WEBVTT - Encore: S03 Ep. 13 - Melanie’s Difficult Mother 0:00:03.960 --> 0:00:06.520 I'm Laurie Gottlieb. I'm the author of Maybe You Should 0:00:06.559 --> 0:00:09.280 Talk to Someone, and I write the Dear Therapist advice 0:00:09.320 --> 0:00:10.440 column for the Atlantic. 0:00:10.600 --> 0:00:13.760 And I'm Guy Wench. I'm the author of Emotional First Aid, 0:00:14.120 --> 0:00:16.319 and I write the Dear Guy advice column for Ted. 0:00:16.680 --> 0:00:18.480 And this is Dear Therapists. 0:00:18.920 --> 0:00:21.360 Each week we invite you into a real session where 0:00:21.360 --> 0:00:24.120 we help people confront their biggest problems and then give 0:00:24.160 --> 0:00:26.960 them actionable advice and hear about the changes they've made 0:00:27.000 --> 0:00:27.720 in their lives. 0:00:28.040 --> 0:00:32.400 So sit back and welcome to today's session. This week, 0:00:32.600 --> 0:00:35.199 a woman with a difficult mother wonders if there's a 0:00:35.200 --> 0:00:38.160 way to interact with her that won't cause so much pain. 0:00:38.720 --> 0:00:41.839 She was saying that she'd always tried to be a 0:00:41.920 --> 0:00:45.559 good mother. I felt they poked, She'd kept poking at it. 0:00:46.640 --> 0:00:51.519 She would talk quite defensively about why she couldn't have 0:00:51.640 --> 0:00:54.120 done them better, what was going on for her at 0:00:54.160 --> 0:00:54.560 the time. 0:00:55.280 --> 0:00:59.040 First, a quick note, Dear Therapist is for informational purposes only. 0:00:59.440 --> 0:01:02.600 It does not constitute medical or psychological advice, and is 0:01:02.640 --> 0:01:06.200 not a substitute for professional health care advice, diagnosis, or treatment. 0:01:06.640 --> 0:01:09.160 By submitting a letter, you are agreeing to let iHeartMedia 0:01:09.280 --> 0:01:11.400 use it in part orn ful, and we may edit 0:01:11.400 --> 0:01:14.040 it for length and clarity. In the sessions you'll hear. 0:01:14.440 --> 0:01:17.640 All names have been changed for the privacy of our guests. 0:01:19.640 --> 0:01:23.080 Hey, Lourie, Hi guy. So what do we have in 0:01:23.120 --> 0:01:24.119 our mailbooks today? 0:01:24.520 --> 0:01:26.600 Today we have a letter from a woman who has 0:01:26.680 --> 0:01:29.720 a difficult relationship with her mother, and it goes like this, 0:01:30.680 --> 0:01:34.080 Dear therapists, I am writing for help with my relationship 0:01:34.080 --> 0:01:36.440 with my mother. Since I stopped drinking a couple of 0:01:36.480 --> 0:01:38.840 years ago, I have felt a lot of resentment when 0:01:38.840 --> 0:01:41.399 I'm around her. This came as a surprise to me. 0:01:41.920 --> 0:01:44.280 I want a relationship with her, but I've come to 0:01:44.319 --> 0:01:46.600 think that the low self esteem I struggled with throughout 0:01:46.640 --> 0:01:49.560 my twenties, which led to a pattern of numbing with alcohol, 0:01:49.920 --> 0:01:53.160 was the result of having two emotionally neglectful parents. A 0:01:53.200 --> 0:01:56.640 depressed and alcoholic father who was often absent, and a 0:01:56.640 --> 0:02:00.360 physically present but narcissistic mother. I learned that my feelings 0:02:00.400 --> 0:02:03.720 didn't matter, and I've carried that into adult life. When 0:02:03.760 --> 0:02:05.560 I am around my mother, I feel like she takes 0:02:05.640 --> 0:02:08.520 up all of this space and oxygen. What hurts most 0:02:08.600 --> 0:02:11.200 is that she rarely asked me anything about myself except 0:02:11.240 --> 0:02:14.040 one or two token questions, and she changed the subject 0:02:14.080 --> 0:02:17.280 back to her rapidly. She is also very defensive about 0:02:17.320 --> 0:02:20.120 any feedback or even the most minor hint of criticism. 