Speaker 1: I'm Laurie Gottlieb. I'm the author of Maybe You Should
Speaker 1: Talk to Someone, and I write the Dear Therapist advice
Speaker 1: column for the Atlantic.
Speaker 2: And I'm Guy Wench. I'm the author of Emotional First Aid,
Speaker 2: and I write the Dear Guy advice column for Ted.
Speaker 2: And this is Dear Therapists.
Speaker 1: Each week we invite you into a real session where
Speaker 1: we help people confront their biggest problems and then give
Speaker 1: them actionable advice and hear about the changes they've made
Speaker 1: in their lives.
Speaker 2: So sit back and welcome to today's session. This week,
Speaker 2: a woman with a difficult mother wonders if there's a
Speaker 2: way to interact with her that won't cause so much pain.
Speaker 3: She was saying that she'd always tried to be a
Speaker 3: good mother. I felt they poked, She'd kept poking at it.
Speaker 3: She would talk quite defensively about why she couldn't have
Speaker 3: done them better, what was going on for her at
Speaker 3: the time.
Speaker 1: First, a quick note, Dear Therapist is for informational purposes only.
Speaker 1: It does not constitute medical or psychological advice, and is
Speaker 1: not a substitute for professional health care advice, diagnosis, or treatment.
Speaker 1: By submitting a letter, you are agreeing to let iHeartMedia
Speaker 1: use it in part orn ful, and we may edit
Speaker 1: it for length and clarity. In the sessions you'll hear.
Speaker 1: All names have been changed for the privacy of our guests.
Speaker 2: Hey, Lourie, Hi guy. So what do we have in
Speaker 2: our mailbooks today?
Speaker 1: Today we have a letter from a woman who has
Speaker 1: a difficult relationship with her mother, and it goes like this,
Speaker 1: Dear therapists, I am writing for help with my relationship
Speaker 1: with my mother. Since I stopped drinking a couple of
Speaker 1: years ago, I have felt a lot of resentment when
Speaker 1: I'm around her. This came as a surprise to me.
Speaker 1: I want a relationship with her, but I've come to
Speaker 1: think that the low self esteem I struggled with throughout
Speaker 1: my twenties, which led to a pattern of numbing with alcohol,
Speaker 1: was the result of having two emotionally neglectful parents. A
Speaker 1: depressed and alcoholic father who was often absent, and a
Speaker 1: physically present but narcissistic mother. I learned that my feelings
Speaker 1: didn't matter, and I've carried that into adult life. When
Speaker 1: I am around my mother, I feel like she takes
Speaker 1: up all of this space and oxygen. What hurts most
Speaker 1: is that she rarely asked me anything about myself except
Speaker 1: one or two token questions, and she changed the subject
Speaker 1: back to her rapidly. She is also very defensive about
Speaker 1: any feedback or even the most minor hint of criticism.
Speaker 1: Things became very strained between us about two years ago
Speaker 1: when I accidentally opened a can of worms. My mom
Speaker 1: for many years has worried obsessively about my older sister,
Speaker 1: who has various emotional difficulties and has genuinely struggled with life.
Speaker 1: Not that I haven't, but my mom has a narrative
Speaker 1: of me being quote the strong one, and she says
Speaker 1: this to me directly, things like Claire struggles, but You've
Speaker 1: always been much more resilient. I find this incredibly painful
Speaker 1: because this isn't how I see myself, and because I
Speaker 1: feel she's used this narrative as a reason not to
Speaker 1: give me support. This included the period of my late
Speaker 1: teens when I was self medicating with party drugs, skipping
Speaker 1: college due to lack of motivation, and clearly developed an
Speaker 1: eating disorder. But I can't remember any adult in my
Speaker 1: family ever asking if I was okay. I remember my
Speaker 1: mom yelling at me for skipping college, and when she
Speaker 1: found my antidepressant, she said, you don't need to be
Speaker 1: on those. Finally, a couple of years ago, I ended
Speaker 1: up telling her that I didn't like her, casting me
Speaker 1: as the resilient one, and she got very defensive and
Speaker 1: then went to Pieces in the end collapsing on the
Speaker 1: beach and saying she thought we loved each other again.
Speaker 1: It seemed to be about her. I took a break
Speaker 1: from her for a few months, but when she visited
Speaker 1: me months later, we segued back into this conversation and
Speaker 1: it became very heated. She went to Pieces again and
Speaker 1: I ended up looking after her. I'm trying to see
Speaker 1: the best in my mother, but I grapple with questions
Speaker 1: of whether I should ever ask her to do anything differently.
Speaker 1: Is there any point given her history of defensiveness and
Speaker 1: poor listening and communication skills. I would really appreciate your advice.
Speaker 1: I feel so stuck Melanie.
Speaker 2: Well, I really feel for Melanie because it sounds like
Speaker 2: she's in a lot of pain about this relationship and
Speaker 2: obviously has been since her childhood, and from what she's describing,
Speaker 2: her mother certainly has limitations, and it sounds like Melanie
Speaker 2: is having a hard time accepting what those are and
Speaker 2: navigating around them. She I think, keeps hoping her mother
Speaker 2: will show up for her in a way her mother
Speaker 2: never really has, and so she's really stuck in this
Speaker 2: limbo of wanting a relationship with her mom that she
Speaker 2: can't have and at the same time perhaps having trouble
Speaker 2: exploring what relationship with her mother she could have. And
Speaker 2: that's where she's stuck right now.
Speaker 1: Yeah, we see this so much where people come in
Speaker 1: and they're really in pain over the relationships with one
Speaker 1: or both parents and they want to have a relationship
Speaker 1: with that parent. But what they're really not clear on
Speaker 1: is do I want a relationship with this parent given
Speaker 1: this parent's limitations and what would that look like versus
Speaker 1: still having that childhood fantasy of I want a relationship
Speaker 1: with the kind of parent that I deserve to have.
Speaker 1: So let's go talk to her and learn more about
Speaker 1: this relationship. Absolutely, you're listening to Dear Therapists for my
Speaker 1: Heart Radio. We'll be back after a short break.
Speaker 2: I'm Laurie Gottlieb and I'm Guy Wench and this is
Speaker 2: Dear Therapist.
Speaker 1: Hi Melanie, Hi there, thank you for coming on the show.
Speaker 3: Thank you for having me.
Speaker 2: You're very welcome. We wanted to start with this question.
Speaker 2: Tell us a little bit about what it was like
Speaker 2: growing up with your mum.
Speaker 3: I would say that we were loved as kids, me
Speaker 3: and my sister. You know, we did nice activities. We
Speaker 3: saw friends for we went on outings. We had all
Speaker 3: our sort of practical needs met. They had Christmas presents,
Speaker 3: we had some holidays. Things were quite good in ways.
Speaker 3: But looking back, I feel like my mum has never
Speaker 3: really been sort of present mentally, and even now I
Speaker 3: never feel like she's really fully present with me. I
Speaker 3: also feel like we didn't get enough validation of our emotions.
Speaker 3: So I feel like what I was really missing was
Speaker 3: that kind of calm, attentive presence and like the nourishing
Speaker 3: parental influence.
Speaker 2: Do you remember moments from your childhood in which that
Speaker 2: was absent.
Speaker 3: I can remember being really little, like five or six maybe,
Speaker 3: and my mum walking me home from school every day,
Speaker 3: and every day she'd ask what did you do at
Speaker 3: school today? And I remember that every day I'd say nothing.
Speaker 3: And I think this is strange to have that awareness
Speaker 3: of what was going on for me at such a
Speaker 3: young age, But I think what it was was like,
Speaker 3: I never really felt like she was interested. I felt
Speaker 3: it was a standard issue question, so I'd always say
Speaker 3: nothing because I didn't really feel like she was listening.
Speaker 1: Did you wish that she had asked something else? Or
Speaker 1: did you just feel like if I answered, she's not
Speaker 1: going to be paying attention.
Speaker 3: I think it was more the latter. As I've got older,
Speaker 3: I've definitely wanted her to ask different questions, and you know,
Speaker 3: the kinds of questions I would ask friends. For example,
Speaker 3: I wouldn't just say how was work and then move on.
Speaker 3: I'd say, you know, like, how was work he says
Speaker 3: you were having a rough time lately, or how is
Speaker 3: that new manager working out? So I've always felt like
Speaker 3: the questions are kind of standard issue. She doesn't really
Speaker 3: listened to what you say, and then she's kind of
Speaker 3: moved on.
