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Speaker 1: When we talk about the illicit drug trade, it's often

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Speaker 1: cocaine or heroin, or these days fentanyl crossing borders to

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Speaker 1: be put on the streets. But there's another drug you

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Speaker 1: might never have heard of that's gaining ground in Europe

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Speaker 1: and the Middle East, and it's being closely watched by

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Speaker 1: the US too. It's called captigon. It's a highly addictive

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Speaker 1: stimulant that can trigger a boost in energy and a

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Speaker 1: sense of invincibility. Captigan isn't new, It's been in circulation

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Speaker 1: since the nineteen sixties. Gulf Arab states have been the

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Speaker 1: biggest market over the past two decades, but it's now

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Speaker 1: starting to spread to Europe and elsewhere.

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Speaker 2: We have new information tonight from US officials who say

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Speaker 2: there is a powerful amphetamine called captigon circulating throughout war

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Speaker 2: zones of the Middle East, and tonight we're told Jie

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Speaker 2: Hottest fighters are believed to be using it as a

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Speaker 2: goat pill on the battlefield.

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Speaker 1: So why are we talking about it now?

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Speaker 3: Syria has become a major producer of captigan over the

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Speaker 3: past years, sending ripple effects through the entire region.

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Speaker 1: The UK government estimates that today eighty percent of the

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Speaker 1: world's captagon is produced in Syria, and the trade is

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Speaker 1: worth about three times the combined totals of the Mexican

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Speaker 1: drug cartels. The US and its European allies say the

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Speaker 1: government of Bashar al Assad is widely distributing the drug.

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Speaker 1: They say he's using the billions of dollars in sales

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Speaker 1: as a financial lifeline to soften the blow of Western

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Speaker 1: economic sanctions.

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Speaker 4: The United States imposted its toughest sanctions ever on Syria

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Speaker 4: on Wednesday, aiming to choke off revenue for Syrian President

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Speaker 4: Bashar al Assad's government in an effort to force the

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Speaker 4: country back to un led negotiations and broker a deal

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Speaker 4: to end the country's nearly decade long war.

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Speaker 1: The US moved to punish Syria after Asad's deadly suppression

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Speaker 1: of a popular uprising in twenty eleven. Since then, the

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Speaker 1: regime has fought off rebels for control of the country

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Speaker 1: in a civil war that is killed hundreds of thousands

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Speaker 1: of people. Western officials say Asad is also trying to

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Speaker 1: use Captigan to pressure other nations to end serious isolation.

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Speaker 5: Syrian President basharho Asad is attending the Arab League summit

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Speaker 5: in Saudi Arabia for the first time since its country

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Speaker 5: was suspended from the organization in twenty eleven.

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Speaker 1: That's something the US opposes, but some other nations in

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Speaker 1: the region are at least considering.

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Speaker 6: This really was the low hanging fruit. For many of

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Speaker 6: these countries. This would be something that they could convince

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Speaker 6: the regime to make progress on and exchange for getting

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Speaker 6: and building momentum to get to the more difficult agenda items.

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Speaker 1: That's Caroline Rose. She's the director of the Captigan Trade

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Speaker 1: Project at the New Lines Institute. We'll hear more from

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Speaker 1: her a bit later. First, I want to talk to Bloomberg,

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Speaker 1: Sam Dagger in Dubai and samiad Garney in Paris. They've

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Speaker 1: been reporting on Captigan's rise as a street drug and

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Speaker 1: as ann unlikely political tool. I'm wes Kosova today on

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Speaker 1: the big take. How at decades old drug became an

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Speaker 1: international bargaining chip. Sammy right that Captagan is really spreading

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Speaker 1: through Europe. I think a lot of people outside of

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Speaker 1: the Europe have yet to even hear about Captigan exactly.

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Speaker 1: What is it.