0:02:20.919 --> 0:02:23.520 Things became very strained between us about two years ago 0:02:23.720 --> 0:02:26.800 when I accidentally opened a can of worms. My mom 0:02:26.840 --> 0:02:29.799 for many years has worried obsessively about my older sister, 0:02:30.040 --> 0:02:33.720 who has various emotional difficulties and has genuinely struggled with life. 0:02:34.040 --> 0:02:36.840 Not that I haven't, but my mom has a narrative 0:02:36.880 --> 0:02:39.520 of me being quote the strong one, and she says 0:02:39.520 --> 0:02:43.240 this to me directly, things like Claire struggles, but You've 0:02:43.240 --> 0:02:46.840 always been much more resilient. I find this incredibly painful 0:02:46.880 --> 0:02:49.280 because this isn't how I see myself, and because I 0:02:49.320 --> 0:02:51.560 feel she's used this narrative as a reason not to 0:02:51.560 --> 0:02:54.560 give me support. This included the period of my late 0:02:54.600 --> 0:02:57.360 teens when I was self medicating with party drugs, skipping 0:02:57.360 --> 0:03:00.560 college due to lack of motivation, and clearly developed an 0:03:00.560 --> 0:03:03.120 eating disorder. But I can't remember any adult in my 0:03:03.160 --> 0:03:06.280 family ever asking if I was okay. I remember my 0:03:06.360 --> 0:03:08.720 mom yelling at me for skipping college, and when she 0:03:08.760 --> 0:03:11.360 found my antidepressant, she said, you don't need to be 0:03:11.400 --> 0:03:14.600 on those. Finally, a couple of years ago, I ended 0:03:14.680 --> 0:03:16.640 up telling her that I didn't like her, casting me 0:03:16.680 --> 0:03:19.320 as the resilient one, and she got very defensive and 0:03:19.360 --> 0:03:22.040 then went to Pieces in the end collapsing on the 0:03:22.040 --> 0:03:24.799 beach and saying she thought we loved each other again. 0:03:24.880 --> 0:03:27.480 It seemed to be about her. I took a break 0:03:27.480 --> 0:03:29.440 from her for a few months, but when she visited 0:03:29.480 --> 0:03:32.640 me months later, we segued back into this conversation and 0:03:32.680 --> 0:03:35.400 it became very heated. She went to Pieces again and 0:03:35.440 --> 0:03:38.320 I ended up looking after her. I'm trying to see 0:03:38.320 --> 0:03:40.320 the best in my mother, but I grapple with questions 0:03:40.360 --> 0:03:42.920 of whether I should ever ask her to do anything differently. 0:03:43.360 --> 0:03:45.960 Is there any point given her history of defensiveness and 0:03:46.000 --> 0:03:50.040 poor listening and communication skills. I would really appreciate your advice. 0:03:50.200 --> 0:03:52.480 I feel so stuck Melanie. 0:03:53.800 --> 0:03:56.880 Well, I really feel for Melanie because it sounds like 0:03:57.000 --> 0:03:59.400 she's in a lot of pain about this relationship and 0:03:59.400 --> 0:04:03.760 obviously has been since her childhood, and from what she's describing, 0:04:03.840 --> 0:04:07.920 her mother certainly has limitations, and it sounds like Melanie 0:04:08.080 --> 0:04:11.120 is having a hard time accepting what those are and 0:04:11.240 --> 0:04:14.800 navigating around them. She I think, keeps hoping her mother 0:04:14.840 --> 0:04:16.920 will show up for her in a way her mother 0:04:17.080 --> 0:04:20.000 never really has, and so she's really stuck in this 0:04:20.120 --> 0:04:22.760 limbo of wanting a relationship with her mom that she 0:04:22.880 --> 0:04:26.200 can't have and at the same time perhaps having trouble 0:04:26.240 --> 0:04:30.800 exploring what relationship with her mother she could have. And 0:04:30.920 --> 0:04:32.200 that's where she's stuck right now. 0:04:32.520 --> 0:04:34.920 Yeah, we see this so much where people come in 0:04:35.160 --> 0:04:40.120 and they're really in pain over the relationships with one 0:04:40.279 --> 0:04:44.880 or both parents and they want to have a relationship 0:04:44.960 --> 0:04:48.080 with that parent. But what they're really not clear on 0:04:48.279 --> 0:04:51.440 is do I want a relationship with this parent given 0:04:51.480 --> 0:04:55.239 this parent's limitations and what would that look like versus 0:04:55.279 --> 0:04:59.000 still having that childhood fantasy of I want a relationship 0:04:59.040 --> 0:05:01.640 with the kind of parent that I deserve to have. 0:05:02.600 --> 0:05:05.440 So let's go talk to her and learn more about 0:05:05.880 --> 0:05:12.000 this relationship. Absolutely, you're listening to Dear Therapists for my 0:05:12.080 --> 0:05:21.599 Heart Radio. We'll be back after a short break. 