1 00:00:04,760 --> 00:00:06,800 Speaker 1: Okay, stop me if you've heard this one. What do 2 00:00:06,840 --> 00:00:09,000 Speaker 1: you get when the former head of the KGB and 3 00:00:09,039 --> 00:00:12,480 Speaker 1: the former head of the CIA walk into a funeral. 4 00:00:12,920 --> 00:00:15,560 Speaker 2: Hi atop the Kremlin to night a Soviet flag at 5 00:00:15,600 --> 00:00:19,439 Speaker 2: half staff, a symbol of mourning for Leonide ilitch Reshnev. 6 00:00:19,880 --> 00:00:22,759 Speaker 2: Reshnev will be laid to rest in Red Square beside 7 00:00:22,800 --> 00:00:23,639 Speaker 2: the Kremlin wall. 8 00:00:24,600 --> 00:00:27,280 Speaker 3: They came to Red Square today to bete Reshnev, and 9 00:00:27,360 --> 00:00:32,040 Speaker 3: not particularly to praise him. So it is when dictators die. 10 00:00:32,360 --> 00:00:36,760 Speaker 1: Okay, so it's not actually a joke. It's nineteen eighty two, Moscow, 11 00:00:37,000 --> 00:00:41,040 Speaker 1: almost two years before able archer, former Soviet leader and 12 00:00:41,159 --> 00:00:44,720 Speaker 1: now dead corpse leon At Brezhnev is being carried in 13 00:00:44,760 --> 00:00:48,720 Speaker 1: an open coffin procession through Red Square and. 14 00:00:48,760 --> 00:00:52,640 Speaker 3: His companions and friends and rivals watched their last glimpse. 15 00:00:52,360 --> 00:00:55,600 Speaker 1: Software Heads of state from across the world flocked to 16 00:00:55,680 --> 00:00:58,440 Speaker 1: Moscow to attend the funeral. It was the ultimate Cold 17 00:00:58,440 --> 00:01:01,680 Speaker 1: War invitation. I mean, who's who of who might press 18 00:01:01,680 --> 00:01:04,720 Speaker 1: the button? Western leaders are there to pay their respects 19 00:01:04,760 --> 00:01:08,320 Speaker 1: to their longtime adversary leon At Brezhnev, but also there 20 00:01:08,480 --> 00:01:13,440 Speaker 1: to meet their new one, Yuri and drop off CenTra, 21 00:01:15,360 --> 00:01:19,399 Speaker 1: and drop Off delivers Brezhnev's eulogy, which is really more 22 00:01:19,400 --> 00:01:26,119 Speaker 1: of an unofficial inaugural address. And afterward and drop Off, 23 00:01:26,200 --> 00:01:28,720 Speaker 1: the former head of the KGB, takes a private meeting 24 00:01:28,800 --> 00:01:31,560 Speaker 1: with the former head of the CIA and now US 25 00:01:31,680 --> 00:01:34,480 Speaker 1: Vice President George Bush Senior. 26 00:01:36,440 --> 00:01:39,080 Speaker 4: And Andropov says some pretty extraordinary things. 27 00:01:39,520 --> 00:01:41,840 Speaker 1: This is Simon Miles, cold War historian. 28 00:01:42,440 --> 00:01:45,680 Speaker 4: He says to Bush, look, you and I both know 29 00:01:46,360 --> 00:01:51,760 Speaker 4: that we need to say things for public consumption in 30 00:01:51,800 --> 00:01:59,080 Speaker 4: our countries that we don't necessarily meet, primarily mean things 31 00:01:59,120 --> 00:01:59,919 Speaker 4: about one another. 32 00:02:00,920 --> 00:02:02,400 Speaker 1: Is this en coded language? 33 00:02:03,080 --> 00:02:05,880 Speaker 4: Says this explicitly, and then he goes on to say, 34 00:02:06,320 --> 00:02:10,040 Speaker 4: you know, we have the responsibility as leaders of the 35 00:02:10,080 --> 00:02:15,560 Speaker 4: two nuclear armed superpowers to understand the difference between when 36 00:02:15,600 --> 00:02:18,240 Speaker 4: I'm just saying nasty things about you because I've got 37 00:02:18,240 --> 00:02:22,640 Speaker 4: to because that's what you do it parades, and when 38 00:02:23,720 --> 00:02:26,680 Speaker 4: you are actually threatening me. 39 00:02:27,840 --> 00:02:30,600 Speaker 1: And drop Off is essentially saying, I know that Reagan 40 00:02:30,639 --> 00:02:32,560 Speaker 1: will talk shit about me, and you know that I 41 00:02:32,600 --> 00:02:35,480 Speaker 1: will talk shit about him, but we both need to 42 00:02:35,600 --> 00:02:38,720 Speaker 1: know that sometimes it's just for show. 43 00:02:42,040 --> 00:02:46,120 Speaker 4: Two leaders reminding one another about the nature of the 44 00:02:46,160 --> 00:02:49,000 Speaker 4: Cold War, that it is this kind of two level 45 00:02:49,080 --> 00:02:52,040 Speaker 4: game where you have your public consumption and then you 46 00:02:52,120 --> 00:02:53,080 Speaker 4: have your policy. 47 00:02:54,800 --> 00:02:57,519 Speaker 1: Does this mean that and drop Off knew the entire 48 00:02:57,600 --> 00:03:01,840 Speaker 1: time that Reagan's speeches were only speeches es Does it 49 00:03:01,919 --> 00:03:09,320 Speaker 1: mean the reaction to Able Archer was just theater. So 50 00:03:09,440 --> 00:03:12,200 Speaker 1: far this season, we've talked about how Reagan's tough guy 51 00:03:12,280 --> 00:03:15,480 Speaker 1: rhetoric pushed the Soviets to the brink, and the aggressive 52 00:03:15,520 --> 00:03:19,000 Speaker 1: impulses of an evil empire. How the Soviets became blinded 53 00:03:19,040 --> 00:03:21,800 Speaker 1: by their own paranoia and sent their spies looking for 54 00:03:21,919 --> 00:03:23,760 Speaker 1: signs of an impending attack. 55 00:03:23,720 --> 00:03:26,480 Speaker 5: And count the number of lights on in the Pentagon 56 00:03:26,480 --> 00:03:26,919 Speaker 5: at night. 57 00:03:27,160 --> 00:03:30,600 Speaker 1: How the US sent spyplanes to poke the Soviet bear. 58 00:03:30,680 --> 00:03:34,160 Speaker 4: Putting the fear of God like literally into the Soviets. 59 00:03:34,200 --> 00:03:37,400 Speaker 1: How the Soviets were so jumpy they shot down a 60 00:03:37,440 --> 00:03:38,480 Speaker 1: commercial plane. 61 00:03:39,000 --> 00:03:42,520 Speaker 2: I bought a Korean jumber jip that drifted into Soviet territory. 62 00:03:42,840 --> 00:03:46,440 Speaker 1: How the Soviets deployed a faulty missile detection system that 63 00:03:46,600 --> 00:03:48,440 Speaker 1: tested one man's resolve. 64 00:03:48,800 --> 00:03:51,240 Speaker 5: He said it was like sitting in a frying pan. 65 00:03:51,640 --> 00:03:55,040 Speaker 1: How the Soviets believed that an attack was actually happening 66 00:03:55,120 --> 00:03:58,560 Speaker 1: during Able Archer and so they put their nuclear arsenal 67 00:03:58,640 --> 00:03:59,720 Speaker 1: on a hair trigger. 68 00:04:00,160 --> 00:04:01,800 Speaker 5: US wasn't too much moment. 69 00:04:02,160 --> 00:04:05,680 Speaker 1: And after all that, how the CIA was convinced that 70 00:04:05,760 --> 00:04:10,920 Speaker 1: the whole snaffoo was really no big deal. It's just propaganda, 71 00:04:11,080 --> 00:04:15,280 Speaker 1: until one man, Lieutenant General Leonard Breudes, begged the intelligence 72 00:04:15,320 --> 00:04:19,000 Speaker 1: community to take Able Archer seriously. You might want to 73 00:04:19,040 --> 00:04:21,520 Speaker 1: look into this because it's too important not to. And 74 00:04:21,680 --> 00:04:24,920 Speaker 1: how finally, after decades of denial, the intelligence community had 75 00:04:24,960 --> 00:04:28,800 Speaker 1: come to believe that they had made grave errors and 76 00:04:28,800 --> 00:04:32,279 Speaker 1: that Able Archer truly was a nuclear near miss. 77 00:04:32,600 --> 00:04:35,240 Speaker 5: I think it was a serious matter. It deserves more 78 00:04:35,279 --> 00:04:36,640 Speaker 5: attention than it's received. 79 00:04:38,000 --> 00:04:41,760 Speaker 1: But what if that version of the story is all wrong? 80 00:04:42,480 --> 00:04:45,400 Speaker 1: What if the Able Archer war scare really was just 81 00:04:45,440 --> 00:04:50,040 Speaker 1: an act inside an act Rapp did an even bigger 82 00:04:50,080 --> 00:04:53,719 Speaker 1: act man if only Russia had some sort of nesting 83 00:04:53,880 --> 00:04:56,800 Speaker 1: folkloric toy that we could use as a metaphor here. 84 00:04:57,120 --> 00:05:00,920 Speaker 1: Oh well, so, once again, what do you get when 85 00:05:00,960 --> 00:05:02,880 Speaker 1: the former head of the KGB and the former head 86 00:05:02,880 --> 00:05:06,920 Speaker 1: of the CIA walk into a funeral? You get mine 87 00:05:07,080 --> 00:05:09,560 Speaker 1: games of a nuclear proportion? 88 00:05:11,520 --> 00:05:12,320 Speaker 4: Or do you. 89 00:05:15,279 --> 00:05:18,640 Speaker 1: I'm ed Helms and this is Snafu? A podcast about 90 00:05:18,640 --> 00:05:21,800 Speaker 1: history's greatest screw ups. On season one, we're telling you 91 00:05:21,880 --> 00:05:27,040 Speaker 1: the story of a snafu that is gigantic, absurd, and terrifying. 92 00:05:27,680 --> 00:05:30,840 Speaker 1: Able Archer eighty three, the nineteen eighty three NATO military 93 00:05:30,839 --> 00:05:35,880 Speaker 1: exercise that almost led to a real nuclear war? Or 94 00:05:36,600 --> 00:05:42,159 Speaker 1: did it? This episode, we're pulling apart the fabric of 95 00:05:42,160 --> 00:05:45,760 Speaker 1: the able Archer story and asking the question, what if 96 00:05:45,800 --> 00:05:47,920 Speaker 1: we've got this story all wrong. 