Speaker 1: Where does she move to when she moves on? Is
Speaker 1: it about her? Is it about small talk? Where does
Speaker 1: she go?
Speaker 3: She often moves on to her. She'll bring things back
Speaker 3: to her own life, her own experience quite consistently.
Speaker 2: Do you have recollections from your adolescence of moments in
Speaker 2: which this dynamic happened? Where she wasn't quite present, or
Speaker 2: she seemed to be asking the question, but the substance
Speaker 2: was lacking.
Speaker 3: For you, I do there was a particularly difficult time
Speaker 3: in my late teens when my mental health was going downhill.
Speaker 3: She would kind of demand factual information from me, didn't
Speaker 3: really ask what's going on for you? Is everything okay
Speaker 3: for you? How are you feeling? I would be asked,
Speaker 3: why are you seeing that? You know, what kind of
Speaker 3: anxiety do you have? And oh? At that time, and
Speaker 3: it has other times felt like a sort of bombardment
Speaker 3: of questions as opposed to like I'm here, I'm listening,
Speaker 3: you know, asking more open questions of the kind I
Speaker 3: would like someone to do when I'm feeling fragile.
Speaker 1: I think that goes back to being five years old
Speaker 1: and leaving school, and instead of saying how are you,
Speaker 1: she said what did you do today? There's a very
Speaker 1: different questions, and that wouldn't be a big deal if
Speaker 1: she meant it in that way, but it sounds like
Speaker 1: she did not mean it in that way. She wasn't
Speaker 1: looking to really hear how you were. And I think
Speaker 1: that when you were struggling and you were trying to
Speaker 1: get help in your teens there were Again, wasn't that
Speaker 1: question of what's going on? Talk to me? I'm here.
Speaker 1: How can I help.
Speaker 2: As well? If you you were seeing a therapist and
Speaker 2: taking medication in your teens and your mother was against it,
Speaker 2: then how did you get hooked up with a therapist
Speaker 2: and a psychiatrist.
Speaker 3: I went to my doctor at how old? Seventeen? I
Speaker 3: went to the GP. I was referred to psychiatry.
Speaker 2: But Sora Melanie, usually at seventeen it goes through a parent.
Speaker 2: You just initiated this yourself. I think there's something wrong.
Speaker 2: I'm going to contact myp and not even tell my
Speaker 2: parents about it.
Speaker 3: I didn't. I didn't really feel I had an adult
Speaker 3: who would be there for me. I felt very alone
Speaker 3: with it, and I think I I was alone.
Speaker 1: You said that your father was largely absent. Can you
Speaker 1: tell us a little bit about him as well, so
Speaker 1: we understand the context in which you ended up going
Speaker 1: to the doctor alone.
Speaker 3: My parents divorced when I was twelve, and it was
Speaker 3: very messy and in the same town as us when
Speaker 3: I was seventeen, but I could go long periods without
Speaker 3: seeing him, and in the years running up to that age,
Speaker 3: and for some years after. He had long periods of
Speaker 3: serious alcoholism. He wasn't really there a lot of the time.
Speaker 1: Did you see that in the house before they divorced?
Speaker 1: Did you see him drinking and checking out?
Speaker 3: Yeah? Yeah. After my mum left him, he kind of
Speaker 3: deteriorated quite quickly. We were still living with him, but
Speaker 3: he was off work with depression. He was drinking a lot,
Speaker 3: and he was kind of leaning on me and my
Speaker 3: sister emotionally as like a twelve year old and fifteen
Speaker 3: year old, So that was very difficult.
Speaker 1: Was the reason that your mum left him because he
Speaker 1: was drinking and not doing anything about it.
Speaker 3: I think she left him because he was just not
Speaker 3: being a present partner, not pulling his weight around the house.
Speaker 3: And really they're just quite badly matched. That's quite obvious
Speaker 3: with twenty years of hindsight.
Speaker 2: How did you feel about them separating? You were twelve.
Speaker 2: Do you remember how they told you?
Speaker 3: My mum had told me she was going to leave
Speaker 3: a couple of years before she did, and then I
Speaker 3: think she tried to stick it out. I don't think
Speaker 3: I was that bothered by the separation itself. I think
Speaker 3: it was all the stuff around it. So how it
Speaker 3: was handled the fallout, I.
Speaker 1: Suppose what did the fallout look like?
Speaker 3: So my dad deteriorated and was drinking a lot and
Speaker 3: not looking after the house. He was spying on my mum.
Speaker 3: He had followed by a detective. At one point. There
Speaker 3: was a very weird situation. They were living next door
Speaker 3: to each other because my mum owned the house next door.
Speaker 3: She previously rented it out, and in the absence of
Speaker 3: many other options, she just sort of moved in there.
Speaker 3: I felt very kind of self conscious about this strange
Speaker 3: situation at home. My dad was a mess. We're probably
Speaker 3: exposed to a lot of stuff with him that we
Speaker 3: weren't capable of dealing with. It didn't really feel like
Speaker 3: there was anyone asking us how we were doing.
Speaker 2: You say you were exposed to things that you're not
Speaker 2: supposed to be exposed to. Can you give us an example?
Speaker 3: Just his sort of letting it all hang out emotionally.
Speaker 3: And I was dating someone new and he'd say, what
Speaker 3: hals he got that I haven't got, And he would
Speaker 3: say to me how lonely he was. And there was
Speaker 3: a time when he was saying to me, he was
Speaker 3: so lonely, and he really found it hard going to
Speaker 3: bed and being alone in bed, and I offered to
Speaker 3: stay in bed with him to ease his life, and
Speaker 3: I did, and I didn't really want to because I
Speaker 3: was twelve. I didn't want to share a bed with
Speaker 3: my dad, but you know, I wanted him to feel better.
Speaker 3: It was a horrible environment.
Speaker 1: Did you ever talk to your mom about what was
Speaker 1: going on with your dad? The things where he was
Speaker 1: asking you for company in ways that weren't appropriate, That
Speaker 1: he was telling you things about his personal struggles that
Speaker 1: weren't appropriate.
Speaker 3: I think I told hers some of it, and I
Speaker 3: think she actually directly observed some of it and was
Speaker 3: quite critical of that.
Speaker 1: But in terms of protecting you from all of this,
Speaker 1: can you remember at all what maybe even one of
Speaker 1: those conversations might have been like?
Speaker 2: No, do you recall how you felt at that time?
Speaker 2: Were you angry? Did you blame one or the other?
Speaker 2: Were you talking with friends with things that emotionally for you?
Speaker 3: I felt worried about my dad, and at times I
Speaker 3: was trying to be there for him, and at other
Speaker 3: times I just found it so horrendous. I didn't want
Speaker 3: to look at it. And then I would, you know,
Speaker 3: try and spend more time away from him, and I'd
Speaker 3: feel guilty about that.
Speaker 1: Where was your sister and all of this. You mentioned
Speaker 1: that she's three years older and that your mom does
Speaker 1: recognize that she struggled from the fallout of all of this.
Speaker 1: So what was going on between the two of you?
Speaker 1: Did you support each other? Did your mom listen to
Speaker 1: her a little bit more?
Speaker 3: We were not close at that time and not for
Speaker 3: many years afterwards. Actually we were quite mean to each other.
Speaker 3: She kind of scrambled much more than me to go
Speaker 3: into looking after dad and felt very very protective of him,
Speaker 3: And looking back, I think I saw that she was
Speaker 3: a bit more angry with my mum. We're very close
Speaker 3: now and I like a great ally in her, very
Speaker 3: grateful that we've improved our relationship, But I don't think
Speaker 3: she was getting much input from my mum at that
Speaker 3: time either.
Speaker 2: Was there anyone at the time who knew that you
Speaker 2: were really struggling? Because I want to point out when
Speaker 2: anyone we ask you how you felt, you almost each
Speaker 2: time first responded about how your mom or your dad
Speaker 2: felt before you could talk about how you felt. And
Speaker 2: I think that's probably representative of what was going on.
Speaker 2: But was there anyone who asked who you approached and
Speaker 2: talked about how you felt.
Speaker 3: No, there wasn't anyone.
Speaker 1: What happened when you were seventeen and you went to
Speaker 1: go see the doctor and you were referred to a psychiatrist.
Speaker 1: You told the doctor a little bit about what was
Speaker 1: going on.
