WEBVTT - The Girlfriends S3/E3: He Said, She Said 0:00:00.040 --> 0:00:02.640 Hey, girlfriend, it's Anna here giving you a quick heads 0:00:02.680 --> 0:00:05.320 up on what to expect in this episode. We're going 0:00:05.400 --> 0:00:07.280 to talk about the night of the murder a lot 0:00:07.520 --> 0:00:09.960 and in detail, and I want to warn you that 0:00:10.000 --> 0:00:13.640 there's going to be some mentions of domestic abuse, sexual assault, 0:00:13.960 --> 0:00:17.320 and suicide. But we'll also get the chance to dive 0:00:17.360 --> 0:00:20.440 into the weeds of the police investigation to learn more 0:00:20.440 --> 0:00:23.360 about the case against Kelly and the holes in it. 0:00:24.600 --> 0:00:26.720 If you feel impacted by some of the themes in 0:00:26.760 --> 0:00:29.680 this show, you can reach out to No More. There 0:00:29.680 --> 0:00:32.800 are domestic violence charity with a lot of great resources 0:00:32.800 --> 0:00:33.400 to help. 0:00:33.240 --> 0:00:34.600 You or your loved ones. 0:00:35.320 --> 0:00:38.080 You can search No More dot org and we've also 0:00:38.080 --> 0:00:41.800 put a link to their website in the episode description. Plus, 0:00:41.880 --> 0:00:44.360 as always, there'll be more than a few swear words 0:00:50.479 --> 0:00:54.840 for Kelly Harnett's brother, Ronnie. July seventh, twenty ten, was 0:00:54.880 --> 0:00:56.080 a totally normal day. 0:00:56.880 --> 0:00:59.640 I was on my way back from work and I 0:00:59.720 --> 0:01:02.880 had are you know how they in a union square 0:01:02.920 --> 0:01:05.160 and things like that they have the village Voice or whatever, 0:01:05.600 --> 0:01:06.959 so their newspaper. 0:01:07.480 --> 0:01:10.600 He picks it up and sits down, leaving through like 0:01:10.600 --> 0:01:14.520 he would any other time, and there printed in black 0:01:14.560 --> 0:01:18.280 and white is a headline that reads something like, please 0:01:18.400 --> 0:01:21.520 arrest two individuals after a murder. 0:01:21.440 --> 0:01:22.679 In a story of Queens. 0:01:24.360 --> 0:01:26.680 I was looking at people next to me. I said, 0:01:26.720 --> 0:01:30.960 you believe this in our neighborhood? And I showed them 0:01:30.959 --> 0:01:32.880 and they looked at it and they just shook their heads. 0:01:32.880 --> 0:01:35.240 They were like, what's this world coming to? 0:01:36.680 --> 0:01:39.160 Ronnie doesn't think any more of it other than what 0:01:39.240 --> 0:01:41.280 a shame it is that the place he once knew 0:01:41.400 --> 0:01:44.480 as a safe family neighborhood seems to be going to 0:01:44.560 --> 0:01:48.520 the dogs. 0:01:49.760 --> 0:01:50.520 So I go home. 0:01:51.720 --> 0:01:53.800 My mother's like, yeah, you might want to sit down. 0:01:56.880 --> 0:01:58.560 I was like, am I just telling me what's going on? 0:02:00.640 --> 0:02:03.840 And I never a billion years did crossed my mind 0:02:03.880 --> 0:02:08.800 what I read? You know. So she's like, Kelly, she 0:02:08.880 --> 0:02:15.400 got arrested, and I said, for what she said, for murder, 0:02:19.320 --> 0:02:24.639 shocking is an understatement. I started getting dizzy. I started 0:02:24.639 --> 0:02:28.840 seeing stars and I was like, WHOA. But I knew, 0:02:29.400 --> 0:02:32.440 I said, I know my sister, she didn't do this. 0:02:34.480 --> 0:02:35.560 I know she didn't do it. 0:02:39.760 --> 0:02:44.360 I'm Annisonfield and from the teams at novel and iHeart Podcasts, 0:02:44.840 --> 0:03:10.840 this is the girlfriend's jailhouse lawyer. Yes, episode three, he 0:03:11.000 --> 0:03:26.040 said she said. It's around four am on July seventh, 0:03:26.120 --> 0:03:29.280 twenty ten, when Kelly Hannette first arrives at the one 0:03:29.400 --> 0:03:35.240 hundred and fourteenth Precinct. She's immediately processed as a suspect 0:03:35.480 --> 0:03:37.840 in the murder of Reuben Angel Vargas. 