1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:02,040 Speaker 1: But what a pleasure this is to talk to Bill Bratton. 2 00:00:02,080 --> 00:00:04,280 Speaker 1: Bill was the commissioner of the Boston Police Department of 3 00:00:04,280 --> 00:00:06,720 Speaker 1: the nineties, commissioner in the New York City Police Department, 4 00:00:06,920 --> 00:00:09,880 Speaker 1: chief of Los Angeles Police as well, and his new 5 00:00:09,920 --> 00:00:13,640 Speaker 1: book is perhaps the perfect book for our times. The Profession, 6 00:00:13,800 --> 00:00:16,640 Speaker 1: A Memoir of Community, race, and the arc of Policing 7 00:00:16,760 --> 00:00:20,239 Speaker 1: in America. Bill Bratton, Bill, how are you, sir? So 8 00:00:20,600 --> 00:00:22,720 Speaker 1: very well. It's great to be talking to you on 9 00:00:22,760 --> 00:00:24,880 Speaker 1: the West coast. They had seven great years there at 10 00:00:24,880 --> 00:00:28,200 Speaker 1: the l A p D. So it's always nice to reconnect. Awesome. 11 00:00:28,720 --> 00:00:31,440 Speaker 1: Um So I noticed the other day how crime is 12 00:00:31,480 --> 00:00:33,879 Speaker 1: climbing the charts like a hit record in terms of 13 00:00:33,920 --> 00:00:38,440 Speaker 1: a topic of political topic. Seventy five percent of Americans 14 00:00:38,479 --> 00:00:40,960 Speaker 1: believe crime is worse today than it was a year ago. 15 00:00:41,360 --> 00:00:44,440 Speaker 1: And for their own local area where they live, a 16 00:00:44,479 --> 00:00:47,920 Speaker 1: majority of people say crime is worse than it was 17 00:00:48,280 --> 00:00:52,000 Speaker 1: a year ago. After decades of crime going down, it's 18 00:00:52,040 --> 00:00:55,680 Speaker 1: going up. And people's perception of it also, well, first 19 00:00:55,680 --> 00:00:57,160 Speaker 1: of all, do you agree with that and what's to 20 00:00:57,160 --> 00:00:59,600 Speaker 1: be done? I certainly agree with it, And what I'm 21 00:00:59,600 --> 00:01:02,600 Speaker 1: surprised about that it's not a d percent for both categories. 22 00:01:02,640 --> 00:01:05,840 Speaker 1: That what had happened at the beginning of the nineties, 23 00:01:05,880 --> 00:01:10,039 Speaker 1: we began a crime reversal turnaround that for thirty years, 24 00:01:10,040 --> 00:01:13,520 Speaker 1: America was getting safer. There was certainly spots that were not, 25 00:01:13,680 --> 00:01:18,280 Speaker 1: but New York City, my home city, homicized down overall 26 00:01:18,319 --> 00:01:23,039 Speaker 1: climate percent, overall climate America down, many of the cities 27 00:01:23,040 --> 00:01:26,399 Speaker 1: that you broadcast into. Uh. We're doing pretty well over 28 00:01:26,440 --> 00:01:29,800 Speaker 1: that period of time, but the last couple of years, 29 00:01:29,840 --> 00:01:33,839 Speaker 1: it's uh uh turned around dramatically. What's different this time 30 00:01:34,000 --> 00:01:37,039 Speaker 1: is how fast it's happened, and people didn't expect that. 31 00:01:37,080 --> 00:01:39,880 Speaker 1: We're focused on the coronavirus, and now that the virus 32 00:01:39,920 --> 00:01:43,400 Speaker 1: is subsiding, this new virus is moving to center stage 33 00:01:43,840 --> 00:01:46,320 Speaker 1: and it's going to be as difficult as the coronavirus 34 00:01:46,360 --> 00:01:48,440 Speaker 1: to deal with. Well, there's a hot video making the 35 00:01:48,560 --> 00:01:52,160 Speaker 1: rounds in social media yesterday out of San Francisco. Because 36 00:01:52,200 --> 00:01:55,640 Speaker 1: they have decriminalized crime in San Francisco. You had a 37 00:01:55,680 --> 00:01:58,160 Speaker 1: guy clearing off the shelves at the Walgreens into a 38 00:01:58,200 --> 00:02:00,560 Speaker 1: trash bag, getting on his bike and out the door 39 00:02:00,600 --> 00:02:02,600 Speaker 1: without anybody doing anything about it. I don't know if 40 00:02:02,640 --> 00:02:05,320 Speaker 1: you saw that did not see that. But it's just 41 00:02:06,080 --> 00:02:08,120 Speaker 1: one of a slew of videos in the sense of 42 00:02:08,120 --> 00:02:12,680 Speaker 1: the lawlessness that politicians have created in state after state, 43 00:02:12,720 --> 00:02:17,720 Speaker 1: city after city with basically prosecutors won't prosecute for shoplifting. 44 00:02:18,160 --> 00:02:20,400 Speaker 1: So police are not going to make a restaurants to 45 00:02:20,480 --> 00:02:25,160 Speaker 1: our owners beside themselves. And so how can you have 46 00:02:25,200 --> 00:02:29,480 Speaker 1: a society whether it's not punishment for longdoing, whether it's 47 00:02:29,520 --> 00:02:33,320 Speaker 1: minor like shoplifting, but in the sense of minus shoplifting, 48 00:02:33,480 --> 00:02:36,120 Speaker 1: if you want a store, it's not minor to you, uh, 49 00:02:36,160 --> 00:02:39,440 Speaker 1: and then it just encourages more egregious behavior that character 50 00:02:39,480 --> 00:02:41,079 Speaker 1: of guarantee you'll be back in a week with a 51 00:02:41,120 --> 00:02:45,440 Speaker 1: bigger shopping bag and there's nothing's going to happen to him. 52 00:02:45,560 --> 00:02:47,800 Speaker 1: What do you think led to the election, especially on 53 00:02:47,800 --> 00:02:51,440 Speaker 1: the West coast of some of these far left days 54 00:02:51,840 --> 00:02:56,120 Speaker 1: chesso Bodine and and his sort um. Is it just 55 00:02:56,160 --> 00:02:58,320 Speaker 1: that crime had gotten so low people started to think 56 00:02:58,320 --> 00:03:02,720 Speaker 1: that there was no need to be tough on crime. Well, 57 00:03:02,760 --> 00:03:05,240 Speaker 1: the harmony of it in terms of one of the 58 00:03:05,280 --> 00:03:08,560 Speaker 1: tools used to get climbed down had been arrests, etcetera. 59 00:03:09,440 --> 00:03:12,160 Speaker 1: Enforcement of quality of life crime. After the seventies and eighties, 60 00:03:12,160 --> 00:03:14,440 Speaker 1: we paid no attention to it than in the nineties 61 00:03:14,480 --> 00:03:18,560 Speaker 1: we began to and there was a concern that too 62 00:03:18,560 --> 00:03:21,160 Speaker 1: many people had gone to jail in California. Had three 63 00:03:21,200 --> 00:03:23,480 Speaker 1: strikes in your out and a lot of people went 64 00:03:23,520 --> 00:03:27,160 Speaker 1: to jail for life a third seemingly minor crime. So 65 00:03:27,200 --> 00:03:30,120 Speaker 1: there was this sense that, well, crime was down, let's 66 00:03:30,120 --> 00:03:35,080 Speaker 1: try some alternatives. Unfortunately, the criminal justice reform movement is 67 00:03:35,160 --> 00:03:39,160 Speaker 1: moving too fast, uh, with some well intended ideas that 68 00:03:39,320 --> 00:03:44,080 Speaker 1: basically in practicality and reality just not working out. Relative 69 00:03:44,120 --> 00:03:47,920 Speaker 1: to your das, George sources. Open Society has been funding 70 00:03:48,280 --> 00:03:51,560 Speaker 1: the election of progressive das around the country. You've got 71 00:03:51,640 --> 00:03:55,160 Speaker 1: a number that's certainly in California. I actually think what's 72 00:03:55,160 --> 00:03:58,320 Speaker 1: going to happen. Most of them were elected during times 73 00:03:58,320 --> 00:04:01,360 Speaker 1: of relatively low crime, and they're going to put their 74 00:04:01,400 --> 00:04:05,000 Speaker 1: ideas into a public that had becomes somewhat complacent. If 75 00:04:05,000 --> 00:04:07,400 