Speaker 3: I didn't tell the doctor about any family circumstances. I
Speaker 3: mainly talked about my sort of mental health symptoms. Referred
Speaker 3: me to psychiatry, and they did a proper assessment. They
Speaker 3: put me on antidepressants, and they referred me for cognitive
Speaker 3: behavioral therapy. I quit after a few sessions because I
Speaker 3: was aware. I didn't pursue it, but I think what
Speaker 3: I really needed at that particular time was just an
Speaker 3: adult to take an interest. We weren't talking about what
Speaker 3: was going on at all, and I was kind of
Speaker 3: doing exercises to address my symptoms. And I remember thinking,
Speaker 3: you know, I've been feeling suicidal for months and you're
Speaker 3: giving me exercises.
Speaker 1: Did you tell them that you were feeling suicidal?
Speaker 3: I did in the initial assessment, which is why they
Speaker 3: put me on the antidepressants. I would have thought that
Speaker 3: information was pastitive the therapist, but we didn't really talk
Speaker 3: about it.
Speaker 1: This feels almost like a repetition of what would happen
Speaker 1: in your family, where you're doing everything you can to
Speaker 1: try to let people know that you're struggling, and people
Speaker 1: are not giving you the kind of response that would
Speaker 1: be helpful, and you were sort of numbing yourself with
Speaker 1: recreational drugs. You were restricting your eating, you were trying
Speaker 1: to find ways to cope with a situation where you
Speaker 1: weren't getting any support.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that's right. I was using a lot
Speaker 3: of drugs from seventeen and these are the kinds of
Speaker 3: drugs that are really messed with your brain.
Speaker 1: What were you using, Well, a lot.
Speaker 3: Of eggs to say, that was my drug of choice.
Speaker 3: And yes, I had an eating disorder. It wasn't ever diagnosed.
Speaker 3: I didn't ever pursue any help with that, and I
Speaker 3: just kind of fell out of it at some point.
Speaker 2: You know, Manine, it's so unusual for a seventeen year
Speaker 2: old to pick themselves up and find a psychiatrist and
Speaker 2: get assessed and then find a therapist. And it's so
Speaker 2: unfortunate that you were desperately searching for some kind of
Speaker 2: connection with some kind of adult who you could rely on,
Speaker 2: because there were none, and it sounds like there was
Speaker 2: zero connection with a therapist, and that just affirms to
Speaker 2: you that adults don't see me.
Speaker 3: I do remember feeling very alone, completely alone.
Speaker 1: And on top of that, your mom found your anti
Speaker 1: depressants and told you you don't need these, but didn't
Speaker 1: seem curious at all about why you had them in
Speaker 1: the first place. Did she ask you about that?
Speaker 3: She didn't ask me any questions. It was ironic. She
Speaker 3: worked in psychiatry herself. Looking back, I think maybe she
Speaker 3: was feeling scared and she reacted with anger and she
Speaker 3: yelled at me and said, I remember very clearly she said,
Speaker 3: I work with very sick people. You don't need to
Speaker 3: be on these.
Speaker 1: Do you remember telling her mom, I'm really struggling.
Speaker 3: No. I think I felt like I couldn't trust her.
Speaker 1: What did you think she would do if you had
Speaker 1: said that?
Speaker 3: I didn't feel like she would handle them sensitively and
Speaker 3: you know, tactfully and give me, you know, reassuring input.
Speaker 1: So the trust was she won't be able to help me,
Speaker 1: so it's a waste to tell her anyway, or the
Speaker 1: trust is she might share this with people.
Speaker 3: Well, she has compromised by privacy. At other times, just
Speaker 3: other things, I felt like she wouldn't be caring and
Speaker 3: and I needed that care and sensitivity. She was often
Speaker 3: quite angry with me. I feel like I was struggling
Speaker 3: and I was kind of granded as Devian. That's how
Speaker 3: I felt.
Speaker 1: This is so important because I think it relates to
Speaker 1: what you're dealing with now, which is this idea that
Speaker 1: I don't trust her to be careful with my heart.
Speaker 3: I need you to get me right.
Speaker 1: I think it's because I just touched your heart in
Speaker 1: a way that you longed for your mom to that
Speaker 1: I saw you in a way that you want your
Speaker 1: mom to see you. And so I think that when
Speaker 1: we're young and we know that we're not going to
Speaker 1: get the response that's going to be caring and loving,
Speaker 1: we start to distrust that person to handle our most tender,
Speaker 1: vulnerable parts.
Speaker 3: That sounds like very accurate to.
Speaker 2: Me, and unfortunately for you, there wasn't anyone else that
Speaker 2: was compensating for that. In other words, what you're probably
Speaker 2: feeling at the time is that I can't trust anyone
Speaker 2: with my heart because no one was taking any interest
Speaker 2: in it. People could see that the parents got divorced,
Speaker 2: that you might have been struggling. Suddenly there's a weight loss,
Speaker 2: you're partying too much, and yet no one expressed concern
Speaker 2: or care, So that mistrust must have expanded even beyond
Speaker 2: your mom to people in general. Are there people who
Speaker 2: can really care for me?
Speaker 3: That hasn't occurred to me before, But potentially, yes, we
Speaker 3: did have relatives who were in our lives. No one
Speaker 3: ever asked how I was doing. I can remember my
Speaker 3: auntie stopping me in the street and she sunded very
Speaker 3: cross and say, you've got very thin, and she kind
Speaker 3: of pulled at my trousers, just you know, to show
Speaker 3: how much weight I'd lost. But it wasn't concerned. I felt.
Speaker 3: I almost felt like I was being told off.
Speaker 1: It felt like a criticism, like you've done something wrong,
Speaker 1: as opposed to tell me what's going on? Are you okay?
Speaker 1: Can I ask how old you are now?
Speaker 3: I'm thirty six?
Speaker 1: Okay, So between seventeen and thirty six, what has happened
Speaker 1: with the relationship with your mom and your dad? And
Speaker 1: then also you mentioned that you and your sister have
Speaker 1: now reconciled.
Speaker 3: So with my dad, I feel like we're in the
Speaker 3: best place that we can be. I feel like he
Speaker 3: has quite big limitations in terms of how close he
Speaker 3: can just get to people. But I see him more
Speaker 3: than I ever have. He has to stabilizer relationship, so
Speaker 3: he's doing fairly well in himself, and I kind of
Speaker 3: I don't really struggle so much with my relationship with
Speaker 3: my dad because I feel like that's as good as
Speaker 3: it's going to get, and it's a lot better than
Speaker 3: it has been at times.
Speaker 1: Does he have any idea about how much you've struggled?
Speaker 1: Did you ever share that with him?
Speaker 3: No? I don't think he can really do emotional conversations.
Speaker 1: And what about your sister? When did that reconciliation happen?
Speaker 1: And what does that look like in terms of the
Speaker 1: emotional intimacy between the two of you.
Speaker 3: I think there's just been a sort of softening for
Speaker 3: both of us as we've got older. I've made a
Speaker 3: conscious effort to speak to her more, and we have
Speaker 3: quite intimate conversations now, like they're really nourishing to me.
Speaker 3: We would never have had these ten years.
Speaker 1: When did that start? And who reached out?
Speaker 3: I think she has kind of sprung into action when
Speaker 3: I've heard some difficult things going on in my life.
Speaker 3: When I've left relationships, she's made an effort to connect
Speaker 3: with me and check in with me. I've had some
Speaker 3: health problems lately, as saying, the last year or two,
Speaker 3: for some reason, we've started talking a lot about this
Speaker 3: historical family stuff and current issues which we both have
Speaker 3: with a mother.
Speaker 1: And it sounds like that was the first time that
Speaker 1: another adult, even though she's your peer for both adults
Speaker 1: now showed concern for something you were struggling with.
Speaker 3: Yes, for example, I left an abusive relationship and we
Speaker 3: weren't living in the same town, but I remember when
Speaker 3: I visited home, we were together a bit, and I
Speaker 3: just remember feeling very cared for by her at that time.
Speaker 1: What did she do that made you feel cared for?
Speaker 3: She gave me all the kind of kind words and
Speaker 3: assurances and encouragements that I needed and wanted, and she
Speaker 3: also helped me navigate conversations with my parents. I think
Speaker 3: I remember seeing my dad with her, and I didn't
Speaker 3: necessarily have to tell him, but for whatever reason, I
Speaker 3: wanted to tell him I've been in this abusive relationship,
Speaker 3: and I think she kind of helped me tell him
Speaker 3: and navigate that conversation that he wasn't really that well
Speaker 3: equipped for. I just felt that she had my back.
Speaker 2: I suppose she listened, is what she did. I mean,
Speaker 2: this is the first thing. She can say, the kind words,
Speaker 2: but in order to say them, she first has to
Speaker 2: listen and actually hear you and actually see you and
Speaker 2: actually convey that she gets what you were going through.