0:05:22.520 --> 0:05:25.760 I'm Laurie Gottlieb and I'm Guy Wench and this is 0:05:25.839 --> 0:05:27.120 Dear Therapist. 0:05:29.400 --> 0:05:33.200 Hi Melanie, Hi there, thank you for coming on the show. 0:05:33.680 --> 0:05:34.680 Thank you for having me. 0:05:35.200 --> 0:05:37.960 You're very welcome. We wanted to start with this question. 0:05:38.400 --> 0:05:40.320 Tell us a little bit about what it was like 0:05:40.400 --> 0:05:41.760 growing up with your mum. 0:05:42.600 --> 0:05:46.120 I would say that we were loved as kids, me 0:05:46.120 --> 0:05:50.320 and my sister. You know, we did nice activities. We 0:05:50.360 --> 0:05:53.680 saw friends for we went on outings. We had all 0:05:53.720 --> 0:05:57.760 our sort of practical needs met. They had Christmas presents, 0:05:57.800 --> 0:06:02.360 we had some holidays. Things were quite good in ways. 0:06:02.839 --> 0:06:08.359 But looking back, I feel like my mum has never 0:06:08.600 --> 0:06:12.920 really been sort of present mentally, and even now I 0:06:12.960 --> 0:06:17.760 never feel like she's really fully present with me. I 0:06:17.839 --> 0:06:26.040 also feel like we didn't get enough validation of our emotions. 0:06:26.920 --> 0:06:29.640 So I feel like what I was really missing was 0:06:29.680 --> 0:06:36.120 that kind of calm, attentive presence and like the nourishing 0:06:36.240 --> 0:06:38.600 parental influence. 0:06:39.440 --> 0:06:41.800 Do you remember moments from your childhood in which that 0:06:42.279 --> 0:06:42.799 was absent. 0:06:45.080 --> 0:06:49.360 I can remember being really little, like five or six maybe, 0:06:50.080 --> 0:06:52.559 and my mum walking me home from school every day, 0:06:53.520 --> 0:06:56.400 and every day she'd ask what did you do at 0:06:56.440 --> 0:07:00.880 school today? And I remember that every day I'd say nothing. 0:07:01.640 --> 0:07:06.080 And I think this is strange to have that awareness 0:07:06.080 --> 0:07:08.120 of what was going on for me at such a 0:07:08.160 --> 0:07:10.880 young age, But I think what it was was like, 0:07:11.000 --> 0:07:13.679 I never really felt like she was interested. I felt 0:07:13.760 --> 0:07:18.600 it was a standard issue question, so I'd always say 0:07:18.640 --> 0:07:22.440 nothing because I didn't really feel like she was listening. 0:07:23.800 --> 0:07:26.280 Did you wish that she had asked something else? Or 0:07:26.360 --> 0:07:28.600 did you just feel like if I answered, she's not 0:07:28.640 --> 0:07:29.560 going to be paying attention. 0:07:30.440 --> 0:07:34.040 I think it was more the latter. As I've got older, 0:07:34.080 --> 0:07:39.640 I've definitely wanted her to ask different questions, and you know, 0:07:39.720 --> 0:07:43.360 the kinds of questions I would ask friends. For example, 0:07:44.600 --> 0:07:47.800 I wouldn't just say how was work and then move on. 0:07:48.440 --> 0:07:51.360 I'd say, you know, like, how was work he says 0:07:51.400 --> 0:07:53.320 you were having a rough time lately, or how is 0:07:53.360 --> 0:07:57.240 that new manager working out? So I've always felt like 0:07:57.320 --> 0:08:00.920 the questions are kind of standard issue. She doesn't really 0:08:00.960 --> 0:08:02.720 listened to what you say, and then she's kind of 0:08:02.800 --> 0:08:03.240 moved on. 0:08:04.920 --> 0:08:07.480 Where does she move to when she moves on? Is 0:08:07.520 --> 0:08:10.280 it about her? Is it about small talk? Where does 0:08:10.320 --> 0:08:10.560 she go? 0:08:13.000 --> 0:08:17.200 She often moves on to her. She'll bring things back 0:08:17.280 --> 0:08:22.080 to her own life, her own experience quite consistently. 