0:03:38.520 --> 0:03:41.560 They took all of my clothes from me, including my 0:03:41.720 --> 0:03:45.800 bride under her. They put me in a white paper suit. 0:03:48.240 --> 0:03:50.280 Kelly can't believe what's happening to her. 0:03:51.080 --> 0:03:54.320 She's just witnessed her boyfriend Tommy Donovan kill a man 0:03:54.480 --> 0:03:57.480 right in front of her before threatening that she would 0:03:57.520 --> 0:04:00.839 be next, but no one seems to be treating her 0:04:01.040 --> 0:04:01.760 like the victim. 0:04:01.880 --> 0:04:02.320 She is. 0:04:05.480 --> 0:04:06.680 Sitting in her cell. 0:04:06.960 --> 0:04:10.560 Feeling like the world is against her. Kelly decides to 0:04:10.560 --> 0:04:15.080 do something reckless, something that will warp and color every 0:04:15.160 --> 0:04:21.520 memory she tells me from this time. Somehow she's managed 0:04:21.560 --> 0:04:24.359 to smuggle in a huge amount of xanax, and she 0:04:24.440 --> 0:04:25.800 knows she needs to get rid of them. 0:04:25.680 --> 0:04:27.279 Before they're discovered by the police. 0:04:28.200 --> 0:04:31.280 But she also just wants to escape this situation somehow, 0:04:32.120 --> 0:04:35.680 And right there in the palm of her hand, she 0:04:35.760 --> 0:04:36.599 sees a solution. 0:04:39.080 --> 0:04:41.719 Down the hair they go and there was a lot 0:04:43.200 --> 0:04:46.640 and I didn't care if it was a suicide attempt. 0:04:46.880 --> 0:04:48.320 Or what the hell it was. 0:04:48.680 --> 0:04:52.320 Whatever happens happens, because it sounds like my life just 0:04:52.400 --> 0:04:56.080 got ripped from under me because of something that I 0:04:56.120 --> 0:04:56.760 didn't even do. 0:04:57.240 --> 0:04:59.719 I was like, look if I die, I die. 0:05:02.040 --> 0:05:09.120 From there, things just get worse for Kelly. Not only 0:05:09.320 --> 0:05:12.880 is she now really high in police custody, but she's 0:05:12.920 --> 0:05:16.960 also withdrawing. She tells the police she needs her methodone. 0:05:17.520 --> 0:05:20.880 She's on that huge one hundred and seventy milligram daily dose, 0:05:21.360 --> 0:05:24.800 but she's been without it for days because Tommy wouldn't 0:05:24.880 --> 0:05:28.960 let her go to the clinic. Kelly's hoping now she's 0:05:29.000 --> 0:05:32.320 in official police custody that they'll give her what she needs, 0:05:33.279 --> 0:05:37.560 but they refuse. On top of this, Kelly suffers from 0:05:37.600 --> 0:05:41.680 what's called grand mal seizures, she says. She asks repeatedly 0:05:41.720 --> 0:05:45.720 for her seizure medication, which is in police possession, but 0:05:45.760 --> 0:05:47.520 they say they'll only give it to her if she 0:05:47.560 --> 0:05:53.800 writes a statement. She has multiple seizures while in custody. 0:05:56.880 --> 0:05:58.120 She also gets her period. 0:05:58.560 --> 0:06:01.480 She asks the cops for some sanitary but they refuse 0:06:01.560 --> 0:06:04.960 those two They leave her bleeding into her white paper 0:06:05.000 --> 0:06:09.120 suit it soaks right through and is visible to anyone 0:06:09.120 --> 0:06:12.720 who sees her. And because she hasn't got anything on underneath, 0:06:13.120 --> 0:06:15.440 every time she goes to the bathroom, she has to 0:06:15.480 --> 0:06:17.839 strip down completely naked. 0:06:18.480 --> 0:06:19.040 Kelly says. 0:06:19.040 --> 0:06:23.400 Male staff gather around to watch, making comments about her body. 0:06:24.200 --> 0:06:28.960 I'm bleeding everywhere, but you're talking about my breasts and 0:06:29.000 --> 0:06:31.080 calling your friends in because it's a free show. 0:06:33.480 --> 0:06:34.640 Discusting pigs. 0:06:34.640 --> 0:06:39.240 I have absolutely no no respect for them. I'm sorry, 0:06:39.320 --> 0:06:42.960 but they were disgusting to me. I didn't even fucking 0:06:42.960 --> 0:06:48.320 commit this crime. How dare you? How fucking dare you? 0:06:50.440 --> 0:06:52.800 It should be clear to anyone that Kelly is in 0:06:52.880 --> 0:06:56.080 no fit state to give a reliable account of what's happened, 0:06:57.000 --> 0:07:00.880 and yet four hours after her arrest, cops take down 0:07:00.960 --> 0:07:07.040 an oral statement. Here's a quick reminder of how Kelly 0:07:07.160 --> 0:07:08.640 described the knight of the murder. 