Speaker 2: And then she consider words that are supportive. But even
Speaker 2: when she's helping you navigate the conversation with your dad,
Speaker 2: she's clearly listening and seeing you in a way that
Speaker 2: none of the family members had. That must have been
Speaker 2: really important for you in your early twenties to have
Speaker 2: that experience for the first time of a family member
Speaker 2: actually caring, actually helping, actually validating it.
Speaker 3: Was It was really meaningful, and maybe that was the
Speaker 3: start of us gradually improving our relationship.
Speaker 1: I also think it's one thing to imagine what it
Speaker 1: would feel like to get that kind of support, and
Speaker 1: it's another thing entirely to actually experience it. And you
Speaker 1: had been I imagine, fantasizing about what it would be
Speaker 1: like your whole childhood to get that kind of support.
Speaker 1: Maybe you even saw other people with their mothers or
Speaker 1: fathers and had envy of what you imagined those conversations
Speaker 1: look like in their households, and so you can fantasize
Speaker 1: about it. When you get it, it's almost like you've
Speaker 1: been dreaming of a meal forever and you're starving, and
Speaker 1: then all of a sudden someone feeds you. And it
Speaker 1: feels so delicious to get that kind of support, to
Speaker 1: be seen, to be heard, to be understood, and maybe
Speaker 1: in a way that other people wouldn't quite understand because
Speaker 1: she grew up in that house too, even if she
Speaker 1: had a different experience of it, So it seems like
Speaker 1: that maybe set the stage for something to happen between
Speaker 1: the two of you.
Speaker 3: I think it did.
Speaker 1: She said, you've gotten into some historical family conversations. What
Speaker 1: have those been like?
Speaker 3: We've just been sharing our experiences of some really difficult times,
Speaker 3: including you know, our parents' separation and the things that
Speaker 3: happened around that. And then our experience is moving to
Speaker 3: a new town a little bit later and both feeling
Speaker 3: quite lonely, in adrift and like we didn't really belong
Speaker 3: and she had some slightly different stuff going on. It
Speaker 3: wasn't exactly the same experience, but it's been really healing
Speaker 3: to kind of revisit that in what feels like a safe,
Speaker 3: nurturing place and both hear each other.
Speaker 2: You mentioned some struggles with relationships that have happened over
Speaker 2: your life. Tell us a little bit about this relationship
Speaker 2: history and what tends to happen and where you feel
Speaker 2: things go wrong.
Speaker 3: So I'll show you some pretty dubious partners in my twenties.
Speaker 3: There were people who didn't really respond to my needs
Speaker 3: or validate my feelings, some quite angry people. But if
Speaker 3: I've tried to understand the kind of pattern, the sort
Speaker 3: of picked relationships where I don't feel seen and stayed
Speaker 3: in them quite a long time on some occasions.
Speaker 1: So basically a revisit of your childhood.
Speaker 2: Yes, So when did that any drop for you were
Speaker 2: saying it quite clearly, Now, when did you have that
Speaker 2: realization that you're replicating your childhood and choosing people that
Speaker 2: weren't seeing you.
Speaker 3: I left a long term relationship a couple of years ago,
Speaker 3: and I had some psychotherapy after that, and that helped
Speaker 3: me get a bit more understanding.
Speaker 2: And do you see a change in who you select
Speaker 2: these days? After that insight?
Speaker 3: I do my standards are a lot higher. I want
Speaker 3: to meet someone and have a family, so I have
Speaker 3: a lot of worry around that sometimes that might never
Speaker 3: happen for me. Time is sticking away. But I am
Speaker 3: in a place now where, like I won't accept less
Speaker 3: and that's good.
Speaker 2: It is Are you also in a place where you
Speaker 2: can feel that, maybe not right away, but with the
Speaker 2: right person, that you can be vulnerable, that you can trust,
Speaker 2: that you can give them a chance to see there
Speaker 2: and be validating and supportive because you also have to
Speaker 2: bring someone in enough to give them that opportunity. Are
Speaker 2: you doing that?
Speaker 3: I'm practicing. I'm definitely getting better. I've consciously tried to
Speaker 3: be more vulnerable with people, you know, relatives, friends, romantic partners. Well,
Speaker 3: I I'm making very good progress there, Like I'm really
Speaker 3: working on it.
Speaker 1: Is that what prompted you a couple of years ago
Speaker 1: to finally, after all these years, tell your mom how
Speaker 1: you felt about the way she characterizes you as the
Speaker 1: resilient one.
Speaker 3: Yes, I've been practicing speaking my truth. I've been practicing
Speaker 3: talking about my needs, telling people, well, I'm not happy
Speaker 3: And actually I sort of segued into that difficult conversation
Speaker 3: with my mum or it came out sort of by accident,
Speaker 3: but when it was happening, I really stayed with it,
Speaker 3: And even though it's been pretty horrible at times out
Speaker 3: of conversation, I felt really hurt. I was also really
Speaker 3: proud of myself speaking minds and in reality, whether she
Speaker 3: wanted to listen or.
Speaker 1: Not, you said that your mom fell to pieces on
Speaker 1: the beach and sort of collapsed and you had to
Speaker 1: contain her. Had something like that ever happened with her before?
Speaker 3: Not as extreme as that? Now when I'm around her,
Speaker 3: I think I've often felt like I'm walking on eggshells
Speaker 3: and I had to kind of navigate a slight volatility,
Speaker 3: but nothing like that before.
Speaker 2: Can you just tell us a little bit about what
Speaker 2: actually that looked like that conversation when she felt pieces
Speaker 2: because people use that term, but what was actually happening
Speaker 2: with her in that conversation.
Speaker 3: She was crying, She was saying things like I thought
Speaker 3: we loved each other. She was saying that she'd always
Speaker 3: tried to be a good mother. I felt very poked.
Speaker 3: She'd kept poking at it, and she would talk quite
Speaker 3: defensively about why she couldn't have done better at what
Speaker 3: was going on for her at the time.
Speaker 2: In that conversation, she really experienced you sharing how you
Speaker 2: feel as an attack on her as a big criticism
Speaker 2: of her parenting. She had a really hard time hearing
Speaker 2: you talking about how you feel without personalizing it as
Speaker 2: an accusation, and and then she gets really defensive as
Speaker 2: a result.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that was what was happening.
Speaker 1: It sounds like she was so busy defending herself that
Speaker 1: she didn't seem to be very curious about what you
Speaker 1: were trying to tell her. And I think your message
Speaker 1: was I was in a lot of pain as a
Speaker 1: child and it has affected me as an adult, and
Speaker 1: she could not sit with that with you.
Speaker 3: That's right. I expressed it as carefully as I could,
Speaker 3: and I tried not to lay blame at her door.
Speaker 3: I didn't really tell her, and I haven't told her
Speaker 3: about what I've carried through into my adult life and
Speaker 3: some of the problems I've had. I've always kind of
Speaker 3: shielded her from that, I.
Speaker 1: Suppose, And maybe you weren't just shielding her, but you
Speaker 1: were shield you because not only have you experienced this pain,
Speaker 1: but then you experience more pain when you try to
Speaker 1: talk to her about this and she shuts you down
Speaker 1: with her own defensiveness. Yes, so it's a painful experience
Speaker 1: to go to her and tell her this. You're already
Speaker 1: in pain, but then having the conversation brings on more pain.
Speaker 1: It doesn't bring relief, which is what we hope to
Speaker 1: get from these conversations, connection, relief, understanding care.
Speaker 3: I felt like it was actually doing more harm than good,
Speaker 3: and that's why I kind of shut it down.
Speaker 2: Right And in that conversation, she demonstrated once again why
Speaker 2: you have a hard time trusting her, because she doesn't
Speaker 2: hear them or address them. She just experiences you'll distress
Speaker 2: as as criticism and then comes back at you.
Speaker 1: What you've seen, as we said earlier, is that she's
Speaker 1: not careful with your heart. And I think what you're
Speaker 1: trying to do, and the reason that you wrote to
Speaker 1: us is you're trying to be careful with your own heart.
Speaker 1: You're trying to find a way to say, how can
Speaker 1: I be careful with my heart and also have a
Speaker 1: relationship with my mother? What would that look like?
Speaker 3: That's exactly it.
Speaker 2: So what does the relationship look like? Right now?
Speaker 3: So I speak to her on the phone. We live
Speaker 3: in different towns, I speak to her on the phone
Speaker 3: maybe once or twice a week for a short phone call.