97 00:05:52,320 --> 00:05:56,200 Speaker 4: I went looking for these documents not with a mind 98 00:05:56,360 --> 00:06:00,120 Speaker 4: to disproving the able Archer thesis, but rather just to 99 00:06:00,160 --> 00:06:03,080 Speaker 4: get even more insight on this amazing Cold War story. 100 00:06:03,400 --> 00:06:07,080 Speaker 1: It was twenty fourteen. Historian Simon Miles, a young researcher 101 00:06:07,120 --> 00:06:10,039 Speaker 1: with a nose for Cold War mysteries, caught a severe 102 00:06:10,120 --> 00:06:12,120 Speaker 1: case of the able Archer bug. 103 00:06:12,600 --> 00:06:16,280 Speaker 4: I was excited to try to find even more of 104 00:06:16,560 --> 00:06:20,320 Speaker 4: the picture on how we all almost perished. 105 00:06:20,839 --> 00:06:23,120 Speaker 1: His plan was to hit the archives in order to 106 00:06:23,160 --> 00:06:26,599 Speaker 1: figure out what the Soviets were actually thinking during Able 107 00:06:26,720 --> 00:06:31,440 Speaker 1: Archer KGB archives in Moscow were still locked down, but 108 00:06:31,560 --> 00:06:35,000 Speaker 1: Simon could look in the archives of former Soviet allies 109 00:06:35,160 --> 00:06:38,360 Speaker 1: where they had helped the Soviets with Operation Ryan. That 110 00:06:38,480 --> 00:06:41,560 Speaker 1: proverbial tic tac toe Board of Death used to gauge 111 00:06:41,560 --> 00:06:44,359 Speaker 1: whether the US was preparing for a nuclear attack. 112 00:06:45,160 --> 00:06:50,000 Speaker 4: In the archives of some of those former Allied states 113 00:06:50,600 --> 00:06:54,520 Speaker 4: who were participants in Project Rion, who were feeding information 114 00:06:54,600 --> 00:06:58,800 Speaker 4: into this thing, we actually have amazing insight into what's 115 00:06:58,839 --> 00:06:59,240 Speaker 4: going on. 116 00:07:00,120 --> 00:07:01,919 Speaker 1: The first leg of his journey takes him to the 117 00:07:01,960 --> 00:07:06,480 Speaker 1: Czech Republic, former Soviet state, czech Isslovakia, where he starts 118 00:07:06,480 --> 00:07:10,160 Speaker 1: to dig into the files of the STB, the Czechoslovakian 119 00:07:10,280 --> 00:07:11,600 Speaker 1: secret police. 120 00:07:11,400 --> 00:07:14,679 Speaker 4: In Prague, right by the river, in this pretty sort 121 00:07:14,680 --> 00:07:19,520 Speaker 4: of staid reading room. It's very sort of communist chic 122 00:07:19,920 --> 00:07:23,320 Speaker 4: because it was, you know, an official STV facility, so 123 00:07:23,400 --> 00:07:26,640 Speaker 4: it's a very sort of atmospheric place to work. 124 00:07:27,040 --> 00:07:31,840 Speaker 1: So Simon walks into the communist chic archive. Imagine his excitement, right, 125 00:07:32,040 --> 00:07:34,040 Speaker 1: He's going to pull back the iron curtain and find 126 00:07:34,080 --> 00:07:37,280 Speaker 1: all the frantic messages the Soviets were sending back and forth, 127 00:07:37,720 --> 00:07:39,840 Speaker 1: the flash telegrams and panicked alerts. 128 00:07:40,280 --> 00:07:43,320 Speaker 4: I remember it pretty well actually, because the archive staff, 129 00:07:43,400 --> 00:07:46,320 Speaker 4: who were all very very young, we're having a party, 130 00:07:46,360 --> 00:07:48,600 Speaker 4: and then kind of behind these doors you can hear 131 00:07:48,720 --> 00:07:50,560 Speaker 4: laughing and classes clinking. 132 00:07:51,760 --> 00:07:55,360 Speaker 1: Hey, archivists like to party too, right and check archivists. 133 00:07:55,360 --> 00:08:03,240 Speaker 1: Oh my god, don't get me started anyway, somehow, ignoring 134 00:08:03,280 --> 00:08:05,239 Speaker 1: the chance to attend the greatest party of his life, 135 00:08:05,480 --> 00:08:08,520 Speaker 1: Simon takes a seat at a big table and begins 136 00:08:08,560 --> 00:08:09,240 Speaker 1: to dig in. 137 00:08:11,600 --> 00:08:16,440 Speaker 4: And so I got my hands on a exercise report 138 00:08:17,040 --> 00:08:21,320 Speaker 4: on the entire Autumn Forge series of exercises. And you know, 139 00:08:21,360 --> 00:08:23,160 Speaker 4: when they give that to you, you think, oh, wow, 140 00:08:23,200 --> 00:08:26,640 Speaker 4: I mean, this is it. This is the document. Let's 141 00:08:26,640 --> 00:08:29,040 Speaker 4: see how close we all got to blowing ourselves up. 142 00:08:29,520 --> 00:08:31,880 Speaker 1: Simon opens the folder and begins scanning. 143 00:08:32,440 --> 00:08:36,280 Speaker 4: I am reading through this Booklet you know, it's got 144 00:08:36,320 --> 00:08:40,360 Speaker 4: these green kind of card paper covers, and you know, 145 00:08:40,400 --> 00:08:44,600 Speaker 4: things are tracking with what I knew about what had happened, 146 00:08:44,600 --> 00:08:47,000 Speaker 4: and in real granular detail, I should say. 147 00:08:47,280 --> 00:08:50,080 Speaker 1: It has the full accounting of Autumn Forge eighty three, 148 00:08:50,280 --> 00:08:53,600 Speaker 1: the nineteen thousand troops flying into West Germany under complete 149 00:08:53,679 --> 00:08:58,439 Speaker 1: radio silence, the massive rehearsal for war, all leading up 150 00:08:58,480 --> 00:08:59,480 Speaker 1: to the final act. 151 00:09:00,120 --> 00:09:03,120 Speaker 4: And then I get to the able Archer piece. And 152 00:09:03,200 --> 00:09:05,040 Speaker 4: the first thing that strikes me is how short it is. 153 00:09:08,679 --> 00:09:13,880 Speaker 4: So the conversation about able Archer is barely a page long. 154 00:09:14,400 --> 00:09:18,200 Speaker 4: When I'm thinking to myself, wow, this is really really weird. 155 00:09:18,720 --> 00:09:19,640 Speaker 5: Well, if this is. 156 00:09:19,600 --> 00:09:23,480 Speaker 4: A big deal, yeah, this should be we should have 157 00:09:23,520 --> 00:09:27,600 Speaker 4: a lot of the play by play here. Did these 158 00:09:27,600 --> 00:09:28,839 Speaker 4: guys miss it? 159 00:09:29,000 --> 00:09:31,439 Speaker 1: Spoiler alert? They did not miss it. 160 00:09:32,040 --> 00:09:35,439 Speaker 4: What it does not talk about is any sense that 161 00:09:35,480 --> 00:09:38,559 Speaker 4: there was heightened danger, that there was sort of something 162 00:09:39,000 --> 00:09:42,479 Speaker 4: more pernicious afoot behind what the NATO and the Americans 163 00:09:42,480 --> 00:09:47,800 Speaker 4: were doing. Rather, it traces, with a striking degree of accuracy, 164 00:09:48,040 --> 00:09:51,800 Speaker 4: exactly what was happening and why it was being done. 165 00:09:52,800 --> 00:09:58,040 Speaker 1: And that's it. That's it. No panic that Able Archer 166 00:09:58,120 --> 00:10:01,680 Speaker 1: was an insidious cover for a re nuclear attack, just 167 00:10:01,720 --> 00:10:05,120 Speaker 1: an accurate account of a routine NATO nuclear exercise, with 168 00:10:05,320 --> 00:10:08,800 Speaker 1: an apparent recognition that it was all simply an enormously 169 00:10:08,880 --> 00:10:14,920 Speaker 1: violent game of let's pretend. So what Simon discovered in 170 00:10:14,920 --> 00:10:18,280 Speaker 1: that archive wild Czech historians were next door sipping champagne 171 00:10:18,280 --> 00:10:22,280 Speaker 1: and making flirty remarks about Franz Kafka, was that, according 172 00:10:22,320 --> 00:10:25,920 Speaker 1: to the East, there was nothing unusual about Able Archer 173 00:10:25,960 --> 00:10:27,080 Speaker 1: eighty three at all. 174 00:10:32,360 --> 00:10:36,800 Speaker 4: And so that didn't sort of change my mind, but 175 00:10:36,920 --> 00:10:39,240 Speaker 4: it made me start asking some really hard questions. 176 00:10:39,720 --> 00:10:42,680 Speaker 1: It wasn't what Simon was expecting, but maybe the Czechs 177 00:10:42,720 --> 00:10:45,840 Speaker 1: were just out of the loop. Maybe the Russians were like, nah, 178 00:10:45,920 --> 00:10:48,000 Speaker 1: why bother filling them in? They never invite us to 179 00:10:48,040 --> 00:10:51,640 Speaker 1: their cool archive parties. But the East Germans, on the 180 00:10:51,679 --> 00:10:54,600 Speaker 1: other hand, they went together like Sonny and Cher, chocolate 181 00:10:54,679 --> 00:10:56,599 Speaker 1: and peanut butter. If the Soviets were scared of a 182 00:10:56,640 --> 00:11:00,200 Speaker 1: nuclear attack during Able Archer, the East Germans would know, Oh, 183 00:11:01,240 --> 00:11:04,520 Speaker 1: so Simon headed to Germany. 184 00:11:04,640 --> 00:11:07,760 Speaker 4: The East German military records are all in a beautiful 185 00:11:07,840 --> 00:11:11,400 Speaker 4: town in Baden Wurtenberg called Freiberg and Breisgau. They're in 186 00:11:11,440 --> 00:11:14,240 Speaker 4: a suburban area next to a kind of the German 187 00:11:14,240 --> 00:11:16,560 Speaker 4: equivalent of home depot, across the street from a brothel. 