0:08:23.160 --> 0:08:25.960 Do you have recollections from your adolescence of moments in 0:08:26.000 --> 0:08:30.440 which this dynamic happened? Where she wasn't quite present, or 0:08:30.520 --> 0:08:34.239 she seemed to be asking the question, but the substance 0:08:34.360 --> 0:08:34.800 was lacking. 0:08:34.840 --> 0:08:38.720 For you, I do there was a particularly difficult time 0:08:38.800 --> 0:08:42.760 in my late teens when my mental health was going downhill. 0:08:44.000 --> 0:08:49.439 She would kind of demand factual information from me, didn't 0:08:49.440 --> 0:08:53.240 really ask what's going on for you? Is everything okay 0:08:53.320 --> 0:08:58.440 for you? How are you feeling? I would be asked, 0:08:58.880 --> 0:09:01.439 why are you seeing that? You know, what kind of 0:09:01.520 --> 0:09:05.200 anxiety do you have? And oh? At that time, and 0:09:05.240 --> 0:09:08.400 it has other times felt like a sort of bombardment 0:09:08.480 --> 0:09:14.559 of questions as opposed to like I'm here, I'm listening, 0:09:15.800 --> 0:09:19.280 you know, asking more open questions of the kind I 0:09:19.280 --> 0:09:22.720 would like someone to do when I'm feeling fragile. 0:09:24.040 --> 0:09:26.000 I think that goes back to being five years old 0:09:26.040 --> 0:09:30.319 and leaving school, and instead of saying how are you, 0:09:30.720 --> 0:09:34.880 she said what did you do today? There's a very 0:09:34.920 --> 0:09:38.079 different questions, and that wouldn't be a big deal if 0:09:38.679 --> 0:09:40.720 she meant it in that way, but it sounds like 0:09:40.760 --> 0:09:42.440 she did not mean it in that way. She wasn't 0:09:42.480 --> 0:09:45.880 looking to really hear how you were. And I think 0:09:45.920 --> 0:09:48.719 that when you were struggling and you were trying to 0:09:48.760 --> 0:09:52.800 get help in your teens there were Again, wasn't that 0:09:52.920 --> 0:09:55.960 question of what's going on? Talk to me? I'm here. 0:09:56.360 --> 0:09:57.319 How can I help. 0:09:59.200 --> 0:10:01.600 As well? If you you were seeing a therapist and 0:10:01.640 --> 0:10:04.920 taking medication in your teens and your mother was against it, 0:10:04.960 --> 0:10:07.320 then how did you get hooked up with a therapist 0:10:07.400 --> 0:10:08.360 and a psychiatrist. 0:10:09.720 --> 0:10:15.160 I went to my doctor at how old? Seventeen? I 0:10:15.240 --> 0:10:19.040 went to the GP. I was referred to psychiatry. 0:10:19.520 --> 0:10:22.560 But Sora Melanie, usually at seventeen it goes through a parent. 0:10:23.080 --> 0:10:25.960 You just initiated this yourself. I think there's something wrong. 0:10:26.040 --> 0:10:27.920 I'm going to contact myp and not even tell my 0:10:27.960 --> 0:10:29.160 parents about it. 0:10:30.200 --> 0:10:35.280 I didn't. I didn't really feel I had an adult 0:10:35.440 --> 0:10:38.960 who would be there for me. I felt very alone 0:10:39.000 --> 0:10:42.480 with it, and I think I I was alone. 0:10:43.000 --> 0:10:46.240 You said that your father was largely absent. Can you 0:10:46.280 --> 0:10:48.880 tell us a little bit about him as well, so 0:10:48.920 --> 0:10:51.400 we understand the context in which you ended up going 0:10:51.400 --> 0:10:52.360 to the doctor alone. 0:10:54.240 --> 0:10:57.319 My parents divorced when I was twelve, and it was 0:10:57.440 --> 0:11:01.719 very messy and in the same town as us when 0:11:01.760 --> 0:11:04.480 I was seventeen, but I could go long periods without 0:11:04.520 --> 0:11:09.400 seeing him, and in the years running up to that age, 0:11:10.000 --> 0:11:13.360 and for some years after. He had long periods of 0:11:13.640 --> 0:11:17.760 serious alcoholism. He wasn't really there a lot of the time. 0:11:18.559 --> 0:11:20.959 Did you see that in the house before they divorced? 