Speaker 1: we have a couple more years like this past year, 76 00:04:07,760 --> 00:04:09,680 Speaker 1: you're going to see return to the nineties with a 77 00:04:09,760 --> 00:04:12,360 Speaker 1: public on the rise up and say we've had enough, 78 00:04:12,760 --> 00:04:15,160 Speaker 1: let's get back to some law and auto. Yeah. I 79 00:04:15,200 --> 00:04:17,800 Speaker 1: read your piece in the New York Times over the 80 00:04:17,800 --> 00:04:19,839 Speaker 1: weekend pretty cool. You got featured in the New York 81 00:04:19,839 --> 00:04:23,000 Speaker 1: Times book review where they ask the authors all the questions. 82 00:04:23,040 --> 00:04:25,480 Speaker 1: I really enjoyed that, And actually I've started reading that 83 00:04:25,640 --> 00:04:27,760 Speaker 1: nineteen thirty nine that you recommended as one of your 84 00:04:27,760 --> 00:04:31,200 Speaker 1: favorite books. But you also talked to a great, great, 85 00:04:31,200 --> 00:04:35,320 Speaker 1: great book, the Rise of dot Nazi Germany and then 86 00:04:35,400 --> 00:04:37,760 Speaker 1: up to the World War Two. Yeah, I'm loving it 87 00:04:37,800 --> 00:04:40,360 Speaker 1: so far. But you also mentioned the book Broken Windows 88 00:04:40,360 --> 00:04:43,120 Speaker 1: and the influence that had on you. What described that 89 00:04:43,160 --> 00:04:45,400 Speaker 1: For anybody who doesn't know what that theory is about, 90 00:04:46,000 --> 00:04:50,560 Speaker 1: Broken windows is a theory articulated by George Kelling, great 91 00:04:50,600 --> 00:04:53,400 Speaker 1: friend and mentor recently passed, and Jim Wilson passed and 92 00:04:53,480 --> 00:04:56,240 Speaker 1: over years ago. Uh that I'm probably one of the 93 00:04:56,240 --> 00:05:01,520 Speaker 1: principal implements are practitioners of and adherence to. Broken Windows 94 00:05:02,320 --> 00:05:04,960 Speaker 1: basically is the idea that if you don't take care 95 00:05:05,000 --> 00:05:08,680 Speaker 1: of small things like small crimes on the street, that 96 00:05:08,800 --> 00:05:12,320 Speaker 1: you create an atmosphere of increased lawlessness. For example of 97 00:05:12,360 --> 00:05:15,039 Speaker 1: shoplifting you just talked about, if you don't deal with that, 98 00:05:15,040 --> 00:05:16,680 Speaker 1: that guy is going to come back and just keep 99 00:05:16,720 --> 00:05:19,200 Speaker 1: coming back. You've got to stop it. It's like a child. 100 00:05:19,200 --> 00:05:21,120 Speaker 1: If you don't correct behavior that child, that child is 101 00:05:21,120 --> 00:05:23,840 Speaker 1: going to go out of control. You don't weed you gotten, 102 00:05:24,200 --> 00:05:26,159 Speaker 1: the guiden is going to get out of control and 103 00:05:26,160 --> 00:05:30,200 Speaker 1: basically destroy even the strongest tree. So we practice that, 104 00:05:30,240 --> 00:05:33,000 Speaker 1: but the challenges policing is to do it in an 105 00:05:33,040 --> 00:05:35,960 Speaker 1: appropriate degree. It's like a doctor treating you for an illness. 106 00:05:36,000 --> 00:05:38,520 Speaker 1: You don't want to be overtreated. And there's a lot 107 00:05:38,560 --> 00:05:40,880 Speaker 1: of attacks on broken windows now because we felt it 108 00:05:41,000 --> 00:05:44,480 Speaker 1: was unfairly impactful on minority neighborhoods with so much of 109 00:05:44,520 --> 00:05:47,440 Speaker 1: the crime and just sort of occur unfortunately, And so 110 00:05:47,560 --> 00:05:50,240 Speaker 1: I'm a great believer in it. It's community policing. The 111 00:05:50,440 --> 00:05:53,880 Speaker 1: essence of community policing is partnership with the community to 112 00:05:53,960 --> 00:05:57,040 Speaker 1: identify