0:07:08.920 --> 0:07:10.160 Back in episode one. 0:07:13.040 --> 0:07:16.320 Kelly and Tommy met Angel and they decided to drink 0:07:16.360 --> 0:07:19.560 together while Tommy went off to buy the three of 0:07:19.600 --> 0:07:25.480 them beers. Kelly says Angels sexually assaulted her. When Tommy returned, 0:07:25.640 --> 0:07:31.480 Kelly told him what happened. Tommy then attacked and choked Angel. 0:07:32.400 --> 0:07:35.440 Kelly tried to get him to stop, but Tommy pushed 0:07:35.440 --> 0:07:40.760 her away and threatened that she would be next. After that, 0:07:41.480 --> 0:07:44.640 Tommy forced Kelly to hand over her shoelace. He then 0:07:44.640 --> 0:07:51.240 attempted to use it to strangle Angel, but it snapped. Next, 0:07:51.600 --> 0:07:55.760 Kelly witnessed Tommy put his belt around Angel's neck and 0:07:55.880 --> 0:08:03.480 finally kill him. That's what Kelly said to me in 0:08:03.520 --> 0:08:06.400 twenty twenty four, but it's not what she told the 0:08:06.400 --> 0:08:08.200 police back in twenty ten. 0:08:09.000 --> 0:08:12.880 I was woken up frantically by my boyfriend Tommy Danovan, 0:08:13.520 --> 0:08:16.720 stating we got to get out of here now, and 0:08:16.760 --> 0:08:17.400 then they put in. 0:08:17.800 --> 0:08:21.120 Kelly is reading from her original oral statement, which was 0:08:21.160 --> 0:08:24.880 taken at around eight am on July seventh. In it, 0:08:25.200 --> 0:08:28.800 Kelly says that she didn't witness the crime at all. Instead, 0:08:29.040 --> 0:08:31.520 she's woken up by Tommy, who tells her that he'd 0:08:31.560 --> 0:08:34.160 seen a guy who'd stolen his shoes the previous day 0:08:34.559 --> 0:08:36.160 and choked him unconscious. 0:08:37.000 --> 0:08:40.440 He then tells her start packing your crap up. 0:08:41.240 --> 0:08:44.520 Kelly starts gathering her things, and while she's doing that, 0:08:44.800 --> 0:08:47.400 Kelly says, Tommy takes her shoelace out of her sneaker 0:08:47.760 --> 0:08:49.960 and takes it over to the guy who's on the ground. 0:08:50.880 --> 0:08:54.840 A male Hispanic wearing a dark collared shirt was lying 0:08:54.920 --> 0:08:57.880 down moving in that Tommy grabbed him from behind around 0:08:57.880 --> 0:09:01.280 the neck and choked him again for proximately ten seconds. 0:09:01.600 --> 0:09:04.920 Kelly states that Tommy told her to kick said mail 0:09:05.160 --> 0:09:09.240 Hispanic and that she didn't. Kelly states that Tommy let 0:09:09.440 --> 0:09:13.160 said male Hispanic go and he fell to the ground lifeless. 0:09:20.000 --> 0:09:23.040 You're doing okay, Yeah, it was just the part that 0:09:23.200 --> 0:09:26.680 started because you know, the beginning is what I told 0:09:26.679 --> 0:09:30.319 the detectives, because I was just afraid, you know, there 0:09:30.360 --> 0:09:33.120 was no truth to it. But the part that got 0:09:33.160 --> 0:09:36.800 me was when it became truthful that he had the 0:09:36.880 --> 0:09:38.559 mail and that he fell lifeless. 0:09:38.600 --> 0:09:40.160 That that gets me. 0:09:40.440 --> 0:09:43.480 Yeah, of course, you know, because no matter what he tried, 0:09:43.960 --> 0:09:46.520 meaning the sexual assault. 0:09:45.800 --> 0:09:46.840 That's still a life. 0:09:47.200 --> 0:09:50.840 At the end of the day, he's still someone's brother, 0:09:51.800 --> 0:09:54.600 he's someone's son, possibly father. 