188 00:11:17,160 --> 00:11:21,680 Speaker 4: But it's a phenomenal place to work, naturally, And I 189 00:11:22,120 --> 00:11:25,640 Speaker 4: start looking through all of these materials, and here again 190 00:11:25,920 --> 00:11:30,320 Speaker 4: we have access to briefings and intelligence reports on what 191 00:11:30,480 --> 00:11:34,040 Speaker 4: is happening. And the most important one I think comes 192 00:11:34,160 --> 00:11:37,440 Speaker 4: to the desk of the East German Defense Minister, and 193 00:11:37,520 --> 00:11:41,080 Speaker 4: it is a report on the impending Able Archer exercise. 194 00:11:41,640 --> 00:11:44,920 Speaker 4: It also talks with pretty impressive accuracy about what is 195 00:11:44,960 --> 00:11:46,040 Speaker 4: going to happen. 196 00:11:46,360 --> 00:11:49,720 Speaker 1: And it actually says explicitly. 197 00:11:49,360 --> 00:11:54,079 Speaker 4: That none of this means that the West sort of 198 00:11:54,200 --> 00:11:58,280 Speaker 4: anticipates a heightened threat of war or anything like that. 199 00:11:58,760 --> 00:12:03,079 Speaker 4: The big messages able archer another phase of Autumn forge. 200 00:12:03,960 --> 00:12:06,280 Speaker 4: Really basically there's nothing to see here. 201 00:12:09,000 --> 00:12:13,319 Speaker 1: Simon begins to pour over transcripts of interviews with Soviet officials. 202 00:12:13,960 --> 00:12:17,880 Speaker 4: And what I'm reading from these people who would be 203 00:12:18,000 --> 00:12:21,160 Speaker 4: in the know by virtue of their positions, they're saying 204 00:12:21,160 --> 00:12:22,920 Speaker 4: that we're not at the brink from apocalypse. 205 00:12:23,679 --> 00:12:25,640 Speaker 1: So on the one hand, we have Leonard Brud's account 206 00:12:25,679 --> 00:12:29,000 Speaker 1: of the Soviet Air Force loading nuclear weapons onto planes 207 00:12:29,240 --> 00:12:33,120 Speaker 1: and standing by on high alert, and on the other hand, 208 00:12:33,559 --> 00:12:36,400 Speaker 1: the Soviet records show nothing. 209 00:12:37,120 --> 00:12:41,600 Speaker 4: It's very possible that US intelligence saw those signs. It's 210 00:12:41,720 --> 00:12:44,760 Speaker 4: very possible that leaders in the US intelligence community, the 211 00:12:44,840 --> 00:12:48,839 Speaker 4: US military, maybe even in the US political system drew 212 00:12:48,920 --> 00:12:50,040 Speaker 4: those conclusions. 213 00:12:50,679 --> 00:12:51,880 Speaker 1: But it's still. 214 00:12:51,640 --> 00:12:54,480 Speaker 4: Possible that they were all entirely wrong. 215 00:12:55,320 --> 00:13:00,280 Speaker 1: What so, no misinterpreted NATO messages, no nuclear near miss. 216 00:13:00,520 --> 00:13:05,000 Speaker 4: I think in order to make those claims, we really 217 00:13:05,040 --> 00:13:08,559 Speaker 4: need a strong piece of evidence from the Eastern Block, 218 00:13:08,600 --> 00:13:10,920 Speaker 4: from the other side of the Iron Curtain, and that 219 00:13:10,960 --> 00:13:15,560 Speaker 4: doesn't exist. So now I've kind of got a problem 220 00:13:15,559 --> 00:13:19,760 Speaker 4: on my hands. If you will, because we have this 221 00:13:20,280 --> 00:13:25,480 Speaker 4: universally almost accepted story about a near miss with nuclear war, 222 00:13:25,880 --> 00:13:29,079 Speaker 4: and I've got this body of evidence that's saying the opposite. 223 00:13:31,800 --> 00:13:34,280 Speaker 1: What the hell happened here? If the Soviets were as 224 00:13:34,360 --> 00:13:37,000 Speaker 1: terrified as we thought, with the nukes on planes and 225 00:13:37,000 --> 00:13:40,319 Speaker 1: the tic TAC toe board and the readiness to end 226 00:13:40,360 --> 00:13:43,120 Speaker 1: life on Earth, why was there no record of it 227 00:13:43,120 --> 00:13:46,240 Speaker 1: in Eastern documents? Simon decided to look at all the 228 00:13:46,280 --> 00:13:48,880 Speaker 1: evidence side by side and try to figure out where 229 00:13:48,920 --> 00:13:51,600 Speaker 1: this story, what he came to believe was a myth, 230 00:13:52,160 --> 00:13:53,040 Speaker 1: came from. 231 00:13:54,200 --> 00:13:58,120 Speaker 4: I was funneling down from what's commonly presented as sort 232 00:13:58,160 --> 00:14:02,000 Speaker 4: of this overwhelming body of evidence. Dozens and dozens and 233 00:14:02,080 --> 00:14:06,199 Speaker 4: dozens of sources are saying this, well, really, dozens and 234 00:14:06,240 --> 00:14:10,559 Speaker 4: dozens and dozens of sources are repeating this one pretty 235 00:14:10,640 --> 00:14:14,040 Speaker 4: sketchy claim by a Soviet double agent. 236 00:14:14,559 --> 00:14:17,520 Speaker 1: The double agent with the sketchy claim, you already know 237 00:14:17,600 --> 00:14:20,040 Speaker 1: him well, Oleg Gordievsky. 238 00:14:20,520 --> 00:14:23,880 Speaker 5: The Americans exercise may be preparation to a sudden new 239 00:14:23,920 --> 00:14:25,920 Speaker 5: play attack, But what. 240 00:14:25,840 --> 00:14:30,600 Speaker 1: Reason would Gordievsky have to lie about able archer. I'm 241 00:14:30,720 --> 00:14:38,000 Speaker 1: so glad you asked. It's nineteen eighty five. The world 242 00:14:38,080 --> 00:14:41,280 Speaker 1: is in slack jawed wonder at Sylvester Stallone's pex in 243 00:14:41,320 --> 00:14:44,960 Speaker 1: both Rocky four and Rambo two. And it's been a 244 00:14:45,040 --> 00:14:48,000 Speaker 1: year and a half since Oleg Gordievski met with his 245 00:14:48,080 --> 00:14:51,080 Speaker 1: MI six handler warning that the United States and the 246 00:14:51,080 --> 00:14:55,760 Speaker 1: Soviet Union were on the precipice of nuclear war. Since 247 00:14:55,840 --> 00:14:58,960 Speaker 1: Able Archer eighty three, Oleg has further risen in the 248 00:14:59,040 --> 00:15:02,880 Speaker 1: KGB ranks. He has just been appointed the Chief Resident 249 00:15:02,960 --> 00:15:05,920 Speaker 1: in London, with even greater access to the inner workings 250 00:15:05,960 --> 00:15:11,720 Speaker 1: of the KGB. He's six's prized source their biggest Cold 251 00:15:11,720 --> 00:15:16,960 Speaker 1: War accomplishment. And then one day Gordievski gets a telegram 252 00:15:17,000 --> 00:15:21,720 Speaker 1: from the Kremlin. It says, dearest Comrade Gordievski, please return 253 00:15:21,760 --> 00:15:28,360 Speaker 1: to Moscow immediately. Gordievsky and his six handlers knew that 254 00:15:28,480 --> 00:15:32,160 Speaker 1: returning home to Moscow was risky, but to defy the 255 00:15:32,280 --> 00:15:36,320 Speaker 1: order meant ending his KGB career just when it was 256 00:15:36,360 --> 00:15:42,240 Speaker 1: getting good, He decided to go. Gordievski reviewed his escape 257 00:15:42,280 --> 00:15:45,920 Speaker 1: plan with his six handlers. He would be extracted if 258 00:15:45,960 --> 00:15:51,640 Speaker 1: things went south. He kissed his wife and two daughters goodbye, 259 00:15:51,680 --> 00:15:54,640 Speaker 1: and boarded a plane for the Soviet Union. When he 260 00:15:54,720 --> 00:15:58,440 Speaker 1: arrived at his apartment in Moscow, the dead bolt was locked. 261 00:15:59,400 --> 00:16:01,480 Speaker 1: He never locked to the dead bolt, didn't even have 262 00:16:01,520 --> 00:16:04,680 Speaker 1: a key for it. At that moment, all that Gordievsky 263 00:16:04,760 --> 00:16:08,480 Speaker 1: knew he had been found out because, as it turns out, 264 00:16:08,640 --> 00:16:12,440 Speaker 1: there was a mole in the CIA. The CIA knew 265 00:16:12,480 --> 00:16:13,280 Speaker 1: it had a trader. 266 00:16:13,480 --> 00:16:16,560 Speaker 2: Asked why he did what he did, Aims said money 267 00:16:16,960 --> 00:16:18,000 Speaker 2: was his main motivation. 268 00:16:19,960 --> 00:16:22,320 Speaker 5: That's the case you bill runs as it was abregistration, 269 00:16:23,520 --> 00:16:27,080 Speaker 5: and yes, they decided to play contain mouse game with me. 270 00:16:28,200 --> 00:16:31,000 Speaker 1: The KGB knew they were compromised by a double agent, 271 00:16:31,080 --> 00:16:34,760 Speaker 1: and they suspected it was Gordievski, but they didn't know 272 00:16:34,840 --> 00:16:39,280 Speaker 1: it was him for sure, not yet. One day, they 273 00:16:39,320 --> 00:16:41,600 Speaker 1: scooped him up and drove him to a bungalow. They 274 00:16:41,640 --> 00:16:46,000 Speaker 1: spiked his drink and interrogated him for hours. Gordievski was 275 00:16:46,000 --> 00:16:50,400 Speaker 1: in a daze, hallucinating. He tried to tell himself to deny, deny, deny, 276 00:16:51,000 --> 00:16:53,320 Speaker 1: but he wasn't really aware of what he was saying. 277 00:16:54,560 --> 00:16:59,880 Speaker 1: After five hours, he blacked out. To this day, he 278 00:17:00,160 --> 00:17:03,440 Speaker 1: still doesn't remember what happened in that room. Meanwhile, the 279 00:17:03,520 --> 00:17:06,959 Speaker 1: KGB had retrieved Gordievsky's wife and two daughters from London, 280 00:17:07,160 --> 00:17:09,440 Speaker 1: and they were now on their way back to Moscow. 281 00:17:10,160 --> 00:17:13,560 Speaker 1: Grdioevsky was released and placed under twenty four hour surveillance. 