what is it the community wants the police to address, 113 00:05:57,160 --> 00:05:59,599 Speaker 1: and how do we address it together, and what's the 114 00:05:59,640 --> 00:06:03,760 Speaker 1: goal thevention? And so community policing invoking windows are one 115 00:06:03,800 --> 00:06:05,960 Speaker 1: and the same thing. When the community calls you to 116 00:06:05,960 --> 00:06:08,160 Speaker 1: come in and deal with the drunk on the corner 117 00:06:08,160 --> 00:06:10,480 Speaker 1: of the gang in the corner of the barbecue has 118 00:06:10,480 --> 00:06:13,840 Speaker 1: gone out of control of the prostitute, that's broken windows. 119 00:06:13,880 --> 00:06:16,920 Speaker 1: That's fixing those windows that are creating fear in the neighborhood, 120 00:06:18,240 --> 00:06:21,440 Speaker 1: which leads us brilliantly into the next phase of the 121 00:06:21,440 --> 00:06:24,200 Speaker 1: conversation with Bill Bratton. His book is The Profession, A 122 00:06:24,240 --> 00:06:27,360 Speaker 1: Memoir of community, Race, and the arc of policing in America. 123 00:06:27,839 --> 00:06:31,960 Speaker 1: Where do we start to heal the distrust and and 124 00:06:32,120 --> 00:06:35,880 Speaker 1: out and out dislike between much of urban black America 125 00:06:36,000 --> 00:06:39,880 Speaker 1: and our nation's police departments. It can be done, U. 126 00:06:40,400 --> 00:06:42,760 Speaker 1: One of the reasons I went to New York shoose 127 00:06:42,839 --> 00:06:45,679 Speaker 1: me to Los Angeles. The primary reason was I believe 128 00:06:45,800 --> 00:06:47,880 Speaker 1: that in that city that had one of the worst 129 00:06:47,960 --> 00:06:51,440 Speaker 1: racial situations between police and black community in the nation, 130 00:06:51,680 --> 00:06:53,960 Speaker 1: a police force that had louie and at war with 131 00:06:54,040 --> 00:06:57,719 Speaker 1: this black community for fifty years, that the issue of 132 00:06:58,040 --> 00:07:02,360 Speaker 1: police in race entwined. You can't separate the two. You're 133 00:07:02,360 --> 00:07:04,560 Speaker 1: never going to solve the race problems to solve the 134 00:07:04,640 --> 00:07:07,919 Speaker 1: issue of police dealing with the race issues. And so 135 00:07:08,000 --> 00:07:10,320 Speaker 1: in l A. I purposely went there with the belief 136 00:07:10,440 --> 00:07:13,880 Speaker 1: that if we could fix the problem there at least 137 00:07:13,960 --> 00:07:17,320 Speaker 1: ameliorated significantly, there would be hope for the rest of 138 00:07:17,320 --> 00:07:20,360 Speaker 1: the country. And we did it. By two thousand nine, 139 00:07:20,400 --> 00:07:24,000 Speaker 1: after seven years, crime was down dramatically. We increased the 140 00:07:24,040 --> 00:07:27,600 Speaker 1: size of the police force, increased minority representation, and the 141 00:07:27,680 --> 00:07:30,800 Speaker 1: race issues in the city. That city did not have 142 00:07:30,880 --> 00:07:35,840 Speaker 1: a significant race racial disturbance from two thousand to to 143 00:07:36,480 --> 00:07:40,960 Speaker 1: the George Floyd event George Floyd, So there had been 144 00:07:41,080 --> 00:07:44,200 Speaker 1: a growth of trust between the black community and the 145 00:07:44,320 --> 00:07:47,040 Speaker 1: l A p D l A times that the joy lies. 146 00:07:47,080 --> 00:07:49,520 Speaker 1: When I left the city in two thousand nine after 147 00:07:49,560 --> 00:07:53,080 Speaker 1: we finished implementing the federal Consent Decree, that finally a 148 00:07:53,200 --> 00:07:56,560 Speaker 1: kana had been turned on race relations in Los Angeles, 149 00:07:57,440 --> 00:07:59,880 Speaker 1: it was quite an