Speaker 2: Who calls who?
Speaker 3: I tend to call her. I've encouraged her to call me,
Speaker 3: but she so she tiptoes around me a lot. She
Speaker 3: seems to say, I don't want to bother you. I
Speaker 3: don't want to bother you, Whereas I would like her
Speaker 3: to call me, because then I'd feel like she was
Speaker 3: taking an interest.
Speaker 1: Talking to someone that you have a difficult relationship, once
Speaker 1: or twice a week is frequent. What makes you want
Speaker 1: to call her? What are you hoping to get from
Speaker 1: those conversations? And are they nourishing in any way?
Speaker 3: They're not nourishing. I think a sense of obligation is
Speaker 3: a large part of that. I often feel quite rejected
Speaker 3: during those phone calls, because she talks a lot about herself.
Speaker 3: I should tell you anything and everything going on in
Speaker 3: her life, and then she kind of ask me one
Speaker 3: or two kind of standard questions, has work or what
Speaker 3: are you doing today? I don't feel like she's present.
Speaker 1: You said you call her out of a sense of obligation.
Speaker 1: Does she have anyone in her life? Did she get remarried?
Speaker 3: She did? She has a partner of about twenty years now.
Speaker 3: She has a few friends.
Speaker 1: Do you have any relationship at all with this person
Speaker 1: or is this person more similar to your mother where
Speaker 1: it's more superficial.
Speaker 3: More superficial. He's a good guy, but he's a real
Speaker 3: talker like my mother. I visited them at Christmas. I
Speaker 3: wasn't sure whether to do it because I have a
Speaker 3: difficult time there, but I did, and I realized between
Speaker 3: the two of them, I'm left feeling sort of really
Speaker 3: overwhelmed at how much they talk at me, and I
Speaker 3: feel almost invisible.
Speaker 1: Is your sister there at Christmas?
Speaker 3: She has a partner and a baby now, so she
Speaker 3: was there after Christmas for a couple of days.
Speaker 1: You mentioned in your letter that your mom characterizes your
Speaker 1: sister as the one who really struggled. Tell us a
Speaker 1: little bit about why your mom believes that what she
Speaker 1: was seeing with your sister that she wasn't seeing with you.
Speaker 3: It's strangerly because I feel we've had a lot of
Speaker 3: very similar issues and got very different treatment.
Speaker 1: Your sister is the one who seems to have found
Speaker 1: a healthy relationship and the family the things that you're wanting.
Speaker 1: Does your mom notice that that maybe you are struggling
Speaker 1: with some things that your sister is not.
Speaker 3: No, I don't think she wants to see To give
Speaker 3: you an example, you know, like I said earlier, I
Speaker 3: would really like to meet someone and have a family
Speaker 3: and feeling a lot of worry around that. And my
Speaker 3: sisters had this baby. I'm very happy for her that,
Speaker 3: you know, I'm feeling worried about myself. And I've heard
Speaker 3: my mum say things like I'm so so relieved or
Speaker 3: so happy to have a grandchild. And I just wonder
Speaker 3: to she ever wonder about what my emotional experience is
Speaker 3: at this time in my life, single in my late thirties,
Speaker 3: wanting to meet someone. Does she wonder? Does she ever
Speaker 3: think about it?
Speaker 1: Does your sister know how worried you are about this
Speaker 1: and how lonely it is not having a partner right now.
Speaker 3: I've maybe touched on this with my sister. We haven't
Speaker 3: gone very deep into it. Sort of want to respect
Speaker 3: happiness with our own situation. God knows she deserves it.
Speaker 1: Isn't it possible that this is both and that you
Speaker 1: can be happy for your sister and also be feeling worried, lonely,
Speaker 1: sad about the fact that you haven't found that yet.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm aware that's possible for those two things to coexist.
Speaker 2: One thing that you have to keep in mind is
Speaker 2: that when so many people have failed you so consistently
Speaker 2: over your life, it's very natural that even when you
Speaker 2: do find someone that you trust, like your sister, and
Speaker 2: you've prepared that relationship, and you still hold back a
Speaker 2: little bit because fully trusting is still scary. And it's
Speaker 2: also possible that you've been trained by your parents to
Speaker 2: first think about the needs and feelings of the other
Speaker 2: person before your own. So you're worried about, oh, she
Speaker 2: might experience that as you're saying that you're envious or something.
Speaker 2: And I think it's important with your sister, she's demonstrated
Speaker 2: that she can be there and she can hear it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, none of that had occurred to me, And I
Speaker 3: think you're right.
Speaker 1: I want to go back to your mom. What is
Speaker 1: it that you are hoping for in terms of your
Speaker 1: relationship with your mom at this point in your lives.
Speaker 3: That's the challenge that I'm struggling with because it's been
Speaker 3: quite an intense couple of years where I've kind of
Speaker 3: worked out what I was missing. I've been longing for
Speaker 3: and what I perhaps feel like I was owed that
Speaker 3: I didn't get. I don't know what to hope for.
Speaker 3: I know i'd ideally want from a relationship with my mother,
Speaker 3: but I don't know where to aim.
Speaker 1: You said something in your letter that I thought was
Speaker 1: really important. You said, should I even try to have
Speaker 1: this kind of relationship with her? Given her limitations? I
Speaker 1: thought that was a very important question, because I think
Speaker 1: when I ask what is it that you want with
Speaker 1: your mother, where you go is what do I want
Speaker 1: from the mother I should have had? So there's the
Speaker 1: mother you have and the mother you wish you had,
Speaker 1: and those are two different people, and you think you're
Speaker 1: finally coming to terms with the fact that those might
Speaker 1: be two different people. Some people spend their entire lives
Speaker 1: trying to make the mother that they have into the
Speaker 1: mother they wish they had, and they end up getting
Speaker 1: repeatedly injured in every interaction because they leave feeling un
Speaker 1: seen on, heard, invisible, not cared about, criticized, whatever it
Speaker 1: might be, over and over again. And I wonder how
Speaker 1: much grief work you've done around the fact that you
Speaker 1: might be able to get some things that are nourishing
Speaker 1: from your mom. If you're able to grieve the fact
Speaker 1: that she is not the mom you wished for, there
Speaker 1: might be things she can still offer you.
Speaker 3: No, I haven't done any grief work, and I think
Speaker 3: I'm in that exact place that you've just described, a
Speaker 3: feeling frustrated expectations and feeling kind of bruised by every interaction. Almost.
Speaker 1: It seems like with your father you were able to
Speaker 1: say these are his limitations, but with your mother that's harder.
Speaker 1: What is the difference for you in terms of the
Speaker 1: way that you've sort of accepted that your father struggles
Speaker 1: in the way that he does, but not really being
Speaker 1: able to accept that yet about your mom.
Speaker 3: He asks me questions about my life. He takes an interest.
Speaker 3: He tells me he's proud of me for things that
Speaker 3: are meaningful to me, like writing that I've done. I'm
Speaker 3: trying to carve out a new career as a writer,
Speaker 3: and he's made really nice comments about the things that
Speaker 3: I've done on that front.
Speaker 1: Does your mom know about this the writing?
Speaker 3: Yes, and doesn't show the interest that would mean a
Speaker 3: lot to me.
Speaker 2: Has she seen anything that you've written?
Speaker 3: Some things? I had a restaurant review in a magazine,
Speaker 3: like a big national magazine. I was quite excited about that,
Speaker 3: and my dad made a kind of big fuss about it,
Speaker 3: and my mom said she'd read it. But when I
Speaker 3: asked her later, what did you think of that bit
Speaker 3: about you? Because I'd referenced her in this article, she
Speaker 3: didn't seem to remember.
Speaker 1: Tell us what that was like for you that moment
Speaker 1: when you realized either she read it and didn't remember,
Speaker 1: or she really never read it, And especially because it
Speaker 1: was so personal it was something that you referenced about her,
Speaker 1: I feel.
Speaker 3: Like it touched a nerve and I've been in this
Speaker 3: place before, or feeling like I really see you and
Speaker 3: value you, my mother, And not only do you not
Speaker 3: see invalidate me, but when I'm doing it for you,
Speaker 3: so you seem to miss it.
Speaker 2: There are numerous ways in which you're still getting bruised,
Speaker 2: as you said, by your mom. If you're calling twice
Speaker 2: a week, she doesn't really need to because she's being
Speaker 2: pursued by you she likes, but every time you call
Speaker 2: and she doesn't, you get a little bruised as well.