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Speaker 7: It's an emfetamine type pill. It first appeared in the

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Speaker 7: nineteen sixties in Germany as an authorized pharmaceutical under the

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Speaker 7: trade name Captagon. Its main ingredient was fentolin and it

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Speaker 7: was prescribed for a range of conditions including attention deficit,

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Speaker 7: hyperactivity disorder, and narcolepsy. And then in the eighties, when

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Speaker 7: fenthln was outlawed, production moved to southern and Eastern Europe,

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Speaker 7: and then after the collapse of the Soviet Union, they

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Speaker 7: started to make it in On and Syria. I mean,

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Speaker 7: you could say the production of it as an illicit

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Speaker 7: drug kind of started in the eighties in eastern and

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Speaker 7: southern Europe and then moved to the Middle East, to

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Speaker 7: Lebanon and Syria.

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Speaker 1: And Sammy, you right that now this drug is being

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Speaker 1: distributed across Europe and beyond exactly who is using it.

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Speaker 8: A lot of people are using that drug workers in

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Speaker 8: the Middle East, the youth, also throughout Middle East countries,

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Speaker 8: especially Gulf countries. It's become a major concern in countries

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Speaker 8: like Saudi Arabia, and officials in European countries have noticed

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Speaker 8: that shipments to Europe have increased. There's been significant amount

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Speaker 8: of captagon seized in countries like Italy and France, and

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Speaker 8: by all accounts, it has become a major concern for officials.

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Speaker 1: Why are people taking this? There are a lot of

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Speaker 1: different kinds of illicit drugs. Why has this one gained

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Speaker 1: such wide years?

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Speaker 7: This is nothing new here in the Middle East. I

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Speaker 7: mean this has been going on for the past twenty years,

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Speaker 7: and mainly as Sammy said, I mean a lot of

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Speaker 7: young people view it as a party drug. I mean

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Speaker 7: it's cheap depending on the quality. I mean it's as

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Speaker 7: cheap as three dollars a pill to almost twenty five dollars,

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Speaker 7: So it's popular with like partygoers, with construction workers in

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Speaker 7: this part of the world who need to work double shifts.

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Speaker 7: So this drug has been coming into mainly the Gulf

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Speaker 7: States here for the past twenty years. But what changed

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Speaker 7: is in the past ten years when the war started

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Speaker 7: in Syria and sanctions were imposed on the Asad regime

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Speaker 7: and the regime and its ally in Lebanon, the Iran

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Speaker 7: backed militia has Bola ratcheted up productions significantly, so they

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Speaker 7: saw it as a revenue generator. And the main destination

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Speaker 7: of this drug has been Gulf States, particularly Saudi Arabia.

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Speaker 1: Is capdigan used with in Syria? We know it's exported,

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Speaker 1: but what about inside Syria?

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Speaker 8: Itself.

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Speaker 7: Yes, Captagon is used in Syria, particularly by fighters, I mean,

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Speaker 7: whether they're on the regime side, whether I mean there

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Speaker 7: are all sorts of groups fighting in Syria. Still, when

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Speaker 7: the Islamic State was in control of much of eastern

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Speaker 7: Syria and large parts of Iraq, its fighters were using

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Speaker 7: captagon as well.

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Speaker 8: While we were preparing the story, I had a chance

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Speaker 8: to chat with someone from France who had been paying

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Speaker 8: attention to kaptagon for a couple of years, and this

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Speaker 8: person said something quite interesting. Person said that people who

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Speaker 8: are using captagon, at least in France, are mostly living

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Speaker 8: in the countryside. So these are people who cannot afford

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Speaker 8: expensive drugs like cocaine, and they're not let's say, cool

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Speaker 8: enough to use marijuana or other cosmopolitan, more urban drugs

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Speaker 8: like ecstasy, for example, which are also more expensive, way

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Speaker 8: more expensive than captigon. You know, this is something that

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Speaker 8: really caught my attention. But this is something that may

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Speaker 8: the tracking even more difficult because it's not happening in

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Speaker 8: big cities. What's a matter of concern for officials is

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Speaker 8: the tendency numbers are pretty small at this stage. They've

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Speaker 8: noticed that there's a deliberate, a clear push from the

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Speaker 8: asset regime to increase flows of captagon to Europe. So

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Speaker 8: it is something that will likely become a much bigger

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Speaker 8: headache in the foreseeable fouture.

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Speaker 1: Sammy, what do we know about how much of this

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Speaker 1: drug is being exported into European countries and elsewhere and

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Speaker 1: how many people are using it?