0:09:55.080 --> 0:09:55.760 You know, so. 0:09:57.559 --> 0:09:58.040 Terrible. 0:10:01.440 --> 0:10:03.760 In a written statement she gives about an hour or 0:10:03.800 --> 0:10:07.440 so later, at about nine thirty am, Kelly sounds like 0:10:07.480 --> 0:10:10.240 she's really grappling with the horrors of the previous night. 0:10:11.280 --> 0:10:15.559 It honestly does read like she's high in a disjointed 0:10:15.600 --> 0:10:18.480 stream of consciousness, where she veers from talking about her 0:10:18.559 --> 0:10:22.280 mum's back injury, to her college scholarships to how religious 0:10:22.280 --> 0:10:25.600 she is. Kelly writes about how putrid she feels about 0:10:25.640 --> 0:10:28.640 all of this, and how going down for Tommy's stupidity 0:10:28.720 --> 0:10:33.280 is such an awful feeling. I take all of that 0:10:33.320 --> 0:10:36.199 into account, and I really do feel for the Kelly 0:10:36.240 --> 0:10:39.280 of twenty ten. But I can't pretend that all the 0:10:39.320 --> 0:10:43.200 inconsistencies between the story Kelly told me and the story 0:10:43.200 --> 0:10:47.960 in these statements don't give me pause, especially this one 0:10:48.040 --> 0:10:51.560 detail she's never told me before that Tommy ordered her 0:10:51.600 --> 0:10:55.240 to kick Angel. In the statements from twenty ten, she 0:10:55.320 --> 0:10:58.040 says she didn't do it, so I don't really understand 0:10:58.120 --> 0:10:59.960 why she left it out when she told me her 0:11:00.120 --> 0:11:06.480 version years later. For the first time, I'm grappling with 0:11:06.520 --> 0:11:09.920 the possibility that Kelly isn't being fully open with me. 0:11:11.720 --> 0:11:14.360 We both have stories to tell here, but I do 0:11:14.440 --> 0:11:17.760 have this fear that they're not the same one. 0:11:20.960 --> 0:11:22.040 Before I can go. 0:11:22.400 --> 0:11:25.680 Any further, I need to understand more about what happened 0:11:25.720 --> 0:11:45.000 that night, this time from Tommy's perspective. Can I just 0:11:45.200 --> 0:11:47.520 read you this statement from Tommy? 0:11:47.760 --> 0:11:49.040 There's some stuff that's really horrible. 0:11:50.000 --> 0:11:53.040 I'm sack with my producer Jake in our midtown airbnb. 0:11:53.640 --> 0:11:57.200 Tommy Donovan's statement in front of us. It's one of 0:11:57.200 --> 0:12:00.520 a few that he gave that day. One is an 0:12:00.600 --> 0:12:04.000 oral statement taken according to the police documents, at around 0:12:04.000 --> 0:12:07.520 four thirty pm on July seventh, the day of the murder. 0:12:08.360 --> 0:12:10.240 It looks like it was typed up the next day 0:12:10.600 --> 0:12:14.800 on the eighth. With all of this confusion swirling around 0:12:14.800 --> 0:12:17.120 in my mind, I want to look at what Tommy 0:12:17.160 --> 0:12:19.720 had to say about what happened in the part that night. 0:12:21.120 --> 0:12:23.840 Believe me when I say that I am not predisposed 0:12:23.880 --> 0:12:27.320 to trust this man, but I'm working with what I've got, 0:12:28.160 --> 0:12:31.240 and what immediately stands out to me is the weird 0:12:31.360 --> 0:12:34.120 and colorful context Tommy seems to add to that night 0:12:34.160 --> 0:12:37.120 in the park. So this is obviously written from the 0:12:37.160 --> 0:12:41.960 perspective of the cop noting it down. Mister Donovan informed 0:12:41.960 --> 0:12:44.040 me that over the past few nights they had had 0:12:44.080 --> 0:12:47.360 problems with perverse trying to watch them having sex, and 0:12:47.400 --> 0:12:53.400 that they had even named them nightcrawlers. Yeah, mister Donovan. 