Speaker 2: And so part of the problem currently with your mum
Speaker 2: is not just that you're not sure what are the
Speaker 2: terms of relationship you can have. But it's also that
Speaker 2: you're still getting bruised at the same time.
Speaker 3: That sounds spot on to me.
Speaker 1: Earlier, you said that she does have some good qualities.
Speaker 1: Can you tell us a little bit about those.
Speaker 3: She's had a career previously where she's been in psychiatric nursing.
Speaker 3: She's really good at looking after I can't believe I'm
Speaker 3: saying this. She can be very good at looking after
Speaker 3: very vulnerable people in certain contexts.
Speaker 1: What are the good qualities that she has that relate
Speaker 1: to you?
Speaker 3: Now I feel guilty having such a long pause.
Speaker 1: Is this Why do you feel guilty?
Speaker 3: Because I think she's fundamentally good person, and I feel
Speaker 3: bad not immediately being able to identify how she's good
Speaker 3: to me. I know she loves me, she's giving practical help.
Speaker 3: You know, she was welcomes me into her home.
Speaker 1: You know she loves you, because.
Speaker 3: I don't know. She hasn't really used that word. It's
Speaker 3: not really something we used in our family a lot.
Speaker 1: But she's never said I love you.
Speaker 3: She very rarely says I love you. I think she
Speaker 3: might write it in a birthday card. Sometimes she tells
Speaker 3: me she cares.
Speaker 1: About me, and that's how she says it, I care
Speaker 1: about you.
Speaker 3: She expresses that she cares for me. So I'm struggling here.
Speaker 1: And I see that. That's why I'm asking you these questions,
Speaker 1: because you have this idea that somehow, and it's probably true,
Speaker 1: that she loves you, but she has had great difficulty
Speaker 1: communicating that to you and communicating it in a way
Speaker 1: that feels loving. And so you're really scrounging here. I
Speaker 1: love you in a birthday card rarely, Otherwise you're trying
Speaker 1: to think of loving acts. You're saying, maybe she helped
Speaker 1: you practically, which is a way of showing love as well.
Speaker 1: And it's okay that you're being made aware in this
Speaker 1: conversation and specifically with this question of what her limitations are,
Speaker 1: so at the same time that we're looking at what
Speaker 1: she has to offer, it's also good to be aware
Speaker 1: of what she can't really offer, so that you don't get,
Speaker 1: as you said, bruised every time you don't get those things.
Speaker 2: And I think, Benny, that what makes it difficult and
Speaker 2: confusing for you is that seemingly she seems to be
Speaker 2: able to offer other people that which you wish she
Speaker 2: would offer you, she is really concerned about your sister's
Speaker 2: mental health. She has compassion for her patients who are
Speaker 2: struggling and suffering, and so you see those things and
Speaker 2: you go, Okay, well you have that. Why aren't I
Speaker 2: getting any of it? And I think that's the confusing part.
Speaker 3: That's very resonant. I think other people see her as
Speaker 3: a very kind, compassionate person, you know, people love my mother,
Speaker 3: and I think it was very confusing, and I think
Speaker 3: for a long time I sort of felt like there
Speaker 3: must be something without consciously thinking it, there must be
Speaker 3: something wrong with me as the one not getting this.
Speaker 2: Right, and that is very painful.
Speaker 1: Do you have any idea why your mom was more
Speaker 1: able to see what was going on with your sister
Speaker 1: and her pain and she has been able to see yours.
Speaker 3: I don't know. I think she was struggling herself. She
Speaker 3: was in a lot of financial distress when she was
Speaker 3: a single parent. She was worried about my sister. She
Speaker 3: was looking after her ex husband when he was in
Speaker 3: the depths of alcoholism in a very involved way, and
Speaker 3: maybe they just was in space and she couldn't face it.
Speaker 3: That was the sense I got, was, don't you dare
Speaker 3: give me anything else to worry about.
Speaker 2: And I think you heard that as a kid, and
Speaker 2: I think you complied. That's part of the thing that
Speaker 2: you are more resilient than your sister, that you don't
Speaker 2: want to have that narrative because in the family it
Speaker 2: got expressed. Well, if you are, then you have no
Speaker 2: feelings that we have to worry about, which obviously it's
Speaker 2: not the case. But I think you figured out really
Speaker 2: really young that taking yourself to the psychiatrist at seventeen
Speaker 2: by yourself, there's a real thread there with you of
Speaker 2: I'll take care of myself. You don't have to because
Speaker 2: I'm not getting it from you. And it's possible that
Speaker 2: that's what she was picking up on as well. You
Speaker 2: seem more self sufficient. You seem more like a wind
Speaker 2: up kid that you just let them loosen. They go.
Speaker 2: Now where they go was to the partying and all
Speaker 2: kinds of other distressing places. But I think that your
Speaker 2: sister probably came across as needing much more than you
Speaker 2: when you were younger.
Speaker 3: That sounds right, And I am very self sufficient, you know,
Speaker 3: I've been through a lot of really tough stuff and
Speaker 3: done a lot of it.
Speaker 2: Have you ever shared with her a vulnerability that wasn't
Speaker 2: about the relationship, sought her advice about something that wasn't
Speaker 2: about her, so she had clear runway to kind of
Speaker 2: in that way.
Speaker 3: When I'm feeling fragile. I've tended to avoid her for
Speaker 3: all the reasons we've covered. I ask her advice about
Speaker 3: low level stuff because I think it's a good way
Speaker 3: to bond with someone asking their advice. So I might
Speaker 3: talk to her about decorating.
Speaker 2: For example, Okay, and how does she do that? So
Speaker 2: she's happy to help. When it's about decorating, she's happy
Speaker 2: to help.
Speaker 1: Do you enjoy having that interaction with her? Or is
Speaker 1: it more strategic I'm going to do this because it
Speaker 1: gives us something to talk about. Or do you get
Speaker 1: something out of it?
Speaker 3: I don't get anything out of it emotionally necessarily, but
Speaker 3: I derive some I guess enjoyment from the fact with
Speaker 3: having a conversation that kind of is back and forth,
Speaker 3: like a more normal conversation for me. She's not in
Speaker 3: broadcast mode.
Speaker 1: Can I ask what you think might happen if you
Speaker 1: didn't call her twice a week. Would you feel lonelier?
Speaker 1: Would you have to sit with your grief a little
Speaker 1: bit more.
Speaker 3: I have taken breaks from her at times. What has
Speaker 3: it been like, honestly a relief. But the longer break
Speaker 3: was after one of those very difficult conversations that kind
Speaker 3: of went very badly.
Speaker 1: And then did you end up calling her to re
Speaker 1: establish contact or how did that happen?
Speaker 3: We reestablished contact because I had some health problems and
Speaker 3: she had VI in my sister, and I felt like
Speaker 3: it was the time to kind of let her back
Speaker 3: in because she was worried about me, and it was
Speaker 3: nice to have her interest and concern. Actually, but I
Speaker 3: do sometimes because I'm busy and because I think, let's
Speaker 3: see what happened, and so I don't call her that
Speaker 3: regularly all the time. I sometimes leave it and I
Speaker 3: just see, let's see if she makes an effort.
Speaker 2: And picks up the phone.
Speaker 3: She tends to send me a message and say when
Speaker 3: can we talk Melanie, And I tend to feel frustrated
Speaker 3: because I want to have the kind of relationship with
Speaker 3: my mother where we don't need to schedule times to
Speaker 3: call each other. And I'm they're thinking, oh, we're close
Speaker 3: enough that you can just pick up the phone if
Speaker 3: it's a bad time. I'll just say it's a bad time.
Speaker 3: I tried to say these kinds of things, so but
Speaker 3: she will do the same thing every time. Which is
Speaker 3: this very cautious text.
Speaker 1: Message You've actually told her, I would love for you
Speaker 1: to just call me when you feel like calling me.
Speaker 3: I maybe haven't said that I would love it. I've
Speaker 3: said you can, And maybe that's an important difference it is.
Speaker 1: I'm thinking about what is it that you want at
Speaker 1: this point from the mother that you have that would
Speaker 1: feel good or nourishing. It might not be what you
Speaker 1: had hoped for all these years, but she still is there,
Speaker 1: and it sounds like there are some aspects of being
Speaker 1: in contact with her that could potentially feel good to you.
Speaker 1: What do you think those are?
Speaker 3: I would say just a little bit more of her
Speaker 3: attention when I'm with her. I don't expect like a
Speaker 3: total change of personality, but just a little bit more presence.