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Speaker 8: There are no available data in Europe on how many

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Speaker 8: people are using this. But we went from something that

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Speaker 8: didn't exist at all as early as four years ago,

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Speaker 8: five years ago to a major source of concern. So

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Speaker 8: while numbers are still relatively low, they are going up,

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Speaker 8: They're increasing.

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Speaker 1: How dependent is Syria on the money from this illicit

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Speaker 1: trade drugs?

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Speaker 7: Very dependent, I mean, particularly as I mentioned the armed

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Speaker 7: groups and the militias that are essential to the survival

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Speaker 7: of this regime. And researchers estimate anywhere from seven to

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Speaker 7: ten billion dollars generated over the past three years, and

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Speaker 7: this is based on the amounts seized all over the world.

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Speaker 1: Sam Syria's government has used captigan as a tool or

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Speaker 1: bargaining chip. What is Syria doing This is.

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Speaker 7: A revenue generator for the regime, yes, but the money

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Speaker 7: is not going into like serious treasury or to fund

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Speaker 7: the government. I mean, it's going to fund paramilitary units

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Speaker 7: and armed groups that are essential to the security of

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Speaker 7: the regime. Captagon is one of the many tools that

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Speaker 7: the regime is trying to use to put pressure on

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Speaker 7: Arab states like Saudi Arabia on the West to obtain

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Speaker 7: you know, sanctions, relieve reconstruction, money, diplomatic recognition. He's also

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Speaker 7: using the issue of refugees and refugee returns. So Captagon

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Speaker 7: kind of falls into the many tools that the regime

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Speaker 7: is using in order to extract concessions from the West

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Speaker 7: and from you know, regional players like Saudi Arabia and others.

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Speaker 1: What does as i'd say about the Captain guide trade?

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Speaker 1: Does he acknowledged that the country is pushing this drug.

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Speaker 7: In a recent interview, he denied involvement, but he said yes,

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Speaker 7: he acknowledged that it is a problem that it is

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Speaker 7: being produced and trafficked out of Syria and Lebanon. And

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Speaker 7: he said, basically this is what you get when you

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Speaker 7: have chaos in war. But he put the blame on

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Speaker 7: the West. He said, you came in and you supported

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Speaker 7: groups that try to topple me, and he says I

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Speaker 7: can help you solve this problem. It isn't my interest

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Speaker 7: to solve this problem, this is what he claims. But

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Speaker 7: in return for that help, I need you to do

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Speaker 7: certain things, including lift sanctions because I mean these sanctions

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Speaker 7: are crippling and sweeping. Also that you have to give

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Speaker 7: me money to rebuild Syria, to put people back to work,

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Speaker 7: to make sure that people have other sources of revenue,

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Speaker 7: and on and on, And this is how he goes

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Speaker 7: about it.

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Speaker 8: Maybe the difference between what they say publicly and what

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Speaker 8: they don't say publicly is how much tides their hands are.

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Speaker 8: I've heard from golf officials who have been in direct

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Speaker 8: contact with the Syrians, and then they say that behind

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Speaker 8: closed doors, the Syrians make very clear that they could

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Speaker 8: easily stop it.

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Speaker 1: After the break. Our Western leaders considering concessions to Syria

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Speaker 1: to reduce the flow of captagan Sammy. Is anyone suggesting

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Speaker 1: that Syria should be granted some concession so they'll cut

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Speaker 1: down on this trade.

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Speaker 8: Yes, big time. Yes, this is what some golf countries

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Speaker 8: have been advocating. This is what they're asking their European

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Speaker 8: country partents, especially the Americans, because maybe the biggest concern

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Speaker 8: for the Serians is sanctions, especially US sanctions US unilateral sanctions.