0:12:53.960 --> 0:12:56.160 It goes on to talk about how Tommy and Kelly 0:12:56.240 --> 0:12:59.760 were attempting to fall around on a makeshift bed under 0:12:59.760 --> 0:13:03.640 health skatebridge. When Kelly noticed one of these night crawlers, 0:13:04.600 --> 0:13:07.480 she stormed up and slapped him around the face, which 0:13:07.520 --> 0:13:10.800 then prompted Tommy to chase him seventy feet across the park. 0:13:12.000 --> 0:13:14.720 On the way back, he spotted a Hispanic man sitting 0:13:14.720 --> 0:13:17.720 on a park bench, who said, that's not right that 0:13:17.720 --> 0:13:19.959 they try to watch you sit and have a beer. 0:13:20.640 --> 0:13:22.960 So can we just stop there for a minute because 0:13:23.120 --> 0:13:24.679 it feels very made up. 0:13:24.840 --> 0:13:27.720 Yeah, that's like somebody trying to write like a bad 0:13:27.800 --> 0:13:30.200 script of what this kind of moment could be like. 0:13:30.600 --> 0:13:32.200 And I'm like really trying to keep in mind that 0:13:32.240 --> 0:13:35.880 this is what he's saying, hours after all this just happened. 0:13:36.120 --> 0:13:38.920 Yeah, I think Kelly also told me about how she 0:13:38.960 --> 0:13:42.679 had to translate between Tommy and Angel, who spoke Spanish, 0:13:42.920 --> 0:13:47.400 but there's no language barrier problem in this retellinger. Mister 0:13:47.440 --> 0:13:50.240 Donovan states that he accepted the man's offer and took 0:13:50.280 --> 0:13:53.280 a Morello beer. Kelly then walked over and the man 0:13:53.320 --> 0:13:56.319 offered her a beer as well, which he accepted. Mister 0:13:56.320 --> 0:13:58.760 Donovan informed me that the three of them had a 0:13:58.760 --> 0:14:02.120 beer or two each while discussing different types of beers 0:14:02.160 --> 0:14:05.080 and agreeing on how Morello is much better than Corona. 0:14:07.040 --> 0:14:08.480 I don't have a lot to say about that, but 0:14:08.520 --> 0:14:09.000 it's weird. 0:14:10.880 --> 0:14:12.559 The only other thing I was thinking is like, it's 0:14:12.600 --> 0:14:14.400 really hard for me to wrap my mind around whether 0:14:14.920 --> 0:14:17.280 the fact that there is so much detail makes it 0:14:17.559 --> 0:14:19.160 more or less plausible. 0:14:19.880 --> 0:14:22.600 Mister Donovan further states that the man they had just 0:14:22.680 --> 0:14:25.600 met introduced himself as Angel and was now asking him 0:14:25.640 --> 0:14:27.720 to run to the bodega and buy some more beer, 0:14:28.000 --> 0:14:30.600 and had stated, don't worry about it, I have money 0:14:30.640 --> 0:14:33.360 and you can take my bike. Mister Donovan states that 0:14:33.400 --> 0:14:35.680 he jumped on Angel's bike and quickly rode up to 0:14:35.720 --> 0:14:38.680 the bodega, where he purchased six Loco beers. 0:14:39.080 --> 0:14:40.320 So that's where the loko comes in. 0:14:41.120 --> 0:14:43.600 He then quickly rode by Tommy Stateman then says that 0:14:43.640 --> 0:14:46.360 when he returned, Kelly and Angel were in the same 0:14:46.440 --> 0:14:47.560 spot he had left the men. 0:14:48.280 --> 0:14:50.080 He says he asked Kelly if she was okay. 0:14:50.720 --> 0:14:53.000 She stated that she was fine, and they went on 0:14:53.040 --> 0:14:55.800 to drink the beers they bought while chatting about various topics. 0:14:56.400 --> 0:14:59.720 Mister Donovan states that after a while, according to Tommy's statement, 0:15:00.080 --> 0:15:02.440 he and Kelly decided they wanted to get back to 0:15:02.520 --> 0:15:06.280 falling around under the bridge, but Angel wouldn't leave them alone. 0:15:06.880 --> 0:15:09.400 He's begging them not to go and offering to buy 0:15:09.400 --> 0:15:13.520 more drinks and food, eventually following them to their makeshift bed. 0:15:14.320 --> 0:15:17.280 So Tommy told Kelly to pretend she was sleeping while 0:15:17.280 --> 0:15:20.880 he went to pee on the woodchip pile nearby. While 0:15:20.920 --> 0:15:23.880 he was peeing, he heard Kelly's voice and she sounded upset. 0:15:24.280 --> 0:15:27.200 He stopped peeing in midstream and walked back over to Kelly. 