Speaker 3: If I make the effort to go and visit her,
Speaker 3: which is a day's travel, I'm there because I want
Speaker 3: to connect with her, and if she could just stay
Speaker 3: with me for a little bit longer and have a
Speaker 3: conversation and not be flapping around the house doing sure
Speaker 3: is doing Sometimes it feels like doing anything else other
Speaker 3: than sitting and catching up with me.
Speaker 1: What if there's not a change in her but a
Speaker 1: change in you.
Speaker 3: That is where I get stuck because that just isn't
Speaker 3: a meaningful relationship to me. I don't seek out those
Speaker 3: kinds of friendships, but there's not connection.
Speaker 1: Well, I think when we talk about meaningful one thing
Speaker 1: that has been missing has been authenticity. That you haven't
Speaker 1: been able to show up with the truth of who
Speaker 1: you are, and when you do, she falls to pieces.
Speaker 1: That's seen on the beach. But what if you showed
Speaker 1: up authentically and there was a change in you, not
Speaker 1: expecting anything to happen differently with her, so that if
Speaker 1: she falls to pieces, you don't have to put her
Speaker 1: back together. What if you became more confident in your
Speaker 1: truth because you're doing that with your sister, it sounds
Speaker 1: like you're doing that in the relationships that you're pursuing
Speaker 1: now that that becomes your mode of being in the world,
Speaker 1: and that with your mom. You're not expecting her to
Speaker 1: have a personality transplant, but you're showing up differently knowing
Speaker 1: that she might or might not be capable of doing
Speaker 1: something different. But that you're not depending on it. What
Speaker 1: you are depending on is that you're going to do
Speaker 1: something different, That all of these patterns that you still
Speaker 1: have around her you're not going to uphold anymore because
Speaker 1: they're not nourishing for you to be that way, to
Speaker 1: be inauthentic, to hold back, to be invisible, That you're
Speaker 1: not going to be invisible anymore, and she can do
Speaker 1: without whatever she will, but you're not responsible for her feelings.
Speaker 1: That your visibility you've focused on her.
Speaker 3: That sounds like something I would want to aim for.
Speaker 3: I find when I'm in her home particularly, it's such
Speaker 3: a knee jerk reaction with me that I feel like
Speaker 3: I can't control it. I feel rejected and I withdraw.
Speaker 2: What happens when just you and her? If that happens,
Speaker 2: go out for coffee, so she's sitting down, she can't
Speaker 2: start busying herself with other things. She's sitting down facing
Speaker 2: you for a chat. Does that ever happen? Do you
Speaker 2: get more of attention when it does? If you do
Speaker 2: that rather than sit in her house where she can
Speaker 2: find a thousand things to busy yourself with.
Speaker 3: It is better. And for that reason, I've tried to
Speaker 3: reduce the number of times I'm visiting her and encourage
Speaker 3: her to come and visit me and then go for
Speaker 3: coffees and meals and things in it is better. She
Speaker 3: visited me a while ago and we had just really
Speaker 3: horrible conversation, but before that we'd gone to this museum
Speaker 3: that was a lot of fun and you know, we
Speaker 3: were laughing.
Speaker 1: So you can have fun with her.
Speaker 3: I can have fun with her.
Speaker 1: So, Melanie, we have some advice for you, and we're
Speaker 1: going to start off with your mom. One thing that
Speaker 1: we talked about today was not about changing her, but
Speaker 1: about changing you and how you react to her. And
Speaker 1: one of the things that you've struggled with your whole
Speaker 1: life has been showing up authentically because either you would
Speaker 1: get hurt because you would get ignored, the subject would change,
Speaker 1: you wouldn't get paid attention to, you would get a
Speaker 1: factual question instead of an experience or feelings question, or
Speaker 1: more recently, your mom would fall to pieces or get defensive.
Speaker 1: All of those things might still happen, but we want
Speaker 1: you to show up authentically anyway, because you get hurt
Speaker 1: by not showing up. So you're already getting hurt, and
Speaker 1: I know you're trying to protect yourself, but in protecting yourself,
Speaker 1: you're actually doing the hurting. Because it's not protective. You
Speaker 1: then feel lonely, abandoned all of those feelings. So we
Speaker 1: want you to be able to just be yourself. And
Speaker 1: it sounds like you're able to do that more with
Speaker 1: your sister, but we want you to do that with
Speaker 1: your mom as well. And part of that is going
Speaker 1: to involve when your mom says, how's work, you can
Speaker 1: tell her how work is, and you can say and
Speaker 1: I'm also trying to date and I'm feeling really lonely
Speaker 1: and I'm kind of worried about whether I'm going to
Speaker 1: meet someone. And if she changes the subject, you can say, hey, Mom,
Speaker 1: I really wish that I could talk to you about this.
Speaker 1: When she texts you and says when can we talk,
Speaker 1: you can actually say to her. We talked about this
Speaker 1: distinction today, about the difference between you can call me anytime,
Speaker 1: and I would really like it if you would just
Speaker 1: call me. That would feel really good. I would love
Speaker 1: to hear from you. I would love to know that
Speaker 1: you're thinking about me. So all of these things that
Speaker 1: you're not saying, we would like you to say, and
Speaker 1: not worry about whether she's going to get defensive or
Speaker 1: not respond in a way that feels nourishing to you,
Speaker 1: or she's going to fall to pieces. If she does
Speaker 1: fall to pieces, you can say, hey, Mom, it sounds
Speaker 1: like you're not able to really talk about this right now,
Speaker 1: so let's talk another time. And then you go take
Speaker 1: a walk, you do yoga, you breathe, you call a friend,
Speaker 1: you do whatever feels nourishing to you, without worrying about
Speaker 1: my mom's falling to pieces and I didn't put her
Speaker 1: back together. So we want you to try that in
Speaker 1: your interactions with her this week. We want you to
Speaker 1: be different, not expecting anything. And then here's the other part.
Speaker 1: While you're doing that, we want you to notice any
Speaker 1: moments of joy or even just fun that come up.
Speaker 1: So with your dad, it was really nice when he
Speaker 1: could join with you around your writing, even though you
Speaker 1: have no expectations that he's going to connect with you
Speaker 1: emotionally in the ways that you wish that he would.
Speaker 1: With your mom, even with that example where you said
Speaker 1: at the museum you had fun. Whatever it is where
Speaker 1: there are these moments where there is something that feels good,
Speaker 1: where I feel like I'm glad that I'm talking to
Speaker 1: my mom. We want you to notice them, and we
Speaker 1: want you to write them down, and we want you
Speaker 1: to keep a journal. We just want you to start
Speaker 1: looking for those a little bit more, and we think
Speaker 1: you're going to see them a little bit more when
Speaker 1: you're not being disappointed by her reaction. And to be clear,
Speaker 1: you're always going to be disappointed by it. It's always
Speaker 1: going to hurt, but it won't feel as sharp when
Speaker 1: you are showing up from the adult place as opposed
Speaker 1: to the wounded child place. And along with that, we
Speaker 1: would like you to do some grief work, because you're
Speaker 1: going to have to contend with the fact that your
Speaker 1: mom is who she is and that you did not
Speaker 1: get and probably will not get the kind of mothering
Speaker 1: that you would have hoped for. There are groups for
Speaker 1: this kind of loss. You can find them and maybe
Speaker 1: join with other people who have had similar experiences, so
Speaker 1: that you can really kind of let go of those
Speaker 1: expectations by grieving it, not by shutting it down or
Speaker 1: compartmentalizing it, which is what you've done, or drugs that
Speaker 1: you used to do, or the not eating all the
Speaker 1: ways that you tried to deal with it. We want
Speaker 1: you to deal with it head on by really going
Speaker 1: into that sadness and that grief so that you're able
Speaker 1: to let it go more gently.
Speaker 2: Two other quick parts. Number one, with your sister, we
Speaker 2: would like you to have a chat with her this week,
Speaker 2: and you're feeling stressed about being able to find someone,
Speaker 2: and you really want to find someone and kind of
Speaker 2: share that with her. We think that you've gotten so
Speaker 2: much closer and there's still a little bit more closeness
Speaker 2: that you can have with her, because even with her,
Speaker 2: you're holding back a bit that again that habit from
Speaker 2: childhood of I can manage me. I don't have to
Speaker 2: mean on anyone that there's still some more to unwind
Speaker 2: there With your sister, so she knows how you feel,
Speaker 2: and maybe she realizes that, but it's different for you
Speaker 2: to be able to say it and for her to
Speaker 2: be able to hear it and respond hopefully in a
Speaker 2: compassionate way. The last thing we'd like you to do.