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Speaker 8: Officials from Golf states have been lobbying European countries to

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Speaker 8: make concessions. They say the Europeans should embrace reality and

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Speaker 8: should recognize the fact on the ground. The reality on

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Speaker 8: the ground is that Bashar has won the war. He's

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Speaker 8: not going anywhere, So you have no choice. It's either

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Speaker 8: you deal with the guy who you don't like, but

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Speaker 8: you know, this is the only way you can solve

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Speaker 8: that kind of problem, including terrorism and captagon, or you know,

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Speaker 8: you pretend that you will stick to your policy, which

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Speaker 8: is leading nowhere. You know. An interesting aspect of that

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Speaker 8: conversation is that the Europeans are divided. They don't have

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Speaker 8: necessarily the same views. A country like Italy would be

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Speaker 8: keen on somehow it's policy, but they understand that it

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Speaker 8: could be more constructive to try and build bridges, to

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Speaker 8: try to find some common ground on a variety of issues,

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Speaker 8: especially when it comes to refugees or keptical because obviously

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Speaker 8: Italy is closer to the eastern part of euro so

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Speaker 8: they're geographically closer to the problem. On the other hand,

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Speaker 8: you have the hardliners like Germany or France, especially France.

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Speaker 8: Macron made very clear that France's line on Syria will

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Speaker 8: not going to change. So zero code like zero recognition

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Speaker 8: and zero concession. I think one of the reasons that

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Speaker 8: helped explain, you know, the reluctance of countries like France

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Speaker 8: and Germany is that they basically said that these efforts

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Speaker 8: to somehow moderate these authoritarian leaders never works, just a

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Speaker 8: waste of time and energy. And they often cite as

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Speaker 8: an example Bashar himself, you know, not so long ago

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Speaker 8: in two thousand and eight, if I'm not mistaken, but

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Speaker 8: Shark to Paris. You know, back then France was trying

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Speaker 8: to extend another branch to Syria. So Bashark came to

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Speaker 8: Paris a very nice visit. They red carpet him, and

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Speaker 8: then they did the same with Walmar Kadaffi from Libya,

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Speaker 8: and all they got was more repression, violence, human rights violations.

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Speaker 8: And so the conclusion is that it never works.

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Speaker 1: What has the US response been to these ideas of

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Speaker 1: giving into some of Asad's demands.

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Speaker 8: The US have made very clear that they're not willing

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Speaker 8: to make any concession to the Asad regime, and I

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Speaker 8: think sanctions that have been approved in the US make

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Speaker 8: that very clear. There is no room for any sort

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Speaker 8: of concession.

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Speaker 7: Earlier this year, when the Arab States were discussing readmitting

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Speaker 7: Seria to the Arab League, the US was telling them, fine,

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Speaker 7: but you have to get something in return. I mean,

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Speaker 7: you have to get prisoner releases, a real engagement by

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Speaker 7: the regime in the UN led efforts to end the

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Speaker 7: conflict and to launch a credible political process. We have

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Speaker 7: to see concrete moves by the regime. So the US

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Speaker 7: was always telling the Arab States, you can normalize ties

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Speaker 7: with him, you can bring him back to the Arab League,

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Speaker 7: but you have to get something out of him first.

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Speaker 1: Sammy, Given how complicated this is, where do you see

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Speaker 1: it going from here?

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Speaker 8: It's very difficult to tell. I don't see Europe changing

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Speaker 8: its stance in the foreseeable future. I'm not sure Arab

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Speaker 8: and Gulf country will take any benefits from reintegrating asad

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Speaker 8: to the Arab League. He's not really addressing the Capta

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Speaker 8: gun flows. And even when it comes to the economy

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Speaker 8: to business perspective, this is a country in ruins. Know

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Speaker 8: this has been completely destroyed by war. The economy has

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Speaker 8: collapsed to the Syrian currency is the way, there's a

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Speaker 8: fraction of what it was until a few years ago.

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Speaker 8: So even when it comes to investment, how can you

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Speaker 8: possibly invest in a country that is under such heavy sanctions.

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Speaker 8: So this is also you know, part of the conversations

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Speaker 8: that countries like the UAE and Saudi Arabia that do

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Speaker 8: have a lot of cash, that have big funds that

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Speaker 8: could potentially be used to invest in Syria, but it's

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Speaker 8: just not going to happen. How can you invest in

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Speaker 8: a country where you know, sanctions are so so harsh.

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Speaker 1: So what tools, if any, do other nations have to

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Speaker 1: stop or reduce the flow of captagon before it becomes

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Speaker 1: out of control.