0:15:27.920 --> 0:15:30.680 Once there, Kelly informed him that Angel had just offered 0:15:30.680 --> 0:15:33.160 her money for sex, and he had stated to her, 0:15:33.280 --> 0:15:33.760 I want to. 0:15:33.720 --> 0:15:35.400 Lick your pussy. I'm good at it. 0:15:36.160 --> 0:15:38.680 Kelly further stated that Angel had said to her, I 0:15:38.720 --> 0:15:40.920 have money and a job. I can take care of you. 0:15:41.440 --> 0:15:44.080 Kelly informed him that Angel had just grabbed her crotch 0:15:44.200 --> 0:15:47.560 and was visibly upset, just a warning that. The next 0:15:47.600 --> 0:15:53.320 section talks about the murder itself. Mister Donovan states that 0:15:53.360 --> 0:15:56.120 he became very angry, walked over to him, and pushed 0:15:56.160 --> 0:15:58.960 him the two of them. The statement then goes on 0:15:59.040 --> 0:16:02.200 to say that tom and Angel started wrestling on the 0:16:02.240 --> 0:16:08.200 ground throwing and not landing punches. Eventually, Tommy gets Angel 0:16:08.320 --> 0:16:11.680 into a chokehold with his right arm, but it wasn't working. 0:16:14.280 --> 0:16:17.280 It doesn't specify where Kelly is, but it must be 0:16:17.360 --> 0:16:20.280 right next to them, as it then says, Tommy tells 0:16:20.360 --> 0:16:25.040 Kelly to kick Angel, then to kick him harder, which 0:16:25.080 --> 0:16:28.560 it says she does numerous times in the groin. 0:16:30.000 --> 0:16:31.640 This is where it gets kind of crazy. 0:16:32.360 --> 0:16:35.240 Mister Donovan further stated that he then told Kelly to 0:16:35.280 --> 0:16:38.520 give him her shoe string. He stated that she removed 0:16:38.520 --> 0:16:40.920 her shoe string from her shoe and wrapped it around 0:16:40.960 --> 0:16:44.560 his neck, pulling it tight and handing it to him. 0:16:45.120 --> 0:16:48.080 He then choked him with it until he became limp 0:16:52.440 --> 0:16:55.560 Once Angel was unconscious, and again this is coming from 0:16:55.600 --> 0:16:59.360 Tommy's typed up oral statement, Tommy told Kelly that they 0:16:59.400 --> 0:17:01.760 needed to get the hell out of there and started 0:17:01.800 --> 0:17:05.200 gathering up his things. Then he walked away, and when 0:17:05.240 --> 0:17:07.520 he looked back, he saw that Kelly was on top 0:17:07.560 --> 0:17:12.760 of Angel, strangling him to death. He ran over and 0:17:12.840 --> 0:17:15.160 yelled at her to go, and on their way out 0:17:15.200 --> 0:17:16.760 of the park, Donovan. 0:17:16.359 --> 0:17:19.520 Says he noticed Kelly took Angel's wallet and cash. 0:17:20.400 --> 0:17:22.440 Mister Donovan stated that he did not want to get 0:17:22.520 --> 0:17:27.000 arrested for robbery. Really small concern there, so he grabbed 0:17:27.000 --> 0:17:29.040 the wallet from her, threw it on the rocks, and 0:17:29.040 --> 0:17:32.679 put the money in his pocket. They both then crossed 0:17:32.680 --> 0:17:35.240 the street towards the water, where they were immediately stopped 0:17:35.320 --> 0:17:37.520 by the police, resulting in them getting arrested. 0:17:40.520 --> 0:17:40.879 Wow. 0:17:49.080 --> 0:17:53.040 Okay, let's digest all of that properly, because it was 0:17:53.600 --> 0:17:58.720 a lot. The inconsistencies between Kelly and Tommy's twenty ten 0:17:58.760 --> 0:18:03.560 statements ranged from from minor to glaring. Both Tommy and 0:18:03.640 --> 0:18:07.679 Kelly's statements mentioned the shoelace, although he says she handed 0:18:07.680 --> 0:18:11.080 it over and she says he took it from her, 0:18:11.640 --> 0:18:14.720 and both of them mentioned Tommy telling Kelly to kick Angel, 0:18:15.280 --> 0:18:18.359 although they again differ on whether Kelly actually did or 0:18:18.400 --> 0:18:21.879 didn't do it. Kelly says she was woken by Tommy 0:18:21.880 --> 0:18:25.520 after he admitted choking out Angel, but Tommy says Kelly 0:18:25.600 --> 0:18:28.040 was not only awake for the attack, but that she 0:18:28.119 --> 0:18:31.960 physically put her own shoelace around Angel's neck, pulled it tight, 0:18:32.359 --> 0:18:36.399 and handed it to Tommy. Tommy also says that while 0:18:36.400 --> 0:18:39.880 he choked Angel, it was only to the point of unconsciousness. 