0:11:21.240 --> 0:11:24.040 Did you see him drinking and checking out? 0:11:24.120 --> 0:11:28.920 Yeah? Yeah. After my mum left him, he kind of 0:11:29.080 --> 0:11:33.280 deteriorated quite quickly. We were still living with him, but 0:11:33.440 --> 0:11:37.880 he was off work with depression. He was drinking a lot, 0:11:38.280 --> 0:11:39.920 and he was kind of leaning on me and my 0:11:40.000 --> 0:11:44.200 sister emotionally as like a twelve year old and fifteen 0:11:44.280 --> 0:11:47.439 year old, So that was very difficult. 0:11:47.880 --> 0:11:50.040 Was the reason that your mum left him because he 0:11:50.160 --> 0:11:52.800 was drinking and not doing anything about it. 0:11:53.920 --> 0:11:57.240 I think she left him because he was just not 0:11:57.600 --> 0:12:02.000 being a present partner, not pulling his weight around the house. 0:12:02.679 --> 0:12:06.400 And really they're just quite badly matched. That's quite obvious 0:12:06.480 --> 0:12:08.280 with twenty years of hindsight. 0:12:08.600 --> 0:12:11.920 How did you feel about them separating? You were twelve. 0:12:12.400 --> 0:12:13.600 Do you remember how they told you? 0:12:15.520 --> 0:12:18.440 My mum had told me she was going to leave 0:12:18.480 --> 0:12:20.760 a couple of years before she did, and then I 0:12:20.800 --> 0:12:23.880 think she tried to stick it out. I don't think 0:12:23.920 --> 0:12:28.440 I was that bothered by the separation itself. I think 0:12:28.480 --> 0:12:31.959 it was all the stuff around it. So how it 0:12:32.040 --> 0:12:34.640 was handled the fallout, I. 0:12:34.559 --> 0:12:36.880 Suppose what did the fallout look like? 0:12:38.400 --> 0:12:43.280 So my dad deteriorated and was drinking a lot and 0:12:43.360 --> 0:12:46.959 not looking after the house. He was spying on my mum. 0:12:47.120 --> 0:12:50.679 He had followed by a detective. At one point. There 0:12:50.720 --> 0:12:53.720 was a very weird situation. They were living next door 0:12:53.760 --> 0:12:57.800 to each other because my mum owned the house next door. 0:12:57.880 --> 0:13:03.600 She previously rented it out, and in the absence of 0:13:04.120 --> 0:13:06.520 many other options, she just sort of moved in there. 0:13:06.920 --> 0:13:10.160 I felt very kind of self conscious about this strange 0:13:10.200 --> 0:13:14.880 situation at home. My dad was a mess. We're probably 0:13:14.960 --> 0:13:18.400 exposed to a lot of stuff with him that we 0:13:18.400 --> 0:13:22.920 weren't capable of dealing with. It didn't really feel like 0:13:22.960 --> 0:13:26.120 there was anyone asking us how we were doing. 0:13:27.640 --> 0:13:29.760 You say you were exposed to things that you're not 0:13:29.800 --> 0:13:32.080 supposed to be exposed to. Can you give us an example? 0:13:34.000 --> 0:13:37.520 Just his sort of letting it all hang out emotionally. 0:13:38.559 --> 0:13:41.599 And I was dating someone new and he'd say, what 0:13:41.720 --> 0:13:44.840 hals he got that I haven't got, And he would 0:13:44.880 --> 0:13:48.120 say to me how lonely he was. And there was 0:13:48.160 --> 0:13:50.320 a time when he was saying to me, he was 0:13:51.160 --> 0:13:53.560 so lonely, and he really found it hard going to 0:13:53.600 --> 0:13:57.480 bed and being alone in bed, and I offered to 0:13:57.800 --> 0:14:00.800 stay in bed with him to ease his life, and 0:14:00.880 --> 0:14:02.880 I did, and I didn't really want to because I 0:14:02.920 --> 0:14:04.520 was twelve. I didn't want to share a bed with 0:14:04.559 --> 0:14:07.640 my dad, but you know, I wanted him to feel better. 