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Speaker 8: I think if Iran switched its position. I think if

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Speaker 8: Iran decided to take a less soft stence on Syria,

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Speaker 8: that they could be change because Iran has been not

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Speaker 8: only a political supporter or a political backer of ASAB,

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Speaker 8: but also a key support when it comes to, you know,

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Speaker 8: the security apparatus. And also maybe Russia. Russia is still

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Speaker 8: a key factor in any conversation involving Syria. But at

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Speaker 8: this point it's very hard to see any reason why

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Speaker 8: Syria would change its course. There's a real risk of

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Speaker 8: seeing a Narco state so close to Europe.

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Speaker 7: From the point of view of the Syrian opposition, they're

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Speaker 7: pleading their case with the West and Arab states the

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Speaker 7: following way. They're telling them, you're not going to get

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Speaker 7: anything out of this regime. The only solution is to

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Speaker 7: help us affect change in Syria. I mean, they're not

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Speaker 7: saying launch a military operation to topple us out, but

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Speaker 7: somehow help us launch a credible political process that would

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Speaker 7: change the system in Syria, bringing a new form of

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Speaker 7: governance in Syria, and eventually ease Assad out.

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Speaker 1: Sam Sammy, thanks so much for coming on the show.

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Speaker 8: Thank you, Thank you.

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Speaker 1: When we come back, what are the US and its

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Speaker 1: allies doing to halt the Captigan trade. We've talked about

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Speaker 1: what the illicit Captagan trade means for Gulf countries and Europe.

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Speaker 1: Let's not take a closer look at what the US

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Speaker 1: is doing about it. Caroline Rose is the director of

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Speaker 1: the Captigan Trade Project at the New Lines Institute, that's

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Speaker 1: a think tank here in Washington. Caroline, Captagan is obviously

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Speaker 1: a top concern in Europe and other parts of the world,

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Speaker 1: but it hasn't quite reached the US yet. How concerned

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Speaker 1: are policy makers lawmakers about it eventually crossing the ocean

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Speaker 1: and coming to the US.

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Speaker 6: I think that we're a long time out from seeing

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Speaker 6: Captagon hit US markets. I don't think it's quite yet

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Speaker 6: something that would be competitive. That being said, I think

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Speaker 6: that recently we've started to see a huge uptick and

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Speaker 6: concern over Captigon reaching European markets as well as markets

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Speaker 6: in Africa, and over the last year or so we've

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Speaker 6: started to see some pretty clear signals that Captigon is

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Speaker 6: beginning to carve out not only transit routes but potential

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Speaker 6: consumption markets in these areas. For example, this past July

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Speaker 6: we not only found a warehouse in Bavaria in Germany,

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Speaker 6: but also a laboratory, which shows that these networks are

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Speaker 6: starting to dig their heels in and really settle and

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Speaker 6: create embedded networks in the European continent.

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Speaker 1: How much of the effort to stop Captagon is about

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Speaker 1: other nations relationships with Syria and with Asad.

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Speaker 6: Ever, since the Syrian Civil War broke out and the

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Speaker 6: Ystad regime imposed atrocious crimes against humanity against their own citizens,

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Speaker 6: Syria for the large part has been iced out, pushed

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Speaker 6: out of the diplomatic Forum, and because of that it

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Speaker 6: has not been able to participate in the Arab League

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Speaker 6: if with many countries it's not allowed to have an

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Speaker 6: embassy in their capital city, and many countries don't even

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Speaker 6: engage in high level phone calls with officials. Most recently

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Speaker 6: there's also been sanctions on suspected traffickers of the captaicone

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Speaker 6: trade as well, which has also had quite an economic

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Speaker 6: impact in the country. But recently, after a very devastating

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Speaker 6: earthquake in southern Turkey in northern Syria, a lot of

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Speaker 6: countries that were toying and experimenting with the idea of

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Speaker 6: normalization have sought kind of this window of opportunity and

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Speaker 6: have started to race to achieve normalization with the Syria

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Speaker 6: in regime. Really, the definition of what normalization would look

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Speaker 6: like would be the resumption of diplomatic ties. During these

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Speaker 6: normalization discussions we saw in the spring there was a

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Speaker 6: surge in bilateral calls and meetings and discussions about bringing

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Speaker 6: Syria back into the Arab League, and Captigon was one

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Speaker 6: of the most prominent discussion items. Why I think there

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Speaker 6: is a genuine wish and a genuine aim and objective

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Speaker 6: to improve counter narcotic capabilities, but ultimately this really was

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Speaker 6: the low hanging fruit for many of these countries in

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Speaker 6: order to even tackle these more sensitive and more difficult

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Speaker 6: agenda items such as the patriation and a political settlement.