accolade. So it can be done, 150 00:08:00,000 --> 00:08:02,640 Speaker 1: to be quite a lot of hard work. And uh, 151 00:08:02,840 --> 00:08:04,320 Speaker 1: I write about it this in the book. There was 152 00:08:04,320 --> 00:08:07,400 Speaker 1: a community active at Sweet Alice down at Watts And 153 00:08:07,440 --> 00:08:10,520 Speaker 1: when I was leaving, she said it to me, Chief, 154 00:08:10,560 --> 00:08:12,280 Speaker 1: you know why I would like you so much? And 155 00:08:12,320 --> 00:08:14,880 Speaker 1: I said, no. Sweet Alice wires that she says, because 156 00:08:14,920 --> 00:08:18,640 Speaker 1: you see us, you really see us. Uh. And what 157 00:08:18,800 --> 00:08:22,760 Speaker 1: she was saying was that, Uh, to basically solve problems, 158 00:08:22,760 --> 00:08:25,239 Speaker 1: you have to see each other and see each other's 159 00:08:25,240 --> 00:08:28,240 Speaker 1: perspective about problems. It can be done. It's a lot 160 00:08:28,280 --> 00:08:32,040 Speaker 1: of hard work. You need patients, but it can be done. 161 00:08:32,280 --> 00:08:33,920 Speaker 1: I know. We only got about a minute left. But 162 00:08:34,120 --> 00:08:36,440 Speaker 1: a constant refrain from the left is we have too 163 00:08:36,440 --> 00:08:39,520 Speaker 1: many people behind bars. Build schools, not prisons. I feel 164 00:08:39,520 --> 00:08:41,640 Speaker 1: like we need to have as many people behind bars. 165 00:08:41,640 --> 00:08:43,920 Speaker 1: Are committee crimes, so that's the correct number. But do 166 00:08:43,960 --> 00:08:46,760 Speaker 1: we have too many people in jail? We far a 167 00:08:46,800 --> 00:08:49,199 Speaker 1: period of time, did put too many people in jail. 168 00:08:49,280 --> 00:08:50,920 Speaker 1: There a lot of people who went to jail for 169 00:08:51,000 --> 00:08:54,320 Speaker 1: drug offenses. My own state, New York Locofella gun laws, 170 00:08:54,440 --> 00:08:58,800 Speaker 1: alcofolla laws, uh, California three strikes you about a lot 171 00:08:58,800 --> 00:09:02,160 Speaker 1: of people could be treated for a narcotics instead of 172 00:09:02,200 --> 00:09:05,640 Speaker 1: being in jail. A lot of people could also who 173 00:09:05,640 --> 00:09:09,160 Speaker 1: had committed those broken windows minor crimes be sent to 174 00:09:09,360 --> 00:09:14,240 Speaker 1: alternative types of rehabilitation rather than prison. So did we 175 00:09:14,320 --> 00:09:18,160 Speaker 1: over in consplerrate? We did a lesson learned. But you're 176 00:09:18,240 --> 00:09:21,040 Speaker 1: correct that a lot of people have to be in jail. 177 00:09:21,360 --> 00:09:23,480 Speaker 1: In New York state, eighty per cent of the people 178 00:09:23,800 --> 00:09:26,600 Speaker 1: in state prison of the f a violent crime. So 179 00:09:26,679 --> 00:09:29,520 Speaker 1: this over and concelration myth. You don't go to jail 180 00:09:29,559 --> 00:09:32,560 Speaker 1: for fair evasion or shoplifting in New York. You go 181 00:09:32,640 --> 00:09:34,560 Speaker 1: to jail for violent crime. And even then it's hard 182 00:09:34,559 --> 00:09:37,120 Speaker 1: to get you in jail at prison sometimes. So it's 183 00:09:37,160 --> 00:09:40,000 Speaker 1: a it's a hashtag that's been driving a lot of 184 00:09:40,000 --> 00:09:42,599 Speaker 1: public policy and a lot of sentiments, but it was 185 00:09:42,640 --> 00:09:46,080 Speaker 1: based on some reality, particularly back in the nineties. The 186 00:09:46,120 --> 00:09:48,680 Speaker 1: book is the professional memoir of community race in the 187 00:09:48,760 --> 00:09:51,559 Speaker 1: ark of policing in America. Bill Bratton, Chief, Hey, it's 188 00:09:51,559 --> 00:09:53,160 