0:14:09.160 --> 0:14:10.400 It was a horrible environment. 0:14:12.440 --> 0:14:14.400 Did you ever talk to your mom about what was 0:14:14.440 --> 0:14:17.839 going on with your dad? The things where he was 0:14:17.880 --> 0:14:21.120 asking you for company in ways that weren't appropriate, That 0:14:21.200 --> 0:14:24.920 he was telling you things about his personal struggles that 0:14:25.360 --> 0:14:26.480 weren't appropriate. 0:14:28.400 --> 0:14:30.160 I think I told hers some of it, and I 0:14:30.200 --> 0:14:34.000 think she actually directly observed some of it and was 0:14:34.080 --> 0:14:35.560 quite critical of that. 0:14:36.520 --> 0:14:39.760 But in terms of protecting you from all of this, 0:14:40.440 --> 0:14:43.720 can you remember at all what maybe even one of 0:14:43.720 --> 0:14:45.360 those conversations might have been like? 0:14:47.280 --> 0:14:51.800 No, do you recall how you felt at that time? 0:14:52.040 --> 0:14:54.480 Were you angry? Did you blame one or the other? 0:14:54.720 --> 0:14:58.720 Were you talking with friends with things that emotionally for you? 0:15:00.000 --> 0:15:04.960 I felt worried about my dad, and at times I 0:15:05.040 --> 0:15:08.840 was trying to be there for him, and at other 0:15:08.920 --> 0:15:12.640 times I just found it so horrendous. I didn't want 0:15:12.640 --> 0:15:14.480 to look at it. And then I would, you know, 0:15:14.680 --> 0:15:17.320 try and spend more time away from him, and I'd 0:15:17.360 --> 0:15:18.520 feel guilty about that. 0:15:19.360 --> 0:15:21.960 Where was your sister and all of this. You mentioned 0:15:21.960 --> 0:15:25.560 that she's three years older and that your mom does 0:15:25.640 --> 0:15:28.560 recognize that she struggled from the fallout of all of this. 0:15:29.480 --> 0:15:31.480 So what was going on between the two of you? 0:15:31.720 --> 0:15:34.640 Did you support each other? Did your mom listen to 0:15:34.680 --> 0:15:35.680 her a little bit more? 0:15:37.040 --> 0:15:42.040 We were not close at that time and not for 0:15:42.120 --> 0:15:45.160 many years afterwards. Actually we were quite mean to each other. 0:15:46.240 --> 0:15:48.800 She kind of scrambled much more than me to go 0:15:48.840 --> 0:15:52.680 into looking after dad and felt very very protective of him, 0:15:53.480 --> 0:15:55.440 And looking back, I think I saw that she was 0:15:55.480 --> 0:15:59.440 a bit more angry with my mum. We're very close 0:15:59.520 --> 0:16:02.280 now and I like a great ally in her, very 0:16:02.320 --> 0:16:06.640 grateful that we've improved our relationship, But I don't think 0:16:06.840 --> 0:16:10.120 she was getting much input from my mum at that 0:16:10.200 --> 0:16:11.080 time either. 0:16:12.000 --> 0:16:14.920 Was there anyone at the time who knew that you 0:16:15.040 --> 0:16:18.040 were really struggling? Because I want to point out when 0:16:18.040 --> 0:16:20.800 anyone we ask you how you felt, you almost each 0:16:20.840 --> 0:16:24.040 time first responded about how your mom or your dad 0:16:24.040 --> 0:16:26.640 felt before you could talk about how you felt. And 0:16:26.680 --> 0:16:29.720 I think that's probably representative of what was going on. 0:16:30.440 --> 0:16:34.320 But was there anyone who asked who you approached and 0:16:34.640 --> 0:16:35.880 talked about how you felt. 0:16:37.120 --> 0:16:38.320 No, there wasn't anyone. 0:16:39.600 --> 0:16:41.840 What happened when you were seventeen and you went to 0:16:41.880 --> 0:16:47.080 go see the doctor and you were referred to a psychiatrist. 