282 00:17:14,160 --> 00:17:17,560 Speaker 5: I started to look on tho there was behind me. 283 00:17:18,480 --> 00:17:23,200 Speaker 5: It was very intimidating. During the Cold War, everybody who 284 00:17:23,320 --> 00:17:25,879 Speaker 5: was in touch was the foot of the Intelligence Service, 285 00:17:26,440 --> 00:17:30,679 Speaker 5: the service Union, each officer, all the court, and all 286 00:17:30,760 --> 00:17:32,680 Speaker 5: were shot all. 287 00:17:35,040 --> 00:17:37,880 Speaker 1: Gordievski would later describe this moment in his life as 288 00:17:38,040 --> 00:17:42,720 Speaker 1: utterly hopeless. He was thinking, instead of even trying to escape, 289 00:17:42,960 --> 00:17:45,560 Speaker 1: he might as well just give up, wait for the 290 00:17:45,560 --> 00:17:48,639 Speaker 1: bullet in the back of his neck. But his days 291 00:17:48,680 --> 00:17:54,919 Speaker 1: passed constantly looking over his shoulder. Gordievski somehow found his resolve. 292 00:17:56,000 --> 00:17:59,959 Speaker 5: And then they started to preparation to the game. 293 00:18:02,160 --> 00:18:05,080 Speaker 1: But if he had any chance of survival, he'd need 294 00:18:05,080 --> 00:18:09,959 Speaker 1: to leave alone, leave his family behind. There was no 295 00:18:10,040 --> 00:18:12,840 Speaker 1: time to second guess his decision. Gordievski was in a 296 00:18:12,920 --> 00:18:15,680 Speaker 1: race against the clock. Each day he failed to get 297 00:18:15,680 --> 00:18:17,800 Speaker 1: out of the Soviet Union was another day for the 298 00:18:17,880 --> 00:18:21,919 Speaker 1: KGB to confirm his identity as their traitorous double agent. 299 00:18:23,359 --> 00:18:27,440 Speaker 1: Gordievsky activated his escape plan on a Tuesday, at seven 300 00:18:27,560 --> 00:18:30,760 Speaker 1: thirty pm, Gordievski stood under a lamppost outside a bread 301 00:18:30,760 --> 00:18:34,880 Speaker 1: shop near Kievsky metro station. He carried a plastic Safeway 302 00:18:34,920 --> 00:18:38,240 Speaker 1: bag with a giant red s. He wore a peaked 303 00:18:38,400 --> 00:18:41,880 Speaker 1: cap a military hat. It was a signal to six 304 00:18:41,920 --> 00:18:45,560 Speaker 1: that he needed to be extracted. Get me the fuck 305 00:18:45,640 --> 00:18:49,600 Speaker 1: out of here. A few minutes later, Gordievsky watched a 306 00:18:49,640 --> 00:18:52,720 Speaker 1: man in gray trousers remove a green bag from his pocket, 307 00:18:53,119 --> 00:18:57,600 Speaker 1: remove a chocolate Mars bar, and begin eating it. This 308 00:18:57,800 --> 00:19:02,159 Speaker 1: seemingly unassuming gray trousered candy barmunching dude was an MI 309 00:19:02,400 --> 00:19:07,119 Speaker 1: sixter agent, signaling to Gordievski that his request had been recognized. 310 00:19:08,520 --> 00:19:11,520 Speaker 5: This was a scheme. It meant I would be picked 311 00:19:11,560 --> 00:19:15,960 Speaker 5: up on Saturday the same week at two. 312 00:19:15,880 --> 00:19:22,880 Speaker 1: O'clock, which meant by Saturday at two pm. Gordievsky had 313 00:19:22,880 --> 00:19:25,800 Speaker 1: to get himself to the pickup point, a boulder by 314 00:19:25,840 --> 00:19:28,080 Speaker 1: the side of the road in the countryside near the 315 00:19:28,080 --> 00:19:31,440 Speaker 1: Finish border, and he had to do it without being 316 00:19:31,480 --> 00:19:38,040 Speaker 1: detected by the KGB. On Friday, July nineteenth, Gordievsky did 317 00:19:38,080 --> 00:19:41,159 Speaker 1: the hardest thing he'd ever have to do. He packed 318 00:19:41,160 --> 00:19:43,720 Speaker 1: his bags and said goodbye to his family. 319 00:19:44,560 --> 00:19:49,640 Speaker 5: I shook up the Currells Court trained to Lenongrad. 320 00:19:50,600 --> 00:19:54,040 Speaker 1: Gordioevsky had shaken the kgbtail for now, but they could 321 00:19:54,080 --> 00:19:57,200 Speaker 1: catch up at any moment. On the overnight train to Leningrad, 322 00:19:57,240 --> 00:20:01,320 Speaker 1: Gordioewski settled into his top bunk and took to sedatives 323 00:20:01,640 --> 00:20:07,040 Speaker 1: because you know, he was feeling a little anxious. Apparently, 324 00:20:07,040 --> 00:20:10,080 Speaker 1: the sedatives knocked him out so hard that when the 325 00:20:10,080 --> 00:20:12,960 Speaker 1: train abruptly stopped, he rolled right off the top bunk 326 00:20:13,000 --> 00:20:16,399 Speaker 1: and bashed his head. Now blood was dripping down his face, 327 00:20:16,600 --> 00:20:20,879 Speaker 1: which makes it that much harder to blend in. From 328 00:20:21,000 --> 00:20:24,119 Speaker 1: Lennon station, Gordievsky hopped on a different train than a bus. 329 00:20:24,640 --> 00:20:28,400 Speaker 1: The bus approached the rendezvous point, the bus stopped, Gordievsky 330 00:20:28,480 --> 00:20:31,360 Speaker 1: got off. He looked at his watch and was ten 331 00:20:31,440 --> 00:20:34,880 Speaker 1: thirty four hours before six was supposed to pick him up. 332 00:20:35,600 --> 00:20:38,520 Speaker 1: What do you do? Dive into the shadows and wait right, 333 00:20:38,720 --> 00:20:42,119 Speaker 1: Just sit tight. The cavalry is almost there. All you 334 00:20:42,119 --> 00:20:46,240 Speaker 1: gotta do is just keep your head down. But that's 335 00:20:46,560 --> 00:20:50,320 Speaker 1: not our boyo Leg. Instead of hiding in the underbrush 336 00:20:50,320 --> 00:20:53,920 Speaker 1: and patiently waiting for six to arrive, as he certainly 337 00:20:54,000 --> 00:20:58,399 Speaker 1: should have done. Gordievsky made the truly insane decision to 338 00:20:58,680 --> 00:21:02,959 Speaker 1: hitchhike to the town of which is sixteen miles away, 339 00:21:03,320 --> 00:21:06,040 Speaker 1: so that he could have a drink at the local bar. 340 00:21:07,320 --> 00:21:10,680 Speaker 1: After downing a beer manned a chicken leg, he started 341 00:21:10,760 --> 00:21:15,680 Speaker 1: running the sixteen miles back to the rendezvous point in Corduroys. 342 00:21:16,359 --> 00:21:18,600 Speaker 1: Even if I wanted to, I could not make this 343 00:21:18,680 --> 00:21:22,640 Speaker 1: shit up. Evidently, he got tired of running before completing 344 00:21:22,640 --> 00:21:25,399 Speaker 1: his half marathon in Corduroys and decided to hitchhike the 345 00:21:25,440 --> 00:21:28,440 Speaker 1: rest of the way. Kordiewski stuck his thumb out the 346 00:21:28,560 --> 00:21:31,840 Speaker 1: car pulled over. Luckily it was not a KGB officer, 347 00:21:32,200 --> 00:21:34,880 Speaker 1: and Gordievski enjoyed the ride back to the rendezvous point. 348 00:21:35,600 --> 00:21:37,880 Speaker 1: As they approached the boulder by the side of the road, 349 00:21:37,960 --> 00:21:41,639 Speaker 1: literally in the middle of nowhere, Gordiewski asked the driver 350 00:21:41,680 --> 00:21:45,040 Speaker 1: to let him out here please and thank you, ostensibly 351 00:21:45,480 --> 00:21:49,920 Speaker 1: for a booty call, which sounds bonkers, but apparently the 352 00:21:50,040 --> 00:21:53,359 Speaker 1: driver was just like, oh yeah, classic countryside boulder hide 353 00:21:53,359 --> 00:21:57,240 Speaker 1: and hanky panky, go for it, buddy. Kordiewski climbed into 354 00:21:57,240 --> 00:22:00,439 Speaker 1: the underbrush, pulled out a bottle of beer, from his 355 00:22:00,520 --> 00:22:03,560 Speaker 1: pocket that he had somehow carried with him during his run, 356 00:22:04,359 --> 00:22:07,000 Speaker 1: and enjoyed it while he waited for him. I six 357 00:22:07,040 --> 00:22:11,160 Speaker 1: to retrieve him. And here's the best part. He got 358 00:22:11,200 --> 00:22:11,840 Speaker 1: away with it. 359 00:22:18,160 --> 00:22:22,159 Speaker 5: About thirty miles before the border. I was hiding in 360 00:22:22,240 --> 00:22:25,920 Speaker 5: the woods at an appointed time, which was two o'clock 361 00:22:26,800 --> 00:22:31,280 Speaker 5: to British cars stopped just exactly where I was lying. 362 00:22:32,200 --> 00:22:34,720 Speaker 1: You can still hear the wonder in his voice. This 363 00:22:34,840 --> 00:22:37,080 Speaker 1: one in a million miracle had happened. 364 00:22:38,240 --> 00:22:41,080 Speaker 5: I jumped into the boots of the car and they 365 00:22:41,160 --> 00:22:42,639 Speaker 5: went to the border. 