Speaker 1: great to speak with you. Thanks for the time. Good 189 00:09:53,200 --> 00:09:55,480 Speaker 1: luck with the book. Nice start, good luck with the 190 00:09:55,520 --> 00:09:59,720 Speaker 1: drawt out there guys, Thank you. Um, you know it's interesting, Uh, 191 00:10:00,040 --> 00:10:01,760 Speaker 1: I don't want anybody in jail who doesn't need to 192 00:10:01,760 --> 00:10:05,120 Speaker 1: be in jail, absolutely right, hardly the worst thing could 193 00:10:05,280 --> 00:10:07,800 Speaker 1: happen when you're when you lean libertarian and have somebody 194 00:10:07,840 --> 00:10:10,840 Speaker 1: behind bars that doesn't belong there. But it's kind of 195 00:10:10,880 --> 00:10:13,320 Speaker 1: interesting that we had the lowest crime rate in US 196 00:10:13,440 --> 00:10:16,319 Speaker 1: history at the time that we uh, we were over 197 00:10:16,679 --> 00:10:20,160 Speaker 1: jailing people. Um, I don't want to over jail people, 198 00:10:20,200 --> 00:10:24,880 Speaker 1: but crime was really low, right, absolutely well, And this 199 00:10:24,920 --> 00:10:28,800 Speaker 1: gets back to the Joe Getty uh principle of society's 200 00:10:28,880 --> 00:10:31,880 Speaker 1: veering between the guardrails and never realizing when they have 201 00:10:32,160 --> 00:10:35,480 Speaker 1: it right in the sweet spot. When you feel like 202 00:10:35,600 --> 00:10:39,559 Speaker 1: we're over incarcerating people, Look there's no crime. The the 203 00:10:39,760 --> 00:10:42,360 Speaker 1: urge is to listen to people who got want to 204 00:10:42,360 --> 00:10:45,840 Speaker 1: go way to the other side, and and they are 205 00:10:45,880 --> 00:10:48,719 Speaker 1: the loudest, most persuasive voices. And those who say, look, 206 00:10:48,800 --> 00:10:51,040 Speaker 1: let's let's move a little carefully, let's tweak it a 207 00:10:51,080 --> 00:10:53,319 Speaker 1: little bit, let's be careful what we do, they're just 208 00:10:53,440 --> 00:10:58,199 Speaker 1: not nearly as exciting, and so it's just really difficult. 209 00:10:58,240 --> 00:11:01,880 Speaker 1: It we're constantly over steering as a society. Plus, you 210 00:11:01,920 --> 00:11:04,760 Speaker 1: create a new generation every generation, and the new generation 211 00:11:04,840 --> 00:11:07,160 Speaker 1: grows up without crime, and they don't understand what's the 212 00:11:07,160 --> 00:11:09,640 Speaker 1: big deal because they didn't didn't live in a time 213 00:11:09,640 --> 00:11:12,319 Speaker 1: where people getting wapped on the head walking down the street. 214 00:11:12,800 --> 00:11:16,559 Speaker 1: And plus the lefty please of compassion and healing and 215 00:11:16,600 --> 00:11:19,640 Speaker 1: the rest of it really appeal to the young heart. Uh. 216 00:11:19,679 --> 00:11:21,760 Speaker 1: You know, as Churchill said, if you're twenty and not 217 00:11:21,840 --> 00:11:24,240 Speaker 1: a liberal, you have no heart. Um. I thought his 218 00:11:24,360 --> 00:11:28,080 Speaker 1: stuff on Sweet Alice and you See Us was just 219 00:11:28,160 --> 00:11:31,520 Speaker 1: a great point. And how you know, the cops have 220 00:11:31,600 --> 00:11:33,960 Speaker 1: to be in the communities. The communities have to trust 221 00:11:33,960 --> 00:11:36,280 Speaker 1: the cops, and there's a lot of healing that has 222 00:11:36,320 --> 00:11:38,480 Speaker 1: to take place, and it's a lot of work, and 223 00:11:38,520 --> 00:11:39,960 Speaker 1: you know, I would also point out that if you 224 00:11:40,080 --> 00:11:43,480 Speaker 1: defund the police, you're gonna cut training, and you're gonna 225 00:11:43,480 --> 00:11:45,120 Speaker 1: cut initiatives like that.