0:18:40.280 --> 0:18:43.240 Then he walked away, and when he looked back, he 0:18:43.320 --> 0:18:46.600 saw that Kelly was on top of Angel, strangling him 0:18:46.600 --> 0:18:50.879 to death. And then there's the differences in Kelly's accounts, 0:18:51.119 --> 0:18:54.240 which I understand thinking about the mindset that twenty ten 0:18:54.320 --> 0:18:59.480 Kelly was in, traumatized, scared, not to mention high, I 0:18:59.520 --> 0:19:01.800 can tote get why she would lie to the police 0:19:01.800 --> 0:19:05.040 to protect herself, why she'd want to distance herself from 0:19:05.240 --> 0:19:12.119 terrible crime. But I'm also confused about what the truth is, sure, 0:19:12.800 --> 0:19:16.400 but also why Kelly isn't opening up to me. Could 0:19:16.480 --> 0:19:20.560 I ask you some questions about Donovan's statement. 0:19:21.000 --> 0:19:23.120 Sure, I've been reading through it. 0:19:24.680 --> 0:19:25.520 There are a couple of. 0:19:25.400 --> 0:19:27.119 Things that stood out to me that seemed to be 0:19:27.200 --> 0:19:30.920 kind of parallels. Some stuff that came up in your 0:19:31.040 --> 0:19:34.800 original statement that seemed to match and haven't come up 0:19:34.800 --> 0:19:40.879 in our previous conversations, one of them being he asked 0:19:40.920 --> 0:19:47.000 you to kick Ruben, Ruben being Reuben Angel Vargas the victim, 0:19:47.800 --> 0:19:52.840 and then in his original statement you do that. In 0:19:52.880 --> 0:19:57.359 your original statement, you also say that he asked you 0:19:57.440 --> 0:19:59.640 to but you didn't do it. And then since we've 0:19:59.640 --> 0:20:02.000 spoken and that hasn't been any mention of the kicking, 0:20:02.040 --> 0:20:03.800 and so I just want to figure. 0:20:03.440 --> 0:20:06.240 Out, Oh, okay, clarification, Yeah, okay. 0:20:06.520 --> 0:20:11.680 So I remember the detective kept saying to me now 0:20:11.800 --> 0:20:14.399 just right, that he told you to kick the victim, 0:20:14.440 --> 0:20:15.160 and that you did. 0:20:16.119 --> 0:20:20.080 Like nobody kicked him, not even my co defendant. What 0:20:20.320 --> 0:20:25.240 really happened. When I was speaking to the Spanish man. 0:20:25.200 --> 0:20:28.080 The decendent, he told both of us that he got 0:20:28.080 --> 0:20:30.359 thrown out of the house because he was drinking too 0:20:30.440 --> 0:20:32.280 much and that his brother beat him up and threw 0:20:32.320 --> 0:20:32.640 him out. 0:20:33.520 --> 0:20:34.680 So when you beat. 0:20:34.480 --> 0:20:36.800 Someone up, clearly there's going to be bruising. 0:20:37.640 --> 0:20:41.720 So they wanted to implicate me, just for me to 0:20:41.760 --> 0:20:47.240 take the blame on doing something, and he yelled at 0:20:47.280 --> 0:20:52.119 me to the point where I wrote the words just 0:20:52.200 --> 0:20:55.760 for them to stop. I remember thinking, this is how 0:20:55.840 --> 0:20:57.800 confessions come about. 