366 00:22:46,160 --> 00:22:49,800 Speaker 1: Gordioevsky's brush with death was even closer than he knew. 367 00:22:50,520 --> 00:22:53,760 Speaker 1: He would later learn the KGB had confirmed his identity 368 00:22:53,760 --> 00:22:57,399 Speaker 1: as the double agent the week before he escaped. To 369 00:22:57,440 --> 00:23:00,000 Speaker 1: this day, we still don't know why they waited to pound, 370 00:23:00,920 --> 00:23:05,919 Speaker 1: but they did, and after a miraculous and somewhat claustrophobic escape, 371 00:23:06,040 --> 00:23:08,919 Speaker 1: he was now on his way to building a new life. 372 00:23:09,560 --> 00:23:19,520 Speaker 1: A former KGB spy defected to England. Except it wasn't 373 00:23:19,520 --> 00:23:22,879 Speaker 1: over for Gordievski. Sure he was free, he escaped the 374 00:23:22,920 --> 00:23:27,119 Speaker 1: Soviet Union, but he was alone. His wife and his 375 00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:30,719 Speaker 1: children were still trapped back in Moscow and he needed 376 00:23:30,720 --> 00:23:40,840 Speaker 1: to get them out commence Phase two Operation Reagan. After 377 00:23:40,880 --> 00:23:44,879 Speaker 1: his escape, Gordievsky's identity was officially revealed. He was safe 378 00:23:44,880 --> 00:23:47,240 Speaker 1: in the UK. There was no reason to hide. He 379 00:23:47,280 --> 00:23:49,600 Speaker 1: wrote books about his spying and what did he say? 380 00:23:50,040 --> 00:23:52,480 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, back in nineteen eighty three, the world almost 381 00:23:52,560 --> 00:23:55,639 Speaker 1: blew up. Not trying to brag, but kind of helped 382 00:23:55,640 --> 00:23:57,920 Speaker 1: cool things down a little, No, biggie, just what any 383 00:23:57,960 --> 00:24:01,080 Speaker 1: super cool double agent, super spy would have done. That's 384 00:24:01,119 --> 00:24:05,040 Speaker 1: when Reagan finally learned who his valuable British source was. 385 00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:09,400 Speaker 5: I'm afraiden and I met George Bush. 386 00:24:09,720 --> 00:24:12,960 Speaker 1: On July twenty first, nineteen eighty seven. Oleg Gordievsky was 387 00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:15,840 Speaker 1: invited for a meeting with Ronald Reagan and then Vice 388 00:24:15,920 --> 00:24:19,359 Speaker 1: President George H. W. Bush at the White House. I 389 00:24:19,359 --> 00:24:22,840 Speaker 1: guess Nancy's astrologer said, Olegg was chill. Yeah, no, I'm 390 00:24:22,840 --> 00:24:25,920 Speaker 1: not letting that go. Reagan's diary that day talked about 391 00:24:25,960 --> 00:24:29,280 Speaker 1: attending an event with Clint Eastwood and getting his contact 392 00:24:29,359 --> 00:24:34,520 Speaker 1: lenses cleaned. Then he writes, forgot this morning had a 393 00:24:34,560 --> 00:24:39,320 Speaker 1: meeting with Colonel Oleg Gordievski, the Soviet KGB officer who 394 00:24:39,359 --> 00:24:40,520 Speaker 1: defected to England. 395 00:24:41,200 --> 00:24:45,800 Speaker 5: Did Reagan ever talk to you about your reports? No, 396 00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:50,199 Speaker 5: the Reagan didn't talk to me about my reports, but 397 00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:59,560 Speaker 5: he short good knowledge how me and my significance. But 398 00:24:59,680 --> 00:25:01,680 Speaker 5: he was not such a brainy man. 399 00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:04,119 Speaker 1: Okay, don't know why you had to throw that burn 400 00:25:04,160 --> 00:25:08,159 Speaker 1: in there, as Gordievsky remembers that their conversation was a 401 00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:11,560 Speaker 1: sober one because Gordioevsky had a favor to ask. He 402 00:25:11,600 --> 00:25:15,040 Speaker 1: wanted to get his family out of Russia. Not actually 403 00:25:15,080 --> 00:25:17,159 Speaker 1: a lot to ask when your calling card is the 404 00:25:17,280 --> 00:25:21,719 Speaker 1: guy who saved the world from nuclear annihilation, and Reagan 405 00:25:21,760 --> 00:25:22,720 Speaker 1: decided to help him. 406 00:25:23,040 --> 00:25:26,280 Speaker 5: He said an important thing, I will give the instruction 407 00:25:26,520 --> 00:25:29,680 Speaker 5: to all the bodies to fight for your family. That 408 00:25:29,960 --> 00:25:36,400 Speaker 5: was enough because immediately the National Security Council, the States Department, 409 00:25:36,560 --> 00:25:39,399 Speaker 5: and the CIA started to also for the family. 410 00:25:40,080 --> 00:25:43,840 Speaker 1: Reagan later wrote in his diary Margaret Thatcher is working 411 00:25:43,840 --> 00:25:46,720 Speaker 1: on the Soviet says we are. We're going to hold 412 00:25:46,760 --> 00:25:48,639 Speaker 1: back and see if she can get his wife and 413 00:25:48,680 --> 00:25:52,520 Speaker 1: two children out of Russia. Continuing on, he wrote, I 414 00:25:52,720 --> 00:25:55,600 Speaker 1: just hope Oleg appreciates this enough that he never makes 415 00:25:55,600 --> 00:25:58,360 Speaker 1: a snide comment about the size of my brain. All Right, 416 00:25:58,480 --> 00:26:03,040 Speaker 1: I made that up. It took four years for them 417 00:26:03,040 --> 00:26:05,679 Speaker 1: to succeed. In the end, it all came down to 418 00:26:05,680 --> 00:26:08,000 Speaker 1: a show of good faith by a new Russian leader 419 00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:10,600 Speaker 1: trying to rebuild Russia's standing with the West. After the 420 00:26:10,600 --> 00:26:14,760 Speaker 1: collapse of the Soviet Union, the press covered the Gordievski 421 00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:18,600 Speaker 1: family reunion. He and his wife were like giggling school children, 422 00:26:19,160 --> 00:26:22,760 Speaker 1: thrilled to be back together at last. It's a beautiful moment. 423 00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:25,879 Speaker 1: I mean, the guy had escaped the Eastern Bloc and 424 00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:29,600 Speaker 1: was separated from his family for six years. This was 425 00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:35,360 Speaker 1: the moment that Gordievski had been dreaming about. Maybe it's 426 00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:39,240 Speaker 1: the kind of moment you do almost anything for, like 427 00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:44,160 Speaker 1: maybe even make up a story about saving the world 428 00:26:44,240 --> 00:26:45,400 Speaker 1: from nuclear destruction. 429 00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:54,960 Speaker 4: Gordievski is, in many ways the er source for the 430 00:26:55,040 --> 00:26:56,640 Speaker 4: Able Archer story. 431 00:26:57,200 --> 00:26:59,800 Speaker 1: Here's Simon Miles again. He says that even though the 432 00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:02,959 Speaker 1: Archer story became larger than life in the West, it 433 00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:06,480 Speaker 1: all goes back to one single source. It was all 434 00:27:06,600 --> 00:27:10,359 Speaker 1: from Oleg Gordievsky. He was the one who told six 435 00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:13,800 Speaker 1: that Soviets were afraid of nuclear war. It was Gordievsky's 436 00:27:13,800 --> 00:27:16,680 Speaker 1: account that prompted the CIA to look into Able Archer. 437 00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:20,199 Speaker 1: And it was Gordievsky's story that spurred Leonard Perutz to 438 00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:23,840 Speaker 1: write his dramatic retirement letter which led to the PIVAB. 439 00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:28,000 Speaker 1: And it was Gordievsky's terrifying tale that influenced the CIA 440 00:27:28,160 --> 00:27:32,320 Speaker 1: history in Ben Fischer's work, which totally shifted the Able 441 00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:37,200 Speaker 1: Archer consensus within the intelligence community. It all goes back 442 00:27:37,240 --> 00:27:42,199 Speaker 1: to Gordievsky. Is it possible, is it even conceivable that 443 00:27:42,280 --> 00:27:46,800 Speaker 1: he's lying? Is it possible that he exaggerated the story 444 00:27:47,359 --> 00:27:49,960 Speaker 1: after his defection to save his family. 445 00:27:53,359 --> 00:27:56,639 Speaker 4: And so you could imagine a situation in which a 446 00:27:56,720 --> 00:27:59,400 Speaker 4: spy is saying, hey, look at what I did. 447 00:27:59,440 --> 00:28:01,800 Speaker 1: I saved you from nuclear war. 448 00:28:01,800 --> 00:28:04,119 Speaker 4: And you won't get my wife and children, whom I 449 00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:07,119 Speaker 4: left behind out of the Soviet Union for me. 450 00:28:12,680 --> 00:28:16,359 Speaker 1: But hold on a second. There's proof, right, definitive proof. 451 00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:20,280 Speaker 1: That flash telegram that Gordievsky says he received on November 452 00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:23,639 Speaker 1: eighth or November ninth, he didn't remember, which, you know, 453 00:28:23,760 --> 00:28:26,080 Speaker 1: the one that said the kg BE believed that the 454 00:28:26,080 --> 00:28:29,720 Speaker 1: countdown to nuclear war had begun under cover of Able Archer. 