I really don't like that, and so that's one

788
00:40:12,239 --> 00:40:14,880
Speaker 6: way to introduce it. We call some friction, Santor.

789
00:40:14,920 --> 00:40:17,520
Speaker 2: That was actually wonderful. Really, thank you very much.

790
00:40:17,719 --> 00:40:19,440
Speaker 3: We're really happy to get a chance to talk to

791
00:40:19,480 --> 00:40:20,920
Speaker 3: you today, and I hope we are able to do

792
00:40:20,960 --> 00:40:21,359
Speaker 3: so again.

793
00:40:21,480 --> 00:40:24,040
Speaker 6: Yeah, my pleasure. And I'm sure people know this was

794
00:40:24,080 --> 00:40:25,520
Speaker 6: all planned and predetermined.

795
00:40:27,880 --> 00:40:29,120
Speaker 4: All stick to the plan.

796
00:40:29,280 --> 00:40:30,720
Speaker 2: I'm too lazy to be planned.

797
00:40:32,120 --> 00:40:34,839
Speaker 3: Now, let's speak with our producer Adam Davidson and try

798
00:40:34,840 --> 00:40:36,120
Speaker 3: to sort this all out together.

799
00:40:37,400 --> 00:40:40,080
Speaker 5: I actually read something the other day that the single

800
00:40:40,120 --> 00:40:46,000
Speaker 5: best intervention found so far is AI slowly methodically convincing

801
00:40:46,040 --> 00:40:48,839
Speaker 5: people to stop having a conspiracy theory. We should get

802
00:40:48,840 --> 00:40:51,960
Speaker 5: the researchers of that on, but this is a reminder

803
00:40:52,000 --> 00:40:55,600
Speaker 5: that joining a conspiracy it's not just accepting some facts.

804
00:40:55,719 --> 00:40:58,200
Speaker 5: It's an entire way of life. It's a community. I

805
00:40:58,200 --> 00:41:01,400
Speaker 5: don't know, do you emerge hopeful podcasts like ours or

806
00:41:01,440 --> 00:41:04,520
Speaker 5: other things could break the hold or is it just

807
00:41:04,560 --> 00:41:06,399
Speaker 5: too few, too little.

808
00:41:06,760 --> 00:41:09,200
Speaker 4: People teetering on the edge. I think shows like this

809
00:41:09,200 --> 00:41:11,040
Speaker 4: can actually help get him to think about it. But

810
00:41:11,680 --> 00:41:14,160
Speaker 4: once you're down there, no, we've all stayed around on

811
00:41:14,239 --> 00:41:17,320
Speaker 4: Thanksgiving with the crazy uncle or cousin who's in a

812
00:41:17,360 --> 00:41:20,279
Speaker 4: conspiracy theory. And even when he sits with people who

813
00:41:20,360 --> 00:41:23,239
Speaker 4: love him at an intervention talking about how this just

814
00:41:23,360 --> 00:41:27,960
Speaker 4: doesn't make sense, still doesn't work. It's about faith, not fax.

815
00:41:28,000 --> 00:41:30,120
Speaker 5: Faith and friends. That was what someone was pointing out

816
00:41:30,120 --> 00:41:31,960
Speaker 5: to me, that you go to a MAGA rally if

817
00:41:32,000 --> 00:41:35,120
Speaker 5: you're lonely and you suddenly have one hundred thousand best friends.

818
00:41:34,719 --> 00:41:36,920
Speaker 4: And I think that's huge, big deal.

819
00:41:37,040 --> 00:41:40,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, thank you for today's discussion and we will

820
00:41:40,080 --> 00:41:42,439
Speaker 3: see you next time on Mission Implausible.

821
00:41:47,640 --> 00:41:52,640
Speaker 8: Mission Implausible is produced by Adam Davidson, Jerry O'shay, John Cipher,

822
00:41:53,000 --> 00:41:54,320
Speaker 8: and Jonathan Sterner.

823
00:41:54,440 --> 00:41:56,800
Speaker 4: The associate producer is Rachel Harner.

824
00:41:57,040 --> 00:42:00,839
Speaker 8: Mission Implausible is a production of Honorable Mention and Abominable

825
00:42:00,880 --> 00:42:02,560
Speaker 8: Pictures for iHeartMedia.