0:20:58.520 --> 0:21:00.880 I think Kelly means false confessions here. 0:21:01.640 --> 0:21:04.600 The fact that I'm writing he told me to kick him. 0:21:04.840 --> 0:21:07.359 That was a lie. That was a complete lie. 0:21:07.800 --> 0:21:09.840 But I felt like since the word kick is in there, 0:21:09.880 --> 0:21:12.800 they'll lay off a little bit, and they did. 0:21:13.640 --> 0:21:16.960 The reason I ask about the kicking is because to me, 0:21:17.960 --> 0:21:23.840 if somebody did what is said in Tommy's statement, kicking 0:21:23.840 --> 0:21:27.840 someone to get them away is not at all a 0:21:27.880 --> 0:21:30.760 bad things. And so I'm just saying like, if that 0:21:30.960 --> 0:21:33.080 had happened, No, no, I would be not share the 0:21:33.160 --> 0:21:34.320 fuck enough, you. 0:21:34.200 --> 0:21:36.720 Know, No, No, I get it. This is what I'm 0:21:36.720 --> 0:21:39.880 trying to say. If I kicked him one hundred percent, 0:21:40.040 --> 0:21:43.439 I would tell you I kicked him. But if I 0:21:43.440 --> 0:21:45.680 didn't kick him, I didn't kick him. I almost wish 0:21:45.800 --> 0:21:47.119 I kicked him at this point. 0:21:47.320 --> 0:21:49.360 I didn't kick him. You know why, I was too 0:21:49.480 --> 0:21:52.920 fucking scared to kick him. I was not going back there. 0:21:53.119 --> 0:21:55.919 You have to think of the domestic violence aspect and 0:21:56.000 --> 0:22:00.080 not the truth finding aspect. The domestic violence aspect of 0:22:00.119 --> 0:22:02.960 the matter is that I was afraid of Tommy. 0:22:03.640 --> 0:22:05.040 You think I'm gonna. 0:22:04.760 --> 0:22:07.160 Be busy trying to kick him in when I'm trying 0:22:07.200 --> 0:22:09.080 to figure out how the hell am I going to 0:22:09.119 --> 0:22:10.040 get out of this one? 0:22:10.119 --> 0:22:11.240 Well, I live to see. 0:22:11.080 --> 0:22:13.520 The next minute, of course. No, I'm not gonna worry 0:22:13.520 --> 0:22:15.080 about going to kick someone. 0:22:15.200 --> 0:22:18.639 I adopted what they stated just to write it, so 0:22:18.720 --> 0:22:23.160 they leave me the fuck alone. 0:22:23.400 --> 0:22:25.199 So I'm going to be really honest here about a 0:22:25.200 --> 0:22:29.240 couple of things. Number one is that I'm not proud 0:22:29.240 --> 0:22:31.720 of the take that you just heard, then I nearly 0:22:31.720 --> 0:22:36.080 didn't include it. Number two is that I feel so 0:22:36.280 --> 0:22:42.800 fucking out of my depth right now. In all the 0:22:42.840 --> 0:22:46.240 years I've spent making this show, speaking to countless survivors 0:22:46.280 --> 0:22:50.359 of domestic and gendered violence, I've never upset someone like that. 0:22:51.480 --> 0:22:54.919 But then I've never dealt with someone as complicated as Kelly, 0:22:55.960 --> 0:22:59.840 and I have absolutely no idea where to go from here. 0:23:15.640 --> 0:23:18.120 I spend a lot of time running back that conversation 0:23:18.320 --> 0:23:21.359 between me and Kelly in my head, when she spoke 0:23:21.359 --> 0:23:23.680 about hoping that the police would leave her the fuck alone. 0:23:24.400 --> 0:23:26.399 I can't help but feel like she was also talking 0:23:26.440 --> 0:23:31.560 to me, which feels like shit. The last thing I 0:23:31.560 --> 0:23:35.880 want Kelly to feel is attacked or judged, because for me, 0:23:36.080 --> 0:23:39.200 so much of this job of interviewing people, of getting 0:23:39.240 --> 0:23:42.840 them to share their experiences with me, it's a relationship 0:23:43.320 --> 0:23:47.359 one based around mutual respects and trust, one that I 0:23:47.400 --> 0:23:51.360 honestly tend to find pretty easy to build. I'm struggling 0:23:51.400 --> 0:23:57.240 to build that mutual trust with Kelly. Sometimes I feel 0:23:57.240 --> 0:23:59.360 like she's telling me exactly what I want to hear, 0:24:00.240 --> 0:24:02.280 and in other times I can feel like she's keeping 0:24:02.280 --> 0:24:06.439 me at arm's length. I'm going to go out on 0:24:06.440 --> 0:24:08.520 a limb here and say that I do not in 0:24:08.600 --> 0:24:11.159 any way believe the part of Tommy's statement where he 0:24:11.200 --> 0:24:15.200 says Kelly physically strangled Angel. I think this was nothing 0:24:15.200 --> 0:24:17.320 more than him trying to shift some of the blame 0:24:17.520 --> 0:24:21.679 for his crime. But I can't ignore the fact that 0:24:21.760 --> 0:24:26.080