455 00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:34,640 Speaker 1: Now all at Gordievsky and his handlers kept meticulous records. 456 00:28:35,280 --> 00:28:37,760 Speaker 1: He would go on to publish two books that included 457 00:28:37,880 --> 00:28:41,040 Speaker 1: hundreds of actual cables he received from Moscow during his 458 00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:44,400 Speaker 1: tenure as a spy in London. But the one telegram 459 00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:49,920 Speaker 1: we've never seen a copy of is this one interesting 460 00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:54,240 Speaker 1: and convenient. It's also worth pointing out that in the 461 00:28:54,320 --> 00:28:57,200 Speaker 1: years since Gordievski was reunited with his wife and kids, 462 00:28:57,560 --> 00:29:01,160 Speaker 1: his recollection of events got a little less. I Saved 463 00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:04,240 Speaker 1: the World back in the mid eighties. He was adamant 464 00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:07,000 Speaker 1: that Abel Archer was the peak of Soviet paranoia, that 465 00:29:07,040 --> 00:29:10,800 Speaker 1: the Soviets were convinced Reagan wanted to obliterate them, and further, 466 00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:13,800 Speaker 1: he said it was reasonable to assume his contribution had 467 00:29:13,800 --> 00:29:16,560 Speaker 1: pulled us back from the edge of annihilation. You know 468 00:29:16,640 --> 00:29:19,400 Speaker 1: that version. That's what you've been listening to this whole 469 00:29:19,440 --> 00:29:22,600 Speaker 1: time while doing the dishes, or driving to Milwaukee, or 470 00:29:22,600 --> 00:29:24,760 Speaker 1: whatever it does you do while listening to this podcast. 471 00:29:25,760 --> 00:29:28,400 Speaker 1: Years later, though, when he was asked about it all 472 00:29:28,440 --> 00:29:31,959 Speaker 1: again in two thousand and eight, he doesn't seem quite 473 00:29:32,040 --> 00:29:35,800 Speaker 1: so sure. He contradicts himself. He hedges a. 474 00:29:35,800 --> 00:29:43,480 Speaker 5: Little they're afraid, really, they'll think, because it's regularly as capable. 475 00:29:44,560 --> 00:29:46,760 Speaker 5: But it does mean that, says they will bring it 476 00:29:46,800 --> 00:29:51,360 Speaker 5: to the NUCLEU. That's why it was. I was never 477 00:29:51,400 --> 00:29:55,440 Speaker 5: in panic and didn't drunk to the officers as it 478 00:29:55,440 --> 00:30:00,560 Speaker 5: reports about Abel Archer, because I felt this was not 479 00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:06,760 Speaker 5: hundred percent serious? Is missing sense? It will never come, 480 00:30:06,920 --> 00:30:08,040 Speaker 5: will come to freition. 481 00:30:11,880 --> 00:30:17,400 Speaker 4: Here Gordievski is actually contradicting the Able Archer story and 482 00:30:17,520 --> 00:30:19,920 Speaker 4: saying that really it wasn't a moment of acute danger. 483 00:30:20,880 --> 00:30:24,120 Speaker 4: There wasn't really a sense that this was preparation for 484 00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:26,040 Speaker 4: a surprise attack, and so on and so forth. 485 00:30:27,560 --> 00:30:30,480 Speaker 1: So what does all this mean for the Able Archer story? 486 00:30:30,600 --> 00:30:33,400 Speaker 1: If the Soviet documents don't make Able Archer sound all 487 00:30:33,440 --> 00:30:38,320 Speaker 1: that serious, and Gordievsky may actually be, you know, exaggerating 488 00:30:38,360 --> 00:30:42,720 Speaker 1: a little, Is this whole story just a bunch of bullshit? 489 00:30:43,560 --> 00:30:47,040 Speaker 1: Can we ever know the truth about Able Archer? Well, 490 00:30:47,080 --> 00:30:50,040 Speaker 1: don't forget there was another man on the inside, that 491 00:30:50,200 --> 00:30:53,080 Speaker 1: other spy, the one in NATO, who said that during 492 00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:55,640 Speaker 1: Able Archer, the Russians panicked and he sent a message 493 00:30:55,640 --> 00:31:00,560 Speaker 1: that snipped the nuclear fuse with his spy Calculatoriner Rup 494 00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:05,479 Speaker 1: or as you may remember him, agent Topaz. So if 495 00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:07,840 Speaker 1: the Able larger story is a bunch of nonsense. Does 496 00:31:07,880 --> 00:31:11,960 Speaker 1: that mean that Rhiner Rupp is lying too? Oh no, 497 00:31:12,440 --> 00:31:21,000 Speaker 1: say it isn't so life had been pretty good for 498 00:31:21,080 --> 00:31:24,280 Speaker 1: Stazi secret agent Rhiner Reup. He was twelve years into 499 00:31:24,280 --> 00:31:27,400 Speaker 1: an undercover stint at NATO HQ. He was good at 500 00:31:27,440 --> 00:31:30,520 Speaker 1: his job, his NATO job where he kept getting promoted, 501 00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:34,280 Speaker 1: and also his Stazi job where he kept stealing NATO 502 00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:37,520 Speaker 1: files to destroy NATO. So I guess he wasn't all 503 00:31:37,520 --> 00:31:40,320 Speaker 1: that good at his NATO job after all. But then 504 00:31:40,360 --> 00:31:43,480 Speaker 1: as nineteen eighty nine came to a close, the ground 505 00:31:43,600 --> 00:31:49,520 Speaker 1: began to shake underneath his comfortable secret agent life. November ninth, 506 00:31:49,840 --> 00:31:53,720 Speaker 1: the Berlin Wall comes down, a massive global event. It 507 00:31:53,840 --> 00:31:57,440 Speaker 1: signaled the beginning of the end for communism. And then 508 00:31:57,760 --> 00:31:58,880 Speaker 1: as Christmas. 509 00:31:58,480 --> 00:32:03,680 Speaker 6: Rolled around, got a message of a top level spy 510 00:32:04,240 --> 00:32:05,360 Speaker 6: in the organization. 511 00:32:06,200 --> 00:32:09,920 Speaker 1: Eh boy, NATO knew there was a mole, some guy 512 00:32:09,960 --> 00:32:14,240 Speaker 1: who went by the code name Topaz. The intel suggested 513 00:32:14,280 --> 00:32:18,480 Speaker 1: that this Topaz was a senior NATO official, not some 514 00:32:18,640 --> 00:32:23,520 Speaker 1: paper pusher. Allowing a Communist spy into the innermost circle 515 00:32:24,040 --> 00:32:28,000 Speaker 1: was beyond humiliating. The discovery was catastrophic. 516 00:32:28,720 --> 00:32:33,320 Speaker 6: As a result, they started to search for this Toolpus. 517 00:32:33,640 --> 00:32:36,520 Speaker 1: So while everyone else in Brussels was roasting chestnuts on 518 00:32:36,560 --> 00:32:39,680 Speaker 1: an open fire and getting busy under the missiletoe like 519 00:32:39,720 --> 00:32:44,320 Speaker 1: they were Czech archivists, Rupp was hurrying to cover his tracks. 520 00:32:45,320 --> 00:32:48,840 Speaker 1: And then shortly after the fall of the Berlin Wall, 521 00:32:49,080 --> 00:32:53,000 Speaker 1: the people raided the stazi's headquarters in Berlin. What they 522 00:32:53,040 --> 00:33:00,320 Speaker 1: found shocked the world. Mountains of files. Somewhere married in 523 00:33:00,320 --> 00:33:04,720 Speaker 1: those Stazi files was the truth about agent Topaz's identity 524 00:33:05,960 --> 00:33:11,080 Speaker 1: repro but it wouldn't be easy to find. Papers had 525 00:33:11,120 --> 00:33:14,720 Speaker 1: been shredded into a gajillion pieces. STAZI digital records were 526 00:33:14,840 --> 00:33:18,240 Speaker 1: encrypted up the wazoo. It would take the West years 527 00:33:18,280 --> 00:33:22,520 Speaker 1: to piece the STAZI records together. And Topaz himself was 528 00:33:22,680 --> 00:33:24,600 Speaker 1: trying to derail the hunt. 529 00:33:24,920 --> 00:33:27,440 Speaker 6: And for reasons I don't want to go into, I 530 00:33:27,520 --> 00:33:29,440 Speaker 6: could follow all their work. 531 00:33:30,120 --> 00:33:33,880 Speaker 1: Remember, Rupp was still on the inside. He was even 532 00:33:33,920 --> 00:33:38,120 Speaker 1: participating in meetings about the Topaz hunt. Hey guys, got 533 00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:40,800 Speaker 1: a hot lead on this Topaz guy. Pretty sure he's 534 00:33:40,800 --> 00:33:45,120 Speaker 1: either in Buenos Aires or Singapore. Anyway. For a while, 535 00:33:45,160 --> 00:33:48,200 Speaker 1: he was able to remain just barely one step ahead. 536 00:33:49,080 --> 00:33:50,720 Speaker 1: NATO began to get desperate. 537 00:33:51,760 --> 00:33:56,440 Speaker 6: They've been big cash rewards offered to my former case officer. 538 00:33:57,080 --> 00:34:02,560 Speaker 6: I mean like in this that spy films, a case 539 00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:06,000 Speaker 6: of cash put on the table. 