0:16:47.320 --> 0:16:49.480 You told the doctor a little bit about what was 0:16:49.520 --> 0:16:49.880 going on. 0:16:52.120 --> 0:16:55.600 I didn't tell the doctor about any family circumstances. I 0:16:55.720 --> 0:17:00.520 mainly talked about my sort of mental health symptoms. Referred 0:17:00.560 --> 0:17:04.360 me to psychiatry, and they did a proper assessment. They 0:17:04.400 --> 0:17:08.919 put me on antidepressants, and they referred me for cognitive 0:17:09.080 --> 0:17:14.800 behavioral therapy. I quit after a few sessions because I 0:17:14.840 --> 0:17:18.439 was aware. I didn't pursue it, but I think what 0:17:18.520 --> 0:17:22.640 I really needed at that particular time was just an 0:17:22.640 --> 0:17:26.600 adult to take an interest. We weren't talking about what 0:17:26.680 --> 0:17:29.080 was going on at all, and I was kind of 0:17:30.560 --> 0:17:36.399 doing exercises to address my symptoms. And I remember thinking, 0:17:36.440 --> 0:17:39.640 you know, I've been feeling suicidal for months and you're 0:17:39.680 --> 0:17:40.959 giving me exercises. 0:17:42.640 --> 0:17:44.719 Did you tell them that you were feeling suicidal? 0:17:46.160 --> 0:17:49.560 I did in the initial assessment, which is why they 0:17:49.600 --> 0:17:54.000 put me on the antidepressants. I would have thought that 0:17:54.040 --> 0:17:57.000 information was pastitive the therapist, but we didn't really talk 0:17:57.040 --> 0:17:57.560 about it. 0:17:58.880 --> 0:18:02.680 This feels almost like a repetition of what would happen 0:18:02.720 --> 0:18:08.200 in your family, where you're doing everything you can to 0:18:08.240 --> 0:18:12.200 try to let people know that you're struggling, and people 0:18:12.280 --> 0:18:15.720 are not giving you the kind of response that would 0:18:15.760 --> 0:18:21.480 be helpful, and you were sort of numbing yourself with 0:18:21.840 --> 0:18:26.520 recreational drugs. You were restricting your eating, you were trying 0:18:26.560 --> 0:18:30.359 to find ways to cope with a situation where you 0:18:30.359 --> 0:18:31.680 weren't getting any support. 0:18:34.440 --> 0:18:38.040 Yeah, I think that's right. I was using a lot 0:18:38.080 --> 0:18:40.359 of drugs from seventeen and these are the kinds of 0:18:40.440 --> 0:18:42.240 drugs that are really messed with your brain. 0:18:43.000 --> 0:18:45.320 What were you using, Well, a lot. 0:18:45.280 --> 0:18:47.919 Of eggs to say, that was my drug of choice. 0:18:48.480 --> 0:18:55.000 And yes, I had an eating disorder. It wasn't ever diagnosed. 0:18:55.119 --> 0:18:58.159 I didn't ever pursue any help with that, and I 0:18:58.280 --> 0:18:59.920 just kind of fell out of it at some point. 0:19:00.680 --> 0:19:04.360 You know, Manine, it's so unusual for a seventeen year 0:19:04.400 --> 0:19:09.439 old to pick themselves up and find a psychiatrist and 0:19:09.520 --> 0:19:12.600 get assessed and then find a therapist. And it's so 0:19:12.680 --> 0:19:15.879 unfortunate that you were desperately searching for some kind of 0:19:16.000 --> 0:19:19.520 connection with some kind of adult who you could rely on, 0:19:19.600 --> 0:19:21.560 because there were none, and it sounds like there was 0:19:21.720 --> 0:19:25.720 zero connection with a therapist, and that just affirms to 0:19:25.760 --> 0:19:28.560 you that adults don't see me. 0:19:29.680 --> 0:19:34.359 I do remember feeling very alone, completely alone. 0:19:34.920 --> 0:19:38.240 And on top of that, your mom found your anti 0:19:38.320 --> 0:19:44.040 depressants and told you you don't need these, but didn't 0:19:44.040 --> 0:19:47.000 seem curious at all about why you had them in 0:19:47.040 --> 0:19:50.200 the first place. Did she ask you about that? 0:19:53.040 --> 0:19:58.000 She didn't ask me any questions. It was ironic. She 0:19:58.080 --> 0:20:02.280 worked in psychiatry herself. Looking back, I think maybe she 0:20:02.359 --> 0:20:06.479 was feeling scared and she reacted with anger and she 0:20:06.920 --> 0:20:09.600 yelled at me and said, I remember very clearly she said, 0:20:09.960 --> 0:20:13.560 I work with very sick people. You don't need to 0:20:13.600 --> 0:20:14.280 be on these. 