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Speaker 6: They believe that captigone a trade that not many people

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Speaker 6: know about, a trade where they perceived the regime as

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Speaker 6: having leverage and agency over this would be something that

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Speaker 6: they could convince the regime to make progress on and

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Speaker 6: exchange for getting an building momentum to get to the

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Speaker 6: more difficult agenda items. How that's worked out, I don't

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Speaker 6: think it's necessarily played out the way that regional countries

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Speaker 6: have helped for especially this past May. In this past April,

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Speaker 6: we're still seeing captagon seized regularly along the Jordanian and

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Speaker 6: Syrian border. In Saudi Arabia, they're continuing seizures, especially of

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Speaker 6: shipments that seem and appear to be coming from Syria

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Speaker 6: or Lebanon. So this has really in no way been

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Speaker 6: able to stem the flow of captagon. And while the

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Speaker 6: Syrian regime has been able to seize a few things

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Speaker 6: here and there as kind of this confidence building measure,

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Speaker 6: really the flow of the trade has not significantly been reduced.

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Speaker 1: What kind of pressure, if any, is the US bringing

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Speaker 1: to bear when it comes to Captigon itself.

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Speaker 6: So this past March, the US Department of State and

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Speaker 6: Department of Treasury they impose joint sanctions with the UK's

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Speaker 6: Foreign Commonwealth and Development Office the FCDO.

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Speaker 5: Today, the United States took action and coordination with the

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Speaker 5: United Kingdom to designate key individuals supporting the regime of

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Speaker 5: Syrian President Bashar al Asad and the production or export

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Speaker 5: in Syria and Lebanon of a dangerous amphetamine type stimulant

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Speaker 5: known as Captagon.

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Speaker 6: And they announced those sanctions on March twenty eighth.

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Speaker 8: It was a.

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Speaker 6: Series of sanctions on individuals as well as some commercial

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Speaker 6: entities that were highly suspected of involvement in the kaptagon trade,

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Speaker 6: whether production or trafficking. The EU followed very shortly after

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Speaker 6: in April and also impose their own sanctions as well.

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Speaker 6: And what this does effectively imposes kind of this travel band,

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Speaker 6: so a lot of these individuals will never be really

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Speaker 6: allowed to travel to the EU, to the United States,

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Speaker 6: the UK. It also of course imposes a freeze on

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Speaker 6: their assets and really does try and make it very

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Speaker 6: difficult for any company that has relations with these three

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Speaker 6: governments to do commercial business with these individuals and these

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Speaker 6: commercial entities.

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Speaker 1: Has that had any real world effect as you describe it,

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Speaker 1: at the Captigan flows seems to be going on unabated.

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Speaker 6: They certainly do have an effect in the sense of

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Speaker 6: they have imposed a degree of accountability on these actors.

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Speaker 6: It shows to the Syrian government and it demonstrates to

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Speaker 6: the region that the United States, the UK, and the

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Speaker 6: EU are quite serious and are closely monitoring this issue,

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Speaker 6: which a few years ago, really I don't necessarily think

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Speaker 6: that we could have said that Kapta Gond still is

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Speaker 6: a niche issue. But back in twenty eighteen twenty seventeen,

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Speaker 6: when we started to see a huge uptick in the trade,

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Speaker 6: the United States didn't quite have a strategy on that.

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Speaker 1: Another thing we saw last year was the US Congress

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Speaker 1: passed the Captigon Act. Can you tell us what that

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Speaker 1: is in Is it a serious piece of legislation or

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Speaker 1: is it just more like a signaling device.