540 00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:14,279 Speaker 1: Honestly, despite the danger, NATO just couldn't seem to make progress, 541 00:34:14,680 --> 00:34:17,360 Speaker 1: and rhiner Up began to believe maybe he'd make it 542 00:34:17,400 --> 00:34:18,799 Speaker 1: out of this thing unscathed. 543 00:34:19,600 --> 00:34:23,360 Speaker 6: They got closed, but they never got close enough. Eventually 544 00:34:23,600 --> 00:34:26,680 Speaker 6: thought I was basically safe, and I was already looking 545 00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:29,799 Speaker 6: for a new job, because quite clearly I didn't want 546 00:34:29,840 --> 00:34:30,640 Speaker 6: to stay at NATO. 547 00:34:32,120 --> 00:34:36,080 Speaker 1: But piece by piece, those shredded documents were coming together, 548 00:34:36,680 --> 00:34:40,239 Speaker 1: the codes were getting cracked, and NATO was closing in. 549 00:34:41,120 --> 00:34:45,040 Speaker 6: And so they waited until I came back to Germany 550 00:34:45,239 --> 00:34:49,920 Speaker 6: for the anniversary of my mother. 551 00:34:50,520 --> 00:34:53,440 Speaker 1: He means his mom's birthday. It was July thirty first, 552 00:34:53,600 --> 00:34:57,920 Speaker 1: nineteen ninety three. Seventy German agents hid around Rupp's parents' 553 00:34:57,920 --> 00:35:02,000 Speaker 1: house as Rup and his wife and Christine arrived to celebrate. 554 00:35:02,600 --> 00:35:04,120 Speaker 1: They were both arrested. 555 00:35:04,520 --> 00:35:08,000 Speaker 5: What happened to you once you were caught, Well, i'ment 556 00:35:08,080 --> 00:35:08,680 Speaker 5: to prison. 557 00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:14,480 Speaker 1: Happy birthday, mom, I'm going to prison. Ryaner And and 558 00:35:14,640 --> 00:35:18,400 Speaker 1: Christine Rupp were charged for their crimes, and they each 559 00:35:18,440 --> 00:35:20,160 Speaker 1: faced life in prison. 560 00:35:21,200 --> 00:35:24,279 Speaker 5: It was not easy. 561 00:35:26,239 --> 00:35:28,440 Speaker 1: And Christine was allowed to be home with the Rupp's 562 00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:31,279 Speaker 1: children as she awaited trial, but he would await his 563 00:35:31,360 --> 00:35:34,399 Speaker 1: fate in a prison cell. Rhyiner Rupp would later say 564 00:35:34,440 --> 00:35:36,560 Speaker 1: that in a way he was glad the jig was up. 565 00:35:37,480 --> 00:35:39,840 Speaker 1: He didn't want his kids somehow caught up in his 566 00:35:39,960 --> 00:35:43,440 Speaker 1: double life. Eventually, and Christine Rupp was found guilty of 567 00:35:43,440 --> 00:35:46,320 Speaker 1: a betting treason, but when the judge considered her sentence, 568 00:35:46,360 --> 00:35:49,040 Speaker 1: he noted that she was caring for her children and 569 00:35:49,080 --> 00:35:51,520 Speaker 1: that the damage she did to the West was ultimately 570 00:35:51,880 --> 00:35:55,000 Speaker 1: not that severe. She was given a twenty two month 571 00:35:55,040 --> 00:35:58,880 Speaker 1: suspended sentence. The judge would not be so lenient with 572 00:35:59,040 --> 00:35:59,720 Speaker 1: Rhiner Rupp. 573 00:36:00,480 --> 00:36:01,440 Speaker 6: I was sentenced to. 574 00:36:03,520 --> 00:36:04,200 Speaker 5: Twelve years. 575 00:36:04,239 --> 00:36:09,719 Speaker 1: Eventually twelve years. The judge said that Reiner rupps espionage 576 00:36:09,760 --> 00:36:14,280 Speaker 1: created a danger of particularly grave disadvantage for Western Germany. 577 00:36:14,719 --> 00:36:17,080 Speaker 1: He said, if the Cold War hadn't ended, he would 578 00:36:17,120 --> 00:36:22,560 Speaker 1: have sentenced him to life. So Briner Rupp began his 579 00:36:22,680 --> 00:36:26,160 Speaker 1: twelve year prison sentence, and it's then that he and 580 00:36:26,200 --> 00:36:29,400 Speaker 1: his handlers immediately got to work on a pr campaign, 581 00:36:30,320 --> 00:36:34,040 Speaker 1: a campaign designed to enlist public support in getting RUP's 582 00:36:34,040 --> 00:36:38,759 Speaker 1: sentence reduced. Among other things, they told the story of 583 00:36:38,800 --> 00:36:42,960 Speaker 1: Reiner Rupp's involvement with Able Archer eighty three, a little 584 00:36:43,000 --> 00:36:52,040 Speaker 1: known nuclear near miss. One of his principal advocates was 585 00:36:52,080 --> 00:36:55,520 Speaker 1: a guy named Werner Grossman, the former deputy head of 586 00:36:55,560 --> 00:37:00,160 Speaker 1: the STAZI aka Rupp's boss. He said that back in 587 00:37:00,280 --> 00:37:01,360 Speaker 1: nineteen eighty three. 588 00:37:01,520 --> 00:37:05,960 Speaker 7: He said the KJB was convinced that there's gonna be 589 00:37:06,239 --> 00:37:06,840 Speaker 7: an attack. 590 00:37:07,200 --> 00:37:12,440 Speaker 1: That's the German Spy Museum's Florian Schimakowski. Grossman's account was credible. 591 00:37:12,719 --> 00:37:15,000 Speaker 1: He was, after all, a big dog in the STAZI, 592 00:37:15,080 --> 00:37:19,040 Speaker 1: the KGB's most trusted intelligence ally, and he was trying 593 00:37:19,040 --> 00:37:23,040 Speaker 1: to use RUP's insider NATO intelligence to diffuse all the tension. 594 00:37:23,880 --> 00:37:27,440 Speaker 1: But he said the KGB was so paranoid he couldn't 595 00:37:27,480 --> 00:37:28,760 Speaker 1: get them to see reason. 596 00:37:29,880 --> 00:37:32,799 Speaker 7: When I'm telling a fisherman that there are no fish 597 00:37:32,840 --> 00:37:35,560 Speaker 7: in the pond and they should actually stop fishing, but 598 00:37:35,719 --> 00:37:39,280 Speaker 7: the KJB didn't do it. They just were very, very nervous. 599 00:37:39,640 --> 00:37:43,319 Speaker 7: So they actually, from from their point of view, it 600 00:37:43,520 --> 00:37:45,200 Speaker 7: was very dangerous. 601 00:37:45,239 --> 00:37:49,040 Speaker 1: So dangerous that during NATO's annual Able Archer exercise, the 602 00:37:49,120 --> 00:37:52,400 Speaker 1: Soviets were utterly convinced that the time for a nuclear 603 00:37:52,400 --> 00:37:54,760 Speaker 1: attack had finally arrived. 604 00:37:55,040 --> 00:37:59,799 Speaker 7: And he said that the Russens were actually responding to 605 00:37:59,880 --> 00:38:03,080 Speaker 7: the whole situation at that time in an active way 606 00:38:03,200 --> 00:38:06,000 Speaker 7: and not in a reactive way. So he said, from 607 00:38:06,080 --> 00:38:10,160 Speaker 7: what they know, the Soviet Union was preparing to strike. 608 00:38:11,800 --> 00:38:14,320 Speaker 1: Grossman backed up the story that at the precise moment 609 00:38:14,360 --> 00:38:17,719 Speaker 1: the Soviets were convinced and attack was imminent, rain Or 610 00:38:17,800 --> 00:38:21,240 Speaker 1: Rupp sent a coded message from a calculator, a message 611 00:38:21,280 --> 00:38:23,480 Speaker 1: that may have saved the world. 612 00:38:24,000 --> 00:38:27,120 Speaker 7: Grossmann is convinced that Rubb played the whole part, a 613 00:38:27,360 --> 00:38:31,160 Speaker 7: huge part in that in calming the KJB down. 614 00:38:32,239 --> 00:38:35,480 Speaker 1: Grossman's claim was this, Yeah, Rupp was technically a trader 615 00:38:35,520 --> 00:38:39,440 Speaker 1: to West Germany, but his espionage actually wound up saving 616 00:38:39,520 --> 00:38:42,480 Speaker 1: West Germany, along with the rest of the world, from 617 00:38:42,480 --> 00:38:44,360 Speaker 1: the catastrophe of nuclear war. 618 00:38:45,320 --> 00:38:48,000 Speaker 7: He was not spying to harm anybody, buddy, and he 619 00:38:48,160 --> 00:38:53,360 Speaker 7: was never spying actually to prepare a Soviet attack. And 620 00:38:53,400 --> 00:38:57,000 Speaker 7: that's quite without a doubt. He was always spying to 621 00:38:57,040 --> 00:38:58,440 Speaker 7: prevent war from happening. 622 00:38:59,600 --> 00:39:03,520 Speaker 1: It was a sexy story and a very convenient one. 623 00:39:04,719 --> 00:39:08,640 Speaker 1: Maybe it could get Rupp's sentence reduced. Petitions began to 624 00:39:08,680 --> 00:39:12,200 Speaker 1: circulate advocating for Rhiner RUP's release. Even the winner of 625 00:39:12,239 --> 00:39:16,160 Speaker 1: the German Peace Prize appealed on RUP's behalf and eventually 626 00:39:16,600 --> 00:39:17,480 Speaker 1: it worked. 627 00:39:18,120 --> 00:39:23,239 Speaker 6: So in the end, the political situation kind of I think, 628 00:39:23,360 --> 00:39:28,719 Speaker 6: softened up so that I was released after seven years 629 00:39:28,320 --> 00:39:29,920 Speaker 6: in jail. 630 00:39:31,719 --> 00:39:34,120 Speaker 1: In July of two thousand, Rhiner Up was released from 631 00:39:34,160 --> 00:39:38,839 Speaker 1: prison five years early. He reunited with his wife. They're 632 00:39:38,880 --> 00:39:41,359 Speaker 1: still together to this day, living a long and by 633 00:39:41,400 --> 00:39:43,480 Speaker 1: all accounts, happy life in Germany. 