0:20:15.400 --> 0:20:18.240 Do you remember telling her mom, I'm really struggling. 0:20:19.560 --> 0:20:24.560 No. I think I felt like I couldn't trust her. 0:20:25.359 --> 0:20:26.840 What did you think she would do if you had 0:20:26.840 --> 0:20:27.280 said that? 0:20:28.840 --> 0:20:32.080 I didn't feel like she would handle them sensitively and 0:20:32.400 --> 0:20:37.879 you know, tactfully and give me, you know, reassuring input. 0:20:39.359 --> 0:20:42.240 So the trust was she won't be able to help me, 0:20:42.320 --> 0:20:45.560 so it's a waste to tell her anyway, or the 0:20:45.720 --> 0:20:49.280 trust is she might share this with people. 0:20:50.560 --> 0:20:53.919 Well, she has compromised by privacy. At other times, just 0:20:54.000 --> 0:21:00.479 other things, I felt like she wouldn't be caring and 0:21:00.480 --> 0:21:03.880 and I needed that care and sensitivity. She was often 0:21:03.960 --> 0:21:06.679 quite angry with me. I feel like I was struggling 0:21:06.880 --> 0:21:11.480 and I was kind of granded as Devian. That's how 0:21:11.480 --> 0:21:11.960 I felt. 0:21:13.520 --> 0:21:15.720 This is so important because I think it relates to 0:21:15.800 --> 0:21:18.600 what you're dealing with now, which is this idea that 0:21:20.000 --> 0:21:23.240 I don't trust her to be careful with my heart. 0:21:35.280 --> 0:21:36.440 I need you to get me right. 0:21:37.119 --> 0:21:39.480 I think it's because I just touched your heart in 0:21:39.480 --> 0:21:42.679 a way that you longed for your mom to that 0:21:42.800 --> 0:21:45.920 I saw you in a way that you want your 0:21:45.960 --> 0:21:50.400 mom to see you. And so I think that when 0:21:50.440 --> 0:21:53.199 we're young and we know that we're not going to 0:21:53.200 --> 0:21:56.720 get the response that's going to be caring and loving, 0:21:57.560 --> 0:22:03.280 we start to distrust that person to handle our most tender, 0:22:03.440 --> 0:22:04.920 vulnerable parts. 0:22:05.600 --> 0:22:07.680 That sounds like very accurate to. 0:22:07.680 --> 0:22:12.639 Me, and unfortunately for you, there wasn't anyone else that 0:22:12.920 --> 0:22:16.840 was compensating for that. In other words, what you're probably 0:22:16.840 --> 0:22:19.840 feeling at the time is that I can't trust anyone 0:22:20.080 --> 0:22:22.440 with my heart because no one was taking any interest 0:22:23.200 --> 0:22:26.199 in it. People could see that the parents got divorced, 0:22:26.240 --> 0:22:28.760 that you might have been struggling. Suddenly there's a weight loss, 0:22:28.840 --> 0:22:32.520 you're partying too much, and yet no one expressed concern 0:22:32.640 --> 0:22:37.080 or care, So that mistrust must have expanded even beyond 0:22:37.119 --> 0:22:39.840 your mom to people in general. Are there people who 0:22:39.880 --> 0:22:40.840 can really care for me? 0:22:42.880 --> 0:22:47.320 That hasn't occurred to me before, But potentially, yes, we 0:22:47.400 --> 0:22:51.879 did have relatives who were in our lives. No one 0:22:51.960 --> 0:22:56.399 ever asked how I was doing. I can remember my 0:22:56.480 --> 0:22:59.000 auntie stopping me in the street and she sunded very 0:22:59.000 --> 0:23:01.200 cross and say, you've got very thin, and she kind 0:23:01.200 --> 0:23:04.280 of pulled at my trousers, just you know, to show 0:23:04.359 --> 0:23:08.640 how much weight I'd lost. But it wasn't concerned. I felt. 0:23:08.920 --> 0:23:11.040 I almost felt like I was being told off. 0:23:11.240 --> 0:23:15.119 It felt like a criticism, like you've done something wrong, 0:23:15.160 --> 0:23:19.040 as opposed to tell me what's going on? Are you okay? 0:23:20.560 --> 0:23:21.960 Can I ask how old you are now? 0:23:22.760 --> 0:23:23.679 I'm thirty six? 0:23:24.400 --> 0:23:30.920 Okay, So between seventeen and thirty six, what has happened 0:23:30.960 --> 0:23:35.840