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Speaker 6: So I think that the Captagon Act, which was an

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Speaker 6: amendment to the National Defense Authorization Act, really did have

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Speaker 6: a lot of teeth and concrete measures in the sense

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Speaker 6: that it required the United States government to have an

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Speaker 6: interagency strategy specifically about Captigon related to Syria, of course,

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Speaker 6: and you know, the Syria team over at State Department

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Speaker 6: had a lot of agency over this, but it required

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Speaker 6: an interagency conversation regularly between the United States Department of State, Treasury,

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Speaker 6: Department of Defense, and intelligence agencies to share what they

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Speaker 6: know and to try and get as much information as

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Speaker 6: possible to start monitoring seriously the Captagon trade as it

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Speaker 6: relates to Syria, but also as it relates to the

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Speaker 6: region and to the security of its partners. We saw

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Speaker 6: the US State Department release that report and release that

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Speaker 6: strategy this past June, essentially communicating what they've been able

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Speaker 6: to do, what they've been up to in terms of

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Speaker 6: improving counter and narcotics in addiction capacity, but also of

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Speaker 6: course coordinating with partners, keeping pressure against the Syrian regime

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Speaker 6: and against of course the greater tide of normalization. And

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Speaker 6: so you know, really I think that there's a lot

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Speaker 6: more momentum with the strategy, and we're starting to see

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Speaker 6: that as you know, these discussions over Captigon evolve, and.

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Speaker 1: Are we seeing bipartisan support for this issue.

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Speaker 6: Yes, So I believe that you know, back when six

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Speaker 6: five four to two the amendment was passed that was

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Speaker 6: sponsored by both french Hill, who is a Republican in

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Speaker 6: the House of Representatives, but also Brendan Boyle.

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Speaker 3: My friends, this is why this bill is so critical

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Speaker 3: and important at this time. We need an all of

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Speaker 3: government approach to addressing Assad's regime of drug production and trafficking.

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Speaker 3: Captagon has already reached Europe and it's only a matter

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Speaker 3: of time before it reaches our shores.

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Speaker 6: And recently there is a new piece of Captigon related

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Speaker 6: legislation that was proposed again by french Hill, Republican, but

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Speaker 6: then also by Democratic Representative Jared Moskowitz.

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Speaker 1: Caroline, where do you think things head from here? It

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Speaker 1: seems like a bit of an intractable problem.

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Speaker 6: It's going to be very difficult to completely quelsh the

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Speaker 6: Captagon trade. I think it's also extremely important that we

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Speaker 6: don't evolve into a whackable strategy of trying to go

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Speaker 6: after directly only the kingpins without looking at the production process,

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Speaker 6: or the precursors or even the demand side of the

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Speaker 6: Captagon challenge. So I think it's going to have to

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Speaker 6: involve a very comprehensive approach from the United States and

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Speaker 6: its partners as well as regional countries. When looking at

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Speaker 6: this problem set, the captagon trade is going to expands

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Speaker 6: most certainly geographically into Europe to Africa as well, particularly

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Speaker 6: Sub Saharan Africa and Northern Africa, where we're already starting

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Speaker 6: to see storage facilities and low level demand. And that

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Speaker 6: is going to be a greater challenge and a challenge

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Speaker 6: that goes beyond the issue of Syria, but rather it's

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Speaker 6: going to be kind of a trans regional illicit economy

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Speaker 6: that will pose both security challenges but also of course

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Speaker 6: long term health challenges.

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Speaker 1: Caroline, thanks so much for speaking with me.

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Speaker 6: Thank you so much.

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Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to us here at The Big Take.

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Speaker 1: It's a daily podcast from Bloomberg and iHeartRadio. For more

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Speaker 1: shows from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or

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Speaker 1: wherever you listen, and we'd love to hear from you.

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00:27:49,359 --> 00:27:52,680
Speaker 1: Email us questions or comments dot Big Take at Bloomberg

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Speaker 1: dot net. The supervising producer of The Big Take is

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00:27:56,320 --> 00:28:01,160
Speaker 1: Vicky Ergolina. Our senior producer is Catherine Fink. Federica Romanello

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Speaker 1: is our producer. Our associate producer is zenob Sidiki Raphael

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Speaker 1: mcili is our engineer. Our original music was composed by

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Speaker 1: Leo Sidrin. I'm West Kosova. We'll be back on Monday

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Speaker 1: with another big take. Have a great weekend.