634 00:39:44,200 --> 00:39:46,759 Speaker 7: But of course you have to keep in mind it's 635 00:39:46,800 --> 00:39:51,239 Speaker 7: hard to actually figure out if everything is one hundred percent. 636 00:39:51,160 --> 00:39:54,520 Speaker 1: Two thanks to them. 637 00:39:54,640 --> 00:39:57,719 Speaker 8: For example, Rhiner Rupp can say, well, look, we help 638 00:39:57,760 --> 00:40:00,920 Speaker 8: preserve the peace. Actually you should thank because we helped 639 00:40:00,920 --> 00:40:02,279 Speaker 8: you stop a nuclear war. 640 00:40:03,040 --> 00:40:06,040 Speaker 1: This is Douglas Salvage, an historian and probably the world's 641 00:40:06,040 --> 00:40:09,520 Speaker 1: foremost expert on the Stazi. Douglas is one of many 642 00:40:09,640 --> 00:40:13,440 Speaker 1: historians who aren't really buying what the Stazi are selling. 643 00:40:13,480 --> 00:40:16,760 Speaker 1: If you catch my meaning, I'm saying he thinks it's bullshit. 644 00:40:18,320 --> 00:40:21,000 Speaker 8: Now, there are a couple of problems with this. First 645 00:40:21,040 --> 00:40:25,880 Speaker 8: of all, there's a database of basically incoming intelligence reports, 646 00:40:25,920 --> 00:40:29,600 Speaker 8: including black writer. Rupp is sending, we can use this 647 00:40:29,760 --> 00:40:32,040 Speaker 8: and for the year that we're talking about nineteen eighty three. 648 00:40:32,120 --> 00:40:35,720 Speaker 8: It's a very good database of incoming information for Eastrum 649 00:40:35,719 --> 00:40:39,439 Speaker 8: and foreign intelligence. I checked and there's like no new 650 00:40:40,080 --> 00:40:46,239 Speaker 8: incoming intelligence regarding nuclear weapons from Rupp before November of 651 00:40:46,360 --> 00:40:47,360 Speaker 8: nineteen eighty three. 652 00:40:47,960 --> 00:40:50,880 Speaker 1: Not only that, there was no record in the archive 653 00:40:51,000 --> 00:40:55,400 Speaker 1: of Rupp's emergency calculator message during Able Archer. All we 654 00:40:55,520 --> 00:40:58,520 Speaker 1: have is the word of Rupp and the Stazi. 655 00:41:01,280 --> 00:41:04,279 Speaker 8: I suppose it's possibly gave a film called of role 656 00:41:04,400 --> 00:41:06,600 Speaker 8: for Maybe there's something they forgot to record. I don't 657 00:41:06,600 --> 00:41:10,520 Speaker 8: think that's the case. I won't say he's intentionally aligned. 658 00:41:10,640 --> 00:41:12,600 Speaker 8: He might just be mistaken, or he might remember it 659 00:41:12,640 --> 00:41:13,320 Speaker 8: a certain way. 660 00:41:13,760 --> 00:41:16,480 Speaker 1: I don't know, Doug, he seems pretty sure. 661 00:41:16,800 --> 00:41:21,799 Speaker 6: Do you remember sending a message I remember sending. 662 00:41:23,000 --> 00:41:24,879 Speaker 5: At the time of Abe Lacha. Yeah. 663 00:41:27,960 --> 00:41:30,480 Speaker 1: By the time ryaner Rupp began telling his story, Oleg 664 00:41:30,480 --> 00:41:33,799 Speaker 1: Gordievski had already published a couple of books where he 665 00:41:33,880 --> 00:41:38,480 Speaker 1: told his able larger story. It all begs the question 666 00:41:39,200 --> 00:41:42,520 Speaker 1: did Rhiner Rupp hear about Olegg's account and see an 667 00:41:42,560 --> 00:41:47,400 Speaker 1: opportunity to rehabilitate his own image by manufacturing a corroboration. 668 00:41:51,280 --> 00:41:54,880 Speaker 8: I am a firm believer, and the idea that you 669 00:41:54,920 --> 00:41:58,200 Speaker 8: can't say just because you haven't found the evidence or 670 00:41:58,239 --> 00:42:01,719 Speaker 8: the evidence doesn't exist, that it disproves something. So I'm 671 00:42:01,719 --> 00:42:04,080 Speaker 8: not going to say that it disproves that there was 672 00:42:04,120 --> 00:42:07,040 Speaker 8: this heightened sense of thread, or the absence of evidence 673 00:42:07,239 --> 00:42:13,120 Speaker 8: disproves that you Rubb played this important role. Maybe it's 674 00:42:13,160 --> 00:42:17,040 Speaker 8: even true, but there's no other supporting evidence that I've 675 00:42:17,080 --> 00:42:22,399 Speaker 8: found nothing. Now, if it turns out someday, if I'm 676 00:42:22,400 --> 00:42:25,799 Speaker 8: going to through the Stasi files or some book where 677 00:42:25,800 --> 00:42:28,440 Speaker 8: they're talking about the messages they sent to Moscow and 678 00:42:28,520 --> 00:42:31,000 Speaker 8: I find something different than I've change my opinion. But 679 00:42:31,320 --> 00:42:33,800 Speaker 8: I think this has all been overplayed. 680 00:42:36,200 --> 00:42:39,640 Speaker 1: Rubb had a motive. He wanted to shorten his prison sentence, 681 00:42:40,040 --> 00:42:42,920 Speaker 1: and he had the opportunity because he could basically just 682 00:42:43,000 --> 00:42:47,600 Speaker 1: piggyback on the story Gordievsky was already telling. Gordievsky also 683 00:42:47,760 --> 00:42:50,160 Speaker 1: had a motive. He needed to get his family out 684 00:42:50,200 --> 00:42:54,279 Speaker 1: of the Soviet Union, and coincidentally, neither of them have 685 00:42:54,400 --> 00:42:57,920 Speaker 1: been able to produce the key evidence supporting their able 686 00:42:58,040 --> 00:43:01,360 Speaker 1: Archer heroics. Gordievski he was never able to produce a 687 00:43:01,360 --> 00:43:04,239 Speaker 1: copy of the flash telegram. He says he received from 688 00:43:04,239 --> 00:43:07,719 Speaker 1: the KGB on November eighth or ninth, the one that 689 00:43:07,800 --> 00:43:10,200 Speaker 1: said the countdown to a nuclear strike had begun under 690 00:43:10,200 --> 00:43:13,279 Speaker 1: cover of Able Archer. And there is no record of 691 00:43:13,360 --> 00:43:18,440 Speaker 1: Rupp's emergency message either, which means we've found ourselves in 692 00:43:18,560 --> 00:43:23,799 Speaker 1: quite the pickle. Here's a quick recap this Able Archer 693 00:43:23,840 --> 00:43:27,560 Speaker 1: war scare story that the West has finally accepted. There's 694 00:43:27,600 --> 00:43:31,360 Speaker 1: no record of it in Eastern Bloc archives, and the 695 00:43:31,440 --> 00:43:34,760 Speaker 1: two main sources of the story, well, they have pretty 696 00:43:34,800 --> 00:43:39,080 Speaker 1: strong motives to lie and they have no proof. Plus, 697 00:43:39,239 --> 00:43:42,799 Speaker 1: Soviet leaders were pretty into Cold War performance, so maybe 698 00:43:43,000 --> 00:43:49,040 Speaker 1: the propaganda theory was right all along. But Nate Jones 699 00:43:49,120 --> 00:43:52,240 Speaker 1: is still working to prove the opposite. And there's still 700 00:43:52,239 --> 00:43:56,399 Speaker 1: a key document that hasn't been declassified, one that might 701 00:43:56,600 --> 00:44:04,320 Speaker 1: prove Able Archer was a big deal. Next time on Snaffoo. 702 00:44:04,000 --> 00:44:06,640 Speaker 8: It went through the mail slit, so there's kind of 703 00:44:06,880 --> 00:44:10,520 Speaker 8: a thud onto the floor that was about one hundred 704 00:44:10,560 --> 00:44:13,640 Speaker 8: pages thick with government and dress government stamps. 705 00:44:14,040 --> 00:44:16,320 Speaker 1: So I knew it might be good. My heart started 706 00:44:16,320 --> 00:44:22,399 Speaker 1: beating a little bit. Snaffoo is a production of iHeartRadio, Film, 707 00:44:22,440 --> 00:44:26,120 Speaker 1: Nation Entertainment, and Pacific Electric Picture Company in association with 708 00:44:26,200 --> 00:44:30,920 Speaker 1: Gilded Audio. It's executive produced by me Ed Helms, Golan Papelka, 709 00:44:31,160 --> 00:44:35,400 Speaker 1: Mike Falbo, Andy Chubb, and Whitney Donaldson. Our lead producers 710 00:44:35,400 --> 00:44:39,240 Speaker 1: are Sarah Joyner and Alyssa Martino. Our producer is Carl Nellis, 711 00:44:39,280 --> 00:44:43,160 Speaker 1: Associate producer Torry Smith. Our senior editor is Jeffrey Lewis, 712 00:44:43,239 --> 00:44:45,839 Speaker 1: and so I can say any damn thing I want. 713 00:44:46,040 --> 00:44:48,720 Speaker 1: This episode was written by Carl Nellis and Sarah Joyner, 714 00:44:48,760 --> 00:44:51,960 Speaker 1: with additional writing from me Elliott Kalin and Whitney Donaldson. 715 00:44:52,200 --> 00:44:55,520 Speaker 1: Olivia Kenny is our production assistant. Our creative executive is 716 00:44:55,560 --> 00:44:58,520 Speaker 1: Brett Harris. Additional research and fact checking by Charles Richter, 717 00:44:59,000 --> 00:45:02,279 Speaker 1: Engineering and technical direction by Nick Dooley. Original music and 718 00:45:02,320 --> 00:45:06,320 Speaker 1: sound design by Dan Rosatto. Additional editing from Ben Chug. 719 00:45:06,840 --> 00:45:09,960 Speaker 1: Some archival audio in this episode originally appeared in Taylor 720 00:45:10,000 --> 00:45:14,200 Speaker 1: Downing's fantastic film nineteen eighty three, The Brink of Apocalypse. 721 00:45:14,680 --> 00:45:18,000 Speaker 1: Thank you, mister Downing for permission to use it. Special 722 00:45:18,000 --> 00:45:20,239 Speaker 1: thanks to Alison Cohen and Matt Aisenstadt.