Speaker 2: We'd like you to do because we think it would
Speaker 2: be really good if you could find other women, even
Speaker 2: maybe slightly older women, who you could have friendships with
Speaker 2: and get that experience, the one that you really never
Speaker 2: had quite with your mom, and we think one of
Speaker 2: the best ways for you to do that is to
Speaker 2: find and join a women's writing group. You're trying to
Speaker 2: become a writer. Writers need that support regardless, and get
Speaker 2: to know the people in the group because people do
Speaker 2: get friendly and close in a group. Your writing is
Speaker 2: often very personal and you're sharing personal things, so would
Speaker 2: like you to do that as well to validate the
Speaker 2: new endeavor and to perhaps create the possibility of new
Speaker 2: relationships of people that you can show up to authentically.
Speaker 3: It's a really nice idea.
Speaker 2: I can do that, and remember the bar for success
Speaker 2: is you showing up authentically, not how your mom responds,
Speaker 2: just how you do.
Speaker 1: We want you to treat yourself the way that you
Speaker 1: were not treated growing up. We want you to treat
Speaker 1: yourself with openness and compassion and kindness and authenticity. The
Speaker 1: more you treat yourself that way, the more that's going
Speaker 1: to be the people that you surround yourself with. And
Speaker 1: if you can do it with your mom without the expectations,
Speaker 1: you will be able to do it with other people
Speaker 1: where there are expectations and they do meet them.
Speaker 3: That makes sense.
Speaker 2: We really look forward to hearing how this goes for
Speaker 2: you and how it feels to you to show up authentically.
Speaker 3: Thank you, and thank you guys very much for your advice.
Speaker 2: What I thought was really impressive about Melanie is that
Speaker 2: she has already started this journey a couple of years
Speaker 2: ago and has already made significant progress. She's challenging herself
Speaker 2: in all kinds of ways, she's trying to set standards
Speaker 2: in her dating, and she's really trying to recover from
Speaker 2: this very, very difficult childhood and that I think the
Speaker 2: missing piece has been so far this relationship with her mother.
Speaker 2: So I'm really hopeful that this helps her because I
Speaker 2: think she's been working on herself in all kinds of ways,
Speaker 2: and I think this would really be the last piece
Speaker 2: that she needs to really start tackling.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 1: And when you say the relationship with her mother, I
Speaker 1: think what we're both talking about is really her relationship
Speaker 1: with herself. Being able to grieve the relationship with the
Speaker 1: mother and be able to be there for herself in
Speaker 1: a way that her mother is not able to be
Speaker 1: there for her, and then to also free herself up
Speaker 1: to enjoy the aspects of that relationship so that she
Speaker 1: does get something from that relationship, but she'll get the
Speaker 1: much deeper nourishment from her other relationships that we are
Speaker 1: encouraging her to pursue as well.
Speaker 2: You're listening to THEO therapists. We'll be back after a
Speaker 2: short break.
Speaker 1: So we heard back from Melanie and here's what happened
Speaker 1: with her this week.
Speaker 4: Hi, Laurie and Guy. So I have a quick update
Speaker 4: for you. I will just start writing with the authenticity
Speaker 4: because that felt like the most important aspect of it
Speaker 4: to me. I had a call with my sister and
Speaker 4: I guess I kind of warmed up by sharing some
Speaker 4: of my emotional experience around health problems I've had recently,
Speaker 4: which have been very stressful and times I've been quite
Speaker 4: upset and worried, and I think normally I realized I
Speaker 4: would really kind of gloss over this, and I didn't,
Speaker 4: and I shared it. And I also told her about
Speaker 4: the loneliness thing and worrying about whether I'll meet someone
Speaker 4: again for a relationship. So that felt good, and in response,
Speaker 4: she opened up a bit more to me in that core.
Speaker 4: So I wanted to say thank you for bringing that
Speaker 4: to my attention that relationship could be further improved, because
Speaker 4: it's really important to me. I've also been working on
Speaker 4: it with my mum. I had a call with her
Speaker 4: and I also shared this thing about feeling lonely and
Speaker 4: increasingly lonely over the last year and wanting to meet someone,
Speaker 4: and she said some things that were pretty comforting. Actually
Speaker 4: they were fairly generic things, but it's the kind of
Speaker 4: thing I like to hear on this issue, so that
Speaker 4: was good too. Again, I've noticed on being more tack
Speaker 4: in other areas. So today, for example, I initiated a
Speaker 4: difficult conversation with my manager at work that i'd been
Speaker 4: putting off for a while. And there is something I'm
Speaker 4: thinking about with my dad as well. He's supposed to
Speaker 4: be visiting me when I go to Europe for a
Speaker 4: couple of months next week, and I've just had it
Speaker 4: in my head that I really don't like being around
Speaker 4: him when he's drinking. He can get a bit melancholy
Speaker 4: and I don't like it. I mean, I'm not sure
Speaker 4: I'm going to actually say anything to him, but I've
Speaker 4: just said to myself, I'm not going to pretend to
Speaker 4: enjoy that anymore, and I'm not going to kind of
Speaker 4: sit around and watch it. And I think that is
Speaker 4: more authentic. So I think I feel good. I feel
Speaker 4: more optimistic, and I'm going to keep going. The grief
Speaker 4: work and the women's group. I'm just going to put
Speaker 4: on hold for a couple of months while I have
Speaker 4: this nice trip to Italy, but I I've looked at
Speaker 4: groups and I will schedule that for when i'm back.
Speaker 4: Thank you. I really am so grateful for the time
Speaker 4: that you gave me under your advice.
Speaker 1: What struck me about Melanie is that she's wanted for
Speaker 1: so long to have an authentic relationship with the people
Speaker 1: in her family, and within the span of a week,
Speaker 1: she took some great risks and actually got some great
Speaker 1: reward for taking those risks. I agree.
Speaker 2: And the fact that she generalized our advice to do
Speaker 2: that at work as well just shows how much you
Speaker 2: really got that. I do hope she speaks up though,
Speaker 2: to her dad when she's on holiday and when he's
Speaker 2: there and if he's drinking. She has the awareness right now,
Speaker 2: she says, I don't have to be present for it,
Speaker 2: but I really hope she'll find the gumption to voice something,
Speaker 2: because I think that would be very much in line
Speaker 2: with what we're asking her to do.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you could hear there's some kind of shift
Speaker 1: going on inside of her. You can hear it in
Speaker 1: the way that she talked about these experiences. I love
Speaker 1: that her sister opened up to her as well, when
Speaker 1: she opened up to her sister, and I like too
Speaker 1: that she got some comfort from her mom. Maybe it
Speaker 1: isn't the perfect response, but it did offer her some comfort,
Speaker 1: and again it was a first conversation. There's so much
Speaker 1: room for this to grow. When she shows up as
Speaker 1: her true self, it gives her so much more power
Speaker 1: and so much more flexibility in all of these relationships.
Speaker 1: So I agree with you. I hope she does this
Speaker 1: with her father as well. And I do hope that
Speaker 1: she joins a writing group with women, because I think
Speaker 1: that that will give her even more places to practice
Speaker 1: this authenticity and to do something that feels authentic to her,
Speaker 1: which is writing. So for a weeks of science, I
Speaker 1: think she did magnificently and I think that she is
Speaker 1: on the path to do so much more. Next week,
Speaker 1: we're in session with Anna and Chris, a young married
Speaker 1: couple who came to us after Anna, who was pregnant
Speaker 1: with their first child, discovered that Chris had been lying
Speaker 1: to her.
Speaker 5: Well, they see tons and tons of messages to this
Speaker 5: worker being asking things.
Speaker 3: Like hellis your day?
Speaker 5: Wow? Yes, it was platonic technically for me, it was
Speaker 5: still hurtful because it felt like there is some sort
Speaker 5: of emotional void being filled by talking to her.
Speaker 1: If you're enjoying our podcast, don't forget to subscribe for
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Speaker 2: If you have a dilemma you'd like to discuss with us,
Speaker 2: email us at Laurie and Guy at iHeartMedia dot com.
Speaker 2: Executive producer is Noel Brown. We are produced and edited
Speaker 2: by Josh Fisher. Additional editing support by Helena Rosen, John
Speaker 2: Washington and Zachary Fisher. Our interns are Ben Bernstein, Emily
Speaker 2: Gutierrez and Silver Lifton. And special thanks to our podcast
Speaker 2: Fairy Godmother Katie Curic. We can't wait to see you
Speaker 2: at our next session. Deotherrapist is a production of iHeartRadio